The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

https://orkohunter.net/blog/the-trap-of-introversion/

by orkohunter • 2 years ago

266 442 2 years ago

Vampiero• 2 years ago

Well too bad ADHD makes me a fast thinker that talks over everyone else and writes code at 6x speed, but only sometimes, when I'm not procrastinating for hours at a time and when I'm not too mentally drained to engage with other people. It makes me an extrovert at work, but only sometimes, and a great team player, but only sometimes.

These blog posts feel so dumb to me because they always assume that you're a neurotypical and that everyone around you also is a neurotypical. That if you just put in the effort, you too can do it!

Well guess what? No, it's not like that. In fact, this mode of thinking is exactly the problem that makes my life hell. Fuck this. If I'm working remotely it's because idgaf about other people - not any more than strictly necessary to complete my tasks. Stop trying to gaslight me into thinking I'm wrong, stop trying to force me to go on trips and to delegate and to talk to other people - this is an adaptation for my own survival. I went into programming because I like writing code. That's literally the start and the end of it. It's not my fault the industry is 99% web development and 1% fun stuff for people on [a] spectrum. I'm here because if I weren't I would starve, not because I care about your company or the people you hired. Even though I'll gladly chit-chat with them from time to time, and even form friendships if I deem it worth it.

kkoncevicius• 2 years ago

I think you are taking yourself too seriously.

mnky9800n2• 2 years ago

Can’t imagine this attitude makes work easier for you nor does it make working with you easier. People keep making these “I’m on the spectrum” arguments as if it’s a legitimate excuse for bad behaviour. Perhaps life is more difficult for you in some ways. Life isn’t fair, learning to accept this is much more rewarding than hiding behind some spectrum definition. ADHD doesn’t make you do anything. You choose your life.

zenethian2• 2 years ago

I mean, it literally does make you do things. That's why it's a mental disorder.

erinaceousjones2• 2 years ago

What, in the post you are replying to, would you consider "bad behaviour"? Seriously, give us some examples!

creaktive3• 2 years ago

Heyyy, take it easy :) Would you call it “bad behavior” when a mute person refuses to speak? Well, A(u)DHD kind of makes one deaf, mute and blind to the standard communication style. That’s why the afflicted prefer to WFH, and text instead of face-to-face. Some are always impaired so, while others, only when tired.

int_19h2• 2 years ago

ADHD doesn’t make you do anything.

It literally does.

delichon• 2 years ago

I was a fat little kid with a skinny friend who told me the secret to losing weight (which he had never had the need to do): just don't eat so much. He was not gas lighting me in any way. He was just communicating his internal experience that this thing that I found tremendously difficult was in fact trivially easy and I just had to try it. He wasn't lying, just telling me his truth which happened to be false. Don't attribute malice to obliviousness.

drowsspa• 2 years ago

I'd attribute malice when this advice comes from supposedly grown-ups.

creaktive3• 2 years ago

Was going to write approximately this, thanks for beating me to it. Just a bit of sparkling from my own (mostly miserable) experience: the disdain for “normies” comes from them, “normies”, forcing a square peg (me, atypical) into a round hole. There’s zero intention for accommodating for the differences. Predictably, as a result you get an extremely antisocial introvert. But guess what! If you just LEAVE ME BE, respect my silence and self-isolation… I will reach out and try to connect, on my own terms. Usually, by written text, since I don’t parse voices well, and don’t read facial expressions at all.

knorker4• 2 years ago

What they don’t realize is - everyone is an introvert and everyone is an extrovert.

Citation needed.

I looked into his eyes and saw the disgust for everyone in the room.

That's not how human interaction or theory of mind works.

This article is "not even wrong". It's just subjective bullshit (in the technical definition of the word bullshit).

It's probably the most ill informed post I've ever seen on the front page of HN.

SecretDreams4• 2 years ago

It's probably the most ill informed post I've ever seen on the front page of HN.

Ever seen so far

zenethian2• 2 years ago

This is a terrible article that reads like an AI generated LinkedIn post.

Nevermind the fact that the author isn't using the terms introvert and extrovert correctly; the message is quite ableist. Not everyone can achieve this level of communication in a productive manner. Telling people that management will "prefer" one over the other when it's "budget time" is also dead wrong. I've fired more extroverts than introverts in my career, and it's likely only a coincidence.

The author sounds like one of those "proud extroverts" that they made up into existence.

erinaceousjones2• 2 years ago

I think you have good points in your middle paragraph, but I disagree with your first sentence. I can see a growing trend of dismissive "this reads like it's AI-generated" when I frankly think it has been written like that. Author has a similar tone to me. That's my writing style.

Not everyone can achieve this level of communication in a productive manner.

Correct, and it sucks. I feel like it's ableist at times too. 9-to-5 days of small-talk are so strangely exhausting t me. It's very frustrating I feel it's a mandatory part of my career if I don't want to be forgotten about.

But? I don't disagree with the author. In my interpretation, they aren't saying "I'm an extrovert and I'm great", they're saying "hey, this is a thing you can choose to do or be, and you may find it benefits you, and the introvert/extrovert thing is a stupid distinction, but being extrovert in the right way is a means of making yourself visible".

Because, let's face it, it is. There is some entrenched ableism, in a way. Last I checked like 10-20% of western population is some form of neurodiverse and a proportion of that just do not click with the predominant communication styles used by the majority population. It sucks and we are left feeling like we are not accommodated for and can easily fall into that exhausted feeling of resentment.

But? So what? You can help make things incrementally better for yourself in the system whilst still "playing the game", if you consider it as something you are choosing to expend your energy on.

knorker4• 2 years ago

I held back a similar comment about AI-generated. I think the "AI-generated" accusation is overused. This article was incoherent nonsense, but not all incoherent nonsense hallucinations are AI-generated.

int_19h2• 2 years ago

The author straight up says that being an introvert or an extrovert is a choice.

They clearly have no idea what it actually feels like being an introvert.

HKH22• 2 years ago

There's a choice for an introvert to put on a front once they know how, but that's nowhere near becoming an extrovert.

bawolff9• 2 years ago

It also seems to assume that just because you don't want to socialize in some specific setting means you are an introvert or extrovert.

Everyone has people they like and people they don't. I've had co-workers i don't particularly like. Of course i am professional and polite to them at work and can work with them fine, but would i specificly go up to them at a party and chat? Probably not (i'd still be polite of course, just not specificly seek them out).

llm_nerd• 2 years ago

"Nevermind the fact that the author isn't using the terms introvert and extrovert correctly"

Is there a correct use? The most social, outgoing people I know universally declare themselves introverts because they, like every human in history, occasionally likes some alone time to "recharge". It's similar to how everyone has OCD because they like a tidy desk.

Make being an introvert a positive trait somehow and suddenly 100% of people are introverts.

There are sort-of clinical definitions (e.g. "have a limited social bandwidth and need to recharge") but they're so broadly applicable they are worthless.

There are other traits like social phobia or anxiety that often get intermixed with those, but they are very different qualities even if they manifest in a way that might get categorized.

I do consider myself an introvert. At a young age I would see stories where someone broke the rules (in prison, military boot camp, etc) and would be relegated to solitary. They'd get outdoor time, books, often even craft materials, etc, but they were all alone all day long. I could never understand how this was a punishment. It seemed absolutely magical.

card_zero2• 2 years ago

No matter what role you play, you will always have to communicate and collaborate with others. If this is something you disagree with, you should go back to the drawing board and think deeply.

Sounds good, that's what I wanted.

you should check out Thinking Fast and Slow.

I checked it out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow#Replic...

It was discovered many prominent research findings were difficult or impossible for others to replicate, and thus the original findings were called into question. An analysis of the studies cited in chapter 4, "The Associative Machine", found that their replicability index (R-index) is 14, indicating essentially low to no reliability.

brailsafe2• 2 years ago

Seems like you just did the most cursory of searches, found a negative pull quote about some studies in one chapter, and called it day. Much like reading the negative google reviews for a bar you were invited to instead of actually accepting the invitation and going, I'm not sure this qualifies as "checking it out"

card_zero2• 2 years ago

That's right, that is sufficient. Life is too short for me to investigate further, and the onus is on anybody who really wants to defend it to defend it.

I may very well be wrong, some books of the pop-psych self-help kind turn out to be pretty good. I enjoyed How to win friends and influence people. Unfortunately there are approximately nine billion similar books. This is why cursory and aggressively dismissive investigation is the correct approach.

vouaobrasil2• 2 years ago

One thing to me is fairly obvious: people who are introverts can be social, but only for limited amounts of time.

For example, I like talking a lot, but I can only do it for limited amounts of time. Maybe only a few hours a week. If I'm pushed past that point, I just don't want to chat any more. It's like I'm full of food, but with socialization. After that I find socialization immensely distasteful and irritating.

That's why a 9-5 workplace environment never worked for me. It was forced socialization past my limit. Maybe that's what happened to the guy in this article: they go into defensive mode because they are pushed past their limit.

Extroverts don't understand this concept of limited capacity for socialization.

fnord772• 2 years ago

people who are introverts can be social

not if they have social anxiety or are not NT

but only for limited amounts of time.

but yes, this is true. And it is not something you can build up like a muscle or long distance running. In fact I think trying to build up the amount of time you socialize actually diminishes it

zimpenfish• 2 years ago

not if they have social anxiety

I have (frequent) crippling social anxiety, am definitely an introvert, and I can be social -in the right circumstances-[0] (albeit for a limited period of time[1].)

[0] eg. small group of people I know well, familiar surroundings, ideally without a lot of external noise.

[1] 3-4 hours tends to be my limit even under the best circumstances.

michaelcampbell2• 2 years ago

Everything is true except for the edge cases where it's not; pointing this out I think is unnecessary.

SecretDreams4• 2 years ago

Extroverts don't understand this concept of limited capacity for socialization.

I think there's gotta be a middle ground where someverts are more tolerant of socializing for long periods of time. It still becomes draining, but they don't have some terrible allergic reaction. More like just mild sneezing!

neofrommatrix• 2 years ago

It’s a spectrum - most of us are ambiverts.

RoyalHenOil2• 2 years ago

Introversion level is really just a measure of how much social stimulation you require on average. Everyone has some level above which they feel exhausted and below which they feel lonely/bored.

LouisSayers2• 2 years ago

Most people would understand, some play dumb, and some people just have low IQ...

amelius• 2 years ago

I also find that switching between introvert and extrovert mode takes effort. If you like being in an introvert mode, then in social environments you move a lot of times between both modes (because you fall back into introvert mode, until someone starts talking to you), and this can be tiring.

inciampati3• 2 years ago

Yes, extroverts do understand this limited capacity. It's like when you live an ultra sedentary lifestyle, and one day you realize you can't catch your breath after walking up four flights of stairs. Like any capacity, socializing requires exercise. We are all descended from a long line of people who lived extremely social lives. It's only in the last decade or two that it became possible to live a productive live by text, alone, without the intense realtime, full mind and full body experience of being with other people. Use it or lose it. And don't assume socialization is easy for some class of "extroverts" who are dominating "introverts" into being full members of the organizations which they work for. It's hard, worthwhile work for everyone. Socialization capacity is like any trait. You have to use it or you'll lose it. I say this because I think modern life is depopulating as people decide they have a condition that's some kind of innate disability. I wish y'all would accept that it's just hard, but worth it.

vouaobrasil2• 2 years ago

Good counterpoint but I think there's definitely a variance in ease amongst the population. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I am the kind of person that will socialize because I know it's a good thing in general. But I do think some people can perform "socialization feats" just in the same way the best bodybuilders can get super jacked whereas there is no way I'm lookin' like Arnold. haha.

jrs2352• 2 years ago

Extroverts also need to work on sitting in silence, IMO...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42517790

ACow_Adonis• 2 years ago

So what you're saying is that extroversion is curable with a bit of a change of social behaviours and environment, and with a bit of practice, discipline and repetition we can turn them into mathematicians, farmers, hunters, philosophers, scientists, monks, priests and witch doctors and negate this artificial always networking and hustling environment that's only been created in the last 200 years with the industrial revolution, communication revolution and growth obsessed capitalism :)

This gives me hope: there's no silver bullet, but one day we can find a cure for our modern curse of excessive extroversion :)

blueflow13• 2 years ago

Or maybe "I'm introverted" i just the nice form for "You are annoying and i don't enjoy being around you".

Dalewyn• 2 years ago

We are all descended from a long line of people who lived extremely social lives.

Just because something was a necessity for a greater cause in ye olde days does not mean that it is also a good thing in itself. Now that it's not a strict necessity, a not insignificant number of people are admitting they don't like it.

Personally I consider myself more intro- than extrovert. I find people dishonest (even the most honest ones) and dealing with that reality is extremely tiring.

lolinder9• 2 years ago

We are all descended from a long line of people who lived extremely social lives. It's only in the last decade or two that it became possible to live a productive live by text, alone, without the intense realtime, full mind and full body experience of being with other people.

Most of us are descended from people who lived in small communities and rarely interacted with people who lived outside of them. It's only in the last 200 years (an instant on evolutionary timescales) that the majority of humanity ended up in a position where we have to constantly deal with more than ~30 people on a regular basis.

Sure, we spent a lot of time with those 30 people in the past, but calling that "extremely social" is pretty misleading in the modern context—today that kind of wording evokes a very different image than the small-scale village life that dominated our ancestors' lives.

