What if regular exercise is the best cognitive exercise?

https://blog.vslira.net/2022/11/what-if-regular-exercise-is-best.html

by vslira • 4 years ago

564 370 4 years ago

blog.vslira.net

uptownfunk2• 4 years ago

This reminds me of something Goggins said, along the lines of working out is almost entirely a mental thing.

You access parts of your brain and your being when you’re giving everything you got to squeeze out that extra rep, or when you are going for a new PR with heavy weight. Or even when you don’t feel like working out, and you say okay I have to get my brain out of this and just do it, similar to life where I have to do work when I sometimes don’t want to.

The physical benefits (muscle mass, testosterone, appearance, strength) for me are entirely secondary to the mental/emotional benefits of working out.

It’s all mental

mattgreenrocks2• 4 years ago

100% agree. Working out for me is often an exercise in learning to be fully embodied and seeing what my limits are. At the age of 40 I finally feel like I understand myself a bit more on some deep level, probably because I'm not trying to ignore the reality of having a body.

mahathu• 4 years ago

What is the physical benefit of testosterone and how are the benefits of muscle mass and appearance different from each other?

uptownfunk2• 4 years ago

Re: testosterone, for men it helps keep your marriage together, I’ll let you figure that out

Muscle mass starts to erode with age (I think correlated with decrease in test) separate from the looks, you don’t want to be losing muscle mass because it means you’ll be weaker. Being weaker makes you more prone to injury and increases your risk of all-cause mortality.

The other thing is muscle mass takes time and effort to put on, so you really need to start early, I missed out on my prime years (teens and early 20s) but better late than never I guess!

Peter Attia (Stanford MD, longevity researcher) great source on this subject

bjornsing3• 4 years ago

I’m not sure if going to the gym is more cognitively challenging than sudoku. But something like playing football/socker probably is.

marginalia_nu3• 4 years ago

Dunno, I feel the effect of lifting is mostly one of persistent clarity.

Whatever wandering thoughts I had bouncing around in my head before a set of heavy deadlifts, all that is gone after, because the effort of pulling up the bar doesn't permit anything but complete focus.

boomskats3• 4 years ago

I think what's being challenged here is whether tasks that we consider "cognitively challenging" do actually require more "computing power" than physical exercise does. I guess it's decoupling "cognitively challenging" from "computing power".

lc9er• 4 years ago

I love lifting, and I agree with this. Even running outside, though repetitive, causes you to constantly scan the ground ahead of you for obstacles (crack in the cement, puddles, dog poop, etc), you have the stimulus of the moving background, cars/people/stray pets to avoid. You may not have to think hard about theses things, but your mind is always processing and responding to the stimulus.

For me, I think I get the most mental benefits out BJJ. I'd wager any martial art with live sparring would give the same results.

When you're doing live sparring, as opposed to just drills, you have to make constant, near instant, adjustments to your defense, look for offensive openings, scan your rolling partner's movements and try to anticipate their next attack, all while being aware of other trainees on the mats (to avoid a random foot or falling body), and working to slow your breathing and maintain composure.

ojl2• 4 years ago

I totally agree regarding bjj and live sparring. I do bjj, a bit of judo and also climbing. I think climbing is a bit similar in the way that you need almost constant focus, doing small adjustments and so on. For all these three (and similar) activities there will be consequences if losing focus and starting to think about something else.

Noumenon72• 4 years ago

I tried out the square dancing class my boomer parents attend and found it similarly challenging. You're changing direction, changing partners, and remembering calls. Now I wonder if I'm stagnating by just doing trail run.

xeromal4• 4 years ago

I'd argue against that. If you offer someone a choice between a suduko puzzle or a solidly difficult workout before they're allowed to get one with their evening, I'd guess most people would choose the puzzle. Drumming up the mental fortitude to force yourself to do something difficult is a cognitive challenge.

twawaaay• 4 years ago

On a sample of size one. I found that sticking to hard exercise (I am a runner, so intervals, tempo runs, long runs, etc) seems like it is making it easier for me to stick to hard exercise in the future. I have some theories about it (like upping my tolerance for pain) but I think ultimately it all comes down to willpower. If so, it means that willpower can also be exercised and you can increase/improve it to let you do things that are not necessarily pleasurable right now but give you delayed gratification.

