The hikikomori in Asia: A life within four walls

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2024/05/world/hikikomori-asia-personal-stories-wellness/

by reqo • 2 years ago

256 328 2 years ago

HPsquared4• 2 years ago

It's definitely happening in the West too. The juice isn't worth the squeeze for a lot of people.

OutOfHere• 2 years ago

Frankly I think it's more sensible than putting up with an unjust system in a rat race that goes nowhere, although eventually one has to get into the work game to survive.

RoboTeddy• 2 years ago

In all the cases in the article it looks like shame plays a big role. I wonder if hikikomori is caused by a loop of [adverse circumstances that cause the person to feel shame] -> withdrawal to avoid shame -> being ashamed of having withdrawn [loop]

enceladus06• 2 years ago

Shame of educational pressure might be causing this, as mentioned in the article. But why do we as society place kids under so much stress? Let kids be kids and learn by exploring.

elmomle• 2 years ago

I'd bet it's because the parents are feeling a lot of stress. Especially without a robust community support network/string external role models, children tend to inherit their parents' emotional states.

esel2k• 2 years ago

As a parent I also thought “I won’t repeat these patterns” but reality is, that is so hard. Often parents want the best for their children and use any possible technique to make sure they are successful.

I am not giving an excuse but rather want to point to our society and our behaviour. When an expat at work asked me yesterday where to move to make sure that his 5 year old will have the best schools of the country… with such an elitist behaviour, I can only facepalm and see this is going to be much worse in the next 5-10years.

Joel_Mckay• 2 years ago

Dr. John B. Calhoun's work with "The Beautiful Ones" may unfortunately generalize to human civilizations:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOFveSUmh9U

causality0• 2 years ago

It's strange. We know that instincts, hormones, and other aspects of our biology have a tremendous influence on our thoughts and behaviors, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of effort to use that to problem-solve. There's evolutionary psychology, but given the fraction of human problems traceable to maladaption to the modern world, one would think "evolutionary anthropo-sociology" would a foundational pillar of science. Like, why doesn't "humans didn't evolve to sleep in a room by themselves at the age of four" carry as much weight as "don't let your kids eat lead paint chips"?

BlarfMcFlarf• 2 years ago

Probably because evolutionary psychology is an incestuous pseudoscience of just-so-stories, small sample sizes, bad extrapolations, non reproducibility etc.

jmyeet2• 2 years ago

People aren't stupid. What we have in the world in general (not just Asia) is a crisis in hopelessness.

People are facing crippling student debt (depending on your country), one bad medical incident away from being homeless, crippling housing costs and wages that barely cover costs such that you need 1-2 "side hustles" just to make ends meet.

It's really no wonder people are checking out. It's also no wonder that people aren't having children either. They simply can't afford to.

One common counterargument to this is that consumer spending is up but that really makes my point: people are spending now instead of saving because they have no future.

anovikov4• 2 years ago

But this all is so evidently untrue!

Stock of accumulated capital is growing healthily which means savings rate is healthy too, even if most of savings is just reinvestment of profits from previous ones.

Consumption of almost everything is growing in real terms too in almost all countries.

GDP keeps growing just about everywhere save for a few most unlucky places like UK.

Even inequality is falling for the first time in decades so the poor people actually see most improvement (especially in the US).

That 'hopelessness' is what people call 'vibecession'. People just taught themselves - probably by going through too much doomscrolling - that things are bad. But they aren't. We are probably living through best times in our lifetime - especially the common folk, poor and working class (some highly educated, high income occupations might be on shaky ground). MAYBE, just maybe, upper middle class is a bit fucked indeed, but this is a small group numerically and hikikomori do not come from there.

I'm glad i'm not on social media but whenever i'm trying to read so-called 'news', i also get depressed for a bit. People are trying to present absolutely everything in the most negative sense possible probably because otherwise it's not clickbait-y enough...

bluefirebrand• 2 years ago

GDP or savings rates don't matter to individuals who are spending all of their money on food and rent

Countries and corporations reporting strong financial health does not help the people who are living paycheck to paycheck

It's very out of touch to suggest otherwise

yoyohello132• 2 years ago

Maybe GDP, consumption, and corporate profits are not correlated to human happiness.

jmyeet2• 2 years ago

Stock of accumulated capital is growing healthily

How are you defining "accumulated capital"? Because in wealth and income terms, inequality has only been growing [1]. Specifically, does accumulated capital include paper gains in housing values of your primary residence? If so, that's misleading.

Housing is a basic need. If you buy a house for $200k and it has gone up in value to $500k, you might say you've accumulated $300k in unrealized capital gains. Thing is, what would you do if you sold it? You'd still have to buy a house somewhere. And if every other house also costs $500k, what have you really gained? You might be paying higher property taxes, higher insurance costs and possibly higher mortgage costs.

Consumption of almost everything is growing in real terms too in almost all countries.

I addressed this. People aren't saving for their future.

GDP keeps growing just about everywhere

And who benefits from that? Let's say your wages have gone up 25% in real terms, where is that money going? If it's just more rent to your landlord, then you'e gained nothing and someone else is simply exploiting more of the value you've created.

Even inequality is falling for the first time in decades

No, it's not. See the link.

We are probably living through best times in our lifetime

By pretty much any objective measure, we peaked in about 1972. Since then real wages have largely stagnated and the quality of life has gone down.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-...

yazzku• 2 years ago

People are facing crippling student debt (depending on your country), one bad medical incident away from being homeless.

Both of these are U.S.

Apocryphon9• 2 years ago

On the other hand, housing being very expensive feels like a universal phenomenon now.

SoftTalker7• 2 years ago

It's an interesting article I don't know why it had to be presented in such a cumbersome graphical style. I tried the trick of changing "www" to "lite" in the URL but it didn't work for this one. I stopped reading about halfway through.

sctb• 2 years ago

This presentation is surely intended to convey a sense of spatiality related to the idea of "A shrinking life". I enjoyed the graphics and photos, and I definitely got a feeling of constriction and isolation that added depth to my reading experience—YMMV.

(The HN guidelines discourage complaints about these sorts of "tangential annoyances", by the way: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

ilaksh• 2 years ago

I think this is really a spectrum and they are focusing on some more extreme aspects of it. But it is definitely not just an Asian thing and I believe to some degree this type of social withdrawal has affected perhaps a very significant portion of our society.

I have definitely been socially isolated my entire life to some degree or another. But much more so in adulthood. Again, I suggest that this is relatively common, not something that happens to only a few million people.

One aspect that is being glossed over is the amount of socialization or let's call it "pseudo-social" activity that is happening over the internet for these people.

I'm someone who generally does not have friends, leaves the apartment literally only a handful of times per month to take the garbage out and maybe buy groceries once or twice a month if I am trying to save money versus Instacart.

For me it comes down to money. I have a health issue that makes me fatigued etc. and don't have money for health insurance. I don't have money to go to restaurants or otherwise waste going out. So I stay home.

Because I'm always in a poor health and financial state, I feel uncomfortable trying to do any "real" socialization.

But I have always been trying one way or another to get to a point where I have a "real" online business that allows me to actually thrive. Such as buying a car and a house, getting health insurance and addressing my health issues, or paying taxes.

But what I have managed so far is usually just enough to scrape by. There have been some minor successes here and there but rarely have I ever felt like I had enough to truly meet my basic needs such as the health concerns or financial stability.

Anyway, I think it's easy to get in a position with health and financial challenges, maybe just a series of low-paying contracts, where some degree of social isolation is just practical and realistic.

antegamisou• 2 years ago

I'm sorry for what you've been through and I hope your health gets better. However I believe you've phrased the following a bit poorly, although I'm sure unintentionally:

    some degree of social isolation is just practical and realistic.

Unfortunately this leads to connotations that encourage people completely out of touch with the ordinary person's lifestyle (billionaires, CEOs etc.) make outrageous claims and dictating how they should navigate life with minimum wage and no insurance e.g. that CEO who said skip breakfast to save money, or HN's favorites that we should just shut up and be content with modern tech automating our creative abilities instead of assisting us with menial tasks.

