DIY Espresso (2020)

https://www.fourbardesign.com/2020/10/diy-espresso.html

by timvdalen • 3 years ago

254 208 3 years ago

Similar topic which might be of interest to HN readers is the [Gaggiuino](https://gaggiuino.github.io/#/), an open source project that adds a microcontroller to fairly affordable and mechanically simple domestic espresso machines, bringing them (almost) up to par with machines that cost 5x as much

benoliver999• 3 years ago

I love this sort of thing. But I learnt more about it from your comment vs the actual docs!

dkdbejwi3834• 3 years ago

That might be one of the reasons they're trying to fundraise for a technical writer! I think the docs currently serve more as an installation & troubleshooting manual, and assumes some kind of familiarity.

kozhevnikov• 3 years ago

Lance Hedrick in his latest video (review of Decent XL) mentions that he got the Gaggiuino parts, but haven't got around to building it. I look forward to that video, whenever it comes out.

dkdbejwi3834• 3 years ago

Yeah, I’m looking forward to his experience. I’ve been on the fence about whether to build a Gaggiuino myself, or sell the GCP and upgrade to a dual boiler machine. I don’t really care for flow profiling, but more stable temps and auto shot timing would be nice to have. And I make a lot of milk drinks so a DB would eliminate some of the wait time and need to flush the boiler.

yourusername• 3 years ago

A bit less DIY but similar functionally is the kit Shades of Coffee sells that also adds PID to the Gaggia classic. If you're just after the functionality of a cheap espresso machine with PID that takes a lot less effort.

quickthrower22• 3 years ago

For even less effort buy a breville bambino.

speed_spread2• 3 years ago

If anybody's interested in a packaged solution, Auber Instruments has been making PIDs and timers for Gaggia and Rancilio machines for a looong time. Their support is also top notch. (I use their PID with my Silvia)

https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6&s...

fodkodrasz• 3 years ago

The site would definitely need a rework based on the input from someone totally unfamiliar with the project.

I cannot know from the opening page, what coffee machines the mod is for, but I can see that an STM32 or an arduino nano and some other parts would be needed.

Not really informative, no pictures on the opening page to show something like before/after, to showcase the benefits, etc.

Yet there is a rickroll...

This is not really sympathetic, but yeah, I can see the begging icon (support paying for a professional technical writer)... but this is also really backwards in my opinion. First you should sell the project to me, then ask for donation.

While the engineering contents might be great, the presentation is very low quality, to put it politely.

SkyPuncher• 3 years ago

It’s only for a Gaggia. It’s one of those projects that you only stumble into if you already have a Gaggia.

spdif899• 3 years ago

I feel the same, as someone who has a Gaggia Classic collecting dust and has long considered splurging on a near-$1000 option because I want all these features...

This is so vaguely written as to seem far more daunting than it probably should, it's unclear how much money or time it would cost me, I don't even know where to start with it. Cool idea, but totally unapproachable to someone without extensive related background.

mattj• 3 years ago

I've built one of these based on the instructions and use it daily (and love it!), but the tone of the site is pretty reflective of the project overall. It's definitely a really impressive hack and I appreciate all the hard work that's gone into it, but could really use a little more user-facing empathy.

I'm not sure if I'd recommend it to someone else - and if I was doing it again I'd probably spend a few hundred more (than the gaggia + parts cost) and just buy an off-the-shelf machine with the same feature set.

agloe_dreams6• 3 years ago

I own a Gaggia Classic that this mod is for and I'm a little unsure of calling a nearly $500 machine + DIY 'affordable'

bondarchuk2• 3 years ago

That's less than a year of 1 takeaway coffee a day.

SturgeonsLaw• 3 years ago

Gotta admit the combo of 3D printed parts, high pressure and hot water makes me a little nervous but that looks like a very cool device

wwykeham• 3 years ago

There's an important extra ingredient that you didn't specify: FEA. He did a proper finite element analysis, which is the only way that I would be willing to be in the same room as a 3D printed pressure vessel.

Temperature was interesting though. I assume it partially because the hot water was mostly in contact with metal rather than plastic. I don't know what he printed it from but ABS's melting point[1] is only just above water boiling point. We've got a UV cured 3D printer at work (projet) which has some much better temperature properties.

[1] Technically "glass transition temperature" if you want be all materials-science about it

beAbU• 3 years ago

I'm quite certain they conducted FEA on the Titan DSV's hull. And look how that turned out.

criddell• 3 years ago

Modeling with FEA is great but I wonder if he also did a fatigue analysis. It might not blow up the first time, but will it blow up three years later after the parts have been pressurized and thermally cycled 1000 times?

mastax2• 3 years ago

Did the FEA account for the weakness from the layer lines or did it pretend it was an injection molded part (I'm assuming the latter).

frognumber• 3 years ago

This is nice.

