BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

https://www.motor1.com/news/597376/bmw-heated-seats-subscription/

by ra7 • 4 years ago

281 384 4 years ago

xupybd3• 4 years ago

I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the car.

Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product.

MerelyMortal2• 4 years ago

As long as you can find the wires that provide power to the seat heaters, add a switch, and splice it into some power, I imagine one can enable it without any software changes.

snypher• 4 years ago

Let me introduce you to our good 'friend' Control Module.

magicalhippo• 4 years ago

I had a BMW i3 2017. Last year one of the front turn signal lights broke. So I went to the shop to ask for a replacement bulb.

There I learned you can't just replace the bulb, no. The whole light module had to be replaced, $350 + work.

These things are getting ridiculously integrated. Wouldn't surprise me if the seat heaters had some integrated temperature controller unit just because.

nabilhat• 4 years ago

Absolutely, seat warmers are typically nothing more than a resistive grid under the fabric. A quick check for how power's supplied in case there's a requirement for current control, and wire in a physical switch.

Unless there's something snuck in that throws codes if the seat heater does something unexpected - wouldn't that be something, DRM for Bimmer bun warmers. In which case if it's not possible to fool the system by wiring in a resistor instead, then it's a car to avoid as seat warmers are rather prone to broken traces over time from occupants bouncing and shuffling around on the seats, which could render the car unregisterable in regions that check OBD codes.

foepys• 4 years ago

Yes you can do that with a SASS product but no you cannot for a physical product.

Why?

Not that I am in favor of this but are there really objective arguments to support that?

One can argue that the ecological impact is higher due to the need for additional materials but maybe people buy new a car only because they didn't have feature X and installing it afterwards is too expensive.

xupybd3• 4 years ago

Because you're getting a good deal out of it. They're managing the hardware it runs on. Keeping the software up to date.

The customer gets a good deal. We have office 365. Users self manage. They can download and install on devices as they want. Before office 365 I had to install it for them. It's a big win for our business. We have no dedicated I.T. people. I'm a developer that does a little here and there but we work to avoid anything with I.T. costs. SASS is a brilliant solution to our problem.

Yeah I'll pay a subscription for an on going service.

I won't pay a subscription for enabling a feature I then have to maintain. If the seat heater fails, I have to pay to fix it.

sanjayio• 4 years ago

Because for the heated seats there are no server fees, maintenance costs, firmware updates, patches, future features under development, product teams thinking about lifecycle, the list goes on. The same can’t be said for AI in Teslas or Whoop straps which can justify the cost / subscription.

DoctorOW• 4 years ago

Not that I am in favor of this but are there really objective arguments to support that?

This annoys me so much. It's pretty clear "cannot" in this context means in their opinion non-justifiable. There is no such thing as an objective opinion and those who believe in objective opinions generally are just referring to their own thoughts as objective.

CogitoCogito2• 4 years ago

The seats are there whether they use it or not. The ecological impact is the same regardless. (Actually installing it without ever allowing its use might be worst of all so maybe you could say the ecological impact is worse by this approach than all others.)

The SASS product is more akin to paying for ongoing use of energy. The more it's used the more an impact there is.

deng• 4 years ago

I hope people promptly come up with ways to enable these features for free. This is nothing short of criminal. To charge for a feature that is physically in the car.

This is very common. It is often cheaper to have a single SKU and enable/disable features via software than to create a separate one. I don't see what could be criminal about that.

Reubachi• 4 years ago

It is common in industry that use SAAS, modular systems, etc. Not with purely physical goods.

I'm surprised practices like these have legal legs. No reasonable finance statement/legal statement will stand behind a $3.5k line item under manufacturing for a robot to flip a switch to enable a software setting on already installed hardware.

Example w/ non-real numbers: BMW x5 with front facing radar, dealer enabled, cost of goods sold = $31,000. MSRP = $60k.

BMW x5 with front facing radar installed, dealer disabled, cogs =$31,000.MSRP= $56.5k.

This is not healthy for a company to rely on.

jrochkind1• 4 years ago

"Unauthorized Bread"—a tale of jailbreaking refugees versus IoT appliances—is the lead novella in author Cory Doctorow's Radicalized

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...

runnerup• 4 years ago

I kind of like the idea of the manufacturers installing hardware that I don’t have to pay for and can enable with a software patch or computer swap.

Andaith• 4 years ago

If they're installing the hardware you _are_ paying for it, they just want to increase their profits by charging you more money to use the hardware you've already paid for!

If it's _your car_ then all the features in the car _belong to you_. Why should you pay a third party additional monies to use features of an object that _you already own_.

I think this is despicable, and I won't purchase a car that I can't own outright.

Anunayj• 4 years ago

I think what the parent commenter implied to mean here is, they like when companies put in features (Razor and blade model) and add soft-locks to prohibit people from using them, because they a tech-savvy user can often find a way around it.

They think this benefits them, because they can get a device (for example a printer) at cheaper prices at what would be possible, and find ways around (cartridge) soft locks.

throwaway0a5e3• 4 years ago

It's not that simple. Even if they're not installing it you're paying for some of it because of all the overhead it takes to offer the option.

vr46• 4 years ago

So you can pay for the extra fuel needed to haul around all the extra weight of a “fully-loaded” vehicle?

nix23• 4 years ago

Sure you pay for it, and a second time to use it.

ClumsyPilot5• 4 years ago

I bet my house there will eventually be a car that charges you extra for driving to the hospital, or outright refuses, and that there will be people on this forum defending this 'feature' with "manufacturer doesn't want responsebility for transporting a bleeding person, you should call an ambulance"

sp527• 4 years ago

They have an option to buy it outright that appears to be priced at the same level as a typical upgrade. They also have 1 and 3 year subscriptions. This is actually a net win for both BMW and for consumers. You can do things like "try extensively before you buy" or even choose to only subscribe during the winter (which they probably expect a lot of people to do). BMW benefits because they're almost certainly expanding the total value they capture in upgrades. It's no longer a single customer decision point. Really savvy and perfectly sensible.

notfromhere• 4 years ago

You’re paying for the permission to turn on hardware you already paid for

dexterdog2• 4 years ago

But you would pay more for it if they had to put it in only certain models based on the packaging. They've done it with satellite radio for a long time now.

_zzaw2• 4 years ago

Haha nope. If I buy the car, I own everything that is in it. Installing extra parts or features? Sure, I'll pay for that. Hardware that's already in the car, and disabled just so the manufacturer can try to squeeze more money out of me? Never. I'll either enable it myself, or refuse to support companies that do such a thing if I can't.

Subscription models like this one need to be punished, hard, and/or simply rendered unprofitable. Maybe a few rich chumps are willing to pay, but I think the vast majority of car buyers have no interest in being nickel-and-dimed for the privilege of using hardware they already paid for.

brewdad• 4 years ago

How though? If you buy the car and either don't enable it or bypass it, they still made a sale. Everyone who pays for the feature is pure profit. There's no downside unless potential buyers opt for a Mercedes instead of a BMW. But once they are all doing it, the die is cast.

privacyking• 4 years ago

Your CPU and GPU do the exact same thing

teruakohatu• 4 years ago

try extensively before you buy

More like try *after* you buy, and then pay a subscription to use.

LeeroyWasHere• 4 years ago

They're working on much worst things... Prepare for car microtransactions.

benj1112• 4 years ago

I wonder what the going rate would be to deploy airbags at the point of impact.

I suppose the challenge would be getting consent in-between the crash becoming inevitable and actually happening

4ggr0• 4 years ago

This is starting to sound like a dystopian cyberpunk world.