Instead if you had written social isolation is inevitable without controlled financial and health stability, you'd be 100% spot on.

Human, social isolation and practical/realistic just don't fit together.

card_zero6• 2 years ago

Escaping something that's inevitable is not practical or realistic.

FormerBandmate• 2 years ago

we should just shut up and be content with modern tech automating our creative abilities instead of assisting us with menial tasks

This isn’t true. Dalle and ChatGPT are assists, they don’t really replace anything and make being creative more accessible. AI also helps with tons of menial tasks like code syntax

monero-xmr• 2 years ago

There are emotional and mental support groups, churches, community events, and all manner of things you can do for free that may help break your isolation. It takes effort to do this. I know you are struggling, but ultimately no one will help you but yourself, which is a hard pill to swallow.

tempaccount4202• 2 years ago

Yet in this article, they were helped without needing to reach out first (a crucial part for a socially withdrawn person). American/European society just chooses to ignore and not help the same kind of people here.

chasil2• 2 years ago

I live in Iowa, and I had a roommate who just stopped going to work one day.

I learned after talking to her that she had done this before. In talking to her, it seemed to me a mix of anxiety and depression with a focus on agoraphobia.

Her family from several hundred miles came to retrieve her when they contacted me. She asked to move back in later, but I declined. I saw her start a new career some years afterwards.

I don't know if the "laying flat/tang ping" movement in China, or the issues of the people in the article, are completely separate from this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_ping

wholemodern3• 2 years ago

the laying flat movement has mostly to do with lack of jobs/opportunity for young people.

- there's a societal trend to not hire people over the age of 30-35 in China. after months of looking for work, they've given up

- there's an unofficial 70% youth unemployment rate, and with 12 million new grads each year and intense competition for government work, sometimes hundred of applicants for a single stable government spot, the new grads give up

- the young generation has realized that no house/car/marriage/kid (没房没车没妻子) is a good way to live, and there's no pressure on them to create a life. so they lay flat. thus the abysmal marriage/child rate in China, which is near the bottom of world ranking

- the new grads don't want to work in a factory, day or night shift, for $2/hour.

- if the workers are in 1st tier cities, they can barely save up any money working and living there, due to the recent 50% reduction in wages ($1000/month -> $500/month) and increased spending on necessities. so it's easier for them to just not work and live off of parents.

ii41• 2 years ago

tang ping is just an internet slang. Didn't expect it to have a wikipedia page.

In China, the "normal" is "to try to be the best". For example, less than half of Chinese students can make it into a "good college" (in China there's a very specific definition of a "good college"), but if you didn't make it, like more than 50% of your peers, that's enough to say that you're "bad at studying".

tang ping basically means quiting this kind of culture and accepting that one's normal. Buying a house and settling down in a city that's not Beijing or Shanghai, like 90% of people do.

It has nothing to do with social withdrawal.

refurb• 2 years ago

These people have always existed. In the 20th century we just called them “shut-ins”. People who socially isolate themselves.

As kids there would be the old run down house with an older man or lady who would rarely be seen. They would be dressed shabbily, and the house would be poorly maintained but livable.

Anotheroneagain3• 2 years ago

Those people have completely taken over the west. You suffer alone in hopeless isolation if you are not like them. It isn't that you somehow didn't succeed - the majority simply prefers to be alone. Only the fact that the majority is "individualist" like this makes it much less obvious.

underlipton11• 2 years ago

"Money" has also generally been the issue for me. Not simply the money to get to and enjoy activities. The money to meet (sometimes unrealistic) expectations of physical presentation (including clothing, grooming, the time and energy and diet required to work out) and therefore feel comfortable among people who will judge you for it - including, crucially and as a black man, authorities. The money to keep up with friends who might want to do things you didn't necessarily budget for. The money to feel comfortable with all of this while managing other necessary expenses (including, for some, supporting family).

When I had a job, I definitely didn't have the money for all of this, particularly while living in a hoity-toity resort town (and particularly when it became much more hoity and toity and white during the summer). Making rent was much easier (read: possible) when I just went home every day.

I have some other thoughts, particularly about how the modern job market makes it more difficult for young people to build durable relationships at work (which, as much as legal might abhor it, is indeed one of the avenues through which many young people make friends). Might edit/reply later with those. Suffice it to say, when layoffs disrupt the already imperiled process, you end up with a lot of people entering their late 20s/early 30s with social lives that are exceedingly fragile, if they're even extant.

orhmeh09• 2 years ago

this is a good post about topics people don't discuss enough. thank you for sharing.

pastage• 2 years ago

Money vs. Time. If you need too much money to even be able to socialize that only leads to misery. The best way to socialize is to do projects on your free time with other people, there will always be some who are too tired to work much in their spare time and that is ok as long as you are invested. The big lie is that everyone is a Millionaire and that you have to spend money to socialize. Workers unions have historically in Europe and the US tried to create places where people could socialize without having to spend money. That is something I took advantage of and lent my time to as a young adult, I should spend more money on that now that I have it.

Xeyz0r6• 2 years ago

At some point, I became so angry with this feeling that I stopped caring about what people would think of me altogether. However, this was somewhat destructive for me. Eventually, I seeked help.

paulpauper• 2 years ago

America has this too. It's homelessness. The drug abuse and mental illness makes it worse though. Unlike the comparably docile hikikomori, drug and alcohol use leads to erratic and aggressive behavior and makes accommodations and treatment impossible, hence homelessness.

gibbitz• 2 years ago

100% this. I think the reason we see these people homeless in the US is due to the myth of the self-sufficiency. That if you can't succeed or fit in it's because you are deficient in some way. It makes it hard to ask for help and it's doubly so if you are introverted to this extreme.

Xeyz0r6• 2 years ago

Homelessness is the scariest thing for me. And actually I know that in many cases you became one without your actual influence on it. This problem breaks my heart.

Perenti• 2 years ago

I know where you're coming from. Chronic ill health can be a really isolated life. I get out once per fortnight to the supermarket, once per month to the pharmacy, once per 6 months to my GP. Other than that I get away from home maybe once every 2 or 3 months.

I've had people say they'd go mad living my life. Well when your body works against you you just have to suck it up and deal with it.

As for friends, I have very few because I'm angry all the time. Being alone helps not face charges.

anovikov4• 2 years ago

If their parents are not doing anything about it when it's their direct responsibility, how can anyone expect anyone else to fix it? If the culture allows for this, the problem is with the culture.

HPsquared4• 2 years ago

It's hard to change another person's mind.

anovikov4• 2 years ago

In America, they'd be kicked out of home as soon as they turned 16. In Russia, they'd be just beaten up by their dads. Probably badly and regularly.

They do it because they can. Key is to make it impossible and force them to take up productive activities. No one in adult age should be kept at home funded by their parents unless it's short term with definite plan to fix it, or they are seriously disabled.

Of course, when it's about schoolchildren, it's different. Serious psychiatric help is needed. It's again parents' fault for not providing it.

marcyb5st2• 2 years ago

From my personal experience (I also went through a very dark period in my life and just recently climbed out of the hole I dug myself) I guess people are realizing that working hard won't get you anything close to what previous generations had. Once that settles in it's hard to push yourself to do basically anything.

Additionally, I also believe that feeling is compounded by social media where selection bias only shows you cherry picked moments where it seems other people are living the life you won't get.

Finally, among the younger generations there is a lot of climate change dread going around.

For me it was a combination of all these factors and to this day I can't pinpoint exactly what was the trigger, but after COVID lockdowns I simply kept social distancing.

SoftTalker7• 2 years ago

People just have no historical reference.

Think times are tough now? Try the great depression.

Worried about climate change? In the 1980s it was nuclear war.

