The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

http://rigsomelight.com/2013/09/09/frameless-geodesic-dome.html

by brucehauman • 13 years ago

747 310 13 years ago

rigsomelight.com

osivertsson• 13 years ago

Beautiful and inspiring. Posts like this is what makes HN great.

brucehauman10• 13 years ago

Thanks man, I really appreciate that.

nathanbatson• 13 years ago

What kind of rvalue are you able to get from the structure? I'm wondering if this would be viable for colder climates.

brucehauman10• 13 years ago

The R value for two layers of blueboard foam is 7.5 plus the r value of the corrugated plastic. But the structure is pretty darn tight and the shape tends hold heat much better than I expected.

You can always add more insulation layers and get more R value.

leokun• 13 years ago

Does it have plumbing?

brucehauman10• 13 years ago

No plumbing but it's certainly possible.

mrgoldenbrown• 13 years ago

So do you live in this or is it just a workspace? EDIT: Duh, the title says "live in", so I guess you do :) Maybe I read too fast but I didn't see anything about cooking, bathroom needs, and showering, so I got confused.

deletes• 13 years ago

How does it fair again strong winds in a storm and occasional hail? Is the isolation good enough to provide comfort in environment ranging from 35°C to -15°C ?

What is your solution for a bathroom? Where do you shower?

aclevername• 13 years ago

This. I'm curious as to how the bathroom is laid out, where you go for any and all of those purposes.

This "house" is missing a lot of viable (standard) infrastructure to be considered what we usually call a house in North America. It's closer to that of a very small travel trailer, or a tent. All in all I still love the idea.

grannyg00se6• 13 years ago

I suppose standard infrastructure is out of scope.

"If you are considering a canvas dome, teepee, or yurt you should consider building a frameless dome"

For bathroom activities, I would suggest some kind of humanure solution.

onehp• 13 years ago

At the low cost for that dome I'd be pretty tempted to stick another one on and divide it in two for kitchen and bathroom.

nobodysfool• 13 years ago

This doesn't have a bathroom, it's just a place to sleep and work. Think of it like a workroom, or greenhouse. It was built on a foundation of masonry blocks and 2x4s If you wanted plumbing, you could certainly add it. That's the idea, you build it yourself.

tonyarkles• 13 years ago

This is super fascinating! You mention snow, but I didn't notice what part of the world you're living in. I'd be curious about building something like this, but I'm in a part of Canada where -40 and LOTS of snow is a real possibility.

brucehauman10• 13 years ago

If you have lots of snow, then I would advise a sparse frame , imagine an outline of octagons and pentagons but not the internal triangles, more insulation would also be required.

brucehauman10• 13 years ago

I live in the mountains of North Carolina: A temperate but very wet area.

michaelt• 13 years ago

In my country I'm not sure what the legal situation would be - as I understand it you can't just throw up a trailer park where you want. And a plot of land with permission for a permanent residence is worth about half the cost of a house. What's the legal situation in your country?

Have you ever invited girls home, and if so how did they react? I think your dome looks awesome and fascinating, but I don't know if everyone would be so enthusiastic?

scotty79• 13 years ago

Have you ever invited girls home, and if so how did they react?

Some standup comediant joked that if women agreed to have sex in cardboard boxes, men wouldn't buy houses.

cgag• 13 years ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZRflz-93JA#t=0m35s

makmanalp• 13 years ago

Actually what I'm wondering is how you conform to building and fire codes, etc.

ams61102• 13 years ago

Those things are largely ignored in rural areas, unless there is a complaint. Believe me I've seen people living in structures that violate every building, electrical, and plumbing code in the book, but out in the backwoods nobody cares.

baddox• 13 years ago

Just yesterday I found this fellow Paul Elkins via YouTube. He makes some cool (smaller) shelters as well. Like this:

http://www.elkinsdiy.com/survival/rapid-coroshelter/

eksith• 13 years ago

I love it! I especially like that it is in fact a closer to a proper dome rather than a flat faceted solid since the panels are flexible. It reminds me of an igloo.

We get a fair amount of snow, so if I went about this, there would probably be a frame underneath. There are plenty of tutorials on the web for the assembly of geodesic structures.

This touches on another project that didn't quite take off called the "Icopod" http://eksith.wordpress.com/2010/01/06/icopod

The idea was very similar, but I think the original designer became disinterested and moved onto other things. The fact that you provided exact shapes and sizes makes me more hopeful.

ctdonath2• 13 years ago

Bravo! Fantastic attempt (thinking way outside the box), with interesting results (low cost, rapid construction). Great step in the tiny house concept.

Not sure how to reconcile the shape with societal expectations, as we're trained to expect 3+ rooms with rectangular layout (even "tiny homes" adhere). Does look a bit tight inside, at least for usable floorspace juxtaposed with headroom. Cost is impressive (low), but might need something of a sales pitch to motivate living in the 4-digit expense.

I'm most impressed that you did it. Would love the opportunity to try it myself (alas, priorities).

umsm2• 13 years ago

One issue with deviating from the standard rectangular construction is that furniture is designed to fit in square spaces.

Beds, tables, chairs, etc. are mostly rectangular.

jdnier• 13 years ago

Any concerns about living surrounded by all that polystyrene blueboard? Either indoor air quality or flammability? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystyrene#Fire_hazards

brucehauman10• 13 years ago

This is definitely a consideration and a trade off. I don't advocate having a wood stove in this structure. I haven't done any tests for air quality. The polystrene isn't exposed that much on the interior.

But this is a really good question which applys to all structures that use this material.

johnnyg• 13 years ago

Loved this post.

I think my favorite part was "I have iterated on this idea a bit." where you post the fails.