"Our car tried to deploy the airbags, but the customers credit card was declined"

Although to make it even more futuristic, we could replace "credit card" with "crypto wallet"

"Please deposit some $BMWTKN to your wallet or sell one of your cars microservices in order for the window-wipers to work again.[...] We detected that your rear-view camera was sold, window-wipers are now activated again."

ridgered4• 4 years ago

Didn't this already happen with some motorcycle safety system that required a monthly payment or it would get disabled?

blippage• 4 years ago

The more that time passes, the more reality resembles a Philip K Dick novel, where you have to pay money to open a door and cereal boxes and newspapers (read "internet") had animations that tried to push product. PKD's satire on consumerism sure is turning uncomfortably prescient.

I'm expecting some kind of crescendo of insanity until we finally hit the reset button.

bgdkbtv• 4 years ago

As a long time fanboy of BMW... they keep breaking my heart. First their questionable design choices, now this.

atwood22• 4 years ago

Super weird decision from BMW. The brand is all about luxury and performance at all costs. Trying to nickel and dime on seat heaters just seems cheap.

nprateem• 4 years ago

It's the thin end of the wedge. Want to use the stereo, unlock remotely, etc etc?

bluGill2• 4 years ago

The question is will customers stand for it. I know as a used car buyer I won't the subscription so that means the car doesn't have heated seats and is valued that way compared to a different car that does have it. In turn that means BMW is risking lower resale value, and resale is a factor in new car price.

bearmode• 4 years ago

It's very par-for-the-course for BMW, they have been nickel and diming for years.

rockinghigh4• 4 years ago

BMW did the same when they charged $80/year for Apple CarPlay for their 2019 models. They stopped shortly after.

mwexler• 4 years ago

As a long time BMW buyer, the brand lost me when they floated this plan. The writing was on the wall: they see themselves as a lifestyle, not a car brand, and we'll see more desperate attempts to make consumers a subscription instead of a purchaser. Everyone wants to be Apple, which gets a feedline of subscription revenue from phone purchasers.

Note the odd logo change around this time as well (2020 or so), another sign of their attempts to "reinvent" themselves as a services company. https://bimmertips.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/BMW_logo_o... (via https://bimmertips.com/bmw-logo-history-origin/) in one picture, and BMW's take at https://www.bmw.com/en/automotive-life/bmw-logo-meaning-hist....

I miss the days when BMW just made really fun cars that I was willing to overpay for, helping my dealer and the factory stay profitable.

jen203• 4 years ago

They had stopped this before 2019.

2457013579• 4 years ago

Seems a small step after Tesla’s $2000-$3000 “acceleration boost” software update that came out in December of 2019.

https://electriccarpledge.com/tesla-acceleration-boost/

pornel• 4 years ago

I can imagine the performance boost putting higher strain on the battery, increasing wear and risk of overheating various components that are under warranty, so unlocks like these could be less than pure greed.

21435• 4 years ago

I seriously hope this doesn't catch on.

For cars with internal combustion engines, the company tends to get constant income via service thanks oil filters, other filters, and a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be replaced (assuming people take it to authorised service centers, which I assume most people do when the car is relatively new).

With the transition to EV, those avenues dry up because EVs need lesser maintenance (as per my understanding).

So, are they trying to create new recurring income sources due to the possibility of existing such incomes drying up?

EveYoung• 4 years ago

Isn't this just a new way to pay for already existing options? Instead of paying the full cost in advance, you can spread it over the product's lifetime, and once the car gets resold, the new buyer can "configure" it as they prefer.

benj1112• 4 years ago

How much are you suggesting heated seats cost? What would an average owner pay over the lifetime of the vehicle?

21435• 4 years ago

That's assuming manufacturers wouldn't already include the price of rentable hardware in the cost of the car.

Would any manufacturers do that?

Why would a manufacturer fit in hardware for heated seats into a car, and not charge you for it? Because they hope you will subscribe to the heated seats?

This argument breaks down in markets like India, middle East, Malaysia etc where it's hot and humid, and nobody would want to use heated seats. If you don't subscribe, then it'll be a loss for the manufacturers who included the hardware and not charged you for it.

Of course, the sane thing would be to not offer heated seats at all in such markets, but as things stand today, heated seats are offered in these hot places (and nobody uses them AFAIK).

In the subscription-based future, here's how I think it'll be like:

- heated-seat hardware will be present in the car

- heated seats will be a rentable option

- manufacturers would include the price for it anyway in the cost of the car

=> customers lose

Cars are expensive as it is, so manufacturers can totally get away with it.

gaze• 4 years ago

This isn't how things are priced. They ask what they can get. If they could ask for more money for the car, why wouldn't they?

t0mas883• 4 years ago

I think people over-estimate that because most EVs are very new. Of course this is n=1 type data, but the service cost on engine related things for my several years old BMW are quite low compared to other items. They replace the oil once the computer wants it, which is every 30,000 to 40,000km, so less than once a year for most users. And that's all engine costs I've had over the years.

But I do have maintenance costs associated with this type of car. It's more things like replacing tires at least once a year (which I think high torque EVs will do even faster), then at about 100k miles they replaced the wishbones / control arms.

Those things get more expensive on high-end cars with things like software damper control, larger rims etc, all of which Tesla (just picking an EV) also has.

throwaway0a5e3• 4 years ago

I think people over-estimate that because most EVs are very new

And they're expensive. So the people who can afford them were already the kind of people driving well kept newish stuff so all they got to experience were recalls and the early part of the bathtub curve.

Parts on a car more or less wind up needing to be serviced more or less in direct correlation to hose close to the road they are. But if you're trading in every ~5yr your experience you won't see that because your experience will all be the early failures part of the bathtub curve.

Basically everyone doing all the talking right now doesn't know what they don't know.

alldayeveryday• 4 years ago

It's more things like replacing tires at least once a year (which I think high torque EVs will do even faster), then at about 100k miles they replaced the wishbones / control arms.

I've not heard of tires that need replacing once a year, unless you are doing an insane amount of driving. Tires are generally lasting 50k, 60k, even 85k miles. Can you elaborate on the scenarios that require yearly tire replacements?

manmal• 4 years ago

Fully agree.

Maintenance costs for my gen 1 Ioniq are ca 60% compared to my previous ICE Kia. Of course this is a welcome change, but it‘s not like switching to an EV means no costs beside electricity.

The power train per se will probably never need paid maintenance, but they do check the coolant and brakes lines every year, clean the AC, resolve system warnings, replace filters etc.

And then there’s tires - you can easily pay 2k for new 22“ rims + tires, and expect a sporty EV to go through those tires quickly. In most regions you‘ll also change tires regularly, which alone can cost 200 bucks per year in a shop (including balancing which is a good idea if you‘re into driving fast).

Tire costs dilute EV savings a lot, to put it mildly.

ZeroGravitas2• 4 years ago

Renting stuff is economically efficient as long as you don't let the actual owners abuse the relationship to their benefit.

We've not had a good track record of that in the past, but still worth keeping in mind as a general principle.

horsawlarway2• 4 years ago

So I'm going to jump on you here because this line is wrong, in this case.

Renting stuff is economically efficient as long as you don't let the actual owners abuse the relationship to their benefit.

Renting is economically efficient when there is a limited supply of the item, and renting allows the item to be used more often & efficiently then it would with if it were owned.

A simple example: It is much more efficient to have a single lawn-mower that you and your neighbors can rent, rather than having every lawn owner buy a mower that sits unused 99% of the time. It is cheaper to rent than buy so the folks save money on mower expense, less waste is produced because there are fewer mowers, and the item sits idle far less. The downside is the coordination required to use the rented item - it may not always be available, or available when any given person would like it to be.

NONE OF THAT FUCKING MATTERS WHEN THE ITEM IN QUESTION IS HEATED SEATS!!!!

