Portugal bans bosses texting staff after-hours

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59263300

by buro9 • 5 years ago

387 229 5 years ago

bbc.co.uk

mjamil• 5 years ago

I DM my staff on slack “after hours” [1] all the time, and set the expectation that they should respond when appropriate at their discretion. That could (and often does) mean the next business day or even later. Or it could mean ASAP; they’re adults, and have the judgement to make the correct call.

[1] Obviously, this policy is not targeted at staff in different time zones, which makes their remedy meaningless.

toomuchtodo3• 5 years ago

[Sentence removed due to misinterpreting comment I replied to]. It's important to consider the managers and poor leaders out there who might not be as upstanding as yourself with regards to expectations, necessitating legislation or regulation. Citizens are entitled to their uncompensated time off hours not being interrupted.

It's likely the end result of this is using communications tool features to queue or hold messages until a worker's work day starts. I believe Slack, Teams, and Office 365 already support "quiet hours" at org level.

Tangentially, when thinking about labor regulation, I think it's important to frame the conversations as "what monsters lurk in the private sector? [1] [2]" vs "I am a great boss, why would this be necessary?"

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+type+psychopath

[2] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=leadership+dark+triad

bpodgursky• 5 years ago

I have an 11 month old child. My work hours are all over the place. A law telling me I can't catch up on Slack when I'm up at midnight for unrelated reasons just makes my life worse.

Why not just close slack when you leave for the day? I don't get it.

hxbdidk2• 5 years ago

He says that he expects people to respond to DMs ASAP when he considers it appropriate. That means his staff have to read each message he sends them when he sends them. This is hardly good leadership.

ashtonkem• 5 years ago

I generally shift over to email, because the expectations around email are quite different. In the past I've made it explicit what my expectations are for response time based on communication method, this has worked for cross-cultural work where unspoken assumptions are probably not shared.

black_puppydog2• 5 years ago

It's great that you don't have the expectation of people reading or replying to your messages after hours.

However, please recognize that even with a well-meaning boss like you, there are still mechanisms that incentivize individuals to at least read these messages, and once their free time has been "tainted" with work stuff, much of the damage is already done. Psychological pressures (which may be entirely internal but often are the result of other peers' attitudes as well) will still take a toll.

IMHO, as grown-ups, it is the most reasonable thing to avoid such leakage altogether; when my phone rings after hours I need to be certain that this is not something that can wait.

Luckily, since you're already using slack, you can just use the "send later" feature which is super simple to use and will work around this effectively. :)

belval4• 5 years ago

I disagree with your take and I am mostly on the receiving end of those late Slack messages. If you do not wish to get notified unless it's an emergency there is a nifty feature that allows you to define your working hours, out of which you won't get a notification when getting messages on Slack.

In case of something that is urgent the sender can override the "do not disturb" and send a notification anyway. This in my opinion is the right way to do.

You should own the fact that your free time is yours and that you shouldn't open Slack to read those late messages. People work at different times (especially true for globally distributed team) and expecting people to "know" that they are outside of YOUR business hours simply does not scale to multiple employees.

pandemicsoul• 5 years ago

I agree. Even if I don't receive a notification, if I happen to open the Slack app and see pending messages – particularly if they're from a manager or someone higher in the hierarchy – then I feel obligated to respond to them.

arrrg• 5 years ago

This boss isn’t well meaning at all. They expect people (unlike what you said) to actually read all messages right away, no matter the time.

Because, as they also say, sometimes it might be appropriate to respond right away (“Or it could mean ASAP”).

If that’s the case, then the clear expectation is that people read all messages at all times, they just might not always have to respond right away (but in order to make that judgement call they have to actually read all messages).

This might actually be worse than just sending messages after hours where you actually have to respond right away – because you actually have to do sifting and filtering (after hours!) through messages, the vast majority of which might not require an immediate answer. If you are only contacted at those times where you actually do need to respond right away then at least you know what to expect …

This sounds like a pretty awful boss with awful communication who somehow convinced themself that they are oh so gracious and nice.

