Sleep duration, chronotype, health and lifestyle factors affect cognition [pdf]

https://bmjpublichealth.bmj.com/content/bmjph/2/1/e001000.full.pdf

by susam • 2 years ago

285 184 2 years ago

bmjpublichealth.bmj.com

dsolo777• 2 years ago

Interestingly, our study did not identify a significant relationship between sleep quality—that is, sleeplessness/insomnia and cognitive performance— contrary to some previous findings
The regression highlighted a positive association between normal sleep duration (7–9 hours) and cognitive scores... while extended sleep duration negatively impacted scores across both cohorts
intermediate and evening types, were linked to superior cognitive function

propaganda by big insomnia ;)

kranner2• 2 years ago

More like propaganda by Big Alcohol, given the following

Individuals who abstained from alcohol showed lower cognitive scores than those who consumed alcohol, conflicting with previous research that has connected moderate drinking with cognitive impairment. Weekly and monthly alcohol consumption, as opposed to daily drinking, was found to somewhat correlate with lower cognitive scores.

treetalker2• 2 years ago

This is a situation of correlation ≠ causation, because — as all Rick & Morty fans know — some geniuses are drinking copiously just to slow down their turbo-charged intellects. :-)

danielheath• 2 years ago

Those who abstain entirely are disproportionately likely to be former alcoholics - which explains eg the apparent protective effect of moderate drinking

mnk47• 2 years ago

So the Ballmer Peak is real!

https://xkcd.com/323/

luke-stanley• 2 years ago

Some might just be avoiding falling asleep or being even less capable.

bratbag• 2 years ago

Hypothesis: The better you understand the world, the more likely you are to need an occasional drink.

bitexploder3• 2 years ago

Every study I have ever read emphasized importance of sleep. Many show grey matter reduction long term the less you sleep. Sleep studies literally use a little alcohol to disrupt sleep. All the research out there indicates alcohol also directly shrinks your grey matter. These findings are hard to believe for sure.

rawgabbit• 2 years ago

The study appears to say alcohol consumption has protective effect on cognition. Those who drank had less cognitive decline compared to those who abstained completely. If this is correct, this directly contradicts the other studies that says alcohol has zero benefits?

InDubioProRubio• 2 years ago

My pet theory is that extended sleep correlates with hide-away, hunger and depression modes - which signal to our body that energy must be conserved. And cognition without the ability to act is the definition of energy waste.

jamesmotherway• 2 years ago

Long sleep duration often presents with poor sleep quality, which negatively impacts cognition.

"Long total sleep time may suggest prior sleep deprivation, medical conditions, or effects of medications."[1]

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4246141/

The_Colonel3• 2 years ago

I've been taking creatine for a while and it has interesting effects. On one hand, it seems making my sleep worse, i.e. sleeping less and kind of lightly? On the other hand, it helps me with cognitive performance, I get way less mentally exhausted during the day than I used to.

lynx23• 2 years ago

normal sleep duration (7–9 hours)

Show me one employed person with a life that manages to get 8 hours sleep on average. Most commuters would have to go to bed at 2100 to get a breakfast and enough time to get to work. I only get 8 hours when I know I am sleep deprived and go to bed at 2100. However, this is not "normal", and I bet it isn't normal for most. So why do we call it normal, then?

louvki• 2 years ago

idk it's normal for me but then again i live in Denmark and i dont have any children

hansc• 2 years ago

I do sleep 8+ hours each night (Netherlands): Up at 7.30, leave at 8.15, 30m commute. Leave work at 5.15, get to sleep around 10.45.

hug• 2 years ago

I work a full time tech job, I am out with friends or on a “date night” with my partner three or four times a week every week, and I have a few hobbies like music production and combat robotics.

I get at least 8 hours every night. My “must be home and in bed” time on a weeknight is by 12:30AM, and I sleep in until 8:45AM. I am normally woken by my alarm.

Weekends I simply set an alarm for 9 hours after I get in bed, which sometimes means sleeping until 2PM.

