Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do

https://www.ecu.edu.au/newsroom/articles/research/less-gym-time-same-results-why-lowering-weights-is-all-you-need-to-do

by emerongi • 4 years ago

202 211 4 years ago

ecu.edu.au

samuell• 4 years ago

Is this new? Heard this from my exercise savvy friend some year ago. Still great to have it more confirmed if course.

amalgamated_inc• 4 years ago

Science is always 30 years behind practitioners in diet/exercise

ravenstine• 4 years ago

Yeah I'm pretty sure this was something bodybuilders doing HIT knew about decades ago.

recursive• 4 years ago

If you have to use both arms for the lifting phase, then only use one for the lowering phase, you may cut the time in half, but you're also cutting in half how many halves of your body you can exercise simultaneously. Is there a net benefit somewhere?

snicky• 4 years ago

Isn't the burden on that working body half 2x then?

ckardat1233• 4 years ago

It would be the same burden. You're still using the same dumbbell, you're just working one arm at a time instead of two.

ckardat1233• 4 years ago

This is what I was wondering as well. I suppose it cuts down on rest time between sets, because you can rest one arm while lifting with another.

kingkongjaffa• 4 years ago

Bodybuilders have known this for decades, the term is “negative reps”.

They are effective for building muscle memory when learning new exercises, and they are also incredibly beneficial for general muscle building.

Most major muscle groups operate in either push or pull, when it comes to weight training.

By focusing on the negative/inverse movement you activate more of the secondary stabilisation muscles.

xwowsersx• 4 years ago

It is well known that the eccentric contraction is the greater driver of hypertrophy, but I really don't think this means you should get rid of the concentric.

Moissanite2• 4 years ago

So, what, am I supposed to get my butler to lift the weights up for me so that I can just lower them back down?

pwinnski• 4 years ago

As the article says, feel free to use two hands to raise the weight, but only one to lower it.

Moissanite2• 4 years ago

Sounds like you'd just have to do twice as many reps, one for each arm. I get that those reps would notionally be more effective, but enough to balance out? Seems unlikely.

bigDinosaur3• 4 years ago

This sounds like a very quick way to gain an injury. I've usually had negative experiences with doing things in this manner.

lunatuna• 4 years ago

Similar thought. Article states you can use both arms/legs to lift and one to place down. Both arms to do the curl up, one arm to bring down. Both legs on the the leg press machine up, one down. Butlers likely would also work, but wasn't studied ;)

altgeek2• 4 years ago

There's a physiology lab that built out machines for negative-only exercise -> https://news.drgator.ufl.edu/2010/02/24/the-negator-muscle-b...

superfrank• 4 years ago

I had a personal training for a while and he would mix in what he would call "negatives" that were exactly that. For example, we'd set up in a bench press and he'd assist in lifting the bar up, then it was on me to slowly lower it back down. According to him, you're able to use your strength more effectively going down, so I was actually able to do more than I could normally bench this way. Similar story with concentration curls.

inerte• 4 years ago

Exercises can also have a "tempo" variation, where you slowly do one of the parts, with "tempo squat" probably being one of the most popular ones where descent takes 3-5 seconds.

flawn• 4 years ago

what I got always told is to have to do the eccentric part of the exercise longer than the concentric one. helps

tedunangst• 4 years ago

Opinions vary, but solo alternative is to cheat the up phase with momentum, and then control the down phase.

dnissley• 4 years ago

Sounds great if you've got an assistant who can raise the weight back up for you!

"...each participant in the CON group was instructed to lift a dumbbell for the concentric phase in 2s, and each participant in the ECC group lowered a dumbbell in 2s, and the investigator set the dumbbell in the starting position (0° for CON, 50° for ECC) after each contraction"

partiallypro• 4 years ago

Someone brought it up here, but you could also do something like pullups, where you use your legs to lift you and use your arms to lower yourself down slowly.

Alt4Alt• 4 years ago

Or you can do it while hanging upside down with a lighter weight - 'lifting' is no longer an effort. /s

mancerayder3• 4 years ago

The team, which also included researchers from Niigata University and Nishi Kyushu University in Japan and Brazil’s Londrina State University, had groups of people perform three different types of dumbbell curl exercise and measured the results.

First of all, I've been lifting for many years and I haven't done dumbbell curls in a decade. And to be honest, you probably shouldn't be doing isolation exercises unless you don't mind risking injury and joint inflammation in the long-term. For those who don't do bodybuilding but real training (that's going to be squat, press and deadlift, pullups and variations of these), this is sort of junk science. No one serious uses a "leg press" - another injury-prone nightmare (do you value your lower back and are you something other than a football player?). He mentions (overhead / strict) press and perhaps there's something to try there with negatives, if one is extremely conservative and not an olympic weightlifter. Negative pullups are a thing, that's been known by the calisthenics community for ages, but only as a variation.

It found those who only lowered a weight saw the same improvements as those who raised and lowered weights — despite only performing half the number of repetitions.

No shit. That's because eccentric exercises are far more fatiguing for the muscles. It's not something you can do all the time without burning yourself out and damaging your training progress long-term ("long-term" not being a key feature of this junk science study).

hn_throwaway_99• 4 years ago

I don't think your arguments are a fair critique of this study:

First of all, I've been lifting for many years and I haven't done dumbbell curls in a decade.

The study authors aren't arguing that dumbbell curls should be the center of your workout. And they are are presumably using an isolation exercise because it is more straightforward to test improvements to strength when you are just examining the effect on a single muscle group.

>It found those who only lowered a weight saw the same improvements as those who raised and lowered weights — despite only performing half the number of repetitions.
No shit. That's because eccentric exercises are far more fatiguing for the muscles.

It is a giant pet peeve of mine when scientists run a diligent study and then the response is "No shit, that's common sense" with the audacity to call it "junk science." Putting actual data and numbers behind a "common sense" belief is what science is all about - it is not "junk science".

I think there are other fair critiques about the applicability of this study (for example, another commenter mentioned that they were dealing solely with untrained individuals), but the fact that they used dumbbell curls isn't one of them.

im3w1l• 4 years ago

To me it has as much value as some study saying people who eat a servings of strawberries a week live longer after studying a handful of participants or something.

It's one data point, one among many. It won't significantly change my beliefs about anything, unless other studies start confirming its findings.

hahaxdxd123• 4 years ago

I would also add that some of his arguments are just wrong?

you probably shouldn't be doing isolation exercises unless you don't mind risking injury and joint inflammation in the long-term

I have never heard of anyone getting injured from dumbbell curls or lateral raises, but everyone I know has tweaked something from a momentary lapse of form in compound movements. Turns out moving 400lb+ pounds close to your limit regularly isn't that safe.

