Ask HN: How do you protect your children from internet addiction?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34019486

by Archipelagia • 4 years ago

286 277 4 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I'm using "internet addiction" here in a loose sense. Think of all modern hyper-engaging online services: TikTok, MMORPGs, social media, video games, porn, etc.

I think HN users might be especially aware of how addicting these can be, so do you take any precautions to help your children avoid falling prey to them?

smoldesu• 4 years ago

Enable them to do more real-life stuff. Kids see technology as a bottomless pit of fulfillment, which is mostly true if your alternatives are frolicking outside or wishing you could buy something cool. If you instead provide them the means to make/do something they're proud of, they'll probably have a healthier relationship with social media and the internet. Get them a sewing kit, buy that bin of used Legos on Ebay, or get the breadboarding stuff they keep asking about. If you give a kid an iPhone, they're going to be constantly attached to it simply on the basis that it's the most expensive thing in their possession.

Obviously though, you're not going to protect your children from themselves. IMO, the best you can do as a parent is teach them healthy means of self-expression.

mattpallissard2• 4 years ago

I don't them use my devices outside of school projects and keep them busy doing things outside the house.

I realize this is easier for me than most as my oldest is only 13, we homeschool, and we live in a very rural area with high community engagement. Meaning the social pressure to be online just isn't currently there.

Once they have a job and can buy their own devices they can do what they please. Hopefully, the disdainful tone I use when explaining social media companies to them fully sinks in by then.

LAC-Tech3• 4 years ago

Hopefully, the disdainful tone I use when explaining social media companies to them fully sinks in by then.

Yeah kids are famous for doing everything their parents say ;)

mattpallissard2• 4 years ago

Oh I have no doubts they'll give everything a whirl. There's a certain amount of suffering required before you start reconsidering lessons you had previously written off.

quickthrower2• 4 years ago

Screen time limits, and try to offer lots of things to do. This is a lot easier with disposable income. But without a simple bicycle and nearby park can go a long way.

But the games, videos and internet are very addictive: when I was young it was just the dopamine hit of playing a game. But now it is culture. Friends at school are on Roblox, Discord etc. This makes it more challenging and more fights and begging etc.

A hard one. As a parent a small part of the role is to be the mean unpopular person sometimes ;-)

codegeek• 4 years ago

This is something I think about a lot with 3 kids. I personally believe that we need a balance between allowing devices/internet (because this is 2022) and restricting few things.

For me, social media is an absolute No and I will fight my kids until I can't. For example, there is no way I am going to let my 8 year old do Tick Tok or Snapchat and what not. It is way too toxic even for adults let alone a child who has not fully developed mentally and emotionally yet. However, we restrict by talking to them openly about why we don't think it is a good idea and then show them that we are still giving them these other freedoms. Most kids appreciate that if you are honest instead of just saying No.

I don't think you can restrict using apps or parental controls because those can be bypassed once kids get smarter. We have 0 parental controls on the devices they use. I want my kids to learn the difference between good and bad by having access and freedom but the right information.

On the flip side, we don't restrict them from doing iPad/laptop to play certain types of games (.e.g word puzzle) or even minecraft etc. We don't restrict them from doing things on internet like google slides for creativity etc. We don't restrict them from watching Youtube or movies for kids under our supervision.

The other thing is to not give them too much opportunity to do devices/internet. If they are busy with an activity, they don't care. If they have nothing to do, they "get bored" and want to be on their devices. So create enough opportunity for them to do activities ideally something that doesn't involve internet/devices etc. So far, our kids have been very good with boundaries and the freedom they have to do things. I know that if you restrict everything, that won't work.

annoyingnoob2• 4 years ago

I tend to agree. My kids have to earn device time by doing other things. We use ScreenTime with my son to keep him honest. Also had to setup a network for the kids that turns off between 11pm and 7am, caught them on devices late at night a few times. You need to give them opportunities but you also need to keep them honest, sometimes that takes limits.

type0• 4 years ago

Encourage their interests in good things like physical activities, science, technology, books, music, theater.

padde• 4 years ago

Internet is technology. It's a blurry line... When mine come up with creative ways to circumvent Internet access restrictions (e.g. use mobile phone as hotspot for the laptop, because for that I had set a limited time window in the router) I'm happy to see a future hacker on one hand, and really pissed on the other hand because I seem to have ended up in an arms race.

SpeedilyDamage2• 4 years ago

You teach them about moderation, you give them the tools to make their own choices, and you protect them from the obvious/bad outcomes that would cause irreparable harm.

So like, add a network filter for gore/porn up to a certain age, and try to do a good job of showing how to invest their time as a reward function rather than the instant gratification path.

But ultimately, babying them will prevent them from growing, and the moment they get out of your clutches (how they'll see it) they'll binge/overindulge and not have anyone to stop the irreversible mistakes from happening.

Limiting technology access creates a perverse relationship between the kid and tech. If you want your kid to see technology as a tool, not as a reward, you can't treat it like a reward. It's super easy, but it sets the wrong example.

jackson1442• 4 years ago

Strongly, strongly agree.

I think of it similar to the issue of college students and drinking. Freshman with highly restrictive parents are at a greater risk of getting alcohol poisoning because they try to "make up for lost time" or something when they move out.

My parents tried to limit a bunch of stuff in our house while I was growing up, and it never ever worked. Once I figured out self-regulation I was much better off.

kraf4• 4 years ago

I'd say may restrictive parents don't teach them about how to use alcohol responsibly because they're not allowed to have it. It's obviously bad when Mr chug chug chug is teaching you

gumboza• 4 years ago

Lego. Still works every time here.

koalaman• 4 years ago

After having spent a fair amount of time using various different tools to attempt to control their screen time, my conclusion is that it was a mistake to have any screens in the house in the first place.

A library of great books, good games, craft and art materials, and a collection of musical instruments would have been the best thing for my kids I'm thinking. Screens just make them addicted and miserable.

agentwiggles2• 4 years ago

A library of great books, good games, craft and art materials, and a collection of musical instruments would have been the best thing for my kids I'm thinking. Screens just make them addicted and miserable.

I agree in principle, and one of the saddest things to see is the pile of all these wonderful diversions sitting ignored while Youtube plays. (See my other comment about how we have essentially banned Youtube in my house for this reason).

seneca• 4 years ago

Completely agreed. They may be left out by some peers for not being up to date on internet culture, but they will have much richer lives and personalities for having spent that time with all of the things you listed.

It's a difficult path, and not for everyone, but I think it's the right one for people willing to do it.

slothtrop• 4 years ago

A library of great books, good games, craft and art materials, and a collection of musical instruments would have been the best thing for my kids I'm thinking. Screens just make them addicted and miserable.

Are these mutually exclusive? If those items are around, and kids are taught how to make use of them, they will use them. Restricting screen time might be a necessity but it's less of a sore spot if it can easily be substituted and the habits are ingrained.

freedom2099• 4 years ago

A screen is just a way to display information… I haven’t owned a physical book since 2008 and yet I read 2 or 3 books a month (thx kindle). I got my own pc in 1990 when I was 5… I had a NES where a player the same 6 games for years (and sometimes for hours… I think the amount of time O spent playing WoW pales in comparison of the time I spent playing super Mario bros as a kid). None of the above caused me any issue… it actually helped me find my life purpose (writing software). The problem is the addictivness of some of nowadays content (like reword based mobile games, tiktok, YouTube, etc.). Allowing your kids to use screens to consume the right stuff is a good thing

adastra222• 4 years ago

What is so frustrating is that the schools have pushed this on us. We were mostly screen-free in our house, until our oldest started middle school. Now she has homework she has to do on her Chromebook every night. Only of course she pulls it out and is playing games every time she has a chance. I can't take it away because she has to get her homework done, but I can't control what she accesses either and it is destroying her interest in anything else.

theonething13• 4 years ago

My kid's almost three. From day one, we've implemented a zero screen policy. That means no phones, tablets, computers, TV (don't own one), etc.

We've read to her since day one and she loves books now and her spoken/listening language skills are way ahead for her age. Wife speaks to her in her native language so she's growing up bilingual too. Wife takes her to parks, mommy and me classes where they have story time, sing, physical activities, arts and crafts and free play with toys. At home, we expect her to be able entertain herself with toys, books, backyard, etc.

It's not perfect, but at a parenting class, I heard screens described as crack cocaine for kids, so I'm keeping mine away from that shit for as long as I can. She seems to be doing fine without them and though she's curious when she sees one, she doesn't ask/whine for them.[0] I don't even plan to expose educational app games to her. So many other richer ways to learn in 3D space. I highly doubt she'll fall behind for lack of exposure to screens.

[0] The most screen exposure she gets is with others. People these days don't seem to be able to socialize and interact without their phones.

adaml_6232• 4 years ago

What do you do with her when you are out with friends? Restaurants, etc?

mixmastamyk3• 4 years ago

Sit quietly, talk, color, maybe read. Is this hard to believe? We did that.

ceejayoz2• 4 years ago

Kids went to these places before smartphones. Restaurants, for example, tend to have crayons.

christkv2• 4 years ago

Bring card games, dominos or board games like carcassone junior. The kids will entertain themselves. Set is also very popular.

mercacona2• 4 years ago

Paper and color pencils. Speaking to them, listening to their stories, asking about the place, playing to “guess what I’m watching to”, etc.

If friends expect my son to act as a dog, it’s their wrong.

pea• 4 years ago

One of the nice things about going to southern Europe (Greece, Spain, Italy, etc.), is the lack of expectations of kids to sit quietly at all. From my experience over the last few years, you go to a restaurant at 10pm and everyone's kids are running around, playing together with strangers, or asleep on their parents.

As a parent of a 3 year old in the UK, with friends and restaurants we'd just talk to them or they'd colour, read, etc. Maybe cultural, but it would be seen it as pretty unusual/rude to have a kid with an iPad at a table in a restaurant; although I agree it's a lot to ask of 3 year old to sit there for hours.

theonething13• 4 years ago

Believe or not, especially if we order something she really likes, she'll sit there eating her food and talk to us, making comments about things she notices in her environment. Before the food comes, she'll just look around and make conversation about what she sees.

Could this be just her personality and we got lucky? Possibly. But I'm willing to bet it also has to do with her not being used to screens and instead being used to focusing on the environment in front of and around her. There are studies about the association between screen time and ADHD symptoms.

mehphp• 4 years ago

This question kind of shocks me. We do allow, very limited, screen-time but the concept of having no idea what to do with the kids without a screen is jarring to say the least.

agotterer• 4 years ago

I have a 6 and 4 yr old. We've had a strict no screen during the school week rule. They can watch on weekends, holidays, and sick days. There's a zero screen policy in public, with the exception of airplanes and long road trips.

My kids are really well behave in restaurant and never ask for screens (I'm not even totally sure they would think of it). The trick for us is regularly flowing food, allowing them to bring bring a small toy, coloring utensils, and honestly just engage with them. That could be through visual and word games or just talking to them and asking the right questions. It's hard work, not every meal out is perfect, and sometimes it feel like it would just be easier to give them the phone. But I'm happy that we've taken this stance. I can't tell you how many times a restaurant owner or a nearby table has said how well behaved our kids are.

factsarelolz2• 4 years ago

Interested in your household. Dual income? Single Income w/SAHP?

What is your plan for Grandparents, babysitters, childcare, or even the school system to help maintain no screens?

No screens seems awfully privileged in a way... maybe you're just Bill Gates

Archipelagia• 4 years ago

I think your phrasing is needlessly hostile.

