Airlines required to refund passengers for canceled, delayed flights

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/airlines-give-automatic-refunds-canceled-flights-delayed-3/story?id=109573733

by vyrotek • 2 years ago

725 347 2 years ago

abcnews.go.com

koito17• 2 years ago

As someone who knows somebody that recently had a flight cancelled (then booked another flight at the same airport, only for that flight to get cancelled as well), it was very frustrating to hear that all the airlines in question would do is issue a voucher that expires in 3 months and requires the exact same people to travel alongside you (i.e. if you purchased a ticket for yourself and a relative, then the voucher only applies to flights where you and this exact same relative are boarding). It seems like a pretty blatant way for airlines to keep customer's money. Too bad this rule didn't come sooner.

jessriedel4• 2 years ago

Pretty sure US airlines have had to give you refund for canceled flights for years.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/money-flight-cance...

To be clear, passengers flying in the U.S. are already entitled to refunds when a flight is canceled or significantly delayed. No matter the cause — weather-related or not — airlines must pay passengers back for the unused portion of their ticket if the passenger ultimately chooses not to fly. It’s worth noting that the DOT does not define what constitutes a “significant delay.”

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/do-airlines-owe-yo...

MBCook2• 2 years ago

They do, but they’ll never tell you that. You have to know.

The only thing I saw in this article that I don’t like is that they can still issue vouchers. And I didn’t see anything that said the vouchers had to be for more than the cash payment.

So I’m guessing if you miss your flight and are entitled to $300 (to pick an amount) they’ll be very happy to instantly give everyone a voucher for $100 off. Thus saving $200/head unless people know their rights.

How about: you must issue cash refunds PERIOD. No voucher nonsense.

Still, this is great.

wkat4242• 2 years ago

Same in Europe. There's standard amounts.

caseyy• 2 years ago

Same in the EU - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Passengers_Rights_Regula...

Although air carriers can offer passengers alternative compensation if the passenger chooses to accept it. For example, vouchers or a lower sum of money and no accommodation. Sometimes they present it as the only option to mislead the passenger.

If challenged in court on refusing to pay out, air carriers sometimes claim extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided. This is an exception in the law. But it is for really force majeure events, like real disasters. Meanwhile, airlines often claim that something like the airplane breaking down or an employee calling in sick is extraordinary circumstances. This falls squarely within ordinary day-to-day operations of an airline. So it doesn’t fly in court, but it’s used more as an intimidating tactic to show to the plaintiff that their lawsuit would supposedly fail and to force awful settlement terms.

Lots to be said about airlines trying to weasel out but it generally doesn’t work. Unless the passenger signs that they accept alternative compensation. I know the law doesn’t seem to allow that, but the phrasing is specific enough that it falls within the law.

eastbound• 2 years ago

In Europe, I’ve always had my parking, taxi, restaurant and hotel reimbursed by the airline in case of delays (such as: bad weather or strike -> we’ll board tomorrow morning -> full reimbursement of all implied expenses).

I thought this was IATA regulations. US travelers are really getting the hard stick herr.

ranger_danger5• 2 years ago

According to some random internet stories that may or may not be true, canceled flights due to a delay that resulted in the destination airport CLOSING before they would have landed, is one such situation that is/was not considerable as a refund.

sunnybeetroot• 2 years ago

You are correct, it’s mentioned in the article:

Buttigieg reiterated that refund requirements are already the standard for airlines, but the new DOT rules hold the airlines to account and makes sure passengers get the "refunds that are owed to them."

rco8786• 2 years ago

You have to know that, and you have to fight through their customer "service" desk/phone portal to get it. Most people just give up or take the first thing offered to them.

wildzzz• 2 years ago

When WOW Air closed down, they refunded European tickets but not Americans. We ended up doing a charge back with our credit card. I was a little pissed at first but ended up getting a cheaper flight to a better starting point for our trip to Europe through Air Italy (which coincidentally closed down a year later).

al_borland2• 2 years ago

I had a flight cancelled due to COVID in 2020. I was given a voucher, which sat unused. They extended the expiration on it a couple times, due to the pandemic dragging on. Eventually, out of nowhere, after 2+ years of sitting on the voucher, I was issued a refund.

I was glad to get the refund, but when talking about a multiyear timeframe, I feel like I should get my money back with interest.

mcny• 2 years ago

How did you get your money back? I didn’t get a refund from delta at all…

lupire• 2 years ago

In the context of the pandemic, being a little forgiving is reasonable.

Yeul2• 2 years ago

COVID was such a cluster fuck that it could have bankrupted airliners. Under normal circumstances they can afford to refund their passengers.

Companies need to have an incentive to provide a good service.

rqtwteye3• 2 years ago

Alaska gave me a 12 month voucher that expired because I had no need to fly with them. I asked about extending it or a cash refund but they refused.

greenie_beans2• 2 years ago

i'm still trying to get mine...

alsetmusic• 2 years ago

I missed a flight and rebooked for later on the same day. My return flight was still cancelled because how could they know I maintained the trip. There’s no way for them to be unaware that I bought a new one-way ticket. They were just predatory about it.

zerovox• 2 years ago

This will be used as a pretense to raise airline fares, and won't impact cancellation rates or average delay times.

dkjaudyeqooe3• 2 years ago

All of those things are motivated by the corporate greed of fat, lazy oligopolies.

At least now you can get your money back after your ticket being rendered useless.

maccard2• 2 years ago

Rules like these exist in Europe, and flying in Europe is incredibly cheap. For a random weekend in May, I can fly to 26 different countries for under $50 one way.

Airlines here are also significantly less likely to cancel your flights, and in my experience (I've taken somewhere in the region of 200 flights in the last 10 years) there is a bit of wiggle in terms of your actual arrival time, but being more than an hour out is less likely than int eh US.

kristopolous• 2 years ago

So if a company is going to be insincere and act in bad faith, we shouldn't ever try to curb bad behavior?

Such a policy implies the most corrupt and criminal companies should get the least oversight possible.

I might be crazy, but I think that's backwards.

bobmcnamara2• 2 years ago

The doors of course, will continue to fall off.

b112• 2 years ago

That's Boeing, not the airline's fault. Don't let Boeing get off, lay the blame at their feet.

paxys3• 2 years ago

If they could have raised fares they would have already. Why do you think this rule will make a difference?

tyingq• 2 years ago

Because each airlines knows their competitors will lose margin if fares don't go up. The new rules are more expensive. So someone will raise the fares, and the competition won't significantly undercut the pricing change.

rainsford• 2 years ago

That's not necessarily true. Yes, the change to requiring refunds rather than compensation that airlines can weasel out of raises an airline's cost of cancellation, but passing that cost along to their customers makes them less competitive compared to airlines that have better on-time performance. A refund requirement means they can't have their cake (low fares) and eat it too (shitty on-time performance), and there is real financial disincentive to having terrible reliability...or financial incentive to be more reliable.

yuliyp• 2 years ago

Airlines don't need a pretense to raise fares. They can, and do, adjust rates all the time to charge people as much as they can get away with. Unlike regulated industries such as insurance or utilities, there's nobody they have to convince to let them raise their fares.

elevatedastalt4• 2 years ago

That's not as strong an argument as you think it is.

It is common for industries to have settle on points / equilibria based on what other players are doing, and companies typically don't unilaterally rock the boat too much.