No one serious uses a "leg press" - another injury-prone nightmare

I know both serious powerlifters and "serious" (non competitive) bodybuilders that use leg press as an accessory on leg days. Stability provided by machines just let you lift more weight.

mancerayder3• 4 years ago

It is a giant pet peeve of mine when scientists run a diligent study and then the response is "No shit, that's common sense" with the audacity to call it "junk science." Putting actual data and numbers behind a "common sense" belief is what science is all about - it is not "junk science".

Oh, come on. It's well-known that eccentric exercises fatigue the muscles more. Maybe I can retract "junk science" and say "junk headline / junk journalism" because the study compared concentric–eccentric coupled (CON-ECC), concentric-only (CON), and eccentric-only (ECC) resistance training of the elbow flexors for their effects on muscle strength and hypertrophy and the headline is proclaiming "Less gym time, more results."

But we can criticize the participants in the study: 50 odd 20 year old novices?? Measuring their elbow flexion in three ways over 5 weeks. Are you actually extrapolating a lot of useful information from these results or are you outraged for the sake of it ?

I think there are other fair critiques about the applicability of this study (for example, another commenter mentioned that they were dealing solely with untrained individuals), but the fact that they used dumbbell curls isn't one of them.

Not using compound exercises is an absolutely viable critique. Most exercises are compound exercises.

Juicyy2• 4 years ago

Not only that, people are using their bias and "expertise" in this thread to make claims which are total BS too... The top comment talking about how calisthenics are the best because thats what they do, this guy doing the same thing. "this lift bad, my lift best, that machine bad, swoll bros laugh at you if you use that." This guy acting like the leg press is bad is another dumb thing ive read on this website. The best workouts are the ones you enjoy and can stick too. Curls (dumbbell, barbell, concentration, reverse, preacher) are a great exercise for growing and strengthening biceps and forearms.

If you read hacker news for exercise science youre in the wrong place.

mrob• 4 years ago

I used eccentric muscle contractions to gain enough strength to do pull-ups when I was too weak to do even one. I stood on a chair to get into the top position, then lowered myself as slowly as I could. The exercise was effective, and after a few weeks I could do full pull-ups without the chair.

malshe3• 4 years ago

Thanks for this tip! I am trying to build upper body strength and pull-ups kill me

BFLpL0QNek• 4 years ago

Bands help. You get the most assistance at the bottom and the assistance decreases as you pull up to your strongest position.

nordsieck2• 4 years ago

I am trying to build upper body strength and pull-ups kill me

IMO, the best thing is if you have access to an assisted pull up machine or lat pull down.

Bands can work alright (and they're cheap!), but assisted pull ups and/or lat pull down allow you finely tune your progressive overload. The general problem with bands (and spring type resistance in general) is that the non-linear resistance makes it more difficult to judge your progress.

Juicyy2• 4 years ago

Upper body strength is a lot more than pull ups. To me, pull ups are a back exercise (lats), upperbody is a lot more than that. Chest, delts, traps, tris, bis, forearms. Very different workouts when your prioritize a muscle group. This was my goto for years. https://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/finder/?

tuatoru5• 4 years ago

pull-ups kill me

To build volume with pullups, complete your sets with negative pullups as gp describes (nb: at least three seconds down from chin over bar to full hang) when you fail the full pull-up (at least two seconds up, from full hang to chin over bar) any more.[1]

> I am trying to build upper body strength

1. Keep a diary recording every session. 2. Stay away from the bench press. Focus on your back chain, arms, and grip: deadlifts, pullups (weighted, when you can do a set of 20 body weight), and overhead presses. Add squats and weighted press-ups if you insist. (Make sure you get taught both proper form and proper warm-up sequencing and always use them!)

Observe that these are all exercises that most people hate doing. For good reasons: they are hard work, and nearly all the gain is in your back, which you can't see in the mirror.

1. I used to see a lot of people doing what they claimed were pullups, with only a ten inch range of motion. Not helpful in real life. Start from a full hang: shoulders under hands, arms straight.

joshschreuder• 4 years ago

There's a lot more to upper body strength than just doing pull ups. You can absolutely work up to it in many ways (including negatives as mentioned).

Recommend giving this video a look, and the channel in general. Lots of good vibes and solid advice for working up through a progression without the muscle bro wankery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO3dKSQayfg

gensym• 4 years ago

I had a similar experience in learning to do my first pull-up at age 40. It felt great!

Though in addition to the lowering, I also did horizontal rows using my kitchen table to work in the concentric direction.

naet• 4 years ago

Doing "negative" pullups also helped me build up from zero to a max of about ten regular pullups in one set. Unfortunately I took a long break from strength training and can now barely do 1-2. Was just thinking of going back to negatives to start rebuilding my strength.

Hnrobert42• 4 years ago

I am going to guess you are younger. Even if not, don’t worry about falling off the wagon. I’ve learned will happen again and again. The key is to get good at climbing back on, e.g., not letting shame get in the way, not jumping straight back to your previous weights, etc.

That’s great that you got to 10 pull-ups. Looking forward to hearing about when you get there again!

brailsafe8• 4 years ago

I'm in the process of doing that right now. It goes away surprisingly quickly. I'm finding that rebuilding grip strength is crucial

claytongulick2• 4 years ago

There was a recent study somewhere that talked about how they'd cracked the code on muscle memory.

We've known for a long time that it's way easier to regain muscle than it is to develop it in the first place.

Turns out the reason is pretty simple, muscle cells are similar to fat cells - meaning that they never go away. They just activate as needed.

So it takes enormous effort to develop muscle cells, but one you have them, getting the size and strength back after taking a break is way easier.

stavros3• 4 years ago

The best thing I did for my pullups was lose weight. It's amazing what a difference losing 20 lbs will do for your ability to do pullups.

temprose• 4 years ago

For me it's the reverse, I gained weight and noticed how much harder it is. Used to be able to do like 5-6 unassisted pullups and now that I've been bulking and gained like 20 lbs, it's a bit harder. Too be honest, most of my weight gain is probably creatine lol.

fnordpiglet2• 4 years ago

I assume this works for push-ups too? Lower yourself then reset and lower again? That’s amazing. I guess it makes sense. If the research in the article holds true this makes strength building much simpler and a lot less grueling.

j33zusjuice5• 4 years ago

Have you never done long eccentric phases? It’s the worst. Barring injuries, there’s no worse day after than the day after long eccentrics. DOMS for days!

vagrantJin• 4 years ago

Planks are the ultimate simple thing. Everyone can do it, at any age, at any level of fitness. Plank.

Just two minutes.

wodenokoto• 4 years ago

The article suggest you should have kept doing eccentric pull-ups.