No one is able to use those "rented" heated seats when you're not using them. They will never be taken out of the car. There is literally no way to more efficiently allocate this item when rented rather than bought, unless the entire car is rented (in which case... moot point).

So this case cannot be anything other than abuse by owners. There are no efficiency savings to be had. The item won't be allocated more efficiently, it will just provide additional revenue.

Essentially - the argument that renting is more efficient UTTERLY fails when the item being rented is essentially the on/off switch to a thing built into an item you own. It's ALWAYS going to stay part of the item you own, and there is no way to re-allocate it when you are not renting it.

This is a scummy, scummy move. It should be illegal.

woofyman4• 4 years ago

In 15 years, I’ve only been to the dealer for recalls.

RamRodification• 4 years ago

How does that affect second-hand value for you (if you intend to ever sell)? Where I live, a lack of documentation from official or authorized dealership servicing is a big red flag when buying a used car.

KoftaBob• 4 years ago

the company tends to get constant income via service thanks oil filters, other filters, and a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be replaced (assuming people take it to authorised service centers, which I assume most people do when the car is relatively new).

I'm not sure how it works in other countries, but in the US, the vast majority of official car dealerships are owned by the franchiser of that dealership, not the car company itself.

This is what caused the conflicts between Tesla and certain US states who had car dealership groups lobbying to ban Tesla from owning their own dealerships/service centers.

Outside of replacement parts specific to the car, like a bumper, most service income goes straight to the dealership franchiser owner, not the car company.

nradov• 4 years ago

Some EVs actually require more maintenance. For example, due to incompetent engineering and sloppy assembly, Tesla ranks below most ICE vehicles.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/18/tesla-ranks-30th-in-unoffici...

saxonww• 4 years ago

I'm not a Tesla owner or fan, but this article doesn't quite say that. It reports on the JD Power and Associates dependability ranking, which is based on surveys of owner complaints about anything with their cars; Tesla ranks higher than average in number of complaints.

The only supporting quote about Tesla in the article: "Tesla owners reported more problems with their exterior and interior than with other systems like propulsion, battery or infotainment and navigation. However, some did complain about troubles with Tesla’s in-vehicle voice recognition." IMO this supports the sloppy assembly claim, but not the incompetent engineering claim. It jives with what I've heard about Tesla cars, that the fit and finish is not what you'd expect for this class of car.

rockinghigh4• 4 years ago

Neither this article nor my personal experience with Tesla support your claim.

Tesla owners reported more problems with their exterior and interior than with other systems like propulsion, battery or infotainment and navigation.

Tesla issues aren't about maintenance, they are mostly about quality control. Maintenance on Tesla is simple: air filters, brakes, tires, air conditioning.

https://www.tesla.com/support/car-maintenance

ubermonkey4• 4 years ago

Not for nothing, but BMW realizes very little post-first-sale service dollars because they bake that into the price of the car.

If you go and buy a new 3-series this afternoon, you pay for your gas and that's pretty much it. All your scheduled maintenance is included, and you may even end up with a tire plan (wise on some of these cars; Z-rated rubber is pricey, and urban areas can eat tires) so the rubber ends up "included" too.

ynniv• 4 years ago

Sadly, not anymore. In 2017 they replaced the comprehensive 4yr/50k mile "BMW Maintenance Program" with the 3yr/36k mile "BMW Ultimate Care", and it only covers fluids, filters, and spark plugs.

https://www.bmwusa.com/explore/bmw-value/bmw-maintenance/ter...

https://www.consumerreports.org/bmw/bmw-reduces-free-mainten...

_ea1k6• 4 years ago

I always just assumed that program was meant to encourage tradeins after the free maintenance period ends. That kicks off the next profit cycle via a used car sale and another new car sale.

Its a trap! And probably one that customers are pretty happy with.

saiya-jin3• 4 years ago

Official service centers are a bad joke though. Especially for BMW you pay 2.5x the work of other, good service (tested this on oil change, liquids were the same). Then they also screw you on parts prices. Suffice to say I never went there again.

I never saw the reason to buy new cars which drop value tremendously in first 5 years, I am certainly not that rich to not mind. I rather buy 6-7 years old, BMW in this case, do maintenance in good unofficial garage and drive the car to the ground. If you find one, stick with it till you die.

First car (BMW E46 3-series) bought for 25% price of new, maintenance costs rather minimal, drove it for 10 years till clutch/transmission literally died.

Now we have again BMW (5-series F10 wagon), bought for 20% of the new, 6 years/90k km old. Obviously no clue how it will behave in future, but we paid 80k less for really premium safe family car, and my yearly maintenance costs have been around 500$ per year.

People sometimes do stupid decisions when they are driven mainly by emotions.

elzbardico• 4 years ago

Other than oil and filters, which you don't need to buy from the manufacturer, most new cars don't need much engine maintanance. On the other side, suspension, brakes and tires are much more subject to wear and the need of replacement, and in a heavier car, there's a big chance that you'll need even more frequent maintainance of such itens.

more_corn• 4 years ago

There’s an easy way to make sure this doesn’t catch on. Never buy a car from any car company that does this. Advocate loudly for never buying a car from a company that does this. The market will speak. We are the market.

dreamcompiler• 4 years ago

I don't think this is the biggest reason. It's because most cars now come with always-online LTE modems and everything is software-controlled. Couple that with a product VP who wants to make his bones and you get "turn everything into a continuing revenue stream." Doesn't matter whether the car is electric or ICE.

IOW, they're doing it because they can.

The solutions are:

1. Don't buy these cars.

2. Hack the software and share that knowledge.

3. Install a 50-cent switch to apply power to the seat heaters directly.

4. Disable the goddamned modem and share that knowledge too.

CogitoCogito2• 4 years ago

It would be nice if someone could figure out how to hack these into working without a subscription.

Ajedi32• 4 years ago

That should indeed be possible. And ideally it'd be illegal for the manufacturer to try to stop you.

I've thought about this a bit, and I feel like many of these sort of abuses could be mitigated rather elegantly with some sort of right-to-repair type legislation focused on providing consumers with the ability to modify their property as they see fit. Far less costly than trying to anticipate and ban every possible anti-feature manufacturers could build into their products.

kabes2• 4 years ago

As long as it stays an additional option next to permanent buying it I don't see the problem. Maybe I didn't care for heated seats zt time of purchase, but suddenly it's a very cold winter and I want it for a couple of months. Or someone wants to buy my car, but really wants heated seats can now do so.

N19PEDL2• 4 years ago

As per my understanding, you already paid for the heated seats when you bought the car, as they are already installed on board. What you are required to do is to pay a monthly fee in order to use something you already own.

rexf• 4 years ago

They are not requiring you to pay a monthly fee. The feature is available as a $18 monthly fee OR a 1 time $406 fee.

[TFA](https://www.motor1.com/news/597376/bmw-heated-seats-subscrip...) says:

Should you want the feature permanently, that'll set you back $406.

bengale2• 4 years ago

I wasn't particularly impressed when I got my new 4 series and had to pay £20 or something like that for auto-highbeams, even if it is a one off.

I can sort of understand a subscription for the speed camera data, although its a bit cheap, but for the lights it seemed mad.

wodenokoto• 4 years ago

20 quid plus minus on the sticker price doesn’t matter at all.

20 quid after the purchase is quite an annoyance.

Why didn’t they just add it to the sticker price and everyone would have been happier.

varjag• 4 years ago

There's a department for vehicle add on services at BMW, they have to have their own turnover.

bengale2• 4 years ago

Yeah that was my general feeling. I'm paying upwards of £40k for the car and the first day I press a button and get told I can "buy" the feature, not a good experience.

ehnto2• 4 years ago

Dealer options have been around for a long time, but usually the equipment isn't already fitted to the car, the dealer has to add it. I think that's why this approach feels so inauthentic. Your car has the equipment, but you're not allowed to use it, even though it's there, and you own it...

senectus1• 4 years ago

so you buy the car, fully equipped with the heat seating... but you can't turn it on unless you pay a subscription fee?