However external factors act as forcing functions (I call them nucleation sites as a crystallization analogy) around which new equilibria can develop. Regulatory changes are one such example.

For example, during COVID many hotels shifted to not doing daily housekeeping. At that point they cited social distancing or workforce shortage reasons.

But it's been 2 years since the pandemic was completely over and many hotels now still don't do daily housekeeping. The prices of course haven't reduced.

Back in 2014 when California had a drought, my car dealership stopped offering free washes as part of the maintenance package citing bullshit "let's do our part in saving water" reasons.

The drought is long over but the free car washes have not come back.

alkonaut6• 2 years ago

Yes it can raise fares - and that's not some unexpected downside it's just pricing being more transparent.

If airlines have a cost to being late/cancelling, then that will balance against the cost of having e.g. N% slack in staff/aircraft/schedules. It most definitely helps reduce cancellation and delays.

If you are curious whether this is bullshit, the best experiment would be to time travel back a N years, take two similarly sized continents with lots of flying, and use this type of regulation on one continent and not the other.

stavros4• 2 years ago

Wait wait wait. Requires airlines to refund? Not to compensate, but to give you your money back? What did they do before?!

iamtheworstdev• 2 years ago

shitty voucher system

stavros4• 2 years ago

Wow

alkonaut6• 2 years ago

Vouchers are fine but Airlines should be forced to pay 200% in vouchers or 100% cash and the choice should be very clear to the customer.

bagels2• 2 years ago

Vouchers or tell you that they are not required by law to compensate you, like United told me. (United would have owed me at least five refunds under the new rules)

stavros4• 2 years ago

How is it possible that you pay me to provide a service, I don't provide the service, and just keep your money? This sounds outrageous.

jessriedel4• 2 years ago

You have long been entitled to a refund for canceled flights. The new rules regard “substantial delays”.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/travel/money-flight-cance...

readyman2• 2 years ago

Requires airlines to refund?

No. The headline is a lie. See the article:

The DOT rules lay out that passengers will be "entitled to a refund if their flight is canceled or significantly changed, and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered."

In other words, evermore useless travel credits will be accepted and nothing will have fundamentally changed.

Waterluvian• 2 years ago

I’m reading the sentence you quote and I don’t understand how you’re arriving at that understanding.

If my flight is cancelled I’m entitled to a refund if I refuse any other compensatory measures?

Sohcahtoa82• 2 years ago

Are you not interpreting the "and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered" clause to mean that the customers have a choice to take the refund?

The wording definitely implies that customers may be offered alternative transportation or travel credits, but that they have the right to not accept those, and take a refund instead.

dclowd99013• 2 years ago

Often they would provide you vouchers or something that were attached to some confirmation number that was never listed anywhere.

dkjaudyeqooe3• 2 years ago

This is shocking for not currently being the case.

Compare the EU where they're not only required to refund you in full, but also compensate you up to 600 euros.

Note that compensation doesn't apply to weather related events and other 'not in our control' things, but the scope is pretty narrow.

imustbeevil• 2 years ago

Weather accounts for 75% of all airline delays (in the US). That disclaimer is kind of surprising to gloss over.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/22/weather/why-flights-get-c....

pas• 2 years ago

It worked for us a few years ago. Eurowings was late and the plane had to land somewhere else, they got us to the destination airport with buses. Then we got 250 EUR comp.

dkjaudyeqooe3• 2 years ago

Forcing airlines to compensate passengers for weather delays isn't going to work, and isn't equitable. You'd probably have people purposefully trying to book flights that are liable to be cancelled in order to profit.

Don't know what disclaimer you're referring to but in the EU you still get a full refund for cancellations no matter what the reason.

gravescale• 2 years ago

Yes, but it's a bit unfair to ding an airline 600 euros per passenger on top of the fare refund because the weather wasn't safe. Fining an airline north of 100k because they didn't take off in unsafe weather would result in an even greater incentive to fly anyway.

The fines are there to disincentivise the airlines from skimping on staffing or maintenance, causing delays, and lumping passengers with the expenses incurred by having to rearrange travel at short notice.

I assume there is some kind of system in place to prevent airlines falsely claiming bad weather to escape the compensation rules.

tschwimmer2• 2 years ago

The compliance with this law is anecdotally very poor. Swiss Airlines owes me thousands of Euros for missed connections but they contend that the situations were outside their control (some mechanical issue) and thus they refuse to compensate. I have a 200 long thread email chain spanning years with no progress. You can use services like Airhelp to get a refund but they take a huge commission and I am too stubborn to give in that way. Luckily the statute of limitations on these claims is 6 years so I have enough time to figure out how to make a complaint to the Swiss aviation authority.

Scanning a forum like flyertalk shows that most airlines basically refuse to voluntarily honor this law without being forced to in court (not even the threat of a lawsuit will get them to pay, you actually have to file it).

rahimnathwani2• 2 years ago

Swiss Airlines also owed me a bunch of money years ago, but I gave up chasing them. I should have used one of the services that takes 25%. 75% is better than zero!

osculum• 2 years ago

Counterpoint, it has happened to me twice, once with Lufthansa and another time with a low cost airline (Vueling). Both times I was paid without fuss. Both times I filed for it myself.

seer2• 2 years ago

Any flight originating from EU territory is subject to this law, regardless where its other legs are.

I once had a flight Bulgaria -> Moscow -> South Korea, and the second leg got delayed for 6 hours, resulting in a very miserable experience.

Because I was sleep deprived and had no idea what my rights were, I accepted the $20 “compensatory voucher” that they offered and thought the matter was closed.

Sometime after I got back, a company contacted me saying they will issue a court case on my behalf getting the €800 from the airline (2 passengers). Such companies thrive under the “loser pays” system in europe as they just take on those slam dunk cases and have their expenses compensated.

Long story short after about 2 years of going through courts I got the money (minus the 30% fee from the company), and all I did was answer 2 emails and wait it out.

doix• 2 years ago

I have claimed thousands of euros since 2018(ish) and never had a single issue. I definitely believe that airlines can try to avoid paying it, but I don't think it's as common as you make it out to be.

The only people on flyertalk will be the people that do have issues. People that don't have issues won't go there to post that everything is fine (e.g. me).

I have never dealt with any emails, the airlines I've dealt with always have a form on their website to claim compensation. I fill it in and in a week or two I get the money. Swiss has one too[0].

I pretty much always try and book the shortest layovers possible if I'm not in a rush and the airline will sell me the ticket. 55 minute layover in Heathrow? Let's go! There's probably a 50% chance that I miss that connection and get compensated.

[0] https://www.swiss.com/de/en/customer-support/contact-us/appl...

big_man_ting• 2 years ago

Indeed, if you try to get them to refund you by yourself, they will keep saying that it was out of their control. But I've gotten several refunds over the past years by going through one of several companies who specialize in getting airlines to give refunds. Granted they take a % cut, but you still get most of it without lifting a finger.

Goz3rr• 2 years ago

Every time it has happened to me the airline paid out quickly without any fuss. Once with KLM the plane broke over Siberia, they flew back and put me on a flight the next day. I got my 600 eur compensation and also the cost of two train tickets for the extra trip between home/airport and they didn't even ask for receipts.

