A look inside the SNES, PS5, and Xbox controllers with CT scans

https://www.scanofthemonth.com/scans/gamepads

by taylorbuley • 3 years ago

289 134 3 years ago

It's a shame everything used to come with a diagram. Now we resort to CT and x-rays.

Blame intellectual property theft. I'm sure there's a right to repair angle in there as well but my guess would be that it's mainly driven by IP.

I had a friend who worked on electronics about 20 years ago. Suddenly they were facing a flood of reverse engineered devices coming out of China. The build quality was lower than their official devices but it was hard for customers to tell the difference and they were undercutting them on price enough to crater the companies revenues.

Enforcing patents and other IP was basically a non-starter even when they tracked down the shops in China.

Eventually they ended up just partnering with them and selling the lower quality and cheaper versions of their devices because they couldn't compete and all the work they had done to design, test, prototype, etc was written off as a loss.

autoexec5• 3 years ago

At least controllers usually are pretty easy to open up and teardown. When I read the title my first thought was "why not just use a screw driver to see inside?"

spondylosaurus2• 3 years ago

Remember those translucent DualShock controllers for PS2? There was nothing cooler than watching the little motor spin around when you activated rumble in-game. I'd love if Sony put out a similar style DualSense for PS5.

Firmwarrior• 3 years ago

You can get a translucent replacement chassis for pretty much any game peripheral and put it on yourself, just hit up AliExpress with $3 and a lot of patience

devindotcom• 3 years ago

This is definitely cool but if you want a more comprehensive teardown of the NES, SNES, N64 and Gamecube controllers, this is the one:

https://www.fictiv.com/teardowns/nintendo-controller-teardow...

I just love how overbuilt the old controllers are. I still have my original SNES and controllers and as far as I can tell they work as well as the day they were made despite decades of abuse. One has bite marks... not sure if that was the dog or me playing The Lion King.

auxym• 3 years ago

I seem to remember N64 joysticks were somewhat fragile. Many of my friends as a kid had controllers with a joystick that had lost all springiness and barely responded to input.

I have not are that on any other controllers, even cheapo xbox360 clone controllers from AliExpress.

willcipriano• 3 years ago

The kids call it stick drift today, its a big problem on the switch I heard.

Gamemaster1379• 3 years ago

N64 controllers had an issue where once the lubricant dried out the joystick began grinding it's contained bowl into dust. It's not a springiness issue as much as it is a holder destruction. Massive design flaw.

Jach• 3 years ago

Modern joysticks feel more fragile in some ways. In the N64's case, game design evolved to not have us abuse them as much anymore. Palm blisters from playing Mario Party's rotate-the-stick-as-fast-as-you-can minigames were pretty common... But the controllers lasted a while, even the third party ones, even if eventually they started showing problems. I wanted some nostalgia years ago on an emulator and tried that with an xbone controller, one match of tug-of-war was all it took and I found myself having to solder in a new sensor. Since then if I get the urge again, or some other game needs me to rotate fast to win, I just lose.

bc_programming• 3 years ago

The "return to center" behaviour of the N64 Control Stick is provided by a spring that pushes up against a plastic bowl which is underneath the stick. The stick itself slots through two curved plastic pieces for each axis, and the upward force basically forces the stick to 'center' at the lowest point of the bowl. The issue is as others have described. There actually never was any lubricant, so over time the bottom of the stick and the bowl just erode away. Eventually it reaches a point where the bowl is eroded away enough that the spring is no longer able to force the stick back to the center, and it just sort of flops in the dead space eroded in the bowl.

Nowadays, one can get replacement parts, and fairly easily restore/fix the problem. Add in a bit of PTFE lube or lithium grease and it greatly extends the lifespan of the replacement as well. Used to be able to get rather fancy steel bowls and analog sticks which significantly reduced the wear even more.

The more 'standard' thumbstick design has a similar self-centering mechanism. They are actually susceptible to the same problem. However, two things contribute to it being witnessed less frequently, I suspect. The first, is that the "bowl" in those sticks actually has lubricant which greatly reduces the wear, and the second is that the mechanical parts tend to outlast the potentiometers; that is, the sticks start to drift before you get the "floppy stick" problem to begin with and then you stop using it or replace the stick, and therefore it doesn't actually see enough wear to cause the floppy stick problem.

nicetryguy3• 3 years ago

You may want to open it up with a phillips head jewelery screwdriver (they don't have the lockout screws) and clean the scum off of the pads and button areas. If the rubber pads are still springy, then you are in good shape. I can tell you as a Heavy Retro Console User (with a beautiful Trinitron CRT) that the rubber pads will eventually lose their springiness... there isn't much you can do for that and there are no suitable replacements... but i will vouch that those worn out controllers have given me more than their fair share.