Can't tell if it transfers from exercise to my actual work.

deepsun• 4 years ago

In "Willpower" book they argue that you only need willpower to make a habit. Once the habit is established, you don't exercise willpower anymore.

tejohnso• 4 years ago

Doesn't that imply that after a month without chocolate or potato chips I could easily avoid them for the rest of my life? Wish it were true.

mattgreenrocks2• 4 years ago

Seen that in my own life. It's more of figuring out the alchemy of starting a flywheel, setting it in motion, and getting out of the way.

The hard parts are mostly front-loaded (excepting the phenomenon of hitting the wall) which seems profoundly unfair, but it is what it is.

sgc• 4 years ago

Ha!

wintermutestwin2• 4 years ago

I'd argue that habituating lowers the amount of willpower required. I'd also note that it is easy to lose habits of activities that require a lot of willpower to create a habit around.

wintermutestwin2• 4 years ago

I think ultimately it all comes down to willpower

My annecdata agrees with this point.

Can't tell if it transfers from exercise to my actual work

IME, it all comes down to whether I truly care about my work.

boomskats3• 4 years ago

I don't have any references to hand, but drawing from both personal experience and anecdotal stories from places like r/nootropics, the link between cognitive performance and physical exercise is already well established and almost universally accepted. In comparison, brain training games and sudoku puzzles are rarely, if ever, mentioned as beneficial (again, anecdotally). Am I misunderstanding what's being speculated here?

Somewhat related - something that I do find quite curious from my own personal experience is that lifting heavy weights has a far greater impact on my ability to concentrate (and therefore perceived cognitive ability, I guess) than cardio/aerobic exercise does. Like night and day. I've recently started attributing it to creatine supplementation, but I do wonder if there's anything more to it than that.

return_to_monke• 4 years ago

creatine supplementation is supported by the literature to have cognitive benefits.

Also, lifting heavy does train your central nervous system too, which might be a pathway to better cognitive ability? (This second part is 100% bro science, though)

boomskats3• 4 years ago

Yeah, I guess 'lifting heavy does train your CNS too' isn't too far away from what the author of this post is speculating also. The implication seems to be that physical activity is more 'computationally challenging', rather than 'cognitively challenging' like sudoku is. 'Computationally challenging' to me implies a higher level of CNS activation than 'cognitively challenging' tasks that employ conscious reasoning only.

scotty792• 4 years ago

I think the idea this person has is pretty novel. That physical excercise is great for the mind, not only because it has some nebulous general benefits but because it computationally is a very hard task for the brain. Harder than anything you could throw at it consciously.

It might be wrong but it's interesting and somewhat novel.

tartoran• 4 years ago

because it computationally is a very hard task for the brain

Can you explain what part of physical exercise is computationally hard for the brain?

faeriechangling• 4 years ago

I haven't heard people mention it before but I've often wondered why physical exercise wasn't considered "intelligent" when so much of the brain was dedicated to tasks like moving around and coordination.

klipt2• 4 years ago

because it computationally is a very hard task for the brain

No they didn't say harder, they said it uses "more computation", there's a difference.

Your brain has many parallel systems specialized for exercise, because our ancestors have used similar systems to move their bodies for eons. Exercise fires all these systems in parallel, so your brain is getting great "throughput".

On the other hand stuff like Sudoku is using a much smaller fraction of our brain that developed recently, probably for language, and then trying to use the language part to do math, which feels "difficult" precisely because we're trying to do it with just a small, unspecialized part of our brain, instead of a bunch of specialized parallel systems.

So exercise is both "easier", but also more efficiently gets your brain working because of parallelism.

petesergeant• 4 years ago

I have found heavy powerlifting negatively affects my concentration. The exhaustion in my muscles afterwards I’ve always found very distracting

vouaobrasil• 4 years ago

It is not just that, but it's also because you have to apply a surprising amount of mental concentration in power lifting. Basically, you have to be hyper-aware of your entire form while you are lifting. From my experience that takes as much concentration as working on a hard mental problem.

etothepii• 4 years ago

In the articles hypothesis were correct this might not be a surprise, building a weight lifting robot would likely be much easier than one that could traverse complex terrain at even 4 mph.