McDyver• 5 years ago

As someone mention in another comment, sending an email would be more adequate. The reason being that even if people are "adults, and have the judgement to make the correct call", there is always a looming implied pressure in sending an instant message. Not everyone will have the mental fortitude to just leave things for later, when the boss sends a message.

jimbob45• 5 years ago

This is our policy as well and it works perfectly. In a world where working in different time zones is increasingly becoming the norm, there's really no other workable policy unless you want to hamstring team members outside of your company's "official" time zone.

That said, I'm sure some bosses have abused this policy despite its well-meaning origins.

hxbdidk2• 5 years ago

Or in other words "I expect my staff to always check every DM I send them out of hours and correctly deduce whether I expect them to respond immediately. If they don't I will consider them to have poor judgement."

crossroadsguy4• 5 years ago

Or it could mean ASAP

Why?

This basically means they must “read” the message ASAP to decide whether to reply ASAP or not.

That OUGHT NOT TO BE the expectation ever!

Let alone the expectation of an immediate answer, the root problem is expectation of that message “being read right then” or soon.

ilrwbwrkhv• 5 years ago

Yup slack is async communication. I always reply to my bosses 24 hours after they send me a message. To make sure that there is no expectation that I will be responding immediately.

kayodelycaon• 5 years ago

Or it could mean ASAP

Reading this as written, you're requiring your staff to read every message immediately but they only need to respond if you think they need to.

That's no different than 24/7 on call when it comes to making some people's lives miserable.

monster_group• 5 years ago

I turn off my work computer after work day. I never install company chat apps / email on personal devices. So it really doesn't matter whether my manager messages me after hours or next business day because I'll only see when I login to work computer next morning.

beebeepka• 5 years ago

That's the correct answer

bonestamp22• 5 years ago

We have a team distributed over many time zones so we have to send messages to each other at "off hours". Thankfully we have a good understanding that this is for the convenience of the sender and the receiver can reply the following day.

I have one team member in Quebec and the way they handle this seems to make more sense than Portugal's. Basically, the employees have the right to refuse 'overtime'. So, the boss can message them, but they cannot be penalized for not responding.

confidantlake2• 5 years ago

That sounds terrible. Your staff has to read every message after hours in case they get one where they have to respond ASAP. Now I can see why Portugal deemed the law necessary.

david422• 5 years ago

they’re adults

But adults who's source of income is their job that you hold the power over.

Even if everybody has a great relationship, that power differential is real and present and can't be changed.

maxerickson• 5 years ago

I guess there can be lots of exceptions, but it's probably appropriate for many roles to not read the message until the next business day.

asdfsd234234444• 5 years ago

Yeah, no.

The entire point of this law is that you don't get to message employees who aren't working.

They aren't obligated to read your message and determine whether it is appropriate to reply immediately or tomorrow.

You can message them during work hours.

sethammons• 5 years ago

Slack has the feature to send later. If it is after hours and non-urgent, it is scheduled for tomorrow or sent as an email. Anything else is disrespectful to the recipient's time and attention.

Would you dm your boss's boss after hours? I would only if important.

roeles• 5 years ago

Early 2021, I was overstressed from (among other causes) being micromanaged.

When a project manager asked me on my private WhatsApp if me being at home meant I couldn't attend this very important number, I looked into a separate phone for work.

I got a separate SIM for 2,50 euro per month and put it into my previous smart-phone (I don't need performance for WhatsApp and the like). This was one of the best decisions I have ever made. Being able to physically shut down your work phone gave me heaps of peace.

zz865• 5 years ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29149785

siruncledrew• 5 years ago

It’s nice to set an expectation for work life balance.

How does this situation work for “flexible hours” though?

Or it this kind of expecting something like you only work 9-5pm and can’t be contacted outside those times.

klarstrup2• 5 years ago

it says "out of working hours", even if your hours are flexible they're still working hours I would say

polaris_mars5• 5 years ago

In Portugal is the state that micro manages you and your company.

Normal_gaussian2• 5 years ago

Yes, the pesky state sets minimum breaks, maximum weekly hours, minimum wage, anti-discrimination law, anti-bullying law, minimum age to work, minimum safety requirements.