It can get discouraging looking at all the beautiful stuff posted and thinking it just sprang out of nothing. Clearly this is neat because you put a lot of work into making it so.

Thanks for taking the time to write it up and share it.

wehadfun• 13 years ago

My favorite line was "Housing is a major expense that is ripe for pruning."

jwallaceparker• 13 years ago

Looks great!

Key question: do the ladies like it?

quadlock• 13 years ago

I like how the plastic panels overlap to prevent leaking as framed geodesic domes often have leaking problems.

adaml_623• 13 years ago

I like geodesics but I don't think they are any more practical than a Yurt.

This link is written by somebody with quite a lot of experience with domes. http://www.shelterpub.com/_shelter/domebuilders_blues.html

brucehauman10• 13 years ago

Please read the post. My post is essentially a response to the many problems of building domes.

wffurr• 13 years ago

You ignored the vast majority of the practical problems pointed out in the parent link. Plumbing, roof pitch, acoustics, privacy, ventilation, insulation, etc.

bradleysmith2• 13 years ago

This is a great post! it seems a lot of the shortcomings he points out stem from ALL goods and services available to home-owners being planned around square housing of standardized measurements. Besides that, there are some inherently 'different' aspects of a dome (acoustics, floor arrangement, extra length requirements in wiring & wall surface jointing, unusual structural stresses) that are both interesting, and probably hard to realize without having lived in and worked on one of these things.

Thanks for sharing this.

num3ric• 13 years ago

This homebuilt dome might interest you: http://youtu.be/OQu_FaTKkiE?t=4m46s

This guy's a classic: "My name is Jamie, and I have decided to build a giant robot damnit!"

staunch• 13 years ago

I wonder how many people could make money putting a couple of these in their backyards and renting them out on Airbnb.

fusiongyro3• 13 years ago

I say try it. The televised court proceedings will make excellent low-cost entertainment for me.

ajmurmann• 13 years ago

It would be very interesting to see the door. Anything I can think off would easier break the structure of the dome or be awkward.

brucehauman10• 13 years ago

The door is in the last photo at the top of the post. It is essentially a round door that functions much the way cooler lid functions. There is a wood frame to support the opening in the structure.

zzzeek• 13 years ago

what's the story on kitchen / food ? (oh right and plumbing, bathrooms, etc).

for this to scale up, we are looking to replace having a traditional house right nearby, right?

are you doing all takeout or something like a camping stove outdoors ?

state• 13 years ago

What's really refreshing about this is that it opens up something we think of as completely static (housing) to the possibility of continuous improvement. I really appreciate the effort to refine the structure. Our concept of improving our immediate environment almost never extends to the walls themselves.

Clearly your approach is not for everyone, but it's great that you have taken the time to share your experience since it will likely push likeminded others towards experimenting as well.

As an aside, I have some limited experience with these: http://shelter-systems.com/ and it has been a fun and simple place to start. Since they're without a foundation I think they're considered 'temporary structures' in California so they don't require any permits.

Great work!

umsm2• 13 years ago

This particular post presents a very interesting structure / design. But I don't see this solving any major issue. There seem to be better alternatives to this that solve "housing issues".

Why wouldn't you build a log cabin instead of something like this?

ebbv2• 13 years ago

While neat this seems to offer zero advantages in reality vs. traditional housing, unless you're a lone hermit living away from everyone else.

Assuming you have 10-20 people to house, each person having their own dome seems less efficient than building a more traditional house with shared kitchen, bathroom, etc. facilities, since the dome cannot contain those, at least without scaling up significantly at which point its utilization of space becomes really inefficient.

EDIT:

To clarify I'm assuming that:

A) He's living a commune with this, and sharing cooking/bathroom facilities with others. Thus my comment abotu 10-20 people to house.

B) The point is efficiency/ease of housing people. I don't think a bunch of individual (or 2-3 person domes) is any more efficient than one or two traditional houses to hold everyone and all the facilities needed.

grannyg00se6• 13 years ago

How are two traditional houses going to house 20 people?

ebbv2• 13 years ago

I dunno if you know this but you can build them pretty big pretty easily. And you can easily fit 2-4 people per bedroom if you build them spaciously and people are willing to sleep in the size of beds featured in the dome.

sp3325• 13 years ago

I've stayed in this house http://i.imgur.com/EgZRY9g.jpg It easily held 30 people. There was a large upstairs room with many beds side-by-side, and 5 other small rooms with one or two bunk beds each. This left the downstairs mostly open with a big kitchen, two medium-sized meeting/dining rooms, and a big classroom.

mmagin• 13 years ago

There are many people who would rather live in a tiny little shack than in a larger house with 10-20 other people.

codezero• 13 years ago

Cheap housing is good, but isn't a bigger problem the lack of property? OK, I can afford to build one of these, but where do I put it?

ctdonath2• 13 years ago

Seems we need a study considering the juxtaposition of property costs, property size, housing cost, housing size, and (oh, how to say this tactfully) social strata.

krmmalik4• 13 years ago

I'm really interested in ideas like this.

There isn't enough innovation in alternative housing. The cost of buying a house in the UK is astronomical. Even a flat-pack build is still very expensive although a fair bit cheaper than brick and mortar, but you still have to buy land and deal with regulatory policies with regards to construction.

contingencies8• 13 years ago

There's loads of info out there on websites and torrents, which I've spent the last year or two devouring. The main thing is to understand where you might like to live and find a technique that's suitable. If you're happy to move somewhat outside of a city, I'd recommend checking out information around straw building in particular... it's pretty impressive in terms of cost, longevity, seismic, audio and thermal insulation properties and is well proven, and suits a surprising range of climates.

krmmalik4• 13 years ago

Thanks!

I may come back to you personally for some more information at some point .