Lammy• 3 years ago

Pardon my pedantry, but any cross-head crews in old game consoles are likely to be JIS, not Phillips, and using a Phillips driver makes it likely to strip every single screw: https://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/300

TillE• 3 years ago

The SNES controller is a beautiful thing because it's literally just a bit shift register wired up to the buttons. Super simple to emulate it, make an adapter for it, or be compatible with it.

jonny_eh2• 3 years ago

Not to mention is still very comfortable, especially for its size. And it's basically the pinnacle of 2D controller design when it comes to functionality.

msk-lywenn3• 3 years ago

Best 2D controller is the Japanese saturn one. Better ergonomics, six face buttons and even shoulder buttons.

MichaelEstes• 3 years ago

Does anyone know how accurate these are to the raw data a CT scan produces, it looks really clean, has it been touched up any significant amount or is this actually the quality of the machines?

guhidalg3• 3 years ago

I've seen slightly better scans from the Lumafield machine I have access to at $DAYJOB, but only slightly better. The scans shown here are very high quality.

You don't get access to raw data, assuming you mean something like individual X-ray images. The service runs the tomography on some cluster in the cloud and you get access to the reconstruction through a web app.

endisneigh2• 3 years ago

Radiologist?

GranPC• 3 years ago

The scans you see on this website are from Lumafield machines, so that does check out.

lostlogin• 3 years ago

I’m a radiographer, but haven’t done CT in a long time.

These look cleaned up, as the metal artifact from dense things is minimal.

I’ve scanned things then converted the Dicom file into a format suitable for printing (I’d broken a part of a coffee grinder). These images look like the item when moves to a 3D print in format.

Side story: finding out what’s inside things is what CT is for. We used to scan the chip packets before loading them into the vending machine. We sort out the ones with prizes inside.

jonbruner• 3 years ago

Ha! I'm with Lumafield--we've actually done the same thing, scanning bags of Doritos, Cheetos, and Ruffles: https://www.lumafield.com/article/bite-into-doritos-ruffles-...

To answer the question about whether these are cleaned up, these scans aren't processed beyond what our software does automatically during the reconstruction. Industrial CT scanners are designed to scan a wider range of material densities than medical scanners. We use some copper filtration to scan parts with lots of dense materials, but no extra processing is required once we've reconstructed the model.

amelius• 3 years ago

You can do this yourself. Just bring a USB drive to the airport and ask the TSA officer for a copy of the images.

Hamuko• 3 years ago

Are they going to give me copies? Do I need to threaten them with GDPR?

kube-system• 3 years ago

The TSA DGAF about GDPR

ComputerGuru• 3 years ago

I would hope that data can’t be just copied to a USB. I would like to believe it is destroyed automatically except with an override authorization code from a couple of managers but I know better.

autoexec5• 3 years ago

When TSA employees were busted for saving pics of women going through their nudie scanners they were saving the images on their cell phones if that makes you feel better.

hyperific3• 3 years ago

That sounds like a major security liability

partiallypro• 3 years ago

You can see what the agents are looking at just going through a security line.

WhereIsTheTruth3• 3 years ago

DualShock controllers are the best, tactile, haptic feedback and gyroscope

Nintendo's joycons also pretty novel, you just clip them on your console in/out and you unlock new ways to play, OP should have included them too, I'm curious now.. a shame its build quality is one of the worst of this decade

Xbox's one is pretty basic and conservative, wich is a shame..

PretzelPirate• 3 years ago

I don't want controllers to keep changing. I love the Xbox controller.

I also have a PS5 and a switch, but those controllers don't feel good in my hand. The PS5 haptics don't add much IMO, but hurt battery life enough that I'd rather just turn them off.

spondylosaurus2• 3 years ago

Most games don't take advantage of haptics, but the ones that do have been pretty cool IME. The physical feedback made web-slinging in the new Spider-Man super fun and engaging, and Returnal used trigger pressure to switch between your weapon's main firing mode and secondary firing mode (and used audio/haptic feedback to let you know when the secondary mode was off cooldown).

Macha• 3 years ago

Luckily, the Xbox controller fundamentals have changed relatively little since the move from the Duke to the S controller during the life of the original xbox. I say luckily, because I feel they got pretty close to the optimum design around then, and later enhancements have been about mostly shuffling the battery components around.