It would be a much better world if our neighbours 9 year old was sent down to the local pencil factory every night for six hours and ay weekends to pick up the pencils that ocassionally fly out of the machine into those hard to reach areas between the conveyor belts and sharpening machines. He could make a few dollars a day and pay for his own food and clothes!

polaris_mars5• 5 years ago

Yes. Once your country catches with the rest of developed world then yes you can have slack to have nice things such as all those minimum standards you mentioned. But with this Portugal will remain a back water coutry forever. I have friends that were telling me 10 years ago that Portugal will be the California of Europe. Nice weather welcoming culture, education going up. Who would not want to set up office there?? Nop, I told them. Portugal is the Mexico of Europe. You get taxed to death and anyone without connections but with ability just emigrantes.

Why don't you go to Bangladesh and ask them to set minimum wage laws and maximum working hours? It would help Portugal more than this law, but not so sure about Bangladesh...

I'm Portuguese btw and know very well what I'm talking about. Just crossing the border to Spain makes big difference in a young guy's prospects in life.

polaris_mars5• 5 years ago

Search premature imitation.

klarstrup2• 5 years ago

I would've preferred to see this come by way of union power, but government bought is ok

csee3• 5 years ago

It's better done through government, as is minimum wage and other worker protections. Unions have systematic downsides that are avoided if worker protection is achieved via government.

one_off_comment• 5 years ago

Not quite "bans". They could face fines, which means it's legal for a price.

gherkinnn• 5 years ago

What about a team’s WhatsApp group? (every co-located team has one) What does a boss do when asking the rest of team where they went off for drinks?

It isn’t obvious from the linked article.

bonestamp22• 5 years ago

It sounds like they may face fines for this. So, if they're just asking which pub to meet at, I don't think they'd receive a fine for that.

kaycebasques• 5 years ago

Can we open up a broader discussion about Portugal's culture of work? On one hand this sends a message that Portugal cares about work/life balance for everyday citizens. On the other my general impression of Portugal's economy is that it's one of the weaker members of the EU. High debt, not a huge driver of innovation, wealth, etc. These are all just loosely held beliefs kicking around in my head. I'm not attached to any of them or sure that they are even accurate.

pokstad• 5 years ago

I spent years making careful decisions and investments in my career so that I could work a flexible and remote job. I’ve worked in places where most of the workers are incapable of competently working asynchronously and being results driven. Laws like this seem to ridiculous and ignoring the reality of work.

BaRRaKID4• 5 years ago

You're partially right.

Portugal is in the middle of a work culture change. For the last maybe 5 or so years, many tech companies have opened offices here, and with that they brought a better work/life balance, better salaries, better everything, for people working in those companies.

On the other hand a typical "old school" Portuguese boss expects you to work more than the standard 8 hours and not be paid for it. In many many places you're shamed by co-workers if you leave on time (leaving earlier isn't even an option), or if you need to take days off for personal reasons. It's also not unusual to make it hard for people to take vacation days (we have 21 days of vacations per year), and even when you do take vacations you are expected to be available if needed. All this for a minimum wage of 665€.

Regarding the Portuguese economy, we are somewhere in the middle of Europe. We have many industries where we are probably the best in the world, but they are smaller less flashy industries. Namely things like wine, cork, shoes, ceramics (as in toilets), glass, etc. But we have many financial issues, manly due to huge amount of corruption in government and financial institutions. If you're interested in those search for Operation Marquis and Face Oculta scandal.

Regarding this law in particular, it was made so that people that are working from home due to COVID can log off an not have people calling for extra work after hours. It has been a real issue. For me personally I've been working average 10 hours a day the last two years.

jointpdf• 5 years ago

...boss expects you to work more than the standard 8 hours and not be paid for it. In many many places you're shamed by co-workers if you leave on time (leaving earlier isn't even an option), or if you need to take days off for personal reasons. It's also not unusual to make it hard for people to take vacation days (we have 21 days of vacations per year), and even when you do take vacations you are expected to be available if needed.