If I were doing it, my design would consist of:

(1) A bike pump (goes up to >200 PSI)

(2) A pressure tank

(3) Two valves

I would pump up the tank to ~130PSI, getting my morning exercise in. I would exhaust it through the coffee. If I wanted to get fancy, I might have an extra intermediate stage so I can use fresh air, rather than air which has been through my bike pump.

I'd like to be able to buy something like (any) of these. My requirements:

- Cheap

- Reliable

- Makes good coffee

Nice-to-haves:

- Compact

Anti-requirements (which should make this possible):

- Fast to use and practical in a fast-paced environment.

I make one cup of coffee a day, and it's a ritual. I'm okay with this taking a while, needing to work a bike pump, or whatnot. Slow is okay.

andreareina• 3 years ago

I don't know if the reservoir is big enough but some pumps for tubeless tires do come with an integral tank for an initial rush of air to pop the bead in place.

dale_glass• 3 years ago

Get yourself a lever machine?

It's an espresso machine that's fully manual. You create pressure by using a lever. Water is manually poured in.

Cheapness is hard to have in a product that's big, heavy and involves big chunks of metal, but on the good side a well made one should last forever -- nothing much that can go wrong, and it's a purely mechanical device that can be taken apart.

jnovek2• 3 years ago

+1 for a lever! I found a busted up old La Pavoni years ago, replaced all the seals and it’s been good to me ever since. There’s a bit of art to pulling a shot on a lever but once you get used to it, it’s a really fun way to make your coffee every day.

zemvpferreira4• 3 years ago

Love levers! I have three going on four, they're pretty addictive.

These days you can get a very good one (Flair Flex) for $99! That, some good beans and a bit of knowledge and you'll make coffee on par with any shop out there.

averonspy• 3 years ago

You can buy one already - handpresso :) The original was based on a manual hand bicycle pump.

helsinkiandrew• 3 years ago

The handpresso seems up your street:

https://www.handpresso.com/en/handpresso-pump-black-351.html

stephen_g3• 3 years ago

There’s also the Picopresso which is (I believe) generally regarded to produce a better result - https://www.wacaco.com/products/picopresso

Still hand pumped, looks a bit less like a bike pump though!

HillRat• 3 years ago

Flair is a line of inexpensive, fully-manual lever espresso machines with varying degrees of portability. Excellent designs.

earthscienceman• 3 years ago

Everyone here mentions the handpresso but the picopresso is a better design IMO:

https://www.wacaco.com/collections/picopresso

m-p-32• 3 years ago

I was looking at the Nanopresso, seems like a good middle ground between size and price.

sfmike• 3 years ago

I got a pico around a year ago. It is the best product easily made by them the others are watery sort of thicker normal black drip coffee. Pico when the grounds are grinded to the correct diameter(very small) makes espresso shots almost or in comparison to a cafe shot! It's one of my favorite purchases for 129 on amazon. Needs a scale for sure, I also got an extra Normcore 51mm puck screen to use in it as well. I would say this or the base flair is the best at home espresso that isn't a "machine" Also I can travel with the pico. It's really amazing!

top_coder• 3 years ago

- Cheap

You’re ignoring the grinder, which in my opinion is the most important part of home espresso making. Add at least 200USD for a good quality manual burr grinder.

maeln• 3 years ago

You can find the Timemore C2 for 50 to 60 euros and it is a pretty decent manual burr grinder. And for around ~100 euros you can find decent burr grinder from more known brand. If you are going to spend more than 200USD, you might as well buy an electric one.

zemvpferreira4• 3 years ago

If you live in a city it's relatively trivial to buy pre-ground from a good roaster. Not the same as grinding in the moment of course but for a week's worth it's generally ok. Especially for the first coffee of the day.

jnovek2• 3 years ago

You can find a Baratza Encore used for ~$100. Gives a surprisingly uniform fine grind (not as good for coarser grinds like french press, though).

Out of the box it's not perfect for espresso because the grind level is in steps that aren't short enough to easily dial in. There's a "stepless" mod and that makes it much easier to work with.

agloe_dreams6• 3 years ago

A gotcha that hits me here is that, by using a pressure tank, you will likely run into a cleaning/humidity problem. You need that air to be flawlessly clean and the act of pressurizing and depressurizing the tank would make that difficult. Additionally, you need to pressurize near-boiling water as well so you'll need a boiler/water mixing tank. Finally, the temperature of the actual brewing environment is important, otherwise the outer edges will be lesser extracted.

On the other hand, a Flair Neo works fine

lytfyre• 3 years ago

depending on your definition of cheap, sounds a lot like the Portaspresso Rossa Air (https://portaspresso.com/shop/ols/products/rossa-tr-air-espr...).