I had to double check this wasn't an Onion article.

thats one of the most dumbest brand burning idea's I've ever seen. I'm happy enough with my Mid range Rav4 Hybrid that comes with seat heaters and no subscription fee thanks...

dexterdog2• 4 years ago

It's not a terrible idea for a lot of stuff. It's much more economical to add many features on all vehicles than to package them. Then you can individual menu out the items to the people who want them.

mnkmnk• 4 years ago

If it is economical, the benefits must be passed on to the consumers. Maybe luxury cars have become commoditised and BMW can’t think of any new innovative thing to charge for so this is what they do.

james_pm• 4 years ago

https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscrip...

In case you thought Toyota wouldn't do the same thing.

DesiLurker5• 4 years ago

eventually it'll be subscription advanced airbags (as opposed to basic ones) bundled with remote start and sirius.

ClumsyPilot5• 4 years ago

We are rapidly moving towards Feudalism.

If someone can charge you for using things you already bought and 'own', then average man has no property rights. The fee could be increased at any time, or new fees could be introduced.

As the housing crysis deepens, average person will never own a home either.

So average person will be in the same position as a medieval serf, conpletely dependand on the whims of the lord, probably living in debt starting from the student loan and dying in debt.

andrekandre2• 4 years ago

  > If someone can charge you for using things you already bought and 'own', then average man has no property rights.

it seems a natural progression once you've saturated the market and new avenues are closed to further growth; you find a way to add subscriptions and "value adds"...

alexpotato• 4 years ago

We've all ready reached that for lots of other parts of the consumer spectrum.

e.g. you used to own your music and movie collection but now you rent access to it via Spotify, Amazon Music, Netflix etc

Even games: it used to be it was YOUR game but now you pay a subscription.

ausbah• 4 years ago

I think the value proposition with stuff like Spotify is different. a.) there are still services where you can own your copy of the music, there is still - at least some semblance of - consumer choice. b.) the amount and variety of music I listen to on Spotify and pay per month is WAY more than paying for individual songs (at least personally)

tayo42• 4 years ago

I think of Spotify as an evolution of radio. You can even just pay with your attention by listening to ads instead of money.

You can still purchase all of that media if you want

jcpst• 4 years ago

What’s funny is how ethics around this get compartmentalized. I still refuse to use spotify because it’s only a viable model for the biggest artists (I buy digital albums mostly).

But then I don’t seem to stop myself from using Netflix.

bleuchase• 4 years ago

You’ll own nothing. And you’ll be happy.

farisjarrah• 4 years ago

Conversely, I been seeing more people then ever riding, building and modifying electric and motorized bicycles. You can modify a regular $200 mountain bike with a $200 motor kit from amazon and have a $400 motorcycle that you don’t need a motorcycle license for. If you really don’t want to burn fossil fuels, a $1000 bafang mid drive ebike kit can turn a regular bicycle into a hill crushing monster and can be installed with almost no specialized tools.

The housing crisis is definitely a tougher nut to crack, but I don’t believe the auto manufacturers have quite the same leverage over the American population long term, especially if gas prices and electric vehicle prices keep skyrocketing significantly faster then inflation.

ClumsyPilot5• 4 years ago

If you really don’t want to burn fossil fuels, a $1000 bafang mid drive ebike kit can turn a regular bicycle into a hill crushing monster and can be installed with almost no specialized tools.

I love electric bikes and want to install the bafang kit myself, but lets keep things in perspective - it's not gonna get my pregnant wife to the hospital.

lghh2• 4 years ago

I would love to live somewhere where an electric bike is an option, but for many of us it is a non-starter.

akudha• 4 years ago

more people then ever

More people than ever maybe, but that is a tiny fraction of the number of cars, at least in the U.S. It is like saying more people than ever are turning vegetarian/vegan. Yes, it is true, but it is still a miniscule number in the grand scheme of things, and the the change is way too slow/small to have any real impact, at least in my life time.

I love Jetbrains products, it was irritating when they went subscription model. Tableau did the same. I guess it is just a matter of time before everyone started doing it, both in digital and real world. Next would be what? 10 bucks for my washing machine that I own, $10 for my fridge, $10 for my air conditioning, stove, vacuum cleaner...

I don't know how we can fight back. They will keep pushing and pushing trying to eek out every possible cent. There are products we can simply stop using, but cars (at least in the U.S) are much difficult to avoid, outside of cities like NYC. Much of the country is built for cars

countvonbalzac• 4 years ago

The built environment in most of the US is based entirely around the idea that you get in your car whenever you want to go anywhere. It's going to take a massive re-engineering of society to fix that, but it's totally worth it.

foobarian• 4 years ago

At least it will not be illegal to move.

DontchaKnowit• 4 years ago

See : The Great Reset by Klaus Schwab

winternett• 4 years ago

I was ranting about this 2 years ago and a lot of people laughed it off...

I cited an auto start feature o VOLVO cars that required a siriusXM membership.

It's unfathomable that we reached this point of monthly subscriptions being implemented on things that we've already paid for. It's the first sign that we're in for a wave of not feudalism, but outright economic slavery. There is no rational consumer protection against many predatory business practices, and many are eager to be a part of monthly subscriptions for useless services for lord knows what motivational reason.

Mike Judge was a genius for making the movie Idiocracy, it's our future. No way around it now. :[

nathanaldensr• 4 years ago

There is a way, but you're not going to like it, and we can't discuss it on HN.

_ea1k6• 4 years ago

I cited an auto start feature o VOLVO cars that required a siriusXM membership.

As much as I dislike that kind of fee, it at least makes sense. The remote communication support isn't free.

simplyaccont• 4 years ago

volvo does not require siriusxm (which is satellite radio) for auto-start. it requires Volvo On Call subscription (you get one for free for first 3 years). And it's kinda reasonable, because Volvo On Call works via LTE and somebody needs to pay for it

duxup• 4 years ago

I certainly don't like it for cars and etc.

But I don't mind it for some things. I have no interest in owning a pile of movies, music and etc.

jollybean• 4 years ago

No, this is not what feudalism is.

Consumer finance is a real thing.

Before these financial innovations - people could not by homes, or ironically cars. They could not 'insure' themselves against fire etc..

Being able to 'buy a feature' on a monthly basis, instead of paying up front for it, actually may have some benefits.

That said, obviously if people just want to buy it they can/should do that.

tomohawk• 4 years ago

That's the plan (at least according to the World Economic Forum)

"Welcome to 2030. I own nothing, have no privacy, and life has never been better"

https://twitter.com/wef/status/813869325635424256

bko2• 4 years ago

Relax, it's just heated seats. It's user hostile and I imagine they'll drop it because it'll be seen as annoying.

There are real problems with housing affordability but a subscription to heated seats in a luxury car is not indicative of a bigger issue.

ChrisRR• 4 years ago

People relaxing on shitty behaviour is how you end up with a subscription for heated seats in the first place

avidphantasm• 4 years ago

No, they will be worse off than serfs. Serfs could still grow their own food (though of course they had to pay tribute to the landlord) and they had way more festivals and days off.

bbertelsen• 4 years ago

I was reviewing my Steam library recently and thought to myself. How would I access these games without Steam? What happens when I die? Can I sell my Steam library? I realized I don't own anything other than a temporary license to use the software.

mmmpop3• 4 years ago

What happens when I die? Can I sell my Steam library?

HN frowns upon trolling.

aeyes• 4 years ago

Do those that 'own' a home today in the US really own it?