I don’t eat breakfast, and I basically never commute in the morning, but if I do, my office is about 15 minutes away.

XCSme2• 2 years ago

In the EU it's quite normal for the average person to get the 8 hours of sleep. Of course, it depends on the work sector you are in, but for most jobs you don't have to wake up at 6 AM. Also, most people live close to their work, within 30 minutes of biking/driving/public transport.

beowulfey• 2 years ago

My breakfast is a cup of coffee and toast usually but since I live a 25 min bike ride from my work (in New England USA) I can usually leave around 800, which means I can sleep at 2300 for 8 hours easily.

Now, does my body do that?... no, usually it wakes me up after 6-7, but whatever.

bregma• 2 years ago

Most days I'm in bed (and asleep withing 5 minutes) at 22:00 and awake at 05:30. I'm over 60, 7.5 hours sleep is just right for me. I have a one-hour commute each way and usually leave home at 06:45 and arrive back around 18:00.

It doesn't matter what time I go to bed, my eyes pop open at 05:30 and I have to get up (a) to micturate (did I mention I'm over 60?) and (2) feed the cats. The latter have trained me using medieval methods. When I was younger I would sleep as late as I could: my record was sleeping in until 16:00, and boys oh boys did that cause me to feel wretched.

bitexploder3• 2 years ago

I ran a consulting business for a long time. Sleeping that much is no problem if you prioritize it. Kids, wife, etc. You just have to organize your life around your priorities. It does mean little time for extraneous entertainment during the week, but that’s ok.

buttscicles• 2 years ago

Interestingly everybody replying to this is saying they spend ~8 hours in bed, which most certainly means they aren't getting 8 hours of sleep :)

coldpie• 2 years ago

I go to sleep at 9:30 and wake up at 5:30 every day. Sometimes I go crazy and stay up till 10, but that's rare. My bus leaves at 7 AM (40 minute commute), so that's plenty of time for coffee & breakfast & a shower before I have to head out the door. I get home from work at about 4:30 PM, plenty of time to cook dinner or do home stuff or go see friends or whatever before going to bed at 9.

bityard3• 2 years ago

"Normal" in the context of the body's actual sleep needs, not "normal" in the sense that everyone has the time or life management skills to achieve those needs.

("Normal" also depends on age: babies sleep a lot more than 8 hours a day, teenagers also typically need more sleep than they actually get.)

npras1• 2 years ago

agree.

This "8 hours of sleep" is just a made up number.

Most adults (with responsibilities) don't sleep for 8 hours daily. They sleep far less.

And sleeping less than that is enough to live a very healthy life. If you feel your body/mind didn't rest well because you didn't get your 8 hour sleep, it's likely because you've been exposed to, and came to believe all these articles saying you do need 8 hrs min sleep. It's simply not the case. You can function very well on 6.5/7 hrs of sleep. I'm nearing 40 and I do.

2 worthy links:

https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ - debunks the popular "why we sleep" book

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqlzQMB1fN8 - this guy is a S&C coach who's 30 and strong. He too believes sleep is overstated.

ETH_start• 2 years ago

So the main findings are superior cognitive performance being found in:

• people who sleep normal amounts (7–9 hours)

• night owls

gonzo41• 2 years ago

What if you're a night owl who sleeps in. Does that make you just an offset normie?

johnathandos• 2 years ago

Aren’t we all just offset normies?

SlightlyLeftPad• 2 years ago

I would argue no because, while you’re doing stuff that matters to you, everyone else is done with their day and partying. You’d just be asleep while everyone else is pretending to do their work.

slt20212• 2 years ago

night owls are people who are sensitive to light/noise/environment and therefore more productive in the night - when they can focus and be productive for prolonged periods of time without million of distractions.

when you don't have people calling, texting, slacking, zooming you, environmental noises (car, neighbours, other people, dogs), when you don't have personal life distractions (wife, kids, personal email, social media etc) - you can be in a flow state for prolonged time and be quite productive.

even such a small thing as lunch break, and other snack breaks - divides your day into two killing the flow.

theshackleford• 2 years ago

Even when controlling for what’s noted, I’ve always been more productive of an evening and have been since a child. It’s not limited to me and there seems to be some genetic component. My mother, grandmother, aunts etc. All night owls, and all of us averaging 6-7 hours of sleep at best.