The biggest challenge in the UK for any kind of alternative construction is still the price of the land. Have you discovered any ways to overcome this challenge?

jostmey• 13 years ago

Where's the bathroom?

alex_doom• 13 years ago

I wonder how long it takes to assemble/disassemble. Might be a interesting structure at Burning Man.

S4M• 13 years ago

It's really cool, but how do you deal with the problem of burglary?

mattjaynes2• 13 years ago

This is awesome. I especially love his focus on reducing the complex down to the very simple. He put a lot of work into simplifying the design and the payoff was huge - only 3 shapes make up the whole thing!

From the article: "The three shapes we derived above amount to a remarkable simplification in fabrication and construction. We have decimated the complexity of the dome."

"Decimated" is the perfect word for it.

Here's a related gratuitous simplicity quote from Rich Hickey (of Clojure fame):

"Simplicity is hard work. But, there's a huge payoff. The person who has a genuinely simpler system - a system made out of genuinely simple parts, is going to be able to affect the greatest change with the least work. He's going to kick your ass. He's gonna spend more time simplifying things up front and in the long haul he's gonna wipe the plate with you because he'll have that ability to change things when you're struggling to push elephants around."

http://devopsu.com/blog/simplicity-is-key/

finnh4• 13 years ago

Actually, "decimated" is not the perfect word for it. He's done much better than mere decimation!

(Decimated means "reduced by 1/10th" ... not, as is popularly believed, "reduced to 1/10th")

gamegoblin• 13 years ago

While that is the origin of the word, to pretend it still only means that is pretty delusional.

Words change meaning based on usage.

atsaloli• 13 years ago

To decimate: to spoil or destroy something

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/decim...

p.s. I want to put in a plug for Bob Ware's dictionary gateway site www.onelook.com -- a front end to multiple general and specialized dictionaries, and a great time saver.

mattjaynes2• 13 years ago

Thanks for letting me know! I had no idea, though I probably should have guessed given the word root. Very interesting, that gives me a new perspective on the word :)

jjoe• 13 years ago

It comes from latin or the french verb decimer. If you break it further it becomes cime, which means top (ex: as in top of a mountain). So you're essentially destroying that which is as high as a mountain top - not easily attainable.

yk• 13 years ago

While we are splitting hairs, it means execute one in ten (determined by fair dice roll).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_%28Roman_army%29

indrax• 13 years ago

Either meaning is within an order of magnitude, so if we assume a spherical house...

VikingCoder• 13 years ago

Can we get a PDF that's 164 pages long, that has each part on its own page that we could print on 8.5x11 paper (centering it, since you used 4x8 sheets)?

Then we could print out own version of what you created, and use some kind of fastener (tape? glue?) to put it together...

brucehauman10• 13 years ago

Actually I think this is a wonderful idea.

volokoumphetico2• 13 years ago

it would be nice if you could carry this in your pocket and you add water to the tiny pocket sized cylinder labelled "Capsule Corp." and yell "HOY POY" and it will spring to life, complete with furnitures, your computer and everything.

BrandonMarc2• 13 years ago

Arthur Weasley had something a lot like that ...

volokoumphetico2• 13 years ago

guess nobody got the Dragonball reference. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

zwieback• 13 years ago

I like it for what it is and enoyed reading the post a lot but it's really not a housing alternative.

Zarathust• 13 years ago

I really like having hot running water and a shower in my home. Lets say that I'm willing to pay extra for this.

kpennell2• 13 years ago

For those who want to work on their projects and live cheap, I've seen:

Live in your car and have a hackerspace and gym membership: http://www.quora.com/Would-becoming-homeless-be-a-good-strat...

Hide out at AOL office

Be homeless in Swedish forest

Move to foreign country where it's cheaper to live

Move to a dome

Added it to the list!

jquery3• 13 years ago

I love how manufactured homes aren't on this list.

Oh wait, I forgot this whole thing was about status and "conspicuous authenticity", not about actually living cheaply.

yetanotherphd• 13 years ago

"conspicuous authenticity" I like that.

dalke4• 13 years ago

I noticed that "get roommates" also wasn't on the list.

a8da6b0c91d• 13 years ago

There's still a lot of bubble era housing available very cheap out in the western desert or in the swamps of Florida.

flovec17• 13 years ago

I once rented out a garage space, pitched a tent inside, and parked my Jeep in there. Ah, the early days of a programming career in a new city :)

finnh4• 13 years ago

If you want to live in a city, it's not the cost of the house that kills you: it's the dirt.

In Seattle, where I live, my property tax statement tells me that my (large, nice) house is worth roughly half as much as the land it sits on.

Given that these domes don't float, you still need a place to put 'em. If your goal is to opt out of the cost of housing - an evil which this blog post expounds upon at length - your first order of business isn't so much "what to live in" but "where is it going to be".

brucehauman10• 13 years ago

I agree with your statement whole heartedly. There are trade-offs to everything. I hope that you don't think I am claiming to have solved the housing issue. I am simply offering an "alternative" alternative structure. But there is a place for them and it works for me.

Please see the tiny housing / simplification movement for discussion about the trade offs of relocating and living simply. It's not for everyone.

finnh4• 13 years ago

I used to live in a pretty small house. I loved it.

Then I had two kids =)

EDIT: added smileyface.

dsizzle• 13 years ago

So can you tell us what you did for the land/property part? Your Twitter profile says Asheville. How far is this from the city? Were there zoning issues?

outworlder• 13 years ago

True, to an extent. But considering that some people still live in unkempt shacks, there is some room for improvement.

Mass producing the dome parts seem like a nice proposition. Might not even be for housing at first but as an addon for a existing house. Say you wanted to clear your garage and store your stuff somewhere else in the property. Maybe for government-sponsored housing programs.