You still have to pay property tax against the "property value" which is a completely arbitrary number set by an outsider. If you don't pay, you lose your home - that is not my definition of ownership.

coffeeblack3• 4 years ago

Good point, don’t understand why it’s downvoted. Could people who downvote leave a comment with their reason?

Jaepa• 4 years ago

It's kind of a false equivalence to compare taxes, to something like rent.

If you wanted an argument for not owning housing, a better argument would be something like zoning restrictions.

abeppu• 4 years ago

But where did you get your definition of ownership?

Property taxes in the US predate the US as an independent country. Do you think the owner should be able to set the value? Should anyone be able to declare that their property is worth $0 and therefore no tax is owed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax_in_the_United_Sta...

coffeeblack3• 4 years ago

I read somewhere that, in the future, “you will own nothing and you will be happy”.

_fat_santa2• 4 years ago

I have to disagree because at the end of the day, the consumer has a choice. BMW, Stellantis and other car makers are charging subscriptions for features. I see an immediate solution: buy another car.

I see this argument a ton, people complain that new cars are too expensive, super high monthly payments and subscription features. Yes these are all problems but they are only problems if you choose to buy a new car. Seems that folks forget in these arguments that there is a sea of affordable, reliable used cars without any of the bullshit they add to new cars these days, at a fraction of the cost of a new car.

ghostpepper• 4 years ago

Buying an old car doesn’t really solve the problem in general, it just solves it for you, temporarily.

johnwalkr• 4 years ago

Kind of true but also not as true as it was pre-COVID. Used car prices skyrocketed during COVID to the point that people are selling their 2-3 year old cars for more than current new MSRP. And a 10 year old Corolla is often more than $10k. Prices are just now starting to come back down, but probably not to pre-COVID prices.

panick21_3• 4 years ago

We are rapidly moving towards Feudalism.

I hate when people say that. This has literally nothing to do with the historic institution of feudalism. Its is the opposite of actually educating people on actual feudalism.

Its just using historical terms that people call not to be 'bad' so you don't actually have to explain the problem.

We are literally talking about people who can buy a BMW. Did BMW promise them heated seats when they sold it to you? Would you feel better if the service worker at the dealer would rip out 5mm of tubes to 'break' the heated seat? Would that make it Ok?

Also, this is the extreme, extreme minority of features from an extreme minority of cars, by the extreme of car manufactures. Calling this 'rapidly moving to Feudalism' is way overly dramatic.

As the housing crysis deepens, average person will never own a home either.

High amount of home ownership is not the same as having a high quality of live. And its also not really accurate.

So average person will be in the same position as a medieval serf, conpletely dependand on the whims of the lord,

The lord who sold the serf a BMW?

probably living in debt starting from the student loan and dying in debt.

Many people manage to pay of their student loans and don't have to live in debt if they don't want to.

Many people want to take on debt in order to consume now rather then later, being in debt is not actually necessary bad.

bsedlm• 4 years ago

Many people manage to pay of their student loans and don't have to live in debt if they don't want to.

yikes... this strikes me as quite similar to this line of reasoning: "poor people are poor because they just don't want to work"

throw93232• 4 years ago

Feudalism was more like slavery. Serfs could not marry, move or own land without permission. Serfs could be sold (not individuals but entire villages). Comparing it to BMW ownership is disgusting!

scottLobster2• 4 years ago

If it works for BMW, why wouldn't it work for Ford, Toyota and GM? The financial incentive will cause these user-hostile subscriptions to spread, and probably to more than just heated seats, if/when the model is proven.

The analogy to feudalism might be stretched in the literal sense, but most people use the term as a substitute for "you own nothing and are subject to the whims of the owner".

And there's a lot of truth to that for the average person, compared to conditions even 20 years ago. With regard to heated seats, my 22 year old car has heated seats. They have never required a subscription, and they are mine for as long as they function/are repairable. Now you can argue that, theoretically, car companies could charge less for the car up front and make it up on the subscriptions, so the consumer will see increased customization and savings, and the car company will make the same amount of money instead of more money! If you believe that I have a subscription to a bridge to sell you for $19.99 a month.

zasdffaa2• 4 years ago

It's some weird mindset of can't-do speaking there. Maybe a sliver of truth but just failure dialling in to HN. They never offer anything useful, just want to feel important in their nihilism. They are a disease.

tomc1985• 4 years ago

Sounds like someone is trying to morally justify their success off the back of those sweet, sweet subscription revenues.

Heated seats is a luxury, sure. But what about music? Kitchen appliances? Movies and TV? Productivity software? Transportation?

All these things are things we own much less of (or "own," as it were, since we got to keep physical custody of the bits, and they didn't try to authenticate against a web service)

The situation is positively feudal, people are sharecropping increasingly large parts of their lives. And the lords sit in their castles, surrounded by yes-men, pushing the limits of legality and ignoring the cries of the people that make their businesses happen.

ben_w• 4 years ago

Many people manage to pay of their student loans and don't have to live in debt if they don't want to.

Probably varies a lot by location. IIRC, the UK government's own report on their current university fee/loan structure anticipates a large number of people paying off their loans so slowly that they will end up being written off.

I think this counts as both a stealth tax and stealth government borrowing.

ClumsyPilot5• 4 years ago

this is the extreme, extreme minority of features from an extreme minority of cars, by the extreme of car manufactures.

the problem is you don't see the big picture: all modern tractors are internet connected and farmers are not allowed to repair them.

all TVs are smart, you cant't buy a new 'dumb' TV. Philips recently added adslvertisements to TVs people bought years ago.

This isn't some niche thing that won't affect you, this is a paradigme shift like we haven't seen in a century.

if you rent an apartment in 2050, it will come with a smart oven, frisge and toilet. The oven will be brans-locked to wallmart and if you buy food somewhere else it will refuse to turn on with the warning "unauthorised substance detected"

phasersout• 4 years ago

the same thing with games and that you only own a license of a game and not the game itself.

Started with WoW and getting kicked for "using" exploits which are ultimately just faults in a product that I purchased - why should I as a customer know and care for what an exploit is and what not?

blown_gasket• 4 years ago

The goods that are sold are available to be sold based-off what people have chosen to buy or what is seen as a solution to a problem.

Example: Manual transmissions available for sale in the United States vs Europe. Europe has many more available to be sold new than the United States at maybe 3% and dwindling.

I see the only reason that smart-TVs are some prominent now is that the market for those eclipsed the market for dumb-TVs. While there are individuals that would like a dumb-TV, I've seen them post on HN, outliers don't make a sustainable market for revenue.

If individuals don't purchase the subscription, it won't be a revenue stream and then decision-making individuals should make decisions to change it.

The housing market is another conversation altogether.

nimbius• 4 years ago

its lately been coined "technocratic neofeudalism"

vasco• 4 years ago

If you want to know more about the history of IP laws and how it relates to this concept of modern age feudalism where someone owns all the rights on anything of value, this is an excellent book: https://thenewpress.com/books/information-feudalism

andrekandre2• 4 years ago

  > A similar subscription plan is offered for a heated steering wheel and it costs $10 per month, $92 annually, and $161 for three years. You can also buy it outright for $222.

isnt this what in the old days was what they (adam smith et al) meant when they talked about economic rents and (rent) free markets...?

analog31• 4 years ago

I can see it for some exterior feature of the car such as gold plated trim or fancy rims, but you would really have to be "in the know" about this brand, to know that someone has paid an extra $18/mo for this feature. Unless you ride with them.

Still, if this becomes a way that I can get a cheaper car by declining all of the add-ons, or if it lowers the price of used cars, I'll be happy.

Jemm• 4 years ago

People who pay a subscription to use an item they bought for are part of the problem.