WhereIsTheTruth3• 3 years ago

Well, I use a controller to game and interact with the game, the most ways to game, the more fun I have

Hence why I bought a Nintendo Switch, the premise is: to have fun

autoexec5• 3 years ago

My main complaint with the PS5 controller is that it's a terrible remote control for streaming services. The triggers are constantly being activated just by setting it down on its back and if it falls on its front the sicks move causing video to fast forward or rewind. It seems to fall off the arms of chairs and couches easily too. When you're holding it like a controller though it's fine.

My minor complaint is that it came with two internal microphones, but thankfully it's very easy to open the controller up and rip them out.

dirtyid• 3 years ago

Layout seems to be mostly locked in. Apart from back buttons from elite controllers. What we really need are more controller sizes. It's ridiculous they're still one-size fits all.

verisimilidude• 3 years ago

It feels like Xbox also serves as a reference controller for PC. Viewed from that angle, basic and conservative makes sense.

I still really like the XBox controllers for their ergonomics. They’ve been refining that same basic design for a long time.

sdf4j• 3 years ago

Nintendo established the blueprint for gamepads in 1985 with the iconic rectangular Nintendo Entertainment System

I'm pretty sure they did it two years before with the famicom gamepad.

chrisco2553• 3 years ago

Right, but Famicom is just the Japanese name for the NES, which, as you say, debuted in Japan first.

msk-lywenn3• 3 years ago

Op is right, the famicom/nes was released in 1983

cubefox3• 3 years ago

The NES actually had a pretty different shell, removable controllers, one audio channel less, and some other hardware differences.

asdkfjhsifhsjd• 3 years ago

kinda of a let down.

CT scan and just focus on the big huge unavoidably obvious stuff.

The biggest change in feel and game play from the SNES and the newer controller for example is the lack of plate under the dpad and other things that are awsome to see with a scan like that. Yet they ignore all that.

sethbannon• 3 years ago

Perfect combination combining the wonders of youth (video games) with the wonders of adult age (understanding and building technology).

cubefox3• 3 years ago

One thing they didn't make quite clear here is that the Xbox controller is considerably less advanced than the PS5 controller.

The PS5 controller has "linear resonant actuators" (previously introduced in the Switch, and in the iPhone before that) which provide a much more fine-grained rumble feature than the older method which is still used in the XBox. The newer feature lets you feel e.g. that the character walks over sand, rubble or grass. The PS5 controller also has actual force-feedback triggers (which simulate e.g. a bow or a gun), while on the XBox there are only simple rumble motors. The XBox controller also still lacks a gyroscope (e.g. used for more precise aiming), which other controllers have for many years now. A really outdated piece of hardware, in contrast to the base console.

madrox• 3 years ago

Owning both systems, this makes a noticeable difference when playing games. All other things being equal, if I get a choice of which system to play a game on, then I choose PlayStation for the controller alone.

nyjah• 3 years ago

That’s how I feel. I like both controllers, but the PlayStation controller for me is the most ‘next-gen’ thing about the consoles.

Freedog35• 3 years ago

Yeah difference is so notable between! Surprised they didn’t discuss that more.

xeromal• 3 years ago

I've stopped playing everything but competitive gaming on my PC to play on my PS5 controller. I've tried using the ps5 controller on my PC but the experience isn't great except with wired so I'll keep using my PS5 for some time. The games seem more optimized too.

dmbche• 3 years ago

I'm not certain how outdated it is. I'm certainly happy with it, and I imagine it adds workload to the console.

katbyte• 3 years ago

well it is objectively outdated based on the different tech and capabilities.

now as to if these are something you want or need is another question.

kwanbix2• 3 years ago

I have both an XBOX Series X and a PlayStation 5.

Maybe I am too old, but I hardly feel any differene.

I am not saying it is not there, I am saying I cannot feel it.

The only difference is in the triggers, where you have to press more or less on the PS5.

mustacheemperor3• 3 years ago

If you start playing shooting games with gyro aim, you'll definitely feel the difference - because it's not even an option on Xbox.

As far as the haptics go, the degree to which cross-platform games use them really varies. Cold War had cool haptic triggers so you felt the recoil kick, but I don't think that was included in MW2. Some exclusives like Returnal leverage the advanced haptics in a really impressive way, too, but I don't think we'll see that in many cross platform titles.

darknavi2• 3 years ago

I haven't picked up a Dual Shock controller in probably 5 years. How does the "heft" feel these days? I was really put off by the PS4 controller (DS4?) because of the super light, plastic-y feel.