I'm a hardcore introvert by modern standards, but for me that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy spending time with my small circle of friends and family, it means that when I branch out beyond that small circle socialization is actively draining. I'd have done just fine in village life, it's the completely unnatural modern world that is overwhelming to my social limits, and I get rather tired of extroverts telling me that it's just because I don't try hard enough to "exercise".

siva7• 2 years ago

So you seriously think that humans two, three decades ago were extroverted because they couldn't live a productive life by not being extremely sociable and introverted is an unnatural condition where you just need more social excercise? Is this the intellectual level of this community now?

yabatopia• 2 years ago

Socializing is a skill and requires exercise, but everyone has its own unique limitations and skill levels. Not everyone throughout history has led an exceptionally social life filled with constant conversation. There are plenty of references to quiet and seclusive people in the bible, for instance. In the Middle Ages, you could join a monastery or convent, which provided a community more suited for introverts. Right now, I wouldn’t be surprised if many introverts feel there is no escape from the extrovert modern life.

theshrike79• 2 years ago

We are all descended from a long line of people who lived extremely social lives

Do you think the hunters who were huntering kept chatting all the time? Or the gatherers looking for berries/mushrooms just talked and talked and talked and judged anyone who went by themselves?

Did the goat herder have people walk up the hill with them to prattle on about their family life or could they perhaps be alone in there? Or any craftsman for that matter. The cobbler could just spend time making shoes, they didn't need to talk to customers for 12 hours a day constantly.

SpicyLemonZest• 2 years ago

And don't assume socialization is easy for some class of "extroverts" who are dominating "introverts" into being full members of the organizations which they work for.

I don’t assume that - people tell me as much! I have close friends who assure me that socializing is not hard work for them, and they’d yap all day if they didn’t control themselves the same way that I would read or play games all day if I didn’t control myself.

NikolaNovak3• 2 years ago

None of that jives with any of my observations.

In my immediate circle alone - my sister is a strong extrovert and always has been. She thrives on large groups. If she's stressed and wants to relax she'll go to a party or downtown dance club or hang out with a dozen acquaintances. She's been that way since tween. I bring her up because she's very upfront, and I trust and believe her, that social engagements alone are NOT, and never have been, hard work or effort. They're natural to her, she gains energy from them, she enjoys them tremendously, and gets recharged through them. This is not my external observation but her convincing expression. I know others like that.

Then there's me :-). Lot of that, such as parties and dance clubs and even large groups of friends, sounds awful to me. Easy on assumptions though : As per my parallel comment, I've been a client-facing consultant for 20 years. I practice and teach soft skills and emotional intelligence at fairly high level at work. Having started as a hands-on techie for the first decade of my career, I haven't written a line of code since 2018 - ALL I do now is talk to and manage and coach and mentor people, meet with clients, etc. I spend about 7 hrs a day actively engaging people professionally.

And it's still as draining as it is rewarding and enjoyable. 20 years of active practice and daily high level socialization has not meaningfully moved the needle on whether I gain energy from people, like my sister always has, or drain energy even with people I enjoy doing activity I like.

Absolutely there's detail and granularity to this - I love teaching and have been a visiting professor for 3 years at local college. I love mentoring and coaching and do it daily. But at the end do the day I strongly crave alone time to recharge after social activities (which is what I call "being an introvert"), whereas I know people (I call them extrovert) who simply don't need that, at all. The notion that simply practice can change that, hasn't been the case for anybody I know.

You can gain skills and that's indeed worthwhile! But that does not automatically alter the energy management situation.

So my apologies, but your post is the most literal proof that some extroverts don't understand this, at all, and like Freud, make wild assumptions based on limited internal experience :-/. It's less of a capacity thing, which I'll agree may get expanded, and more of what does activity do and how does it draw on that capacity.

antonvs• 2 years ago

We are all descended from a long line of people who lived extremely social lives.

This is an incorrect rationalization of your own prejudices, nothing more.

I wish y'all would accept that it's just hard, but worth it.

You need to accept that your personal experience is not universal. It's one of the most basic realizations a thinking human needs to have.

irobeth• 2 years ago

Is anyone else like me? A little socializing goes a really long way for me. I don't hate it, it's not exhausting, I can do it well, and I'm generally seen as a fun person to talk with.

I'm an introvert but not because my "social battery" is discharged by socializing, but instead because I need to discharge in solitude

I have unlimited social stamina and can do it forever, if by forever you mean that if I'm left in socializing without that necessary solitude I will spin off into mania and eventually get in serious trouble

markeroon• 2 years ago

Extroverts don't understand this concept of limited capacity for socialization.

Othering >50% of your audience isn’t the best way to make a point, and plenty of extroverts understand this concept perfectly well (myself as an example).

khendron• 2 years ago

You are right, but it doesn't take many extroverts not understanding this concept to make it feel like it's everybody :)

My mother, for example, is a serious extrovert. When I explained to her that socializing seriously drains me and I need to, for example, spend time alone after attending a party, her response was to ask if I'd seen a therapist about it.

coldtea• 2 years ago

Saying what some outliers do doesn't refute a statement about what most in a group do...

litenboll• 2 years ago

I agree that making an absolute statement like that is not great. But surely, if you understand the concept, you also know that it's way too common for extroverts having zero understanding that some people need to be alone to recharge. They'll call you boring when you don't want to go out after being at the office for 8 hours already, for example. "Come on, it will be so much fun! What will you do when you get home? Play games lol? Come on get out in the world and meet some people!!" It's also very common for extroverts to assume that just because you need to recharge by not being with people that introverts don't like being with people in the first place.

Social energy for me is a bit like physical energy. I love working out, but then I get tired and need to rest. In this analogy the extroverts somehow gets more energy while working out. That part is very hard for me to understand.

The pandemic was a total eye opener for me. I always thought that (ever since I started working) I didn't like to go to after works, nor parties in the weekend. What I realized was that I really love those things, but that my social battery drains completely at the office so I needed the evenings and most of the weekend to keep running. Hybrid work has complete changed my ability to socialize outside work.

more_corn2• 2 years ago

This is only true for shallow connections. Introverts can talk for hours in deeply interesting and satisfying conversations. People they love and trust or people with whom they share a deep connection. Your task is to define and identify your tribe and work to surround yourself with those people. (Check in on your emotions regularly, identify who you connect with, identify how to replicate that) And then actively grow your tribe. One trick you will learn is that changing the way you perceive others changes your ability to connect with them.

forgotoldacc• 2 years ago

Or not just limited amounts of time, but limited types of people.

I have some friends who I have no trouble talking with all day. But with the overwhelming majority of people I meet, even if we get along well, I feel exhausted after too much interaction.

Dealing with some types of "extroverts" is particularly tiring due to not caring about the weird formalities and talking around things that a lot do to seem "friendly". It's like dealing with an MBA--using pointlessly fluffy language to say pointless "pleasant" things and being so afraid to step on any toes that their statements are just boring and void of any substance. But there are also some extroverts who know how to gauge your personality in an instant and know whether you're the type who likes the fluffy stuff, or you want to jump right into talking about specific subjects.

Then there are fellow introverts, and unfortunately, it becomes obvious how bad my own personality and conversation skills are with them. Lots of super brief answers and not engaging in any discussion. But I guess when you're the one talking to an introvert, even as an introvert, it's easy to come across as one of the aforementioned annoying extroverts.

pydry• 2 years ago

I've never been able to distinguish this from simply being shy. More shyness means more stress in certain social interactions and stress is tiring.

Moreover, I'm pretty sure you could take the most extroverted person around and take them out of their social element and they too would tire out.

And vice versa, some of the most introverted people don't get tired out by their spouse.

LouisSayers2• 2 years ago

Even as an extrovert you get people who just ramble.

In a social setting you can just tune out or move on, but in a work setting... It's extremely tiring because you're trying to catch what's important and distinguish from the unnecessary fluff.

magicalhippo2• 2 years ago

My sister is fairly extrovert, she gets energy from being with others. I'm a fairly typical introvert.

Before kids she used to have parties with her ever-increasing circle of friends. She'd invite me, and I'd often say yes but as the day approached I had to force myself to go.

One day, after one of her parties, she told me "everyone really likes it when you come, you're so good at making people feel seen".

I hadn't thought about it before, but realized that I do tend to chat with most people. And I do ask perhaps non-typical "party questions", as I love to learn about new stuff so I like to find out what others are interested in and talk about that.

Almost always I enjoy these events. However after such an even I'm so exhausted, and need a day or three on my own. If I don't get that then things don't go well.

brookst• 2 years ago

The best description I’ve heard is “introverts are recharged by being away from people, extroverts are recharged by being around people”. As an ambivert, I experience both… sometimes I really need to be in big groups and talking to lots of people, sometimes that exhausts me I need time away.

mattm• 2 years ago

This is me. I've noticed that I generally shut down after about 90 minutes of being at a social event.

interludead7• 2 years ago

It seems to me that everyone has a limit

jillesvangurp• 2 years ago

It's a spectrum of multiple things here so I agree that this is too simplistic. You might even label some of these things as features, not bugs.

But the flip side is that the ability to mingle and talk to people is something that doesn't come equally naturally to everyone and some people feel uncertain of themselves when put in situations where they have to mingle with a lot of especially those type of people that are really good at that. Avoiding such situations is a natural response to such negative feelings. I've worked with an autistic colleague who explained to me the notion of these situations being mentally, emotionally, and physically draining. You'd think they'd be hermits! But the opposite is actually true. As it turns out this person had a rich online life that also spilled over into a personal life.

As it turns out, being autistic also means that these people are on the receiving end of a lot of care and training. And some of that stuff actually works. I'm not saying it's easy. But this was a hard working person that was one of the most coacheable people I worked with and in many ways a lot more senior and mature than other people I've worked with.

Socializing is a skill, that's actually something that you can work on and something that can be useful in professional situations. Or even in your personal life. Once you get better at it, you get to talk to nice people, meat new friends, etc. And once you build a relationship with such people you can meet them on your terms as well.

There's also the related trait that some people need to be talking to people all the time in order to feel comfortable. They become uncertain when having to spend time with themselves even. That's probably something that they could work on as well. A lot of these people might be equally unhappy as some lonely people are.

kubb2• 2 years ago

It’s quite treacherous to identify yourself with labels: introvert, extrovert, conscientious, conservative, liberal, empathetic, neurodivergent, etc.

The act of putting a name on some traits that you have can seem liberating: I finally know what I am, and why I’m different from others, and that’s fine.

On the flipside, once you commit to a label, you lock yourself inside it, and instead of describing, it begins shaping what you are.

It doesn’t help that other people often try very hard to pin us down and assign labels to us forcefully, without considering if we’re OK with that.

The trick is to describe your behavior and separate that from yourself. Instead of being an introvert you can just say that my behavior was introverted, and that was a function of my internal psychological state.

Also, be open to experimenting with what affects that state, and reflect on it. That will remind you that you’re not a constant, you’re a function :)

hgomersall• 2 years ago

Neurodivergence is a really useful concept in that it recognises that "typical" just means a certain cognitive profile. The problem I expect is that in certain fields (STEM?) it's actually more normal to be divergent from the mainstream. If you understand how your particular neural profile makes you understand and experience the world, you are in a good position to understand how it might be different to others.

In a sense, attaching a special label to a particular neurodivergent profile is as problematic as assigning special significance to the "neurotypical" profile.

rors2• 2 years ago

I was diagnosed with dyslexia in my 40s. It's helped me understand why I struggle with certain tasks. Overall having a label has been a net positive.

I'm hesitant to share my diagnosis with colleagues. I've been able to develop coping mechanisms and I feel like it doesn't impact my day-to-day. I don't want to cause disruption for those around me. I do have a friend with much more severe dyslexia and she does get the help she needs to be productive.

I wish we could discuss these labels at work without baggage. It's all about consideration. Forcing everyone around you to change their behaviour around you to make yourself feel more comfortable is not being considerate. On the flip side enforcing strict working policies that prevent people from participating in the workplace is also not considerate.

teddyh• 2 years ago

Regarding labels: <https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2015-05-23>

SecretDreams4• 2 years ago

Absolutely! The labels some may seek to feel a deeper sense of community and understanding end up becoming shackles.

People don't need to just be one thing. We are fluid. And can and should have opinions and stances that wane over time.

satisfice• 2 years ago

That’s like saying it’s treacherous to lock a door. After all, you might lose the key!

I label myself in many ways. These labels are heuristics that define me to myself as well as others. These labels simplify the management of my life in a way similar to choosing a particular type of computer or a particular email client does.

I am free to change my labels, but there is a cost to that. There is also a cost to avoiding labels.

I wouldn’t say it is a treacherous matter at all. It’s a matter of personal economy and finding a comfortable way to relate to the world.

I have sometimes used your heuristic of labeling behavior rather than identity. That can be useful, too. But however you try to do that, an implication hangs in the air: “You are obviously the kind of person who does things like that.”

mrweasel• 2 years ago

I think that one of the major issues is that people will use certain labels to help justifying behaving in a certain way, or avoid specific tasks and situations. E.g. a ton of people hate talking on the phone, for reasons that are beyond me, and they will justify this is being introvert or having some sort of social anxiety, while at the same time being outgoing and extroverted in pretty much every other situation.

As I grow old I've stopped trying to put labels on my behavior. They rarely fit and society expects that I act or believe in certain ways depending on how those labels are generally perceived.

lukan• 2 years ago

I hate talking on the phone, because of the missing body language and often bad lossy connections/bad microphones.