GoToRO• 4 years ago

The people should charge BMW more for renting space in their car for seat heaters.

tomxor2• 4 years ago

Don't forget the rent for the parking space, they don't come cheap these days.

gfunk911• 4 years ago

This seems no different than Intel manufacturing fewer distinct things and using CPU locking to sell at more price points.

https://www.techopedia.com/definition/2239/cpu-lock

It’s cheaper to physically put the functionality in all the cars than to differentiate at assembly time. We don’t have the same visceral reaction to paying for options at the dealer.

(I am assuming they aren’t adding this charge RETROACTIVELY. That’s very different)

atty• 4 years ago

I’d be fine if every vehicle had the hardware in it and it was activated via an upsell at the dealership. I think the truly insidious thing here is the subscription aspect, for all the various reasons other people in the responses have stated. I’m ok with Intel doing the same thing. But if Intel started selling AVX512 with a monthly subscription I’d ever buy an Intel chip again.

norman7842• 4 years ago

Isn’t that most of the low end processors have deffects, so they trim down (yes, blocking some features, cores, etc) and selling you at lower prices, but the thing is, you know beforehand what are you buying, without any hidden subscription, etc, also is cheaper than the full featured one, so I’m not particularly mad about it.

xuhu• 4 years ago

Are you paying Intel $18 per month for your extra cores ?

thrtythreeforty• 4 years ago

No, although IBM did the same thing with mainframes, and yes customers did make a phone call to unlock some extra hardware. Or pay per instruction executed. IBM had lots of creative ways to charge for mainframes.

naasking8• 4 years ago

You are correct, it is no different, and it's wrong when Intel does it too, assuming the CPU hardware really is identical and it's purely a software lock that the user can't work around.

jmrm2• 4 years ago

If companies continues adding more subscription options in more models it will make some aftermarket electronic modules, or simply jailbreak hacks, to bypass those locks. It happened already in the Tesla, and I don't think it will stop here.

norman7842• 4 years ago

This is pure speculation, but I suspect that they have some kind of DRM to prevent you on using those features, that means if you break a DRM, then you are at fault here, while I don’t agree, this seems similar to the case of one wheel that they block the motherboard if you unplug the battery, if you plug again the same battery it doesn’t matter, the motherboard is already blocked, and because of intellectual property (I don’t remember the details on what they did) you cannot "hack" the motherboard without breaking the law.

This is becoming so sad in all aspects, soon this kind of practices will get to PCs? where the motherboard will also have subscriptions, even maybe cpu and gpu.

jmrm2• 4 years ago

This is sadly already happening. In Europe, car garages need to update their diagnosis machines, or even pay[1], to get some keys from Renault to being able to do anything in their newer models. Even their low-cost subbranch Dacia need those keys. They say they do that to prevent attacks from the OBD port (used commonly to steal cars).

This not only is absolutely an anti-consumer practice, but also is probably a pretty temporal and ineffective solution to prevent your car being stolen[2].

Nowadays, is pretty common to need to program some kind of electronic module in the car for some parts replacements, and with that, they are preventing people and small and new car garages to do that kind of repairs. Heck, even the TPMS control module need to "re-learn" "where is who" when you rotate your tyres.

[1]: Usually diagnosis machines have a subscription-based system where they provide you not only new car models software packages, but also instructions about how to do part replacements.

[2]: AFAIK, most stolen cars are really easy to stole (like the 80s/90s Honda's) or really valuable (and they provide tools, ECMs, or whatever they need to stole them).

macNchz• 4 years ago

There's already a pretty mature world of apps that interface with BMWs to turn features on and off, even my 14 year old BMW has hundreds of features you can toggle with an iOS app+OBD dongle. Everything from changing how the sunroof switch behaves to modifying the front-rear split of the all wheel drive.

I imagine it will become a bit of a cat and mouse game as they try to block access to paid features, though it's ultimately a moot point for me, as it's obvious where the company is going and I'm never buying a new BMW again.

DesiLurker5• 4 years ago

with jailbreaking they'll just void the warranty. I wouldn't be surprised if that clause is already buried somewhere in the purchase agreement.

ubermonkey4• 4 years ago

BMW has already shown itself to be skeevy by attempting to charge a fee for Apple's CarPlay; fortunately, if memory serves, they backed down from that.

I'll never buy another BMW, and I won't buy a car from a company that follows suit. It's gross.

aabhay3• 4 years ago

Am I the only one that actually likes this idea? I live in Austin, where we only need heated seats like three months out of the year at most. On top of that, if I pay $999 for heated seats as an addon, that’s equivalent to 4.5 years of subscription at $18/m. If I could turn off lots of features while I’m on vacation, etc. I think that’s a huge win. But clearly I’m in the extreme minority.

basicplus22• 4 years ago

Or...you could put a switch on your dash that turns the heaters on and off as you wish..

chrisseaton8• 4 years ago

That just means you're paying the same money up front rather than as a subscription. Why's that better?

therouwboat• 4 years ago

But your seats have heating elements anyway, do you think bmw is taking loss if you dont buy subscription?

aabhay3• 4 years ago

They recuperate the cost in economies of scale since they don't have to sell multiple models of seats.

post_break• 4 years ago

The components are already in the car, adding complexity and cost to the purchase. What happens when BMW turns off the servers running the licensing for your car? No more heated seats period. Who would want to buy the car from you knowing the heated seats are subscription based? Does the car have wifi or do you have to also pay for a cell connection for the car to activate these features? It's madness the whole way down.

aabhay3• 4 years ago

My current BMW comes with both a Wi-Fi chip and a 3G chip, at no recurring cost. Seems quite feasible for me to connect to the car via app and pay on my phone.

jen203• 4 years ago

I’ve never once used my heated seats in Austin, but am absolutely annoyed the only way to get VENTILATED seats is to buy a super high end car with a much bigger engine than I want.

krisoft• 4 years ago

I would be surprised if the end result is that you get your heated seats cheaper.

Either the car manufacturer won't let you subscribe month by month (sorry, you need to subscribe to a year at least, the rules!) or they will jack up the price where they are ahead even with just seasonal usage.

balderdash2• 4 years ago

Or they will make the frictional pain if unsubscribing painful, unsubscribe? Sure wait on hold on the phone for an hour and then you can unsubscribe..,

balderdash2• 4 years ago

Ok now I have second job managing all my subscriptions - can’t wait to have to call and subscribe/unsubscribe to the ice maker on my fridge, the dimming from function on my lights, the time zone function on my watch, increased battery life on my laptop, etc.

webmobdev• 4 years ago

It does make sense for extra add-ons / parts sometimes, for things you use occasionally, provided they are already not charging you for the part / add-on (which in this case BMW isn't - they allow you to pay for the heated seats monthly or yearly or purchase it outright). But remember that when you subscribe, you don't own the part / add-on. And if you only plan to use them for 3 months a year, it will not be profitable for them and they will realistically not allow it. Unless it is profitable for them, why would they turn something unnecessarily into a subscription service?

naasking8• 4 years ago

On top of that, if I pay $999 for heated seats as an addon, that’s equivalent to 4.5 years of subscription at $18/m.

If the heated seat is already built-in and they can still sell the car profitably for $999 less, then charging for this feature you already got and they already profited from is a pure money grab.

If Apple started selling iPhones that had the usual cameras built in, but you couldn't install any camera apps unless you paid them $18 per month, would you really be so enthusiastic?

Zenst• 4 years ago

Does somewhat seem to play into the dystopian economic models that we all love to read and watch, but not experience.

Though marketing models for things you already have, is just handing over money so you can enable a feature you own and they add nothing. No AI to measure your heating needs or add on's ahead, just money to turn on the heat with no added value.