Around the world it's quite common to have an extended family serve as a support network, especially around childcare. You're right though that maintaining no-screen when your child is with others is harder though, and finding how people deal with that was my main motivation for making this thread.

elnr• 4 years ago

maybe you're just Bill Gates

Not impossible.

https://www.businessinsider.com/screen-time-limits-bill-gate...

I think it's quite brash to say that it's "privileged" to raise children with no screens. Would you like to elaborate? People certainly existed without them.

theonething13• 4 years ago

Single income one with wife as SAHM. We live on one software engineer's salary (not FAANG). We make sacrifices with things like size of our house, etc and feel it's worth it to invest that opportunity cost into our children.

I understand that not everyone can live on one income. But more often I see in my circles people that can make it work, but choose not too because they don't want to make that career/financial sacrifice. Instead both parents work and send their kids to daycare. Of course that's totally their choice. I've made a different choice and perhaps this is an unpopular opinion this day and age, but I think it's the best choice if you can make it work financially and are willing to put in the effort that it entails.

MandieD• 4 years ago

We’re 1.5 (I’m the .5) with school-day daycare (absolutely no screens there).

I will cop to allowing him to watch a playlist of nature videos I’ve downloaded and watched through beforehand, on an old laptop, at times when I need to do something urgently without toddler assistance.

Otherwise, he can spend a good hour at the sink “washing” dishes with a trickle of water or attempting to sweep (ignoring his actual toys entirely!)

My husband grew up without a TV in the house in 70s-80s West Germany. His parents eventually got one, but it sits in a side room and is usually just turned on for the 8 o’clock news.

I asked my mother-in-law about this sacrifice on her part. Her answer? She didn’t think she’d have time to watch everything her kids were watching to make sure it was appropriate, so she took Alexander’s solution to that Gordian Knot - they simply sold their TV once their first child was a few months old.

My in-laws’ generation was glad to get enough to eat as children in postwar Germany; a TV was an unimaginable luxury until they were in their teens. She didn't feel like she was depriving her children of anything important.

My husband and his sister weren’t forbidden to watch TV at others’ houses, or to go to the movies. Neither of them ever wanted to buy one for themselves as teenagers or university students, and today, they both keep very quiet houses.

Result? They talk a lot when not sitting around reading. Guests at my in-laws are offered the contents of the decently-stocked magazine stand, a rotation of coffee table books, or if they’d like something from the bookshelves.

I grew up in a stereotypical American house with the TV on all the time, but started escaping it early to hole up in my room with a computer long before most people had internet access at home.

In some ways, I feel more at ease visiting my husband’s family than my own, despite a bit of a language barrier.

One might say there’s less of a lifestyle barrier.

My husband's family has much less money than my American relatives, so privilege has nothing to do with the fact that my German niece got her first dumbphone at 11, puts her school laptop away when her homework is finished and picks up one of her craft projects, and my American nephew has had his own iPad since he was 3, his own TV and AppleTV since he was about 6, and now a Roblox addiction.

gattanimell52• 4 years ago

the thing that really kickstarted my passion for it was when i was left some hours alone with a old netbook, 5-6, and it was very slow, but i wanted to to something cool with it, and I followed some tutorials on YouTube to make small programs in visual basic

KerrAvon• 4 years ago

Find a Waldorf school with a strict no-media policy and you have a fighting chance to keep the kid healthy through grade school.

theonething13• 4 years ago

One of the classes she goes to is in fact Waldorf. ;)

jmacd• 4 years ago

My kids are 6, 7 and 9. We've managed to maintain a screen free upbringing for them and they all have other activities they prefer at this stage. Their school however heavily uses screens and we were pretty shocked to find out they are using them (primarily iPads) for a good portion of their day's classes.

indrora• 4 years ago

I work with someone who went through that. They resent their parents for it.

Wholly and completely resent their parents. Growing up in the later 00s/10s, right as stuff like SMS and especially "social group by text message" came along, it absolutely stunted their ability to make friends.

What it did was disconnect them from their distant peers and meant that making friends outside of their immediate school peers was basically impossible. It also landed them an extremely deep rut of depression, causing them to spend their free time for years sinking into alt-right stuff that actively preys on "people sheltered from social media as kids".

Everything in the under-18 space is organized in real time online behind adults backs. Never let anyone tell you otherwise. Kids plot against the adults. The fact of the matter is that social media is the way we engage with so much art, culture, and society that these sorts of schools hurt kids in the long run.

I leave you with the track Turntable Winding Down [0] from the album Public Domain. The intro/outro were stripped when the band re-released the album "legit", but Archive.org has the original because, of course they do.

[0] https://archive.org/details/TryadTryadPublicDomain/Tryad__17...

kleiba2• 4 years ago

But your child will not be almost three forever. I have one in the same age bracket myself with three older siblings. The little one has practically no interest in screen time anyway, but it's a completely different story with the older ones.

At some point, they will get in touch with media one way or the other. In our case, once they get into school, they'll be using ipads anyway. So, I agree that for very little children, there's is absolutely no need to expose them to any screen time, but at some point as they get older, they will need to learn how to use phones and media.

We're still very restrictive with screen time, though. It's more like a treat that they get to play with a device for 30 minutes (which I, honestly, find already too long, but I'm not a single parent).

theonething13• 4 years ago

Zero to three are critical years for child development. The brain grows to 80% of its adult size by then.

What happens doing those years has outsized effects on the child the rest of their life.

So yes, I won't be able to shield her from screens forever. But I can still do my best to set her up for success and prevent her from being a screen junkie.

yieldcrv2• 4 years ago

I don't find this inspirational compared to another comment "it's better to know about that stuff and how to deal with it than to create a temporary secure enclave at home where it doesn't exist." since the temporary enclave won't be effective

but I am curious if there is inspiration on how you keep your kids entertained at restaurants. So many parents just find an ipad to be a sedative that its basically a baby sitter, they know its bad but are still in need of a quick solution and then 3 years go by before revisiting it and they don't need it any more.

How do you handle that? Bored kid at a restaurant, possibly misbehaving.

theonething13• 4 years ago

since the temporary enclave won't be effective

So far it's been very effective. My kid has no interest in screens and likes to do real world stuff instead.

I realize I won't be able to shield her from them forever nor would that be a good idea. But these are literally formative years. From age 0 to 3, the human brain grows to 80% of its adult size, 90% by 5. What happens during these years have an outsized impact on their rest of their lives. Let's set them up for success as much as possible. That's why it's been zero screen from day one and as long as possible. When will I introduce screens? Don't know. Will cross that bridge when we get there. Right now, we're doing great with no screens.

How do you handle that? Bored kid at a restaurant, possibly misbehaving.

Answered here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34021771

gautamdivgi• 4 years ago

This made me smile. We did this with our elder daughter (now 12). It worked and then the pandemic came where they were given their chromebooks to take home. Luckily only YouTube was allowed. But still it did cause quite a bump in screen usage. Obviously the younger daughter caught on (now 8) and decided hey I can do YouTube as well.

Since last year as things have normalized, we basically restarted a bunch of their sports activities. Both kids had reading requirements from school and both seem to be in a spot where they will read before bed by themselves. The elder one reads quite a bit, probably around 1-1.5 hrs at night. The younger kid about 20-25 mins. They still do about 5-8 hrs of screen time each week. Still too much in my opinion but they also do a lot of stuff not on screen.

I still haven’t given them phones or devices. I myself have an iPhone-6 so not much runs on it either. But as the big kid starts being more independent I think a phone is going to be necessary.

My advice, if any, is keep non screen activities and person to person activity a priority. But keep in mind that her friends may get video games a lot earlier and they do form peers online which translate into peers in person.

dkqmduems2• 4 years ago

I wonder if too much reading is a problem. We end up reading quite a few books throughout the day with our 3yo because they demand it. Offering a screen is only a weak distraction.

theonething13• 4 years ago

Ours asks for a lot of reading time too. I don't consider this a problem and I'd rather have too much than too little. The way I see it, we're cultivating our children to fall in love with books. That will serve them well the rest of their lives.

Also, once they finally learn to read themselves, I predict they will love the independence of being able to pick up their favorite books to read whenever they want. And we'll love that too for multiple reasons. :)

wolongong942• 4 years ago

The advantage of books is you don't have an algo recommending you different things on every page. It's not uncommon for me to look up a 5 minute tutorial on YouTube to be stuck there for 1 hour+ due to the recommendations.

aerovistae3• 4 years ago

What do you make of this one's approach? Just wondering since you're on opposite ends of the spectrum. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34022113

theonething13• 4 years ago

If they are saying never pose limits at any age, I vehemently disagree. 0 - 3 are formative years of child development. In that time, the brain grows to 8% of its adult mass and 90% by 5. What happens during this time has outsized effects on a child for the rest of their lives.

By letting a baby/toddler have unrestricted access to screens, you are helping to wire neuronic paths in their brain to need that dopamine hit.

Perhaps there will be a time that I can trust my child to not overdose on screens, but now is definitely not the time.

Zooming out, I think there are fundamental parenting philosophy differences between me and the commenter. I believe the parent should take a very active role in shaping the character and habits of a child. This means restricting things I think are bad for them, discipline when they do wrong and this is the most important, convincing them without a doubt they you love them more than anything in the world. In this way, you give the child a solid core of security and confidence and shape their habits.

To me, the commenter seems to be advocating for letting the child make all the decisions or at least significant ones like screen time. I'm for letting children make increasingly important, age appropriate decisions as they mature and are ready. But when they are under my house, they need to understand two things, that I love them fiercely and I'm their authority figure.

imranq• 4 years ago

My approach is to demystify the addictive thing as much as possible.

Kid wants to play video games? Have them create their own video game before playing other video games

Addicted to TikTok? Have them create their own videos and channel before watching other peoples channels

Addicted to the internet? Have them create their own websites before having them see other people's websites

The foundations of addiction rely on the mind creating cycles of dependence on a single activity due to a lack of finding the same dopamine rush in other known activities. So if they understand what is going on behind the scenes that actually results in the dopamine rush, they can find healthier alternatives. They will do this automatically since dopamine with understanding = freedom

ge96• 4 years ago

Have them create their own video game before playing other video games

Brutal

barbazoo• 4 years ago

I'm not criticizing your approach at all I'm just wondering how you get from

The foundations of addiction rely on the mind creating cycles of dependence on a single activity due to a lack of finding the same dopamine rush in other known activities. So if they understand what is going on behind the scenes that actually results in the dopamine rush, they can find healthier alternatives.

to what you've come up with? How does creating your own video make them understand what is going on behind the scenes when watching a video and how that creates a dopamine rush? Absolutely, creating your own videos is much more satisfying but I don't see how that relates to better understanding when watching a Tiktok feed.

rr8882• 4 years ago

Realistically I've pretty much given up. The only thing is if we have school, organized events, sports - social interaction. Otherwise the (barely working) phone comes out - or the laptop which is required for all homework now. I'd love to do something but looking around the adults are just as addicted.

bcrosby95• 4 years ago

For our kids the big problem was youtube.

Give them a game on their tablet and they are quickly collaborating on it. Give them a show and they will go see what the other person is watching. After not too long (an hour or two) they are completely done and doing something else.