Regardless of what’s occurred before hand, my brain seems to kick into some higher gear at around 9-10pm. Like there is a noticeable change in my energy/cognitive capabilities.

Ironically, the only time this has ever deviated was two months I spent in Russia where for the first time in my life, I adapted almost instantly to what one might call a “normal” sleep schedule. As soon as I returned to my own time zone, it reverted back to me being a night owl again.

I’ve given up attempting to work around it and simply moved to a role that can accomodate it. It’s been huge for my physical and mental health to end the 30 odd years I’ve spent fighting what seems to be a natural schedule for me.

2four2• 2 years ago

Disagree. I'm a night owl, and I work best with bustle around. Silence is eerie and distracting. I would keep the tv on when studying late into the night and I worked best in groups.

tensor2• 2 years ago

Nah. As a night owl myself it’s simply that I have trouble falling asleep due to an overactive mind. Add two hours or more of rolling around and instead of getting up at 7 I’m getting up at 9.

And before someone chimes in with sleep advice, please don’t. I’ve tried it all. Some rings help a bit but at the end of the day nothing makes enough of a difference. I just need those two hours my feet to the point when I can sleep.

Also no, going to bed before everyone else is not an option. I’m not giving up having a social life.

baxtr• 2 years ago

That’s me! But instead of going to bed late, I also try to get up very early to have the silent environment you describe.

So seeing the other comments disagreeing maybe what you’re describing is a different kind of night owl…

nfw2• 2 years ago

I personally find daylight itself to be "distracting" -- like that basic sensory input alone consumes some non-trivial amount of cognitive energy. I much prefer to think in a dark space. I've never met anyone IRL who relates to this though.

dukeofdoom2• 2 years ago

I found that a basement is a good substitute during the day. Reduced noise, distraction and no sunlight which often changes intensity every time a cloud rolls by.

nkmnz5• 2 years ago

Owls could have the same amount of productive focus time in the early morning before everyone else starts to distract them - the reason they chose not to do that is mostly due to chronobiology, which is determined by genes, not social constructs like "lunch time".

semiinfinitely• 2 years ago

Am I reading this correctly from table 2 that the highest magnitude correlation is never drinking alcohol, which is a negative correlation.

yobert• 2 years ago

I bet this is not because alcohol is good for you in any way, but because being intelligent is related to being eager to try new things.

theclansman2• 2 years ago

I knew that smoking crack meant I was smart

yobbo• 2 years ago

Furthermore, drinking weekly seems better than monthly.

But frequency doesn't mean much unless we know amounts. For example, small amounts weekly could be benefiting social relations and regulating things like anxiety. Binging monthly might not give these benefits.

Weirdly, BMI seems to have almost zero effect.

__rito__• 2 years ago

"BMI seems to have almost zero effect."

Seeing how chubby Jon von Neumann was, this should be trivial. ;)

brational• 2 years ago

Furthermore, drinking weekly seems better than monthly.

Would seem to potentially imply more routine social activity / community.

piker3• 2 years ago

A hunch would be that alcohol abstinence is strongly correlated with religious fundamentalism which is correlated with lower income and cognition.

kelthuzad• 2 years ago

Before we rush to conclusions and make up just-so stories, note this passage from the research:

"The relationship between cognitive function and lifestyle factors such as alcohol consumption and smoking proved complex. Individuals who abstained from alcohol showed lower cognitive scores than those who consumed alcohol, conflicting with previous research[1] that has connected moderate drinking with cognitive impairment"

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-so_story

[1] Topiwala A, Allan CL, Valkanova V, et al. Moderate alcohol consumption as risk factor for adverse brain outcomes and cognitive decline: longitudinal cohort study. BMJ 2017;357:j2353.

graemep• 2 years ago

its an interesting idea, but its very complex because of varying attitudes to alcohol within and between religions.