Or, I don't know, Africa? There are places where shelter is more important than the land.

bargl• 13 years ago

Africa would be an awesome idea, but you'd have to do a lot of work with the locals to get them to see this as a viable shelter.

I worked on a project that tried to bring new types of homes to Haiti. This was a HUGE problem because if the locals don't like it (no matter how cool) your idea won't take off.

The fact is that most Haitians thought that wood and corrugated metal were what a "house" was (assuming you couldn't afford a concrete home).

This isn't only African's. You could look at forward swept wings in a similar manner (I'm oversimplifying some of the technical difficulties there though).

qq662• 13 years ago

I know that a lot of the "unkempt shacks" you see in India are like that because they are on illegally squatted land, and if they build a more permanent-looking structure they will be forcibly removed. If you look from above you can see many with TV satellite dishes.

sp3325• 13 years ago

Knowing that you don't need a big house gives you a lot more flexibility in choosing where to put it.

icambron2• 13 years ago

In some ways. The dome is great, but one thing it isn't is stackable.

SomeCallMeTim5• 13 years ago

Actually, not necessarily. A lot of zoning regulations in cities require a minimum square footage of a house.

And a lot of zoning rules also prohibit nonstandard construction. It's terribly frustrating when you're looking at alternative building methods.

In some states you're pretty mostly stuck building in either really rural towns or in unincorporated locations.

My own favorite alternative building technique is a "monolithic dome." [1] You get a form (an inflatable balloon in the shape you want the house, effectively) and literally spray a concrete and foam mixture on the inside; you can make a small house like OP or a huge building. Insulation is amazing, and it's weather-proof. They're rated safe against tornadoes, for instance. As a bonus, it's also fireproof, so you can put one up in the mountains and not worry about forest fires destroying it.

The frameless dome is a neat trick and an elegant design, but there are a dozen other techniques I'd rather use to build a "simple" home. It's more art project than practical building method.

[1] http://www.monolithic.com/

ZitchDog• 13 years ago

Exactly. This structure basically assumes you're living in the country somewhere. If you're willing to move out to the country, on a programmer's salary you could quickly save enough to pay cash for a smallish, newly constructed home with many modern comforts, such as "rooms".

SomeCallMeTim5• 13 years ago

I moved to Colorado from the SF Bay Area. I'm near Boulder and Denver, and can walk to a dozen restaurants, a grocery store, a bar, multiple cafes, and a big library with free Internet access (oddly enough, almost ALL of the above have free Internet access, now that I think of it -- even the grocery store). And if you like public transit, I'm really close to multiple bus lines, but the city I live in is also very bike friendly.

And I don't have a mortgage on my 2500 sq. ft. house. No living "in the country" necessary. ;) Similar house prices can be had in Denver proper as well, though I'm in more of a suburb.

Programmers can make a lot of money. If you don't waste it all, it's not hard to save up a lot. I only do paid work about half the time now; the other half I work on my own projects.

monkeynotes4• 13 years ago

This is exactly my dilemma. I've come up with numerous novel ways to live cheaply but all of them require a plot of land which always ruins the budget. Further compounding the problem is few banks will loan money for unbuilt land. Strangely the land is worth more than houses but in the eyes of a bank the house is what you secure the loan against.

flovec17• 13 years ago

Not true! I purchased 5 acres in Southwestern CO (with mountain views!) for 2 grand in cash. I built a small cabin, and program out of it. But, it lacks luxuries for my many "projects", so now I'm building a house.

http://frank.lovecch.io/projects/walden-ranch.html

netcan3• 13 years ago

Being inexpensive is just part of what makes this cool, part of the simplicity. Another part is ease of building. It makes me want to participate. I really do feel like going out right now and tinkering.

This structure and the post about it is art.

Thank you for sharing.

tootie2• 13 years ago

We also have a thing called apartment buildings. Hundreds of homes stacked vertically and centrally heated is still the efficiency champion.

samstave3• 13 years ago

Given that these domes don't float

This has been an idea I have been pushing around fro a while.

Building a living platform floating in the SFBay.

Admittedly, this has been nothing more than a day-dream - so I am unfamiliar with what imperial entanglements attach themselves to the reality of this....

But assuming that it can be done, what would be the barrier to entry for the following scenario:

* Standardized deployment platforms.

* Assume a Hex shape

* Standardized MEP+IT infra in the base of each platform.

* Set solar capacity for each platform

* A range of models of living spaces

* Communal-esque structure for shared work/meeting type spaces

* [a range of other options, I could go on and on]

---

I do not know the legal preclusions to an idea such as this... and clearly there are costing issues. But if you can have an open design for the platforms, figure out how to get them economically built - and provide the standards/spec requirements for the on-platform structures.. it may be viable, and while this has long been just a thought-exercise for me; I'll just ask the obvious: Anyone else interested in this type of thing?

stcredzero2• 13 years ago

I'll just ask the obvious: Anyone else interested in this type of thing?

http://www.seasteading.org/

Someone• 13 years ago

For inspiration: http://www.rohmer.nl/?view=detail&pageAlias=projecten&subAli...

ChrisNorstrom3• 13 years ago

If you live way out in the middle of nowhere the property taxes are TINY. $25/year for 2 acres. No building codes, tons of freedom.

My only issue with this awesome dome is that because of its shapes it wastes a lot of material. I'd like to see some kind of cube or cylinder shaped home built from square pieces that maximizes the material's use.

duncan_bayne2• 13 years ago

Depends where you live - if you're capable of working remotely, land can be incredibly cheap. AUD$49,000 gets you this:

http://www.realestate.com.au/200677503

"2.5 acres [10,117 m2 or 108,900 ft2] with a large flat area at the front of the block and some scattered timber at the back. Electricity at the front of the block and rural/town water available."

lifeformed• 13 years ago

Just 2.5 acres? Here's 160 acres for $39,000: http://www.marktwite.com/Drexel-montana-hunting-land-for-sal...