But youtube is different. They can sit alone, in a corner, slack jawed, for 8 hours per day, only watching youtube, as they respond to all questions with only a vague grunt.

annoyingnoob2• 4 years ago

Do not give them access to roblox, you won't even get a grunt.

agentwiggles2• 4 years ago

Youtube has been essentially banned in my house after seeing the effect it had on my kids. The problem, in short, was that Youtube continuously feeds them new content. Sadly - especially given the huge amount of actually great content on Youtube - everything that it wants to show my kids is absolutely dogshit garbage. A bunch of Gen Z kids with obviously wealthy families just acting like idiots. I couldn't stand it any more.

I am, in general, a fairly permissive and liberal-minded parent. I had to put my foot down and have just disabled the site on the devices they use.

It makes me sad because I know if they were directed to the right kinds of videos they could learn all kinds of things and be inspired by the creativity of the folks behind them. This is not what comes up in the feed and the content that they've become most interested in is the mental equivalent of eating off-brand Oreos for every meal. Hard pass.

mhss• 4 years ago

I largely agree, but I've not banned it. I just have explicitly told them they can only watch from the subscriptions we've curated. It requires monitoring of course, so they'll watch it on tv (Apple TV) when I'm present. My kids are young enough that they're never alone. Once they're not, I've been thinking if I can write a MITM proxy at home for youtube that somehow only allows content from explicit channels.

mrexroad2• 4 years ago

Several kids in my household. YouTube plays a vastly different role for each, which is frustrating.

Oldest goes down rabbit hole of topics of interest - benign useless filler stuff, e.g. mostly pro sports commentary, random things like Disney ride trivia, and other random pop-culture filler. If left unchecked, i wouldn’t be surprised if they spent 8+ hours on YouTube. If moderated, YouTube gives them a fair amount of stuff to talk and connect with others about in real life. Overall impact: neutral to slightly positive if moderated to <1h/day. Food/drink equivalent: Honey Mustard and Onion Pretzel pieces (a few are great, but then you can’t stop and you end up eating 1500 calories and everything tastes wrong for 24h)

Younger teen: will consume insane amounts of gaming videos, most of the creators border on toxic personalities. We’ve banned a number of channels for them, but they find other shitty personalities. I can’t stand the content they consume, but I chalk a fair bit of that to my ignorance about teen culture and mostly grit my teeth. Covid was the worst. I hate YouTube because of their content choices. However, it does provide a small basis of connection to their group of friends. [edit: I also stupidly made a deal that w/ straight A’s I won’t be overly restrictive, which they’ve upheld, sigh] Overall impact: toxic to the point where every month or two I’m convinced to ban YouTube across every device in the house. Food/drink equivalent: Natty Light that’s barely chilled.

Pre-teen: by choice, they spend ~3/4 of their YouTube time learning new skills or facts. Mostly learning specific techniques in the iPad app Procreate, acrylic painting (irl), a ton of educational videos about wildlife/animals they love, etc. But more significantly, their YouTube use has created the reflex to “search first” whenever facing a knowledge/skill gap, then ask for help. They’re the only reason i don’t straight up block YouTube at the network level, for all devices. Overall impact: very positive. Food/drink equivalent: natto and rice.

api4• 4 years ago

The YouTube algorithm seems to steer you toward absolute shit. Age doesn't matter. Try just following it as an adult and you will end up in the toilet pretty fast.

Aeolun5• 4 years ago

The problem, in short, was that Youtube continuously feeds them new content.

Does it? I feel like my son has been watching essentially the same 20-25 videos over and over again. Of course his youtube time is limited, but it doesn’t seem like it suggests anything but his three favorite channels.

bamboozled6• 4 years ago

The problem, in short, was that Youtube continuously feeds them new content.

This is a problem for me too (an adult), I'm getting stronger at turning it off, but it's poison.

tootie• 4 years ago

My kids do this and I mostly just let them. They do well in school, have friends, are physically healthy. I was the same with TV and games at their age and now I'm living the life. Internet addiction can be an outlet for other unhealthy behavior but I don't think it's a cause.

speg• 4 years ago

We just added YouTube to my son’s iPad. In addition to a daily time limit we also locked his account down so he can only see videos that we explicitly add to his account.

api4• 4 years ago

We banned YouTube for the same reason. It's honestly a bit terrifying how completely YouTube can entrance kids. You could probably kill a kid by sitting them in front of YouTube and they'd die of thirst or starvation.

The content is absolute shit too. The YouTube algorithm steers them toward these weird repetitive videos and obnoxious fast-chattering gamer channels. There's a lot of interesting and enriching stuff on YouTube but the algorithm never steers them toward it.

You might want to preemptively ban TikTok and Instagram too. I've been told by many parents they are absolute poison for teens. I've looked at them a bit and TikTok in particular is shockingly addictive even for adults. I was just checking it out and before I knew it I'd been scrolling for 45 minutes watching weird videos from randos. Banned it at the network level already just in case.

We have really created a monster here with this addictionware stuff. It's not great for adults but for kids it's really toxic.

theGnuMe7• 4 years ago

tiktok is worse.

qzx_pierri• 4 years ago

The solution to this problem is actively parenting your kids. Take them on hikes, start a hobby with them, bond, etc. Letting the internet babysit your kids is the precursor to internet addiction. If you put in the work, then you won't have to worry.

makeitdouble2• 4 years ago

This is an excelent answer, which makes me itch to push a little further.

I suppose OP (and you) are not "internet addicted", and I'm pretty sure it's not because someone is working hard to keep you from the internet, but because you have other things in your life that you enjoy or understand are critically needed.

Kids aren't that different. We might need to push them first so they discover new things and find what they like, but they'll definitely come back to you to go hiking if it they had a blast the last time.

I'm not sure it's really "put in the work", and I like a lot your "actively parenting" part. The crux is really to have fun with your kid, and if it's fun they'll do it again, and again, and again. And they also have a sense of responsibility, letting them fail and be remorseful when they didn't do their due and watched youtube instead is often a good enough strategy.

bamboozled6• 4 years ago

But what if your kids start to prefer to stay home on the internet rather than go hiking, or skiing or whatever.

So what do you do in this case?

hxugufjfjf3• 4 years ago

The kid also prefers eating chocolate over potatoes. That doesn't mean we just give up potatoes and let them have chocolate.

exabrial• 4 years ago

Well I'm browsing HN so.......

tejohnso• 4 years ago

We went from using YouTube as a babysitter to accepting that we have to reduce our personal time allotment and be more engaged with the child.

The television was removed from the living room wall and the only screen time is shared activity screen time with a parent on the weekends for an hour or so. Lots more board gaming, reading, talking, crafting, playing. Way more parental involvement required.

If there was some way to limit YouTube to specific channels and disable recommendations we might still allow it. Maybe you can do that with premium. In any case, we chose a household solution rather than trying to work in a technical solution.

grepfru_it• 4 years ago

Exact same here.

I was pretty good at policing the YouTube content, but one day I came in and found my wife without a care in the world while my child was mimicking horrible YouTube behavior. Turned it off and never looked back.

Now my friend with an 8 year old is telling me how YouTube returned to his life. I’m not ready for that and instead trying to build a device that will pause time

philsnow• 4 years ago

If there was some way to limit YouTube to specific channels and disable recommendations we might still allow it

I do exactly this by mirroring a list of channels to my NAS and serving it with Emby. It's not 100% "educational" material; there's Dude Perfect and alongside Physics Girl, Bob Ross, Primitive Technology, and Technology Connections.

(My ancient wish that Google+ had created personas/facets crops up once again: there's a fair number of creators whose channels have some gold but which I won't add to the mirror because they have a bunch of unrelated content that is far more marginal. Some creators set up multiple topic-focuses channels or playlists but it's not the common case.)

I don't have a content block for youtube.com and the kids can still technically get there, but they know I don't want them going there and they know why.

poutine• 4 years ago

My 6.5yo has just gotten access to an iPad to do some learn to read training through a specific app. No other apps permitted. Before this there was no access at all to iPads or computers and very limited TV time. We'll continue to slowly introduce tech with heavy guidance and restriction as she ages, but she'll be a lot less online than her peers seem to be. I don't really see this as a detriment.

nmfisher2• 4 years ago

Out of curiosity, which app?

chasd00• 4 years ago

i have a 13 and 11 year old. We keep them engaged as much as possible off screen in physical activities. They get plenty of screen time though and I try to do my best to steer them to at least useful content. There's lots of interesting content that children can learn from on youtube especially science and history. I watch with them and try to steer to as much productive content as i can but am not always 100% successful.

LAC-Tech3• 4 years ago

I have a 3 month old and this is something I am wondering about already, since I am definitely prone to YouTube binging - especially if I'm in a bad mood, tired etc.

I tell myself I need it for background music then before.I know it I'm binge watching comedy routines I've seen 10 times before.

makeitdouble2• 4 years ago

You made it far enough to have life stable enough to post on HN and have a 3 month kid, I'd assume you're not actually addicted to youtube in the clinical term.

Honestly if you're going well enough, your kid potentially mimicking you shouldn't be such an issue. There are some stuff to consider regarding language aquisition, fine motor skills etc. for really small kids, but them looking at youtube wont doom their life if you've covered the other bases.

If you feel it will become a real issue, the path of course would be to look at how you want your own life to be different, move in that direction and bring your kid along. I've had friends who quit their job and moved to another town to realign with how they wanted their life to be after they had their kid, so it can be an option.

thenerdhead• 4 years ago

I think our generation is a bit lucky as we're some of the first who experienced internet/technology addiction. Many of us still have challenges with it.

But that makes us more equipped to parent it. Moderation, appealing alternatives, technical prowess, modeling healthy habits, access in a public/supervised environment, etc.

I do wonder what the future will look like for parental controls and big tech. Especially in the USA.

shp0ngle• 4 years ago

I don’t know if I will.

I was a computer addicted kid since I was about 8, when parents bought me a computer in 1995. When faster internet came, in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I was on the internet nonstop. And later on social media - LiveJournal, Blogger, Flickr, YouTube, but also some local servers that people here won’t know.

I don’t think it hurt me that much? Now I am a developer and making more money than most of my friends from that time, that were not sitting all day on computer.

So… it would be kind of hypocritical from me to restrict my kids doing the same? I don’t know

My kids are still too young to understand computers though (1 and 3). So let’s see

aliqot• 4 years ago

This is a different internet than the one we had, is my own apprehension.

DefineOutside• 4 years ago

I've been addicted to the internet since 2010. I learned a lot and became a developer because of modding communities and general PC building. I've also wasted a lot of time on reddit and youtube. Can't say anything productive has come out of my time on the phone or consoles though.

It makes me wonder how the shift towards mobile and consoles will affect how useful internet addictions can be. I would have never become a developer if I remained a console or mobile gamer.

The communities that I was in are still around but I'm unsure whether young people will actually find them. Why learn how to mod games when you can scroll tiktok, browse reddit, and watch youtube for the entire day.

especially games, modern games aren't as supportive to modders than older games - it's more profitable to not provide modding tools and just to run any multiplayer servers officially with microtransactions.

xhrpost• 4 years ago

I feel like content and internet use was wildly different back then. I did the same thing in that timeframe with a similar result. But I was constantly constructive with what I did. Not because I was a workaholic, I was just really curious and interested in everything.

Linux? Cool let's install and play around for a while. How many fun logos can I make in GIMP for my cheesy geocities site? Oh half-life comes with a level builder, let's build some levels!