People living paycheck to paycheck, barely scraping by? Media glorifying the rich and famous? Nothing new.

ajkjk2• 2 years ago

Yet the new struggles are real too? explaining them away as more of the same does nothing. There are old problems and there are new problems and they're both problems.

marcyb5st2• 2 years ago

Perhaps, but back in the days you weren't exposed 24/7 to all of that (IMHO).

itronitron3• 2 years ago

user name does not check out

silverquiet5• 2 years ago

Then perhaps there is no issue to worry about here.

ryandrake4• 2 years ago

Worried about climate change? In the 1980s it was nuclear war.

During the Cold War, they were at least telling kids (at least in the USA) that the nuclear holocaust might be avoidable "if clear heads prevail," or "if we beat the Russians," or "if they back down." There was at least hope. With Climate Change, we've told two entire generations of kids that there is no hope, it's inevitable and irreversible, and that there is no way to avoid catastrophe. So is it any surprise they're all doomers when it comes to Climate? If you tell everyone that everything is hopeless, then don't be surprised when a few conclude that it really is hopeless.

krisoft2• 2 years ago

In the 1980s it was nuclear war

As opposed to now when it is nuclear war and climate change? :)

globalnode• 2 years ago

well thats unhelpful, diminishing the concerns of people by implying: "back in my day we all had it tougher", just doesnt help and its just not true, back in the day it was a "different" tough but no less or more real than what people are experiencing now.

Starlevel004• 2 years ago

Worried about climate change? In the 1980s it was nuclear war.

Nuclear war didn't happen. Climate change is happening. Pretty key difference!

doktrin2• 2 years ago

Your observation is neither novel nor helpful. People suffering are often not suffering due to a lack of information, or because they’ve never taken middle school history.

Animats• 2 years ago

The article reports this happening in countries that are quite comfortable at the moment and have strong safety nets. This isn't being reported from Venezuela or Ukraine or even Poland or the UK.

China has something else - the "lying flat" movement.[1][2] This is just "dropping out", something China is now rich enough to allow. It's not about isolation, just not working much.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/03/world/asia/china-slackers...

[2] https://www.scmp.com/news/people-culture/trending-china/arti...

luzojeda• 2 years ago

Worried about climate change? In the 1980s it was nuclear war.

Yet they could afford _homes_. One of the most important things any human can have. A place to feel safe, call home, not be afraid month after month that your landlord will raise rent by 50% or 100% leaving you on the streets with all the stress that comes afterwards, etc.

Also we have that now as well. We are at the risk of a total war between China, Russia, USA, EU, India, etc. all with nuclear weapons. We have the worst of both worlds.

robotnikman• 2 years ago

I would say nuclear war is unfortunately back on the table again considering the current conflicts going on.

everdrive• 2 years ago

Well, I think whether or not people objectively had it worse or better is sort of beside the point. How well did people deal with adversity before? Are people lacking something now which is making them less resilient, and less capable of connecting? I'm not sure what the precise answers to those questions are, but it feels like folks are generally doing worse from a mental health perspective. That's a problem to solve just like the "real" problems of the world.

thegrim33• 2 years ago

I don't understand at all. Because you (in my opinion, erroneously) believe that you need to work some X% harder than the last generation to accomplish the same thing you're just not going to try?

What about pretty much every generation prior to the last, who had to toil in hard labor most days, who often didn't have indoor plumbing, who often didn't even have electricity, who went off to war, did they have any easier time being "successful" than you? Did they just give up and not try? Do you honestly believe you're worse off in 2024 than they were? That you're working harder than they were?

I'm not even going to touch the climate dread stuff as climate change is a topic that can not be impartially discussed anymore.

yoyohello132• 2 years ago

So what’s the difference between the past and now? Maybe having corporations profiting off of people’s attention and fear is not a good thing.

krisoft2• 2 years ago

I don’t think you are saying the same thing.

You are saying this;

you need to work some X% harder than the last generation to accomplish the same thing

And this is the contrasting bit from the comment you are responding:

working hard won't get you anything close to what previous generations had

The difference is that your sentence says they have to work harder to achieve the same, while their comment says that even if they work hard they can’t achieve the same. That is two very different things.

raindeer2• 2 years ago

The reason that ppl give up now is not that it is worse now than before, but rather the opposite. Now you can do almost nothing productive and still survive. Before, you would simply starve to death.

tristor• 2 years ago

I guess people are realizing that working hard won't get you anything close to what previous generations had.

I hear this a lot. It’s also untrue. If you are open to anecdata, it’s trivial to prove this is untrue.

What people constantly miss and fail to consider is what they are working hard at. Hard work is a requirement for success and class mobility, but it is not sufficient. You must also work hard at the right things.

The truest thing I have learned about life is that you need to do three things to be successful:

1. Identify places where you can add value /for people who can compensate you/.

2. Learn how to articulate the value you add.

3. Ensure you get compensation for that value added.

If you do these three things, your hard work will pay off, maybe in a big way.

softsound2• 2 years ago

#2-3 is where I would say the majority of people get stuck. I sure have, I volunteer to help people whenever I can but that doesn't mean I'll get paid or compensated for it. Not that I mind but I can get burnt out.

#1 can really be hard when #2-3 never seems to come into the picture for long. It can make anything you do seem like a waste of time. Can you add value, sure, is it worth it? That's where it can be tough.

I think a problem with a lot of this too is lack of real long term community too. But I think some people are just better at managing that naturally.

fxtentacle• 2 years ago

My pet theory is that social media isn't the problem, the always-on surveillance created by smartphones is.

When I was in university, we had nude parties. I'm pretty sure nobody would risk that nowadays. That cherry-picking you mentioned goes both for highs and lows. In this day and age, you always need to plan for your worst moment to end up in someone's picture. The ubiquity of cameras has made everyday living more risky in the sense that you're constantly at risk of losing social standing over insignificant mistakes.

forinti2• 2 years ago

My grandfather said there were such parties when he was young. That would have been 1930s-1940s. And what's even more crazy is that this was in the countryside in Portugal.

yterdy• 2 years ago

It's a double-edged sword. Without that ubiquity, 4 years ago today, George Floyd would have just been known as a junkie who slipped a fake bill and had a heart attack, if he was known at all. Instead, we were able to see with our own eyes what actually happened.

There is certainly a hammer/nail aspect to the issue (which is itself one of degrees), but I do think that part of the blame that gets put on the technology and its use lies more correctly with the society that makes judgments off of that use's outputs. Ideally, in a functional society, no one would bat an eyelash at coeds sharing platonic nakey time.

rustcleaner3• 2 years ago

Pumping M1 and M2 at a continuously compounding 7% CAGR is making Thomas Jefferson's prediction come true.

underlipton11• 2 years ago

The on-ramps for fulfilling activity (not even necessarily jobs) are disappearing. If you want to learn something new, you're not looking at a nominal fee at a local community college; maybe the suggestion is to watch (flawed, unfinished) tutorials on YouTube, or to buy a creative influencer's course pack. Maybe that gets you basic skills, maybe you waste your time. But let's assume you picked up [skill]. Someone's probably not going to hire you for it. Do you try to make something by yourself? Here's the list of other skills you should probably pick up in order to compete (yes, you're competing) with the wunderkids who can produce [project], and also the associated devlog and Patreon and streaming schedule. Or, maybe you try to join an existing project that needs your [skill]. That's going to be a decent amount of time lurking the Discord, trying to keep up with a group of people who might not even like you because you're the weird new guy. If the goal is prosocial socialization outside of the house, this might be counterproductive.

Did I mention that the increasing focus on "problem-solving," driven by the tech Cult of Productivity, seems to have predisposed people to the kind of skepticism and pessimism that makes finding problems to solve easier?

Or, you could just... not.

Have problem
Don't care.
Don't have problem anymore.

hammyhavoc2• 2 years ago

Can relate.

fennecbutt• 2 years ago

I think also in men there's the expectation of being a provider as your only role in life, and the fork in the road is either this (reclusion) or unfortunately suicide (apparently work and financial pressures are 2/3rds of reasons for men's suicides).

I've had friends go like that, it's not nice. But the saddest thing is that it happens and the n we all just kind of...move on somehow?