You were describing US work culture perfectly until the 21 days of vacation part. In the US you are legally entitled to 0 vacation days (also, 0 days for maternity leave), though 10 is more standard. Our minimum wage is about the same ($7.25), and has not changed since 2009 ($7.25 today is equivalent to ~$5.50 in 2009).

vasco• 5 years ago

Minimum wage in Portugal is €775 when dividing the yearly gross salary. The €665 figure is a misrepresentation in an international forum like this because Portugal pays salaries 14x a year instead of 12x.

arijo• 5 years ago

The main reason Portugal does not have a competitive per capita GDP in the euro area is the fact that the older generations have, on average, very low instruction and education levels and thus are not able to be as productive as their northern European same generation citizens.

There has been a big change in the last 20 years because of a big bet on higher education, science and technology. The new generations can compete with and match the productivity levels of any European citizen of the same age cohort.

I hope this helps you better understand Portuguese economics because its impact on Portugal’s general wealth will become evident to anyone in the following decades.

adventured• 5 years ago

Wouldn't Portugal's GDP per capita have been increasing noticeably over the last few decades if for 20 years an influx of improvement had been occurring with new entrants to the labor force?

Inflation adjusted Portugal's GDP per capita has hardly moved in three decades.

In nominal terms it hasn't increased in 13 years, since the peak before the great recession (23% inflation adjusted decline over that time).

By comparison Czechia was far worse off than Portugal 30 years ago and now has a higher per capita figure. Slovakia is likely to similarly overtake Portugal soon as well. The same is true of the Baltic states, all of which will overtake Portugal (Estonia already has). That doesn't seem like something that should be happening if Portugal were seeing a big positive change for decades.

134152• 5 years ago

As a foreigner living and working as a long-term resident in Portugal (with a Portuguese salary and paying Portuguese taxes, of course), my impression is that the problems are systemic and long-term. There is no overnight solution but things are slowly improving. Salaries are still abysmal so many highly skilled workers migrate outside of Portugal. At the same time there is a ton of favoritism which leads to an abundant amount of incompetence in leadership positions, resulting in low motivation. People tend to work a lot, often they are forced to work longer than official work hours and there are long lunch breaks, but they do not always work very efficiently. My impression is that client-related businesses and the public sector (funcionários) are overstaffed. This is especially noticeable in shops, where there are often 3 or 4 people standing around with nothing to do until one of them draws some invisible short straw and takes care of you.

I don't think there is an easy recipe to change systemic problems and I don't have any quirks with the current government. They're doing a fine job. Portugal used to be a rural society and have textile industry. I doubt it's going to turn into a high tech innovation hub anytime soon, but everyone is trying. The currently biggest problem are the increasing rents and stagnating salaries, as well as the brain drain mentioned above. But perhaps the biggest problem is favoritism and very pronounced social hierarchies, I've heard horror stories about psychopathic bosses. I've even met such people at university so I believe they have a grain of truth in them.

jrib• 5 years ago

I'm curious: if your don't mind sharing, what attracted you to living in Portugal as a foreigner?

EL_Loco4• 5 years ago

Sorry to ask, and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, but do you live there by yourself or do you have a family? I have a wife and two kids, and I'm trying to figure out how much does it cost to live in Portugal, per month. I'm planning to move there, not now but in the short future. Could you give me an idea of the cost, if you're familiar with this situation (family of four). Thanks in advance.

arijo2• 5 years ago

"I doubt it's going to turn into a high tech innovation hub anytime soon .."

I wouldn't be so sure:

Remote raises $150m and becomes Portugal’s fifth unicorn - https://sifted.eu/articles/remote-unicorn/

andrepd9• 5 years ago

There is not problem with the "culture of work" if by that you're implying people there are lazy and don't work as hard as in richer countries. The fact is that "hard work" or productivity is entirely uncorrelated with compensation. Simply the compensation of labour in a market is the equilibrium value, which because of the power imbalance between worker and owner means the least value the owner can get away with paying (or minimum wage), and in Portugal owners can get away with paying less than in Germany, and in Serbia less than Portugal, and in Bangladesh less than Serbia. Nothing to do with intrinsic work culture.