As time goes on, I end up exploring less and less and now just absorb media when I'm not working. And it's not even fun or satisfying, but the dopamine hit is easy. It could be just partially growing up and having real responsibility and a full time job, but I feel the content delivery bears some of the blame.

medvezhenok• 4 years ago

Indeed, the modern day web is closer to what TV was back in the late 1990s or early 2000s than the web of that era. Except more tailored to you, so probably more addicting than the television.

I'm not sure if you could re-create the early web experience. It might be possible with a VERY highly curated twitter feed, but it would still be challenging, as the medium doesn't promote the same type of long term engagement as the older style PhpBB forums did.

mercacona2• 4 years ago

You can’t compare writing blogs or early YouTube to current trends: short videos, addictive productions, irrelevant contents, etc.

My son has a friend who can watch YouTube and Tiktok for hours without supervision. When he comes home I freak out: he gets bored watching a movie, music videoclips are too long, and if you try to read a short story at bedtime he doesn’t even listen to you.

It’s not about using computers and participating in online communities but undermining their attention, vocabulary, etc.

theGnuMe7• 4 years ago

How is your own attention span? I've watched old cartoon movies from the 80s and find them dull and boring but I remember them being my favorite at the time.

I also have this other observation. If you really get into classical music, jazz and to some extent blues/bluegrass... modern pop songs just sound like crap and boring.

m463• 4 years ago

I think things have become MUCH more addictive as monetization and engagement have evolved.

In the your era there just weren't the sort of a/b tested hooks to get you in, behavioral techniques to keep you engaged and dark patterns to prevent you from leaving.

gotta watch out for your kids. Get them outside, with fresh air and exercise.

dahdum• 4 years ago

Similar background here. I’ve been Very Online for 25+ years and have made a pretty good life for myself as a result.

However, the modern internet and current trend is much more consumption based and non-technical than it used to be. Toxic content, communities, and celebrities were always around (and always will be) but with so much more overall volume you can easily become encased in a bubble of negativity and hate.

I would curate and limit access for children into their teenage years, say 14 or 15. After that I’d just want to know what they’re generally up to so I could step in if, for instance, I had a son who started following Andrew Tate.

limbicsystem• 4 years ago

I wonder if we should tolerate hypocrisy a little more? I always liked this section from "the diamond age" https://www.likevillepodcast.com/articles/2020/8/14/our-obse...

rr8882• 4 years ago

I was addicted to computers when I found them in middle school. My parents banned me and I didn't follow my passion at university. Now I'm a programmer with above average social skills and below average computer skills. Not sure it was the right decision.

aleksiy123• 4 years ago

I largely agree with you.

Its interesting to see what I believe to be a generational divide in these comments.

I'm 28. My parents limited my internet and gaming time when I was younger and it mostly just caused resentment and anger at what I believed to be their controlling behaviour. I couldn't wait to move out. When I did move out in University the freedom I spent too much time on the things I wasn't allowed to do before and my grades suffered for it.

I think a lot of comments here have very draconian policies that aren't going to work out the way the parents intended it. I think the harder and more desirable way is to somehow teach them to manage their own time but I have no idea how.

clickitongue• 4 years ago

My life path, including our ages +/- a year, is exactly what the person you're responding to described. I think the "screens are demons" approach to the screens of the 90s would indeed have been overkill and even counterproductive. However, I think (many/most of) the screens of today are nothing like back then.

A while back I saw a ~5 year old watch the entirety of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5dUzc476Ws (pick any random 10 seconds to get the idea)

My spouse and I discussed it later in private, and we were both horrified. In the moment we had both had visceral little gasp reactions to how bad it was. We were until then only aware of a problem to the extent of "my kids are staring at screens all day", which does of course sound like 90s parents. The real problem is that some significant portion of those screens are now putting out absolutely horrifying cognition poison.

theGnuMe7• 4 years ago

This is my philosophy and I had the same experience. We also had cable tv that I sat in front of reliably for a long time. I remember duck tales, saved by the bell etc..

Where I went to college though did not have internet access in the dorms! That was a mistake. There were schools I could have attended that did. I did spend a lot of time in the computer lab but I think I would have benefited from a direct link.

nmfisher2• 4 years ago

We are roughly the same age, and I firmly believe the internet we grew up with is not the internet we have today. I don’t think you can use our childhood as a reference point for how to raise kids nowadays.

bamboozled6• 4 years ago

Strongly agree, the internet I grew up with taught me how to code, run my own networks, how to build websites and provision servers without being a constant distraction. That's the internet that gave me my career.

Also I was able to books without poisonous addictive social media apps and YouTube distracting me at every instance. I doubt I've really learned much or anything from social media. In fact I'd say it's highly one sided relationship where I'm the loser.

kraf4• 4 years ago

I'm absolutely convinced that this is not the same internet now and that kids have to deal with a lot more challenges. Everything is actively built to be addictive and to fragment your attention. There are big players who don't want you off the internet. The content itself has also changed and there is a lot more false information that is indistinguishable from the "good"

You can't compare your own childhood to this, I don't think we even get it. You have to set limits both on time and content.

deafpolygon• 4 years ago

Keep them offline.

tboyd472• 4 years ago

I've been fighting this battle for years and I still fight it every day with my kids.

First, you MUST set limits on everything addictive to children in your house including the internet. Limit the content they can access and the place and time they can use it. You can adjust the limits, but never remove them.

Second, if they're old enough, explain the concept of addiction to them. Here is a perfect video to do that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUngLgGRJpo A child will understand exactly what addiction means after watching this video.

Third, show them that you also have limits on your own tech usage. They might not be the same limits you put on them, but you have limits. They will understand this way that limits are not something they can "grow out of" and are part of being an adult.

Last, when they do break the rules, don't shame them for it and don't give them approval for it either. Make it clear that you still love them and the rules are still in place.

Good luck.

aerovistae3• 4 years ago

What do you make of this one's approach? Just wondering since you're on opposite ends of the spectrum. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34022113

tboyd472• 4 years ago

I don't see it that way. Both of our approaches are based on education but in different formats. His approach may be valid for his kids. I'm just sharing what works for my family.

From my perspective, children watch what you do more than what you say. If you tell them the internet is dangerous but then leave it wide open, you're sending mixed messages to them and they're not going to take your advice seriously.

The point is not to seal them off in a bubble. I talk about all kinds of hard realities with my kids. And they're exposed to hard realities when I'm not there. The point is that your actions have to match your statements.

Probably dozens of times, maybe hundreds, we have had "the talk" about how there's a lot of weird shit in the world, internet included, and it's better to know about that stuff and how to deal with it than to create a temporary secure enclave at home where it doesn't exist.

Hundreds of times? That sounds terribly embarrassing, doesn't it?

And why wouldn't I want my home to be a sanctuary from the weird shit out there? Isn't the point of a home a place you can kick off your shoes and relax?

They've fallen thousands of times, we've picked them up thousands of times, and now they're pretty good at not falling.

Thousands??? He has to accept the possibility that they've just gotten better at hiding their vices. That's what teenagers are good at.

This kind of supports my assumption that his kids aren't taking his rules OR his advice seriously.

nkohari3• 4 years ago

You're going to get a lot of skewed results here, because a lot of parents aren't going to feel comfortable telling the truth: that almost all parents allow a reasonable amount of screen time to their kids, even if they know it's not the healthiest thing for them.

Personally, we have a four year old and an almost-two year old, and they're watching a Leapfrog show on the TV as we speak. We limit their access to screens, but realistically there are times when they're really useful.

christkv2• 4 years ago

We have no online games and no YouTube as base rules. We pick games that have some meaningful interaction to them. Games like Minecraft, Jurassic Park Evolution 2, Cities Skyline, old Sierra games, puzzle games. It's time boxed and only after responsibilities are taken care of like homework and helping out. I prefer they game over watching tv passively.

I am considering getting rid of consoles and just getting them steam decks instead as their first computers and then do some modding with them.

dudul• 4 years ago

I just don't let them use screens. I have a 5 and a 7 years old. To them a phone is used to call people, a computer is what Dad uses to work, a TV is used 30 minutes a week to watch something as a family and they don't know what a tablet is.

They've never used an "app".

They have books, blocks, Legos, dolls, coloring pages, and a ton of random trinkets to play creatively. It probably requires being more hands on than when you can use the TV set as a babysitter, but it's well worth it so far.

qup2• 4 years ago

This is the way. They don't know what they're missing.

fullshark2• 4 years ago

Every so often I see a post like this and think about the Bridge on the River Kwai.

hxugufjfjf3• 4 years ago

Excellent movie, but how the hell is it relevant to this?

fullshark2• 4 years ago

Engineers obsessed with craftsmanship ignoring its purpose

vz82• 4 years ago

We changed DNS for all devices to use OpenDNS familyshield [0] for starters. It's a passive way to throttle some of the worst of the worst out there.

Of course setting some limits on how much / how often helps a bit, and frank discussions about what too much of an addictive thing does to you.

Our youngest is developmentally delayed and will absolutely ignore any guidelines and follow the path of least resistance / most enticement, so their bedroom connection runs through a proxy running Squid [1] where I've whitelisted school and certain entertainment (that took a bit of time running Telerik Fiddler[2] to gather the many domains necessary for the whitelist)

Spotify was a bit of a problem, again with our youngest who went straight for the podcasts with the most adult content, which Spotify gleefully recommended the first moment we turned the service on. Could never find a way to turn podcasts off - never wanted them.

We run our own Emby[3] server that everyone has access to with curated music tv and movies (and also have the usual streaming video services, but those are reserved for common areas).

Looked at other options like walled garden family services (e.g. Amazon Kindle Fires with subscription), but there seems to only be content ranging up to ~12 year old tastes.

[0] https://support.opendns.com/hc/en-us/articles/228006487-Fami... [1] http://www.squid-cache.org/ [2] https://www.telerik.com/fiddler [3] https://emby.media/

gattanimell52• 4 years ago

i hope some of your childrens manages to bypass family filters and starts his passion for the magical world of cybersecurity this way

hxugufjfjf3• 4 years ago

That is my rule. Its better to ask for forgiveness than permission. So if you can hack it you can hack it without getting caught, its all yours.

vz82• 4 years ago

One of them knows how but plays along. Cicada 3301 here we come.

sys32768• 4 years ago

My ex taught in several schools in a fairly rural area and always praised the attention spans of the Hutterite children which seemed almost remarkable in comparison to the regular tweens who had smart phones.

fred967• 4 years ago

TV, not before 3 years. The personal console, not before 6 years. Internet, after 9 years. Social networks, after 12 years.

givemeethekeys• 4 years ago

Think of any bans and constraints as a loaded spring. Unless they have something that they enjoy / rewarded for / need to do with their time, you'll just frustrate them. They'll do the alcohol, drugs, TV, internet all behind your back. Or maybe they'll binge on it after they leave your house.

Instead, maybe introduce them to alternatives that are worth being addicted to. And, lead by example. Try to find something that you and they would enjoy doing together.

qup2• 4 years ago

No offense, but I think this is mostly true for uninvolved strict parents (I had one).

I think keeping kids active while denying certain activities is really normal and doesn't result in rebellion when done right.

thirdreplicator• 4 years ago

I have been experimenting with different cell phone policies over the past few years with my kids and here is what we settled on.

At our house, we have 6 children ranging in ages from 7-12 (3 of them are mine). No cell phones allowed Mon-Fri, but on Saturday and Sunday, they can have their phones from 2pm-9pm. We sleep at 9pm everyday. Sometimes during the week I'll let them watch a movie. Also, if they want to use their phone for learning something new like oragami, a piano tune or how to draw, then I let them use it for an hour or however long they need it as long as they are responsible.