Ozzie_osman• 2 years ago

I know everyone is different, and saying things like "just get a job" or "just go outside" are easy to say and very hard to do when you're stuck in that type of loop. But, I will say, things that I've found will help are having some purpose (work, taking care of someone or a pet, anything), exercise (even walking outdoors), and even just getting your biological clock where you wake up and get exposed to sunlight (vs sleeping all day and staying up all night).

Getting enough activation energy to do any of those things is difficult, but I've found that if you can muster it, it can help break the cycle.

HPsquared4• 2 years ago

It's a bit like refloating a sunken ship.

itronitron3• 2 years ago

Yeah, it's much easier for me to leave the house when it's a situation in which I don't need to care about the potential of other people's opinions. Running quick errands, walking the dog, etc.

For some reason taking out the recycling is a heavier lift for me mentally due to the risk of chaos with the bins, potential for bags breaking, bins being full, etc. even though there is less social interaction than grocery shopping.

nanomonkey• 2 years ago

Honestly, my dog is my savior. I take her to the park every evening. This gets me out into the evening sun, walking, and around like-minded people. The fact that I can interact with a group of people without scheduling an "event" is great. We just show up. For me it's mostly the other dogs (puppy therapy), but it's nice to exchange a few words and talk to someone about their day while the dogs run around.

The two mile walk to the lake is also key. I find a morning stretch and kettle bell routine, and an evening walk keeps me mentally and physically in tune. And it's practically free, unlike modern healthcare.

BeFlatXIII2• 2 years ago

Not to mention that "getting the job" is often far more difficult and/or stressful than doing the job or showing up to work or being seen by others on your commute. No one wants to admit how much talent is wasted due to the job application & interview processes.

itronitron3• 2 years ago

The social home is a great idea and I am glad to hear that it works. It would be interesting to compare social communication styles between people in the social home with social communication among extroverts (in another situation). I expect they are quite different but it would be good to know how they differ.

BaculumMeumEst• 2 years ago

It’s fun to watch mass media inflict so much harm on people with irresponsible reporting designed to terrify, outrage, and misinform you for profit, and then turn around and report on the fallout.

Maybe fun isn’t the right word.

rustcleaner3• 2 years ago

Schadenfreude?

ThalesX5• 2 years ago

I've recently finished reading "Civilized to Death"[0] and I can't help feel there's some truth to some of the ideas.

One idea that stuck with me is that shit zoos have concrete cages for the monkeys, and they're miserable in them, showing similar signs to modern humans (depression, addition, anger), whereas nice zoos try to keep the monkeys in similar environments to those that they evolved for, where the monkeys are pretty much chill. The author argues that we're constructing concrete zoos for ourselves and in the process making ourselves miserable. We're so far detached from what our bodies and minds evolved for, that it's an alien environment for our species.

If this holds truth, it's really no wonder that the more we pile on and the further we stray from our true species' preferences, the more horrible we will feel, and this hikikomori is a fine illustration of that.

As some comments pointed out 'what about the great depression', 'what about 'nuclear war', "don't you like your electricity"? These are all human patches for human made problems. I don't think the correlation between progress and wellbeing is as clear cut as some would like to see it.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Civilized-Death-What-Lost-Modernity/d...

tetris114• 2 years ago

I think even if we lived in a green paradise, there would be those who would measure themselves to others and still find themselves "short" to their more vocally successful peers

I think inequality and toxic competition from an early age demanded by our soceity is a much bigger factor

ThalesX5• 2 years ago

Depends on the checks and balances you have in the 'society'. Are vocally succesful peers lauded? Then perhaps you could run into this situation. Are they mocked for having a big mouth? Maybe the chances are slimmer.

I think inequality and toxic competition from an early age demanded by our soceity is a much bigger factor

Yeah, I tend to agree with you in that these are important factors into how things are playing out. And the scale. My God. We used to have inequality and competition between a small subset of people, now we're competing with 7+ billion.

Apocryphon9• 2 years ago

I think the “by the way our planet’s dying” just adds to the framing of despair. It’s not the root cause but certainly compounds to it. Independently of this phenomenon, it almost feels like we’re reliving the ‘70s (pollution, urban decay, political breakdown).

jwells892• 2 years ago

People feeling increasingly crushed by the daily grind to keep one’s head above water is almost certainly a bigger factor. So many people are just one unfortunate event, or even worse, one paycheck away from financial ruin with little in the way of an institutional safety net (and in the case of many, even a friends/family support network) and that takes a massive toll on one’s psyche.

Speaking for myself, if all needs were guaranteed to be met I’d probably be happier living in a walkable metropolis than idyllic countryside. The part of the city that sucks isn’t the city as much as it is the rat race.

navane• 2 years ago

I'm pretty sure the declining birth rate (or "fertility") is among the consequences of the change you are describing. The difference with past misery is the lack of stories to cover it up, or to give hope that this is temporary and it will get better.

ppqqrr• 2 years ago

I haven't read the book, but I think "concrete zoos," for humans, is more metaphorical than literal. Humans find comfort in much wider ranges of environment. If it were available, I'm sure many would find spaceships to be comforting environments.

IMO, the problem is that we're at this stage of social development, where capitalism, and the antiquated culture of jobs, management and deadline, is actively incentivized to limit human potential and creativity. Why? Because that's where competition comes from.

admissionsguy• 2 years ago

I think the main thing is the lack of on-ramps. Once you have fallen out of the social circulation, there is basically no way of going back. Unless you are able to stay within an extremely narrow range of behaviours (in terms of not being weird, basically speaking expected thinks in expected tone of voice and body language), nobody wants to associate with you. And since about the only way to learn these things is to be around people who already behave in the "right" way, a vicious circle arises.

It has nothing to do with debt, wealth or earnings. Completely independent things. People had it worse at every time in history in almost every place.

It has nothing to do with social media / internet. It just something people tend to fall into when they withdraw, and have no trouble abandoning as soon as the life outside becomes tenable again.

tetris114• 2 years ago

I was briefly jobless in a country with a fantastic social security net.

Easily the most stressful and financially unstable moment in my life.

It was only two months, but I genuinely thought I'd never recover my social standing, or confidence ever again

wholinator23• 2 years ago

How so, what was your experience? This is pretty diametric to most people's assumptions so I'd be interested in hearing more about how that went down

wholinator23• 2 years ago

Sorry, i cannot edit on mobile but i just realized maybe i read that wrong. Are you saying that as opposed to countries without safety nets, or instead emphasizing that even with security nets it can still be a very difficult experience?

jimbokun4• 2 years ago

The evidence that it has a lot to do with social media is very strong. See Jonathan Haidt’s work on the effects of personal phones and social media on young people’s mental health.

Apocryphon9• 2 years ago

Maybe social media catalyzes the problem but the point is that it’s not the root cause, in the same way that opioids did not in of themselves cause the opioid epidemic.

wholinator23• 2 years ago

I see it in analogy to sugar free sweeteners. There's some evidence that the physical experience of tasting sweetness is an essential phase in triggering the body's mechanisms to deal with large sugar intake. And that triggering that mechanism without providing any material for your body to consume can actually do damage to you as it searches for something to metabolize (this is just an analogy, feel free to prove me wrong).

But just like that, online social interactions trigger some part of our internal mechanisms for reacting to actual community and belonging and healthy debate/conversation, but without the complete "meal" to digest that those things actually provide. Thereby triggering maladaptive behaviors and actually doing damage to the systems that regulate in person socializing.

Probably over complicated but who among us, right?

betaby• 2 years ago

The evidence that it has a lot to do with social media is very strong.

Once you ignore finance and lack of housing (and/or overpopulation), then yes.

corimaith• 2 years ago

I think this relates alot to what other posters are saying about how it's difficult to break into established social circles without somebody introducing you in. After all, you're more likely to make friends with a room of individuals than a room of cliques.

What social media does is it greatly strengthens preexisting social circles that there is less incentive for someone to be open-minded and make new friends. Take video games for example, I can personally attest people were alot more sociable and open to friend requests a decade ago than today.