I’m going to re-add eccentric focused movements back into my pull-up routine.

loveparade• 4 years ago

This article is a perfect example of

1. An academic publishes an extremely limited study, group size is 14 people that haven't exercised much, they do a single exercise, and they mention eccentric-only is particularly useful for rehabilitation. They make no outrageous claims whatsoever, they just put more numbers to something that is widely known and has been measured before.

2. Some popular news outlet wants to get clicks and runs away with it by making super general fitness advice out of it that's total nonsense. But you know, it's backed by Science (!) now.

malshe3• 4 years ago

It's not a popular news outlet. It's one of the university's PR website.

altgeek2• 4 years ago

The "negative" or eccentric component's contribution to hypertrophy has been well known since the 80's. I took a look at the linked journal and zeroed in on the cohort.

"A total of 53 (25 male and 28 female) healthy university students ... who ... had not performed a structured resistance training in the past 6 months, participated in the present study." Ok; so, totally untrained/detrained individuals. This lends less credence to the usefulness of this study.

This study doesn't contribute to the advancement of exercise science and ignores neuromuscular adaptations, the stretch-shortening cycle, and/or lactate threshold effects of non-eccentric muscle contractions.

Depending on your sport or personal goals, a mix of different time-under-tension parameters and rest periods will get people closer to their desired health goals. The eccentric phase is just one part of the equation.

Saying this is "all you need to do" is wrong. The curious should examine the syllabus of the NSCA CSCS program.

tiku• 4 years ago

To lower the weights, you first have to lift them..

bamboozled• 4 years ago

I find Japanese society to be adverse to weight training in general, weight lifting (Olympic) is almost exclusively practiced in college only. Women are on average afraid they will be seen as too masculine / strong so wouldn't touch weights.

Things are certainly changing thanks to cross fit becoming cool

Given all that, I find it interesting this study is partyl published from researchers based in Japan :) It's almost like it's their "opinion".

rjh29• 4 years ago

About 10 years ago pretty much nobody was jacked, but things have changed. There are a LOT of very muscular Japanese people nowadays, deep into steroids, protein, etc. It's not yet as commonplace as in Western society but it's pretty common.

danielscrubs• 4 years ago

It's not a coincidence the Japanese live as long as they do. There is a big focus on being thin which goes against any kind of bulking and even getting muscle can make a guy look fat without properly fitting clothes.

I find it kind of refreshing coming from a part of the world where we would at the office talk about what kind of training we did that week to one up each other.

That said, go to Golds gym and you will see plenty of Arnolds.

dredmorbius• 4 years ago

There are some female bodybuilders out there.

Unsure if she's Japanese though there are others:

<https://i.imgur.com/2i6HNcR.mp4>

c7b• 4 years ago

Professor Nosaka recommends using two hands to help with the concentric (lifting weight) phase, before using one arm for the eccentric phase (lowering weight)

Technically, that's not doing 'half as many reps', as the article claimed, it'll take you exactly the same amount of reps. If you care about minimizing time rather than reps, that's even going to take you (roughly) twice as long compared to using two dumbbells at once.

robomartin3• 4 years ago

Yeah, well.

Here's a concept: Every single researcher who wants to conduct these kinds of experiments needs to, as a prerequisite, read Starting Strength [0] and then go to a certified gym for a year or more before even remotely being able to say anything useful about the subject.

Yes, sure, Starting Strength isn't perfect. I am not presenting it as the sum of all knowledge and the one-and-only true anything. However, there is a vast difference between someone who think they understand strength training and someone who reads this book and actually does it (under trained supervision) for as little as a year.

Someone mentioned dumbbell exercises being harmful and unnecessary. Absolutely agreed. The isolation exercises and machines are dangerous gimmicks for almost everyone going to the gym. There are people for whom they might have value. For the average person who wants to get fit and strong, these exercises and machines are a horrible idea.

My own story: I thought I knew how to lift. I was frustrated because I was not able to make progress. Someone at work introduced me to Starting Strength. I read the book and found a local certified trainer. The difference was like night and day.

I remember the first time I went back to a regular gym after about a year on Starting Strength. I had not touched a dumbbell in probably two years, if not more. Not once. I decided to see what I could do. Long story short, I got all the way up to the 120 lb dumbbells and could not go further 'cause that's the heaviest they had. Anyone looking at me would not, in a million years, have guessed I could go pick-up two 120 lb dumbbells and workout using them. I had guys coming to ask "WTF?", because they were struggling with weights less than half that much.

This goes with my favorite quote: "A man holding a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way" - Mark Twain. These researchers need a cat to hold before they think they know what they are talking about.

[0] https://startingstrength.com/

PS.: Rip is an interesting character. Trained with him. Even had discussions about the use of his approach in space travel applications. Nice guy.

hhmc2• 4 years ago

You're just presupposing the researchers don't know anything about strength training, any basis for that other than some lazy guess?

robomartin3• 4 years ago

any basis for that other than some lazy guess?

Reading papers on the subject and working with researchers in the context of discussing different training methodologies for space-going missions?

The knowledge gap between someone who is mostly an academic and someone who has the formal training matched with real-world experience is vast. When you attempt a 250 lb squat and your body shuts down and just collapses under the weight you learn things you cannot learn any other way. That's an extreme case, of course. Yet, I've been in a room when researcher proposed ideas that seemed sensible to them and everyone in the room who actually had time actually lifting and training just rolled their eyes.

This is true of any field. Experience is incredibly valuable. The only people who do not value experience are those who do not have it and somehow believe they have superpowers that allow them to reinvent things that have been learned the hard way by so many.

eggsmediumrare• 4 years ago

Starting Strength is fine, but would be even better if it was a shorthand in your comment for "training intelligently," as this would then include any progressive program involving compound resistance training and conditioning.

Not sure wtf I'd do with 120s. Too heavy to put overhead for much more than a rep or two unless you're an absolute animal. Too light for anything else, other than maybe bench I guess?

robomartin3• 4 years ago

Starting Strength is fine, but would be even better if it was a shorthand in your comment for "training intelligently,"

I did say this:

"Starting Strength isn't perfect. I am not presenting it as the sum of all knowledge and the one-and-only true anything."

I would add that for the vast majority (95%) of the people going to a gym, Starting Strength would be an amazing improvement. My take is Rip isn't great at marketing or he could have had his program become a standard in most consumer gyms.