EDIT: Also the Euro is a disaster for countries like Portugal. To be clear: joining the EU was excellent (Portugal is a totally different country now than it was before we joined), but joining the Euro was disastrous. It bound together countries like Portugal and Germany to the same monetary policy, even though they had/have completely opposite interests. Well guess who had it their way x) Despite this massive crippling of sovereignty, which reared its ugly head when the time came to handle the European crisis in 2011, Portugal reaped no benefit from the monetary union. Closer integration or common fiscal policy never happened, and Portugal was stuck in a monetary union without a political union (the EU is barely a democracy, but that's a whole nother can of worms). Germany meanwhile benefits fabulously from its position as the foremost surplus country in Europe, in monetary union with comparatively weak economies.

jp57• 5 years ago

but joining the Euro was disastrous. It bound together countries like Portugal and Germany to the same monetary policy, even though they had/have completely opposite interests.

I've often wondered about this. The US Dollar binds together poor states Alabama and rich states like California, but I don't think I've heard people arguing that two states being on a common currency contributes to the impoverishment of Alabama.

I'm sure there are important differences between the Euro and the Dollar that account for this difference in perspective, but I don't know what they are.

jollybean4• 5 years ago

"The fact is that "hard work" or productivity is entirely uncorrelated with compensation."

They are just not strongly.

All you have to do is send your higher earning potential workers to Germany - which as you hint at, kind of the way the EU was designed, and which is happening to a great degree.

'Joining the EU' was never a benefit for Portugual - really just the free money or subsidized/reasonably structured loans and investment were. But as you indicate, the price is a lot more.

Germany is where people work, Spain/Portugual is where they retire, like the Florida of Europe.

Sadly, I don't see an end as there will never be enough momentum to disrupt things, given that young people think that 'travelling without a passport' is somehow a giant strategic benefit, and they've been told how to think about the EU.

You could have a referendum and leaders could ignore it, as they have in France, Netherlands, Ireland etc..

There's no change possible on the Horizon, but if there were serious economic upheaval in major states like Italy/Spain, integration problems wit E. Europe in a major way, it might be possible to cut a new deal which would include terms that limit ECJ Supremacy and affirmed local constitutions, and gave local nations control over settlement, and hopefully 'more democracy' at the Legislative and Executive (this will never happen though) ... and you have a situation where UK, Norway and Switzerland could feasibly join.

baby• 5 years ago

One question is: can your people be happy if you don’t have the best economy? Do you need to constantly grow and produce more value to be sustainable?

belter• 5 years ago

For an even better example look at the different German states. Bavaria with its rich BMW factories versus Saarland where anybody who does not work in Luxembourg is poor as a mouse. Same German population, same working culture and methods, but completely different outcomes.

One state is rich another one shows a deficit and there has been no job creation. If the German model is so good why cant Germany reproduce it in every part of the country?

At the same time Volkswagen Autoeuropa an automotive assembly plant, located in the city of Palmela, near Lisbon, showed higher productivity than some sites in Germany.

The problem with "working culture" analysis is that they miss the underlying processes, patterns and local constrains most teams are forced to work it.

emodendroket• 5 years ago

Well, that's one problem... another is that people often use it as an excuse for thinly veiled prejudice.

ekianjo4• 5 years ago

If the German model is so good why cant Germany reproduce it in every part of the country?

Capital and supply chains are not spread evenly across the country... and that's a major factor.

If culture was the only thing then you'd expect people at the top of a mountain to have the same level of life as someone living in a city. That's obviously not going to happen in any case.

rhizome• 5 years ago

Lotta weasel words in there, maybe describe how you acquired these loosely held "beliefs?" Someone's gotta be last, but is it actually bad there, or is the problem academic and significant only because someone (you, in this case) describes it as such? I'm getting a distinct "yo dawg, I herd..." vibe.

blitzar• 5 years ago

On one hand they care about work/life balance for everyday citizens.

On the other hand they have a lazy and unproductive workforce.

ptmvp• 5 years ago

Unproductive bit is true mostly due to the low value added nature of most jobs.

The lazy thing is a tired, prejudiced, stereotype. Unless you also consider countries like Japan who work similar (but less) annual hours to be 'lazy'.[0]

[0]https://data.oecd.org/chart/6wmc

rbobby• 5 years ago

There should be an SMS option on phones that does an automatic reply "Your message to rbobby could not be delivered because rbobby is not working right now. If you'd like your message delivered anyway a charge of $9.95 will apply. Reply to send your message and be charged $9.95"

ivanmontillam2• 5 years ago

It doesn't need to be an option. You could make an application that replaces your native SMS app, and build such a "gateway".