Video calls I also almost never enjoyed, but maybe also because of technical reasons.

polishdude20• 2 years ago

As I've grown older I realize I'm all of the labels at different times of the day, different days, with different people etc. The more I take this to heart the more I grow and allow myself to have new experiences that a self label would have stopped me from doing because I'm not "that" kind of person.

someothherguyy• 2 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labeling_theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_bias

ternnoburn7• 2 years ago

Or, labeling yourself helps identify communities and systems that enable you to develop and grow more efficiently.

I'm autistic, I discovered this partway through my adult life. Labelling it has done incredible things to build support infrastructure. I have more energy and less stress now.

I'm queer, I discovered this as a young adult. It's connected me with whole communities. And most importantly, it's helped me discover and embrace the concept of a found family.

I'm a leftist. (Not a liberal, I don't vote Democrat). This label has helped me find opportunities to engage in mutual aid I genuinely find more rewarding than any charity work I've done.

Every time I add a label, I discover wonderful communities who help me explore myself, help me figure out what it means to be that label, and whether it's one I want to keep or shed.

There's nothing wrong with building an identity. You have to have introspection and periodically evaluate it, but labels are fine.

kubb2• 2 years ago

Hmm, maybe you’re just a labeler and I’m noncommittal? Just kidding, I’m glad it works for you.

reedf1• 2 years ago

These labels are quite obviously overused. Like most social characteristics, there is a spectrum. I can, and have, gone without seeing another person for months - and I've barely noticed. Now, I go into work five times a week. I do think I come off as odd to people; but I don't mind, I'm not proud of it, but I'm not embarrassed by it either. I am what I am. Earlier in life I put great effort into being "normal" socially, but with great effort also came enormous stress.

I've not struggled with work or partners. There are lots of people who don't seem to mind the occasional oddity or silence in a group. Although, I do occasionally run into some self-righteous lot who try to "fix" me; but I find this condescending. There are lots of ways to be a person, and I am truly fulfilled with the way I am. Most friction this has ever caused is by someone wanting me to be some other way, usually theirs.

jasdi2• 2 years ago

Try framing it in terms of what you Need from people. Avoiding using "should" so much. It will help you become conscious of what your needs are. Confusing your needs with others needs is also a trap.

We can only talk in terms of our Needs and why those needs are important to us. Anything else sounds like passing judgement and the reaction will be negative.

BeetleB2• 2 years ago

Avoiding using "should" so much.

I have two phrases I use often:

"Should is not in my vocabulary"

"Should is a lazy word"

People use words like "should" and "must" to get around explaining their perspectives.

I remember early in my career, I made a request for a feature to an employee in another team. Their SW was allowing users to specify parameters that made the whole model unphysical, and it was a burden on us users to always double check that parameter "X" was not negative. The SW wouldn't fail. It would simply not give correct results (and they wouldn't be wildly wrong that you'll quickly realize it).

I requested that they simply not allow a negative value. We didn't always put one there - sometimes it was the output of another process, and I didn't want to continually check that our automation wasn't putting in unphysical values.

The response? "The engineer should be diligent in making sure the value is not negative".

Should is a lazy word. He didn't explain at all why he's rejecting the feature request. I would have preferred "Low priority - we simply don't have the time."

Start counting how often someone uses the word as a way to avoid explaining him/herself.

jasdi2• 2 years ago

I am going to borrow that "should is a lazy word" slogan. Thanks!

HPsquared5• 2 years ago

For me the "energy gain" / "energy drain" question depends MASSIVELY on who I happen to be spending time with. So much so that recently I'm doubting if I even am an introvert. With the right people it's all good.

ambicapter• 2 years ago

Yup, I've never bought into the intro/extrovert spectrum because it doesn't really seem to cover some pretty common cases.

jghn• 2 years ago

This is me as well. For me it's not "socializing = energy drain" or the opposite. It's more about situations. In most situations I find talking with people, being in crowds, etc to be draining. But plop me into what is a relatively small list of "right circumstances" and it's the exact opposite.

Jensson• 2 years ago

In most situations I find talking with people, being in crowds, etc to be draining

Then you are an introvert. They are talking about most situations, if there are some cliques you feel comfortable around then you are still an introvert.

Extroverts has a small set of situations where they get drained instead. It isn't like anyone loves all human contact, its just some have an issue with most contact and others like it most of the time.

happytoexplain• 2 years ago

I've always assumed people are largely the same, socially. I.e. we enjoy being with people we mesh with, and don't enjoy being with people we don't mesh with. The thing is, you can like people you don't mesh with. You might not have a single bad thing to say of a person, yet still have no interest in hanging out with them.

And then, surprise, being forced to do things you don't enjoy is draining. Especially when it involves long periods of politely choosing your words and facial expressions to pretend you're not bored/frustrated.

The only thing that makes an "introvert" is when the genre of person they mesh with happens to be more numerically rare. There is a ton of variety in humans. It doesn't mean anything significant that your "group" is small.

spzb• 2 years ago

That's a very long post to say "I don't understand extraversion/introversion"

noduerme2• 2 years ago

Like so many things, introversion can now be both medicalized as a disorder and celebrated as a lifestyle choice. This allows some people to pick whichever is psychologically soothing to them at the moment and use it to justify a lack of effort, as if socializing were not a skill that many people actually have to work on.

zb3• 2 years ago

How about "shutting up and leaving people alone" as a skill that many people should have to work on? Let's distribute the effort.

noduerme2• 2 years ago

Ah yeah, I forgot. Being outraged that other people have opinions that offend you is a good fallback if soothing methods 1 and 2 fail.

jmyeet• 2 years ago

Articles like this are (IMHO) ableist and come from an extremely neurotypical perspective. "Just practice social skills" to me is like teling depressed people "just go outside and touch grass".

There's not a single mention of ADHD or autism in here. My own understanding of this has evolved over the years.

The first stage is to understand introversion / extroversion as simply to not like / like socializing, people, large groups or whatever. This is a shallow and pretty inaccurate understanding, one many people such as myself chafe against. I consider myself an introvert but like certain social activities so these labels never seem to quite fit.

The next stage is the "social battery" understanding of introversion / extroversion. That is, social activities will either drain or charge your "social battery".

After this you start to ask questions like "why does X drain my social battery?" and "what does draining a social battery really mean?" and you start to realize you're still describing symptoms, not causes.

The key insight is that something drains your social battery because you're masking [1]. So-called extroverts don't need to mask. So-called introverts do.

Yes, you can get better at following social norms and develop coping strategies for large groups, socializing with strangers, etc but all you're really doing is getting better at masking. That can be useful because it can change how other people respond to you but it's a bit like telling a depressed person to "just smile".

[1] https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/behavio...

rors2• 2 years ago

I feel like a lot of these debates boil down dealing with discomfort. We seem to be creating a society where everyone feels they have the right to not feeling stressed and uncomfortable. The danger to never feeling challenged is that you don't grow. You get stuck in a rut and everyone passes you by.

Part of dealing with discomfort is learning what your limits are. No one should put themselves in a situation with you have a breakdown. I find that a small amount of stress in my life is good and results in growth. But a huge amount is overwhelming which leads to burnout.

jrs2352• 2 years ago

I agree. While some people are uncomfortable in social settings and/or talking alot, especially "small talk", other people are uncomfortable sitting in silence. BOTH types of people need to work on be more comfortable being uncomfortable. However, it's seen as rude to tell overs to just "be quiet for a bit and enjoy the silence" vs "you're socially awkward because you refuse to talk to me"...

My father in law seems unable to sit queitly in group settings. He performs too much small talk in my opinion. And it seems merely to fill the silence since they are often the same questions day in and day out. Either his memory is very bad, or he's not actually listening, just wanting to make noise. I've given up wasting my breath (re)answering the same questions. It seems he doesn't truly care about what others think, say, or feel... otherwise he might work on committing answers to memory. And even when folks start talking, he interrupts a lot... I truly hope it's not poor memory.

robocat2• 2 years ago

Maybe he's trying to "give" as per https://www.experimental-history.com/p/good-conversations-ha...

XorNot• 2 years ago

This is the sort of take that just sounds entitled, because the person giving it is doing so from a position of not having discomfort created for them by the actions of someone else.

Like let's put this in context: replace "being an introvert" for "your friend flies you out to the forest, and then happily announces we're going to be hiking 20 km back to town. You really need to challenge yourself!"

jeltz• 2 years ago

Your replacement only strengthens the parent's point to me. Sounds like a fun little challenge that I would love if one of my friends gave me. I wish I had friends like that.

fluoridation2• 2 years ago

We seem to be creating a society where everyone feels they have the right to not feeling stressed and uncomfortable.

Huh? What a strange thing to say. Yeah, sure, you can't have that right exactly, simply because life is too unpredictable and from time to time stressors will come up, but surely someone has the right to build for themselves the conditions that minimize their stress and discomfort. Not wanting to be purposefully stressed and discomforted by others seems perfectly reasonable.

The danger to never feeling challenged is that you don't grow. You get stuck in a rut and everyone passes you by.

Perhaps, but surely the choice of whether to live like that is the prerogative of each person.

purple-leafy• 2 years ago

But who are you (or anyone for that matter) to decide that everyone should "grow" in areas X,Y,Z? I hate blanket statements like "We seem to be creating a society where everyone feels they have the right to not feeling stressed and uncomfortable".

For example - I hate the modern office workplace 9-5 in-office bullshit. I know exactly what I want. I don't need to "grow" any more in this area. Can I do 9-5 in an office? Yes - but I fucking hate it and no amount of growth will change that. Why should I be forced to come into an office, for a job I do better at home, because Bob from management needs to be around people? I say to this - fuck Bob, Bob can go shit bricks.

Another example - I am very comfortable with living without any social media, or a smart phone, or a Tv, all at the same time. But, you don't see me going around forcing people into this way of being, and then when they find it horrible/stressful/uncomfortable saying "well maybe we are creating a society where everyone feels they have the right to not feeling stressed and uncomfortable, fuck your tv"

Instead - We are creating a society of non-thinkers, conformists, average-results-for-all, and dumb opinions like "well, I can deal with it - why can't you? Are you lazy/introverted/mentally-handicapped?"

I think challenging yourself is great, FOR SHIT THAT MATTERS. And only you can dictate what matters, fuck Bob or anyone else that tries to impose "what matters" on you.

The problem is, your statement sounds generalised to "challenge yourself in everything". I don't care for that, I care about challenging myself in a select few things of my choosing, I am my own man. I forge my destiny, I plow my path where I want to, not where society or Bob tells me.

------

And you know what the result will be for Bob and I?

Bob will not really grow as a person at all, his life will be all soft smoothed edges, not unique in any sense. Bob will be the same as everyone else with slight variations here and there, Bob will be boring, and at the end of Bobs life, on his deathbed he will say, "well, at least I didn't rock the boat!"

I, and others like me, will grow, in a unique sense, jagged edges, sharp incline and deep depressions. I will say when I die "I wish I leant even more into rocking the boat, capsizing it, just to see what would happen"

mcdeltat• 2 years ago

A convenient take, when you consider that (generally) extraverts will be less outside their comfort zone day to day than introverts, because our modern Western society values extraversion more. The article is giving vibes of "extraverts are great and inherently good people, introverts are bad and need to grow up!"

billy99k3• 2 years ago

"extraverts will be less outside their comfort zone day to day than introverts"

This is a grass is always greener take, and definitely not true.

"because our modern Western society values extraversion more"

Everybody throughout humanity has valued extraversion more. This isn't something new. Humans are social creatures and people that are more social will be more successful at life. This will never change.

"introverts are bad and need to grow up"

This isn't necessarily the case. However, introverts need to figure out how to navigate the world, even when they aren't interested in socializing.

I've worked with lots of introverts (I am a mix of both introvert and extrovert) in tech and it usually goes along with passive aggressive behavior (because introverts usually don't like confrontation) and other behavior that makes collaboration (which is needed in almost all business settings) a nightmare.

niam3• 2 years ago

I mostly don't see the point in these terms anymore. They were presumably created to categorize people but suck at it because nobody agrees where the boundaries of the category are, and the resolution on the term is so low for how many domains of personality it touches.

blueflow13• 2 years ago

This is a general problem with language.

cdrini7• 2 years ago

Yes, but some terms have more trouble with it than others, and if the term cannot converge on a clear, repeatable definition over time, questioning the utility of the term seems reasonable.

Eg the terms "red" and "green" have largely converged on specific, useful meanings over time. Even more abstract words like "freedom" have mostly clear definitions (although definitely also have variance!). Introvert/extrovert I would argue have a LOT of variance in meaning when people use the words. And if people using the words can't agree on what they're actually communicating about, that might suggest that other or new concepts/words might be more useful.

niam3• 2 years ago

Slowness is a general problem with cars.

j_crick• 2 years ago

They use introversion as an excuse to not grow.

As if people who the author accuses of this sin have the same definition of, or feel the same about "growing" as the author...

josefritzishere• 2 years ago

Perhaps it has been said but can we agree that it's ok to be introverted?

bravetraveler3• 2 years ago

Conversely, being too open/productive may also lead to burn out. The trap of participation

nuancebydefault3• 2 years ago

To introverts I would say: just now and then try to get out of your comfort zone. Most of the time, it will feel liberating and next time it becomes much easier.