Shame as when your business model is a death of an innocent away (say child died of hypothermia as unable to enable the heating) from a PR disaster - then it's in need of some adjustments. But certainly, will encourage people with little skill and lots of willingness to try modifying their cars they own.

siscia• 4 years ago

At first was a little uncomfortable with the change, but then I thought how much would it be today to add those optionals to a new car.

Checking from my phone, the heated steering wheel is more than 300$, which is more than what would cost the permanent upgrade in the car.

Now we should wonder, having a construction line and distribution system capable of handling optionals like the heated steering wheel, does it cost more or less than 300$? I don't think that the answer is obvious.

Would it be possible that the car get actually cheaper for the consumers?

Also having those optionals allow to turn them on and off at will. Maybe if I swap car with my SO it would like the heated seat that I never care for.

I see the dangerous of this, but I also see the benefits.

petesergeant• 4 years ago

Also, this means your car can be resold to someone who wants heated seats and a steering wheel, even if you didn't want it (and didn't have to pay for it).

technological• 4 years ago

I wish instead of subscription they make car more modular (I mean certain features). So I can opt out things I don’t want and add later

weberer• 4 years ago

"You will own nothing and you will be happy"

perfectstorm• 4 years ago

welcome to the new subscription economy courtesy of Apple and Google.

wonderwonder• 4 years ago

Article didn't really cover this but do you still have to pay more for a car that has the heated seats and steering wheel options and then a monthly fee to use them or do all the target cars in SK come with these features standard? If you have to pay more just to have the option of paying to turn on the subscription then that is insane.

nixpulvis• 4 years ago

This is almost an irrelevant point. If the hardware is installed and you own the damn car, you should be able to turn on the damn heaters.

Would be interesting to know I suppose though.

sumtechguy2• 4 years ago

It does seem to rub people the wrong way. Of a 'wait I have the part but you want 20 bucks a month for me to use it?!' get out of here.

I watched one restaurant try something like this. It was a fairly high end restaurant. They came in and started charging for salads. They were so proud of 500-1000 extra per month they were making. What they did not notice was their clientele just decided to not be treated like that. The place went from 2 hour wait to get into, to the servers fighting to get tables, within a year, out of business 2 years later. They could have put the cost into the meal and no one would have batted an eye. Instead they came off as cheap and gouging.

nicce2• 4 years ago

I guess some could try to sue BMW for including this extra waste and not accounting it in the price. The cost of renting the space for the waste and the energy for moving them around.

chewz• 4 years ago

Good news is that all bmw's come with all the options just turned off via software..

So be smart guys, this is called hacker news for a reason... Just buy bare metal bmw and turn all luxury options on... (and BMW is traditionally very dumb on security)...

_fat_santa2• 4 years ago

Hackers are rejoicing at this subscription movement because now they can get a fully loaded BMW for the price of a base model.

WXLCKNO• 4 years ago

Downloading these Tartufo merino leather seats for free.

Mo32• 4 years ago

Downloading a car has never become more realistic

dotancohen3• 4 years ago

  > Just buy bare metal bmw and turn all luxury options on

Bring My (own) Warmers.

mdtancsa• 4 years ago

I wonder if I could build and app / service for them -- TSOAS (aka Turn Shit Off As a Service) and charge them a small monthly fee to do it. BMW should be in the business of building cars, not pissing off people. They could outsource that to me as a service!

queuebert• 4 years ago

Purposefully dumb I suspect, because BMW has a strong modding enthusiast following.

growse2• 4 years ago

Except.... This isn't true.

I can't just "turn on" adaptive headlights because the vehicle doesn't have the necessary camera to scan the road for oncoming cars installed.

I can't just "turn on" adaptive cruise control, because my vehicle doesn't have the necessary front radar installed.

I can't just "turn on" the HUD, because my vehicle doesn't have the necessary dash components physically installed.

The number of different hardware permutations of most modern cars is eye-watering. For most options, if you didn't get it installed from the factory, you're looking at an expense retrofit.

Nowyouknow• 4 years ago

Check out Bimmercode to see what you do have access to.

rdsubhas• 4 years ago

Hello, this is your car insurance provider here. We noticed that you are driving a hacked car on the road. Your insurance is hereby cancelled. Thank you for paying your premiums so far.

ed_balls• 4 years ago

The question is how warranty and insurance be impacted by it.

LatteLazy• 4 years ago

When real interest rates and inflation are low, recurring revenue looks really attractive, because the NPV is high. That makes sense and I see how that drives subscription models for everything from movies to phones to car seats. But now interest rates are rising and inflation is high, I can't help but think BMW have missed the boat and are pursuing a model that would have been a great idea in 2008 but with hindsight will look dumb when 2030 people look back at us.

jms703• 4 years ago

I can see why a car manufacturer would not want to make two versions of each car, one with heated seats and one without. Instead, build it into all of them, and only activate and charge those that actually need it.

Also, the subscription is an option. You can also pay the full price for the feature.

Where I live, I could see using this once or two months a year. Whereas some would need it more and they might just buy the option outright.

themodelplumber• 4 years ago

Plus you could buy or make other economical heating solutions for your seats...BMW driver notwithstanding

athorax2• 4 years ago

It is mind blowing that this is something people are willing to accept. The feature is there, the ecological damage is done already by including those extra resources, and you've paid for the vehicle but don't actually own its capabilities.

winReInstall4• 4 years ago

+ Seat heaters are heavy. You drive them around all year long, they will show up on your fuel bill one way or another.

joenathanone• 4 years ago

Exactly, also you have already paid for them, since there is no way they are selling at a loss.

tekkk• 4 years ago

Well just include it in the price for everyone, duhh. It's just executives trying to squeeze every penny out of their customers. Next thing they'll try is making things subscriptions that ought to be always included. I understand the logic, once you sell one subscription it's easier to upsell more but it's heinous and I hope they'll be ridiculed for this years to come.

lamontcg• 4 years ago

Good way to make BMW drivers who aren't entirely filthy rich to start seeing the issues with capitalism.

Heated seats are unimportant in the scale of things, but this is also how capitalism approaches something you literally have no option to do without like health care.

Also since this is _Hacker_ news, it should probably be mentioned that a MIG welder could probably be used to put whatever seats you like into an old used BMW. Buy the body and powertrain that you want, cheaply, do your own maintenance, then fit the aftermarket bells and whistles yourself to make it comfortable.

devrand• 4 years ago

I can see why a car manufacturer would not want to make two versions of each car, one with heated seats and one without.

In the past this is just how "luxury" options trickled down into standard options. If it's more economical to just produce all cars with the option then it should just be an optimization passed on to the consumer.

I find this pretty surprising in the luxury car market. A lot of features that are standard on base model non-luxury cars are options on luxury cars.

Anyway, this subscription model raises other questions. For example, if I'm paying for the subscription and the seat heater breaks, who is responsible for the repair? Am I paying for a subscription (i.e. lease) of the hardware, or is it just a software subscription?

yegle• 4 years ago

This reminds me of the blue sweater scene in the Devil Wears Prada: https://youtu.be/us52N76XA28

jasomill• 4 years ago

Customers buying expensive cars are typically less price-sensitive than customers buying less expensive cars; high-end hotels charge for Wi-Fi service that's free at lower-end hotels in the same chain for the same reason.

asteroidbelt2• 4 years ago

Heating is an accessory like floor mat, it can be easily added or removed in 2 minutes. No, I don’t believe they try to save on production, but try to take last penny from a consumer: when you know you already have heater installed, you are probably more likely to pay for it, or pay for it half time (at least this is how they think about it).

bushbaba• 4 years ago

Build it in the car and offer a purchase option in the center console. Heck do A/B Testing where you offer a lifetime purchase (Upfront or monthly) and a monthly subscription. Then see which sells better.

stuckinhell• 4 years ago

You won't own anything, and you will be happy (not).