The only problem I see, is that your boss is likely to use WhatsApp or else to find you, where such rules can't be enforced.

I could make an specific app go offline thanks to the NetGuard app (I'm not affiliated with it), it partially solves that problem. It must be manually turned on or off.

belval4• 5 years ago

Reading comment like yours always put into perspective how lucky I've been in my career so far to never get a manager who would try to find me on WhatsApp to ask work questions. It seems like such an overreach and might explain why such a law was needed in the first place.

cactus2093• 5 years ago

This sounds like a really wild solution without a problem.

The employee can just turn off their phone today, or put it on do not disturb, or simply ignore the texts when not working. The boss could say "you need to reply to these texts or you will be fired", just like they could say "You need to take me off your $9.95 delivery list or you will be fired".

Also, is the point here that the employee will be happy to work outside of working hours if they are paid $9.95? If they get overtime they should be paid it based on the hourly overtime rate & policies for their role, not some strange one-time fee that their cellular provider collects for them.

hasmolo• 5 years ago

there are people who aren't capable of this due to neuro-divergence. folks with ADD and ADHD affected by RSD wouldn't be able to do what you're asking, and thus these laws are intended to help those who cannot help themselves, not the people not currently being affected.

mlboss• 5 years ago

Does it involves pages also ? What about pages for docters/emergency workers ?

crossroadsguy4• 5 years ago

And I live in a country where government recently legalised 12 hour shifts.

And EU and American companies open their offices here expecting “full cooperation” from these offshore employees while not at all from their local employees.

secondaryacct• 5 years ago

How do you have time talking here ? Obviously we haven't made it clear enough that when you re on your shift you should focus on work, and when not, sleep.

caymanjim• 5 years ago

It's not at all unusual to work 12-hour shifts at a US company. It's less common among white-collar professionals, although many in finance, law, and medicine regularly work those kinds of hours. It's far more common in blue-collar work--anything from retail to trucking to food service to agriculture.

I'm not saying working 12 hour shifts is good or healthy (although in some cases it's also not too bad, especially if it means more flexibility for the employee, or if they want the extra pay). Just pointing out that plenty of US companies do in fact expect 12 hour shifts from their local employees.

anm893• 5 years ago

I still don't understand how you guarantee people the right to work remotely for

-doctors

-nurses

-trades

-technicians

-factory

-warehouse

-restaurant

-retail

-Hospitality

-janitorial

It seems that more than half of all jobs cannot be done remote under any circumstance so how are you going to make that a government guaranteed right?

AussieWog933• 5 years ago

You're getting downvoted because you're being deliberately obtuse.

No government is trying to guarantee the right for janitors or nurses to work remotely - only those jobs for which it's feasible.

anm893• 5 years ago

I'm not being obtuse. What is the point of a right that applies to 1/3 of the population. That is by definition not a right. It's a privilege for a class of people, in this case the people who are already the most privileged people in society.

And a big proportion of those people are already going to have that ability forever at this point.

So this is a legal guarantee of a privilege for some people but mostly just those who don't need it.

The people being obtuse are the people arguing for this like it's some kind of grass roots labor issue and they are freedom fighters.

ineptech5• 5 years ago

The article uses "text" and "call" and "contact" as if they're indistinguishable - what actually got banned here? There's a huge difference between discussing a task for someone in a team channel and @-ing them and emailing them and SMSing them.

ineptech5• 5 years ago

I tried to answer my own question, but can't find any specifics. CNN says "phone, message or email", AP says "contact", thehill says "email". None of them have a link to more details or the text of the law (which ought to be the bare fucking minimum in a news article about a law, but this is the internet now I guess).

BaRRaKID4• 5 years ago

It's probably just an issue with trying to translate the original source. But the law uses the term "contact", so AP is correct.