nanomonkey• 4 years ago

You may want to play around with not working out to exhaustion. There is a whole set of routines built around just depleting your ATP, triggering mTOR, and not damaging muscle tissue or creating lactic acid build up. The Quick and the Dead book by Pavel Tsatsouline is one such routine, it uses 10 sets of 10 push-ups and 10 sets of 10 kettlebell swings with resting in between (30 minutes total, 3 times a week). I've found it to be quite effective, there are other options out there. The key is that they don't deplete you, and you can go on to do things the rest of your day without soreness or inability to walk down stairs. YMMV.

wellthisisgreat• 4 years ago

it's the day after a 9-10 RPE session that has the focus for me.

or the calming effect of exhaustion so I can tackle intense managerial problems without an emotional overhead.

bluedevilzn• 4 years ago

How come athletes aren’t getting nobel prizes?

Alternatively, why is not a single successful scientist in great physical shape?

joemazerino• 4 years ago

Because athletes are focusing elsewhere.

You're comparing top-level performers

hnrodey• 4 years ago

How come athletes aren’t getting nobel prizes?

Diminishing returns.

Alternatively, why is not a single successful scientist in great physical shape?

This is just complete falsehood. Utter nonsense.

ethanbond• 4 years ago

Fine, if your name is Einstein or von Neumann you can skip leg day.

GistNoesis• 4 years ago

Maths/Physics now need a full time career just to reach the current frontier of knowledge, you have to build on existing ground, Athletes must somehow take time to learn this knowledge, and by the time they have learned it, they are not as physically fit as they once were.

Alan Turing was a good runner.

bparsons• 4 years ago

Not a single scientist?

dfc2• 4 years ago

There are tons of successful scientists that are in shape. Excelling intellectually and physically both require discipline.

I like to run so here is the first person I thought of:

Wolfgang Ketterle: Nobel Prize Physics & Marathon PB = 2:50

https://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a20837391/im-a-...

BirAdam• 4 years ago

Just because a person does not use a thing does not mean that he/she is not capable of doing so. Additionally, to quote my favorite math teacher, what one fool can do, so can any other. The issue is our most limited resource: time. I’ve spent a ridiculous amount of time doing things that further no ability. As such, I’m less than mediocre at both sport and and work. Becoming a good athlete requires an insane investment of time into diet, exercise, training, and study of the sport not only modern but past. To claim that an athlete is dumb is to make a prescriptive claim about what knowledge is valuable. The athlete has an intuitive understanding of physics, tactics, and strategy that others do not. The athlete may also have some formal scholarly knowledge on the topic as well. The physicist would not be capable of matching the athlete in use of those same physics with his/her own body without the same training regimen and time use; and should they swap time spent, each would begin to become the other.

jmopp• 4 years ago

Magnus Carlsen talks a lot about the physical stamina you need to play chess, a purely mental game. Niels Bohr was famously a passionate footballer, who played at club level in Denmark.

Dracophoenix• 4 years ago

Edwin Hubble, while not a Nobel prize winner, was a basketball player, football, baseball player, and pugalist. He also did track and field and waterpolo polo while studying Law at Oxford .

pharrington• 4 years ago

In addition to what everyone else said, astronauts have to be in great physical shape.

ren_engineer• 4 years ago

Not sure why this is so surprising, your body is at the very least the thing carrying your brain around. Having it in good condition would obviously maximize your brain's potential

Socrates was talking about this stuff thousands of years ago:

For be you assured that there is no contest of any sort, nor any transaction, in which you will be the worse off for being well prepared in body; and in fact there is nothing which men do for which the body is not a help. In every demand, therefore, which can be laid upon the body it is much better that it should be in the best condition; since, even where you might imagine the claims upon the body to be slightest—in the act of reasoning—who does not know the terrible stumbles which are made through being out of health?
It suffices to say that forgetfulness, and despondency, and moroseness, and madness take occasion often of ill-health to visit the intellectual faculties so severely as to expel all knowledge from the brain. But he who is in good bodily plight has large security. He runs no risk of incurring any such catastrophe through ill-health at any rate

indymike• 4 years ago

I've recently started attributing it to creatine supplementation, but I do wonder if there's anything more to it than that.

My boxing coach used to say concentration trains concentration (failing to concentrate in the ring results in automatic negative feedback).

I suspect that the focus you have when lifting (so much going on there trying to control your body while exerting at maximum effort), is helping your brain learn to better focus. If you are like most people who lift, you probably are paying attention to what is going in and coming out of your body, which also requires focus as well.