You may also like the Espresso Forge, which manages to go even more reductive than what you propose, forgoing the pumping, or any sort of leverage, in favour of a piston for you to push on with a basket on the end.

avidphantasm• 3 years ago

Just buy a Flair.

jcfrei• 3 years ago

So which espresso making device does HN prefer? I've bought myself a Kamira but looking to try out others as well.

seanhunter2• 3 years ago

Firstly I would say that the grinder makes an outsize difference relative to cost so I would strongly recommend you first invest in something like a Mahlkohning Vario (this is what I have as a present from my lovely wife who just by pure coincidence also likes nice coffee).

Then I have a friend who is an ex-high-end-barista and gigantic coffee snob (like coffee snob's coffee snob) and insists that once you have a good grinder it's more important to get a reverse osmosis filter than a high-end espresso machine. Make of that what you will, but if you want to investigate that he swears by this book[1] and having drunk coffee at Colonna and Smalls in Bath (owned by one of the guys who wrote the book) I can say he might be on to something. Certainly every cafe that does amazing coffee has an RO filter.

I have an ECM entry-level machine and it's great. I dont' need (or ever use) the frothing parts unless we have guests but they do the thing they are supposed to and the main coffee bit works great. I wish it could get a bit more pressure but it makes a good cup of espresso if I tamp well and use nice beans (which, you should always use nice beans. There's really no excuse for that one).

In the UK you can get great home coffee equipment as well as advice from Bella Barista[2]. Probably most countries have a place like that but even if you're not in the UK I would look at what they have as being a good starting point.

[1] https://www.waterstones.com/book/water-for-coffee/maxwell-co...

[2] https://bellabarista.co.uk/

matwood• 3 years ago

I would agree with your friend. I typically do pour over, and getting a nice grinder was a huge upgrade for the coffee flavor. I also only use filtered water. Next is fresher beans.

Frowned upon I'm sure, but for espresso a machine like Nespresso or L'Or has worked fine in a pinch.

drittich3• 3 years ago

I have a Mazzer Mini grinder that's pretty old and I suspect it is the weak link in the chain (paired with Rocket espresso machine). Is there an easy way to tell if the grinder is doing its job well, e.g., some reliable way to examine the grain size?

MarkMarine4• 3 years ago

I’ll check out the book but while I wait for shipping, could you share what you do with the RO water? Do you put your own mineral and salt profile into it, or just use it as pure H2O? I have an RO filter and build my own water profile for my homebrew beer, hadn’t started down that road for coffee yet.

roflyear8• 3 years ago

RO is really important (along with remineralization), but you can buy RO water without a filter, so if you're not making several coffees a day, maybe it isn't worth it. If your supermarket has available RO water to fill jugs even better.

fellowmartian2• 3 years ago

Breville Infuser or Bambino Plus for people who don’t want to DIY nor break the bank.

exitb• 3 years ago

In that segment, Flair is the right answer. It’s simple, durable and capable of delivering 100% real espresso, on par with high end machines. It’s also not weird, you can actually use it every day and prep the drink in just a few minutes.

Also note that Flair 58 is compatible with regular-sized generic espresso accessories.

zemvpferreira4• 3 years ago

I just plugged their new $99 model above. It's a great way to get started on home expresso and honestly will never need upgrading for 99% of people.

SimianLogic• 3 years ago

I started with a handpresso.

I’ve had a ROK manual for 10 years and have given several as gifts. Upgraded/replaced most of the parts outside the frame.

I had a part break earlier this year and they sent me new ones for free.

pivo• 3 years ago

I've used, but don't currently own, a Cafelat Robot (https://prima-coffee.com/equipment/cafelat/robot-barista-gre...)

The Robot made great espresso, and I was just about to buy one for myself but then the Meticulous Espresso machine (https://meticuloushome.com/) was announced on kickstarter and I splurged on that instead (deliver by end of year, or so they say.)

If for some reason that doesn't work out, I'll get the robot

Gerard0• 3 years ago

Can't wait for it. It is looking good! Would be surprised if it doesn't work.

simonsarris• 3 years ago

At home I use a Bialetti Venus (moka pot), which makes a pseudo-espresso (longer, with poor crema). Nonetheless I prize this and look forward to it each day. It's about $40.

agloe_dreams6• 3 years ago

Flair, or Gaggia Classic for those who are DIY

SergeAx2• 3 years ago

Nespresso classic with Illy capsules.

dfxm123• 3 years ago

Think about budget and if your budget is high enough, if you make several milk drinks back to back and need more than a single boiler machine. At different price points, I'd look at Gaggia classic pro, profitec go, profitec pro 300. You'll also have to budget for a proper espresso grinder. Check out https://www.espressocoffeeshop.com/ for the best prices on grinders.

The Kamira appears to be a moka pot, not an espresso machine.

demondemidi8• 3 years ago

anything with an e61 group-head and a double boiler. pid controlled heat exchanger will work but can be challenging if you really get into it.

roflyear8• 3 years ago

Personally, an LP or any Flair product. But the grinder is absolutely more important than the espresso machine.

