Alcohol without the hangover – scientists are finding ways

https://www.wsj.com/articles/synthetic-alcohol-no-hangover-511fc418

by meany • 3 years ago

140 272 3 years ago

Spivak• 3 years ago

Smart to frame it as synthetic alcohol instead of as a drug because the US has decided that substances that make you feel good are tools of the devil.

The one that really gets me is pain killers. I had to recover from surgery in the hospital for a few days where I couldn't do anything but lay there and focus on the pain. The only thing they we're allowed to give me was Tramadol which I can only describe as "it doesn't make any of the pain go away, it increases your ability to put up with it." The doctors know it's shit, the nurses know it's shit, they were apologizing constantly about it. We had all the tools available to make me not suffer at all during the experience but think that "getting high" is so terribly evil it's worth suffering for.

Nursie3• 3 years ago

Same in the UK where this lot are based. It’s likely to be banned as soon as the active ingredient is revealed IMHO.

thumbuddy4• 3 years ago

The war on drugs has done incredible damage to chronically ill, and patients suffering severely. The amount of relief patients could get from debilitating pain was far better in the 1800s than it is today.

People often end up rehospitalized or denied care entirely because their pain or anxiety goes unmanaged or because they "might maybe be drug seekers".

Our current laws have fast tracked ordinary people to heroin or otherwise dealers. Difficult to imagine that wasn't part of the point of them...

pharmakom• 3 years ago

Substances that make you feel good are for the elite youth when attending Harvard, Yale, Oxford, … not for the regular joe.

foota• 3 years ago

My impression is that this (the difficulty of getting painkillers) was mostly driven by the opioid epidemic, is that wrong?

bluefishinit2• 3 years ago

I love my IPAs but I have to admit that the UK does social beer right. 3% or even 2.5% ales are the way to go if you want to socially drink. We have a concept of a "session" beer in the US, which is lower ABV but the selection of really good, really low gravity beers is the best in the UK as far as I can tell.

eterps• 3 years ago

3% or even 2.5% ales

I am not familiar with those, can someone give some examples of these types of beers?

sam_lowry_• 3 years ago

This is close to home-brewed kefir.

flir• 3 years ago

I can't, and I'm in the UK. Even UK-brewed Fosters, widely conidered to be flavoured water, is 3.7%.

bluefishinit2• 3 years ago

The brown ales can be very low gravity. Usually you get low gravity stuff from a cask. I've had lighter ales that are really low too, but I think they are hard to find.

https://learn.kegerator.com/london-brown-ale/

alasdairking• 3 years ago

Yeah, this is like "pints of mild" in 1980s old man pubs in the North. I am skeptical such beers exist now in any mainstream pub or bar.

rconti• 3 years ago

Freewheel Brewing here in the SF Bay Area (Redwood City, to be specific, 1 block from my house to be much more specific to many fewer people) specializes in cask ales. Many of their beers are in the 4% range, and I love being able to get beer in an imperial pint.

Their London Calling is 3.5%.

http://freewheelbrewing.com/?p=312

Helmut100013• 3 years ago

I really like Full Sail Session IPA, every time I visit the US I get some. Germany is really lacking behind this hole development, the beer is just very poor these days here.

fileeditview• 3 years ago

What are you talking about? Even most common supermarkets have a small variety of IPAs and other craft beers. And even without them there are small breweries everywhere in southern Germany which have great "classical" beers..

wheels• 3 years ago

Crew Republic, one of the biggest German craft beer producers, makes a session IPA.

reaperman2• 3 years ago

Belgium produces many incredible beers that outshine American beers and should be easily found in Germany. I’m a massive fan of American beers but Belgium always gets my voice of support as well.

walthamstow• 3 years ago

Londoner here. These beers exist and are part of the historic English beer tradition but are few and far between in city pubs these days. Pubs have started to stock Radlers like Schofferhoffer which is my go to, or a half pint (284ml/~10oz) of a strong beer like IPA.

rcarr2• 3 years ago

This. You used to be able to get a few "session ales" in pubs which were under 4% and meant for long drinking sessions, now because of the rise of craft beer you're lucky if you get one. Meanwhile, there's always a ton of options over 5.5% which used to be unheard of.

quaffapint• 3 years ago

I have been on the hunt for the past year in the mid-atlantic area of the US looking for <4% beers. The closest I've come is a German grapefruit beer (Schöfferhofer), but it doesn't really have that beer taste. Most US 'light' beers are around 4-4.2%.

Moosehead for example makes a Moosehead Light for the states at 4%, but they also offer Cracked Canoe which is only 3.2% but not sold in the states (available in the Canada, UK and Costa Rica of all places where I tried it).

slenk• 3 years ago

Founders All Day IPA is like 4% if you can find it

gdprrrr• 3 years ago

Here in Germany, it's common to mix beer and sprite 50:50 for a 2,5% drink. It keeps more of the beer taste than you'd think.

yCombLinks• 3 years ago

I drink miller 64. It's 2.8%. I like it, very light.

soligern3• 3 years ago

What are you talking about? Almost all Pilsners and lagers, even from craft breweries come in under 4%

gilbetron• 3 years ago

Bell’s Brewery Light Hearted Ale is 3.7% and pretty tasty! They got bought up by a larger brand, so should be pretty available throughout the US.

shaftoe444• 3 years ago

In theory yes but the problem is many people here (England) end up picking the session beers and then drinking 10 of them.

drcongo• 3 years ago

...before moving on to the stronger ones.

gniv3• 3 years ago

I was first introduced to 3% beer in Norway. It was crazy expensive (due to taxes on alcohol) and really good. I was disappointed that I couldn't find anything similar in the US.

nicholasbraker• 3 years ago

I'm in Sweden on vacation now (and still binging HN..) and they have 3,5% variants of most major brand of beers like Carlsberg, Heineken and others, It's great! It tastes like a real beer, but without the buzz I usually get after a six-pack.

danielfoster• 3 years ago

That’s a shame to hear. While I understand why Norway taxes alcohol, placing such high taxes on a low-alcohol alternative encourages purchase of higher alcohol options in the same product category.