For the longest time Ryanair actually gave me more money than I spent with them on tickets.

camillomiller4• 2 years ago

Untrue. It's mandatory to have processes in place. I was refunded once by Swiss within 4 days after applying to their online form. I will be refunded by Easyjet within the next week for a flight I took last Tuesday. This law, like the one on carriers roaming, are clear and strong EU successes.

jakub_g• 2 years ago

Anecdata but I went with the process once with Lufthansa (EU internal flight) and once with Delta (flight from EU to US) and in both cases got my 300/600e compensation in a few days via a bank transfer, no questions asked, no 3p company needed. I just sent an email with flight data and my personal data.

account428• 2 years ago

I have a 200 long thread email chain spanning years with no progress. You can use services like Airhelp to get a refund but they take a huge commission and I am too stubborn to give in that way. Luckily the statute of limitations on these claims is 6 years so I have enough time to figure out how to make a complaint to the Swiss aviation authority.

The legal route might have a long satute of limitations but you should still not let a company stall for this long and instead file a dispute with the payment provider as soon as the company is being uncooperative.

TheAlchemist2• 2 years ago

The law is very good, but unfortunately in practice it can be much harder to get the compensation.

My mum had a significantly delayed flight - she should get 400 euros. 18 months after, she still has nothing - on the phone, they just say that the relevant departement will look into it but they don't answer to customers directly, and emails are just ignored.

We did contact the relevant governement agency - they say the current wait time for them to do something is >12 months.

It seems there is a business of law agencies specializing in extracting those compensations - but they take a big cut.

switch0075• 2 years ago

It's basically internal policy for many airlines to only pay out when an official dispute resolution or small claims court process is started/won.

account428• 2 years ago

Did you file a dispute with your payment provider and/or small claims court?

cycomanic• 2 years ago

Just to clarify, any flight which originated in the EU for any airline, or any flight coming into the EU operated by a EU airline (important for codesharing the operating airline counts not the issuing). Also the amount of compensation depends on delay and overall length of travel.

I have purposefully been only booking on EU airline operated flights only after having been bitten twice before where I missed a connection and had to wait 7h (my home airport has only very few flights to the major intercontinental hubs, meaning any connection delay ends hub being quite significant). I have collected several thousand euros in delay compensation since then (multiple airlines) , never had to fight the airline to get it, simply filling in a form.

tauntz• 2 years ago

Yeah, that doesn't work in practice rather frequently.

I was traveling 2 years ago with 4 people - flight was delayed enough that we were entitled to a 600EUR per person compensation (2400EUR in total, which is already something..).

The captain of the delayed flight said that the delay was due to a previous delay in some other airport of the same aircraft due to some "traffic jam" (= not due to weather). However, when requesting the compensation, I was immediately shut down by the airline that this delay was due to "unforeseen circumstances" and what that exactly was, is a business secret that they can't disclose (wth?). They essentially told me to get lost and I'm free to file a complaint/dispute with the consumer protection agency.

I reached out to the Italian consumer protection agency (idk what the exact name was) who according to EU rules is responsible for solving these disputes but they never answer to emails or to the online form that they have for these disputes. The EU wide organization that deals with these topics says that they can't do anything and only the Italian consumer protection agency as the authority to deal with this.. but they are ghosting me.

aqme283• 2 years ago

KLM made it really really hard to get compensated for a few flights that they canceled. Ended up going to a company that exists only to litigate these

joemazerino• 2 years ago

Step in the right direction.

test6554• 2 years ago

Refund?? What someone paid for their ticket is not relevant. To be made whole someone needs to be given the current market value of their flight.

If I purchased a ticket for $399 but a comparable ticket now costs $799, I can't buy a new ticket with that refund.

dghlsakjg• 2 years ago

A lot better than what was happening before, which is issuing airline specific expiring vouchers

paxys3• 2 years ago

They already offer to rebook you. Refund is for the cases where you don't want the flight at all.

elhudy• 2 years ago

They only offer to rebook you on a flight in their own fleet though. E.g. i have been canceled on united due to “bad weather” halfway through a segment and was made to wait 4 days until the next united flight (there was a huge backlog). Instead, since i was stranded and absolutely needed to get to my destination, i had to buy a delta flight leaving that same night for $700 more than market value. United refused to compensate me for this. It’s bullshit.

Edit: oh by the way, i didn’t get refunded for the segment that flew me across the nation just to stand me in denver. The refund was prorated And only counted for the second segment.

Anyone who doesn’t think airlines need more regulations on cancellations and refunds clearly hasn’t flown regularly.

alkonaut6• 2 years ago

If you choose a refund that would be because you opted not to take the flight at all. Assuming it was your outbound flight, that can be reasonable. If it's a return or connecting flight you might have to re-route, in which case a refund might not cover your alternative. This sort of thing really needs a lot of interpretive guidelines. E.g. the EC 261 guidelines are excellent in clarifying this.

re-routing should be offered at no additional cost to the passenger, even where passengers are re-routed with another air carrier or on a different transport mode or in a higher class or at a higher fare(...)

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:52...

In practice I believe this is usually applied like "If there is availability on the same day on the original airline then book that, else the first available flight on a different airline". Of course in the first case the airline is also on the line for the hotel costs etc.

I don't think the US regulation has the same sort of teeth (yet) but it should at least be made clear. For flights, booking an alternative flight is invariably going to be a lot more expensive than the original one. And regulation that only reimburses the original fare, allows rerouting on the same airline, or doesn't offer cash compensation in addition to sorting out the journey, is pretty bad even if it's a step in the right direction.

metabagel3• 2 years ago

They should set a minimum seat pitch of 32" for shorthaul flights and 34" for medium and longhaul flights.

switch0075• 2 years ago

Economy has to be uncomfortable to upsell to premium economy and business. Huge demand for those cabins and massive money makers. There will never be a minimum seat pitch regulation unless directly and obviously related to safety

dfadsadsf• 2 years ago

Just pay up for comfort+ seats if you are in US - they are generally pretty affordable.

Much bigger problem is that in EU you get 28” pitch on BUSINESS class seats! The only difference is that middle seat is blocked. This frankly should be illegal.

ProfessorLayton• 2 years ago

I suppose it should be noted that refundable tickets have been a thing in the US, however, they were/are a lot more expensive than 'regular' tickets.

Still, this is a step in the right direction.

wtallis• 2 years ago

I think refundable tickets that are more expensive mean you can get a refund when you cancel, rather than being about when the airline cancels on you.

thfuran4• 2 years ago

Yes, that's what they are.

readyman2• 2 years ago

The DOT rules lay out that passengers will be "entitled to a refund if their flight is canceled or significantly changed, and they do not accept alternative transportation or travel credits offered."

"Alternative transportation or travel credits" it will be, they will be useless. Nothing has fundamentally changed.

whyenot• 2 years ago

If they are "useless," then people won't "accept" them, and per what you quoted they are entitled to a refund.

jpalawaga• 2 years ago

huh? all this is saying is that if you accept a rebooked flight, you don't also get a refund.

or if they offer you 10k miles or travel credit, and you accept, you don't also get a refund.

the point is, a refund to original form of payment is the default.

please stop posting your misinformed reading of the text through the thread.

LukeShu• 2 years ago

I think you're reading that backward.