The result is lots of imaginative play time like fashion shows, disco parties and pretend school. There is a lot of time for studying and playing instruments. All the kids were "A" students this last quarter.

RGamma• 4 years ago

Now consider the effects reported here on emotionally helpless/immature children and realise that adults fall victim to the same effects but express them differently.

Take the collective entertainment media engagement numbers and the fact that adults are no longer constrained by supervision in this regard and extrapolate the impact on hundreds of millions of adults times ~10 years for many billion experience-days under the influence of SM engagement and you'll get the perfect description of modern societal ills.

yumraj2• 4 years ago

One of the best things you can do is implement a strict no FB, Instagram, tiktok, snapchat .. future social media policy.

Secondly, stop using those services yourself and take every opportunity to tell them how much crap they are and how they should not be used.

They will listen to you since you yourself are not using them. If you use them and tell them not to, of course it's not going to work.

Once social media is out of the picture, you've taken care of the worst crap. Rest is incremental and you can build on the above.

Use pihole, other DNS filtering services to help filter other services.

api4• 4 years ago

You forgot YouTube. Its addictiveness to children is terrifying. But yeah, I agree. A pi-hole is essential.

yumraj2• 4 years ago

I fully agree, but You Tube is a weird one for two reasons:

1) for some of reason, blocking YT is not working on network. I need to figure it out. This problem could be limited to me.

2) YT is used by various educational sites to just w videos. So, if I block YT, they stop working. Note: I’m not referring to visiting YouTube.com directly, but embedded videos in other sites. So, this makes it hard to block YT.

What I have done instead is not installed the YouTube app on the TV and settop box. This has somewhat controlled YT use, but not fully unfortunately.

numpad0• 4 years ago

I think what isn’t said a lot is how to make better behaviors more attractive - playing with friends, tackling on projects, pursuing professional carriers and making positive impacts to the world - than indulgence in slot machines.

One of quality differences that separate good social behaviors and addictions is that the latter is boring. I personally couldn’t get hooked with TikTok, not for fears of addiction but because it wasn’t much rewarding to me. If someone is stuck repeating actions lacking in diversity or generally boring things, even if it seemed stimulating on surface, maybe there could be some other reasons than that the machine’s just too toxic.

This isn’t to say that parents “failing” to save kids have to feel any sense of guilt or responsibility - addictions are real - but it does seem to me that a lot of internet addicted self-taught flamewars expert people (bad bad thing) have episodes with picky, overly interfering, in-satisfiable, jealousy, or sometimes downright insane parents.

Maybe that plays a role in addiction, maybe having happy and stable parents help in kids growing better.

(I wish I couldn’t recall my then-parent-ish holding chef’s knife at 5 years old me with the door to my back)

sowbug8• 4 years ago

Parent of three ranging from tween to college age.

We have never had limits on anything. Screen time/content unrestricted. Probably dozens of times, maybe hundreds, we have had "the talk" about how there's a lot of weird shit in the world, internet included, and it's better to know about that stuff and how to deal with it than to create a temporary secure enclave at home where it doesn't exist.

We especially didn't want to pawn off our responsibility as parents onto their future 18-year-old college-bound selves to learn how to deal with excesses. Since the moment they could point, they've been given the opportunity to make mistakes with excess. They've fallen thousands of times, we've picked them up thousands of times, and now they're pretty good at not falling.

You can guess that I love CI/CD, stable trunk, etc., in my day job. My attitude as an engineer/parent is you'll never make bugs/threats go away. So make sure you and your team/family are experts at dealing with them while they're fresh and small.

_mme• 4 years ago

Amazing attitude.

The mother of my kid and I are separated. I wanted to restrict content/screen time, but she gave him unrestricted access to his iPhone and now I feel it can't be undone. He's 13.

I'm mostly worried about his attention span, especially when I watch him use his phone. But then again, maybe this is just a different generation and I must understand that his way of using the internet is different from mine.

Would you share a story of falling/picking them up?

Aeolun5• 4 years ago

I think (barring excesses) they’ll generally be fine regardless of the way the parent raises them. It’s mostly about me feeling good about the way I’m raising my kids.

sowbug8• 4 years ago

My wife and I divorced last year. Fortunately, she and I have always agreed on this parenting philosophy for our kids. Unfortunately, that means I can't totally relate to the specific tension you're having, other than to guess that it must be very hard that the two of you disagree on something so intermingled with today's parent-child relationship.

A screen is a great way to amuse a kid while you regain your sanity after a rough day. But so is a playdate with another kid, or a sleepover if they're older. And if your kid went on a playdate or a sleepover, wouldn't you ask how it went? Wouldn't you talk to the other parent(s) about how it went? Wouldn't it be weird if you didn't ever talk about that sleepover? Why should an iPhone be any different?

My point is that a screen isn't a pause button on your parent-child relationship. It's an experience that the kid goes through, separately from you, and it's your duty as a parent to get back in sync again afterward. Sorry to use your kid's mom as a pointed subject here, but it makes all the difference whether she sees the iPhone as an extra parenting responsibility, or a substitute for some of hers. In our case, we didn't demand a full accounting of every one of our kids' clicks. But occasional conversations were expected. (And pro tip for separated parents, these kinds of conversations can also happen... over the phone! On SMS!)

Stories to share... well, I won't get too specific because they're kids and all that, but briefly...

One: the kids all have small savings accounts with even smaller allowances. Twice they've gotten bamboozled by online gaming sites (similar to Club Penguin) into putting in their debit-card number to buy a virtual trinket that then turns into a $expensive/month subscription. Both times they noticed they were suddenly overdrawn, and came to me asking for help. If those payments were tuition in life experience, we got good value for it, because my kids today are pretty good at reading the fine print. And we now have a family legend/parable of Kid #2 buying the $1 powerup that cost him all his savings.

Two: Call of Duty during the pandemic. Self-regulation issues surfaced, and grades slipped. We talked about it and came up with a homework-before-gaming-each-night rule. We (the parents) didn't enforce the rule; that was the kids' job. Grades came back slowly, but the bleeding stopped almost immediately.

Honestly, I sat here for a while trying to think of a zinger of a third story, but most are the same -- the kid walking up to me with a screen in hand, showing me a site or an app, and asking "Dad, is this legit?" and oh god no it isn't and I'm so glad they felt OK asking me about it. I think that's actually the common thread with all these stories: we've been reasonably successful keeping the lines of communication open about their online lives, giving us the opportunity to parent through the teachable moments, rather than preemptively shaming them into dealing with it alone. My kids aren't perfect, but I'm satisfied with how they're prepared for the world, in all its gory detail.

Best of luck with your parenting! If you do it right, your kids will grant you lifetime tenure!

europeanguy4• 4 years ago

Don't listen to him, he's not answering the question that was answered.

I'm sorry for your difficult situation. Phones killing attention span is real.

Shared4042• 4 years ago

We especially didn't want to pawn off our responsibility as parents onto their future 18-year-old college-bound selves to learn how to deal with excesses.

This is an important point. There's a reason that it's well known on any given college campus that the wildest people are the ones with the strictest parents.

To anyone reading this - guide your kids, don't try to lock them down. Obviously what degree of freedom:restriction will be dependent on the kid in question, but be guided by the point above. I don't want to know where I would be right now if I didn't have friends who screwed up their life first and didn't choose to use them as a warning.

E: Added last sentence

ericmcer• 4 years ago

Being able to make mistakes is important for everyone, it is crazy not to let kids do it when they have no responsibilities. Sometimes you can't move on mentally until you have failed at something, I know people who dreamed of van life for years, finally pulled the trigger and moved into a van, hated it and moved on. It was totally worth it though, who knows what kind of ennui untested dreams will manifest later in life.

edgefield2• 4 years ago

We’re in a similar boat and have never set limits. Our two kids have learned to self moderate. They both like technology but get bored after a period of time and move on to other activities. We also encourage other activities with cub scouts, play dates, gymnastics, swim lessons and of course occasionally have to be strict with prioritizing homework. I give my partner credit for facilitating most of this. Maybe we’re lucky or maybe setting limits oddly fosters addiction?

TaupeRanger• 4 years ago

For every one of these anecdotes there's another where the kid got unrestricted access and is now incapable of going anywhere or doing anything without having their tablet with them, and is chronically addicted to the screen at nearly every waking moment, to their extreme detriment in school and social encounters. I have a family member like this.

sowbug8• 4 years ago

Yes, the forbidden-fruit effect might grease the skids toward addiction.

You and I, as parents, are both fortunate that our respective children received the gift of constant attention. I fully admit that this experience-everything attitude works a lot better when you're actually there to provide choices, knowledge, feedback, etc. Two working parents who hardly see their kids during the week would have a different perspective.

prpl• 4 years ago

My kids self-moderated before they started playing Roblox and Fortnite.

Before that, we had no limits. After that, self moderation was lost. They would play forever and turn into monsters. The then-7 year old would pee in his pants and keep playing.

temporary225• 4 years ago

I never got limits but I got quite addicted to the internet. In my case it was caused by other factors (depression), but I wouldn't discount the possibility in general.

I would set the limit at "you have to do something other than school and tv/internet/gaming in your day, on most days."

kapildev2• 4 years ago

I am an adult and while I was a child, our father turned off TV and cable access. He connected internet for a while but later disconnected that down as well. Needless to say, now I am older, it's very hard for me to moderate my film-viewing and internet-using habits. And I have always been wondering, was it because I wasnt allowed to moderate myself when I was little that I cant rid myself addiction?

Nowadays, the only thing that works for me is to print what I want to read, turn off phone and computer, restrict internet access by turning off router, putting the router in hardest to reach places and lay down to read.

adastra222• 4 years ago

Nowadays, the only thing that works for me is to turn off mobile and computer

See but I don't think you'd be able to do that if you hadn't the experience of living without. Like you literally wouldn't even consider it an option.

Also you may be somewhere on the ADD spectrum. Worth looking into if this becomes a problem for you.

yawboakye• 4 years ago

Grew up without TV at home. In fact, no electricity at home until mid-teens. Still can’t watch TV to this day. My kind of fun was always out there with kids from the neighborhood running around, kicking a ball, getting tired and getting dirty in the process. As an adult it has been replaced with team sports and physical activities. I want the same experience for my kids. Essentially have fun programs that require them engage in an active way: play music instruments, play a couple of sports, paint, spend a lot of time outdoors.

sowbug8• 4 years ago

You don't need to be so hard on yourself. You clearly like to read enough to make it happen. Many kids these days will never voluntarily read a book for the rest of their lives.

bamboozled6• 4 years ago

Had unlimited access to TV and Internet, pretty addicted still too.

I think it's better if we just admit that these systems are built to be addictive instead of pretending we can just "zen" ourselves away from it.

Realistically, like a lot of addictive things, it would be better off if I nevers started.

majani• 4 years ago

Or maybe your father had an addictive personality that he had dealt with in the past before having you, and he wanted to nip it in the bud in case he had passed it down to you (yes, addictive personality is heritable)

temporary225• 4 years ago

I got the opposite, unlimited access while being a kid and difficulty moderating it now.

All of regulations and moderation go to shit the moment one (as an adult) realizes that there is no "real consequence" for unlimited use. The "real consequence" is only what one puts one's mind to be.