Ideally low alchol beer would have a mild tax discount to encourage sustainable consumption.

m0llusk• 3 years ago

There is currently a big surge in low alcohol concentration brewing with a range of new options available. You should check out distributors for more. I find many options at Whole Foods so this stuff must be approaching the mainstream.

momirlan2• 3 years ago

i went to a shop in Norway, and the assistant was very helpful, telling me all about the local beers on the shelves. i got my picks and went to the checkout. he's waiting for me, and with a straight face says "I can't sell you beer, it's past 6PM".

13of40• 3 years ago

I visited the Dominican Republic several years ago, and at the all inclusive free beer stand people were getting glasses of 50% El Presidente pilsner and 50% soda water. To me that was a little bit alien, because it implies they like the taste of beer.

Nursie3• 3 years ago

Here in Australia there is a distinct section of the market for ‘Mid’ beers at about 3-3.5%, and decent beer places usually have one available. Often brown ales, though there are lagers, pales etc too.

Makes a nice change of pace. Plus you can usually have one (and just one) and still drive.

swalling• 3 years ago

This exists in the US too, it’s called Coors Light (4%). It just tastes like donkey piss.

hash872• 3 years ago

Wasn't synthetic alcohol part of the Star Trek mythos? It's been a long time since I've watched TNG but I seem to remember it was part of their world, at one point I have a vague memory of someone handing Picard a bottle of 'real' alcohol and him being amazed- 'this is the real stuff??' he asks? Or something to that effect.

Maybe that's what Guinan was always serving at the Enterprise 'bar', synthetic alcohol. (Does Data ingest it? Can he?)

AuryGlenz• 3 years ago

Synthehol. It’s never really fully explained how it affects you other than you can kind of readily shake it off.

There are plenty of instances in Star Trek of people drinking the real stuff though. Picard himself had a family winery. I’m guessing he was amazed at a bottle of Romulan Ale, which was illegal in the same way Cuban cigars were here.

ben_w• 3 years ago

In the show, Romulan Ale is also extremely strong; Worf nurses a hangover from it and says it "should be illegal" and LaForge replies "It is"; while in DS9 several of the human main cast infiltrated a Klingon event and had to take something to avoid dying from drinking so much Blood Wine.

(That said, I don't know if it's been canonically stated Blood Wine is ethanol based, so future writers might just decide that's because Blood Wine is based on methanol rather than ethanol, and the ABV is unsurprising…)

thumbuddy4• 3 years ago

So synthesized ethanol will be the same in every respect as purified naturally sourced ethanol except perhaps down to the balance of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen isotopes.

But yes startrek was/awesome regardless.

veilrap• 3 years ago

I’m pretty sure “Synthol” in Star Trek is more of a synthetic alcohol alternative of unspecified chemical composition, rather than just synthetic alcohol.

StrictDabbler• 3 years ago

You might be half-remembering the TNG episode "Relics" in which Scotty is rescued from a Dyson sphere after seventy-five years in a transporter buffer.

Scotty demands, and eventually obtains from Guinan, an actual bottle of Aldebaran whiskey. He has the holodeck recreate the bridge of the original Enterprise and drinks the whiskey there.

Picard shows up, Scotty offers Picard the bottle, then at the last moment warns him that it's real alcohol. Picard responds "I know, who do you think gave it to Guinan?"

1ba9115454• 3 years ago

I've switched to alcohol free beers. They're a bit sweeter but for me it's fine.

eatonphil• 3 years ago

Likewise! I'm trying not to drink much anymore. But I always want something cold and fizzy. So it's a switch between refrigerated carafes of water, seltzer, and zero-alcohol beers. Although I feel incentivized not to have even the zero-alcohol beers since it's still 60 calories. While the seltzers I find are 0.

Any beer recommendations? I haven't tried much outside of the locally-supplied zero-alcohol Heineken and Corona.

defphysics• 3 years ago

My favorite is Run Wild from Athletic Brewing Co.

gniv3• 3 years ago

Any beer recommendations?

Where? In eastern US, Athletic Brewing makes really good hoppy ales. The ones from Brooklyn Brewery are good too, but a bit heavy for my taste.

In continental Europe, Germany has a large selection of lagers, good but not great. Clausthaler is an example. Also, I like the Czech beer Staropramen.

cota• 3 years ago

Asahi Dry Zero has 0 alcohol, 0 calories.

archi422• 3 years ago

The Bitburger NA with the blue branding is good. Don't be fooled if you don't like the normal Bitburger, imho their NA is much better :P OTOH, if you happen to like Bitburger, they also have a newer "dry NA" variant with green branding, that tastes much more like their alcoholic beer. No idea about international availability, but at least a slight chance.

For wheat beer, the bigger German what beer breweries offer a NA variant these days, and those are quite good. I'm thinking of Erdinger and Paulaner, which are probably your best bet internationally. Don't tell anyone I know, but my secret recommendation however is Öttinger NA wheat beer. Those are cheap and taste very good (fellow Germans: If you don't believe me, do a blind tasting). But don't ever the mistake of buying or even drinking their normal Pilsner/Export beer - those taste like pi... ;-)

If you're ever in Germany, is "Mönchshof Radler Alkoholfrei". Radler is "shandy", a mixture of beer and lemonade. I've yet to meet anyone who likes beer but not this.

dgb23• 3 years ago

I like drinking a beer or two sometimes during the week. It’s tasty, cool and calming. Alcohol free beer is great for that.

However most alcohol free beers don’t taste nice. Takes a bit of shopping around to find a brand that doesn’t taste like Ovomaltine.

thehappypm2• 3 years ago

Brew Dog is great

ChatGTP2• 3 years ago

You might already know this but a lot of no-alcohol beers are also low or no carb and they contain artificial sweetener to make them test better.