I don't go to gyms any more, I put in a full Rogue squat rack setup at my place. Most of the people I used to see at gyms messing around with weights and machines are wasting their time and, in some cases, getting hurt. You see the same people week after week lifting the same weights (badly) and going nowhere.

sawmurai2• 4 years ago

Yeah, the day you start your linear progression with Starting Strength is the day you stop subscribing to fitness social media and just get strong :) I fondly remember the times

Octabrain5• 4 years ago

From my personal experience, for the majority of people, I would recommend to stay away from classic body building weight trainning. I trainned that way for several years in my early twenties (back then, I was even a certified body bulding trainner) and the overload in my joints was a recipe for disaster + the kind of body I developed was disfunctional for activities other than weights themselves.

The excercises I've been doing for years now (apart from other activities (climbing, gymnastics, martial arts etc)) are mostly own-weight ones (pull ups, push ups, dips, squats etc with variations). Every now and then I perform them using a weighted vest with a maximum of 20 kilos. This has kept me in very good shape, injury free and agile.

humanlion87• 4 years ago

May I know what you are referring to as the "classic body building" exercises. To me the classic ones are squat, bench and deadlift. I am curious why you think it's a disaster.

nordsieck2• 4 years ago

To me the classic ones are squat, bench and deadlift.

IMO, those are classic powerlifting exercises. From what I can tell, the pro body builders typically do a lot more machine work and other isolated movements because it has a better stimulus:fatigue ratio than large compound movements.

runnerup2• 4 years ago

Those aren’t very classic for bodybuilding, rather they are the ones for powerlifting. Bodybuilding uses a very wide variety of movements incorporating dumbbells, barbells, and machines to train every single muscle periodically (even focusing on little tiny ones no one else would care about).

Here’s a good example of a bodybuilding training routine: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/first-bodybuildi...

That said, I’m also curious what GP was referring to, specifically. Was he saying like “don’t do dumbbell curls”?

Octabrain5• 4 years ago

By classic I meant the typical set of isolation excercises focused on heavy load of weights. I said a disaster because I felt that continuing on that path I would have injuried myself.

jimt1234• 4 years ago

Those are powerlifting exercises. In fact, that's the exact order of events in most powerlifting competitions.

I competed in powerlifting in my 20s; my life revolved around squat/bench/deadlift. I enjoyed it, but yeah, he's right: training like that is very specific, like anything else, I suppose. I could squat, bench and deadlift a ton, but literally anyone could beat me walking up the stairs, or even arm-wrestling. The first time I tried CrossFit, it nearly killed me. And yeah, powerlifting tore my body to shit. Back then, the only time I wasn't in pain, was when I was lifting.

UniverseHacker2• 4 years ago

Doing the traditional powerlifting lifts like you mentioned is something can can be sustained long term, and has incredible health benefits. I am a competitive strength athlete, and there are a ton of people in the community that have been lifting competitively for as much as 40-50 years and are still in great shape. Proper form and technique are critical to preventing injury, I have only seen people get injured when they are doing things unsafely or incorrectly. I have never had a major injury or issue with heavy weight training, and have been doing it for 17 years now myself. It's been life changing for me- I have so much more energy, focus, mental strength, and calm.

Competitive bodybuilding however is a totally different thing (very different lifts- mostly light weight, very high rep), and I think the extreme diet and drugs alone takes a toll on your body regardless of the workouts.

xeromal• 4 years ago

I know 3 types of names that from the outside look the same but mean different things within the strength circles.

* Weightlifting (Clean & Jerk, Snatch)

* Powerlifting (Squat, Bench, Deadlift, Maybe Bentover Row)

* Bodybuilding (High volume isolation exercises)

runnerup2• 4 years ago

But is your version better for aesthetics in addition to being better for wellness?

Octabrain5• 4 years ago

Well, that's a subjetive question but for giving you an idea, with weights I had a bigger body (as a result of the muscular hypertrophy) that was heavier, slower and had to develop and maintain with a strict diet whereas now I am ripped (no fat, well defined, six pack etc)

arcturus17• 4 years ago

There are safe ways to do hypertrophy with weights if you manage volumes and exercise selection well. I've been training in bodybuilding, powerlifting and powerbuilding styles for the last 18 years and have barely had any problems. Conversely, I've also trained in bodyweight/calisthenic styles and have had problems resulting from overuse, as I was cranking up the volume to make up for the lack of resistance.

I don't think a style of training is better than any other, people can get outstanding results or get injured in all types of practice - it all boils down to the program detail and the individual.

What works best for me in terms of maximizing wellness is low-volume (3x3 or 3x5), high intensity (but not too high) strength training with compound lifts, a few accessories (rotational, abs, rear delts, etc.), plus any cardio that's not heavy on the joints.

paxys• 4 years ago

There is zero science behind this. Professional body builders have chronic issues not because of the exercises but rather the intensity of training and specialized focus on certain muscles/aesthetics. You can say the same for pro athletes in most other sports as well.

An amateur doing a standard squat, bench press, curl, deadlift etc. routine with manageable weights and good guidance/form is absolutely going to benefit from it. A quick, high intensity weight routine few times a week is probably the best lifestyle change you can make for long term health.

Fricken4• 4 years ago

At the climbing gym body builders show up and they're more likely to be worse than the typical sunken chested beginner.

Dancers, gymnasts, Martial artists, and calisthenics guys show up and tend to do pretty well at climbing straight out of the gate. They bothered to learn how to move, and the skills translate at least somewhat.

When it comes to health and longevity, simply going for a brisk walk on a regular basis will realize the lion's share of benefits.

MichaelDickens4• 4 years ago

There is zero science behind this.

I was curious about this so I did a little searching. I found some studies showing that resistance training has lower injury rates than contact sports, and youth resistance training in particular is safer than pretty much any other athletic activity. But I didn't find any studies that covered bodyweight strength training, so I couldn't evaluate GP's claims. Regardless, given the low injury rate for resistance training, I think it's fair to recommend people lift weights, and I mostly agree with your last sentence.

skizm• 4 years ago

Compared with undertaking no resistance training, undertaking any amount of resistance training reduced the risk of all-cause mortality by 15% ... cardiovascular disease mortality by 19% ... and cancer mortality by 14% ...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35599175/

davidvarela_us5• 4 years ago

I strongly disagree. Weight training is one of the best gifts you can give your body. It keeps you healthy and event prevents injury if done correctly.

What you did wrong was not weight training but following an unbalanced training regimen. No judgement there, I was guilty of the same when I was younger. I think younger/uninformed lifters tend to "ego lift" and focus on size over aspects of physical training. It is easy to fall into this trap when social media is heavily skewed toward steroid users.

Building physical strength is no sin. But you have to approach it from a health and not ego-centered perspective. This means lifting within your ability and with good form, practicing mobility exercises, and understanding the kinetic chain.

Developing a healthy body is a lifelong and rewarding journey. I recommend anyone starting their fitness journey to ground themselves in functional strength and physical therapy instead of the bro culture that is rampant in the fitness industry. I recommend the channels AthleanX and Kneesovertoesguy on YouTube if you want learn from people who teach safe and balanced approaches to strength.