It is interesting that fundamentalists tend to be anti-alcohol across religions with different attitudes in mainstream believers (say Christianity that commonly uses alcohol in religious rites and hose founder's first miracle was to give people alcohol, Buddhism, and Islam which is clearly anti-alcohol).

I think that means you are onto something in that there is an important correlation there. Not sure it is as simple as lower income (there are lots of rich fundamentalists of all religions) or cognition. Personality traits or associated cultural factors more likely?

jajko2• 2 years ago

A hunch would be that alcohol abstinence is strongly correlated with religious fundamentalism which is correlated with lower income and cognition.

It seems you are pointing to second largest religion in the world - islam. It covers over 2 billions of people. They largely don't drink not because they are fundamentalists, they just follow basic premises of their religion. And my various travels to various countries with them being either majority or minority its extremely common, even when they resettle ie to Europe. There are also completely dry countries in North africa for example, they are not full of religious fundamentalists.

Please educate yourself about the world a bit before making such harsh and discriminating statements, they have no place on this forum.

mckirk3• 2 years ago

I wonder if they tried to correct for 'exercise intensity' for that, because (fun fact), exercising regularly is negatively correlated with regularly taking all kinds of drugs -- except for alcohol, where the correlation is apparently positive [1].

[1] https://www.outsideonline.com/health/exercise-alcohol-resear...

dukeofdoom2• 2 years ago

Not sure about the study. But I've watched some fitness you tubers, I mean the real deal ones, that train for a specific sport. And they obsess with their sleep as much if not more than their training. Using bands and watches to track the quality of their sleep. Very important for recovery and training, at elite levels.

One theory is that sleep, is a time when the brain cleans itself. If the theory is correct, maybe missing one cleaning is not detrimental. But continued, it will lead to performance decreases. Not just sports. But mental ability.

beezlebroxxxxxx• 2 years ago

The relationship between sleep quality and recovery is pretty well known in exercise circles. A lot of "amateur" elites, like very competitive marathon runners that take it quite serious around a day job, have to work in long low intensity cardio workouts around their schedules, so you start thinking very hard about recovery. When you think about recovery that hard you also start prioritizing sleep a lot, especially if you're up at 4am for a 2 hour run, for example.

Missing a lot of sleep for successive days is almost guaranteed to lead to injury when you're training very hard. The effect on your cardio performance (even just average BPM) can be stark. I don't know how some resident doctors, for example, can also be very good marathon runners. Just managing that sleep schedule must be crazy.

roshankhan282• 2 years ago

i found one thing helpful. if you drink coffee and then sleep immediately , i got a better sleep. it acted as good as melatonin gummies. anyone like me out there? is it normal? or am i addicted?

pjerem• 2 years ago

That’s called a power nap. But you have to be a good sleeper in the first place. If you are not able to fall asleep before the caffeine kicks in, you’ll have a pretty different night/nap.

kraftman• 2 years ago

Do you have ADHD? I read once that for normal people caffiene pushes dopamine levels too high, and stops them from sleeping, but for people with ADHD caffeine can push dopamine levels from too low to normal, calming them and helping with sleep.

lagniappe• 2 years ago

I do, nicotine works this way for me.

roshankhan282• 2 years ago

I dont really have ADHD, but one time on nat geo channel i saw this video where they test two people , they were supposed to not sleep. after 12 hours they both were given coffee, one was allowed to sleep 30 mins, other was not . the one who had a nap recovered really well but the others conditioned worsened and he went to sleep even tho he didnt wanted to, his body gave up.