Step 1. Regularly talk to strangers. Most easily it can be done at public transport or at a shop. Start with places where you are waiting for a short time. Just ask a silly question or say something about the weather.

Step 2 speak up in small groups. Just say something funny in between. Or ask a really curious question about what someone is saying.

Step 3 take the lead in organizing a Teams call that anyways need scheduling. Be the MC or host. Just state what the meeting is about, what is to be accomplished and listen and note some things for in the summary.

Step 4 do a talk in front of an audience. That will need some prep and some rehearsal, this one is quite difficult for myself as well.

Everyting worth the effort, takes effort.

bluefirebrand• 2 years ago

All of your advice is for shy people, not introverts

Being an introvert is not the same as being shy, and it is long past time that people stop conflating the two concepts

You cannot "fix" being an introvert by practicing being social

nothrabannosir• 2 years ago

could you humor me and exPlain why you think this? I’m neither shy nor introverted and I have only a casual understanding of either. If I take their comment literally, I guess the only part I would see being different is “it will feel liberating.” But aside from that I do support the advice of people going out of their comfort zone, even if they hate it.

I read GPs advice as “go to the social gym.” For some people the gym ends up feeling good, others will hate it no matter what, but the advice is sound regardless.

What do you think though?

edgarvaldes• 2 years ago

I am an introvert. I can talk to strangers, but prefer not to. I speak in small groups of friends or collegues, I am the lead in lots of calls, I even do training to big audiences. When in the moment, I can do it without hesitation, but in the end its always draining.

NikolaNovak3• 2 years ago

Good advice but we need to change its scope: All of that works if your problem is shyness or being self conscious. And indeed there's a strong Venn diagram between shyness, quietness, self consciousness, awkwardness, and introvertness. But it's not the same.

I'm inherently all of those things. After 20 years in consulting though, including dedicated training and experience, nobody believes me anymore - I've built strong social skills and come off cheerfully comfortable at work and random social situations. I've been formally mentoring people emotional intelligence and soft skills for at least 6-8 years.

But they are exhausting, even those that have become second nature / automatic. And that issue is not becoming lesser with age or skills or experience. And the more people in a group, the more exponentially exhausting every experience is :-/

bdangubic3• 2 years ago

what you do - even if ALL the love for it is there in you - sounds absolutely exhausting to me (especially after as many years as you have been doing it) and I am about as extrovert as it gets, much like you are described your sister in the other comment.

is it plausible that your feels are not as closely related to you being introvert and just nature of the career itself?

nuancebydefault3• 2 years ago

Today I learned, being skilled at something does not mean it has to become less exhausting. Could it be that your acquired social skills somehow go against your 'nature'? I wonder if there is social research on this subject.

iio7• 2 years ago

You clearly don't know what it means to be introvert. It's not a choice, it's almost like a phobia.

MoreMoore4• 2 years ago

As an introvert, what does being an introvert have to do with phobias? If you have a phobia for being around other people, this is not being introverted.

MoreMoore4• 2 years ago

As an introvert, I have no idea what you're talking about.

As an introvert, talking to strangers is in my comfort zone. Being an introvert has nothing to do with whether I'm able to talk to strangers.

As an introvert, speaking up in small groups isn't a problem. I do it all the time when I feel like it or when I feel it's necessary. Again, what does being an introvert have to do with this?

As an introvert, I regularly find myself leasing things because other people don't want to step up. This has nothing to do with introversion/extraversion.

As an introvert, I do talks in front of an audience. Not a problem.

Learning all this was valuable, but none of it solved my introversion. Because it's not something that can or needs to be fixed.

What it did fix was my shyness, lack of confidence and insecurity around other people. But I'm still introverted because it still requires me to exert a lot of energy, which can only be regained if I'm alone.

nuancebydefault3• 2 years ago

After reading all that, I think I'm an introvert as well. Though people tend to label me extrovert.

Even though getting downvotes, there's a lot to learn on HN, even about myself!

whatevs2025• 2 years ago

As an introvert I do these things - actually search for opportunities to do a talk or to do public presentation works. This works (and you can find me on YouTube in these situations) but it doesn’t get easier with time. It actually feels like with time it gets harder to find the energy to do this again.

kstrauser5• 2 years ago

I regularly say yes to work dinners and such that I don’t personally want to attend. That sort of thing is far outside my comfort zone, and that’s exactly why I do it.

It’s good exercise to pretend to be outgoing and chatty for an evening. Like any other skill, you get better at it with practice! And the author here is so right: almost everyone else at these things besides the salespeople are probably also introverts. I can promise you that you won’t be the only one there. I never am.

pizza234• 2 years ago

As a person who was very introvert at social gatherings, and the polar opposite now, I'm now convinced that being extrovert is not a skill or an "area" (outside the comfort zone), but rather a state of mind.

It's certainly an art and a science to be a good conversationalist, but being in that certain state of mind is "a lot %" of what's needed, and it actually takes no energy or comfort - although as other state, natural introverts enjoy this state for a certain amount of time. It can also take a lot to "get there", though.

Workaccount2• 2 years ago

The core problem is that introvert/extrovert has little or no bearings on someone's social ability.

Introvert/extrovert is the method that people use to recharge their energy. It has nothing to do with social ability despite the terms getting hijacked for that.

Signed, an extremely introverted person who talks and interacts a lot in social situations.

buran77• 2 years ago

but being in that certain state of mind is "a lot %" of what's needed, and it actually takes no energy or comfort

Your mileage may vary but it certainly takes energy to maintain a state of mind which doesn't come naturally to you. This is bound to affect your comfort eventually. Since there are degrees of intro/extroversion, it may be easier for some people to will themselves across that divide.

It's like floating on water. Some do it naturally, effortlessly, they even rest and relax while doing it. Others have to flail around under the surface to do it, putting in effort and consuming energy.

boogieknite3• 2 years ago

i treat it like exercise or eating salad. i do it because i know its good for me. also noticed that it seems like a lot of people there have the same idea.

just like exercise, i dont push it too far. ill take a break. ill excuse myself and say, "i need to cool off" then go outside for a minute. most people seem to get it.

maybe the nature of the people i hang out with, but the salespeople type stand out sore-thumb-style and their compliments and shallow conversation often come across as awkward compared to the genuine interest in listening and sharing what we have learned in work or personal life.

zeroonetwothree5• 2 years ago

Ever since I stopped doing this I’ve been much happier. Now that I’m old I don’t feel pressure to conform to social norms, I just do whatever I want. If that means I don’t see anyone else for weeks who cares. In my youth I felt so much pressure to be social and it’s just not what I want to be doing.

onemoresoop• 2 years ago

Pressure to be social is like pressure to stay fit. If you don’t put any effort it atrophies.

kstrauser5• 2 years ago

FWIW, I feel no pressure at all to do this. I want to get better at it purely because I want to get better at it. One practical benefit is that non-work social settings get easier, too. When I’m around a bunch of my kids’ friends’ parents, who are perfectly nice people who probably have a lot in common with me and I’ll probably enjoy being around, it’s nice to have some practice making conversation with a roomful of strangers.

I’m not doing this for work. I do it for me.

fader• 2 years ago

You might be surprised at how many salespeople are also introverts. Through years of being an (introverted) sales engineer, I've learned that outgoing socialization can be tough even for salespeople. Some of the most successful sales people I've worked with need to go quietly recharge for a day after a ton of meetings, just like I do. The biggest differentiator there is that the ones who can't manage it with a smile don't last long.

Relationship building in sales, like all skills, can be learned, even if it's draining.

ethbr13• 2 years ago

Like any other skill, you get better at it with practice!

Johnny Carson was an introvert. [0]

If he could be a professional-calibre conversationalist, then I refuse to believe most introverted people can't at least reach the passable cocktail party level.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Carson#Personal_life

compiler-guy2• 2 years ago

No one is claiming that it can’t be done. Just that introverts don’t like to do it and generally don’t find it worth it.

andyjohnson03• 2 years ago

Introversion is not the same as shyness.

ternnoburn7• 2 years ago

It sounds like you want to attend them. You've clearly laid out the reasons why you find them valuable to you. That's something you "personally want to attend."

skizm• 2 years ago

New jobs I accept all social invites for the first year to give off the impression that I’m friendly and outgoing and you should totally give me the benefit of the doubt when you’re unconsciously evaluating me as a teammate! Then I start weening myself off social outings, and by end of year two I’ve always got something coming up. Darn! Wish I could make it!

I have to keep my worksona turned on 40+ hours per week already, please no more…

kstrauser5• 2 years ago

That's just smart career management, is what that is.

jancsika• 2 years ago

While the reality is, it takes effort to communicate and drains energy for everyone.

This is a low effort take that depends on the ambiguity of language to sound true.

"Drain" for the author apparently means literally using up a finite amount of human energy, concentration, and willpower. That's a truism.

"Drain" for an introvert can mean anything from starting a muscle tension clock that will eventually cause a headache to a straight-up panic attack that could take hours/days to recover from.

It's probably even worse for young people who are introverts and haven't been taught how to say no or set boundaries. (I remember explaining to some college-age people that saying no is a skill, and they looked at me like I had just revealed to them that, with enough practice, humans can actually fly.)

xvector3• 2 years ago

"Drain" for an introvert can mean anything from starting a muscle tension clock that will eventually cause a headache to a straight-up panic attack that could take hours/days to recover from.

Unless you are being hyperbolic with your usage of the word "panic attack", having one during social events is not "being an introvert," it's a medical condition.

I am an introvert and have also had unrelated panic attacks. Panic attacks effectively paralyze you, you feel a deep and uncontrollable sense of doom, often accompanied by palpitations. Sometimes you feel like you can't breathe.

If caused by social interaction, that's not a normal thing to experience, even for introverts. That is in the territory of actual medical issues: panic disorder, social anxiety disorder, etc.

sabellito2• 2 years ago

Absolutely bizarre that you're being downvoted. Having panic attacks is not a normal reaction to any normal human situation, gp absolutely should look for medical and psychological help.

robocat2• 2 years ago

haven't been taught how to say no or set boundaries

For more than a few of my friends, assertiveness and confrontation are incredibly unnatural and stressful for them. For some people saying no and setting boundaries isn't easy for them to learn: I'm not sure I've ever seen it taught. One socially skilled friend got a swor serious panic attack from having to try and be assertive.

You are implicitly accepting people can be introverted, but imply that people can just learn to say no.

xvector3• 2 years ago

Ram learns about Shyam’s promotion and feels a bit disappointed. He goes back home and says to himself “I am not an extrovert”, consoles himself and moves on with life.

I have seen this play out time and time again at nearly every company I've worked at and even every team I've TL'd.

I used to be a "proud introvert" myself. The "proud introverts" often feel wronged in these situations, struggling to understand that communication is just as valid and critical of a skill as writing code.

Accepting that I didn't need to make "being an introvert" my identity, and learning how to communicate, skyrocketed my career.

cvoss• 2 years ago

“Hey man, what’s up? Why don’t you approach and talk to a few here? They are friendly, you know. You like Open Source, so maybe talk to that guy (pointing to a senior of mine) and ask him how he got started.”

This is completely wrong-headed on the part of the host of this gathering. The correct move is "Hey, man, it looks like you don't have a lot of connections in this room. Let me introduce you to a friend of mine... [Friend], this is Aditya. [Say something interesting about Aditya to justify Friend's attention.] You two have [X] in common. Aditya, I have known Friend for [Y] years. Ask him about [Z]. etc." The host mediates the introduction for a respectful amount of time, and then walks away.

That is the function and, truthfully, the responsibility, of a host at a gathering where not everybody knows everybody.

Whereas, some people would find it impertinent for a stranger to barge in on a conversation and introduce themselves as if they were important enough to deserve attention. Maybe they are, but they may be supposed to let somebody else do that for them. And likewise, many people feel slimy going around putting on an air of self-importance. It is hardly fair to characterize this kind of sensibility as "pride" or a feeling of "disgust" toward other guests.

Read some Jane Austen for more.

BeetleB2• 2 years ago

Fully agree. I read that intro section and closed the page. I didn't want advice from someone who could be so poor at this, and not even realize it. Instead of introspecting about his own contribution to the problematic interaction, he went ahead and made it the other guy's fault.

fluoridation2• 2 years ago

Honestly, I'm trying to put myself in Aditya's shoes, and I can't help but feel instant rejection at both the OP's and your approach. If I'm sitting by myself at a gathering it's probably because I'm overwhelmed by all the strangers in the room and can't (or don't feel like) figure out how to start a conversation with someone. The last thing I want in such a scenario is for someone to come and thrust me into a conversation with someone else. I can't see either myself or the other poor sap you involve in this enjoying the interaction. Now, if you want to come talk to me, by yourself, so I can get into a social mood, that's a different story.

some_furry• 2 years ago

As an introvert, I'd probably appreciate more of:

"Psst, there's a quiet room with a coffee maker if you're feeling exhausted or overwhelmed. Want me to show you the way?" and then not another word.

If I'm overwhelmed at a social event, I need at least half an hour of quiet time. Putting me on the spot at all just makes things worse.

(And if I'm not overwhelmed, I know how to play the part for at most 3 hours in a day, so you probably won't notice.)

englishspot• 2 years ago

for me I've realized my problem isn't introversion/extroversion, my problem is just that I have trouble thinking on the fly. or even just speaking off-the-cuff.

jexe• 2 years ago

These labels do as much to hurt ourselves as they do to try and help.