I'm reading it as:

- (think the alt-transport or credits are good) -> accept -> don't get refunded

- (think the alt-transport or credits are worthless) -> do not accept -> get refunded

alkonaut6• 2 years ago

You already posted this complete misreading of the text you quoted in a different reply. At least read it once if you are going to quote it twice.

atum47• 2 years ago

United cancelled a very important flight after delaying it several times during the day. They did not provide me any accomodations or new flights, the lady who was talking to us regarding the situation just left saying "access the app to book a new flight" - I kind of understand her position, it was not her fault but she would be the one getting screamed at by rude passengers. Long story short, I paid for my own accomodation, my own dinner and on the other day I was able to go back to the airport and find someone who helped me get another flight.

When I got back to Brazil I took united to the small claims court and got my money back plus some.

gooseyman• 2 years ago

Small claims court is the future of airline customer service.

My dad recently filed in small claims for lost luggage after the realization there was no phone number for a human to speak with as everything is “live” chat where each chat takes ten minutes for a response. The check came in the mail days after notification of filing.

Granted it was a budget airline, but it’s not that different from waiting on hold to get transferred.

kylehotchkiss• 2 years ago

I had no idea small claims court could be so productive. Did you write your own petition or did you use a service to help compile it? Do you have to handle giving the receiving party their documents or does the court do that?

sakjur2• 2 years ago

I have a similar experience, where I was originally denied a refund I was entitled to per EU’s passenger’s rights regulation (261/2004) and reported it to the national ombudsman for consumer rights and having them agree to pay up immediately.

This was also a budget airline (Norwegian). I’m pretty sure they’re trying to deny claims as a rule. They were making an excuse that isn’t a valid force majeure (the airplane needed emergency servicing).

My experience with Scandinavian has been the exact opposite, I pretty much just inform them of which flight I was on and that I’m interested in compensation and that’s it. Though this was pre-COVID and reconstruction.

bluedemon• 2 years ago

Nice. I like the refund more than the vouchers. Good job Biden team: https://apnews.com/article/airlines-junk-fees-baggage-delays...

srid2• 2 years ago

Neither the title nor the post body makes it clear. Is this limited to USA?

What about airlines in other countries? Like Air Canada from Canada, and Lufthansa from Germany?

poizan422• 2 years ago

..., and Lufthansa from Germany

EU has much more strict rules. The airline must not only refund you, but compensate you too if the flight was cancelled less than 14 days before departure and the cancellation wasn't due to extraordinary circumstances. I.e. heavy rain and storm or a volcano eruption the airline could not have done anything to complete the flight in spite of. Stuff like technical problems or a strike [1] is generally 100% on the airline.

See https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right... for the details.

[1] Strikes internal to the airline, i.e. by airline staff. Strikes external to the airline may in some cases count as extraordinary circumstances.

sccxy• 2 years ago

I had to fight with Lufthansa for a year to get reimbursed for hotels & new tickets.

They closed all service desks after flight cancellation (no strike, just their crew planning issues) and sign told us to find own flights and hotels.

Few months later I went to this service desk again in Frankfurt, their response was "Go get a lawyer, we wont help with old cases"

Thankfully soep-online.de helped to get all money reimbursed but it took 13 months.

srid2• 2 years ago

What about delayed flights? My international Lufthansa flight arrived late enough to make me miss my next flight (Air Canada - who then compensated me with a $300 voucher and meal coupon).

cute_boi• 2 years ago

Good news.

rgovostes• 2 years ago

Tangential gripe: I recently flew to SFO for a weekend. In both directions I was significantly delayed due to construction on one of the runways limiting the number of planes that could land per hour.

It doesn’t seem like it ought to have been legal to sell me a ticket claiming departure and arrival times that were extremely unrealistic. United knew the construction was happening, I did not.

I was given the option to refund my ticket but it would have canceled the return flight as well, and last minute flights to SJC instead were prohibitively expensive.

The EU’s policy of forcing airlines to compensate travelers for delays seems like it better incentivizes the airlines to improve service.

fuzzybear3965• 2 years ago

Wait. Am I missing something? Isn't that ~90m of car time assuming mild traffic?

Macha• 2 years ago

I don't think they were flying SFO to SJC, rather they considered rebooking to SJC to avoid the delays at SFO

cbhl• 2 years ago

When SFO is operating on only one of its two runways (common due to low clouds, now due to runway construction) then 3h+ delays are par for the course for flights in the evening.

toast0• 2 years ago

How long in advance was the construction scheduled?

eiiot• 2 years ago

A while - they’ve had the construction on 28L for a few months; now it’s actually construction on Taxiway B, which requires the use of 28L as a taxiway.

Edit: just checked the NOTAMs and it’s been this way since January 18th, and expires on May 28th. Plenty of time for airlines to get their act together.

mullingitover• 2 years ago

Side note: Wow, ABC News is still on go.com. I worked at Disney from 2006-2015 and most people were baffled about what the heck go.com even was, and why things like ESPN, ABC, and a bunch of other big Disney properties were subdomains of it. It has a history going back to 22 years ago[1] when Disney tried running a portal with a search engine and email hosting. ESPN got off it in 2016, but I'm honestly shocked that ABC news isn't able to. Apparently it boils down to SEO?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go.com

nunez2• 2 years ago

I used go.com all of the time as a kid in the 90s, mostly to test that Internet was up, but they had some games there that were cool

sokoloff5• 2 years ago

JetBlue accepted the reservation for my 14 year old (the minimum age for JetBlue to take a minor as an adult). They were code sharing that flight with American, who requires a minor to be 15.

So, JetBlue took the money for a service they knew they could not provide (but I didn’t, having read the various airline rules and settled on JetBlue as a result). When it came time to fly, American wouldn’t carry them (now 700 miles away from the family) and JetBlue wanted to keep the money, offering a JB credit expiring in 1 year.

All I did was get a JetBlue customer care agent to confirm they would not issue a refund and took that screenshot to my credit card company who approved the chargeback.

We ended up having to pay the unaccompanied minor fees and aggravation on both ends to get them home on Delta, who is at least in the linked business of selling tickets and actually transporting passengers on those tickets, while JetBlue is better at the former than the latter.

mrandish4• 2 years ago

Yes, as the parent of a 14 year-old currently attending boarding school in Europe, the way that many airlines have in recent years increased their minimum age rules to fly unaccompanied creates huge problems and costs. We've had to become experts in code share logistics because, for example, Swiss Air will happily accept 13 and above but they code share flights with Lufthansa who requires 15. Whether your kid can board the flight depends on which airline's code is used for the flight number, and it's not always clear on the airline's own websites (much less other sites), despite being the same seat on the same plane.

The real mess happens when a flight is cancelled and the airline rebooks passengers already in-route. Last year our kid was on an Iceland Air route in a connecting city when they cancelled the next leg. Someone at their flight operations center "helpfully" rebooked the ticket to a British Air flight leaving that city an hour later, except BA has a 14 limit and denied boarding (kid was a few weeks shy of 14 at the time). In fact, the BA gate agents couldn't even understand how it was possible for a 13 year-old to be issued a ticket (because it was done in the back-end inter-airline system). So our kid ends up stranded in a distant connecting city. We ultimately had to buy a last-minute one-way ticket on a third airline to a different city for a connection on an airline that would board her. It took months of calls to eventually get a refund from Iceland Air for a multi-thousand dollar business class ticket, on a flight they cancelled. (note: For anyone concerned, our kid is a hyper-savvy frequent flyer who grew up flying international routes. Also, for international routes we always book her business class in an isolated seat that's in its own row right next to the crew galley.)