In my experience, focus is a skill that is learned, and like all things, is easy for some, and very difficult to master for others.

0xcde4c3db2• 4 years ago

So, here’s the speculation / thesis: exercising, that is, operating our bodies at a higher than baseline level, with everything that entails - energy regulation, unconscious balancing, spatial awareness, etc - requires more computing power than crosswords, sudoku, finding relations between measure theory and first-order logic through category theory, etc

Even if this is true (which seems plausible, but I'm not aware of it being proven), I don't think it tells us anything about the extent to which we're looking at "exercise inhibits cognitive decline" vs. "cognitive decline inhibits exercise".

squaredot• 4 years ago

Robots still have a hard time navigating terrain and manipulating stuff

The author argues that doing things at higher pace should be cognitive intensive. But robots are not bad at doing things fast: if they can do things, they can do them also "fast" (at my understanding)

lazide2• 4 years ago

Robots can do pre-programmed things at the limits of their physical servos, which is very fast.

They are still computationally limited in how fast they can process new terrain, course-find, object detect, etc.

If their sensors only saw that object 10ms ago, they probably don’t have an idea what it is yet. At speed, 10ms can be a long time.

60mph == 88 feet per second == .8 feet (about 10 inches) per 10 milliseconds.

10 inches matters a lot when you’re on terrain, or even on a road.

rcxdude• 4 years ago

You gotta be real careful when generalising like this. A human-like robot is generally going to struggle to be faster and stronger than a human, even for a pre-programmed action. The robots which are faster and/or stronger are purpose-built (and usually are stronger because they are much larger). But also robots can be super-fast at object recognition. See automatic sorting machines, for example, which can process data extremely quickly to reject bad fruit/veg/cooked crisps/etc from a full conveyor belt. Everything is a tradeoff: there are multiple avenues in which robots will beat humans every time and many where robots are not even close on multiple fronts, not just cognitive.

trollerator23• 4 years ago

Depending on the meaning of faster, maybe. If it's to calculate a motion faster, yes, but to move faster is not the same. The dynamics change.

krisoft• 4 years ago

But robots are not bad at doing things fast: if they can do things, they can do them also "fast"

Robots are not a single thing. You can't draw general conclusions about them like that.

They are objects designed by humans, they go as fast or as slow as they are designed to go. The design space is heavily constrained by physics. This means some things are possible, some things are possible but very expensive and other things are just not possible.

A FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile is a robot. It has an onboard computer, a sensor, and fins to change direction. It flies about 300 m/s as top speed and it doesn't do things slow. It can't. [1]

A Konecranes AGV is a giant self-driving platform carrying containers in automated ports. It carries a maximum of 70t and the top speed of it is about 6 m/s. It is also a robot. [2]

There are many kinds of robots. I intentionally selected here two extremes here to show how you can't make generalisation like that.

1: https://en.missilery.info/missile/javelin 2: https://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/konecranes/product-30447-521...

seydor• 4 years ago

such a well grounded and scientific opinion. sure to attract similar anecdotes and make valid conclusions

Incidentally, is it well grounded that exercise prevents aging, and at what level? We should be watching aging research more carefully

aargh_aargh• 4 years ago

https://youtu.be/5HgSnS-z4JU

I promise this is highly relevant and worth hearing, even though it may not seem directly related.

delecti2• 4 years ago

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it matches my subjective experience.

I think better when I've been exercising, but it doesn't feel like I've given my brain a workout so much as it feels like I gave it percussive maintenance. It feels like exercise turns the sound of my subconscious from a buzzy rattle to a gentle hum, keeping it out of my way except to help. It very much does not feel like I've given my mind a workout.

Though I also have unmedicated ADHD, so my subjective experience of my subconscious might be different than most.

ericbarrett2• 4 years ago

How old are you (roughly)?

When I was in my 20s and 30s, my health varied a lot; sometimes I was sedentary and sometimes I was very active. But I never noticed a cognitive effect.

Now that I'm well into my 40s, it's very noticeable when I've been off the exercise wagon. Not day to day, but definitely on timescales of a week or two. When I'm active, my recall is sharper and my memory clearer. I also feel this with my diet (real vs. processed foods) and drinking.

peoplefromibiza4• 4 years ago

Not the op, but I am 45, did a lot of sport till my 20s, I don't exercise anymore, since at least 20 years, what I notice now is the lack of proper rest: not sleeping enough, for example.