I been having no-alcohol beer with some sugar in it (93 cals a bottle). It's way way more tasty.

nprateem• 3 years ago

I checked the sugar content of one the other day and it was like 12% sugar or something ridiculous.

jebarker4• 3 years ago

Yeah, the average NA beer appears to have the equivalent of about 3 teaspoons of sugar. So about the same as regular beer.

moribvndvs• 3 years ago

So far, my favorite has been Guinness’ NA. It’s _almost_ imperceptible from the normal canned draught. My only real hangup with it is the extra plastic waste via the widget.

jebarker4• 3 years ago

I really like the Guinness NA too. But I heard someone say it had a hint of BBQ sauce to it and now I can't help but taste that when I drink it!

jmspring• 3 years ago

Another vote for Guinness NA. Mikkeller also makes good NA beers, but pricey at $24/6 pack.

andrewl• 3 years ago

It looks interesting. There’s a good bit of information, and marketing, of course, at gabalabs.com.

SomeRndName112• 3 years ago

Alcohol is the most boring psychoactive substance ever, even Benadryl is more fun. I really do not understand those who enjoy the experience.

popularrecluse• 3 years ago

cool

dragonmost• 3 years ago

Am I wrong? No it's the other people that are wrong

pr0zac• 3 years ago

You shouldn't assume the effects you get match those of other people. People experience different effects because of differences in brain/body chemistry and genetics. People that get "asian flush" for instance process alcohol in a way that results in more toxic metabolites thus making alcohol literally more poisonous and less enjoyable for them.

Holds true for other substances as well. My brother absolutely loves weed and finds it relaxing but I cannot use even a small amount without crippling levels of anxiety. Meanwhile anything that works on GABA (alcohol included) completely removes anxiety for me in a way that's so enjoyable I have to be careful with the whole class of substances. Because of a genetic quirk modafinil has little to no effect if I take it but I use prescribed amphetamines 3-5 days a week. Human bodies are complicated!

SomeRndName112• 3 years ago

Precisely. Most people "enjoy" alcohol because it is socially accepted drug, but for many people so many other substances would be a lot more enjoyable, without collateral damage of alcohol for society. Alcohol is a poor choice for recreational drug for many, for the exceptions those who likes depressants.

xmddmx• 3 years ago

Are you Italian?

I was shocked, about 15 years ago when some Italian friends (who were very drug familiar) said how much they liked that they could buy Benadryl (diphenhydramine) w/o a prescription here in the USA.

I was like "????*" this is not a party drug.

(note: there are folks who use it in massive overdoses as an ACh deliriant [1] but that's not my cup of tea)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliriant

bratgpttamer• 3 years ago

I read something a while back where the owner/CEO/VP/Head Brewer of Sam Adams, who was expected to go to certain beer/brewing events and basically have a beer with each vendor, would eat a packet of yeast beforehand.

He claimed it allowed him to make his rounds and sample everyone's beer without getting drunk/hungover.

distortionfield• 3 years ago

Whoa, I had never heard of this before but there seems to be something to this.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/07/10/327854051/al...

jrmg• 3 years ago

The article at that link seems to show there’s _not_ something to it - it doesn’t work.

thumbuddy4• 3 years ago

I can't imagine a mechanism where that's plausible, but it wouldn't be the first time I felt that way and was shown something surprising. He probably just built up a tolerance.

danwilkerson• 3 years ago

Sadly, debunked:

https://www.mashed.com/439154/can-eating-yeast-really-preven....

yuppie_scum• 3 years ago

I used to see Jim Koch at those events and he’d be pretty lit up.

znpy• 3 years ago

That doesn’t really make sense. Yeasts consume sugars and emit alcohol and co2 ad byproducts. They can’t process alcohol and too much alcohol kills the yeasts.

If anything, eating yeasts should make things worse, as yeasts might have a chance to digest some sugars and produce more alcohol (unlikely to happen, if you ask me)

rdn2• 3 years ago

Looks like a rebranding of GHB

chasebank• 3 years ago

I think you're right. I've always wondered why they don't water down GHB to be the equivalent of a low ABV drink. The only scary thing about GHB is its relative potency to volume. It's honestly a wonderful drug.

GordonS• 3 years ago

Didn't David Nutt suggest this several years back? I seem to recall hearing he was really trying to make a go of it too.

rdn2• 3 years ago

It is a pretty nice alternative to alcohol, and since their name is GABA Labs, and GHB can be synthesized from GABA, I assume they will be selling some analog or even rebranding and packaging GHB properly for consumption.

BrianHenryIE• 3 years ago

I presume it's down to the "therapeutic index" (how close a fun dose is to a dangerous dose) (although alcohol is much the same).

I agree it is a nice drug but one friend of mine did have his family stage an intervention because of his abuse of it.

tsol2• 3 years ago

It's very addictive and can cause a strong dependence/withdrawal, thats why it's rarely used

spacemadness• 3 years ago

The more interesting thing here to me is the nasal spray that can supposedly help alcoholics want to drink less. That could help a lot of people stay sober-ish if it’s effective, albeit there is a psychological component to just wanting to enter oblivion that it might not be effective for.

Out of curiosity I tried the hangover cure on Nootropics Depot and found it to not really help at all. Not drinking helps the most so I stick with that normally these days.

yawnbox• 3 years ago

Acetaldehyde (from consuming alcoholic beverages)(1) is a Group 1 carcinogen, along with things like Asbestos. Does it fix that?

[1] https://www.cancer.org/cancer/risk-prevention/understanding-...

zaphod420• 3 years ago

I've been taking zbiotic before drinking. It's a probiotic that eats the Acetaldehyde. It works surprisingly well!

AndrewKemendo3• 3 years ago

Yes and...

This is not ambiguous: There is no safe amount that does not affect health.[1]

"We cannot talk about a so-called safe level of alcohol use. It doesn’t matter how much you drink – the risk to the drinker’s health starts from the first drop of any alcoholic beverage. The only thing that we can say for sure is that the more you drink, the more harmful it is – or, in other words, the less you drink, the safer it is,"

It is possible that a totally sober and mentally healthy person can determine that the benefits of alcohol counterbalance the health risks. I've heard a dozen meandering explanations here and they all boil down to "I like it and it seems to be helping my life more than hurting it." That seems reasonable.

However not everyone has the same risk profile, or even the same moral grounding, so demonstrating to others that there are few relative risks to alcohol consumption or not (based on your personal threat model) biases the threat models of others.