AmericanChopper• 4 years ago

AthleanX is a fake-natty idiot who has made a meme out of himself by giving consistently self-conflicting and nonsensical advice (and by using fake weights in his videos lol…). Kneesovertoesguy has great advice for joint health, but nobody should pay any attention to AthleanX.

peter_l_downs• 4 years ago

I will second the endorsement for AthleanX and KneesOverToesGuy. They have both helped me recover from injuries I suffered due to imbalances created by poor training practices. They've helped me improve both strength and mobility (turns out they're related!) and stay healthy. KOTG has been most helpful for injury recovery; Athlean X is mostly just fun. But they both promote learning about your body and the kinetic chain and how an exercise affects your muscles.

xwdv2• 4 years ago

Jeff Nippard is probably more to hackernews taste. Not really sure if he’s true natty but regardless his videos are much more scientific and data driven than other influencers.

Octabrain5• 4 years ago

Agree to disagree. I guess each body behaves differently. Worth mentioning that I was always cautious with the amount of weigths and strict with the executiom. Never got injured, however as I said, I could felt the load in my joints and also felt how my body became bigger and slower, where, for the activities I perform that was a burden.

wintermutestwin• 4 years ago

Body weight exercises can be a recipe for joint overload compared to weights/machines.

For example, bodyweight pullups or dip are way more weight than I would do for a 12 rep working set and don't allow for warmup weights.

dirtyid3• 4 years ago

IRC barbell strength training injury rates are lower than most activities for CASUAL practitioners but explodes (like most sports) when progress towards relatively advanced levels, which IMO, and in agreement with you, is probably counter productive for most people. I can't seem to find the routines NASA gives astronauts on ISS to prevent muscle atrophy and maintain bone density, but it was something stupid easy (as in achievable for gen pop) like 10s with around body weight on squats / deadlifts on their fancy ARED lifting machine, and 50-75% for overhead / bench, with the explict goal of minimizing injury chance. But they do exercise very frequently, almost everyday since no gravity, but I think most people are fine with doing even a reduced volume version a couple times a week.

Issue with bodyweight activities, is they're pretty poor for developing and maintaining lower body strength, and that (i.e broken hips) is one of the top reasons people break themselves in later life. It doesn't take much for one badly leveraged move climbing/gymastics/martial arts to enter snap city. Especially with explosive concentric components, i.e. something like depth jump is considered extremely high risk injury exercise. There's a lot of bodyweight movements especially in context of activities where one can over-exert/commit. Modest weight training is calibrated and repeatable and less risky in that sense.

syntheweave• 4 years ago

My personal anecdotes agree, somewhat.

A genuine full-body movement(like the various modes of crawling, my go-to for general exercise) involves more joints and stabilization than bodybuilding motions, which tend to be isolated. Training naturally, it's easier to experience overall healthy results with a balanced approach since everything supports everything else.

At the same time, bodybuilders tend to be as big as they are in large part because of an intense drug culture. Advanced natural bodybuilders will top out around the physique of a Steve Reeves, which is big, but nothing like a Schwarzenegger or later pros where the drugs are in play. With that degree of hypertrophy it's going into a realm where the muscles are often stronger than the joints; mobility tends to suffer and injury rates rise. Olympic weightlifters and powerlifters don't have quite the same problem because their training emphasizes overall strength, which also improves their mobility, so you can find video examples of heavy lifters who break their PR and then jump up in the air and do splits. Those guys are still using PEDs, and they are still heavy and gas out quickly in another athletic setting like climbing, combat sports etc., but they avoid having precisely the same kinds of issues.

I do think the weights are good at being efficient, which is a different aspect of this. Programming in some weights as a way to progress through a plateau elsewhere can be a great idea. But they add a ton of fatigue because they're so efficient, so it's quite easy to overtrain without a periodized approach, and in my weightlifting days I was basically always near or over that line of overtraining.

Nowadays I use bands, but as a supplement, just as with the weight vests.

0xcde4c3db• 4 years ago

Advanced natural bodybuilders will top out around the physique of a Steve Reeves, which is big, but nothing like a Schwarzenegger or later pros where the drugs are in play.

It's also worth keeping in mind that many "natural" bodybuilders are also using drugs, just less aggressively. Apart from the rampant "fake natty influencer" phenomenon, there is simply no way for competitions to catch every possible stack/cycle (especially stuff like HGH or insulin).

thewizardofaus• 4 years ago

This is extremely common in the triphasic training approach.

"Each block focuses on a particular portion of the main lifts—the eccentric (down) phase, the isometric (static) phase, and the concentric (up) phase."

Another common technique for force production in elite sport is to use weight releasers that overload the eccentric phase of a movement.

For example; squat eccentric 200kg, weight releases, concentric with 100kg.

ehnto3• 4 years ago

I am enjoying seeing so many different training styles in the comments, and the commonality in some of them. We train using pause sets which sounds like what you mean by the static portion of a lift? Unless you mean the squeeze at the top of a lift?

Squat down, pause for a few seconds, then up.

cashsterling• 4 years ago

A set of gymnastic rings for 50USD is a great investment if you can find a good place to use them. I have a set that I take with me to the gym.

Ring dips and push-ups are awesome pushing exercises. Ring dips especially put a lot of load on the chest in way that almost no other exercise does.

Ring pull-ups and rows are great pull exercises. Rings allow you to do a lot of interesting movements and variations on these exercises.

FitnessFAQs on youtube has a lot of good videos on ring exercise form and routines.

penjelly2• 4 years ago

pull-up bar and rings and you're set. these days 80-100$ on Amazon

gligorot• 4 years ago

Not quite…the door bars will all result in “low” rings - which heavily limit your vertical movement range.

If you can attach them to your ceiling you’ll have better experience. I’m lucky to have a thicker concrete ceiling though.

freediver• 4 years ago

How effective are push-ups as an average Joe's muscle exercise?

loeg• 4 years ago

I'd recommend squats instead.

meltyness2• 4 years ago

Lot of a average Joe's can't do them. I'm probably in good company to say you really only need 6 exercises.

From light to heavy: Chinups, Shoulder press, Rows, Bench, Squat, Deadlift

Or, roughly, in calisthenics: Chins, shoulder push-ups, pull-ups, push-ups, squat, sit-ups.