One perception on what is causing this would be Discord. In the past, most people playing would be individuals, and group activities would naturally force people to socialize with strangers. The friends you made in one game would not follow you to another. With Discord, nowadays it's more of alot of premade groups of friends playing these games, so there's no reason to socialize in public chat or care about strangers.

Now Discord isn't new, Skype or BBS existed years before, but they were harder to set up, so pre-made groups were less prevalent and the barriers of entry would naturally mean people with more of an open mindset would be using them. Discord in contrast is very easy to get started with, so the more "conservative" elements would take precedence.

dj_mc_merlin3• 2 years ago

Unless you are able to stay within an extremely narrow range of behaviours (in terms of not being weird, basically speaking expected thinks in expected tone of voice and body language), nobody wants to associate with you.

I'll agree on the lack of on-ramps but this is a pretty limiting view. There's all kinds of people, many who will share some of whatever you think your weirdness is. If you only want to associate with a certain slice of society, it is not so weird that only certain slices of society want to associate with you.

twojobsoneboss2• 2 years ago

How many of them are both geographically close enough and discoverable enough tho?

nicbou• 2 years ago

Social capital follows the same progression as regular capital. If you already have a lot of friends and acquaintances, it's easy to make more. You either get invited to things, or you can organise something and know people will come.

Loneliness is a big problem among recent immigrants. They all struggle to make friends at first, because they have no social capital to build upon. It's hard to break into established circles without being introduced by a member, and few people will show up to a stranger's party unless it's vetted by friends.

There is such a thing as being socially destitute, and the recovery can be quite difficult, especially when you have other things going on in your life.

hackable_sand2• 2 years ago

Great reminder about immigration's social barriers.

Church and work are the lowest friction social spaces that I can think of outside of wealth dimension.

The problem still defaults to getting your foot in the door though. It requires a certain elevation of compassion and information in enough social circles for a single person to overcome cultural devides.

tombert9• 2 years ago

So about two years ago, we got my sister in law to move into our house, because she was graduating high school and we felt that there was more opportunity in NYC than in small-town-USA, at least for a younger person.

We like having her around, she's very nice, but she's also had trouble finding new friends/social-circles here, and I kind of feel bad for dragging her up here as a result. I've always been someone who is happy enough alone, and I generally find a few coworkers at every job that I become friends with anyway, it's never been too hard for me, but I realize that I'm pretty weird. I feel like I yanked her away from a relatively comfortable and established social circle, brought her to a place where she knows nobody, and then just expected everything to be ok, which makes me feel like a dick.

Doesn't help that I ended up yelling at her boyfriend a week ago, for valid-but-not-worth-yelling-about reasons, and now I think she's afraid to leave her bedroom, so I might have inadvertently given her hikikomori tendencies. I'm an asshole :/

[1] usually the especially geeky people who will listen to me ramble about math.

Anotheroneagain3• 2 years ago

It isn't that you're failing, they are the hikikomoris, who want to be alone, and the very fact that somebody tries to socialoze with them annoys them. It's just the norm in the west, so that it's you who stands out, and suffers alone.

softsound2• 2 years ago

I would say it's not just behaviors but isolation causes stress on the body that increases more irrational behaviors and fears.

So that can be crippling when trying to get back to a health state that can handle relationships again. On-ramps to help destress the environment would be helpful too. It's a challenge because we haven't really built many areas where people are welcome to just be, even with 3rd spaces that doesn't those people that are now rewired in their stress state. Some types of maybe community service (clean up, plantings, painting etc) or festivals events might be more helpful here as they can sometimes be lower stress, no required interactions etc. It's a tough thing especially as people have different reasons to isolate though poverty is likely one of the most major ones.

chx2• 2 years ago

It's 2024. Some of us are isolating because y'all refuse to mask up and we can't risk going anywhere.

I have powered through by wearing a Cleanspace Halo but that precludes a real lot of places I used to go: cafes, cinemas, theatres...

Xeyz0r6• 2 years ago

Physical and mental health are affected here, agree. Anxiety and depression are just some of them.

biql• 2 years ago

Sounds like social coaching has all the attributes of an untapped business niche. The question is, if there is just a obvious pain, why there is such a shortage of solutions. I think it could be because of the stigma associated with this issue or because people affect by it lack genuine interest in solutions as people are usually happy to pay for all kinds of self-improvements.

faeriechangling• 2 years ago

Doesn't scale is a huge issue. Lack of evidence that it works is another - and anything remotely evidence based is given by somebody like a psychologist and is very expensive.

dotnet00• 2 years ago

Social coaching is just another venue through which scammers do their thing. Eg the Andrew Tate-esque "schools" making men even more dysfunctional in the name of teaching them to be "attractive".

It's very easy to talk about some sort of coaching for these issues, but imo it isn't really that straightforward. The people being suggested to take coaching are often very easily manipulated, and there's also the issue of everyone having a different standard for a healthy level of socialization, and everyone also loves to force their standard onto everyone. Result is that "social coaching" is going to be more like brainwashing/indoctrination in practice.

BeFlatXIII2• 2 years ago

Sounds like social coaching has all the attributes of an untapped business niche

The problem is that most of the potential customers are well aware that the field is full of hucksters and certifications are largely meaningless. I'm not about to pay for services I don't believe will pan out.

neonate• 2 years ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20240525142056/https://www.cnn.c...

https://archive.ph/lt04t

grugagag• 2 years ago

Im curios if population desnsity may have any corelation to this or not. Im also thinking that the culture is shunning a certain personality type or people with some mental struggles that their only way to adapt is to withdraw.

jackcosgrove• 2 years ago

Population density is absolutely the driver of all of this. It increases competition, decreases personal space, and limits access to nature.

Humans are social animals, but we aren't ants. We're not supposed to live in concrete jungles. As others have said, hikikomoris are one extreme of a continuum of negative outcomes caused by modern life. A low birthrate is another, which is correlated with urban living (there are other factors but this trend is unmistakable).

I believe this is a natural outcome of very high population density, a negative feedback mechanism. When life becomes unbearable because of too many people, we withdraw and don't reproduce.

nakedneuron• 2 years ago

"Universe 25 Mouse Experiment" by J. Calhoun shows this too.

https://youtu.be/7ReBJfxHjFU

Key sentences (1:30): "Young ones found themselves born in a world with far more mice than meaningful social roles. Males faced a lot of competitors to defend their territory against. Many found that so stressful they gave up. Normal discourse within the community broke down and with it the ability of mice to form social bonds."

Very nicely illustrated.

piloto_ciego3• 2 years ago

An article I found if anyone is interested:

https://www.the-scientist.com/universe-25-1968-1973-69941

MathMonkeyMan• 2 years ago

He dare not come in company, for fear he should be misused, disgraced, overshoot himself in gesture or speeches, or be sick; he thinks every man observes him, aims at him derides him, owes hint malice.

- Hippocrates?[1]

[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/AskLiteraryStudies/comments/68zg38/...

blopker• 2 years ago

He said he didn’t respond to friends’ messages or confide in anyone, feeling like nobody would understand anyway.

I feel this. I think people would call me an introvert, but I'm probably just an over-thinker. It's casual conversation that seems to be exhausting (or uninteresting?) to me. Once I'm in a space where I can talk openly about more abstract topics I start to enjoy it. Getting there just often seems like too much work though.

I tried therapy, meditation, 'wellness' apps. It all either felt too 'me' focused, or too detached. I like this site because people here seem to share what they are actually thinking, and are eloquent enough to capture interesting nuance. I don't always agree with it, but there's a level of authenticity to where I always learn something about the human condition. I wanted more of that.

[This is kind of a plug, but whatever]

I've spent the last few years in a deep-dive around why we seem to be collectively getting lonelier over time. I started a non-profit[0] to house this research. It's evolved into a platform where we host these support groups. Anyone can join, it's free, and as long as you stick to the community guidelines [1] anyone is welcome to join.

For me, it's a place to get out of my head. To hear from real people who don't generally feel like their voice matters. I know from years in tech management that these are in fact the most interesting people to talk to.