Of course, that puts you in the middle of nowhere, but it's like $240 an acre.

ballard• 13 years ago

The only way to scale it seems is for cities to go extremely vertical. Then if there were attractive choices for DIY housing that meets building code

The alternatives include taking on a longer commute or being farther from the action.

FriedPickles• 13 years ago

First acceptable use of the word "synergy" I've seen in a long time!

jquery3• 13 years ago

The efficient-home problem has already been solved. We call them manufactured homes. They're cheap, and are actually up-to-code for long-term living.

RyJones2• 13 years ago

they're cheap to acquire, but long-term, not so good. They're also very flimsy, so everything sort-of goes at once.

Yes, you can spend a lot more on one and get nicer finishes, but the end state is the floor sags and none of the doors shut.

jquery3• 13 years ago

It depends on what you mean by long-term and probably how well you take care of it. Growing up, I lived in one for years with no issues. So did my best friend, for even longer (at least a decade, no issues with sagging or warping). And this was in the rainy, wet Pacific Northwest.

I dare say they are better built than the flimsy plastic tent we saw linked in the OP.

stevewilhelm• 13 years ago

Ah, what's old is new again. http://www.bagginsend.net/

xradionut• 13 years ago

I live in tornado alley in a area with extremely summer temps and the occasional wild fire. These are the domes we recommend:

http://www.monolithic.com/

stcredzero2• 13 years ago

Monolithic domes are a wonder and a seeming paradox. You get an earthquake-proof, tornado-proof, bullet-proof, bomb-proof, collision-with-a-barrelling-semi-proof reinforced concrete structure that goes up almost instantly. But if you get a pin-prick in the vinyl airform, you have to deal with vapor-drive of water into the polyurethane foam, and your structure gets damaged.

http://www.monolithic.com/stories/vapor-drive

That said, there are ways of protecting your air-form, and if you do that, these things look to be nigh indestructible.

erikig• 13 years ago

I enjoyed his write-up, his discussions on motivations, as well as the pictures of his early attempts.

I'm a big fan of thinking outside the box (pun intended).

Somewhat related to his thoughts on home structures is the shipping container home movement that has been gradually picking up steam. Insulated shipping containers make great home frames and it would be nice to see similar grassroots discussions on the challenges of setting them up as well as success stories.

crb002• 13 years ago

Only the shell remains in Montreal. The dome plastic burned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Biosph%C3%A8re

zacjszewczyk• 13 years ago

Absolutely loved this article. Very impressive! I really hope you go on to write more about this dome. I would be very, very interesting in reading more about its construction and some of the challenges you faced along the way.

ChuckMcM• 13 years ago

Excellent article, love the simplification. I recall reading about a guy who was building houses out of burlap bags and dirt and trying to get them approved as acceptable habitable structures in California and was running into all sorts of roadblocks.

seansoutpost• 13 years ago

Tis is really awesome.

If it's cool with you, I'm going to build one of these to house homeless is Satoshi Forest (http://bitcoinmagazine.com/6939/seans-outpost-announces-sato...).

Seems like a rather elegant solution.

robododo• 13 years ago

So... plastic + blue foam + blue foam + plastic.

This sounds extremely flammable. Are any of your materials actually code-rated for a living structure (as you're using them)? Last I checked, stuff like blue foam board needs to be used in specific ways, such as behind fire-rated walls. You cannot leave any of it exposed, or it's a fire hazard.

dugmartin• 13 years ago

Flame retardant corrugated plastic sheets do exist (my brother used several hundred of them for an event inside a hotel). I'm not sure if it would be enough of a firewall for blueboard though.

brudgers3• 13 years ago

As an architect, I appreciate many of the ideas expressed via the design - in particular seeking a reduced footprint.

However, while many US jurisdictions might not require a building permit for this structure due to its size, it would typically not be exempt from building codes and as a habitable structure and more importantly as a dwelling, the design does not meet fundamental principles embodied in modern building codes.

While the principle of occupant safety is fairly obvious and its susceptibility to liberatarian objections predicable, the code embodies a further less obvious principle, that of first responder safety. Doors and windows have size and operational requirements to allow fire-fighters to get in and back out. Structural systems have structural requirements and combustibility limits for the same reason. Buildings need to be anchored to keep them from blowing into neighboring structures in a storm.

Most people are urbanized, and the structural problems of housing is harder than can be solved by tents in the wilderness. Anyplace that this is a viable alternative for long term dwelling, it is likely that so is a used trailer or a building of recycled and scavenged materials.

Again, I appreciate the design and the aesthetic effort and the ideas it expresses. I just can't get carried away over an academic exercise.

tjic2• 13 years ago

While the principle of occupant safety is fairly obvious and its susceptibility to liberatarian objections predicable

As an extreme libertarian (an anarcho capitalist) and as a pretty experienced builder, I'd like to say that no libertarian I've met is against the concept of occupant safety. We are, however, fairly likely to be against the assertion that government regulations are the only way to achieve this, or the best way.

Underwriter's Labs is an example many libertarians invoke: a private free-market safety licensing firm that other firms voluntarily pay for, so that they can advertise to consumers the safety of their products.

I note that government regulation is subject to regulatory capture: one-pipe urinals (non flushing) are made illegal because it would result in less work for plumbers, efficient PEX pipes are delayed again because of concerns that it would lower housing costs, engineered lumber that is approved in one area is not approved in others, etc.

I build to code (and well above code, sometimes) because I care about safety and I care about craftsmanship, but there is a LOT that's stupid in government regulation.

mpyne3• 13 years ago

Regulatory stupidity is hardly limited to the government though. Have you never tried to implement a Microsoft "standard"?