Dr_Birdbrain• 2 years ago

I have heard of people who say creatine helps them sleep. Creatine is technically not a stimulant, but in most people it causes a state of mental activation that would make it hard to sleep. I suspect you and the people who sleep better on creatine may have something in common.

nkmnz5• 2 years ago

This is funny. I started mixing ~3g of creatine into my morning coffee a couple of weeks ago. I never thought of it being stimulating or activating, but it's certainly possible: I usually don't stick long enough to things like this to form a habit, but my brain seems to nudge me into keeping up with it...

pch00• 2 years ago

if you drink coffee and then sleep immediately

Alas, being of a certain age means that any kind of liquid before bed will result in an early-hours wakeup to relieve the bladder - negating any potential sleep benefits :(

rzmmm• 2 years ago

How much caffeine you consume on average? Some might get withdrawal symptoms asleep if the intake is very high.

reedf1• 2 years ago

So some studies show a positive correlation on cognitive performance and some negative correlation for "morningness" and "eveningness".

The obvious conclusion to me is that there is no strong effect. Or that at some portions of the year, or parts of the globe, certain chronotypes have advantages, this certainly matches my anecdotal experience.

energy123• 2 years ago

Even if there was a strong correlation, it doesn't follow that you can improve your cognitive performance by fighting against your natural chronotype.

nkmnz5• 2 years ago

To the contrary. It's possible that the correlation is caused solely by a culture that raises owls as larks, "dumbing down" the latter with individuals maladapted to the lark life style. The effect could be increased by smarter owls being able to resist the conversion therapy a little better than less smarter owls – resulting in a selection bias.

comfortabledoug• 2 years ago

All these weird comments about alcohol abstinence...must be a religious fundamentalist, must be an ex-alcoholic, etc. I have a drink maybe 5-10 times per year, and I'm not actively trying to abstain. It tastes gross, and I'm not drawn to it. Why is it so hard for some people to understand that alcohol isn't appealing to everyone?

bell-cot3• 2 years ago

Why is it so hard...?

Stupid (cognitively easy) stereotypes, backed by "everybody's gotta drink!" machismo/insecurity/conformist culture, backed by "all the people I know" (who aren't silenced by stereotypes and peer pressure) experience, backed by decade after decade of massive advertising by the alcohol industry (and adjacent industries).

piker3• 2 years ago

We're just hypothesizing why at the population level abstinence from alcohol might not actually cause cognitive decline as (somewhat) implied by the data. Don't take it personally.

ziggyzecat8• 2 years ago

You mean why abstinence isn't causing better cognitive performance, right, RIGHT?

Obviously the study result is BS. Because if the the same people, drinkers with higher than their abstinent peers cognitive scores, didn't drink, their performance would be THE SAME.

But it's impossible to find out. They should totally continue to study all that, tho. Maybe at some point in the future we can cut people open alive and look properly inside, fuck around & find out, and then close them up and send them back to work again.

ziggyzecat8• 2 years ago

I assume because technical people would think something like:

- there are tens of thousand drinks on the planet,

- all with their different nuances in how they alter mood and thinking patterns.

Not appealing just can't be true except if you 'score' low in novelty seeking/curiosity ... except if you were only exposed to bad drunks and pathetic alcoholics ...

Something like that. But it might also be because marketers see people like you as a challenge, a trophy to collect, and the non-marketing types just want to 'seduce' you.

They do the same to babies and minors all the time. "Say this or that, do this or that." And BAM, some brain cells practically useless forever.

foobiekr2• 2 years ago

"all with their different nuances in how they alter mood and thinking patterns"

This is honestly not true unless you are including absinthe. Ethanol is the only active ingredient and it has one of the most well understood dose-response curves and one of the most heavily studied effects. The rest is all in your head.

There just isn't that much to the alcohol, it's very one note, moreso than any psychedelic, moreso than even smoking (where dose control significantly varies the effects) or even cannabis which is also relatively one note.

TeMPOraL• 2 years ago

[I] must be a religious fundamentalist, must be an ex-alcoholic, etc.

Personally, no. Statistically, yes, at least enough for the difference to affect a study like this. That's the point of those comments.

theclansman2• 2 years ago

I've always found weird how people draw conclusions from small correlations, specially when other studies show the opposite result. They call it hypothesis, but weirdly enough these conclusions often coincide with their world view. Look at that, now I'm the one drawing conclusions, must be human nature to try to make sense of things. But what I've found is that often reality is counter intuitive, and that's more fun.

mattgreenrocks3• 2 years ago

I’m in my early 40s. My ability to metabolize alcohol took a steep nosedive a few years ago. I love a great marg/old fashioned/IPA, but I will feel depressed the next day no matter what. I’ve tried electrolyte supplementation, eating a lot, eating “right,” drinking a lot of water, etc.