It helps nothing to continue to reject some of the strongest correlations we have and risks imbuing incorrect epistemic biases to others via demonstration. Accept the fact that you are taking a risk instead of trying to brush off the scientific consensus and be vocal about the risks given the fact that this literature is not accessible to most people.

[1]https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/04-01-2023-no-level-of-...

maxerickson• 3 years ago

In an absolute sense, it also isn't safe to take a sip of water.

archagon• 3 years ago

I feel like these kinds of statements are not very helpful. Knowing that even a single drop of alcohol is harmful without calibrating that risk does not give me enough information to alter my behavior. Fermented foods are inherently a bit alcoholic; does eating them mean I'm doomed? If not, then at what point does imbibing alcohol turn into a real health hazard? What are the risks compared to, say, eating prosciutto or grilled meats?

aeternum• 3 years ago

This is based off a meta analysis and the problem with those is you can filter the data to prove almost anything you want.

Many other studies have found a j-curve effect. So there is ambiguity, and there likely will be until someone does a long-term randomized controlled trial which is incredibly difficult.

anjel• 3 years ago

Why I always took 300-500mg of acetyl L Carnetine capsule before commencing an evening imbibing. It handily blocks Acetaldehyde formation quite handily. Doesn't protect your cardiac rhythms in the least however, and this is a another attendant risk of accrued long-term damage as with Acetaldehyde.

https://www.wikihow.com/Minimize-Cancer-Causing-Acetaldehyde...

OJFord3• 3 years ago

The (main) problem with alcohol-free 'beer'/'wine'/etc. isn't the lack of drunkenness feeling?

Especially beer has improved a lot but it's not there yet, I don't see how developing synthetic 'alcohol' will help when we still can't remove, or make the drink without causing, real alcohol?

As for hormone shots to treat an already acquired hangover... It seems niche/less than ideal - I don't think many people would want that as a regular expected thing, 'I am going to drink heavily and then take a hormone shot in the morning' sort of thing? And isn't it a solved ('banana bag') problem? Or is it the idea that you could buy injectable hormones for home use whereas you can't (and probably shouldn't want to) self-cannulate at home, and that's the only way(?) banana bags can work (because it takes more than reasonably fits in a syringe? Needs to be administered at a more gradual flow?)?

Personally I hope we find a way to remove alcohol without impacting taste at all, and then you can buy either version of the same drinks. I'd probably still get both, I do acknowledge the alcohol plays some role in me enjoying the drinks, but I can imagine having say an alcoholic pint or two, then alcohol-free. Or an alcoholic gin & tonic followed by AF wine. But until it's as good...

mcronce• 3 years ago

The (main) problem with alcohol-free 'beer'/'wine'/etc. isn't the lack of drunkenness feeling?

That depends on your goals. I like to catch a buzz once in a while but the majority of the time I'm drinking is because I really love the flavor of my favorite cocktails and the quality would be very poor as mocktails.

Using a Mai Tai as an example, of I could get a couple 0ABV rums, I could sub clarified orange juice for the orange liqueur and probably have something pretty good with no booze in it. I'd be quite happy with that.

OJFord3• 3 years ago

Exactly, re-reading I think my phrasing (or rather use of question mark) was ambiguous but that's exactly what I mean, the problem isn't the lack of 'buzz', it's the taste not being as good.

jebarker4• 3 years ago

I'm not a chemist, so this may be false, but I've heard it's almost impossible to make NA drinks that are very similar to the real thing. The reason I heard is that whilst ethanol has no flavor itself it does enable/carry (whatever that means) interactions between other chemicals meaning there are flavors present that will never be there without ethanol. Would love to know if that's actually true...

esafak2• 3 years ago

I'm not a chemist either but I know that ethanol is a solvent, and has the ability to dissolve and carry volatile organic compounds. That is why cosmetic perfumes, and food additives like vanilla extract are alcohol-based.

OJFord3• 3 years ago

Very naively and also as not-a-chemist though I would think that just because that's how A drinks do it doesn't mean we can't achieve a NA drink with the same taste by a different mechanism?

I can't really think of a great example, but crisp (US: chip) flavours sometimes seem recognisable despite the actual ingredients being a concoction of a few not-what-the-flavour-is things.

sourcecodeplz• 3 years ago

The hangover is an essential part of drinking. It's what stops you from starting all over again the next day / week.

rjh293• 3 years ago

Until you realise that alcohol actually cures hangover symptoms. Not great!

dbbk3• 3 years ago

Hair of the dog is a myth

funkychicken• 3 years ago

I love the idea of the nasal naltrexone. Naltrexone has been known for years to reduce the number of drinks consumed (by blocking opioid receptors).

I wish we could figure out a better system for accessing medications like this — like perhaps allowing pharmacists to prescribe low risk medicines in more states.

PedroBatista• 3 years ago

Oh great, I'm sure this will end as well as the pain pills from Purdue..

There is a sizable minority of people who don't have a "governor" when it comes to drinking, we call them alcoholics.

Then there is a big group of people who have some moderation, but part of that "moderation" are the hangovers and by the late 20's they start to hurt much more than consecutive nights of boozing can offer.

Let's hope this is yet another pseudo-science piece to fluff some careers and little more, otherwise I'm guessing it could in the early 80's again when coke "was fun and gave you energy to do more even at work".. ( not the company line, but the general feeling in the streets )

ttul• 3 years ago

David Nutt is an esteemed scientist. He previously chaired the UK’s Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs. He is “ David Nutt is a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, Royal College of Psychiatrists and the Academy of Medical Sciences.”

Source: Wikipedia

Gud• 3 years ago

Or better yet, legalize a wide range of drugs, slap some warning stickers on them. Like the Nutriscore you see in many countries, where an A rating won’t be too bad for you(green tea) and an F rating will lead to certain death(Fentanyl)

nunez• 3 years ago

Pacing my drinks (sip every ten minutes; bigger drink of water between sips) and Pedialyte or Gatorade Zero after drinking if I've had a lot is the only system that works for me.