JonChesterfield• 3 years ago

Jura E8 here. Single button cappuccino box, competently engineered. Milk goes through a small subset of the machine which disassembles easily and there's a cleaning tablet option for not taking it apart. I think it could be wifi attached and persuaded to make one as an alarm clock but that's more bother than I've gone to.

That one optimises for minimum hassle per cup of coffee at the expense of up front and running costs. No regrets.

mtam• 3 years ago

Espresso: La Marzocco GS/3 + Kafatek MC5 Grinder Pour-over: V60 + Fellow Ode 2 Grinder Traveling: Wacaco Picopresso + Comandante C4 Grinder

eur0pa2• 3 years ago

I find it somewhat cute that according to this article, $500 is "grows on trees" kind of money. In the espresso hobby, $500 is barely enough to get a decent grinder.

fellowmartian2• 3 years ago

DF64 is $350. Haven’t tried it myself (I have a Sette), but if I was buying now I’d go for DF64, flat burr is nice.

ctroein89• 3 years ago

I love my DF64. I found it on sale, and informed my wife that it'd be her Christmas and birthday present to me: totally worth it. Even with a $100 DeLonghi EC155, the difference from the grinder is incredible.

njovin• 3 years ago

For anyone who is discouraged by this (accurate) comment, don't discount the utility of a manual grinder. You can get a 1Zpresso which is a beautiful, durable piece of equipment for a fraction of the cost of an automatic grinder and it takes all of 30 seconds to grind your own beans to perfection.

flyingshoes2• 3 years ago

The KINGrinder KX is a cheaper alternative to the 1Zpresso line.

But yeah, definitely don't discount manual grinders. But note grinding for espresso with a handgrinder is... an exercise. lol.

eur0pa2• 3 years ago

1Z just issued a recall for the chipping burrs affair on their X-Ultra line. They went for cheaper alloys and people ended up with metal shavings in their cup. Old grinders seem to be fine. I’d wait a hot second before getting a 1Z right now

demondemidi8• 3 years ago

Seriously.

Although I would like to discourage anyone from getting a Eureka (Silenzio). grind retention is insane on those, and the higher priced models are the same flawed grinder with more LCD screens.

woolion• 3 years ago

Interesting, I was looking back at https://sohl.substack.com/p/espresso-and-open-source-hardwar... yesterday night (posted on hn as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35320729), with a recent followup on the design.

I was thinking how much I'd like a really open and hackable machine... although I'd prefer one for pourover or siphon extraction. It doesn't seem there is any project like that, but there seem to be a demand for it.

projektfu• 3 years ago

There's a lot of worrying, not just in this article, about parts of the system that are largely incidental to making espresso. The important parts are the filter that allows the coffee through at the right pressure and a way to keep everything at consistent temperature. There is not much difference between a $100 pump machine and the expensive cafe machine except that the expensive one has metal water jackets to keep everything warm. They also clean easily and produce consistent steam for milk.

To me, the lever machines are really neat. It was the lever machine that started the trend in Italy, and the moka pot that made "espresso at home" a thing.

Still, extraction is only one variable. The time a person spends agonizing over temperature and pressure could also be spent learning how to select, blend and roast beans, which can be done cheaply at home using a hot air popcorn popper.

deliriumchn• 3 years ago

There is not much difference between a $100 pump machine and the expensive cafe machine

There is, actually, a lot of differences. Expensive machines have that cheap ones don't:

- multiple (2+) boilers so you can pour 2 caps/pour cap and steam/etc

- a lot less noise

- more consistent temperatures

- preheating

- as mentioned, more consistent steamers, but also precise control over them

- built-in grinder (most of the times mediocre one, but better than none at all, albeit most people who follow this hobby just buy a separate one)

- sometimes they can be controlled remotely

- other smaller things

Most importantly, they're usually a lot more reliable and well-built.

But yes, taste-wise difference will not be substantial, its more like paying for your own comfort if you really want to invest in coffee. Hand lever brewers can be just as good for a fraction of a price if you don't mind to take extra steps. Makes it more fun for some people actually.

zuppy3• 3 years ago

There is not much difference between a $100 pump machine and the expensive cafe machine except that the expensive one has metal water jackets to keep everything warm

i couldn't disagree more. there are many many differences between a cheap (100$ is cheap) machine and an expensive one. first of all, what is important is the pressure at the portafilter, not on the pump, you would say that those are the same, but they are not. second, it's important for that pressure to be stable.

other things that are important:

- temperature stability. even small things like a colder portafilter chan affect this, but what's most important is to control a fixed temperature and deliver that across the entire process.

- the quality of the filter basket (a precision filter from companies like IMS & co). this helps with consistent extraction and minimises the chance for channelling to occur.