The truth (for me at least) is that whether I'm comfortable and energized by others depends on my level of comfort with the people, my familiarity with the situation, my mood, the general vibe, etc.

"Being" one or the other feels like a limiting belief that we can hide behind if we're not aware of what it's doing to us.

BhavdeepSethi• 2 years ago

I often think about this post when people call themselves introverts. I wonder how much is this a function of who you are (genes, etc.) vs the environment a person was exposed to in formative years. I've never seen a study about this. (I've read Quiet, which is a book that gets quoted by introverts a lot)

"A lot of you guys are not true introverts you were just expressive children who didn’t get the attention you wanted or deserved so you got comfortable at keeping everything inside and entertaining your own thoughts"

Source: https://x.com/SchrodingrsBrat/status/1834583804016484637

lolinder9• 2 years ago

For the record, we introverts get very tired of having to justify ourselves to extroverts who constantly question our existence. It seems to happen far more often with introversion than with other differences.

People don't tell those who prefer cold to heat that it's just because of the way they were raised and that they should really build up their heat tolerance. People don't tell those who dislike cilantro that it's an acquired taste and they should really put in the effort. People who try to tell LGBT folks that they should just try to be straight get straight-up pilloried. But for some reason people feel that it's okay to tell introverts that they probably are just imagining that they have real differences from the average person that can't just be fixed by trying harder.

ozim• 2 years ago

Well, now, don't you tell me to smile You stick around, I'll make it worth your while.

Sorry but fast thinking is needed for a lot of socialization. No one sticks around if you are not interesting and people judge harshly everyone who is taking time to build up response.

I can throw in some jokes and in general be funny but with people that I am familiar with .

Not so much meeting strangers.

casey2• 2 years ago

If someone believes that they have nothing to gain from interacting with a group then who are you to tell them that they should do it anyways for growth? You could make the same exact argument about any form of interaction. Don't want to interact with the node.js ecosystem? Why not? You will learn so much and grow as a person. Will I? Really? How about a book on group theory? Sure I will probably learn something, will it be useful? maybe, more so than the class I already took on it in college? who knows, certainly not you more than me.

Also the idea that people just want to sit in front of the TV and not learn anything new or grow is completely insane and usually only comes up when they aren't learning the thing that you want them to know. If it appears like that it's only because they are stuck in some system, much like the one you propose, that wants them to learn unactionable knowledge

What is the Appearance of Interaction? Just because it's very obvious that you are interacting with some group doesn't mean that you interact with that group more than some other group that you don't know about. If you go to a new website your browser runs some interesting scripts, much like a TV show this attracts your attention, eventually you decide JavaScript is important and you should learn about it. You have entered the JavaScript fandom, it doesn't matter to you if gravity acts on you constantly or a krebs cycle complete in your body (~10)^~21 times a second, JS is clearly more useful to know about, right?

molochai2• 2 years ago

At the risk of sounding like a jerk, the Ram/Shyam story -- it sounds like one of those people is good at getting their job done and works well to solve hard problems independently... and the other person over-relies on other people via collaboration, and compensates by making excessive "high visibility" noise. One of those people is solving critical bugs, the other one is... doing demos for other teams. It's sort of telling Shyam prefers work broken down into small, digestible, predictable chunks.

It's a shame management (in my experience) seems to consistently value Shyam's style. Too much of either working style leads to problems. Excess in the first leads to overlap, duplicated work, and incogruent pieces that don't fit together. Excess in the second leads to a lot of people talking quite a bit about work while nothing tangible or truly difficult gets done.

sega_sai2• 2 years ago

I don't find this convincing as an introvert. Dealing with shyness or being an introvert required me reading a few books and techniques how to deal with it. In the end that helped, but it was not as easy as just 'try harder' and took a few years. I also wish I realised earlier that it was an issue that needed addressing, but no one told me that. Overall the article seems to trivialize the issue in my opinion.

azan_• 2 years ago

Can you recommend some books you’ve read? Struggling with the same thing

molochai2• 2 years ago

Not who you asked but:

- Quiet - Susan Cain (introversion in general)

- Cues and Captivate - Vanessa Van Edwards (business-focused social skills)

- The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense at Work - Suzette Haden Elgin (I actually didn't enjoy this one too much, didn't finish it, but I think that was a personal mismatch)

- How to Win Friends and Influence People - Dave Carnegie (a lot of the techniques are very, very dated and transparent when used today... but it's pretty foundational and worth a glance anyway)

sega_sai2• 2 years ago

Overcoming social anxiety and shyness by Butler was one of the books that was pretty good.

65• 2 years ago

Dear God please scale down the size of this website. Everything is too big!

paulmooreparks• 2 years ago

everyone should be an extrovert at work

No, we shouldn't. I'm not an extravert, and I don't want to be an extravert. I don't ask extraverts to be introverted, so don't ask me to be what I am not. Being introverted doesn't mean that I'm anti-social or incapable of cooperating with others.

joe_the_user• 2 years ago

Absolutely agreed. No one should be obligated to be anything at work. At work, you should accomplish things. You should be able to work with others but you shouldn't have any obligation for emotional or whatever other response.

more_corn2• 2 years ago

I’m not an extrovert, but behaving in an extroverted way is hugely rewarding. Talking to strangers, befriending fellow travelers, commiserating with colleagues.

If you’re a manager it’s literally part of the job. Asking how people are doing isn’t useless small talk, your job is to keep an eye out for things that might be hindering the effectiveness of your team so that you can catch problems early and respond to them. “How are you doing” suddenly becomes a serious and interesting question with real ramifications.

Theres a common misconception that extroverts don’t like people or are not interested in people. We do and we are. Just in a different way. Every introvert has had a best friend, maybe a lover, maybe someone they were just comfortable talking with. The problem is that most social interactions feel shallow, banal and pointless. But I think that’s only before you look at it deeply.

Buried deep in each stranger is the potential to be a best friend, a lover, a future colleague, a business partner, or just someone who teaches you something important about an interesting thing you’ve never thought to study.

Your task as the introverted traveler is leave the door open enough to connect with each person enough to get at the deeply interesting stuff inside. Who are you and what makes you tick? What lights you up? What interest or knowledge do you have that I might find compelling?

I assure you everyone has something even if they don’t know it. Approaching each social interaction with the faith that something important can be discovered is the introverts path to benefits of extroverted behavior.

You’re welcome. You can thank me later when you meet me in person, but only if you’re able to figure out through conversation that I was the one who provided you this gem.

bawolff9• 2 years ago

On this one particular night, a lot of people were bonding, and it was amazing. But then I saw this young boy sitting in the corner by himself. Let’s call him Aditya. It was a bit dark and Aditya was trying to just get by, unnoticed. He looked overwhelmed and disinterested. I went up to him with a big smile and a lot of kindness, and said - “Hey man, what’s up? Why don’t you approach and talk to a few here? They are friendly, you know. You like Open Source, so maybe talk to that guy (pointing to a senior of mine) and ask him how he got started.”.
His response that day still echoes in my ear. It felt like a voice coming out of a closed heart. And my words had fallen flat on him. He said, with a smirk, “I am not an extrovert”.

Maybe i am reading into this, but the author comes across as an asshole to me. You can see the condescension dripping from the prose.

To me it sounds like the author was being a busy-body and came off as rude. Introverted kid wanted him to mind his own business.

mattlondon• 2 years ago

It always bothers me how people frame it as a binary either-or thing.

I think the reality is way more subtle, with a wide spectrum that is highly context dependent.

I don't think labelling someone/one self as one or the other or trying to "be an extrovert at work" or whatever is productive or healthy.

thayne7• 2 years ago

This feels like the author has made the assumption that since they are an introvert, all introverts are like them.

However, I think that introversion, like most things is a continuum, not binary. Take the characterization of introverts in the article: "They would rather sit in front of the computer than go out during the yearly college social fest." For me it isn't just a matter of "I'd rather be in front of a computer", going to a big social encounter is extremely stressful. And the idea of approaching and talking to someone I don't know fills me with terror.

That isn't to say that I never go to such activities, or try to go out of my comfort zone, but it is much, much more difficult for me than even other introverts.

If I were Aditya in the introductory story, telling me I should go talk to people would not be helpful, ot would just reinforce my insecurities and anxiety. What would be helpful is if someone, especially someone I at least knew a little came and said something like, "Hey, I hear you like Open Source, can I introduce you to <person>, I think they would like talking with you?" And then introduce me, and initiate the conversation.

And there are also difference in how introversion manifests. One person might do fine in social interactions, but is terrified public speaking or giving presentations, and someone else is the other way around.

mp052• 2 years ago

And the idea of approaching and talking to someone I don't know fills me with terror.

I think this is social anxiety and not to be confused with introversion.

thayne7• 2 years ago

Sure, they aren't quite the same thing, but they are related.

And I used an extreme example. In general, among introverts, some have a high tolerance for social interactions, some have a very low tolerance and there are people everywhere in between. Or to use the terminology of introverts having to expend energy to interact with other people, you could say different people have different fuel efficiencies.

zeroonetwothree5• 2 years ago

There's clearly a high correlation though.

smsm42• 2 years ago

That's one thing I noticed - the author doesn't say "would you like me to introduce you to X who you could talk to about Y?". He says "hey, go talk to that guy" and thinks he's being kind. He's not. What Aditya could be hearing is "you're some kind of loser, there are so many obvious things any normal person would do, and you are doing none of them. Let me list some ways in which you are a loser. For example, you could be talking to that cool guy and you don't. And now that I told you that I'm going to leave you to soak in your loser-ness while I am going to have fun with my cool friends!". It's probably not what the author meant at all. But that's what it easily could become. Aditya clearly has some trouble connecting to strange people, for one reason or another. A kind thing would be to try to help him, not to label him "closed heart" and dismiss him. Of course, nobody owes him that, but if you proudly declare it's your job... If you think telling an introvert not having a good time "why don't you have a good time! go and have good time right now!" is going to work, you clearly don't understand how introverts work.

robertlagrant• 2 years ago

This doesn't seem to relate much to the parent comment. The idea of someone introducing you to someone else at a party is them helping.

asdf69692• 2 years ago

This is mental illness not introversion. You don’t get anxious about other things you don’t like. You might not enjoy playing board games or Russian literature. Does it stress you out and make you anxious? Probably not. You just don’t care.

vector_spaces• 2 years ago

I'll suggest to you that the boundaries between introversion vs mental illness are probably quite blurred in some cases.

And although it may seem ridiculous to you, there are people for whom board games and Russian literature are pretty stressful and anxiety inducing in the same way that public speaking is stressful for many people.

If you had also included math in your list of frequently disliked subjects, then it might be less ridiculous an idea

delusional• 2 years ago

Please do not impose the "mental illness" label on people over the internet. One of the foundational requirements for any diagnosis of a mental illness is a negative effect on the person's capacity to function, and you just can't evaluate that over the internet.

Its quite harmful to stigmatize peoples stories. Let people be different.

thayne7• 2 years ago

And how do you know that the Aditya from the story didn't have a mental illness?

brnt• 2 years ago

What I miss in these discussions is the "now what". OK, we are all born with different innate preferences, skills, interests, weaknesses.

We live in a world. In that world certain interfaces are virtually required to be implemented. Sure, some advocacy for the different is OK too, but meanwhile self-isolation is just not going to work for most. Also, we all are already learning tons that are based on our instance of the world, nobody would solve or create businesses if it were for pure intrinsic motivation.

How are we improving our weak spots? I sure as hell am going to put energy there, and not waste it all on moping, even further specialisation. Well, maybe those too, but after I spent some effort in addressing point I can identify are weaknesses for my functioning in the world I find myself in.

m463• 2 years ago

I've heard one way a parent can help a shy child is to have them look after much younger children. Even very shy children seem to be able to manage talking to less-experienced, less-intimidating, pipsqueaks.

Wonder if there's a way to take that tack.

TickleSteve• 2 years ago

shyness != introversion

kidneystereotyp2• 2 years ago

lol pipsqueaks funny word

HPsquared5• 2 years ago

Pets are another big one.

interludead7• 2 years ago

It seemed to me that social interactions cause anxiety not only because you are an introvert but also due to the situation in which the interaction takes place. It seems to me that even if you are an "extrovert," you would feel anxiety when speaking at some seminar. It all depends on the context. But I might be wrong.

mvdtnz• 2 years ago

the idea of approaching and talking to someone I don't know fills me with terror.

It seems you have completely missed the point of the article: this is something you need to work on. If you don't, it will negatively impact you for your entire life.

thayne7• 2 years ago

My point is that if someone isn't as good at socializing as you are, instead of assuming that they are too lazy or "closed heart" to do better, acknowledge that it might be orders of magnitude more difficult for them than for you, and try to be understanding and helpful instead of dismissive.

atoav2• 2 years ago

I am an introvert and I can (and if necessary will) take over the microphone and address a room with 500 people in it. I might even enjoy that a little.

What makes me an introvert isn't that I am shy (I am not), what makes me an introvert is that I find all interaction with other people except a select few exhausting and draining. Don't get me wrong: That doesn't mean I am weird or bad at talking with people — in fact I am quite the opposite. It just means it costs me a lot of energy, while extroverts appear to lose energy when they are alone, I lose it when there is a certain kind of social interaction needed around me.