I'm 36 and haven't had a serious hangover[0] in a very long time.

As an added bonus, since I drink way slower when doing this, I can enjoy my drinks more and pay less for fewer drinks.

Additionally, because I drink fewer drinks when I go out, I'm much more selective about what I drink, which means I'll opt for higher quality stuff or a good NA if no good options are available.

YMMV of course.

[0] I define "serious hangover" as "unable to get out of bed; serious nausea; serious brain fog." The worst hangover I've had since doing this is mild brain fog that recovers after a few hours.

andrewstuart• 3 years ago

A hangover is primarily dehydration.

Just drink alot of water during your drinking session or before bed.

thehappypm2• 3 years ago

It’s a lot if things, but also a buildup of acetaldehyde, which is really nasty.

Animats• 3 years ago

That's GABA Labs.[1] They've been working on this for years. They have a product, called "Sentia". It's plant-based and "natural", which avoids some regulatory problems. Their better product is an entirely synthetic molecule.

It's self-limiting. It's said to produce a pleasant buzz, but more of it won't produce drunkenness.

You can buy Sentia. It's insanely expensive.[2]

[1] https://gabalabs.com/

[2] https://sentiaspirits.com/collections/non-alcoholic-spirits

wincy• 3 years ago

It’s less expensive than a good quality whiskey. Honestly I might try some. 50cl == 500ml, so a liter for £54 doesn’t strike me as even “very expensive”, unless I’ve made some major metric maths error.

jdjdjdjdjd• 3 years ago

I have discovered that for me personally, taking magnesium before, during or shortly after having drinks greatly reduces hangovers. I typically get really strong headaches the day after from 2-3 drinks. If I take a 100mg magnesium supplement it is massively reduced. Alcohol depletes magnesium from your body so I guess it counters that.

consumer451• 3 years ago

I have the exact same personal anecdote. That and also one glass of water per drink.

Frost1x• 3 years ago

I just hydrate and take a multivitamin when I do plan on drinking a bit. And drink lots of water after.

zgluck• 3 years ago

Drinking lots of water before going to bed works really well - when you remember doing that...

kradroy• 3 years ago

Magnesium saves me too. I've had persistent leg cramps since my teens. If I look at my right calf the wrong way, it seizes up, especially after a night of drinking. All of that went away when I started taking 200mg supplements daily. Big, big difference.

hnick4• 3 years ago

Do you find a certain type works better? Last time I looked into it there were various types like malate and glycinate and I got a bit of analysis paralysis. I also get the leg cramps at night!

pgt2• 3 years ago

NAC (N-acetyl-cysteine) is a precursor to glutathione, which is used up by your liver to break down the primary toxic metabolite of alcohol: acetylaldehyde. NAC is known as an OTC hangover "preventative," but don't take it chronically because it is a mucolytic and messes with other processes.

Aside: as a non-alcoholic fermentation, kombucha contains a lot of acetylaldehyde, so avoid it during a hangover.

esafak2• 3 years ago

Aside: as a non-alcoholic fermentation, kombucha contains a lot of acetylaldehyde, so avoid it during a hangover.

Does that make kombucha bad for you?

amelius2• 3 years ago

Chronic alcohol consumption can also cause thiamine deficiency.

mabbo• 3 years ago

This is interesting. I take a high absorption magnesium pill daily. I'm not sure what the full reasons are but it seems to improve my sleep apnea and mood (though the mood may be from sleeping better).

But alcohol always seems to counteract that effect.

soligern3• 3 years ago

One glass with each drink (get the water without ice, it’s easier to chug down) and then two or three full glasses before I go to bed. Haven’t had a hangover in 15 years.

fishfood23• 3 years ago

Lots of pissing though

boomskats3• 3 years ago

I've had a subscription to David Nutt's Sentia Spirits [0] for a few months, which uses an extract from GABA Labs. I enjoy the mild effect and I do think they're onto something, but I have to mix it as it tastes a bit soapy (that's the red, I've yet to try sentia black).

I like the idea that the subscription to Sentia funds the development of Alcarelle (the product mentioned in the article), but the overwhelming reason I subscribe to it is just to support Professor David Nutt[0]. He is a true scientist with true integrity and will be remembered as being on the right side of history. The way he was treated by the UK government at the hands of big booze is an absolute tragedy.

[0] https://sentiaspirits.com/ [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt

rcarr2• 3 years ago

I also bought a few bottles of the red about 18/19 months back. I found that it tasted quite nice when it was mixed with orange juice if I remember right. It did have a very mild relaxing effect but it needed to be stronger, in the end I couldn't justify the price for what it was. I do hope they crack the code though and get something a bit closer to alcohol. And I agree about Nutt, absolute travesty that the government/UK media basically forced him out after his report.

jrflowers2• 3 years ago

I like how the FAQ has many, many different wordings of “What is in this?” and “How does this work?” with absolutely no information in response to them. It is good to not to have to worry about what is in a thing I’m ingesting or how or if it works at all.

predictabl32• 3 years ago

Yeah, four or five clicks and my BS meter is off the charts. Not even so much as a hint as to a keyword to Google for more research. :/

But also, I'm rather intrigued and am doing some more looking now...

EDIT: I can't even tell what the difference between Sentia Red and Black are. I can't tell if one of them actually contains Alcarelle (Which is hard to research since that's GABA Labs' former name). Folks, this is not how you do it.

az226• 3 years ago

The most circular bs I’ve seen in a while.

thoughtegting• 3 years ago

Some DHM (Dihydromyricetin) before heading out for drinks does the trick for me every time

miduil2• 3 years ago

I've been three+ years sober, really can recommend. Life is much different now, things that used to be fun aren't anymore - but I'm making strong connections nevertheless.

mentos• 3 years ago

Waking up early on a Saturday without a hangover is what I look forward to. I’ll just sit in bed and revel in it now ha

SavageBeast• 3 years ago

For my own personal experience, the worst part about drinking regularly - and I mean nightly if we're being at all honest - seems to be the people you meet. Having cut down drastically and switched from Volume Drinking kind of venues to Boutique Cocktail Venues I find I'm spending my time around a smaller, higher quality group of people while at the same time drinking less and enjoying my few drinks much more.