- having a way to do a pre-infusion

- being able to change the temperature and pressure in order to accommodate various kinds of coffee and tastes

- etc (i can go on for ages with differences, like dual vs single boiler, milk vs no milk, rotary vs vibration pump etc). it's like saying a ferrari and a ford are the same because both of them have 4 wheels.

yes, you can make espresso without any of those, but saying there are no differences is not true. with skill and an expensive machine you can do a great espresso (or buy a Decent, you can do that without the skill if you don't want mess with changing variables, but still the output is great. with skill, the sky is the limit)

explaininjs3• 3 years ago

You’re underestimating the utility of the lever machine, namely the precision/accuracy is just as good as you can personally make it. I’ve been fine tuning my Flair technique for over 1000 shots at this point. I know the precise pressure profile I like, and I can make fantastic espresso every single time. Even in the middle of the wilderness on a propane burner.

tostr• 3 years ago

That is a massive oversimplification. There are a huge number of variables that have a very noticeable impact on the coffee. Pressure (over time), temperature (over time), flow rate, composition of the water, puck resistance (and change over time), many ways to change how the water extracts from the puck, pre-infusion time (and temp. and pressure...). This is just the machine side, ignoring beans, grinding, distribution and tamping.

And the effect of a single one of those variables can be the difference between a god shot and something that tastes rather off. I am not saying you need a machine that allows you to control all of this to get good shots, but the effect on the result is still there. Something like a Decent DE1 can actually control a lot of this, a lever machine actually allows a lot of control as well. 100$ pump machine to an expensive espresso machine is a huge difference in many regards. Consistency being probably the biggest one.

So no, I do not thing your assessment on complexity of espresso making is an accurate representation. I concede however, that if you know what you are doing, good espresso can be had on cheap-ish machines, it's just much harder and less consistent.

cantSpellSober• 3 years ago

Moka pot is only 1-2 bars of pressure, not "real" espresso. Stronger than drip, but little consistency or control. Never turned down a cup though :)

xtiansimon• 3 years ago

Hmmm. I was a teen in the late 1980’s and I recall vividly a Steam Punk espresso machine I saw at a SOMA art gallery in San Francisco.

It had a volleyball size spherical steam chamber heated by a propane wok burner. I’m fuzzy about the connection to a smallish brew chamber with a foot long lever arm. It was all a play on scale. The whole setup was somehow a unified whole out of a Miyazaki anime.

DIY meets art. Would be thrilled to see that device again compared to my memory palace.

mastax2• 3 years ago

A different machine in a similar vein: https://youtu.be/v4QyfElo1fs

sva_• 3 years ago

You can get a delonghi dedica ec685 for around 150 euro, 100 on sale, which can be modded to make very good espresso. Cool project though.

myspy• 3 years ago

The point where everything has to come together for me is a setup for Cappuccinos where I can make 4 in a row without much hassle and great quality.

propter_hoc• 3 years ago

You would need a dual boiler for this. IMO the best value dual boiler on the market is the Breville dual boiler.

Alternatively there are standalone milk frothing devices that might suit your needs while allowing you to buy a cheaper espresso machine.

andai• 3 years ago

How in depth are the modifications?

pier252• 3 years ago

Single boiler machines are a pain if you want to more than 1 espresso drink with milk.

killerstorm• 3 years ago

Does espresso actually taste better than what you get out of Aeropress or pourover?

neogodless• 3 years ago

It's a much richer coffee; feels more substantial in your mouth.

jebarker• 3 years ago

I think so. My daily driver for coffee is a Chemex since I can make enough for two in about 5 mins. I use reasonably fresh roasted beans I grind right before making the coffee. But whenever I get a good espresso based drink I recognize the step up in quality.

dm270• 3 years ago

That is completely up to your personal taste. I personally like both. Sometimes it's nice having an espresso in the sun. Other times I prefer taking fifteen minutes for a nice hot pourover

orangepurple• 3 years ago

It is not comparable. The beverage is quite different. So many people have had badly made espressos in the past they may think they don't like or care for it. Properly made espresso brings out flavors and smells which are not extractable with the Aeropress. The extreme case is the extraction of fruity flavors from a specific class of light roasts. You can not do it with Aeropress. I have a manually operated press as my espresso maker (Espresso Forge) and I only use Aeropress while traveling.

ubermonkey2• 3 years ago

It's a different beverage. That may sound precious or twee to you but the flavors of the same beans prepared in these three ways will be different; there's no other way to describe it.

Espresso is going to be more intense, probably sweeter, and stronger.

Pourover is typically brighter and less intense, but obviously you drink more of it. When I make filter coffee, I prefer pourover.

I do not care for Aeropress coffee or its sibling French press; for me, the mouth feel and flavor are inferior to other brewing methods, but obviously this is a preference thing.

dghughes2• 3 years ago

French press does allow caffenol (I think it is?) to be in the coffee it makes for a silky mouthfeel like someone put glycerine in it.

French press as pure and basic as you can get coarse ground coffee a bit of water wait 5 minutes and pour.