So people don't really see me as an introvert, because to them it is all about being shy and a little bit awkward. But that isn't what makes you an introvert, the energy part is.

1cool• 2 years ago

The presumption that introversion equals shyness still pervades even with what seems to be a cultural awareness amongst people on where they stand on that trait.

I'm very much like you in that many people mistake me for an extrovert because of the opportune occasions where I display "extroverted" traits in social settings. However it's more of a decision (mostly based on energy) than a default mode I fall back on.

steve1977• 2 years ago

I'm very much like this. I often compare social gatherings to activities like hiking. I might go for a hike from time to time and I might even enjoy it, but it will be exhausting and I will need some time after the hike to recharge.

5423542342352• 2 years ago

I agree and most psychology articles I have read describes it as such, that introversion or extroversion is about what recharges you and what drains you. What the OP article and most of the comments are talking about is social anxiety. I am an introvert, but I love get togethers and social situations. I just know I have a very finite emotional budget for those things and plan accordingly.

caeril• 2 years ago

take over the microphone and address a room with 500 people in it

I'm not sure this has anything to do with introversion.

Speech and debate clubs are filled with introverts. The notion of "stage fright" is completely orthogonal to introversion. You're speaking at people, with YOUR ideas, YOUR words - it's not a dialogue, with shared feelings, mood, etc, which is where introverts generally get drained.

austin-cheney• 2 years ago

However, I think that introversion, like most things is a continuum, not binary.

It’s a measurable scale from 1 to 100 in the big 5 model.

scotty792• 2 years ago

I'm routinely getting >95 in tests.

asdasdsddd• 2 years ago

The whole concept of introversion is a regression in social skills which is only slightly genetic and largely environmental. The idea of burning social energy is mostly a skill issue, although it is worsened with new/weird people.

tina_pen• 2 years ago

I’m not sure if I’m an extrovert or introvert, but I struggle with two things: small talk and being stuck in problem-solving mode.

Small talk: I often don’t know what to say and end up saying the wrong thing. Prolonged small talk makes my mind feel numb, like I need to retreat and recharge. So I try to avoid it if possible.

Problem-solving mode: When I’m focused on solving a problem, I’m physically present but mentally somewhere else. I try to engage in the conversation but can’t fully tune in, leading to goof ups which I regret later.

wcfrobert• 2 years ago

I highly recommend the book "Quiet" by Susan Cain. It explores the trait of introversion in depth and makes many thought-provoking commentary about our cultural preference for extroversion. The poster can probably be described as an "ambivert".

At the end of the day, none of these terminologies matter... These labels are just "models" of how we see ourselves. I agree with the sentiment that premature self-labeling is dangerous. Because they tend to become self-fulfilling prophecies. (e.g. I'm not good at math, I'm a nerd, I'm good at hockey, I'm INTJ, I'm an introvert).

kstenerud• 2 years ago

This is why I hate the words "introvert" and "extrovert": everyone can just assume that their personal makeup is "introvert" or "extrovert".

This of course makes for easy straw man arguments to the effect of "Everyone is the same at the core" and "Extroversion is a skill" and "Everyone feels drained". If you honestly think that, then these words are meaningless.

I had a similar conversation with a friend the other night about smiling, where she said "you just pull up things in your mind that naturally make you happy, and then that makes you smile naturally." Once again, not for some of us. For some of us, our natural state LOOKS very unnatural to others. Every interaction requires putting on a facade, because for some reason our natural pose, facial movements, body movements, how we talk, how we smile - ALL of it must be done in a very artificial way in order to "look natural".

And THAT is why it's so draining, akin to squatting on one leg. Sure, you can train it so that you could even do it for 20 minutes instead of 4, but evenually it's just too much and you need to retreat to a safe place where you can relax your stiff muscles and behave normally for awhile (except for the small group of friends with whom you can just be normal).

And if squatting on one leg were the only way you could emotionally reach those you talk to, you'd do it sparingly - only where it has the most impact.

ternnoburn7• 2 years ago

This author is deeply deeply misunderstanding other humans. They are applying a "it worked for me, therefore it works for all" mentality. And worse yet, coming to the wrong conclusions.

You do not need to be an extrovert at work to get ahead. Full stop.

Does it help in some ways? Sure, but you can be equally successful as an introvert as long as you are able to communicate clearly when needs demand it. Plenty of excellent engineers speak to almost no one, but write excellently.

I've been in this industry for decades, I'm extremely introverted (autistic), I make 750k+ a year and run large projects. I never once "went extroverted at work".

interludead7• 2 years ago

Success is about the skills, contributions and value you bring to the table, not about how much you talk

sweezyjeezy5• 2 years ago

This sounds naive. Most companies have some degree of 'politics' which is essentially people working in their own interests over the company's. This is somewhat unrelated to skills and value.

Also particularly in large organisations, work is not a perfect information game - there is no easy way to assign a fair / public a "value" to people to let you compare two employees. Most people will need to sell themselves or have other people sell them to get noticed, and some degree of social bonding can go a long way with this.

cardanome2• 2 years ago

I think career success is purely whether people like you or not.

Your skills and contributions don't matter at all as long as they are not so bad that people absolutely can not ignore it. Companies are mostly build on diffusing individual responsibility. Even if you majorly mess up as long as the right people like you you will be fine.

Doesn't mean one needs to be an extrovert. Just have good social skills in general. It really depends on what your superiors prefer and the general company culture. Sometimes being quiet and not sticking out can be an asset as well. Sometimes people will like you because you have (or pretend to have) deep technical knowledge, sometimes they will hate you because you make them feel inferior and it is better to play dumb. Know your audience.

sweezyjeezy5• 2 years ago

Are you not generalising in the same way? Because you are introverted and successful, does that mean extroversion is bad advice for all?

dandellion• 2 years ago

He is providing a counter example, which is not the same as generalising.

Twirrim• 2 years ago

This whole introvert/extrovert label drives me a little crazy, just like almost anything that attempts to put people into boxes.

Humanity really needs to get past this foolish notion that things are black and white instead of the real shades of grey.

I probably straddle the line of introvert/extrovert. People tire me out, and I recharge in solitude like an introvert, but I'm also quite gregarious, and need to be around people getting a regular fix. I could never work solo on anything. I couldn't cope in a role that doesn't involve at least a handful of meetings a week (though they have to be legitimate, because I hate wasting my time in meetings and get easily bored in them).

I'm probably close to what OP was talking about, and it has certainly been integral to my progression to staff engineer, but like you I disagree with the premise that you need to be particular ways to make progress in your career.

While all of the staff engineers I work with operate at the same kind of level, I'm surrounded by staff and staff+ engineers of every stripe. From extremely introverted specialists in particular fields, all the way to extreme extroverts focusing on cross org collaboration and consensus, and every possible combination of behavior in between. That diversity is essential to our effectiveness.

UniverseHacker3• 2 years ago

The introvert/extrovert concept was developed by Carl Jung and is both a continuum, and is logical and clearly defined. It also is just one dimension of limitless ones that can describe a persons personality. Yours and most other criticisms of the concept apply to popular misunderstandings of the idea, but not the original concept itself.

Like you I am an introvert that is very social and friendly, enjoys social interaction, and does not have much social anxiety… but too much social interaction is exhausting to me, and requires me to recharge. People tend to confuse introversion with social anxiety and antisocial attitudes which are both distinctly different.

d0liver• 2 years ago

If you don't mind my asking, what do you do?

ternnoburn7• 2 years ago

Manage an engineering team

JasserInicide• 2 years ago

They are applying a "it worked for me, therefore it works for all" mentality.

And then you do the same thing in the next line...

gosub1003• 2 years ago

no, they are applying the "I found one counterexample therefore the whole message must be incorrect for the general population". A distant relative of the semantic argument: "the sky is blue", "nuh-uh, not all skies are blue. once there was an atmospheric event, and the sky was a color other than blue. hence you are wrong..."

hidelooktropic3• 2 years ago

That's not what they did at all.

fud1012• 2 years ago

I think you've compensated by becoming excellent. That's not necessarily an option for others?

dot1x• 2 years ago

Don't see how this discredits the article. Making 1M a year as an autistic person might just mean you're a good trader that requires 0 human interaction. Says nothing about anything really.

ternnoburn7• 2 years ago

I'm a manager of an engineering team.

anon-3988• 2 years ago

What I learnt from this post is that no one else is going to wait for you. If you are introverted, doesn't speak up, doesn't volunteer for anything; why are you surprised that you are not growing?

riversflow• 2 years ago

It’s pretty shitty of you to not credit the creator of your image like they ask in their bio.

https://unsplash.com/@lighttouchedphotography
https://unsplash.com/photos/brown-wooden-bench-PWxcv9hKOQc

xlii• 2 years ago

I don’t find article interesting at all. I agree with others that it’s full of gaps and „sound advice”.

Subject is interesting though and I, as person that naturally is introvert I can attest that avoidance doesn’t help. Negative effects doesn’t come suddenly, but after working remotely for 15+ years and mentoring many in similar situation I am sure that sooner or later bliss of solitude develops into non fun, hard to fix conditions.

But then what author describes at start isn’t an introvert/extrovert/shy or anxious person. It’s an obstructionist, a naysayer. Someone who always have an argument for not doing something.

I avoid such people and either remove from or leave teams where it’s impossible. Maybe they have reasons for being bad apples, but that’s not my job to fix it.

jeffrallen• 2 years ago

This is a profound misunderstanding of introversion. An introvert may choose to develop and use the skills of social connection that come naturally to an extrovert. But at what cost? If the situation demands extroverted behavior, then do it, fine. But the introvert pays a cost to recharge and come back to whatever equilibrium is normal for them. If the cost/benefit does not work out, an introvert can and should make the choice to exhibit introverted behaviors.

Being an introvert who is capable of extroverted behaviors, I always felt confused about the question, "Are you an introvert or an extrovert?" It became clear to me when I read an explanation that went like this: After a dinner party where you meet some new people are you left energized or exhausted? If you're exhausted it is because you're an introvert.

cdrini7• 2 years ago

My issue is it just so greatly depends. Certain parties, if I have some sort of pressure on me, I leave tired. Other parties, I leave happy and contented. I might even be tired, but overall happy! When I'm going to a party, I might feel dread, or I might feel exhilarated! And that rarely has an impact on how I feel after the party/gathering.

That's largely why I think the introvert/extrovert theory is not super accurate as a theory. In my experience, my energy after a party is not a constant that depends only on my personality. It depends almost entirely on external factors -- what my day was like, where my head is, who I'm meeting, what they're like, what we're doing, etc.

And: I can often place myself in a state of mind that makes me more or less amenable to a social gathering, and helps me enjoy it more; which will generally make me feel less tired/more satisfied when I leave.

megamix• 2 years ago

Screw this. Guess my type.

riffraff• 2 years ago

The second challenge is the misconception that communication should be natural and effortless. While the reality is, it takes effort to communicate and drains energy for everyone.

Yeah, no. It's 100% effortless for me to communicate with people I'm familiar with, and a massive effort to talk to people I don't know or are mere acquaintances. For my wife it is not only effortless but a massive energy boost to interact with a person whether they know them or not.

I think the author says some right things but vastly over generalizes.

interludead7• 2 years ago

I think it's all about context and intention. We should embrace growth, not labels, and recognize the beauty in both collaboration and quiet connection

Izkata4• 2 years ago

I'm seeing a fundamental misunderstanding in both the article and a lot of the comments here, that to me seems closely related to the "some people have no inner voice" / "some people can't visualize things" findings: People making the assumption that how you act defines whether you're an introvert or an extrovert because only the external expression exists, not the internal state. And so all their examples reveal they think introvert/extrovert refer to how social a person is in the moment, instead of what it actually is - a measure of how draining (or not) social interactions are.

You really can't tell if someone is an introvert or extrovert in one instance in a setting, only in what happens later - it's totally possible to be a social introvert, for example, it just means you need alone time later to recharge before you can go again. When not given a chance to recharge it can come off in various ways depending on the person - often people describe it as getting tired, I've also seen snippiness, and I tend to get a headache.

entropyneur• 2 years ago

I'm not convinced introverts and extroverts even exist. All people have a need for company and a need for solitude. Depending on how well each of these needs is satisfied you may feel one or the other way. Most of the time I see people describe themselves as introverts they are describing shyness or social anxiety.

Koshcheiushko• 2 years ago

I get the message of this article. I feel like someone wrote it for me. Thanks

HellDunkel• 2 years ago

“Hey man, what’s up? Why don’t you approach and talk to a few here? They are friendly, you know. You like Open Source, so maybe talk to that guy (pointing to a senior of mine) and ask him how he got started.”.

A very patronizing attempt at connecting people…

vasco4• 2 years ago

Most negative self labels have this property, not just introversion.

I know people that say "they are always late haha", people that say "they aren't good at math", people that say "they don't like art" and many others, and they just serve to hold you back. In almost every time I hear this, I just hear "I decided I don't want to be or do this".

And even if you were truly bad at something that is expected by society, thinking of yourself as bad at it won't really help much. It's much more useful to just recognize your skill level for what it is and just understand that everything improves the more you try to do it better.

knorker4• 2 years ago

Not sure I would say introversion is a negative self label.

people that say "they are always late haha"

No, that just means "I don't respect other people or their time, haha".

people that say "they aren't good at math"

There are people who say it as an excuse to not try. But you know, some people are bad at math, so maybe let's have someone else on the team do that part?