My body has a hard time with it. So it’s rare that I seek it out. A small container of sake early in the evening might be my indulgence from now on.

mactavish88• 2 years ago

I’m about to hit 40, and I’ve had this exact same experience. Even a single beer, shot of whiskey or glass of wine will leave me feeling depressed for at least a day afterwards.

For me it seems to correlate with having had COVID back in 2021, where prior to that I could still have 2-3 drinks and feel okay the next day. My suspicion/intuition is that it has something to do with a shift in my gut microbiome - from what I understand, alcohol can very easily disrupt one’s microbiome, and the state of my microbiome seems to have a significant influence on my mood.

I haven’t missed the alcohol though. It’s actually been a blessing for my general health and wellbeing.

criddell3• 2 years ago

My experience is similar. I can tolerate at most one cocktail, glass of wine, or beer (although I'll go malty over hoppy every time). One positive is that because of this limitation, I think I enjoy the drinks I do have a lot more.

A change that came along with this is some kind of sensitivity to sugar. I love candy and baked goods. A short stack of pancakes with maple syrup and berries is the best, but that kind of carb bomb can leave me feeling almost hungover.

littlecranky67• 2 years ago

Same here. Quit alcohol when I turned 40, the side-effects the next day of even 1-2 beers were not making it worth the buzz during drinking. Sleep issues, less focus and concentration, weaker performance in the gym, anxiety the next day etc. etc. It became a no brainer to simply stop drinking. To those with better ability to metabolize alcohol, cheers to you.

XorNot• 2 years ago

Post-30 I found any amount of alcohol I really noticed the next day and concluded it just wasn't worth it anymore.

arichard123• 2 years ago

I had a similar thing until I stopped eating a certain brand of muesli. A different brand with seemingly the same ingredients was fine. I think it's something to do with processing of dried fruit. I believe there was some reaction between that and the alcohol I consumed later in the day. I only realised it was breakfast related on holiday and my breakfast habits changed. I found drinking to be consequence free as opposed to 1/2 a pint causing a certain headache the next afternoon. I experimented when I got home and completely solved my problem.

I was also in my early 40s when this happened for what that's worth.

Eumenes• 2 years ago

I'm a similar age and also a heavy drinker (15-25 drinks per week) but also run 40-50 miles per week + 5000-7000 feet of vert per week. My friends/family are astonished that I can crush 10 beers in an evening and run 15 miles the next morning w/o food. I suspect metabolism has alot to do with it.

taeric4• 2 years ago

How much of that is your ability to metabolize dropped, versus the strength of common drinks has sky rocketed? Especially mentioning IPAs. It is not uncommon to find them in the 9% range. I remember drinking a ton of Guinness back in the day. Highly amused to find that that would be considered a light beer today.

nicholasjarnold• 2 years ago

There is some new evidence that changes occur at various stages in our lives, specifically one in the early-to-mid forties, that can affect things like alcohol metabolism[0][1]. I find this type of thing and the "epigenetic clock" research to be pretty fascinating to read about now that I'm approaching mid-life myself.

[0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/drastic-molecular...

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s43587-024-00692-2

bityard3• 2 years ago

For me, the type of drink makes a huge difference the older I get.

I used to like wine, but the older I got, the more I started noticing having a terrible hangover the next day, even if it wasn't enough to get actually drunk or even buzzed. Type/brand of wine didn't seem to matter. But whiskey or vodka mixed with soda, no problem.

Insanity• 2 years ago

I feel like nowadays it is more socially acceptable to say you don’t drink than even just 10 years ago.