But yes it all depends on your taste and what you like.

qbasic_forever2• 3 years ago

It can extract more flavor. The most fruity and sweet brews I've ever had were good espresso shots. The same beans in a pour over are still fantastic, but it's all amplified and more pronounced when made as an espresso shot. There's also a syrupy texture that you really can't get with any other brewing method.

All that said, every day I drink pour overs and aeropress brews--I don't want to drop the $1k+ on a proper home espresso setup.

arsome• 3 years ago

Exactly - espresso is good, but unless you're really into it, not worth the money and complexity to make at home, save it for a treat when you're out.

agloe_dreams6• 3 years ago

Different. It's just a different way to enjoy coffee that is dramatically more creamy and dominated by different flavors extracted.

dboreham2• 3 years ago

Yes

roflyear8• 3 years ago

No, not better. It's just a different drink. Some like it more, some don't. Some (like myself) like both.

dazhbog2• 3 years ago

I've been buying cups of coffee on and off from coffee shops for years. Each cup was 2-4USD. Sometimes i also did pourovers but that shit took forever.

Finally got a used Delongi bean to cup for less than $200 and my god what I've been missing. I also discovered that, for me, reducing the amount of water that passes through the coffee puck for each shot makes the coffee so creamy and less acidic.

baldeagle2• 3 years ago

This is call a 'ristretto shot'. In some of the starbucks reserve locations you can get a large volume of ground coffee and a ristretto shot, and it is very creamy without as much acid/tannins.

Also, the ristretto shot is often used in flat whites - one of the main differences (the other lesser one being milk texture)

lock-the-spock• 3 years ago

Starbucks is rather bad coffee though, without all the syrups you will notice it more. Honestly I have a bean to cup (Krups, previously also had DeLonghi) and prefer to take a small thermos along for decent lukewarm coffee all day rather than to pay outrageous amounts for mediocre coffee and a throwaway cup. Living in Italy or Portugal I'd probably not need that as there is excellent espresso at every corner, but most other countries it's hit and miss and the Anglosphere generally just bad coffee.

koolba• 3 years ago

Which machine did you get?

dazhbog2• 3 years ago

Got a used Delonghi Magnifica Start

slothtrop• 3 years ago

Sometimes i also did pourovers but that shit took forever.

Really? I use the hario switch for my medium roasts and I brew 2 min tops, usually a hybrid immersion/pourover, but I can do just straight pourover in that time.

z3dd2• 3 years ago

Standard brewing/extraction time for V60/kalita/kemex is 3.5 min plus about 1 min of preparation (which is still not a lot).

TomMasz• 3 years ago

Making espresso at home is one of those things that seems to lead directly to obsession. Keep that in mind should you decide to start.

iscrewyou• 3 years ago

Yupp! It’s very tempting to try to make this a hobby and then try to perfect it. But coffee is one thing that allows me to force myself out of the house and experience the community around me. It’s a $4 excuse but it’s a good reason to not be lazy about leaving the house.

mewse-hn• 3 years ago

Would love to get STLs + BOM for this

achr22• 3 years ago

I would be worried about carbonic acid production. What about a nitrogen charge instead? Could even improve creama.

hn_throwaway_993• 3 years ago

Yes, he should use a nitrogen charger instead. The Mypressi Twist was a commercially available machine that used nitrogen chargers in a similar design and worked beautifully.

SergeAx2• 3 years ago

My espresso craving is fully satisfied by the Nespresso capsule machine; the classic type, with capsule patent expired, not the newer Vertuo type. Original Nespresso capsules are 5-6 euro per pack of 10; non-originals from Illy or Lavazza are even cheaper at about 40 cents per shot.

Entry-level machines are as cheap as 100 euro, for 200-300 you will get semi- or fully-auto, plus some features like milk frother. The primary advantage here is reproducibility and ease of use: insert the capsule, check the water level, push the button, and here you go.

Some espresso aficionados with 1000 EUR machines and 400 EUR grinders tried to impress me with their setups. Still, I honestly cannot taste the difference unless they use special Arabica roasts with unbearable acidity, which sadly has become increasingly popular nowadays.

romafirst35• 3 years ago

have you tried instant coffee? Nestle have a very good "gold blend" for coffee aficionados.

demondemidi8• 3 years ago

the best for backpacking! and i say that as a radical coffee snob.

demondemidi8• 3 years ago

The new spinning Nespresso is a lot worse than the original. Rotary extraction makes a watery americano with foam, not crema. The original is really nice to find in Euro hotel rooms, but most Euro hotels have quality espresso machines in the lobby.

hn_throwaway_993• 3 years ago

I have a commercially available handheld espresso machine that is no longer in production that has a similar design. I'm blanking on the name of it (edit: found it, the Mypressi Twist: https://coolhunting.com/food-drink/twist-espresso/), it kinda looks like a little black mallet - sphere at one end where you put the ground coffee and water, and the handle is where you insert nitrous canisters (whip cream chargers) for pressure. If I searched for a while on Home Barista I'm sure I could find it - it got great reviews there. You get 4 shots for each charger. It's really a fantastic little device!