But what's the difference to "I don't want to do/learn math"? You don't have to. There's no guard rails on life, you can go out and eat dirt right now if that makes you happy, nobody's going to stop you.

people that say "they don't like art"

I've not encountered this. Art, like any art? I think this is just not understanding just how much classifies as "art".

thinking of yourself as bad

I'm not "bad" because I'm an introvert. I'm not "bad" as socializing. What makes you say introvert is some sort of insult?

It's not "bad" of me to be perfectly happy not interacting with anybody for weeks. I don't actually do that, because research shows that this is bad for your long term health, but an extrovert would absolutely not like that one bit. I find it more "bad" if I'm in a waiting room or something and some stranger can't just STFU for 30 minutes while we're waiting.

It says more about you than about introverts that you seem so hostile to it/them.

vasco4• 2 years ago

It is funny that you reply to a diatribe about not attaching yourself to labels to come across as very defensive of the label you've given yourself. My whole point is we're not anything, you're not an introvert is my point.

kidneystereotyp2• 2 years ago

when will our benevolent overlords drop mind reading tech qualitative psychology is so exhausting after a point

Tainnor3• 2 years ago

This article mixes up a bunch of different things.

Being a good communicator doesn't mean you have to be an "extrovert at work". There are many different styles of communication. I tend to be the guy who prefers async communication, will write explanatory comments on my own PRs, documents the WIP state on my tickets (especially before weekends or vacations etc.). Others are the kinds of people that'll happily go over a PR in a call. You just have to find modes of working that sort of work for everyone.

andhuman• 2 years ago

I’m not good with words, but I’m good at thinking. That leads me to listen more than I talk during gatherings. To listen is to concentrate, doubly so for crowded events. You need to think about what the person is saying, and you need to filter out the noise around you. No, try to talk instead of listen and see how that feels. Change the equation. Let others come up with good responses to your ramblings for once. Of course, this can feel a bit egotistic. The other way around it is to stop caring that much what the other person is saying. We're all here talking shit. At the end of the day, what matters is if you were seen, if the other person felt seen and validated. That's what's great about talking to another person. You got seen by an animal that can understand you the most: humans.

solatic• 2 years ago

I really wish people could ditch the "introvert vs. extrovert" framing. As a label, it is not helpful for anyone's personal growth.

People think salespeople are some kind of natural "extrovert". I hate to break it to you, but cold calling is draining for everyone. Salespeople may get particularly good at reducing the emotional expenditure involved in making cold calls, to be able to making a lot of them for long periods, but it is fundamentally a practice where one expends energy out into the world and gets absolutely nothing in return. I promise you, any salesperson making cold calls with no "nibbles on the line" eventually begins to doubt themselves and looks to make an exit. This is also why online dating is so draining for so many people, despite applications not inducing any "social interaction" like actual conversation - if you invest emotional energy into something that does not return emotional energy to you, then you will drain yourself if you are not careful.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are specific, individual people in our lives who fill us with energy and joy, who we love to spend time with. These are people we "vibe" with, who are on our wavelength, so to speak. When you have someone, maybe even more than one, such person in your life, I doubt you would like to spend less time with them.

Social skills are about finding more people who give you energy and resisting people who drain your energy. Finding more people who give you energy is, yes, a cold-calling skill, one where you take the risk of investing, from time to time, a small and limited amount of energy in the universe in the hope of finding a social energy return. But it is also about resisting people who drain your energy. Sometimes we need to interact with people in our families or at work who we can't just cut out of our lives, for one reason or another, who drain us. One can hardly be faulted for not having the energy, at the end of the day, to go network at some social function when they're already drained. But it is also that person's responsibility to learn to manage their emotional energy so that they will have some for the cold-calling that is necessary to find the people we vibe with. You do not need to vibe with everyone, and framing people with really good cold-calling skills as "extroverts" avoids the fact that such people do not actually vibe with everyone, they are just better at both the cold-calling skills involved as well as managing their emotional energy levels.

gardenhedge2• 2 years ago

The author misses the mark completely with this post. I not sure if they even know what introvert means. I recommend the book Quiet.

andycowley• 2 years ago

Wow. This is an incredibly insular, and empathy devoid take. The author's binary assumption that introversion and introversion are choices are incredible.

Go and do some research on neurodivergence, and then go and have a think about how harmful this advice is.

The emotional toll that it must have taken on Aditya just to be there without some grinning goon come lolloping towards him telling him just because they can do a thing anyone can do a thing must have been incredible.

0xEF3• 2 years ago

Sadly, the grinning goon is often the reality of the situation.

I grew up being treated as weird because I hated crowds and needed to rest after interacting with people. Externally, this got treated as me hating people and noisy places, which is not really true at all. I like people and when I have enough bandwidth available, I'll gladly interact with them even knowing that it will cost me some shut-down time later. There's a,"spoons" analogy for this that people seem to like, but I tend to think of it more in terms of how a computer allocates resources to process information.

The "noisy" bit is really more social noise, but some environments acoustically confound me. Coffee shops, for example, where the espresso machines make those god-awful noises at random intervals, only to bounce around in some idiotic open-ceiling aesthetic that has become fashionable for reasons I do not understand, since even extroverts like to hear who they are talking to. Thankfully, I have really nice earplugs.

Anyway, it was not until my 20's that I was diagnosed with Anxiety, which made things click. People that do not experience this have no clue, but I can't really blame them. The advertising and entertainment media I grew up on always displayed social interaction as healthy or some kind of key to happiness, which got pigeon-holed as "normal behavior", so who would want to be unhealthy or unhappy? You were supposed to just get out there and it would get easier with time, right? These people mean well, but again, they have no clue.

But the opposite is true. One of my best friends is a textbook extrovert, constantly needing social interaction and experiencing heavy mental and emotional distress when he's alone with just himself and his thoughts for too long. I have no clue what that's like, though I possess enough empathy to understand that's how he is wired, so his needs are different than mine (he also has enough empathy to return the same understanding toward my needs).

Empathy, as you imply, bridges that gap but also takes tremendous effort, hence why Othering is such a pervasive social issue.

tecleandor• 2 years ago

Yep. Calling it an excuse is terrible.

Feeling comfortable to talk to an stranger depends on so many factors.

You could do 'extrovert' things because you're masking another thing. Because you're forcing yourself (and that can be exhausting). Because you feel in a safe or comfortable place. Or because it feels part of a duty or something like that.

A weird thing in my case is that it's quite difficult for me (although it doesn't like like that from the outside, I look quite outgoing) to go and talk to somebody that looks interesting to me, even when I'm on a place that is meant for that: a congress, workshop, whatever. I've been three years in a row going to PyConES, being part of Python Spain, knowing people there, and only this last year I've began to talk to some people. I can ask technical or specific questions, but I can't open a cold conversation.

But in the other hand, I can easily do a talk to a big audience or appear on a nation-wide TV show, and I'd barely get nervous.

Some people force themselves to do 'extrovert stuff' because social norms, or work needs, to fit somewhere, or because they want to get or do something very specific and 'that's the way to do it', but it's very taxing.

Some people (overlapping with that previous group) have identified that 'going extrovert' is tiring and taxing for them, and they rather don't do it unless it's really necessary. And they say it. And I really respect that, because they take care of themselves, and also helps the others around them to not step on their limits.

(I'm sleepy, haven't had my coffee, English is not my first language, please forgive my convoluted phrasing)

coolio1232• 2 years ago

My case is like this: I get no anxiety talking to people, I have nothing against talking to people, and I believe I can get my point across well enough and fluently when I need to get things done.

However, whenever there is a social gathering and such that I have to attend, my default, standard set of activities unless someone approaches me is to just look around look at my surroundings, get lost in my headspace while taking a walk around the place while tuning out others and greeting anyone who I happen to know. If I happen to be interested in having a conversation with someone, I will have it. But I'm simply not interested in people by default, or meeting people for the sake of it.

I have never spontaneously felt any inadequacy with myself when doing this. What inadequacies are there have almost exclusively have been pointed out to me by others, much in the same way the author does with Aditya here. I just don't ever feel a need to talk or force a conversation unless others (relatives and colleagues) are pressuring me to do so.

The mannerisms of the Author are what I've often heard from the management people in the companies that I've worked for and in some Linkedin posts. I'm not trying to deny at all that effective communication and networking has its benefits, but the way they talk, including the Author's article often makes me feel like they're masking an insurmountable amount of annoyance and vitriol for those who just don't want to talk. It's as if they will not accept anything other than the status quo of constant chatter and networking.

xandrius2• 2 years ago

I'd imagine the keyword is "have to attend".

If you truly have no choice then who's to blame you but if you decide to show up to a party and then proceed to walk around and look at the furniture all night then maybe you could have put a minimum amount of effort to engage with others who could have stayed at home that day?

But if you are somewhere to listen to some nice talks and then they force you to "network" then I'd say it's totally ok to sit it out and avoid anything unwanted.

yapyap• 2 years ago

“ Hey man, what’s up? Why don’t you approach and talk to a few here? They are friendly, you know. You like Open Source, so maybe talk to that guy (pointing to a senior of mine) and ask him how he got started “

ah yes nothing says being a party host like whispering to someone the exact words they should say like they’re a child learning to socialize.

I agree with most of the other HN comments that this article, while hitting the nail on the head when talking about socialness and how that is linked to appreciation in the workplace, is not very kind to anyone who strays from this socializing.

Kind of like the author got taught he had to socialize, as a rule. and feels a disdain towards people ‘breaking’ that rather unspoken social rule

andyjohnson03• 2 years ago

Interesting article because it made me [1] think. But poor article because the author's apparent lack of awareness leads them to get so much wrong.

I suspect that the author is a straight-up extravert who thinks that introversion is the same as shyness (its not), and that their claim to be an "introvert in friendship" allows them to claim to be "deep" (wrong again, introversion is not a virtue and extraversion is not the same as superficiality).

Basically this reads like some think piece I'd expect to see on LinkedIn. Kind of like "How to Succeed as a Senior Staff Engineer", written by a 23 year old.

I wonder how the author of this piece will feel about it later in their life - perhaps as their awareness of the limits of their awareness becomes clearer.

[1] I identify as an introvert

atleastoptimal• 2 years ago

I am an introvert not because I don’t like socializing with people, but rather because I can’t shake the impression that they don’t like socializing with me (and I have been proven right in this notion).

In order to become more likable I’ve had to adopt an extremely perceptive and self critical mental framework to analyze every thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or offend people. It has worked, and people seem to like me more, but the mental exhaustion it induces has led to me often yearning for alone time.

I wonder if introverts like me are common: those who enjoy socializing very much when they feel socially safe, but rarely feel socially safe.

zdc1• 2 years ago

I do wonder how much is extraversion vs introversion, and much are other factors like shyness/social anxiety, or as another commenter mentioned, being non-neurotypical. I feel like these discussions are full of mislabelled terms and people who may not be fully self-aware of where they sit.

In social media I often see terms like "Introverted Extrovert" get thrown around when sometimes they just mean that they're an introvert who's good at masking. On the other hand, my energy level goes up in a group, but I definitely need time to warm up to new people before I can be comfortable around them.

HPsquared5• 2 years ago

I see "introverted extrovert" as a kind of frustrated extrovert who doesn't have compatible people around to socialise with so feels the need to mask and work hard to socialise with incompatible people. Which is of course tiring.

lll-o-lll3• 2 years ago

You might be a bit autistic, common enough in the software world. Lookup something called “autistic masking”.

Source: All the autistic people in my life. I really like autistic people! Find your people and you won’t have to pretend around them.

frognumber• 2 years ago

Right now, we increasingly like to stick labels on things, and I'm not sure it's helpful.

Autism is a disorder, diagnosed in DSM V. Very few people in your life are likely to be autistic. As with many such things, it's a spectrum. Unless those cross a pathological threshold, it's not autism. Few SWEs are over that threshold.

We used to call people "nerdy," "quirky," or other things (and it was okay to be that). That's in the natural spread of human personalities. If you're 5% of the way towards dyslexia, autism, obsessive-compulsive disorder, or whatever else, it's in the range of human personalities, not disorders.

It's helpful to understand how different people work. Most SWEs and introverts share some characteristics with people with autism, and reading about autism can help understand oneself by interpolation. However, the label is not fair either people with actual autism, or to people without autism who believe they have it.

Footnote: My experience is that extrovert versus introvert is mostly a function of whether you're invigorated by interacting with people or tired by it, and especially by people you don't know well. Yes, social skills are helpful, a skill one can develop, and important to one's career, but so are math or medicine. A good strategy for an introvert is to partner with an extrovert.

hnbad2• 2 years ago

Same with ADHD. People with ADHD often experience social friction because they may be perceived as rude or bad listeners. Plus of course there's significant overlap between people with ADHD and autistic people (as well as an overlap in symptoms). ADHD doesn't have to present as being fidgety and hyper either, inattentiveness (i.e. not being able to control your focus well) is another big aspect. If as a kid you kept hearing "you're so smart, if only you would apply yourself more" while already working yourself to exhaustion (especially if you have a high IQ and used that to compensate for "forgetfulness" or "procrastination"), that may have simply been inattentive type ADHD.