Probably the most useful of these movements is deadlift, nothing will make throwing office furniture around more fun than the strength you can train with deadlifts. Front raising a TV off the wall is pretty cool, too.

randoglando• 4 years ago

Can you link to a sit-up? Is that a crunch? I don't understand how it is a parallel for deadlifts.

alxmng• 4 years ago

Push-ups are great for strength, muscle growth, and health. But their usefulness for strength and muscle growth drops off once you are able to perform many standard push-ups. At that point you’d need to do harder variations (like archer push-up) or weighted push-ups to keep seeing muscle growth and strength gains.

agumonkey• 4 years ago

I loved them. Get floor handles to avoid stressing your wrists at first. Go slow, stay flat, breath deep. Simple routine: pushups, crunches, diagonal crunches, squats like exercises.

But I prefer normal sports (running, biking, soccer.. anything) when I can.

davidvarela_us5• 4 years ago

Any exercise is better than no exercise. But in my experience, bodyweight training will not put you anywhere near the ballpark of size/strength that a good weight training program can.

I say this because I see a lot of impressive looking dudes selling calisthenics programs, but I heavily suspect that the lift weights and/or do steroids in addition to bodyweight programs.

I exclusively did bodyweight training during the pandemic and it kept me healthy and my physique definitely improved for the better. Once the gyms opened and I went back to weight training, my size/strength absolutely blew up from what it was before with no changes in diet/sleep/time spent training. I gained about 18 lbs of muscle in a pretty short amount of time and I suspect I can gain a good deal more once I dial in my diet and sleep.

tanbog62• 4 years ago

In weight training this is also referred to as "tempo" and can be expressed as a set of 4 numbers. Eg: 2 - 0 - 4 - 0

Which would mean: 2 second up, pause 0 seconds, negative for 4 seconds, pause 0 seconds start again.

Adjusting the tempo is a big part of most advanced training schedules.

If you do any training beyond simple resistance training I feel like you would encounter the concept. It's very old.

tanbog62• 4 years ago

I also have fond memories of my highschool weights coach yelling "fast up, slow down!!!" At us over and over again.

ipcress_file• 4 years ago

I read on a bodybuilding site years ago that you'd get good results by slowing your eccentric movements to make sure that your muscles are actually lowering the weights. It's one of the practices I've tried to maintain. That and lifting to failure.

trentgreene3• 4 years ago

Hi, worth mentioning that you should explicitly ignore this advice if you’re lifting heavy deadlifts. Eventually you will get to a point on that exercise where your concentric pull can put up vastly more weight than you can safely lower to the ground in a slow manner. Above 3-4 plates and you probably should be dropping the weight. Maybe even less. Your lumbar will thank you.

MichaelDickens4• 4 years ago

Eventually you will get to a point on that exercise where your concentric pull can put up vastly more weight than you can safely lower to the ground in a slow manner.

I'm not particularly qualified to speak on this, but this does not match my experience. I can deadlift 455 lb with great difficulty, but I can lower 455 lb to the ground fairly easily. And I don't see any physiological reason why this would be true—if your back muscles can support the weight on the way up, then they should be able to support it on the way down, when your body is subjected to less force.

atchoo2• 4 years ago

I think I'd agree with the OP, the eccentric is more precarious. Weakness on the pull and the bar slows/stops but there is still control, weakness on a slow lowering and the weight runs away from you breaking your form. When you are at 4+ plates then your strength on the day can be a little unpredictable and your 5 rep max can be lower than it was last week and you don't want to discover that in a precarious position.

It's like comparing driving up a steep hill vs. coasting down a hill with just the brake, a slight bump or misjudgement and things get hairy quick because gravity is compounding your mistakes.

ehnto3• 4 years ago

Gravity acts over time, if you are slowly lowering it you could be expriencing the same force practically as on the way up.

The reason you don't do it for powerlifting is because you're more likely to injure yourself after a max effort lift (like a one rep max lift in competition). Since you exerted maximally on the way up and may struggle controlling it on the way down it while exhausted. All the other compound lifts in powerlifting end at the finish of max exertion so don't have that issue.

If you are only training for general reasons you might not run into it, but if you are a powerlifting athlete doing 5, 3 or 1 rep sets for comp then this is good advice.

trentgreene3• 4 years ago

Heh, ‘drop’ is an overloaded term. I don’t mean you need to release the bar from your hands or not follow through on the eccentric. By ‘drop the bar’, I mean you shouldn’t resist during the eccentric portion in the same way you might during a pull up or curl. Said another way, on heavy deads, your eccentric should be noticeably quicker than the concentric. The bar falls to the floor with you attached.

The other commenters explain why — you’re building up fatigue during the concentric, easier to over round on the eccentric if you resist.

It’s worth caveating to that there are many ways to pull, and I could imagine someone lightening the weight to resist and control the eccentric. But in the the style of pulling I grew up with, a set of 5 reps functioned more like 5 heavy singles in a row, with some seconds of rest and resetting form between pulls. I’ve never seen controlled and resisted eccentrics with that style, and the thought of it lit scares me.

PS. Pulling 455 means that you almost certainly have some expertise in this matter ;). That’s not an untrained pull

dirtyid3• 4 years ago

IIRC you can generally handle 120-140% weight of concentric with eccentric. The issue is HEAVY eccentric for advanced lifters is extremely taxing and fatiguing on body and is suboptimial in how much it can eat away at overall routine volume / practice by pushing body into recovery debt that ultimately drives progression (for many). Singles with 90%+ or supermax (over 100% 1RM) eccentrics when programmed are done with very few reps (often just last rep to pins/safety, anything over handful singles per week is considered machoistic). Otherwise it's reserved for tempo work i.e. 4010 or 40X0 (4 second down, no pause at bottom, 1 second up or X explode up, no wait at top) with relatively light %s that doesn't fatigue for technique work.

oarfish2• 4 years ago

Is there any supporting evidence for this? On the face of it, it seems highly illogical, considering you'll pretty much always be much stronger on the eccentric than the concentric. It's more a matter of learning to brace correctly, I'd say.

Your lumbar will thank you.

This to me reinforces the unfounded and harmful narrative that deadlifting, or generally low back exercises pose more danger to the spine than e.g. not lifting.

rkapsoro• 4 years ago

A great way to be terribly sore all the time.

gagabity• 4 years ago

They should develop some sort of conveyor belt machine that takes the weights up so you only have to lower them! Otherwise gym pulley style machines seem perfect for this.

davidvarela_us5• 4 years ago

There is a technique known as "cheat reps" in strength training. The idea is to recruit more/stronger muscles to cover the concentric motion and to isolate the muscle you are training in the eccentric. It is an excellent tool when used intelligently. I wouldn't recommend it for beginners because it can make it easy to injure yourself and is not really needed until your strength starts to plateau anyway.

90d• 4 years ago

Food for thought, someone who struggles to fit a gym routine into their life is not someone who knows how to train their muscles efficiently. Thanks for the article, Australia.