This is truly insane, its WORSE than feudalism. https://www.businessinsider.com/american-worker-less-vacatio...

cm42• 4 years ago

Do they have to pay extra for the turn signals too?

lkxijlewlf• 4 years ago

How soon until your car tells BMW that it's cold outside and BMW turns on the heated seats and puts an ad on your display, "For just $18/Month, this feature could be yours!"

mynegation• 4 years ago

If you want to know the future, read Philip K. Dick (this subject is straight from "Ubik") and Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End".

midhhhthrow4• 4 years ago

AS a consumer I absolutely hate subscriptions. I will never own a subscription to anything I can replace for something else. I bought solar panels to avoid electric subscription, etc. I never buy on credit, etc

thatsnotmepls• 4 years ago

What about your mobile data subscription? ISP subscription?

hellisothers• 4 years ago

I can sympathize not wanting subscriptions but credit, that’s a game to build wealth that is usually worth playing.

Clubber• 4 years ago

credit, that’s a game to build wealth that is usually worth playing.

He's talking about consumer goods which typically have a negative ROI.

dangus2• 4 years ago

Unpopular opinion: this could be a consumer benefit, although BMW doesn’t seem to quite have the value proposition exactly where I’d like it to be.

It’s cheaper to build fewer SKUs and variations of a product. The fact that the assembly line never has to change what they’re installing in the car could make heated seats cheaper in the first place.

BMW currently charges $500 for heated seats a la carte in the US, so that costs 1.76 times more than the 3 year subscription at $283. That means your breakeven point is at a little bit over 5 years, without considering present and future value of money.

I could see a lot of BMW owners being completely uninterested in owning the car after 5 years, with so many of them choosing to lease. It is a luxury car, after all.

Now, here’s the other thing, if you do the monthly plan, presumably you could unsubscribe in the summer. So that’s more like $54 a year if you need it for three months of the year. That puts your breakeven point at close to 10 years!

BMW does have a lifetime purchase option, too.

I hope these purchases are tied to the vehicle and not the owner, but I have my doubts on BMW being so benevolent.

I also think it would be ideal if hardware subscriptions like this would simply unlock once the car reaches a certain age to consider its depreciated status.

juve19962• 4 years ago

Yea, you can't use it in the summer and save those months. But what if BMW says "the costs went up, subscription price must raise."

Now in 3 years it's $25 a month.

This is the path. Companies exist for profit. They will only make customers as happy as they need to.

dangus2• 4 years ago

It's true that they've always existed for a profit. BMW doesn't operate in a bubble and has a wide selection of competitors, so if their pricing and terms are too unreasonable, customers will go elsewhere.

I think these connected services are aimed at lessees who are the bread and butter of BMW's business. Someone leasing this car would actually save money by "renting" the heated seats, next owner be damned.

Still, I'm definitely not trying to say that this is a wonderful, wonderful thing. But, considering that a "lifetime" purchase option still exists, I think this represents example of giving customers more options than they previously had.

labrador2• 4 years ago

Imagine paying a company $18 a month to warm your butt. Imagine going back in time and telling your great-grandfather you pay someone to warm your butt.

asteroidbelt2• 4 years ago

Imagine living in cold climate. Heated seats is very nice to have in certain places where temp below -20C is not uncommon.

(Paid monthly subscription is a different issue though.)

labrador2• 4 years ago

I come from a family where my father refused to use the AC in the car no matter how hot it was because it lowered the gas mileage

fny3• 4 years ago

What dumbass executive greenlighted this?

$18 per month over 10 years is $2,160. MSRP for the 2020 2 Series--BMW's cheapest sedan--is $35,300.

So instead of charging $2K--5% more--for heated seats out right they have no gone through the expense of (1) building the software, billing, and support infrastructure to manage this (2) pissing off customers.

I'm assuming they're also streamlining production by building heated seats into every car instead of selective models, but again, why not just go with a permanent upgrade model? Everyone buys heated seats, BWM provides a special chip to activate them.

athorax2• 4 years ago

Exactly. This is probably a $300 actual cost item they have to charge 5x for to pay for all the supporting infrastructure and software engineers

onlyrealcuzzo• 4 years ago

Yes, but this is the future they want to move to where you pay $60k for your car, but you need to also pay them $1k per month (for nothing) to drive it - obviously not including your insurance or gas.

To grow profits in excess of inflation in a saturated market, you must charge your costumers continuously more for the same product.

wingerlang• 4 years ago

I suspect the heated seats were/are just a simple thing they could add onto the infrastructure, which must support a lot more services than just the seats.

winReInstall4• 4 years ago

I find this great, let them build under priced cars, goto a shop and get the "all features go" chip welded in and pirated firmware. Shareholders financially supporting customers driving better then they could afford, the same fate that you can expect for tesla. Which reminds me what is the tesla dark quota? How many cars totally disappear from the always connected feature and never reconnect?

RansomStark• 4 years ago

These kind of initiatives aren't about the first customer. The person buying new will likely get a free subscription as part of some dealership deal, or will buy the feature outright at purchase time and wont notice. This is about rent seeking from the freeloaders.

That dumbass executive looked at the healthy used car market, got pissed that some people owned BMW's without paying their dues, and asked how to fix that.

This service allows a customer to purchase a feature outright, now do you think that feature belongs to the car, or does it belong to the customer? Will it transfer during a sale?

fny3• 4 years ago

Will it transfer during a sale?

Remember, the feature has a lifetime value. All that's happening here is those payments are being deferred. You could (1) charge the 10 year value outright or (2) charge it on a monthly basis.

In scenario 1, BMW captures the full value and basically allow their customers to negotiate the remaining value of the feature in the used car market. In scenario 2, BMW requires the second purchaser to enable the feature. It additionally requires that the feature never be turned off for an extended period of time. Say the car sits in a dealership lot for 6 months. Do they profit from the feature then?

Altogether it looks like they're trying to streamline production. It's likely a lot cheaper to have all the cars manufactured with heated seats and have some mechanism to enable them. Monthly subscription cost, however, seems insane.

Also, inflation is actually a counterargument for a strategy like this.

In inflationary environments, money today is worth more than money tomorrow. Also, can you imagine trying to hike subscription prices frequently to keep up with inflation?

woobar2• 4 years ago

The feature is sold for much less than $2K. In the article it mentions $400 for a lifetime subscription. What could be attractive to that executives is an opportunity to broaden the market for this feature.

I.e. instead of having only one chance to sell you this feature at the time of order, they now can let you trial this after the purchase. They might even run a promo during a cold streak for free (just like SiriusXM gives free access during major holidays). $18/mo is there just to make $406 number more attractive.

I think people are too distracted by the subscription aspect and missing the fact that the "conversion rate" for heated seats purchases could be improved.

fny3• 4 years ago

Didn't realize the lifetime sub was $400. I take it back, this is pretty clever.

SergeAx• 4 years ago

Probably, that guy in front of me just can't afford his turning lights subscription.

prsutherland• 4 years ago

Not clear if you need a car first, or if they will mail you a seat like the old netflix dvd model.

StanislavPetrov• 4 years ago

One of many reasons that when my current car gives out, I'm eyeing a 1970s era pickup. I like to actually own the things I buy, rather than being forced to pay subscription fees for features of a car I own. Or have components of the car that I own "phone home" with information about my vehicle, my driving habits or my location.

the-anarchist2• 4 years ago

Modern cars are all in all pretty awful. They are the posterboys of technology that took a wrong turn at some point. Modern engines/electric engines? Fine. Some electronics to assist driving and engine management? Okay. Safety features? Sure. But everything else is basically the automobile equivalent of a modern web browser.

FunnyBadger• 4 years ago

I'm a serial BMW owner (on my 8th) but this ends my relationship with BMW forever.

BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea

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