While UL is certainly nice enough, how many people know to look for it when they buy appliances? And how does this avoid in general the problem that if UL becomes too onerous, the affected appliance makers simply start their own voluntary licensing firm with better results?

"Oh, but people would never fall for that!" Sure they would, that was the whole point to the "Intel Inside" marketing campaign.

So while I deeply appreciate the types of examples you point out (getting to see them every day from within the bowels of Mount DoD), I worry that when people talk about the problems with "government _______" that they focus on 'government' and don't pay attention at all to the inherent problems with _______.

But just as government can't fix the issues inherent in problems, they are not always the inherent problem themselves.

(P.S. guess who is the only entity to ever tell me to 'look for UL'?... the government, that's who, during our yearly fire safety briefs).

brudgers3• 13 years ago

UL exists in its incarnation because of government regulation - e.g. electrical components have UL listings because the NFPA 72(aka The National Electrical Code) requires electrical components to be listed. The same is true for the styrene panels used in the design of the structure.

The insurance under-writers (the "U" in "UL") were the driving force in establishing building codes and fire fighting as a public service. Of course the next turtle down is that property insurance allows banks to finance real property in accordance with financial regulations. [edit: the last turtle being legal title to real property recorded at the courthouse - and title to which in many places can be traced back to royal grant.]

Anyone active in the US housing industry ought to be aware that the current requiring fire sprinklers in single family dwellings is a direct result of insurance industry lobbying on the ICC. Or to put it another way, UL is part of the establishment and its members lobby heavily in favor of regulation.

e12e3• 13 years ago

AFAIK there are no such codes in Kansas, at least according to Lessman:

http://www.surfaceandsurfacephotography.com/photoblog/surfac...

So you're basically free to build your own house (for better or worse).

netcan3• 13 years ago

What would this need to make it permit-able?

GeneralMayhem• 13 years ago

Walls that can survive a moderate-to-severe thunderstorm would probably be a good first step.

jlgreco2• 13 years ago

Could you just claim it isn't a building but rather a "ridged tent", and cite the quick disassemble/reassemble capability as evidence of that?

brudgers3• 13 years ago

Claiming it's a tent is one thing, convincing the fire marshal is another. Plumbing and electrical service probably won't weigh in one's favor.

ams61102• 13 years ago

As a practical matter, anywhere that you can get away with living in one of these is not going to be someplace where "first responders" are going to be close enough to make a difference.

jmaygarden• 13 years ago

I live in Florida, and my first thought was "hell no." Imagine the damage it would do when the first hurricane sends it flying through the air.

peller• 13 years ago

@brucehauman Truly exceptional work. This post literally made my day; I can't thank you enough for spending the time to write and share it. I especially like the smart utilization of 4x8 panels with minimal waste and the tiny BOM required for construction. As someone with a fair amount of construction experience myself, the amount of engineering thought you've put into this project clearly shines through.

It's innovators like you who make this world a better place; keep up the great work and don't ever let the critics get under your skin!!

prawn2• 13 years ago

Wonder if there'd be interest in a smaller, clear version of this as a greenhouse. Something that could be laser cut and packed down to a postable package. Light enough that you could lift and place it over your seedlings.

contingencies8• 13 years ago

That degree of structural integrity is overkill for a greenhouse. Just get some bamboo poles with a sheet of transparent plastic and you're done: instant greenhouse.

prawn2• 13 years ago

You should see my effort at doing that previously. Ugly stuff! Had problems with even a light wind and the plastic staying in place, sagging, etc.

What I had in mind with the dome of plates was something that would almost stand out as a feature in the garden.

I guess an issue with the dome approach that'd need solving was making it fairly airtight so warm air and moisture would be retained.

sliverstorm• 13 years ago

I don't follow the opining for the "handcrafted" houses of yore, presumably ones that have been around for the aforementioned 5 generations. Have you lived in such houses? They are generally pretty crappy. Nothing is a standard size (making maintenance a nightmare), any and all building materials have started to break down, and the owners have almost always completely neglect updating the house. For example, replacing their old plate-glass single-pane windows.

tootie2• 13 years ago

Where does the electricity come from and where does his bodily effluence go?

saalweachter3• 13 years ago

Is this significantly cheaper than a standard frame structure with comparable amenities?

I priced out the materials for building a small "office shed" with no electricity or running water, and came up with a price tag of something like $2000 for a 10x10 structure, assuming completely conventional 2x4's, fiberglass insulation, and off-the-shelf doors and windows. I've not yet followed through on it, but I feel pretty confident that you could build a pretty serviceable pretty conventional structure for not-too-much-money in not-too-much-time.

sp3325• 13 years ago

10x10 is half the floor space of this dome.

saalweachter3• 13 years ago

Yes. The structure I priced out was also only 8 feet tall.

About half the cost -- if I recall -- was doors, windows, and skylights, and the other half was the walls, ceiling, and floor. So you'd expect a structure with roughly double the surface area to be roughly $3000 instead of $2000. Depending on material choices, you would probably end up with a cost of between $2000 and $4000 by the time you put the last coat of paint on it. Again, having not actually followed through I don't have a final bill of materials. I could have over-estimated the cost of something, or forgotten something else entirely.

But the point is the same. Is $2100 really that cheap, when compared to a $4000 stick-frame structure with comparable function, or is it only cheap when compared to a $40,000 house with a bathroom, kitchen, furnace, water heater, and appliances?

davidbanham• 13 years ago

Bear in mind that a square, straight sided structure will have a higher ratio of usable to unusable floor space than a dome.

VLM• 13 years ago

I don't think there's many homeowners or wannabe carpenters on HN...