We have a friend who's kid goes to a boarding school in the U.S. (but on the opposite coast). All the major U.S airlines now have 15 or 16 age limits. For spring break a few weeks ago, they had no choice but for one parent to fly across the country and back, both ways, just to "accompany" their kid past the gate boarding agents. Because almost all U.S airlines are now unaccompanied kid hostile, our kid can't even connect internationally from our local airport. Instead we have to drive her three hours to an airport that international airlines fly direct from.

CaliforniaKarl• 2 years ago

Please clarify something for me, about major US airlines having 15 or 16 age limits.

Per https://www.united.com/en/us/fly/travel/accessibility-and-as..., it seems like they’ll accept unaccompanied minors potentially as young as 5.

petesergeant• 2 years ago

I did a lot of ~12 hour unaccompanied flights when I was 10, to and from school, although I was lucky that the school was close enough to Heathrow that it was only single legs (albeit ~14 hrs).

for international routes we always book her business class

jeez, my parents would stick me in coach even if they were in F on the same flight, however long the flight was.

kapildev• 2 years ago

Buttigieg said the DOT is also protecting airline passengers from being surprised by hidden fees -- a move he estimates will have Americans billions of dollars every year.

I think I am seeing more mis-spellings in news nowadays.

ultimoo• 2 years ago

Wouldn’t the airlines simply hike up fares to price this in? Is there regulation that caps how much flights cost?

failbuffer• 2 years ago

What you have right now is a situation where airlines compete stiffly on sticker prices and then find ways to screw you on the backend. You save money if you're lucky, but it's because you're getting a hidden subsidy from people whose flights were cancelled.

sdeframond• 2 years ago

For reference, here is what Europe has been doing for a few years: mandatory refund plus distance-based compensation.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right...

ChrisArchitect• 2 years ago

Official Transportation release: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40146124

hi-v-rocknroll• 2 years ago

They'll just do what they already do: change gates 12 times in 5 hours making customers move pointlessly because they don't have a plane or crew.

paxys3• 2 years ago

I wish we could have election year Biden every year.

cush• 2 years ago

Wait, they weren't required to refund before...?

onthecanposting2• 2 years ago

Would it be fair to say that civilian aviation is in a doom loop at this point? Margins get tight, quality falls, government increases cost of compliance, margins get tighter, quality falls, government saves the consumer again...?

WhatIsAModel• 2 years ago

Peter Thiel discusses this same doom loop and some of your points in this lecture that I highly recommend: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fx5Q8xGU8k

onthecanposting2• 2 years ago

I wish I had listened to this a long time ago. That starting so niche nobody bothers you is a winning strategy would not have occurred to me. Thanks for sharing!

nunez2• 2 years ago

My takes:

1. This is going to shutter a few more regional airlines, as they will deem it unprofitable to issue refunds over flying emptier planes.

2. This will encourage rolling delays even more.

dclowd99013• 2 years ago

Not sure I follow your reasoning on 2

alkonaut6• 2 years ago

2: In the past you might sacrifice 1 flight completely (24h delay) to get 9 flights on time. Now you'd rather make all 10 flights have shorter delays and all stay below some refund threshold.

Krasnol• 2 years ago

If your margins are so low that you depend on this, you should quit.

Also, good for the environment.

ken47• 2 years ago

This seems too good to be true?

felipellrocha• 2 years ago

...were they not required to do that before...?

davisonio• 2 years ago

USA didn't have this rule beforehand? confused in EU

Ekaros• 2 years ago

Always remember that USA simply does not care about consumers. It is all about shareholder and stock market values. From slavery to any type of safety.

pb74• 2 years ago

And yet I get better customer service from US companies than European companies. Funny how that works.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK• 2 years ago

What about connections? Will they also refund the missed flight + hotel stay? My $100 flight was once delayed and I missed the $700 connecting flight. Airline gave me next day $700 ticket and put me in a hotel. Shall I just receive $100 under that new rule?

darkwizard42• 2 years ago

Well, assuming you booked this as one ticket (the two were with the same airline) then usually they will refund everything. I assume that isn't changing

However, if you have two airlines and one failed to get you to the airport for the second flight, the second airline doesn't owe you any compensation, but the first will.

thedevguy210• 2 years ago

Two years ago ( after covid ) when the airline booked me on a another flight from London to Barcelona, the rebooked flight got cancelled… they lost my luggage for over a month ( because it was as loaded on the first flight ) the only thing I received was an apology… + 600 euros mandatory refund

jlubawy• 2 years ago

I think we all know that airlines overbook, or cancel flights if not enough people are on a flight to make it economically viable.

At a minimum they should be required to provide the odds of a flight to be delayed or canceled before the day-of to allow customers to reschedule ahead of time to get to their destination on time.

Refund of money doesn't matter when you have a place to be at a certain time, especially if you plan months in advance, only to find out 3 hours ahead of time (and at 3:30am in the morning) that your planned flight for months is suddenly canceled for "non-operation".

Literally on a cross-country vacation right now where this is the second time that a flight has been delayed/canceled on me in the past two years (American Airlines). I want to be a loyal customer, but this feels very one sided, and any monetary recourse certainly isn't enough when you hsve a place to be at a certain time (and aren't informed that it's possible you won't make it there, or else worst case you can drive)

ornornor8• 2 years ago

There are very few consumer experiences as miserable as air travel these days. It’s just a joke.

Plane not full enough to make a big enough profit? Cancel the flight. Reroute the flight. Delay the luggage. Force passenger to check hand luggage in. Charge for every single possible thing.

I abhor flying. It makes me hate myself.

Turkish Airlines delayed us 2 days which we had to spend in the shittiest hotel they could find for the first night and then in the airport itself for the second night (not even giving us lounge access). They’re arguing the delay was only 7 minutes (seriously) and won’t do anything at all. It’s been 9 months of battle involving lawyers and they still won’t pay anything.

This is a step in the right direction but airlines still have a long way to go.

It feels like they used the pandemic to “push the envelope” and see how much more abuse customers will take, and set this as their new standard service level. AFAIK they also never rehired all the people they laid off which partly explains the sharp drop in quality.

Or maybe this is exactly what the world needs given how polluting and damaging flying is, I just didn’t expect it would be the airlines themselves doing all they can to discourage people from flying.

Luckily, in Europe, you can still visit a lot of beautiful places by train without the aggravation of flying. And when accounting for door to door times, flying isn’t that much faster anyway.

switch0075• 2 years ago

It feels like they used the pandemic to “push the envelope” and see how much more abuse customers will take, and set this as their new standard service level.

100 percent this. Like prior recessions, but even worse. With each recession we bounce back economically on the surface but the cuts they make rarely get reversed.

valval• 2 years ago

I've flown some 20 commercial flights in the last year and never faced any of the issues you've described. I find flying quite fun to this day. Perhaps this is highly regional.

maccard2• 2 years ago

Some carriers are definitely worse than others. I’ve flown about the same as you but over 10 years, and I’ve had OP’s experience once. We were stuck on the runway for 6 hours, given food vouchers that nowhere in the airport would accept, and then 10 hours after we were supposed to take off they told us our flight was cancelled and they’d organise accommodation. Except there was a huge concert on in the the city that day, so there was nowhere nearby. They left us in the airport with a “sorry” and no food.