BaRRaKID4• 5 years ago

Mandatory "Portuguese here". All forms of communication are banned. Unless it's an emergency, and this is where it gets a bit grey because they haven't defined what exactly is an emergency, so things will probably stay the same in most cases.

ineptech5• 5 years ago

Thanks! That sure sounds overbroad - would it include, say, "Can y'all take a look at the XYZ server tomorrow" being posted in a team's slack channel? Also, is it just limited to the supervisor, or is it any work-related messages?

mysterydip• 5 years ago

"This is an emegency. I can't print."

hugoromano• 5 years ago

(Portuguese here) Portuguese Parliament and Government publish law every day and afterhours[1], as a citizen I have to keep up with this. MPs believe they are doing a great job by producing more Law, instead of checking if what is in place is accountable. A common behaviour is when a "crime" case is well covered by the media, the first thing is said "we need to change the Law", trying to dodge blame.

I have been working remote for 17 years, and the teams I worked in, work asynchronously. It is fine to text, slack, discord and email after hours, people don't expect to get answers immediately, they will reply according to their schedule or contract.

One case is that employers have to compensate employees for electricity and utilities for working remote, in my case that is a cost of €10.58, I save much more for not commuting, financially and psychologically.

[1] https://dre.pt/dre/home

CoffeeOnWrite• 5 years ago

I have been working remote for 17 years

This suggests you are likely a member of the professional class. A lot of labor regulation in the US (my country) is intended to protect the working class, not the professional class. Perhaps that was the intention of your politicians?

(This legislation does sound like treating a symptom, and not unlikely to have unintended detrimental consequences. But we should still empathize with and consider the needs of those workers less privileged than ourselves)

dymk• 5 years ago

That the law might work in one case doesn't justify it as a good law - the law should consider at least some of the edge cases, especially if it's going to negatively impact such a large class of workers as the "professional class".

It's also unclear that there's no scenario in which the non "professional class" would benefit from being able to be texted by their boss.

noduerme14• 5 years ago

> But we should still empathize with and consider the needs of those workers less privileged than ourselves

Why? Or else what? They might look for better jobs?

andrepd9• 5 years ago

In tech jobs, you probably are in a bubble. Most jobs won't have such respecting bosses, it's pretty much the norm in many places to demand unpaid work after-hours. The move to remote work has worsened this problem because the line between work hours and off-work hours is even more blurred.

aksss• 5 years ago

It's doubly hard to maintain boundaries if you actually enjoy the work you do. Too easy to come home and just keep doing it. Not the healthiest though. I think the blurring of work/personal time is a mixed bag. Sure my personal life gets interrupted occasionally, but there's also an expectation from many employers that you're going to be conducting more personal business during business hours too. In my jobs, I've typically been able to manage the work invading personal time downwards towards zero reasonably well while taking more advantage of (and appreciating) a more flexible business environment.

noduerme14• 5 years ago

I haven't had a day without a work phone call since 2004. Even when I was living off the grid in the Australian outback for a year, I had to find places to check messages, and dialup modems to commit code changes. I'd never hire someone I couldn't call when I needed them, just like my employers would never hire me if I couldn't be called. Just the way it is. I like my freedom more than most people, so I find ways to balance their [my clients'] needs against my autonomy.

eyelidlessness3• 5 years ago

If you work asynchronously, it should be no problem to schedule your messages within the working hours of the recipient.

sokoloff3• 5 years ago

I have many group slack, group text, and WhatsApp channels where I don’t even know the working hours of all the people in them.

I have other channels where I do know everyone and also know there is literally no overlap in natural working hours of all the recipients. My leadership team channel (as an example) has members in India, Switzerland, and both coasts of the US.

PicassoCTs• 5 years ago

This seems, pretty easy to fullfill technical wise.. just store the work-messages in dbs and trigger the send, when the person switches the app into work-mode.

santiagobasulto• 5 years ago

Unrelated question. How is Portugal in terms of taxes for people working remotely as contractors (for the US in my case)? I'm an Italian citizenship and I was considering Portugal as my next stop.

ryanlol• 5 years ago

Look up the NHR program, you can probably structure this in an extremely tax efficient manner. 0% tax for the first 10 years.

evancoop• 5 years ago

The best counterargument here is that currently, the market adjudicates this already. Roles demanding after-hours access typically yield higher compensation than similar roles that do not. The market essentially offers an employee the opportunity to offer an employer greater availability in exchange for pay. If the employer demands that access without the corresponding compensation, the employee is likely to depart. This law posits a market failure. Does one exist?

pc86• 5 years ago

I agree with you 90% of the way, and it would be 100% if not for the fact that there are plenty of jobs which only exist with constant contact from your boss. There may be folks willing to do those jobs for lower compensation, but they don't have the opportunity.