If you go to a typical Home Depot, at least around here, they have a wide variety of outdoor "garden sheds" on display for all price ranges from $1K to $6K or so. You're talking about one around the $4K size, just a little too small and underengineered to frame a garage door opening.

Then you need to add the additional stuff, insulation, windows, etc. You can add that as you go. Its cheap to frame in a window opening and later install a window.

My grandfather turned a very large garden shed into what amounts to a workshop when I was a kid. I guess a workshop with plumbing is a small house.

I would advise anyone making an outdoor workshop or whatever to do the substantial structural reinforcement needed to install doors at both ends. Not just for convenience of driving cars thru, but the incredible opportunity for shade and ventilation two doors provides. The structural reinforcement required was huge / amazing all I remember was multiple 2x10 beams.. without a cross member its susceptible to folding from wind unless the joints are ridiculously overbuilt, which they were... An a-frame would have been infinitely simpler structurally than trying to make something that looks like a conventional garden fence.

dalanmiller• 13 years ago

Where is the toilet.

jacob_smith• 13 years ago

I would love to see some more of the blog concerning windows/doors/electricity -- any showers or water running to the dome?

marknowotarski• 13 years ago

As I look at the dome versus the trees I wonder: Why do animals seek to isolate themselves from the environment and plants seek to permeate it? No judgement, just curious.

Goladus3• 13 years ago

I wouldn't say that's an accurate generalization for all plants.

But to the extent it's true, my theory is because most plants are by nature immobile. Sunlight is everywhere so moving much would be a waste of energy. So plants grow, shrink, open, close, turn, hibernate, but they can not move to a more sheltered location. They must stay where their roots are and face whatever hostile conditions they might encounter (winds, cold, snow, rain, predators, etc.). Mobile, food-hunting animals, on the other hand tend to have fewer natural defenses against harsh environmental conditions and predators. So they rely on shelters (found or built) for protection instead. Mammals adapted to a particular type of harsh conditions are less likely to seek shelter from them. (eg American Bison, for example, are adapted to handle cold and snow.) Cold-blooded reptiles may use shelters but at times environment may compel them to leave the shelter in order to bask in the sun to increase their body temperature.

It's also partly a semantic issue. "Environment" tends to imply a background that contains mobile actors. Stationary plants thus are environment, moreso than animals.

contingencies8• 13 years ago

Neither of you mentioned fungi, which we are closer to than plants, and which truly permeate.

dalke4• 13 years ago

Steward Brand, in "How Buildings Learn: What Happens After They’re Built", "asserts that the best buildings are made from low-cost, standard designs that people are familiar with, and easy to modify. In this way people can gradually change their buildings to meet their needs." (Quoting Wikipedia.)

One example was living in a trailer in New Mexico, which can be winterized by surrounding it by straw bales, then turned into walls, and expanded as needed. Another was living in an old wooden boat, on land, where it was trivial to cut a hole if you wanted it.

That's much in line with the philosophy behind this dome, which several others here agree with.

However, Brand also specifically dislikes domes, because they are difficult to expand, or to add internal divisions. For a single person, who does not need partitions or extra space, this is not a problem. (Nor would it be a problem if it were cheap to tear down and rebuild an entirely new structure.)

For a family or group of people, it is less tenable, as others here have also pointed out.

shadowOfShadow• 13 years ago

Where's the geodesic toilet?

kingmanaz• 13 years ago

Corrugated steel is an often overlooked building material, particularly for tiny houses:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Z4MwyfNR-Ek/TbNYZHvul_I/AAAAAAAAY5...

Photo taken in Chloride, AZ. Many of the small homes in the town have their original iron siding and are well over 100 years old.

This book has more information: http://www.amazon.com/Corrugated-Iron-Simon-Holloway-Morneme...

ChrisNorstrom3• 13 years ago

You know what would be awesome.

If everyone on Hacker News pitched into a fund, bought some land out in the middle a beautiful but isolated place in the rockies and created a weekend getaway for coders using something similar to these little Geodesic Dome houses.

LAMike• 13 years ago

Hacker paradise... with farming powered by Aurdiuno robots and a mini hyperloop that takes you anywhre on the property in a second haha

contingencies8• 13 years ago

I'm working on it in New Zealand.

micro_cam• 13 years ago

My parent's moved to the rural north west in the early 70's and knew people who attempted the dome lifestyle. By the time I was born in 1981 they had all moved on and built traditional houses.

There are issues with domes that aren't apparent to the novice builder. Besides questions about if being an efficient use of space the numerous angled joints make them very difficult to weather seal/roof so they tend to leak.

A simple, passive solar rectangular design from sips (structured insulating panels) is much more efficient and quicker to put up. You order the panels pre built and routed for doors/windows/plumbing. Rectangular panels means you need to bolt them together in fewer places.

I think david wright's high sierra cabin is a great example of what is possible using this construction method:

http://davidwrightarchitect.com/cabins/

THough i have also seen simpler plans more in line with this dome.

sopooneo• 13 years ago

My little backwater hometown in Maine raged with ideas like this in the seventies, just before I entered the world. One or two families still live in buildings of similar feel. But most got normal walls with plumbing and lots of TV's once the children outnumbered.

A few of my generation picked up the torch in the nineties, and I happen to know of one off-the-grid dome lived in by a classmate of mine. Though he's married now and no matter how much "Little House" she has read, I find it's a rare wife that wouldn't prefer a conventional stove by year five or so.

So when I see these posts I smile for my own parents' optimism and naivete. And I also feel desperately, overwhelmingly homesick. That garden reads as Eden to my eye. So props to the builder. I hope you make lots of great memories there.

SamBoogie• 13 years ago

Dope. All hail Bucky!

hippich• 13 years ago

Where is restroom?

wolfv• 13 years ago

Thanks for the post Bruce.