I can’t recall the last time I was asked “why” after telling someone I don’t drink. All in all, I was fortunate that during university a close friend of mine also didn’t drink. Being the “odd one out” seems harder than being the “odd pair out” lol.

edit: culture plays a role as well in how acceptable it is. I’m from a country that is heavy on alcohol usage though (Belgium).

kenjackson• 2 years ago

In the US it’s far more acceptable. I don’t drink and while I’ve been offered, no one ever pushes back. And I’ve never had problems being the only one at parties who didn’t.

foobiekr2• 2 years ago

A lot of people confuse the secondary effects of alcohol (basically, mostly, social permission) with the primary effects. Most developed countries have purged almost all ritual from their cultures, which means that there aren't really occasions for people to experiment with their behavior - and it provides air cover for engaging in riskier behaviors - and so alcohol provides the outlet for them.

Alcohol is one of the most boring psychoactive experiences there is, it's the safest, the most predictable and the most repeatable. There's nothing challenging about it - happy drunks are going to be happy drunks, angry/emotional drunks are going to be angry/emotional drunks, people who use the context of alcohol to excuse behaviors that they feel they would otherwise be judged for (promiscuity, "I love you guys! no I really do!", etc. etc.) are doing just that. The only drug with more predictability than alcohol is caffeine, with the common opiates being next in line for being absolutely predictable - do X get Y.

Alcohol is boring. Even pot or tobacco are more interesting, but they lack the social context that provides behavioral permissibility which is really what drives the ritual-lite use - going drinking on the weekend.

taeric4• 2 years ago

So, I could get behind a lot of the idea you are pushing here. But, I question whether you have evidence to back it up?

For one, to claim that most developed countries have purged ritual feels more like you are referring to some specific rituals. Or have amusing cuts on what you consider developed countries.

You also sort of undercut yourself by noting that alcohol hits people in different, if repeatable ways; but you seem to think that will not be true for other drugs? From my experience, I would expect the same for pot. Tobacco, I confess I never really saw it impact anyone. Outside of getting them addicted.

Simply stated, why do you think you would not see such variability of how other items impact people?

lostemptations5• 2 years ago

Alcohol is one of the most STANDARDIZED substances on the planet. 5% at 500 mil is always going to be the same amount of alcohol. Of course it's going to be predictable and socially acceptable. Try doing any other drug and you have no clue what you're getting, even if you get it from the the same source time and time again.

The predictability is a FEATURE. And btw, it's not boring at all.

You are conflating boring with predictable.

sn92• 2 years ago

Safe compared to meth maybe but not compared to caffeine.

Setting aside alcohol addiction, the costs of alcohol abuse to your health (e.g., brain damage, liver disease, etc.), and the risk of killing yourself by drinking too much in a sitting, there's also the way it drastically increases the risk of drunk driving and domestic violence.

I'm not saying we should ban it or anything, but we should not be underplaying the very real risks and costs associated with it.

notfed• 2 years ago

Alcohol is...the safest [psychoactive drug]

Yeah, no. According to CDC data, more than 150,000 people die from excessive alcohol consumption per year [1], which is about how many people died of heroin overdoses in the past 20 years [2].

By and large, the labels "safe" or "dangerous" are subjective and highly cultural, at least when it comes to substances.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/facts-stats/index.html

[2] https://www.cdc.gov/overdose-prevention/about/heroin.html

colechristensen• 2 years ago

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that alcohol isn't appealing to everyone?

People often don't understand that not everyone experiences a thing the same way. That what it's like for you isn't the same as what it's like for me.

People think you experience alcoholic beverages exactly the same as they do and don't understand why you dislike them as a result.

bityard3• 2 years ago

You are fortunate. There are many alcoholics who would trade anything to switch places with you. Probably a lot of the responses are from people who have seen how destructive alcohol can be when used in excess.

I grew up in a blue-collar rural area where alcoholism wasn't just common, it was flat-out normal. Anyone who could get away with nursing a beer or 12 the whole day long and not get fired, usually did. My dad drank a lot and it caused a ton of problems with his marriage (leading to divorce) but at least he wasn't abusive.