Thankfully, I lived in said city so we went home and came back the following day. One email to the airline gave us £800 in compensation, plus the cost of our food and Ubers back and forth. Our travel insurance paid out for most of the things we missed out on like the hotel night, events we had planned, prebooked meal, and even our airport parking (which we did technically use). We were done and dusted with it within 7 days.

baby• 2 years ago

From my point of view you are really lucky, or you’re always flying the same stable routes.

michaelt• 2 years ago

A lot of the things I hate about flying are things that other people might well be fine with.

When someone tells me to arrive 3 hours before my scheduled departure time, to me it's disrespectful that they would waste so much of my time so unapologetically.

Other people might see it as no big thing, an enjoyable chance to sit and read, or do some people-watching, or a comforting safety margin.

When someone tells me to take off my shoes and belt and shuffle through a metal detector while they take my wallet and keys out of sight, under the constant threat of even more intrusive searches - to me that's extremely undignified. There's no other situation in my life where people can control what I wear, or presume to separate me from my keys and wallet.

Other people might feel reassured by the process, or see it as no different to going to a swimming pool.

When someone demands I walk a needlessly winding path through a maze of tawdry shops selling overpriced perfume, to arrive at an uncomfortable seat surrounded by garish billboards.... you get the picture.

TheChaplain• 2 years ago

Plane not full enough to make a big enough profit?

I don't think margins are as large as you think they are... I checked Lufthansas 2023 income report and they made 6m EUR. For a company that size it's.. not impressive.

And flying a plane from point A to point B involves a huge amount of staff both onground and and in air, so cancelling a flight because it makes a loss or not enough is no surprise.

And when accounting for door to door times, flying isn’t that much faster anyway.

I got a few days off work (finally) to go to Italy with the girlfriend. Total flight time is 4 hours with one stop.

Shortest train time is 26 hours, with 3 train changes.

ornornor8• 2 years ago

The margins are not that big, yes. But it’s also part of the deal: I buy a ticket to fly somewhere, not for a gamble that on the day of the flight the airline will choose to disrupt my plans and cancel the flight because they’re not making money after all. You can’t have your cake and eat it, it used to be that sometimes they make money sometimes they don’t. Nowadays they cancel flights routinely because they prefer to screw you than sometimes make little or no money on certain flights. They want to win every time now at the traveler’s expense.

Shortest train time is 26 hours, with 3 train changes.

Not saying this works every time from anywhere to anywhere. I’ll personally reconsider my destination if I can’t get there with a train but that because of how much I hate flying.

I’ve also done 8–9h on the train, booked a first class ticket, and worked most of that time so that my travel time counted as paid work hours. Then I didn’t have to worry about how much toothpaste I have in my luggage, what the size of my carry on is, whether my bags will make it to the destination at the same time as I do, whether the seat will be too narrow with no legroom or just merely uncomfortable, figure out how to get out of the airport and to my actual destination without getting ripped off… it’s no contest for me. Not saying it’s the same for everyone obviously, just laying out my thought process for others to think about theirs.

Not mentioning pollution of course. The train emits much much less CO2 per distance traveled, makes less noise, less waste (all these single use utensils and boxes the food comes in).

fransje26• 2 years ago

I checked Lufthansa's 2023 income report and they made 6m EUR.

That's not what I found? [1] The article states:

    The company more than doubled its net profit to 1.7 billion euros (previous year: 790 million euros).

[1] https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/en/lufthansa-group-gener...

dindobre• 2 years ago

Had a similar experience with Turkish Airlines, and I definitively agree on avoiding planes as much as possible, long-distance trains all the way.

ornornor8• 2 years ago

From asking around (I had a loooot of time to waste in IST), TK routinely strands hundreds of people everyday at IST. That’s just how they operate and the treatment we received isn’t unusual.

It was seriously the worst experience I’ve ever had. Rude staff, no explanations, outright lies, condescending tone, hours long queues for meal vouchers that arent accepted annywhere or to get a crappy hotel for a few hours only, and just plain incompetence. I will never fly TK again, that’s how bad it was.

account428• 2 years ago

Too bad that here the trains are even less reliable and often even more expensive than flying.

csomar• 2 years ago

It's really sad. They used to be a good airline. They went downhill faster than the Turkish Economy.

fen4o• 2 years ago

We were 5 people (3 different reservations) traveling from EU to Japan for a ski vacation. Our first flight got canceled due to technical issues with the airplane and we could not get another flight to reach the transfer from Istanbul to Tokyo. We had to get a new flight that delayed our arrival date by 1 day. The worst thing is that they didn't rescheduled our domestic flight from Tokyo to Sapporo.

We went to the check-in for our flight to Sapporo and the staff told us that our flight was actually yesterday... Not wanting to waste another minute with Turkish Airlines support I opened my laptop and got us a new flight and luckily there was a flight in 2 hours.

As our flight was flying off from EU we were covered by the EU rights and all of us got full compensation for the delay - 600 Euro (420 at the end as we used 3rd party to handle it).

Now I'm trying to get full reimbursement for the flight from Tokyo to Sapporo as I payed for it out of pocket. They are arguing that each of us should have an individual invoice and we should have not bought group tickets. For this reason I would highly recommend to use 3rd party (they take between 25-30% commission) just not to deal with airline BS.

dvno42• 2 years ago

A 3rd party to deal with the airline on your behalf? Is this a service or an attorney? I'd pay a portion of a refund to handle that mess every time.

sparsely• 2 years ago

Customers for economy class seats are very price sensitive - if you were enjoying the experience then the airline wouldn't be cutting the services offered close enough to the bone to offer a competitive price.

You can pay for a slightly better experience, but it's very expensive!

alephnerd• 2 years ago

Tbf, Turkish Airlines is notoriously bad.

I also detest the Istanbul Airport with the bottom of my heart. Everything is overpriced and subpar in quality - unsurprising given that the entire airport project turned into a large graft by AKP affiliated industrialists.

ornornor8• 2 years ago

I for one had no idea they were so bad until I had the pleasure to experience flying with them. I now try and warn everyone who will listen to pick any airline but TK.

bootlooped• 2 years ago

Force passenger to check hand luggage in.

For the most part, this is on the passengers. Everybody wants to bring the largest hard sided rolling luggage that could possibly be a carry-on these days. Those things take up space in the overhead bins very inefficiently, and the planes weren't made with that amount of carry-on capacity per passenger.

But something I thought of the other day is that when they start gate checking bags, it means they sold too many tickets that include a full size carry-on, right? Counterpoint would be that the later boarding groups implicitly may have to gate check their bags, and that's why they're cheaper.

I'm pretty adamant that most people should use soft travel backpacks or duffel bags. The proliferation of hard sided rolling luggage as a carry-on is a scourge.

malfist• 2 years ago

Those carry on wouldn't have to be so large if.

* Airlines didn't charge so much for checked luggage

* Airlines didn't routinely lose checked luggage

* Airlines didn't routinely mishandle checked luggage, ripping bags, damaging contents and scuffing or tearing off wheels.

* Airlines didn't deny luggage repairs/replacements for damaged ones.