I've never really talked about Totem here because I think it might be too 'woo-woo' for this crowd, but if any of that landed for you, come check us out. If you don't like it, I'd love to know why. My personal email is in my profile.

We are a non-profit, grant-funded, and open-source[2] organization. Feedback of any kind is welcome. My hope is to become something like a public utility for these spaces. We're also looking for engineers to help make an app out of this.

[0] https://www.totem.org [1]: https://www.totem.org/guidelines/ [2]: https://github.com/totem-technologies/totem-server

uxcolumbo• 2 years ago

Can’t stand small talk either. I get it, it’s required at the beginning of meeting people, but don’t stay too long in that mode otherwise it gets boring.

Your site looks beautiful, kudos to the design team.

ItCouldBeWorse• 2 years ago

In my experience, life-experience increases the self-isolation. To the point that the old-folkshome are often halls of quiet, as everyone knows what horrible behavior perfectly normal people are capable and do not wish to interact. The guy who conspires against everyone at work, that manager that harvests others laurels, the longer you life, the more you understand how many will flip on you in this prisoner dilemma of a society. So they all barricade themselves in suburbia, sniper one another through HOA letters and claim to do it for the family, till its time to inherit and even the core family falls apart.

Maybe some hiki is just more aware of what a lonely hellish life it is to be part of western society. And chooses to opt out. Lay flat. Assumes the party escort position. If he would at least consume drugs in there, but its just ramen and colored light.

seec• 2 years ago

I couldn't agree more. I think many of the people who choose to isolate just have more self-awareness and more defining bad experiences that makes them avoid too many social interactions that are not strictly necessary or truly beneficial in an obvious way. In fact, I believe that the nicer and more honest you are in our modern world the worse it is for you.

At heart I'm a rather social person, I like talking to people and doing stuff with them. Yet, all my life I have been abused both verbally and physically, I got stuff stolen many times (often I was actually trying to help) and I get manipulated/used all the time without getting much in return. All of this comes from being too different (not weird in a bad way, just different in the way I speak/handle myself) and abusive narcissists parents (one in particular) that destroyed my emotional self, teaching me to avoid all conflit at all cost and not stand-up for myself even though I would be capable.

All this is made worse in our bullshit job world, where every business pretend that they are a family and require you to give a lot of your life (like for example forcing you to eat with coworkers even though it should be a break for yourself) while still not giving any kind of security (you can be fired/discarded regardless of the quality of your work) or a real sense of being part of a larger cohesive group that stick together. Because at the end of the day, even inside a small business, it's all competition, lies, exploitation, anything is OK to get ahead regardless of consequences on individuals, they are expandable.

That being said, drugs make everything worse in the long term, they are a relief/distraction but if you don't manage to kill yourself with them, they will cause more problems on top of the already existing ones. In a way, you could say that the users of hardcore drugs are somewhat ahead of the curve, because if they manage to OD it is sort of a salvation without having to deal with all the implications of suicide...

Hikikomori• 2 years ago

I hope they have a roof as well.

im3w1l2• 2 years ago

I think it may be due to some sort of "outcome compression". The life of working a bottom tier-job isn't materially better than a life of not working at all.

One solution I've been thinking of is that maybe there needs to be some kind of state-provided minimum life. Almost like opt in communism.

If you opt in then you get an 8h/day job automatically. Doesn't matter if you don't have any skills at all. The job will be guaranteed safe and non-humiliating (no sex work and if you are a vegetarian you don't have to work as a butcher etc). In exchange you get enough food, clothes and shelter to provide for yourself and children (assuming two incomes), entertainment (exchangable for cash equivalent), pension, health insurance, upskill opportunities, and some money on top. If you have negative net worth when enterring the program, your loans will gradually decrease (this could be done as some combination of the state paying them off for you and the loan giver being stiffed).

You can opt out at any time you want.

enchanted-gian• 2 years ago

something like universal basic work?

Apocryphon9• 2 years ago

Or a federal jobs guarantee.

im3w1l2• 2 years ago

That might be a more palatable name for it. But a key feature of my proposal is that you actually get the goods you need rather than a lump some of money that may or may not be enough to buy them.

sirianth• 2 years ago

into it.

badpun• 2 years ago

I think it may be due to some sort of "outcome compression". The life of working a bottom tier-job isn't materially better than a life of not working at all.

The Hikkikomoris in Japan are all sustained by their parents. There's actually a growing concern there about the first generation of Hikkikomoris who are getting into their 50s already and their parents are starting to die, leaving them with no life skills and no source of income.

fragmede• 2 years ago

opt-in communism is not the name I'd go with, but that's a lot more palatable than universal basic income.

basic job guarantee? there's absolutely no shortage of work to be done, it's just a distribution problem, just like with food and money.

motohagiography2• 2 years ago

our baseline entertainments are better than the long tail of negative interactions one persists through to get to the great ones. in doomscrolling vs. disappointment, more people are picking doomscrolling.

older than the examples, but I have done this. live alone on a large rural property, walden style, tech comp no family, have online interactions for remote work, old irc channels, take some sport, fitness, and music training as kind of weekly rhythm, family lives in other time zones. it was an ideal I thought I could achieve and then have it to share with others. relationships and friendships with any personal connection or intimacy still manage to fail, lots of reasons but I'm the constant. only way to sustain anything is to keep it at a polite distance with no expectations.

issue i suspect is that meaning comes from the cohering and persistence of relationships, and without that persistent mutual understanding, meaning just seeps away and leaves a flat state of inertia. no advice other than to avoid this example. I sympathize with these young people, it's as though they don't see a present or future in which there is meaning for them, or in which they are a participant, and so they are just withdrawing and waiting for the next life instead of engaging this one. it's a unique and recently invented trap, avoid it as best you can.

waythrowa2• 2 years ago

I think a lot of black sheep personalities feel like this, pretty safe and smug in calling all the patterns we see in others that make them not right for us. And we know too much of ourselves will try their patience too, which makes us resent their love as a thin weak thing.

lots of reasons but I'm the constant

Sad face. I don’t know if admitting this helps or hurts, but a long while ago when I kept seeing your username on so many of my favorite comments i thought about emailing you to flirt, but the more I kept reading thru to look for hints (to confirm that ur straight, not married, etc ) the more I psyched myself out… In sober assessment, I likely wouldn’t meet your standards of, like… spiritual vigor, agency, having ones adult shit together, strength of character in a flailing sham society, etc. You already seemed too complete an image on your own. It creates admiration for sure, but in a way that challenges me to get to your level rather than come closer…

Resonating with someone’s deep judgements of the world also means I can’t fall short or claim ignorance later, there’s less room to play. “I agree with everything this guy finds virtuous yet i lack these qualities even after all this time… sigh, better just go work on becoming my best self…“

Catch22, if I already was my ideal self would I still be attracted to philosophical types on hn? (I kinda hate this place ngl)

Not sure if any of us with these dispositions really want another human up close or if that ‘trying’ is just part of the aesthetic if I’m honest with myself.

Anyway, if u want to talk to a misanthropic fangirl, my username is LimeOregano on Telegram, and when you’re in the woods and very lonely, you can feel free to send me ponderous voice notes without overthinking this polite distance that you’re obliged to maintain with real friends. We can ghost each other if the long tail of negative interaction proves too much!

(Afterall, if you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the results of getting your hopes up 100 times lol)

Regardless, i hope youre flattered to know that some strangers like you based on the quality of your thoughts alone

piloto_ciego3• 2 years ago

This is my favorite interaction I’ve seen on HackerNews and this made me smile.

Maybe I’m just a hopeless romantic, but like, follow up on this. You’ve got to email OP if this is how you feel and if you’ve got his email, you’ve got to reach out. I mean, sure it’s a little unorthodox and strange, but yah, you gotta go for it. Fuck it, we’re all weirdos - we’re on a site called HackerNews ffs. Who gives a shit? You can never know if you don’t try. So try! Life is so damn short.