I am also somewhat lucky in that I never could acquire a taste for beer. Based on my family history and upbringing, I could have very easily slid into alcoholism otherwise. I'll never know for sure, but to keep even the possibility at bay, I have two hard rules: no drinking during the day and no drinking the night before work or having to be somewhere the next day.

coldtea2• 2 years ago

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that alcohol isn't appealing to everyone?

Because it does appear to appeal to 90% of the population

ziggyzecat8• 2 years ago

This is one of those funny studies that looks at so much but then falls short to realize one thing: How well a person can breathe through their nose and the side effects of not being able to do that on nervous system, beginning with facial muscles, neck muscles and so on ... there's also a direct relationship of all that on the prefrontal cortex.

I admit tho, that I never checked if there are studies like that. If only I could travel backwards in time .......

mckirk3• 2 years ago

I pretty definitely can't breath through my nose as well as I should be able to (deviated septum), and have been wondering for a while how much this actually impacts me. What was your experience like?

op00to3• 2 years ago

Have you had a sleep study done? You may have low oxygen saturation when you sleep. I had literally no symptoms of sleep apnea, no major risk factors, but my body was struggling to breathe when I slept due to my anatomy. I have started CPAP treatment and am excited to see if my cognition improves despite not really feeling bad.

pkaler• 2 years ago

I sleep with Breathe Right strips. It's changed my life. Whoop band and 8Sleep confirm.

ziggyzecat8• 2 years ago

Deviated septum as well, but it's not the only reason for drying mucous membranes, which I never got around to getting checked. In part, it results from nutritional habits, sometimes (still), a bit too much coffee but the amount that causes it varies so it must be something else in one of the underlying metabolisms.

A few weeks ago, I tried Nasal Strips again, and for some reason, they are helping now and the difference is like day and night. I can only assume that it's because I got older and my life style changed, including nutrition, which was really bad when I was young. So dry mucous had too much effect for me to notice the benefits of the nasal strips or it's really just the bigger size of my nose :P

But the biggest change, compared to my young years, is that I am much more resilient to unhealthy stress and not continuously stressed as I was back then, when I was also regularly exposed to stress amplifications without time to recover.

And being able to breathe properly through my nose now amplifies everything for the much much better: mood, psychological resilience, performance --both cognitive and athletic-- time to fall asleep, sleep, with the latter two coming with their own boosts for the next day.

Most notable was the effect on my facial muscles. With the loss of those specific tensions came a direct effect on focus and concentration and self-control, which is all, to a great extent, mediated by the prefrontal cortex.

Aerbil3132• 2 years ago

Just read Breath by James Nestor. You can thank me later. Fellow ran experiments on himself (and monkeys too) on exactly that, mousebreathing vs. nosebreathing. The difference is drastic. Catasthropically drastic.

lazycrazyowl• 2 years ago

So the study shows that night owls and people with flexible sleep patterns might have a slight advantage in terms of cognitive performance implying that it’s not just how much sleep you get, but also when you prefer to sleep that matters for keeping your brain sharp.

mkermani144• 2 years ago

Any TL;DR? It's a long pdf :D

tradertef• 2 years ago

Read the Conclusion section of the paper.

tgtweak• 2 years ago

Great study - I find that anecdotally 7 hours of sleep generally outperforms 8 hours in terms of cognitive function early in the day, but suffers later in the day - likely favored by "morning" people that tend to do more in the beginning of their day.

HarHarVeryFunny• 2 years ago

Brought to you by the "No shit!" journal of scientific studies.

fedeb95• 2 years ago

People in UK should definitely consume alcohol.

Irony apart, my idea (borrowed somewhere I can't remember) is that body functions are too intertwined to just isolate a single variable, or determine a single cause.

People, consume what you want, sleep how you want, and assess what it is that you "want" individually. It's not hard too see if alcohol, sleep deprivation, etc. causes you harm or not.

As for long-range damage or good: look at people who lived long (and healthy).

Sleep duration, chronotype, health and lifestyle factors affect cognition [pdf]

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