To the original author of this post, I'd definitely recommend using whip cream chargers instead of CO2. They're usually cheaper, and you don't have to worry about the acidity concerns you bring up in your post.

daniel_reetz• 3 years ago

this is cool, how did it heat the water, if at all? Just add boiling water?

hn_throwaway_993• 3 years ago

Yes, you just add boiling water: once to preheat it, and then once to pull the shit. Espresso is normally pulled around 200 F, so it ends up being right around the appropriate temperature.

boomskats2• 3 years ago

I have a huge Rocket espresso machine that I haven't used for 3-4 years, ever since I bought my Cafelat Robot. Honestly, I appreciate the engineering in this post but it's just not necessary given how good the Robot already is.

The manual control makes it possible to do flow profiling with something like a Timamore Nano scale, by adjusting pressure in real time according to the flow rate reading on the scale. I've been making and drinking espresso for a long time and nothing comes close to the flow-profiled spro I've made using this method.

ruph1233• 3 years ago

Will that scale fit under the robot?

boomskats2• 3 years ago

It's a couple of mm too wide, it fits at an angle. But it works well.

titanomachy• 3 years ago

The DIY version is still way cheaper.

ruph1233• 3 years ago

It is so interesting to me how the marketing of flair and ROK (but mostly flair) drive the amount of coverage they get online in terms of reviews and discussions whereas the Cafelat gets almost nothing. It sure has flaws (the lever hands and the awkwardly positioned pressure gauge) but not needing to preheat the brew chamber is such a big win, it is clearly the better product.

To this day James Hoffman has only one crappy video about the Cafelat, which is not even a polished review and rather a first look. But he has a few highly polished flair videos and discusses their ridiculous electricly preheated pro versions to death. (Without ever really seriously comparing it against the Cafelat)

everybodyknows• 3 years ago

Ships from the UK:

https://www.cafelat.co.uk/

romafirst35• 3 years ago

Hoffman is a joke and is not respected by anyone in the coffee industry, he's a pretentious twat and exactly the opposite of what coffee needs. Most content you see online is pay-to-play so if you spend more money you get more content.

Daishiman• 3 years ago

But that's what marketing and sales are for. The first result for the Cafelat on Google (at least to me) isn't even their own web page. It helps that the Flair is an excellent product too.

This is what marketing, sales, and brand outreach do: they connect customers with products. People get sold Flairs, they like them, they tell others, people consume content for Flairs, Robots occupy the same niche and once you get a Flair you don't really have a reason to go with a Robot.

stephen_g3• 3 years ago

It’s funny, I know it’s a silly idea (I mean, I literally have an ex-commercial espresso machine plumbed-in in the kitchen) but the idea of making my own espresso machine has also always fascinated me. Designing a pressure vessel (as an electronic designer that can find my way around solid modelling CAD well enough) for steam is scary though, although just doing the espresso but wouldn’t be too dangerous.

rabbits_2002• 3 years ago

Wow he says espresso machines produce 131 psi thats nuts. Can they explode?

slotrans• 3 years ago

Impressive that this works. It's so small!

Also: absolute endorsement for anything and everything James Hoffmann

notorandit• 3 years ago

Why not trying a moka?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moka_pot

qbasic_forever2• 3 years ago

Moka pots don't make espresso, they don't get up to the pressure required for espresso-level extraction. They're still quite good and I prefer them over drip brew for most coffees.

cryptonector• 3 years ago

Needs a pressure regulator to make it safe.

jppope• 3 years ago

I'm actually totally fine with the moka pot, but can't seem to figure out a way to properly froth + heat milk... any suggestions?

demondemidi8• 3 years ago

https://bellmanespresso.com/products/bellman-stovetop-steame...

roflyear8• 3 years ago

maybe not "properly" but you can use a frenchpress. https://coffeeatthree.com/froth-milk-french-press/

llbeansandrice• 3 years ago

I'm a big fan of using a glass french press. Put the milk in and heat it in the microwave (takes some fiddling and a thermometer but once you have a recipe down for you it works great) and then using a technique like this to froth the milk [0]

[0] https://youtu.be/ZgIVfU0xBjA?t=641

demondemidi8• 3 years ago

as someone who fell deep into the espresso hole over the past 8 years (from an $800 saeco to a $3000 profitec with a few in between), i see several problems with this.

First, CO2 -WILL- enter the brew. There is no way to stop it. This will create carbonic acid and elevate the pH. Which absolutely will impact the flavor. Part of the extraction "dialing in" process is determining the dose, temperature, grind, and duration for a new bean (and as it ages). The last thing you want it so add more acidity to the flavor. Some people do like sour espresso, I do not, and I think I'm in the majority.