MichaelDickens4• 4 years ago

As is often the case with these sorts of studies, I'd be wary of over-extrapolating. The study specifically looked at the dumbbell curl only among untrained individuals. If you did a similar study on trained individuals, or on a compound movement like a squat or a bench press, I'd expect to see different results. (In fact, it's effectively impossible to only perform the eccentric portion of a squat or a bench press unless you're only doing a single rep.)

Another concern is that they increased intensity at the same rate for all trainees:

The training intensity was increased progressively from 30% (1st session) to 50% (2nd and 3rd sessions), 70% (4th and 5th sessions), 80% (6th and 7th sessions), 90% (8th and 9th sessions), and 100% (10th session)

(Note: I was unclear on how they determined training intensity)

It's plausible that the trainees who are doing concentric+eccentric could tolerate a faster increase in intensity than the eccentric-only trainees, but because they didn't increase intensity as fast as they could have, they didn't show any extra strength gains.

galangalalgol• 4 years ago

I'd like to see a study of people who do slowed negatives on deadlifts vs just barely controlling it on the way down.

grvdrm2• 4 years ago

Absolutely - I understand there are some practical reasons for doing it that way but I’m always surprised to see people wasting that lowering portion simply by dropping the weight. Serious control on the way down helps too!

Another way I think about it: the weight shouldn’t bounce on the floor. If it does, slow it down.

MichaelDickens4• 4 years ago

I'd also like to see that. Might be hard though--if you're studying untrained individuals in a 6 week program, they're going to see such massive gains in their deadlift that I don't think programming will make much difference. I would rather see a study on experienced lifters over 6 months, but that's probably not going to happen.

brailsafe8• 4 years ago

It's pretty common advice for training pull-ups to start with the eccentric movement to build strength. Easy enough to do.

joaonmatos• 4 years ago

Yes, but that’s just because most people have stronger legs than backs so it’s easier for them to jump up to the bar that to pull themselves up.

dameyawn• 4 years ago

effectively impossible

Maybe if you are alone, but you could easily get spotted for a bench press and put low effort into raising the bar each rep.

j33zusjuice5• 4 years ago

(In fact, it's effectively impossible to only perform the eccentric portion of a squat or a bench press unless you're only doing a single rep.)

That’s true for all movements, unless someone is resetting it for you. If you don’t move the weight to the top, you can’t lower it again.

lta• 4 years ago

I guess for many movements, it's possible to switch to a one-sided equivalent and use the other hand for an easier reset. Barbell press -> dumbbell press

shakabrah• 4 years ago

you can do eccentric overloaded training. check out flywheel machines like exerfly.

l1tany11• 4 years ago

They used a 1 Rep Max type intensity calculation (which is very common) and to get that baseline they used an isometric contraction with a joint angle of 50deg. So basically you put someone on the machine, set the angle, tell them what to do and give them ~3 tries to do a bicep curl as hard as they can. Since the “weight” isn’t allowed to move, it’s just down to how hard each individual can pull.

I’m pretty sure they used a machine like a biodex that is basically a load cell/resistance unit that you can setup for different movements and contraction types. It works based on an arm coming off a rotational unit. So direct load cell measurements are torque. Torque can then be used to calculate other things depending on what you’re doing.

The results are interpreted and that sets the individual’s Maximum Voluntary Contraction Isometric Torque, which again is basically just 1RM on this machine.

anonymouswacker• 4 years ago

Reminds me of the Blood Flow Restriction / Kaatsu method [0], which I've added in my own routine and had great results with lower weights and less pain. I regularly do BFR negatives and see great results, given I spend very little time in the gym.

0 - https://bengreenfieldlife.com/article/fitness-articles/worko...

davidvarela_us5• 4 years ago

Thanks for sharing this. I'm a huge nerd when it comes to optimizing training programs.

This seems like it could be as big of a hack as Zone 2 training [0] was when I discovered it. It is amazing how little we know about our bodies given that we all have one!

0: https://www.howardluksmd.com/zone-2-hr-training-live-longer-...

nsxwolf• 4 years ago

Ok so do you have to get someone else to raise them for you

up2isomorphism• 4 years ago

I don’t think you become the woman in the picture by just “lowering weights “

rd112352• 4 years ago

From the actual paper:

Methods Non-resistance-trained young adults were assigned to one of the four groups: CON-ECC (n= 14), CON (n=14) and ECC (n= 14) training groups, and a control group (n=11) that had measurements only.

Not sure why this is getting so much attention. Evidence wise it’s only a hair stronger than the anecdotal stories / advice in the top comments.

virtual_void• 4 years ago

N is not the only thing that matters here. It is important but if you’re disregarding results solely on that basis then it’s unfounded.

I noted from reading the paper that they based their sample size on a previous paper that shows the effect size for contractual muscle strength to be 0.6 and turned that in to a sample size estimate (in that paper). The same technique was used here and they nearly doubled the sample size from the previous study. It seems from a first reading that they have the statistical power to make the conclusions they do.

The study that shows 0.6 for effect size was a meta analysis that i do not have access to via my institution, but I’m curious as to why you think this paper is no better than anecdote. Perhaps some other part of their methods?

Their results show at the very least that it might be worth a bigger study (more N) but there’s nothing outrageously wrong with their methodology, is there?

rd112352• 4 years ago

My comment isn’t about the paper. It’s only about the surprising response it’s getting from HN. This small level of evidence can be found in some paper for almost any fitness claim one can imagine. (And that is not at all a knock against the paper - as you said, it can e.g. warrant larger studies.)

dehrmann• 4 years ago

Using a dumbbell, Professor Nosaka recommends using two hands to help with the concentric (lifting weight) phase, before using one arm for the eccentric phase (lowering weight)...

The two-hand approach just feels like a headache.

There's a common trick people do to take advantage of how you can handle more weight in the eccentric phase of the motion. You "cheat" to get it up, then lower it controlled with strict form. Push press up, military press down.

nkozyra• 4 years ago

Cheating used to be super common to focus on eccentric for a lot of exercises but it seems like it fell out of favor since I first started lifting.

There's also chains and other equipment to help in this regard but I've found that going 2x or 3x as slow as concentric increases difficulty a lot.

flamebreath447• 4 years ago

So there’s a few really good resources on what we would now call minimalistic training.

Most people who go to the Gym do not need to squeeze out every ounce of progression. Unlike the fitness industry which is obsessed with small percentage gains because they are already in the 90+ percentile.

The study sighted really doesn’t do it justice to explain how much is enough to get the balanced, healthy long term impacts of going to the gym.