I've had Delta punch a hole through a hardshell suitcase with an aluminum frame and deny that it was damaged "beyond normal wear and tear"

ornornor8• 2 years ago

I don’t think this is on the passengers. If checking luggage in wasn’t an extra fee (often), didn’t carry a material risk to have your luggage lost, damaged, late, stolen, and didn’t mean spending an extra 30–60 minutes waiting to collect it then I’d bet a lot more people would check luggage in.

acdha• 2 years ago

Everybody wants to bring the largest hard sided rolling luggage that could possibly be a carry-on these days.

This was far, far less common before they started charging for checked bags. Once they made that an upsell opportunity, people started behaving in exactly the way airline policies encouraged.

The other big reason is the airlines choosing to ignore baggage theft. I had a bag stolen out of SFO and they tried to first disclaim responsibility and then offered to reimburse it at like $2/pound, which again means that they’re giving customers a financial incentive to carry everything into the cabin.

cainxinth• 2 years ago

What’s interesting about air travel is that it’s both a bad customer experience and expensive. I’m routinely paying several hundred dollars for a two hour flight that is cramped, delayed, and where passengers are shunted around like chattel.

Usually, when you pay through the nose for something, you at least get treated well.

frantathefranta• 2 years ago

Yeah it's much easier to deal with terrible service when your return ticket with Ryanair doesn't cost more than 20 EUR. In the meantime the cheapest flight I was on in the US still cost $200.

gruez2• 2 years ago

Is it expensive on an absolute basis or on a relative basis? If getting a metal tube to fly through the air at 500 mph is expensive, then we shouldn't expect that you get a luxury experience just because the ticket price is $200 or whatever.

Also, I checked on google flights and a 2 hour flight is roughly equal to an 11 hour drive. Even if you factor in arriving 3 hours early for departure and 1 hour to get to your final destination, the time savings alone is worth most of the cost of the trip. If you factor in gas/wear on your car it's a no-brainer, even if it's "expensive".

[1] Chicago to washington DC

[2] $200 round trip, $100 for one way, 5 hours * $15/hour = $75

smusamashah2• 2 years ago

I am living in UK atm where some regulation allows claiming certain amount based on distance and delayed hours. I was entitled to more than flights cost for a delayed Turkish Airlines flight.

I used an online service (airhelp) to claim it. They initially took 35% as their fee. After around 4-5 months the airline rejected the claim and lawyers from airhelp stepped in which made their fee 50%. It took 7-8 more months, total 1 year, to get 50% of my claim back (~800£) using a third party service.

Given how complicated it is to fille a claim, even if I did it myself I would have given up on first rejection. I hope this law expands beyond US.

aiiotnoodle• 2 years ago

Did airhelp talk to aviation ADR do you know? We've Just essentially lost based on what we provided but still think we're owed compensation really. Just absolutely exhausted doing all the admin. Originally went with resolver but they did nothing. I think aviation ADR is our last course of action unless we actually sued them, do you know if you did that?

smusamashah2• 2 years ago

I dont know whats ADR. All I did was put all relevant details/docs on airhelp. They sent another email when lawyer stepped in and I got email from lawyer too but that's about it.

Nextgrid2• 2 years ago

I hope this law expands beyond US

Pretty sure there is already a law. It's an EU law but I believe it was backported to the UK after Brexit.

The problem is that unless there is good enforcement and proactive auditing of compliance it is no good. In this case there is near-zero enforcement so a law merely being on the books doesn't help.

gnegggh• 2 years ago

If you depart from anywhere in the EU you always have this.

jorisboris2• 2 years ago

Europe has had this for years and imo it keeps the airlines pretty good in check

As often with eu regulations there are a couple of loopholes so you have to watch out nevertheless (eg force majeur like bird strikes doesn’t count, or when the flight is delayed to next day they have to pay your food and hotel but I decided to book another flight and then they don’t have to pay anything back except the fixed fee which I didn’t know…)

qngcdvy• 2 years ago

Fun Fact: Air traffic controller strikes also count as force majeur

Actually, once my flight (to Europe) was delayed by like 4h because they had an air traffic controller strike in another country THE NEXT DAY and kind of shuffled their plane fleet across the continent to make it work. Airline denied me my (i think it was 600 Euros) compensation using the force majeur strike argument. That was the only time I went to one of those services that went to court for me for like 30% of my claim. They really did go almost all the way until the airline took the very last exit before a trial.

Sometimes I like consumer rights.

aqme283• 2 years ago

I believe security staff strikes also qualify. I got burned by that one via KLM

MaxikCZ2• 2 years ago

I feel like airline setting up "one of those services" would still allow to save them money hah

switch0075• 2 years ago

The French controllers strike so often it's hardly unexpected (yesterday/today I believe!). But I agree it's largely out of the airlines' control. But it's a well known issue of many years and should be a part of doing business

I would want compensation from the controllers' bosses (French government?)

MaxikCZ2• 2 years ago

Family member and I were flying from America to Germany, having connecting flight to Czech. Our first flight departed few hours later, and during the flight Condor cancelled our connecting flight because we wouldnt have enough time to transfer. We actually sprinted across the airport and made it to an open gate, but our tickets wouldnt work, all while watching people from other flights board normally.

We were directed to their kiosk, where after 2 hours of waiting and 2 hours of explaining/negotiating we were rebooked on a flight next day, with "all our airport and contract accomodations are full, find your own one, condor will refund". Spent the night in €700/night hotel (fourth I called, first to actually had rooms).

Afterwards we sent all info/invoices throug mail. First reply: we refund your expenses, but not flight compensation ($600 per person), because the delay was not our fault, the delay was less than 4(6?) hours, and (despite the flight landing in EU, which is all it takes for EU legislation to apply) the flight is not covered by EU legislation, because it originated from outside EU.

Sent extempt from law saying they have to pay us, or we will involve layers. Next email said they will issue full requested refund (which they did).

So, apart from having to threaten with legal action and having to know our rights trough Condor lies, pretty good outcome.

codethief• 2 years ago

(despite the flight landing in EU, which is all it takes for EU legislation to apply)

There is a second condition, which in your case (Condor) seemed to fulfilled, though:

EU air passenger rights apply:
If your flight arrives in the EU from outside the EU and is operated by an EU airline

(Emphasis mine; source: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-right...)

I recently ran into this when I was flying from the US to Europe with United and they canceled my flight and put me on a different one that arrived half a day later. -> Nothing I could do because I incurred no tangible costs (no additional hotel stay etc.) other than losing time and starting work the next morning completely jet-lagged.

It really is beyond me why the EU holds European airlines to a much higher standard than foreign ones which, effectively, works as a subsidy for foreign airlines flying to/from Europe.

switch0075• 2 years ago

The exemptions are the first hurdle. Airlines are getting sick of compensation and often won’t pay until the day before the court date. And in some countries you must follow a procedure and depend on government officials, but they may ghost you for a year (maybe in cahoots or legitimately backlogged)

I always get downvoted for saying anything negative about EU consumer protection…but the protections are so well known and claimed, that it’s hurting airlines financially so they devise strategies. The politicians know this. Absolutely they do. The protections are only as good as how easy they are to claim

And anyway we are basically paying for this insurance anyway through increased fares and fees and baggage costs etc.

odiroot• 2 years ago

If anything this causes the airlines to be extra cynical and try their hardest to keep the delay within the 3h window. Whatever it takes not to be liable.

sksksk• 2 years ago

They also employ what I call the "slow drip"...

An aircraft is out of position, so the flight is definitely going to be cancelled, but instead of cancelling the flight, every 10 minutes, they'll announce a further 10 minute delay to the flight.