One beautiful part about this crazy life thing is that we put ourselves out there and risk disappointment so that we can look at our selves in the mirror at night when we’re old. So that’s pretty damn cool that you posted this and I hope it works out. That’s very brave.

When you are old what will you regret? Not trying to be with the people you care about - people say that time and time again on their death beds. Even if it’s not romantic love there are other ways you can enjoy the company of people you care about. It is better to risk the transient shame of failure than to suffer the permanent shame of never trying, so, kudos for having the stones to try.

I don’t want to turn this into a thing about myself, but look, I’ve had a rough few fucking years. I developed a chronic illness a few years ago (and became visually impaired), this winter I slipped on ice and I had to get surgery while in my last semester of grad school, and I’ve had to totally rebuild my career from scratch into this new programming one during a tech hiring desert. I’m fucking tired - but I’ll tell you this, even though I’m tired, I just want to say, life is really short. It can be over so fucking fast, so live in a way to minimize your regrets and try to make connections with people whose company you enjoy. Anyway, I’m cheering you on. Go out there and try to enjoy the company of others in spite of all the shit that makes us want to curl into a ball and ignore the world. The antidote to hikkimori pits of despair is defiance of the world that wants us to ignore each other. Fellowship and love is a bit of a revolutionary act on its own.

Good luck! o7

motohagiography2• 2 years ago

Unexpectedly kind and brave, and well timed, thank you. Writers have the unfair advantage of getting to refine everything before presenting it, so if you've tried to get better at something as the result of reading about it, you're probably more successful than you know. :)

Thanks again. If we're in touch, here's a hash I can prove to show it's me and not someone trolling you: e84c316700f608de4b536be10a3119530b617d0d

random97498323• 2 years ago

When you are a teenager it is so easy to treat your time as if it is unlimited and start sinking 1000s of hours into some MMO or other games that before you know it you are in your 20s with no girlfriend, job, skill or self-confidence.

Then you got Japanese entertainment like Hatsune Miku, idols and visual novels/anime that take advantage of lonely people with make-believe girlfriends.

okdood642• 2 years ago

Wait, what's wrong with Hatsune Miku? It has relatively broad appeal; performed at Coachella.

Apocryphon9• 2 years ago

I think they’re describing a stereotype that’s a decade behind the times.

jwells892• 2 years ago

It may not be accurate to paint large amounts of time spent MMOs and the like as a net negative, though. Speaking personally as someone who grew up in a tiny town where there’s nothing for young people to do, WoW and the small nerdy circle of friends that came with it almost certainly kept me out of serious trouble in my teenage years and I think ultimately helped steer my trajectory in such a way that allowed for a more successful adulthood, even if it was a distraction from shorter term development.

Of course this is something that will vary greatly between individuals, though. For some the depths of obsession are much more deep and destructive.

card_zero6• 2 years ago

Lots of visual novels/anime are about shut-ins tremulously venturing out into the world and eventually making friends, usually after a lot of anxiety and misunderstanding. I think they'd probably have an encouraging effect. I remember one where a woman confesses her condition to the person in the next apartment, and is advised to start small by visiting the convenience store. She manages it, and is incredibly proud of herself. Soon she is making lists of convenience stores, and has visited every convenience store in a five-mile radius! And now her problem is to diversify, but, you know, it's a start.

random97498323• 2 years ago

How encouraging is it really if there is lots of VNs about shut-ins? Seems like just more escapism. How many does the average person play before they start going outside?

hooverd• 2 years ago

Hey now, Vocaloid tuning takes effort and creativity!

imtringued2• 2 years ago

Considering the strong inability of modern women to show interest in the average man, I find your comment offensive. The thing is, these people wouldn't get girlfriends either way and now you're just here to bully them. Some people simply aren't cut out for having a girlfriend or having children. Forcing them into doing that just to satisfy what a literal "random" person on HN said is absurdly cruel. You don't care about their lives so just shut up.

Those 1000s of hours are what got me my job, skill and self confidence. It's people like you who hate it when others are self confident.

_lvbh2• 2 years ago

Note: Miku is a vocaloid, basically a voice bank licensed to producers who generate and tune a pre-existing voice with their own lyrics/music. Some of the music produced by these artists are actually amazing and it gets even better when a human singer covers the songs. (See supercell+Ado 恋は戦争) Yes I know about the Idol part and I couldn’t care less.

It’s the people like you that generalize a whole culture that ruin it.

nvarsj• 2 years ago

Yikes dude, stereotype much? Anime actually got me out of my "hikikomori" phase by encouraging me to study and get a gf. You can laugh but it's true :).

Borrible• 2 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops

"Imagine, if you can, a small room, hexagonal in shape, like the cell of a bee. It is lighted neither by window nor by lamp, yet it is filled with a soft radiance. There are no apertures for ventilation, yet the air is fresh. There are no musical instruments, and yet, at the moment that my meditation opens, this room is throbbing with melodious sounds. An armchair is in the centre, by its side a reading-desk - that is all the furniture. And in the armchair there sits a swaddled lump of flesh - a woman, about five feet high, with a face as white as a fungus. It is to her that the little room belongs."

...

"Vashanti's next move was to turn off the isolation switch, and all the accumulations of the last three minutes burst upon her. The room was filled with the noise of bells, and speaking-tubes. What was the new food like? Could she recommend it? Has she had any ideas lately? Might one tell her one's own ideas? Would she make an engagement to visit the public nurseries at an early date? - say this day month."

forinti2• 2 years ago

In South America it's become common to hear about adolescents and young people (mostly men) who spend all their time on video games and neither work nor study.

I imagine this to be a very different phenomenon from Japan, because the culture is so different. In South America I think it is just general disengagement and disillusion with society and work environments in general. For most people life is having a bad job that pays very little and you have to spend hours on a crowded bus to get to a pretty horrible part of town. Living in the virtual world is much more comfortable and pleasant.

Gigachad• 2 years ago

In Australia there is a pretty good welfare system, but they will basically give you a job to work while you keep applying for a real one. Usually it’s something like sorting clothes in a charity store. I imagine it helps to keep people engaged in society somewhat.

conwy• 2 years ago

Why to complain? Seems like heaven to me.

39896880• 2 years ago

If this topic interests you, you might enjoy the book “Shutting Out the Sun: How Japan Created Its Own Lost Generation” by Michael Zielenziger: https://openlibrary.org/books/OL24765707M/Shutting_out_the_s...

hiAndrewQuinn• 2 years ago

I think I came pretty close to ending up like this kind of person a few times. Each time I got out it was by basically taking a hammer to my superego and doing some shit I used to consider "unforgivable", like being long term unemployed, or engaging in long term substance abuse, or moving countries basically on a whim.

And, if that's what it takes, then I stand by it. If your life choices are "hikikomori" or "scumbag", you'd be an idiot to not choose scumbag. Ideally you can get out of it through less destructive means, but let's not pretend like closing yourself off entirely from the world is better than having a problematic but loving relationship with it in all its colors.

GlibMonkeyDeath2• 2 years ago

Hmm, no one is talking about the enabler for this - modern wealth. In the not so distant past, refusing to get up and face the world would result in starvation. Survival required people to be more social.

As a parent of two adult children who are both working, I can't imagine enabling this (even though I could.) Sure, if my kids were truly disabled that would be another story, but it seems the hikikomori are just unhappy with the world. Enabling them to spend their lives doomscrolling or playing games is actively harmful.

AIorNot• 2 years ago

I think the bigger enabler is the internet with its endless source of media

GlibMonkeyDeath2• 2 years ago

True, the internet is a cheap, endless, addictive supply of distraction that didn't exist until recently. But someone still has to provide it - a hikikomori staying in their room all day will not be able to pay the utility bill without an enabler...

Nextgrid• 2 years ago

Modern wealth is potentially a double-edged sword.

There's enough of it that "hikikomori" is a viable strategy to stay alive.

Yet, "modern wealth" is also the reason many things previous generations took for granted such as housing are effectively unreachable for many people nowadays, plus inflation/cost of living.