(Losing job because of internet addiction? Nvm, find a different one. Getting overweight? It's a silent killer and the effects are years away, plus you get to shop for new clothes. )

flippinburgers2• 4 years ago

I had no moderation by parents and I struggled my entire life to moderate my internet/video game addictions. Largely driven by depression and hating social interaction perhaps but still very much a problem that has plagued me my entire life.

nvln• 4 years ago

This! Parenting is not a "Here is the rule, here is the consequence" job. Raising responsible humans requires, well, giving them responsibility, the opportunity for soft failures to learn from and having those awkward long talks and figuring out how to set healthy boundaries.

The other part of the equation: The internet is an important aspect of the current generation's identity and culture. What seems like addiction to us could very well be our children's identity, lifestyle. The comparison to TVs is flawed because TV is not social. The unhealthy aspects have to be spoken about in the same vein as drinking and drugs, but any kind of limit-setting that doesn't acknowledge this might push children away from conversation.

There is an hilarious episode of Everybody Loves Raymond that goes into this with refreshing honesty.

baron8162• 4 years ago

giving them responsibility

I am not a parent, so maybe don't listen to me, but if I were (especially to boys), I would try to deeply instill a value of responsibility into them.

Boys are naturally going to have a higher tolerance for risk, and that can be a very good thing, but it needs to be directed and they need to learn to differentiate good risks from bad ones.

But more generally, building up an identity of being responsible and showing what is expected of them as a child, family member, citizen, human being, etc. will hopefully mean they will do what needs to get done when it needs to be done. Try to get them to ask themselves "what's the responsible thing to do here" and "why is that the responsible thing to do".

idk, maybe that's super obvious. Sorry for posting my naive opinion.

europeanguy4• 4 years ago

Thanks for sharing.

I don't doubt that it worked for you, but I wonder whether this is a good approach.

You say you never had limits on anything. Say one of your kids tells you he wants to trying heroin a bit. Would you let him?

Now, obviously mobile phones aren't as addictive as heroin and the consequences of failing to control yourself aren't as bad either, but they're still extremely addictive. They're addictive enough that _most people_ struggle to control their impulse to take their phone out every time there's even 10 seconds of downtime. I was at a playground a couple of days ago, and literally every parent there other than me was scrolling their phone while their kids where playing.

Probably dozens of times, maybe hundreds, we have had "the talk" about how there's a lot of weird shit in the world

Another observation is that you seem to be responding to the question of "how do you deal with your kids being exposed to nasty stuff out there", where the question is really about addiction.

So let me ask you explicitly: When there's a bit of downtime, do your kids reach for the phone? Follow up question: how many hours a day do you estimate they spend staring at their phone?

I'm skeptical that your approach is a good one because these days people who aren't addicted to mindlessly scrolling their phone are the exception rather than the rule.

EDIT: To add some more...

A great example of a victim is my girlfriend. Her parents also didn't prohibit much from her. They've had many "talks" with her too about how there's good things and bad things in the world. But guess what, phones didn't exist when she was a kid so her parents didn't tell her to be careful with phones. She slowly started using more and more. Nowadays she spends 2-3 hours a day in between dinner and bed scrolling her phone. When I point this out to her she says "I'm tired, I just wanna relax". I have the firm conviction that telling a child "this is dangerous stuff, you'll get addicted, do NOT play on this" will reduce the probability of this happening later in life, because you might "catch yourself" using too much earlier in the process.

sowbug8• 4 years ago

If my kid asked me about heroin, he'd be asking for advice, not permission. Kids do much more than their parents know about; they always have, they always will. Imagine if your kid came to you asking for advice, and you responded as if you were asked for permission.

| "Dad, what do you think about heroin?"

| "If you go near that stuff, you'll be grounded for a month."

| "Thanks, Dad." (proceeds to try heroin)

In the time I typed this, probably 1,000 kids around the world had the very same conversation with a parent about various difficult subjects including drug use. That's 1,000 missed opportunities for parents to have real conversations with their children.

I have a few thoughts about the rest of your comment.

First, you're defining "addiction" very broadly. It's hard to reconcile why your girlfriend is a "victim," but "literally every parent" on the playground was doing the same thing. At a certain point, behaviors become norms. If phones didn't exist, what would those parents on the playground be doing instead? Probably not heroin, but probably not work that society highly values, either. And nothing so extreme that it's my business to judge them.

Second, it's very difficult to address your "the question is really about addiction" point without conceding a false premise. My comment wasn't about how I deal with it; it was about how to prepare my children to deal with it. Which absolutely is about addiction, or rather about avoiding addiction. (To be clear, I'm talking about addiction in the classic sense that causes a person to make destructive life choices to feed their addiction, and absolutely not about the "addiction" that declares that there is a problem with a parent's manner of sitting on a bench on a sunny day in a park.)

If OP were asking how to stop mobile-phone usage, I'd have ignored the post entirely, because in my opinion that's a misguided goal. OP asked "do you take any precautions to help your children avoid falling prey to [internet addiction]?" That's a very different question. And my answer was to teach my children not to become prey.

bamboozled6• 4 years ago

Hm, not sure about this, while I understand what you're saying, aren't you giving your kids the equivalent of mental heroin when giving them unfettered access to Youtube?

I mean you can say what you want about it to them, I'm still not sure I'd give my kids unlimited access to junk and hope they're cool to just be ok with it?

I had zero restrictions on my internet acess growing up, I was also told about excesses and I still blow way too much time on HN, YouTube and Instagram, so I'm not sure it really works to just have the talk?

ly3xqhl8g92• 4 years ago

Given the extreme mimetic learning in children, it is probably important if the child sees you stopping a process they guess/know you are enjoying. The confusion which leads from questioning the reinforcement can be a source of wisdom. If the child sees you, the parent, put down the device after a few minutes, not gorging on food, sleep, and so on, having self moderation, they are more probably to also develop it.

The question then becomes how do you develop self moderation, which has been a question for at least the last 2,400 years with the socratic "how to achieve a good life" (by having an inner life) and the various "religions of the book" which are a proxy to this question, sprinkling in with a forklift supernatural beliefs (the good life is the one devoted to the God superclass, which has private, unknown methods to solve the confusion of reinforcement).

Coming to think of it, it is probably important if the child does not see you as a God superclass: they will try to rely on themselves (although it is a hard game to balance, not to be too traumatic), and they will be less inclined to rebel against you, achieving both their own personhood, but also being set up to follow your example.

temporary225• 4 years ago

"the talk" given to me was mostly focused on drugs, gambling addiction and really hardcore internet addictions (as in not being able to do anything else). Nobody talked to me about mild ones, or the slow creep that an internet addiction can have.

As a consequence I steered clear of all physical addiction and never gambled, but spent countless hours on the net without it creating a problem, until years later (earlier this year) where it all compounded into a nice pile of "not being able to do much beside scrolling social media".

mylasttour• 4 years ago

Quite sad to see this hands-off approach being praised. I was raised in this kind of environment, along with most others I know, and that's how we all got to see our first beheading, suicide, or some grotesque sexual content before we even hit 12. It's not something you seek as a kid, but you get presented with it.

Sure, this would be considered the "excess", but I'm not sure if it's the kind that children should be made to deal with at such an age in such high volumes.

matthewaveryusa• 4 years ago

The lack of public beheadings is more of an exception of the last century than the norm. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but I don't think it really affects children all that much. rotten/liveleak certainly didn't make me any different -- if anything it was beneficial to understand that there's a violent world out there.

kraf4• 4 years ago

Sorry to be so blunt but are you advocating for letting developing minds get addicted? I hear expert after expert talking about the negative effects of those types of behavior and content. When you say they crashed a thousand times, what does that mean? Months without sleep, streaks of failure in school? I'm curious if moderation means that they are now using devices less than 7 hours a day which seems to be the average.

Wouldn't the same logic apply to drugs?

Me and my friends were over 20 years old when social media arrived and it still changed a few of them for the worse. It's a source of suffering for them and it's plain as day from the outside.

I'd advocate for letting them grow up as much as possible before having to deal with that crap while constantly discussing the dangers and negative incentives of the platforms as well as many content producers.

Kranar2• 4 years ago

Can you cite those experts? I am genuinely asking because the research I've seen is mostly mixed and inconclusive but does lean more towards what OP is saying.

There are tons of articles that say screen time is bad, social media is bad, etc etc... and I suppose you can always find some expert to support those claims, but in terms of actual scientific research, actual experiments, the fear of social media and Internet addiction in general has no more basis today than addiction to TV or video games or even music had in the past, and yes, "experts" in the past went after music as well claiming that it corrupted young kids minds.

colechristensen• 4 years ago

The most repressed / “protected” people I’ve known have also had the biggest trouble dealing with the real world when those limitations were lifted.

jstrong• 4 years ago

you wouldn't let a three-year-old walk across a busy street by himself. the reason why is, he's not capable of handling that yet. same for lots of other things, too.

comfypotato• 4 years ago

As a friendly counterpoint, my parents limited the time that I watched TV when I was young (mostly pre-ubiquitous-internet, so it probably implies limiting internet time somewhat). I’m just sharing my experience.

I got to pick what I watched and when; I just got 30 minutes or an hour a day. I mostly tried to catch the latest Dragon Ball Z episode.

The general strictness of my parents lead to severe rebellion, and that got me into all sorts of trouble (so it definitely wasn’t all a good thing). Now that I’ve matured a bit, I enjoy not having much of a TV habit (I find that I self-titrate internet content in a healthy way as well). I’m actually pretty grateful for the limits.

I don’t have kids, and I don’t know what I would do regarding this posted question, but I thought that I would share that I have very positive feelings concerning my parents’ decision to impose a limit on TV consumption time. I filled the rest of my time reading books, and that’s a very fulfilling time-sink to this day.

Also relevant: I think a lot of the streaming-video content available today (Netflix and others) has a lot more intrinsic value than most of the TV content when I was young. There are so many brilliant writers producing theses shows nowadays that my parents’ sentiment may not really apply to all the content. Even something like Cocomelon (we put it on in social settings if someone’s got their kids with them) is just better than Rugrats as far as providing entertaining wholesome/halfway-informative content.

mudrockbestgirl• 4 years ago

Now that I’ve matured a bit, I enjoy not having much of a TV habit

I don't think you can draw the conclusion that this is because of your childhood restrictions. I have not watched TV in ~10 years, and most of my friends don't have a TV, but I have never had any restrictions. I had the TV on in the background for 8+ hours a day when I was a kid. I don't think there is any correlation at all.

dnissley• 4 years ago

I have no idea exactly what cocomelon is like, but just from googling around it seems like the video equivalent of a playground where everything is padded and it's almost impossible to hurt oneself in the smallest way. There is no mischief in the thing. No kids getting into things they shouldn't. No adventure. No danger. No thinking. No agency. Just antiseptic, ostensibly "educational", 100% wholesome content.

Of course, it also seems to be for much younger children than something like Rugrats, so maybe that's where this reaction of mine is coming from.

darthrupert• 4 years ago

Counterpoint: I am a parent of five kids, with one of them just turning adult. The oldest two had unlimited access to the net and personal laptop and phone.

I think this contributed greatly to them having all kinds of mental problems. My other children will not have personal devices, but rather dumb phones and a family computer they can use that is in a central place in the house. Until they turn 16.

Tongue in cheek: Based on my experience I now think that giving children free access to the net is roughly as good parenting as providing them a sack of cocaine would be.

sowbug8• 4 years ago

That's a respectable sample size! :) I hope your older kids still have a strong conduit of communication with you, as you sound like a thoughtful and constructively self-critical person.