Go watch Jeff Nippards video on minimalist training, he also has a video interviewing someone whose PhD research is in this area.

tl;dr weight training for 45 minutes to an hour 3 times a week is often enough to gain 80% of the benefits from going to the gym (this excludes cardio vascular capacity and health)

wellthisisgreat• 4 years ago

What are some quality strength oriented YouTube channels fitness channels that you’d recommend?

Kneesovertoesguy was mentioned already, I also like clarence0

Anyone else who puts out quality content and not memes/ tricks?

davidvarela_us5• 4 years ago

- mostly science based strength: Jeff Nippard, The Bioneer - athletic movements/ injury prevention: overtimeathletes, AthleanX - mobility: Tom Merrick, GuerillaZen - overall health: FoundMyFitness (highly recommended)

dirtyid3• 4 years ago

Dumb study with:

Non-resistance-trained young adults

As long as novice lifters fuck around consistently with challenging weights they'll milk their beginner gains within a reasonable time frame (months), being slightly suboptimal will make the process slightly longer. "All you need" is just finding a routine that you can stick to consistently / sustainably that leads to your goals. Sure you can do only negatives but just about everything works for beginners, so do something you enjoy. In my experience most people don't like negatives, they're challenging/fatiguing vs normal reps work. Exception being bodyweight exercises like pullup/dips where slowly moving in space (forgot technical term) works very well for building groove.

cameronh90• 4 years ago

Has anyone else had a complete lack of success with any kind of weight lifting?

I find that whenever I try to lift, it starts well, but after a few weeks, the amount I can lift over time begins to decrease and I start getting pain in my tendons.

I've tried low reps low weight, high reps low weight, 1 day a week 3 days a week, etc. had my form checked by a personal trainer and there doesn't seem to be any obvious reason for it. It seems like any time I put more load on my body than it experiences through normal day to day life, it just slowly accumulates damage quicker than it can heal.

xwdv2• 4 years ago

I don’t know you but everything you’ve described sounds like symptoms of suboptimal nutrition.

tl;dr: Eat a gram of protein per pound of body weight daily, eat carbs and good fats. Supplement with creatine 5g a day (improves ATP). Drink a lot of water.

switchupcb• 4 years ago

Track your calories (eat more) and get more sleep for your Central Nervous System. Take more rest days between workouts, even if it sounds counterintuitive. Engage in non-static stretches and don't sit so much at work.

Source: Check my Instagram.

marcusverus• 4 years ago

Are you getting enough protein? According to the meatheads, optimal protein intake (while trying to add muscle) is ~1.2-1.5 grams of protein per kg of bodyweight per day.

faithcsc• 4 years ago

I had the exact same experience and have recently given up. Tried to lift less, eat better, etc. No matter what, I would randomly get really exhausted for 3-4 days. It just wasn't sustainable.

My new years resolution is to quit lifting and find any exercise routine that's sustainable and doesn't drain my energy.

j33zusjuice5• 4 years ago

Have you seen a doctor? Because your body should not respond so negatively.

It may also be worth exploring joint health supplements. https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/dietary-supplement...

I can’t imagine whatever you two have going on is indicative of good joint health, so supplementing some support may be a good idea for you even if you stick to your resolution. Of course, I think this is good advice, but I don’t know if these supplements are contraindicated for you somehow, so you should see a doctor either way, imo.

the_arcadian• 4 years ago

Read up on creatine - it may help you.

sawmurai2• 4 years ago

It seems like any time I put more load on my body than it experiences through normal day to day life, it just slowly accumulates damage quicker than it can heal.

That is the case if you don't give your body enough resources (food, rest) to recover from training. Your tendon problem reminds me of my own tendons :) They just need more time to recover and adapt and are the first thing to "break". For my wife its the opposite. Never ever has she had any problems with her tendons, but other things in her legs give her regular trouble. The muscle is really the most forgiving part of the machinery.

And it does not matter if others have no problems with the same stuff that you do. People are horribly different and the majority of the result is predetermined by genetics. You can't even out-PED genetics.

Source: We have both been competing in powerlifting on the national level (ok, Switzerland is small and everyone competes on the national level) for a couple of years now

j33zusjuice5• 4 years ago

That is not normal. You should see a doctor.

I’m assuming you started with very low weight and slowly increased over a period of 4-8 weeks. It wouldn’t be too surprising if your joints hurt in non-debilitating way for the first few weeks you started working out, but it should subside fairly quickly between workouts.

If you can’t or won’t go to a doctor for some reason, and you want to try weight lifting again, you could look into joint supplements like glucosamine and chondroitin (https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/dietary-supplement...), and maybe look non-pharmaceutical anti-inflammatories (turmeric, etc.). It might be worth looking into these things if your joints can’t handle stress even if you don’t want to lift.

Of course, this is non-medical write. I think this is a good idea, but I don’t know if these supplements are contraindicated for you somehow.

mjfl• 4 years ago

As someone who has lifted for a long time, negative reps are great. I primarily do negative reps in my lifts for both safety and locking in gains - if you can do negatives in reps of 10 it's hard to lose that ability even if you take a long break.

bsder• 4 years ago

1) I thought the current science is that "knee extensions" and "leg curls" were considered to be particularly bad for you and highly prone to injury.

2) Did this go out of style and come back? I remember hearing about the benefits of "isometric overload" like this the whole way back in the late 1980s.

Mouse47• 4 years ago

Conventional wisdom says leg extensions are bad for your knees but I think the science is shaky at best. I used to believe this also until I tore my ACL about 6 months ago (I'm currently 3 months post-reconstruction).

For a long time physical therapists wouldn't recommend knee extensions for ACL reconstruction rehab due to forces through the graft, but that has changed recently. My PT recommends them to me.

Read this: https://theprehabguys.com/is-the-knee-extension-machine-safe...

TLDR: 1.Squats place a similar force through your knee, except the force peaks when your knee is bent rather than when it's straight (as in leg extensions)

2.Leg extensions are the only reliable way to rebuild quad strength post surgery, and quad strength is by far the strongest predictor of reinjury to the ACL.

I believe my lack of quad-specific training contributed to my initial injury. I did tons of squats and deads and my hamstrings/glutes were strong, but I think my quads were behind. I had trouble slowing down from a sprint during soccer/walking down stairs prior to my injury, and I think those were warning signs

throwawayoaky• 4 years ago

doesn't just build muscle-- heals cartilege. fixed my tendonitis

thefz• 4 years ago

It found those who only lowered a weight saw the same improvements as those who raised and lowered weights — despite only performing half the number of repetitions.

But you need to get the weight back up, don't you?

amai• 4 years ago

I‘d rather recommend https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-intensity_interval_trai...

like https://www.12minuteathlete.com/

Because you should not forget to also strengthen your heart muscle and endurance.

Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do

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