Compare that to a Xbox Elite controller (different price tier, I know) and it feels like a cheap piece of junk.

I assume with all of this new tech the PS5 controller is a bit heftier but I was surprised how much just the weight made a different for me.

yokoprime• 3 years ago

I love the elite controller, best gaming peripheral I’ve owned. Melts into the hand and has back paddles

terribleperson• 3 years ago

Anecdotally, the dualsense subjectively feels a lot higher quality than the Dualshock 4. I just picked up both to check.

mrbonner• 3 years ago

The ps5 controller, just like the PS4 controller, are succumbed to the dreaded stick drifting issue. I play Call of Duty and this stick drifting issue has made me own more than 4-5 controllers for each generation. At this point I have a conspiracy theory that Sony intentionally not fixing this. My friends in the Xbox camp say they never experienced this issue.

ProfessorLayton• 3 years ago

What makes this situation even more frustrating is that analog sticks have been around for a long time now. I still have controllers from the PS2/GC/Xbox era that work just fine after all these years and countless hours of play, and have no drift whatsoever.

Even the earliest analog sticks like the N64 (Which used LEDs for tracking) didn't suffer from drift — although it did wear out considerably mechanically!

I just bit the bullet and replaced my Joycon's sticks with 3rd party hall-sensing ones, which have worked great so far.

cubefox3• 3 years ago

Yeah, the same problem exists on the Switch. The console manufacturers should have switched to more expensive Hall effect sticks, which are not affected by this problem. I think the XBox controller also doesn't have them, but maybe they use simply higher quality parts here.

electroly• 3 years ago

I've had two Xbox controllers ruined by stick drift. Both camps are shipping cheaper non-Hall effect sensors in their controllers.

bonestamp2• 3 years ago

It might be a coincidence, but I bought the DualSense Edge and while I think it's overpriced, the sticks seem much more precise. Does anyone know if the Edge is using hall effect sticks? At more than double the price of the regular controller, I'd hope they're using higher end sticks. That said, at least they can be replaced easily and relatively cheaply ($20) on the Edge.

zerocrates2• 3 years ago

I'm pretty sure all the manufacturers have this problem pretty much equally, at least on their "normal" controllers. Nintendo worse probably just due to the very constrained available size.

You see users of all the consoles anecdotally reporting drift problems. I haven't experienced personally any drift on my PS4 or PS5 controllers, nor an Xbox controller used for a PC. I did have it happen pretty significantly on a Switch Lite.

I also think there's probably an aspect of personal usage patterns: maybe if you're just going through sticks constantly, you apply more pressure, or just use them more, or have something like a dusty environment wearing them out faster.

kjkjadksj• 3 years ago

Xbox one controllers are susceptible to the bumpers failing on the other hand. You can at least still play with drift.

pdntspa• 3 years ago

My Xbox 360 controllers are finally starting to drift. So I wouldn't rule out the newer ones just yet.

goosedragons• 3 years ago

This issues affects all analog sticks not using hall effect ones. You can easily find examples of this hitting Xbox players too. There was even a class action lawsuit for Xbox controllers about it

mustacheemperor3• 3 years ago

The XBox controller also still lacks a gyroscope

This is the big one for me. For me it is such an improvement in both "feel" and in my real performance that I cannot go back to a system without one. When MW2 released without gyro support, I played briefly but wound up putting it down until that was added in an update.

The PS4 controller had a gyro too that was essentially never utilized. I was really hoping this would be the gen when all the major vendors included it, but Microsoft, alone, opted not to.

The speakerphone built into the controller is great too. I can run all the game audio through my hifi, and still talk to my friends on in-game voice chat without using a headset.

robotnikman• 3 years ago

As much as I like the playstation controller, the layout has always been awkward for me. The layout of the Xbox or switch controllers always felt more easy to use for me.

jareklupinski• 3 years ago

i think the xbox layout is better for more hand types, but certain people seem to never be able to switch from playstations layout

my thumb joints still ache from beating ape escape

imstate• 3 years ago

opposite for me. I can't stand the xbox analog stick placements. I think it's good to have different options so people can choose what works for them.

vlunkr2• 3 years ago

The PS5 controller is pretty cool, however, I'd probably trade in most of that functionality for the battery life of Switch Pro controller.

beltsazar• 3 years ago

Unless you constantly play more than 6 hours straight without rest, the mediocre battery of PS5 controller is not really a problem. Much less so if you have the official charging dock.

nullify88• 3 years ago

One of the things I like about the Xbox Pad when used with a PC is that when a wired headphone is plugged in to the controller, the pad appears as a new audio device and routes the audio to your headphones. I use the pads via the wireless dongle (Via virtualhere from my Shield), but may work via wired usb or bluetooth.