My three kids are each unique in different ways, which confounds any attempt to draw predictive conclusions about one parenting style vs another. I can only say what I have done as a parent, and I was happy elsewhere in this thread to share anecdotal mistakes the kids have made along the way. But claiming credit for any positive outcomes would be "results-oriented thinking," as professional poker players warn.

For what it's worth, I haven't been on social media in any meaningful way for probably 10 years. Even my rare tweeting is likely to end given that the guy running that company has spectacularly lost his marbles. My ex-wife and wife are similar. We have no dogma against social media; it's just not very interesting. I work hard at my tech job, but I still make dinner every night for my family. None of this is really for my family or kids in any altruistic sense; it's just how I like to live my life. It's a lot easier to spout a certain parenting philosophy when your own life, and those of your partner(s), match. (I hope this isn't coming off as horribly judgmental; I'm merely admitting that if I had a "do as I say, not as I do" attitude, I'm sure my experience would be a lot rougher.)

gwn7• 4 years ago

The internet is fucking interesting and it is very hard to keep people of any age from it.

But some people need it more than the others.

In my opinion the lonelier and/or unhealthier and/or poorer and/or less purposeful and/or more physically / mentally trapped somebody is; the likelier for them to be addicted to the internet (or to other things that can give them a sense of an escape from their reality, or just hope.)

I think before thinking about anything else you should think about what better can you do for your child regarding those matters.

epolanski• 4 years ago

My SO has a huge endless scroll/swipe addiction.

She can spend days on IG reels. I don't know what to do.

I attempted to delete all my socials but LinkedIn to set a healthy example but it's for nothing.

WarOnPrivacy2• 4 years ago

We had the same rules for kids and adults. Screens in common area facing out. No ads.

None of the five ever asked for a phone.

tiffanyh• 4 years ago

How do you protect adults from internet addiction, like relentlessly checking HN :)

yesenadam• 4 years ago

The noprocrast setting can be very helpful. e.g. for a month, set it to boot you off for 12 hours after you've been here 30 minutes.

eikenberry• 4 years ago

You help them use it and help them when they stumble. Addiction is mostly a genetic thing that you won't be able to do much to circumvent but if it runs in your family, so my best advice is to teach them moderation in all things early and often.

iandanforth• 4 years ago

Hi there! It's important to use the word 'addiction' carefully. There's a difference between high-engagement and addiction. Something can be highly engaging without having negative consequences. You can spend 100 hours a week doing something and still not be an addict (behaviorally speaking) if you don't exhibit certain negative traits. I helped conduct a study on this a while back (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S07475...).

MaulingMonkey• 4 years ago

I'm going to weigh in on the flipside, and perhaps caution about what not to do.

After getting dumped as a teen, I slipped into a dangerous, self-loathing depression. When I could not find the motivation to call up my friends or organize anything, I could at least message them on AOL Instant Messenger. When my offline peers didn't share my interests, I could find peers that did online - in IRC and in forums. I could lurk even if I couldn't be bothered to talk. Games, music, programming, and technology allowed me to distract myself from the worst of my thoughts and rumination, even when my studies couldn't. I could vent behind a psuedonum instead of worrying those closest to me. My self-found mentors in technology spanned the globe, scattered across the timezones, giving me guidance and new perspectives, despite being hidden behind online psuedonyms without means of other contact.

It perhaps wasn't the healthiest coping mechanism for depression, nor the healthiest relationship with technology, but there are far worse alternatives. And when intelligent, well meaning family labeled me a computer/internet addict when my grades suffered - and largely took away said coping mechanism with incredibly strict limits on my use of technology when I'd previously been given near unlimited free reign - they did not improve the situation or provide better substitutes. They instead made things much worse. The last thing a moody depressed teen needs is severe social isolation, the destruction of their hobbies, and a whole bunch of previously occupied time suddenly be free and in need of filling, when the filler of default is to ruminate.

When I failed to convince them to ease up, I did pick up some new hobbies to distract myself - such as arguing and rebellion, and plotting to break free from their control and gain my independence when I finally came of age. Years(?) later, they eventually backtracked, realizing their meddling wasn't improving things, and would only lead to me being eventually estranged.

I guess my main takeaway here is to warn against assuming addiction is the fundamental problem. It can be a symptom. It can be an imperfect coping mechanism - an attempt at self medication. Limits can be reasonable, but going cold turkey can be incredibly disruptive. It might not kill like going cold turkey with alcohol or some drugs can - but that doesn't mean it can't cause damage.

---

I still don't have a perfectly healthy relationship with technology, but it's okay to have some vices, and I've found some healthier activities. While you'll not find me in a gym, coworkers helped me pick up the habit of walking to lunch. Movie and board game nights give me an excuse to socialize more meaningfully offline while having fun - in part, ironically, by getting back in regular contact with people online with similar interests. I cook more. I now get paid to program, and lean towards leaving work at work. I eat with family from time to time.

I game significantly less now, simply because I gamed enough to get largely bored of it. At least I learned some about teamwork, coordination, and delegation in the process.

I'm not particularly motivated, but I'm at least independent. Pathologically independent to the point of automatically rejecting most familial help, but independent nonetheless.

I've been procrastinating on initiating and hosting more events to further improve my social life, but I'll get there eventually.

rokhayakebe• 4 years ago

One solution is to spend time with them doing activities, playing.

I have noticed children (below 3) DO NOT prefer tablets/phones. If you give a two-year a tablet, wait until they are completed engaged and ask them "wanna go outside?" they will forget the tablet. Kids always prefer to play, but when parents do/can not spend time with them, they will happily find entertainment elsewhere.

I haven't tested this with children above 3, but I suspect it is the same up to 12.

dkqmduems2• 4 years ago

Just like the rest of the internet, don't put too much weight on the parenting advice you find on HN.

fma• 4 years ago

I think your answer depends on their age. Honestly anyone where their oldest kids are younger than 5 and proclaiming how awesome they are as their kids don't use screens obviously did not do digital learning during the pandemic, where kids had to be in front of screens, or work from home with kids who had limited means to entertain themselves for a full day.

My eldest just started elementary school. She doesn't own her own devices so any videos or fun stuff on the tablet is earned through a reward system and usually we're around to ensure she doesn't go off the rails. I did uninstall YouTube on the ipad. Now she has only PBS kids, purchased videos from iTunes and the likes.

No netflix at home...any movies, tv shows is rented from the library - which also they can watch w/ reward system. Living room is full of toys, activities books etc for things they can pick up and easily do. It's not in a dedicated "toy room" where they play out of sight. Though, the living room does end up being messy all the time.

My daughter already asks for things she sees from other kids, like piercings and toys...I'm able to say no now but it'll be a hard battle in the future when kids at her school or on her bus watch TikTok or browse social media.

mixmix• 4 years ago

I don’t have kids yet but I’ve been thinking about this problem a lot. I personally don’t consider a no screen policy a very good idea, especially in the Information Age. After all, the technology is not a problem here. Instead, I’m building an intranet with an in-house search engine and a video streaming service which I’m going to populate with Wikipedia articles, my fairly decent collection of non-fiction books, some of world best fiction, movies, music etc. Besides that, no internet access for minors in my house. My fight is not with profanity or obscenity but with tasteless garbage like all that clickbaity ad-filled batshit YouTube is pushing onto me.

spullara• 4 years ago

I didn't. They are still quite successful.

timst4• 4 years ago

They need to develop strong boundaries against predatory tech. FAANG et al are narcissistic and uncaring towards an entire global generation of children. You teach them to stay away from strangers? Teach them to stay away from harmful technology as well.

_0w8t• 4 years ago

First the parents should stop being Internet or device addicts themselves. Without that nothing works long-term.

Work from home made the situation worse as children see how parents spent at least 8 hours in front of computers.

RomanPushkin3• 4 years ago

I automated math education for my 9 year-old. It's a Unity application where a student required to solve basic (currently) math examples.

For 10 examples you're getting a 25-cent coin from a coin dispenser. You can keep it or you can use this money to buy Internet access. My OpenWrt router is connected straight to coin acceptor. For one coin you're getting 30 minutes of Internet on all devices (iPad and PC).

Since it's all automated I don't need to involve too much into education process. Math score in school has greatly improved, the kiddo solved thousands of examples.

Coin dispenser is proprietary (found on ebay, one of popular model), so I literally had to hack the USB protocol. The coin acceptor had no USB interface, so I had to introduce one. I've connected this USB to my OpenWrt 32-bit router, which is also ARM - so I had to hack some USB libraries along the way so my binaries can work with USB right from OpenWrt.

One of the advantages - there is no such thing as unlimited Internet. You always need to do some work to get it. Another one - there is interruption moment when it's over. There are lots of other good things. Like you can control the number of examples that needs to be solved. How difficult they are. Kiddo also understands what money is and how easy it is to spend money and how hard it is to earn.

I'm looking for co-founder to turn it into a business.

But I think even simple button that activates Internet for 30 minutes would work, since it introduces interruption between "consuming flow".

Order• 4 years ago

Genius! Was this an original idea or adapted from elsewhere? Any plans to automate the ¢ to minute ratio when your 9yo begins to establish quarter wealth?

RomanPushkin3• 4 years ago

I haven't seen anyone doing the same or similar thing. I only did it because I thought it's gonna be easy to implement. It wasn't too easy, but it was a lot of fun.

I also made the Unity app to support 3D animations, and I'm planning to improve it. For example, it's easier to explain what "30" is with 3 rows of 10 balls (each row is 5 + 5). Animation for subtraction is different, I experimented, added 3D kittens running around, VFX effects, and so on. So kids also have a visual representation of math operations.

I'm ready to share/demonstrate the implementation to folks in South San Francisco or nearby. I would even Open Source it if there is enough interest, but can't guarantee it's gonna be super quick without some help from interested enthusiasts.

In the future I'm planning to improve math engine and visual part, so it's easier to understand what math is. There are many ideas on how to automate, since coin dispenser and acceptor support all kinds of coins.

I have a quick and a bit outdated video (in Russian) on my Youtube channel here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVyFVhoAe5g

theGnuMe7• 4 years ago

You could skip the coins and just have the unity app spit out time limited guest passwords for a network portal login, like a hotel does. I mean does openwrt support that?

RomanPushkin3• 4 years ago

It would be easy to add this to OpenWrt I think. I wanted to use coins since they're physical objects, and I also wanted to educate on what money is, how to use money, and earn money.

Funny anecdote happened one week ago, when child got back from school and said "Hey dad, look what I've got". He had 100-dollar bill in his hand, I'm not even kidding. He said "I traded some Pokemon cards at school"...

plaguepilled• 4 years ago

Not an expert, but I remember reading something about daily cardio and noninflammatory diets (low sugar, low processed foods, adequate protein and fibre, etc) was able to reduce some expressions of ADHD symptoms.

I bring up ADHD symptoms because a lot of online tech leans on the short attention span of kids.

In my own experience, focusing on this has had a small but noticeable effect on temperament around tech.

The other side of the puzzle I think is helping kids with confidence and setting their own boundaries. If they're too young for that, they're too young for tech.

rqmedes• 4 years ago

No media devices in bedroom helps

IG_Semmelweiss• 4 years ago

Our kids have not hit puberty but I think they are on the right track.

A big part of this is filling their time with endeavors they enjoy. Sports in particular are a big part of their life. They have been set on a path that they could be pros and make a career out of it shoukd they choose to and if injuries dont grt in the way.