If you get frustrated and leave before its officially cancelled, there's no compensation to pay.

The moment it hits 3 hours, and compensation will have to be paid, the flight is suddenly cancelled.

snowpid• 2 years ago

flight regulation or its cases against canceled fligths is so common in Europe it is the example of automatic law or law tech. https://www.flightright.de/#

Halan2• 2 years ago

Anyone from EU/UK will laugh at this news

aembleton2• 2 years ago

Why? I'm from the UK and I think this is a good thing. The more that it is normalised that you should get refunds for delays the better. AirTransat cancelled my flight leaving the UK a few years ago and refused to refund it. I pointed out the regulations and they just said they won't refund so I had to do a chargeback. That worked; but it would be good to see airlines build refunds in to their processes.

Halan2• 2 years ago

Of course it is a good thing but nevertheless funny because it is something we take for granted. We are also used to get a compensation on top of the refund.

Btw escalate it to CAA and they will handle this. Not only you will get a refund but the compensation as well

camillomiller4• 2 years ago

LOL, we have this in Europe for ages. Where are the EU-haters today?

Just yesterday I got confirmation of an EasyJet refund for a flight that arrived 4 hours late due to an engine problem during the previous flight.

250€ in my bank account within 7 days from the flight. The flight had costed me 130€. I flew for a profit.

EU works.

pb74• 2 years ago

That flight was 1/8 of your paycheck.

sofixa3• 2 years ago

Even if that were true, comparing raw pay numbers without accounting for cost of living is a fool's errand.

camillomiller4• 2 years ago

Do you have access to my income report? Let's talk after you get foreclosed because of an ingrown toenail operation.

figassis3• 2 years ago

Ah, the family seating fee. I once paid close to $3k to reserve ajacent seats for my family on a 3 leg round trip. Prices varied from $80 to $200 per seat, in addition to the ticket. Was traveling with kids, wanted to make sure we were all together.

Then I started testing, and guess what? you end up together regardless. So fear based sales.

JR1427• 2 years ago

I guess that in the UK this has been the case for a while?

We just got 1600GBP back from British Airways for a flight delayed by 24hrs.

etiennebausson• 2 years ago

Probably the EU regulations haven't been removed (yet?).

dusted• 2 years ago

Well, that seems obvious ? Of course they are? If you've booked a flight at a certain date, it's obviously because you need transportation at that date. If you cannot be transported at the right time, the transportation is in many cases no longer needed. For instance, if I miss a conference, my need for the transportation goes to zero, and so, I should be reimbursed _AT_LEAST_ for the transportation, but I'd argue, also for the conference if that payment has already been made.

kome• 2 years ago

Sometimes I am so surprised that such a mundane regulation, a basic facility really, is seen as revolutionary in the US and implemented extremely late. I am so happy and lucky to have been born in this corner of the world

ZeljkoS• 2 years ago

Legal protection is nice, but it can be circumvented, like the Lufthansa fiasco showed: https://svedic.org/travel/screwed-by-lufthansa-german-govern...

Since then, I always try to book plane tickets with PayPal. It is a bit ironic that as an EU citizen, I was screwed by EU company (Lufthansa), EU politicians (German government), but saved by a private US company (PayPal) :D

account428• 2 years ago

Selling vouchers where you know some of them will go unused should be straight up illegal. It's fraud imo - taking money without actually providing a service. At the very least they should be automatically refunded after a reasonable time period.

jcutrell• 2 years ago

Wouldn't this likely just result in increased airfare across the board?

styfle• 2 years ago

The rules come after the agency handed Southwest Airlines a record $140 million fine for its operational meltdown during the 2022 holiday travel season.

I was one of the travelers impacted by that meltdown. I waited hours and hours in the airport because of “delays”. One by one, every flight was cancelled. Southwest made everyone wait in a single file line to rebook their flight a week or two out (of course after Christmas). A couple days later they cancelled that flight too. So they issued vouchers. No way I would use a voucher for an airline that can’t get it together. I’m glad there will be cash refunds now so folks don’t get trapped with a bad airline.

edpichler• 2 years ago

We need more competition in this industry.

sebzim4500• 2 years ago

I don't see how that would help, given the margins are already so low.

An airline which has decent customer service and who pays out for refunds would have higher ticket prices and noone would use them.

imgabe• 2 years ago

Is there something just intrinsically unprofitable about air travel? Why do airlines continue to get shittier and shittier and strive for the bottom of the barrel?

It’s clearly a high demand service. Couldn’t they just provide a good service and make money?

brikym• 2 years ago

https://www.axios.com/2023/12/08/airline-mergers-us-airline-...

It's probably due to the power balance. Corporate consolidation is at an all time high so what choice do you have when they all have the same shitty policies.

Frost1x• 2 years ago

As much as I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, I find it abused by corporate America and no longer do so. Any variation of Hanlon’s razor is assumed and abused strategically anymore. Perhaps there could be fundamental issues that explain away airline issues we see but I just assume it’s an industry that has successfully eroded consumer expectations and rights more than many. It’s not like it’s unique to the airline industry as a trend, it seems to be happening in every industry I interact with. You’re getting less for more and the experience is getting worse overall. Aside from some gains technology wise, people are clawing everywhere and consumers foot the bill with little option outside of simply not participating and using certain products or services.

If it we’re so fundamentally shitty, we should overall reduce air travel and expectations around it that exist in business and culture, not continually prop it up by making the entire experience dreadful.

balderdash• 2 years ago

People need to be paid multiples of their ticket value on a sliding scale based on length of delay and whether it was overnight. There should still be compensation even if you ultimately fly on that airline.

micromacrofoot• 2 years ago

It's absurd that we're so hesitant to weaponize regulation against abusive business practices (because money). This should have been fixed decades ago, as it has been in some other countries.

DamnYuppie2• 2 years ago

I used to travel weekly for years and if there was a glitch in the system, weather delays, plane maintenance, crew availability, etc it could be very exasperating to get things sorted out.

However for the first time in a few years I had to take a trip this past week on United. Our flight was boarded, the pilots found an issue and called maintenance. It was determined that the flight had to be cancelled, so all passengers had to deplane. The crew kept telling us all of us would be rebooked and would get notification via text or on the United app with next steps, we could also talk to a gate agent. It did take about 30 minutes but they did in fact give me a notification of options for other flights, I took all of one button press to select my new itinerary. Also I had paid for upgraded seats, specifically emergency aisles. As they were not available on all of my new flights they issued me a reimbursement for those costs. For those who had to stay over they paid for hotel and food.

It is never fun to have a flight cancelled on you but in my experience this was definitely one of the better "customer service" experiences I have had. Really can't complain about how they handled it which gives me hope that technology will allow them to offer better and more timely customer service going forward.

_xerces_• 2 years ago

One issue I have had is where they cancel the domestic final leg of a non-direct international flight. The total ticket cost was $2000, but they valued my cancelled final connection at only $40, yet if I tried to purchase just that flight alone between those two US cities, it would have been more like $400.

greenie_beans2• 2 years ago

4 years later and i'm still trying to get money back from tap portugal from a cancelled covid trip. fuck that company so much.

also, i bought the ticket from priceline, who "expunged" there database for customers from 2 years ago and older...which sounds quite convenient and sketchy.

Airlines required to refund passengers for canceled, delayed flights

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