Have you considered applying aluminum foil to the outer shell with contact cement, to eliminate solar gain and plastic breakdown?

ommunist• 13 years ago

In the UK materials cost goes roughly the same nominal, only in GBP. Makes such projects more expensive, but does not make them less attractive. Thank you for sharing.

justnope• 13 years ago

Charlatan.

batemanesque• 13 years ago

given that so many people don't have any access to housing at all it seems somewhat myopic to criticize the fact that construction generally aims for efficiency rather than beauty.

the dome looks nice but is stuff like this really a viable alternative for anyone other than a small well-off slice of the population? how does the cost of not having a kitchen compare to what you save in building materials?

sequoia• 13 years ago

What land is this put on? Did you buy it or is it a friend's? Maybe I missed that part, I didn't read the whole article closely; it's kind of an important question because it may change your project price from $2,100 to $302,100 depending on your location.

A search for "toilet" "bathroom" and "poop" yielded no results however, as did searches for "kitchen" "cook" "stove" and "range." Assuming OP eats food (hackers still do that, no?) and poops, it seems there is more to this living arrangement than is described in this article.

I don't know the situation but put a gun to my head and force me to speculate and I'll say "This guy is living on a friend's land & relying on the resources in his friend's house." There's no shame in that but it's disingenuous to sweep it under the rug and pretend your abode is an "alternative" to a house when it in fact relies on a house.

jonnathanson• 13 years ago

It's got to be something like that. Either that, or he's living on public land somewhere -- and if so, he's probably in violation of at least a few laws, and is in danger of getting kicked out (or even arrested) if found. Alternatively, he owns some land and simply built this dome on it instead of a traditional house. The latter shows a remarkable amount of self-discipline, restraint, and delightful eccentricity, but it hides what is probably a major cost, i.e., the land itself.

Don't get me wrong; I found the article really cool. Really cool. Inspiring, in a way. And major props to the author for hacking this all together. But I agree: there's a side of this story not being discussed, and it's a pretty important side. Implying that someone can live on little more than $2,100 in building materials seems like a bit of a stretch, and I'm curious to know how much of one.

graue3• 13 years ago

The author comments elsewhere that there's no plumbing[1], and that this is in the mountains of North Carolina[2] (presumably near Asheville, which his twitter bio lists as a location).

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6355787

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6355875

lazyant• 13 years ago

Love to see people building and trying out things.

Some architect correct me but isn't a spherical-shaped house the worst case scenario for insulation? you have the biggest volume of air to heat/cool down with the largest surface to insulate and for heat to come in or go out, plus a pretty small surface footprint.

sp3325• 13 years ago

A sphere gives the most internal volume for the least surface area.

Goladus3• 13 years ago

The main question I have is not how hard it would be to stack these as with an apartment building, but how hard would it be to connect a small network of these into a single-floor house with rooms for different purposes?

fakename• 13 years ago

paging @FalseMedium

GDieken• 13 years ago

The reason geodesic homes didn't make it out of the 70s (except at Burning Man and radar installations) is that you can't build a structure more prone to leaking in the rain or even a heavy dew. Solve that problem and domes become a meaningful option. Otherwise they're a mental exercise.

Pitarou2• 13 years ago

Shingling.

And if you check the post carefully, you'll see that it is carefully designed so the pieces overlap like shingles.

bwooce• 13 years ago

Dome houses are initially appealing but ultimately and practically have too many flaws to be useful. Single room houses may be an exception.

Read this http://www.shelterpub.com/_shelter/domebuilder's_blues.html and see how many of the concerns are addressed in this design.

Lloyd was passionate about domes, but came to realize their flaws. Most of these are applicable today despite the materials improvements over the last 30+ years.

hardworkisfun• 13 years ago

Wow awesome, love your writing and thinking Bruce. Would love to hear more about your thoughts on doing what you want, despite not getting paid for it and minimizing your lifestyle.

Pitarou2• 13 years ago

I just want to highlight what's important about this design:

IT'S FRAMELESS

This drastically brings down the costs.

There are still disadvantages, of course -- the inflexible shape and lack of large, flat, vertical surfaces is a problem for most applications -- but the dome is now so much cheaper that, in some niches, they're worth a second look. I can well imagine, for instance, mass-produced geodesic haybarns based on this design.

tedsy• 13 years ago

Brilliant! And smooth abd clean. Saw it on Boing. I helped build a dome in the late 60's. I think it ended up like your total utter failure - but I was gone by then. I like the idea of using such a thing as a (flat) roof-top shelter on a garage or something (me downtowner). And I'm highly amused that all the commentary I had the stamina to scan was about housing prices and nothing about structure. cheers, Good Luck, Tedsy

boofitz• 13 years ago

When I saw this, my 1st thought was how useful these would be in refugee camps: much more humane housing than tents!

wholeo• 13 years ago

Having lived in a 16' dome based on Fuller's bamboo dome for two years, my main interest in your Frameless Dome was how the bolt holes and seams were waterproofed. Also, how did you reach the outer panels for replacement? And how did that affect the waterproofing. You said it was easy. But how exactly.

Ratso• 13 years ago

I really like this. I live in the country and I'm currently in a 2400 square foot house but I want to downsize. I could see having one of these as well as something else like a shipping container or Quonset hut (I live in a hurricane area so I'd need to have something I could ride one out in if necessary -- though I wonder if your design would have similar functionality to the geodesic radar domes in the far north). Do you have more pictures from when you constructed it? I'd like to see the individual shapes comprised of the corrugated polystyrene and foam insulation and a close up of how the bolts work. Where did you buy the large pieces of polystyrene? I have similar motivations as you, I want to live cheaply and learn new programming.

The Frameless Geodesic Dome I currently live in

Related Stories