You will be surprised how quickly tv and screen time goes away when the entire family is busy. There is no downtime during the week except when perhaps commuting - otherwise its light play with toys.

When other parents hear about our kids demanding schedules and training regimes, some are shocked. But we were also kids. We were full of energy. Kids love running. kids love learning, coaches , teammates, nownfriends. Its that or screentime.

Of course, this demands high sacrifice from parents. Its expensive. Its busy. You have to have nannies to shuttle kids from school to training or else have a renote job that allows you to commute midday.

Its work. Its not for everyone. There is no secret sauce. Just work, looking around, and knowing at the end of The day having the satisfaction that your kids are turning out quite alright. Then starting the next day, knowing that the weakest in this balancing act is you, the parent... not the kids who dont complain and are all smiles.

Gatsky• 4 years ago

I think in general parents overestimate how much what they do matters, and underestimate genetic effects. I worry that a lot of the advice here isn’t reproducible.

My advice is to look at your own life first. If you (or the other parent) have trouble with getting addicted to things, obsessive behaviours, body dysmorphism etc you might want to take a more judicious approach with your kids.

I think there are also some things that go without saying:

- Don’t let kids sacrifice sleep, so no devices in the bedroom at night.

- Be extremely careful with tween+ girls and visual social media. Restrict usage, educate and discuss a lot, and beyond that make a special effort to give them attention, do fun stuff, let them know they are special and important and valued during the vulnerable years.

- Boys and pornography. Need to talk to them about it. I don’t know how to approach this, I’ve got about a decade to work it out.

ChuckMcM• 4 years ago

When I was raising my kids the addiction was "TV". I think there are parallels but you need to decide.

One of the things kids seem to be is really really curious. I know for some this is obvious but in my kids and other kids in their cohort lots of questions lots of "why?" It is possible this is related to the idea of novelty being the thing that triggers the pleasure center and "addicts" you or it could be something else entirely. My wife and I had a goal to make sure that TV wasn't habitual.

For us, the thing was the kids needed something to do when we weren't doing something as a family or other activities. A lot of our peers would let them watch TV, we bought a lot of books (and taught them at an early age how to use the library which was, quite fortunately, within biking distance of our house).

I didn't think too much about the difference but it really stood out at a birthday party my daughter attended. The "parent in charge" of the birthday needed to set things up and switched on the TV. Nearly all of the kids gravitate to the TV and sat quietly watching it. My daughter wandered over to the bookshelf and saw a book, pulled off the shelf and started reading it. The difference was distinct enough for the parent to make a point to tell me this series of events when I picked up my kid. They were surprised that a kid would rather "read" than "watch TV".

I don't know if the right word was "rather" though, I just know that my kids had learned that an easy way to entertain yourself when there was nothing else to do was to read. I felt strongly that reading was "habit" rather than "preference."

I can't verify that of course, and later when World of Warcraft came out we all spent a lot of time playing it, but by that time not having access to external content wasn't a huge problem for the kids.

snshn• 4 years ago

Vasectomy

lettergram• 4 years ago

Join communities that don’t use technology as part of the activity: sports, church, hunting, fishing.

Yes technology will be there, but it’ll aid and further the other activities, NOT become an addition in itself.

One thing we did to further that is send the kids to a private school of like-minded parents. We have a robotics club, but no networked computers outside of that in the school. Might sound old school (it is), but if all the kids have are friends without technology, they won’t use it

WalterBright• 4 years ago

How do you protect your children from internet addiction?

Forget to pay the ISP bill.

Fire-Dragon-DoL• 4 years ago

We don't have an actual limit on gaming (my daughter is 4,my son 2). The daughter however is able to recognize when she is bored of the videogame and drops it when that happens.

I acquired that skill at the end of my teenage years, so she's already ahead!

anon2915• 4 years ago

Our children are too young to really 'get' computers. However, my policy is actually really simple. They are allowed TV when we are doing it as a family (thus, it's family time). They are not allowed to watch TV alone except exigent circumstances (namely plane rides or being very sick).

When they are older, computer time will be allowed, but the pursuit must be creative in nature.

turtlebits• 4 years ago

Kids need to learn restraint and self-control before open-ended device usage. Let them figure out how to be bored first. Set time limits, teach them what healthy usage is.

We didn't start time screen time for our kid until ~6. We required a log entry to be written so it's purpose driven, not mindless usage.

Tempest1981• 4 years ago

People are arguing opposite approaches without mentioning the obvious:

There isn't a one-size-fits-all best practice. Every kid is different. Some can self-moderate; others can be ruined. Similar to gambling, alcohol, or other addictions.

Age is also a big factor. Entertaining your 2 year old with an iPad will probably lead to worse outcomes than for a 15-year-old.

Just because something worked for your kid -- that doesn't mean it will work for all kids. Hope this is obvious, yet nobody is stating it.

forgotusername6• 4 years ago

I don't limit the time my kids can use screens at all. When I was a kid I watched TV or played video games for about 12 hours a day at weekends and as much as I could at other times. It didn't do me any harm. In fact the obsession with computers probably helped me with my career.

I don't allow social media though, as that is undeniably toxic. Also attention span reducing tiktok is not allowed. They watch a lot of YouTube, and we watch stuff together sometimes. It is basically the TV of their generation and although some of the stuff they watch is mindless, some of it is informative and helps them develop useful skills.

kludgemaker• 4 years ago

The cardinal virtues - prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance - help protect the "mind and character" from addiction or disordered attachment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_virtues

I try to help my son understand and cultivate these virtues. He is 11, and is home-schooled.

Practically, right now we use several exercises specifically intended to combat screen attachment:

1) he is supposed to set a timer when getting on his iPad (totally up to him, but HE chooses to use it)

2) two regular days a week when he can Skype with his best friends (looks forward to the social time more than the game time)

3) typically a once-a-month screen detox for 3 to 7 days (no screen time, period.)

The most effective exercise is the screen detox. Within a day his attitude changes for the better: he practices his piano more eagerly, he acts sweeter, he finds "real" things to get into, and is more creative than usual. We're doing a detox right now; he learned backgammon from a friend at his chess club yesterday, made a backgammon board this morning before school, and taught me how to play when I got home from work. ...typical example of what happens during a detox. In the summer it was usually things like playing football or collecting bugs and lizards outside that happened when the iPad was put on the shelf.

I'm ashamed (and humbled) to say that I need a detox more than he does. But I grew up not being taught to develop virtue, and I have a lot of self-correction that I'm working through. Setting my son up to not have to deal with addiction in the first place is something I can give him that I wish I had been given. His generation also has (soon to be "Saint") Carlo Acutis as a role model.

I need to set up a Pi-hole, and filter out adult website URLs for our home internet.

tommica• 4 years ago

Curious, do you tell him about your own struggles with it? It seems like that the both of you are learning it together, so what kind of reflections have you made with yourself, when you look at your son figuring it out?

t0bia_s• 4 years ago

Kids reflects parents habits. It would be naive to think that restrictions for kids limit addiction while parents constantly look at screen.

If you want kids be interested in others things, be an example and show them.

Beside of this, talk with kids about how internet works and what threats are there. I'm sure most of HN users are informed enough in this topic.

MagicMoonlight• 4 years ago

I don’t know what I’m going to do when I have children. It’s scary how fucked up they’re becoming by being given ipads at 12 months old.

I want them to use technology but it needs to be controlled so that they aren’t overexposed to things before they’re ready.

I think I’m going to try and structure it so that they mirror my experience. Start off with simpler devices like consoles and basic programming. Wean them onto it so that they don’t start out with a billion terabytes of information and porn being fed into them before they can even read.

liamtuohyff• 4 years ago

When i was 5 i was given a gameboy color, i got additcted to it, so my parents banned everything "computer related" until i was 14, depending on their mood this also included tv. When i was a kid i hated it because my parents were never able to explain why they did. But looking back, i think it was the right move. Many people i grew up with became dopamine slaves and cant stop themsevles from indulging in socialmedia/ videogames/ hedonism every day. From 14-18 i played videogames everyday as much as i could each day. I dont consider it a relapse because im antisocial and will naturally gravitate to an activity i can do alone. If i never had the childhood without tech, i could see an adulthood without anything else. If you have never lived your life without freedom, you really dont know it's value. If you always had it, you either over value it or under value it. I became a software engineer, but generally have grown a dislike for 70% of all tech on the market. I will probably end up raising my kids as close to amish as possible. Will the pendulum swing the other way and they rebell? Maybe. But a rebellion into a worse solution is temporary and I'll always support my kids in a low tech household when tech burns them.

dham• 4 years ago

We've been using the excuse that the internet "turned off" for now. It does actually happen around here, because I guess running an ISP in 2022 is harder than in 1999?

Anyway, my son is 7 and that probably won't work too much longer. We generally don't have imposed limits but if it's getting pretty late we'll just kill the internet on the device. This works pretty well because he plays all games on Xbox Play, mainly Fortnite. I honestly don't care if he sits and plays for hours because I did that around his age. The problem is, games were much harder back then because you played something like Contra 3 and lost and you basically wanted to throw the controller in the garbage. Now games are too easy.

He has been discouraged to play the Solo/Duos/Trio's in Fortnite because it can be a hard game. He mainly plays the "custom games" now and if he's on too long I'll just connect and go into the game and beat him a bunch of times until he's discouraged and turns it off. haha.

I don't know what to do when he's older, because I had no time limits on anything. I just generally balanced it out myself

greenie_beans• 4 years ago

absolutely NO internet in the house. NO tvs, NO computers, NO smartphones, NO video games. definitely NO virtual reality headsets. NO ai assistants. NO alexa, NO siri, NO home assistant, NO automated thermostat

NOTHING BUT PHYSICAL BOOKS, LPS, FLIP PHONES, E-INK E-READERS, AND PORN MAGAZINES!!!!

achenatx• 4 years ago

our oldest (15) didnt get a phone until about 13. Middle (10) has an apple watch for the phone function, 7 year old doesnt have a phone. They all have macbooks, ipads, etc.

our internet goes on for them at 6am, turns off at 7am. They have to be dressed, ready for school, brushed teeth etc, before they start at 6am. I have never had to wake my kids up for school in their lives.

They get internet again at night from 7:30-8:30 once all their work is done (reading a chapter in a book, math one grade level higher, foreign language, music). They function as a team so they all need to be done before any of them can start doing electronics.

When I was a kid (12-17) I was addicted to one of the first online graphical role playing games in the country (80s PLATO system - avatar). My dad was a CS professor so I had easy access to the network terminals. He would never have one in our house as he had phd students drop out as a result of being addicted to the game. He constantly reminded me it was better to write the game than to be addicted to the games.

https://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2013/11/game-124-avatar-1979...

At some point I just outgrew them and I periodically try to play them, but they are so shallow compared to real life I cant get addicted again.

I think as long as kids have plenty of "real life" activities that they love, they will be able to enjoy the internet in moderation.

The kids that really struggle are the ones whose parents dont help them to cultivate real world passions and success so they just spend all their free time online.

flippinburgers2• 4 years ago

If internet/porn usage is really similar to cocaine use then how do we really expect kids to moderate themselves? It seems a naive assumption that they will just be "ok" after being given a talk about it.

stewx• 4 years ago

My parents' method: you have to earn screen time by doing something productive. In my case, practising a musical instrument. 30 mins of music practice = 60 mins of screen time earned for that day.

I hated it but I quickly became one of the best musicians in our school band.

Ask HN: How do you protect your children from internet addiction?

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