Second, consistency of pressure. A CO2 canister output pressure changes with temperature and volume. An espresso machine uses a pump (and some a PID) to regulate this.

Third, this thing will probably explode after a few weeks. You can't subject plastics to this type of pressure. But OP did suggest using metal in the next version.

Fourth, health. Plastic + hot water is bad, add extreme pressure and it is even worse. Kick it up a notch using 3D printed plastic, which is a nowhere near food safe. I'm not too far into the "don't eat out of warm plastic" group, but i'm close. This would concern me.

I think it is a cool build. But a Bialeti is sufficient if you don't want to drop thousands on espresso machinery. Also in the running, the early Nespresso designs, not the rotary one. Both will get you into "americano" territory.

Johnny555• 3 years ago

Fourth, health. Plastic + hot water is bad, add extreme pressure and it is even worse. Kick it up a notch using 3D printed plastic, which is a nowhere near food safe. I'm not too far into the "don't eat out of warm plastic" group, but i'm close. This would concern me.

It doesn’t look like the coffee or water touches the plastic, it goes into a metal Cafelat Robot basket then is tamped with a metal screen on top.

demondemidi8• 3 years ago

The screen in between the filter and the chamber top is to prevent grounds from entering up into the chamber, but boiling pressurized water absolutely does flood the entire chamber including the plastic region. (It's not just a wall of pressurized water in nice straight lines, it's a mixture of solids liquids and gasses.) Eg: When I clean my E61 group head, I have to remove a fine mesh filter to get to the brass outflow fitting, and it is still covered with oils from the coffee.

leni536• 3 years ago

A CO2 canister output pressure changes with temperature and volume

Temperature yes, volume, not really. The CO2 is in liquid state, maintaining its vapour pressure. Although if the starting volume is low, then the liquid could substantially cool down during the extraction and lower the vapour pressure that way.

All of this is irrelevant though, as the pressure is regulated down to espresso extraction levels during the extraction. It looks like it's done by hand by eyeballing the pressure gauge, pretty wild.

Also not much CO2 enters into a hot liquid, CO2 solubility is drastically down at this temp, as the article notes.

z3dd2• 3 years ago

But a Bialeti is sufficient if you don't want to drop thousands on espresso machinery.

Or 9barista/cafelat robot

searealist• 3 years ago

Some people do like sour espresso, I do not, and I think I'm in the majority.

It's very hard to find a non-sour coffee where I live, and not much easier to find a non-sour espresso.

demondemidi8• 3 years ago

bummer. it can be dialed out, it just takes tame, and sadly the vast majority of baristas use a computer controlled grinder and machine and just push-shots all day long. if you find a place with someone in their 30's with weird facial hair or tattoos pulling shots, they're likely to invest more of their personality in understanding espresso, which is better for your. tell them to pull the shot "lungo" (longer) so you get more of the bitter tail. or tell them increase the boiler temp.

rasengan0• 3 years ago

Co2 should be for pellet guns. Those canisters are a cost sink.

after much research on YouTube, https://www.home-barista.com/ et al

here are my notes should this be of use:

Adventures with manual espresso to improve upon restriction from Fellows Prismo + body weight atop yoga brick (https://youtu.be/OMuDiq-Tvaw):

All 3 methods employ tampering but no WDT, I do subscribe to a bottom paper filter in the basket (https://youtu.be/lPAel26Cw_A)

These 3 gave great satisfactory results as judged by family when compared to cafe bought

1. https://www.joepresso.com/ with pressurized basket + body weight atop yoga brick Best in terms of short workflow and Americano, love the 'crema', fastest workflow and variety of experiment in and out of basket.

2. https://www.wacaco.com/products/picopresso :-( preheating basket for best results, too small volume, good for travel, many small parts and steps = longer workflow

3. https://espressoforge.com/ True excellent espresso, 58 mm baskets, uses more coffee than above methods 19g but clumsy with gasket adjustment, the greasing maintenance and need to preheat :-(, get the stainless steel, American made.

1. Joepresso is the daily driver, the cup is more fuller bodied with increased dwell time, more variety to mix light and dark roasts a la Philz 2. EspressoForge - true espresso, nuff said Weekends or more time = EspressoForge 3. picopresso - more for travel and sometimes not enough to unseat Aeropress Go for work EDC yeah, i gotta go to the office

seemaze• 3 years ago

Nothing has brought this guilty pragmatist as much joy-per-disposable-dollar as my offensively priced espresso machine.

lost_tourist• 3 years ago

I am an 80% person and I feel that a good quality italian moka pot (i prefer stainless steel) will get you the 80% for espresso. I'm sure this statement will infuriate some people though. I'm the same with with drip coffee. Get a good quality hand or ceramic cone bean grinder and just about any arabica coffee beans and you'll get to the 80% point with fresh ground coffee.

DIY Espresso (2020)

Related Stories