[EDIT] I suppose in hanging out with drunks every evening, it normalized the idea of being drunk every night. What I was doing seemed normal because everyone I hung out with was doing the same thing. Thats a good way to start a bad habit.

thisgoesnowhere5• 3 years ago

I think we are overcorrecting to the extremes. You don't have to be sober or crippling drunk you can have a drink once in a while and it's fine.

shaunxcode• 3 years ago

It’s also ok to be completely sober. In general if someone tells you they are sober it’s not a great idea to suggest they have a drink on occasion.

yogurthewise• 3 years ago

Agreed, I didn't stop drinking, but I cut way back on alcohol. I've found it greatly improved my health + well being.

Arch-TK• 3 years ago

I think most people who say "I've been X years sober" are usually recovering alcoholics (or almost alcoholics). In most cases (except the cases described above), alcoholism is something people are predisposed to. Some people get a high from the process of getting drunk (and stop feeling that high once they are no longer getting more drunk) these people are the ones who usually become alcoholics if they don't just decide to stay sober permanently.

As someone (e.g. me, and presumably you) who does not feel that high, it can be difficult to comprehend how some people feel like they end up on one of the two extremes.

Then there are some people who have done something inappropriate, dangerous, illegal or otherwise unacceptable when drunk and decided to sober up permanently because they can't control themselves when they do get drunk (but otherwise do not have a drinking problem).

I agree that totally rejecting alcohol is probably not useful life advice for most people, but hopefully the above explains why it is useful for some people.

soligern3• 3 years ago

I get the humor but yes it is.

AlwaysRock• 3 years ago

Some people can. Many people cant. Many people also lie to themselves and others about how much they drink. Regardless, drinking is bad for you in a whole slew of ways.

But sure. Some people can have a drink or two once in a while. Just like some people can smoke a cig or two once in a while. Just like some people can insert other thing that is unhealthy for you and addictive.

barbazoo• 3 years ago

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with overcorrecting towards sobriety or is there an objective downside I'm missing?

amatecha• 3 years ago

There are a lot of people who don't have the self-control to only "have a drink once in a while", and often their lives are adversely affected by their addition to alcohol. Don't suggest alcohol to people who have fought to stay sober and have to persistently work to resist the temptation.

nightfly• 3 years ago

What's not fun anymore?

adhesive_wombat2• 3 years ago

For me: being around drunk people for hours on end gets very tedious and you're no longer desensitised to your eardrums being pounded into the centre of your brain by the "less talking, more drinking" music volume.

AndyKelley2• 3 years ago

* spending the evening playing video games that I've already spent a ton of hours on and am not getting any kind of new experience out of anymore

* hanging out at a bar and talking to intoxicated people

* house parties

In exchange, new things are fun:

* skateboarding

* learning Japanese

* building an arcade cabinet in my basement (I'm a software developer, very little experience with wood working and other hardware stuff)

* waking up in the morning and being excited for the day

XorNot• 3 years ago

Never had a problem with alcohol, but post-30 I've decided to remove it entirely from my life. Even a little makes me feel off the next day, exacerbates IBS symptoms, and in general just hasn't been fun for a while.

Plus no one needs those calories.

ta988• 3 years ago

Congrats on your 3 years!

symlinkk• 3 years ago

I have a couple drinks an night to unwind and I really enjoy it. And I go hard on the weekend when I want to.

electrondood• 3 years ago

500mg NAC before drinking, then a pint of water + fish oil + B vitamin complex before bed = zero hangover.

Nihilartikel• 3 years ago

Reading about this venture to make anf popularize GABA tickling drug without the self limiting ill effects is worrying in the long term.

Such things exist, and sure, one is fine.. but one a day for a week and then you are heading for an undescribably hellish withdrawal.

I had a brief dalliance with Phenibut for anxiety self medication. It targets GABA receptors, and boy does it work. But read about it in the forums and then you'll find the horror stories of people trying to quit, or running out and having months of nightmares and shakes and paranoia. I noped out of that in time, thankfully.

mewpmewp2• 3 years ago

Also used to enjoy Phenibut quite a bit. Felt a bit like Alcohol without the "stupid". Although the onset time wasn't the best to handle and there was huge difference whether I took it on empty stomach in the morning or at some point later in the day. Haven't done it for a while though. Sleep was also amazing. Easy to fall asleep and so sweet. Definitely shouldn't use very frequently like you said. Best to leave at least 2 weeks inbetween. I had periods of using it every day.

archi422• 3 years ago

This is also what surprises me: No hangover and no liver damage are great, but doesn't say anything about physiological or psychological addiction. Especially since the lack of any short-term negative feedback loop (alcohol poisoning, vomiting, or at least a hangover) makes forming problematic consumption patterns much more likely.

OTOH, "one a day for a week" is very unspecific: Is that the equivalent of drinking a six-pack or two every day, alone; or gathering with friends to taste a literal sip (e.g. 5ml) of spirit? Do they act equally (not only in strength but also in decay and other factors - maybe the medicament has a booster or some chemical delay). Is there a selection bias among people who (self-)medicate, do they have traits or common environmental factors that make negative outcomes more likely?

I don't want to overly defend this, since in my usual peer-group bringing that stuff to a gathering would feel a lot like "let's do drugs together!" (only few gatherings involve drinking any amount of alcohol) and I personally don't want to figure out empirically that instead of a hangover this triggers even a light depression (or worse) - but the comparison still seems a bit simplistic to me.

darkmarmot• 3 years ago

We could replace alcohol with GHB. Done.

martinald• 3 years ago

GHB is horrendously addictive and has absolutely brutal withdrawal symptoms. It's drastically worse than alcohol in those two senses.

Plus overdoing it even marginally (as in taking 50-100% more than the "recommended" dose) results in you going into a complete coma, which can happen with alcohol but more like 5-10x.

predictabl32• 3 years ago

Random, but this makes me wonder about Gabapentin. I had a family member take it and apparently acted very erratically, and reports online indicate that it might have similar effects as those boasted by these new drinks.