As much as I agree the PS5 controller is better technically, the xbox pad works better with a PC. Compatibility wise, not many games take advantage of the haptic feedback triggers.

rectangleboy• 3 years ago

Interesting. I get this controller headphone port feature when using the PS5, it's too bad it doesn't carry over to PC.

Solvency• 3 years ago

And yet the PS5 controller is worse at the most fundamental thing: physical ergonomics. The Xbox controller is so much more comfortable to hold and play with it doesn't even count.

dontlaugh3• 3 years ago

For some. I can’t use the Xbox one for long without pain. The position of the left trigger is particularly bothersome.

The PS3 controller was indeed uncomfortable, but for the past two generations the two competing consoles are on par. Some find one more comfortable, others the other.

p1necone2• 3 years ago

I can't stand the offset sticks on the Xbox controller - feels much more natural to me to have both thumbs in the same position. And I massively prefer the shape of the PS4 controller to everything else, including PS5.

My ideal controller would be the PS4 shape and layout, but with the dpad and triggers from the Xbox one/series controller (the PS5 haptic feedback is nice, but hardly any games I play actually use it effectively, and I like the shape of the Xbox triggers more).

c-hendricks• 3 years ago

A fun thing about the Dual sense rumble is that it's just sound data. One time u changed my PC to output to the controller, thinking it would use the speaker, but it just played the audio via vibrations.

(I'm not sure if that's just how all "linear resonant actuators" work, just found it neat)

SSLy• 3 years ago

It is, you can find the rumble WAV's (well, AIFF's) if you dig enough through iPhone OS dump

MBCook• 3 years ago

That’s how the one in the iPhone works as well. I remember people’s surprise (myself included) when it was discovered. Teardowns revealed a second audio amp that wasn’t attached to the speaker and that’s how it was discovered to work.

Razengan• 3 years ago

The DualSense is literally one of the best reasons to own a PlayStation 5.

After you've played some games that make full use of its advanced haptics (like Demon's Souls, Ghost of Tsushima, Gran Turismo 7, Doom Eternal), going back to other platforms (or even other PS5 games that don't use all the features) feels like something's missing from your hands.. just dead.

Graphics have been Good Enough for several years now. It's time to focus on other areas of the gaming, and the control method is the second most important part of that experience.

mackeyja92• 3 years ago

Wonder how the elite controller stacks up.

graftak• 3 years ago

You forgot to mention that it runs on AA batteries instead of a built in batteries that allow you to simply charge the controller.

Truly an outdated design that would force me to manage a fleet of rechargeable batteries, something I have zero desire for.

herrherrmann• 3 years ago

Running on standard replaceable batteries is definitely a feature and not an “outdated design”, especially when it comes to sustainability. And for some devices you can also have both replaceable batteries and charging ports (e.g. some cameras offer that). But yeah, I guess wireless Xbox controllers can’t be charged directly.

donatj• 3 years ago

Having both, I strongly prefer being able to quickly swap in some new rechargeable double A's versus having to plug in a 15 ft cord from my system to my controller on the couch. I find the latter such a hassle that when my PlayStation controller dies I stop playing.

nicetryguy3• 3 years ago

I appreciate the in-depth look but i will say that it really isn't necessary and these things are completely openable, cleanable, operatable, and repairiable in most cases. I have opened, cleaned, operated on and repaired many of them. (except for the rubber pads, if they go ...you're kinda fu...deged)

hyperific3• 3 years ago

Finally scanofthemonth makes it to the front page of HN

bartislartfast• 3 years ago

you can just open them with screwdrivers I'm sure.

XCSme• 3 years ago

The website/presentation is really cool. One thing that's missing is some bookmarks on the right side, to scroll directly to a specific controller/section.

InitialLastName• 3 years ago

In 1991, the Super Nintendo (SNES) controller added two more buttons and took on a (slightly) more ergonomic design.

Talk about attention to detail: the SNES controller added 4 more buttons (you have to count the shoulders).

pbj1968• 3 years ago

I’m glad it wasn’t just me. SMH

RadixDLT• 3 years ago

any signs of overheating? ps4 is the worsts

A look inside the SNES, PS5, and Xbox controllers with CT scans

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