This makes "hikikomori" the rational strategy for some people. Enough money to scrape by and live online, but not enough to actually climb out of the hole.

getpost• 2 years ago

Several adults in my friendship circle (retired or semi-retired) have evolved to spending nearly their entire waking lives online. They're able socialize normally, but they don't make the time to do that as often as in the past. This is tantamount to hikkormoridom.

One friend went to visit two other friends who live together in New Mexico. He imagined they'd be out and about doing stuff during his visit, but the hosts remained preoccupied by their online activities. The visitor could have stayed home and texted.

billy99k• 2 years ago

I know people like this. They go on vacation to basically watch tv and/or go online with different scenery.

hypeatei3• 2 years ago

I think what's missed in a lot of these discussions is your upbringing. Our society changed very quickly in the last 30 years and parents may not be providing the proper "foundation" for their children since they didn't grow up with all this stuff. Even if you had shitty parents before, you'd probably do alright since all of society in past times was based on in-person interactions and there wasn't endless media consumption at your fingertips.

Personally, my parents were very immature, divorced, and generally didn't set me up for a healthy/balanced social life. I haven't completely given up; I work, maintain loose contact with a few friends, and basically just "doing my time" until I die.

twojobsoneboss2• 2 years ago

Damn that last sentence is depressing. What keeps you going?

hypeatei3• 2 years ago

What keeps you going?

At this point, my biological urge to stay alive. Other things interest me like new game releases or OSS projects but I wouldn't say that there is anything that makes me look forward to waking up.

uwagar• 2 years ago

bartleby the scrivener felt like a hikikomori too. anybody felt so?

tombert9• 2 years ago

I have a job and I don't live alone, so I don't think I fall into the hikikomri definition in any real sense of the word, but I will say that remote work kind of made me adjacent to it. I sort of have a strong distaste to leave my house a lot of the time since 2020.

I still do leave my house, I have a job that requires me to be in the office for two days a week, but it's something I dread every single week for a variety of reasons. There's something bizarrely comforting about just staying in your bedroom all day and pretending the rest of the world doesn't exist, and it's kind of addictive.

Going outside and having a social life is usually worth it, but it's also kind of intimidating; I have to take a shower, get on the train with a bunch of strangers and not do anything too weird because of course I care a tiny bit what these strangers think about me for whatever reason, go into an office with people who are not-quite-strangers and work extra hard to not be too weird or say anything that might upset someone and keep my desk clean and have meetings with managers who could fire you immediately for any reason they want...it's all exhausting.

I still try and make an effort to leave my house sometimes, but I kind of get why hikikomori do it.

amonith2• 2 years ago

Kind of same, except add a wife and a kid under way. There's plenty of us. Most people absolutely do not regularly "go out" if they work and have a family. We maintain the bare minimum social interaction because we have to but we'd happily skip it in a heartbeat.

globular-toast6• 2 years ago

Yeah. I'm similar too. I guess I was almost a hikikomori at one point. I was basically nocturnal and really afraid of social situations. But I was kinda forced into society by having to get a job and stuff; my parents weren't going to look after me.

I haven't been single for very long at all over the past 15 years, but I have very little social interaction. In the past I would force myself to go out to avoid being single and lonely. But every single time I've been in a relationship I shy away from this. I used to think I should force myself to do it, like how some people force themselves to exercise, but now I think why should I force myself to do something I don't want to do for my whole life? It's clear at this point it's part of my nature and won't change. Who am I trying to impress? I just want to be alone most of the time. It's as simple as that. I work from home 5 days a week and I've never been happier.

It's not that I hate every second of socialising but it's just not how I want to spend my life. I often tell people it's like going into a sauna. Yeah, you'll go in and enjoy it, but the most important thing is getting out. Nobody wants to spend their whole life in a sauna.

tombert9• 2 years ago

Yeah, I get it. I have friends, I like my friends (else I wouldn't be friends with them), and I like socializing with them, but it almost never even occurs to me to invite them out to do something. Stuff like that kind of makes me a little anxious.

It's also gotten worse since I completely stopped drinking alcohol for the last few years. I wasn't a huge drinker anyway, but the liquid courage of even a tiny bit of alcohol did relieve that anxiety, and made it easier to do stuff with friends. Now that I don't drink alcohol I'm a little boring.

anal_reactor• 2 years ago

Going outside and having a social life is usually worth it

Doubt.

The biggest reason for me not to attend social events is that 99% of people are useless from my perspective and it's extremely rare for me to come across someone I actually enjoy spending time with.

moffkalast• 2 years ago

Well yeah I think OP means hanging out with those few people you socially enjoy being with. Despite being worth it, even that is sometimes an uphill struggle if you lose energy from it.

I'm still bracing to see how much better/worse language models will make the situation on a global level. So many times I find myself talking to them instead of actual people because there's no chat latency and they're nicer to talk to anyway.

kwere• 2 years ago

usually social outings become "fake" and being around people to be "social" becomes really sad

fuzztester• 2 years ago

Article has such a weird UI.

amonith2• 2 years ago

As a man with a full time job (remote), a wife and a kid under way I cannot really fathom having energy for more social activities (except meeting some friends or family at most once a month, reluctantly). Am I a hikikomori? I kind of relate to them. My wife also doesn't meet anyone else ever. Now that I think of it - neither do our parents or most people living in their village. It's all work + church at most.

Maybe as humans we don't really need social interaction THAT much? I mean how do you explain people who seem to thrive living off-grid? We do need jobs and some basic communication skills for sure at least to maintain the current standard of living but maybe not for socializing. Some comments here kind of sound like "extrovert propaganda" - same people who cry for the return to office because they cannot imagine that people can live differently.

speckledsea• 2 years ago

As a man who spent a decade living as what is described as a hikikomori, no, you're not. I think you are massively underestimate just how much socialization you have, and underestimating just how many other issues come along with living that lifestyle. I would likely need many hours to properly illustrate them all.

AtlasBarfed• 2 years ago

The solution is probably early exercise.

Japanese and south Koreans are canaries in the coal mine for end stage urbanization.

There really isn't free roaming and a lot of greatly reduced activity compared to rural areas.

Exercise counteracts depression, imposes a routine of physical mental social interaction with the real world under controlled circumstances.

But end stage capitalism doesn't value replacement level population growth, so associated programs for child development in urban settings are even less valued.

Being an environmentalist I always dislike capitalism economics and it's inability to value preservation even if the future of the human race, but it seems that the end state of consumerism and urbanization is demographic collapse.

karaterobot• 2 years ago

A lot of discussion in this thread assumes that hikikomori are a very new phenomenon. I see that they appear in the psychiatric literature as early as 1978. I also see that the number of hikikomori in Japan varies by survey, and is hard to measure, but still seems to be roughly the same as it was in 2010, if not a little lower.

What to make of that? Because the most obvious and most common explanations for them seems to be the internet, smartphones, and anxiety about the future (global warming, the economy, etc.). But if those were the reasons for hikikomori, I'd assume that the number of hikokomori would have increased significantly in the last 15 years, not stayed roughly the same, as it has. The gravity of the internet in our culture feels like it has increased exponentially. Climate fear doesn't feel exponentially higher, but subjectively it still feels a lot more widespread to me. Why not commensurately more people living as hikikomori, if the phenomenon supposedly tracks these factors?

reverendjames• 2 years ago

He should give the bottom bunk to his grandma.

matrix87• 2 years ago

Not a hikikomori, I work and kind of look forward to the office and do fun stuff rarely... but I wish there was an easier way to find a "way in" in the bay area

Also another weird thing I realized after moving: cultural distance and ethnicity matter. The schools spend a bunch of time forcing people to sing songs about it not mattering, but psychologically it matters a lot to people. I'm a secular jew but am considering becoming a religious one just for that

asdf6969• 2 years ago

This is how I want to live after I FIRE

Xeyz0r6• 2 years ago

Sometimes it is just too much to handle for me too. And I just shut down. For a week or two. And then trying to come back. And that period is a painful one

The hikikomori in Asia: A life within four walls

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