Can any of the (armchair) pharmacologists shine any light for me? Thanks! I googled some, but I think I'm too inexperienced to even have a foothold to know where to start for researching or really even knowing what I need to understand to guess at this.

thesz3• 3 years ago

My personal trainer once told me that athletes that become alcoholics belong to either endurance sports of various kinds or to archer or pistol shooting. The shooting sportsmen use small amounts of alcohol to reduce tremor [1], and small amounts of alcohol became bigger with time.

[1] https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jhe1972/14/2/14_2_99/_p...

The situation in endurance sports is very different. Very elevated count of mitochondria in cells of endurances athletes make their whole body a liver, basically - these mitochondria organelles get rid of alcohol metabolites during sleep very effectively. Top level endurance athlete drinks to heart content and does not experience a hangover the next day. It is all good and well for some time, athlete can drink everything for a long time, until he has his body physiologically depend on the alcohol, now this endurance athlete is an alcoholic.

I saw an example of alcoholic former endurance athlete once in my life. It was not pretty. He drank anything he can find (or what he brought in) and sleep the work day throughout, delivering nothing.

mvkel2• 3 years ago

Elite endurance athlete here. I definitely experience hangovers on the rare occasion that I drink.

That said, was just on a cycling trip where one of the riders drank two bottles of wine to himself and was flying the next day.

Might it be something about high vo2, not just "being an endurance athlete"?

thesz3• 3 years ago

I don't know.

The guy I was talking about was Master of Sports (Russian) in skiing. It requires being at least 40th at the nation level.

i have other anecdotes that supports theory that endurance training helps with alcohol metabolism.

HWR_142• 3 years ago

There supposedly are some health properties for endurance athletes with the non-alcohol parts of beer. I think the German team brings non-alcoholic beer to the Olympics. If the alcohol doesn't bother them, I can see many athletes drinking a lot.

thesz3• 3 years ago

The same goes to red wine: resveratrol in wine lowers testosterone excretion through kidneys, testosterone, in it's part, helps body make more red blood cells that help with the endurance.

rodary2• 3 years ago

Former elite cyclist, Russian.

Can confirm, drinking in cycling circles at elite level is normal. Heavy drinking that is, even before races. Doesn't seem to have any effect on performance the next day.

Then again, we're talking 20-25 yo males with 10-15 years of endurance training.

4gotunameagain• 3 years ago

well, it kinda seems that drinking in any circle in Russia is more normal than other countries. Maybe it doesn't seem to have an effect because the others are drunk too every time ?

Ι wonder what would the effect be if someone got drunk just once before a race.

momirlan2• 3 years ago

and still, a hangover is the mildest effect of alcohol. impaired driving will give one a much stronger headache.

victorbstan• 3 years ago

Lol pretty sure your liver is still going to die.

kmbfjr• 3 years ago

How about without the liver disease?

meindnoch• 3 years ago

Just drink and/or huff ether. Same effect, shorter duration, no hangover.

CommanderData• 3 years ago

Don't all types of alcohol damage cells, so a type that has no apparent after effects but the 'high' per se would cause people to consume even more. Why is this a good thing?

Andrew Huberman did a pretty in depth podcast covering many things alcohol does to the body, masking it's apparent Ill effects can't be a good thing.

ChatGTP2• 3 years ago

I thought the same thing, the hangover is a major deterrent for me. If that is taken away I think people are just going to drink much more and make themselves sicker.

alexalx666• 3 years ago

I only have hangover after drinking wine or hard alcohol like whiskey, is this normal?

jplona• 3 years ago

Could be hydration related. Lower ABV drinks contain more water relative to the amount of alcohol you're drinking.

kleiba2• 3 years ago

Alcohol without the hangover? What an invention! Scientists are working on this. I mean, other scientists devote their lives to fighting cancer, AIDS, heart disease. These guys go, "No, I'm focusing on hangovers. Oh, sure, thousands of people are dying needlessly, but this, ptooey. That's gotta stop. You ever try and watch football the next day? It's almost impossible. I'm devoting my life to that."

jshen• 3 years ago

Most breakthroughs come from serendipitous discoveries. It’s counter productive to be critical in this way.

Barrin92• 3 years ago

it seems to have become fashionable to think that all life is about is avoiding to die and in the process avoiding any sort of risk or fun whatsoever, but I'm personally glad that a few scientists are still concerned with improving the actual living part.

So to any scientists out there who can help me have a fun night out without feeling like a zombie next morning, as far as I'm concerned they're a genius. much more useful to me than people who seem to obsessed to make me die at 85 instead of 82 hooked up to a dozen machines

larrysalibra• 3 years ago

Ha! Nice riff on Seinfeld’s seedless watermelon bit! https://youtu.be/ZB39jT0qq3Y

kleiba2• 3 years ago

Geez, thanks! I was starting to think that I was the only one over 40 around here...

011000112• 3 years ago

There are many other alcohols, 2M2B(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tert-Amyl_alcohol) for example, which are "alcohol without the hangover" in a sense. I seem to remember a scientist looking into ways to deliver these alcohols(absorbed in cellulose IIRC). You'll note that these chemicals, like alcohol, can also lead to overdoses and since they are much more potent it is even more difficult to ensure one does not overconsume. I suspect that is why they have never been sold commercially for recreational consumption.

Of course, you will likely always get some after effects from any mind altering substance as you brain returns to normal, but alcohols which do not metabolize to acetaldehyde are going to result in much less suffering the following day or two.

I was somewhat fascinated by other alcohols for quite a while. A microbrewery I used to frequent had some abnormally potent brews despite being around 6%. By potent, I mean that my friends who would normally split a 36 pack of Coors lite between the two of them would be heavily buzzed after a pint or two. A little research led me to discover that fermented beverages are a complex cocktail of chemicals, many of which are psychoactive. Some of those chemicals can actually interfere with a simple alcohol measurement based on specific gravity, so you could be under-stating the ethanol content while also producing a brew with higher levels of mind-altering substances.