I used to think I was very autistic until I underwent a thorough diagnostic process and learned that while I am indeed autistic, most of what I had been experiencing was actually crippling ADHD I was committing most of my mental capacity to compensate.

sans_souse• 2 years ago

Please don't try to diagnose people based on a couple paragraphs, on an internet forum, who didn't ask for a diagnosis in the first place.

xedrac• 2 years ago

This rings true for me. I have an autistic daughter and I'm not nearly as severe as she is. But social interactions stress me out, even though I enjoy interacting with people when I have the energy for it. Add to that my sensitivities to sound, light, taste, touch and smell, and it's pretty clear that I am at least on the spectrum. It may be just a label, but helps me make sense of many of my quirks.

PaulHoule• 2 years ago

My suspicion is that many people who think they have autism or ADHD really have

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypy

Myself I learned to outperform extroverts at their own game temporarily (can do cold calls all day with zero fear) although I use a lot of tricks based on dissociation (I have a fox that comes out when I need it, in fact it just told me I have to get in better physical shape to be a better host.)

blueflow13• 2 years ago

analyze every thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or offend people

Is this a "you" problem or a "they" problem?

fairity• 2 years ago

Why would it matter? OP is experiencing an undesirable outcome, and assigning blame for the problem seems besides the point when the main goal is to change the outcome.

jimkleiber3• 2 years ago

I try to just adopt the perspective that people like me, often more than they might even think they do.

It's not easy to do but when I do it, it makes it a lot easier for me to want to interact with them.

And if you want, ive built tools and tricks to help me with this that I could share.

mojifwisi• 2 years ago

I am not OP, but I am interested in those tools and tricks.

gedy• 2 years ago

In the context of work outings and socializing, this is doubly so if you are older or unattractive. If you are at a company with a lot of young 20 somethings, they largely really have no interest in being around you, and attempts to socialize with opposite sex can easily be misconstrued (by them) as unwanted.

So it's frankly not worth it, and not sure why I'd even want to put myself in those situations.

And before you reply "well maybe you are being creepy", well QED

mixmastamyk• 2 years ago

People will want to talk with an older boss.

scarface_74• 2 years ago

The further up I get in my career and especially when I fell into consulting in 2020 and more so after Covid lifted, I’ve had to “act like I like people”. I’ve studied how to talk to and deal with people a lot over the past few years. I’m good at it. But it is tiring.

I was also an only child. While I have four friend groups including my cousins I grew up with, there are plenty of times I enjoy just being alone or even sitting alone in a crowd where I don’t have to talk to people.

My wife knows that about me and she can sense when I just need some me time.

fud1012• 2 years ago

oversharing, being mean or harsh, not being sympathetic, not continuing the conversation etc, those would hurt your socialising.

xhrpost• 2 years ago

Though often conflated, there is a difference between introversion (preference towards less external stimuli) and shyness (fear of social judgement). You may be a shy extrovert.

Also I can totally relate to the hyper fixation on "what does this person think if me right now with everything I say?" I wish I had a simple super effective answer but I think it just takes small improvements over time. In general, if you're willing to show a reasonable level of mutual interest in the other person, they will reciprocate and with practice this can be trusted such that the anxiety reduces. Also accept that some people will just not be interested or necessarily like you and that's ok, but hard at first for sure, especially if you've faced social rejection earlier in life.

scotty792• 2 years ago

There's also a thing called schizoid personality that about 1% of people have. Maybe "proud introverts" of this article are mostly that.

The name schizoid sounds terrible but it's basically self sufficiency and reduced need for real world human contact. This enables evaluating opportunity of each one on its merits and for people who had prior bad experiences might result in avoidance of almost all human contact. Since there's no emotional cost of that such people can be pretty shameless about it. Hence connotation of "proud" and antipathy from non-schizoid people like the author of this article.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorde...

HPsquared5• 2 years ago

I think it's 90% contextual and depends on who you happen to be with. Just like the whole "alpha male" idea, or even the economic concept of value of goods/services (subjective theory of value).

People try and generalise too much to make these clunky mental models of the world and of people.

With the internet it's increasingly common for a person's preferred social group to be somewhere online, and the people you meet in your daily life IRL are not of this group, they are not "your people" and it's tiring to deal with them. Even if you were to meet those people IRL the dynamics would be different IRL. The whole thing is kind of cursed.

JackMorgan• 2 years ago

Some amount of social anxiety has to be a pre-modern survival trait. Strangers from another tribe or clan were often extremely dangerous. Even travel used to be fraught with bandits and highway robbery.

Many modern activities will put someone in close proximity to lots of strangers. Airports, public transit, busy streets, college parties, even big grocery stores all have lots of strangers. A person who doesn't want to be surrounded by strangers is probably feeling an ancient survival instinct. Now, if that feeling prevents them from visiting family, living a happy life, or accomplishing their goals, it's a problem. But I don't think feeling uneasy in a location filled with strangers is inherently unhealthy.

Likewise introversion isn't a bad thing. Some people would just prefer to be alone, and that's okay. Maybe it's a muscle they could strengthen, but I've known enough introverted folks who constantly practice social skills but never increase their inbuilt number of "social hours". They love people, love entertaining and meeting people, but as soon as that number is hit they go off into their room and don't come out for a few days. I don't think this is an issue, they've got a fixed amount of social energy and that's that.

jl63• 2 years ago

It’s a modern survival trait too, particularly for women, from whom we are all descended.

blueflow13• 2 years ago

This is repeated often, but recently i found out that men lead all categories (except sexual assault and domestic violence) of being the victims of crime. You are safer if you are a woman.

revskill• 2 years ago

No. It is not extrovert at work, it is about raising awareness to others about your concerns.

Micral8022• 2 years ago

300+ comments so far, and no mention of the elephant in the Valley : Asperger and it's 666 shades of narcissism.

I'm "on the spectrum", but conscious that narcissism in the bane of humankind.

Halas, 8 of the 10 richest American individuals disagree with me, and the #1 just got in power ;-)

mgh22• 2 years ago

“The odds are good, but the goods are odd” - why is SV full of wierdos? Part of the answer lies in social isolation. Whether you like it or not and regardless of personality, humans are social creatures. This was evident from covid.

To avoid interacting with others is not only a disservice to your own growth but also to society. It is much easier to live in your own world then go out there and learn - books and the web are not substitutes.

You see this effect on today’s generation who rely on internet bubbles, brainwashing and biases to inform their thinking, hardly having critical skills (ex: woke). You can only blame the system (big tech) to a certain extent, but the individual should ultimately take responsibility.

Being born (disadvantaged) an introvert is no excuse as being born a foreigner (ex: H1Bs) or a sinner, you still have to do your best in becoming a better version of yourself.

blueflow13• 2 years ago

Implied in this: That learning about other people will make you like them more and not lead to increased wishes for isolation.

mgh22• 2 years ago

Sure people are not the best creatures, but it is part of the painful learning curve

shreddit• 2 years ago

When you see me at social gatherings you would either label me as an introvert or an extrovert. It totally depends on the people i am around. Not like whether i know the people or not (i will happily socialize with strangers on the right topic), but rather what type of people and what the current topic is. I deeply dislike small talk, or people i know (or at least i think) don’t share any common interests with me. That’s why i am quite the talkative person at work but mostly quiet (and uninterested) in private.

throw4847285• 2 years ago

The amount of folk psychology in both that article and this thread is disappointing but expected. Introversion has become a fuzzy and basically useless term that gets folded into a number of unrelated concepts: neuroticism, openness to experience, and agreeableness.

I think that people get attached to the introvert/extravert division because it's the most clearly defined by social relations. It takes less introspection to be able to look at social group and define one's self relative to one's peers in terms of how much others seem to enjoy spending time in shared company compared to one's self.

The reality is that somebody might crave a lot of human contact but be paralyzed by social anxiety (that's me). Or maybe they don't want to leave their comfort zone but once out there can engage in long deep conversations with others, even strangers. We also mix into that stew social lubricants like alcohol, drugs, and board games that can warp a social situation and reward different social behaviors.

Ultimately, I think people understand a lot less about themselves than they realize (and I include myself in that). We latch onto the simplest categories, and we especially love categories that depict us as victims of societal circumstance, or somehow superior to the people around us.

The reality is that if you pick one dimension of psychological categorization like a diagnosis or a trait like introversion, and then look at all the people who share that, I think they share less in common than they might assume.

mkl95• 2 years ago

Being open with a select group of collaborators has gained me above average praise, promotions, etc. over the years. You don't need to be an extrovert to be an average or slightly above average engineer, you just have to pick your battles appropriately and understand the problems you are solving. OP is optimizing for a rat race that most people don't care about.

red-iron-pine2• 2 years ago

you don't have to play the game all of the time, just be social with the right people in the right places.

FuriouslyAdrift• 2 years ago

If I spend a lot of time socializing in a group of people I do not closely know, I will experience intense depression and loss of energy for about a day or so.

That's introversion.

I love being around people but it sucks the life out of me. I get energized through working on projects and reading. Inherently private pursuits.

andyjohnson03• 2 years ago

My impression is that (a) extraverts and introverts both have some mutual incomprehension, but that (b) this is greater in extraverts.

Am I just projecting my own introvert bias onto (b) here? Or is there something structural that is responsible for this? Or am i completely wrong about (a)? Thoughts?

hidelooktropic3• 2 years ago

I know the author is well meaning, but for some part of the population, this is just more of the same hurtful invalidation we've received our entire lives.

Being neurodivergent involves others constantly encouraging us to set ourselves up for failure.

They don't see the exhaustion so they expect us to push through. They don't have our limits so they expect us to overcome ours. They have will power to get them what we don't have so they think we aren't using ours.

There's nothing in here that hasn't occurred to me before. And it's not necessarily that the conclusions are incorrect, but that for some people they come at an extreme cost to mental health and are not truly sustainable.

I would love to hear people voicing acceptance instead of more of the same of telling us that we should try harder when we're already trying to the point of constant overwhelm.

hinkley2• 2 years ago

Nothing I love more than being lectured by neurotypicals.

UniverseHacker3• 2 years ago

This author does not seem to understand extroversion vs introversion - it relates entirely to your inner experience not your behaviors, and cannot be changed. An introvert can enjoy and be good at social interaction, and use it effectively at work- but they will still be an introvert, and as such will need to ration the energy social interaction uses. This is not “being an extrovert.” Many very successful people that are skilled at networking and social interaction are introverted.

I like to point out Captain Picard from Star Trek as an (obviously fictional but quite realistic) character that is introverted, yet renown for social and negotiation skills.

When people talk about “becoming extroverted” they usually mean developing social skills, overcoming social anxiety, and/or overcoming antisocial attitudes. All of those things are completely orthogonal to introversion.

yowayb• 2 years ago

I read about a quiet little girl at school that turned out to know all the other kids (eg preferences) better than any other kid. The intro/extro dichotomy has been taken far in mainstream writing, and I think the author is addressing people that have gone too far in the introvert direction, or rather made it a permanent part of their personality.

Also, for those of you who are afraid of being judged when speaking, start by convincing yourself that other people have something interesting to teach you, then ask questions.

lazylizard• 2 years ago

it is work. i have to think very hard. to talk strangers.

not least i prefer to write.

and so its a choice.

essnine• 2 years ago

This whole piece reeks a little bit of a certain sort of spite - forgive me for a misjudgement if I've made one, but it's almost like the author took that one person's reluctance to participate as a personal affront and treated the "I am not an extrovert" line as a flimsy excuse from someone with an ego problem. It's essentially just a setup to frame introversion as a social problem of some sort and very gently implies that introverted folks have a superiority complex about it.

I can't take the whole thing seriously because it's such an odd case to make - what is the end goal? To address anyone who may experience social anxiety or just a reluctance to join in a completely new social situation, and say, "No, whatever you might have going on in your head is completely untrue, dude, trust me"? I mean, there's not a morsel of objectivity or grace anywhere in the whole thing, just an admonishment for people who aren't wired the same way the author is.

The feeling I get here is essentially that the author wanted to feel like they're in the right about how they see a social event should go, decided to write it up in a way that sounds very serious and selfless and in the best interest of all the introverts out there, and share it so that they... maybe get a good debate going? I don't know.

When it comes to individual behavior in group settings, it's hard to really say where a particular person may be coming from in terms of how they perceive psychological safety and comfort, or if they are misjudging their decision to participate for a reason that has nothing to do with the situation itself. People may participate in different ways, people may drop off or leave for different reasons. Which is fine, it's part of the social contract we have with each other. It might hurt sometimes, but it's a part of the thing.

And there are already quite a few workarounds for this sort of thing too? The whole notion of plus-ones in social affairs is partly so that you're not left feeling isolated once the event is rolling. Large organizations have onboarding buddies and pair work sessions to get folks up to speed. Some clubs have chaperones or one-on-one buddies for new joiners. These are all patterns that exist. There's no evidence of any of this in the anecdote or the rest of the write-up. And again, this is subjective, but to me it all reads like it's dripping with condescension.

If "introversion is not an excuse, you need to work on it for your own good, trust me because I know better and have read a few books" is the takeaway here, then yeesh, maybe the author hasn't given the matter of introversion or extraversion any real thought beyond "phew, I'm so glad I know better because I'm doing so good" and "I wish those introverts tried harder instead of sitting around thinking they know better".

turnsout• 2 years ago

Personally I reject this false dichotomy. If you identify as an introvert or extrovert, ask yourself if the label is helping you move toward the person you want to be. If it’s not, then you can choose to drop the label.

The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

Related Stories