Also, I take issue generally with the idea that in order to only work reasonable hours without being bothered by your boss you need to get paid less for the work you already do.

confidantlake2• 5 years ago

You could make that same argument for health and safety regulations. Why have them? The market will compensate the least safe places higher. But still I would rather know my workplace has some sort of minimum safety standard rather than try to guess and find the one least likely to get me injured/killed.

There are at least 2 market failures I see. One is perfect information. The average worker will not know enough about how after hours access request system is implemented before starting. The other is perfect competition. In an ideal market there would be more competition that would give the worker enough choice to work without this after hours request demand. But in the real world the employee often does not have this choice.

syntaxstic• 5 years ago

This didn't get passed into legislation.

wonderwonder• 5 years ago

"Parents will be allowed to work at home indefinitely without seeking prior approval from their employers until their child turns eight." There have to be some sort of limits on this left out of the article. I cant think a cashier can elect to work from home if they have a 4 year old.

ClumsyPilot3• 5 years ago

Reasobaly assume that this applies to jobs that can be done remotely, you cant have a remote working plumber

silexia• 5 years ago

What happens if there is a true emergency at work? Do employers just have to pay a bunch of fines every time this happens?

What will the politicians do when lots of businesses that could have done business in Portugal instead go to another country that is more reasonable in their laws?

If the politicians removed regulations and made Portugal much more attractive place for business, I think that would better accomplish their goal of improving workers lives. Businesses would be competing aggressively for Portuguese employees.

kelseyfrog• 5 years ago

I banned my boss from texting after hours. He texted me during hours for a legitimate reason. Moments after the issue was taken care of, I blocked his number. If it ever becomes an issue, it's easy to frame as a healthy way of enforcing boundaries. Everyone should block their boss by default.

ayush--s• 5 years ago

is this sarcasm?

noduerme14• 5 years ago

Sounds like you established a good, respectful relationship with boundaries with your boss. Everyone should do this (without passing a law, obviously).

pugets• 5 years ago

And companies may also have to contribute to higher household bills from being home-based, such as energy and internet costs.

Isn't this what we should not be doing? If government wants people to start working from home, then don't create disincentives for companies to make the switch. Temporarily, at least, absorb the cost.

ekianjo4• 5 years ago

Erm... Why do you need a law when you simply have to say no to your boss as an employee? "Sorry, I am following my contract, I'm not supposed to work after hours". If you can't even have this kind of discussion with your boss, grow some balls or change companies.

slater• 5 years ago

Erm... Because bosses might use that as leverage/reasoning and instead hire people who WILL answer after hours?

nlitened• 5 years ago

What stops them from doing the same without stating the reasoning?

ekianjo4• 5 years ago

If your only advantage is that you will work after hours, then you might have a skills problem on the job market.

foepys• 5 years ago

When one is over 50 and has a family to support, growing some balls and quitting jobs could end up with one defaulting on the mortgage.

It's easy to say this when you don't have any obligations and are young. But later in life this gets much, much harder.

noduerme14• 5 years ago

When one is over 50, one should have grown some balls awhile back, no? In any event, it's never too late. If you're still employed, that implies they need you.

ClumsyPilot3• 5 years ago

"Erm... Why do you need a law when you simply have to say no to your boss as an employee?"

Why do we need a law against bosses demanding sex and blowjobs when you can simply say no?

ekianjo4• 5 years ago

Why do we need a law against bosses demanding sex and blowjobs when you can simply say no?

So working after hours is similar to sexual harassment. What a shortcut your did there. Next time try a better analogy.

andresp• 5 years ago

They should have have started by reducing taxes. Portugal has some of the highest tax rates. One of the main reasons why people (especially in highly valued sectors) continue to leave the country.

LatteLazy• 5 years ago

I don't object to texts or email out of hours. I can pick them up or not as suits me. And I'd rather know what I'm headed into than get in and find chaos.

Portugal bans bosses texting staff after-hours

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