Here is one such substance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophol When yeast are nutritionally stressed, they will often excrete amino acids and other chemicals with alcoholic functional groups attached. By tailoring the nutritional profile of the wort, you can select for higher or lower levels of these mind altering substances. I suspect it has something to do with how some beverages, notably cider(very poor nutrition for yeast) can give me a hangover before I even manage to fall asleep.

In any case, it's fascinating that you can setup a brewery and crank out mind altering chemicals and be largely unregulated beyond the amounts of ethanol(and maybe methanol) in your products.

ramraj072• 3 years ago

I hope you can see that your friends are alcoholics. Drinking 18 of any alcoholic drink shouldn't be considered normal as much as the surroundings might indicate otherwise.

serf• 3 years ago

it's not normal in the base-line average manner of speech, but it's common. 17 percent of American men have binge-drank in their past year.[0]

another point : a single anecdote about someone binge drinking is by no means the single qualified indicator for alcoholism. alcoholism is a specific set of mental and physical traits which all orbit the most common traits of uncontrollability and preoccupation/addiction.

a single binge drinking episode isn't smart or healthy; and it may indicate something as part of a broader trend, but it's not a good indicator of whether or not someone is an alcoholic.

[0] https://magazine.medlineplus.gov/article/how-much-is-too-muc...

photonbeam• 3 years ago

I highly doubt anyone is misleading themselves

thesaintlives• 3 years ago

I think you mean masochists not alcoholics. Coors lite is the most disgusting beer known to man!

011000112• 3 years ago

Yeah that's not a secret. I'm not sure why you thought that was relevant here but I'm not going to deny it.

credit_guy• 3 years ago

I did some math, because 18 is a big number, and I had to wrap my head around it.

So, Coors Light has an ABV of 4.2%. When people talk about "drinks", one beer is 12 fl oz at 5% [1]. A can of Coors Light has 12 fl oz, but at 4.2%, so 18 such cans correspond to only 15 "drinks". Also, equal to 3 full bottles (750 ml each) of Prosecco at 12% ABV.

[1] https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/licensee-education/alcohol-...

tsol2• 3 years ago

I've always been fascinated by these trace alcohols. They are very rarely talked about. Some people will say 'alcohol is alcohol' but that's actually incorrect. Alcoholic drinks are bioactive concoctions made of organic materials with multiple active ingredients-- the hops in beer for example has a slight effect on cannabinoid receptors which is why beer tend to makes one sleepy. Like you said there are a lot of trace alcohols as well. People report having different effects from different alcohols-- vodka can be numbing while wine feels more relaxed, etc.

By categorizing an inventory of these trace alcohols and their effects, one could hypothetically create customized alcohols with varying effects and levels of metabolic load. These trace alcohols are also called fusel alcohols. A lot of these are very weird chemicals with varying effects, though, not all positive. Propan-1-ol is a fusel alcohol that is thought to be 2-4 times stronger that alcohol and similar in effects, but can lead to high anion gap metabolic acidosis as a lethal side effect. So there are likely safe maximum levels of each fusel alcohol that can actually be added. Fusel alcohols are something brewers take great care to avoid, after all, as they can cause many negative effects. There's something interesting there and I'm surprised no one has pursued this before(AFAIK)

fragmede• 3 years ago

Outside of alcohol and that family, Vice.com tells me GHB and ketamine are similarly mind altering without the alcohol hangover.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/xw879j/ghb-explainer-club-dr...

https://www.vice.com/en/article/jg5ja7/sick-of-drinking-more...

getpost• 3 years ago

This comment gives me an excuse to post (again) about one of my favorite books, Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers: The Secrets of Ancient Fermentation by Stephen Harrod Buhner (1998). Chapter 7 is about Psychotropic and Highly Inebriating Beers, including myrica gale, wild rosemary, yarrow, wormwood, clary sage, broom, hanbane, darnel, saffron, and wild lettuce.

https://www.amazon.com/Sacred-Herbal-Healing-Beers-Fermentat...

xyzelement• 3 years ago

Not a big drinker but I find that I have a hangover from wine (sulfites?) and beer (carb overload?) but not tequila or mezcal. If I want to have a celebratory drink with dinner, mezcal is the no-regret-tomorrow choice at least for me. Plus being well hydrated.

wittyusername• 3 years ago

ZBiotics is a really exciting biotech startup that makes a GMO probiotic that digests Acetaldehyde, a byproduct of alcohol consumption that is a large part of hangovers. Personally think they reduce the effect of drinking by about 40%.

www.Zbiotics.com

manicennui• 3 years ago

I rarely drink anymore. Edibles are superior in every way.

jimmydef• 3 years ago

As someone with severe Asian flush, with an overactive ADH gene (gene that converts of alcohol to acetaldehyde) and 2 defective ALDH2 alleles (gene that breaks down acetaldehyde into harmless byproducts), I wish there is a way to repair these genes using MRNA. I don't feel even the mildest buzz from alcohol but I instantly get a hangover when I drink.

Scoundreller• 3 years ago

mRNA injections won't do it. You'd need a CRISPR for that. And someway to get the rest of your body to take up the cells with the new genes, and you're a little late for most of your cells. I think you're better off searching for non-alcoholic alternatives in the short-medium term.

jokowueu2• 3 years ago

Dr David butt has been persuing alcohol replacements for a while not but he was forced to redo many substitutes because of the difficulty to aquiring them . His earlier substitutes were much more fascinating compared to what he has selected now

Moldoteck• 3 years ago

I've never understood how ppl get drunk with low alcohol drinks (beer/wine/something similar). After 1 beer I'm literally full, I feel my belly full and just can't push more

jokowueu2• 3 years ago

GHB could have been perfect if it wasn't so good , the dosage between a perfect buzz and blacking out is too thin

sacnoradhq• 3 years ago

Just about the time I left university, the supplement "cure" RU-21 was touted as eliminating the hangover. The gotcha was dosing prior to drinking and dosing with each drink.

porkbeer• 3 years ago

Be aware many of these synthetics being sold now just break down into GHB. Thats why the websites selling them are so cagey on how they work. It is technically an illegal precursor.

Alcohol without the hangover – scientists are finding ways

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