Exercise actually makes me numb these days and I need a couple of days to recover.

While immersing in deep focused studying or exercising my mind by learning new stuff, makes me feel a lot better and much sharper.

To each his own I think.

edit: a friend of mine who never did sports at young age tells me he feels better now that he goes swimming regularly at the age of 42, but who can tell if it is just because exercise is a new experience to him?

dfc2• 4 years ago

I couldn't agree more. I like running but what I really enjoy is the change in my daily quality of life when I am regularly running.

delecti2• 4 years ago

I'm in my mid 30s, and feel that same effect on the timescales of a week. I was particularly sedentary for most of my youth, and have only been intermittently active since my early 20s.

curiousllama• 4 years ago

I also have unmedicated, diagnosed adhd. I view it as training my brain to STFU. It’s gotten good enough that in my every day life, I find that now, even a few sets of push ups can help me reset when I’m in a doom loop.

aaronrobinson• 4 years ago

IME running allows me to solve problems and my theory is that my brain has less capacity to waste because it’s having to concentrate on all those things it needs to propel me safely, leaving my thoughts less cluttered. When I become fit enough I often find myself ‘waking up’ during longer runs, as though I had been in a meditative state. It seems completely plausible that the brain has to do more when running than when solving a puzzle.

phkahler2• 4 years ago

Read about EMDR therapy an its origin (walking). Getting the two halves of the brain working together seems to be important.

vervez• 4 years ago

Here's a short (unscientific) article (that kinda links to scinetific articles) about the link between lactic acid buildup and its relation in the brain. Sounds like exercise generates a natural nootropic. https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/lactic-acid-...

csours3• 4 years ago

I believe that the Brain-Computer analogy has been very harmful.

I grew up thinking of myself as a "brain on a stick" - my body didn't really matter and only my brain was important. I think read a bunch of science fiction that made fun of this idea, but I didn't realize it was making fun of it and I took it seriously.

You are not a brain on a stick - your body is important. Developing an understanding of your sensations and emotions is important. Developing an understanding of your deeply held beliefs and assumptions is important. Keeping your body healthy is important.

marginalia_nu3• 4 years ago

You can largely blame Descartes for this notion.

vlabakje90• 4 years ago

This rather finds its origin in religion (Abrahamic, amongst others), where the soul is regarded being as separate from the body.

mikrl• 4 years ago

Developing an understanding of your sensations and emotions is important

There are pleasant social side effects from doing this but sometimes being so in tune can affect you in weird ways too.

csours3• 4 years ago

"Balance in all things" - Ember Spirit

peoplefromibiza4• 4 years ago

You are not a brain on a stick

We probably are not, but I'm not convinced that the opposite is true.

Stephen Hawkins did not notoriously exercise much, given his condition, and yet he died at 76, despite the odds.

Einstein routinely walked a few miles a day and that's all the exercise he did.

Many other popular great thinkers of the past spent a lot more time on books than improving their bodies.

In Italy we learn as children about Giacomo Leopardi, a very popular poet, writer and philosopher of the 19th century, according to Wikipedia "considered the greatest Italian poet of the nineteenth century and one of the most important figures in the literature of the world", that His continual studies undermined an already fragile physical constitution, and his illness, probably Pott's disease or ankylosing spondylitis, denied him youth's simplest pleasures

Without evidence I reckon that all we can conclude is that only sometimes exercise is the best cognitive exercise, but we don't know why nor if it is actually true.

datameta2• 4 years ago

Without attempting to take away anything from your comment I will point out that a routine of walking a few miles a day is sufficient to reap most cognitive benefits.

csours3• 4 years ago

Yes, it is a relative thing, not a determinative thing.

It's hard to talk about this without tripping on ableism - but - Stephen Hawkins started out with such a great cognitive ability that a deficit later in life would have been less noticeable. Life is more than a cognitive experience, it's a human experience. Hawkins' human experience was not great. I've read that he was very hard on the people close to him. Even if exercise 'only' helped with dealing with emotions, that would still show up as a cognitive improvement - it's hard to think straight when you are upset.

I'm not convinced that the opposite is true.

I'm not entirely sure what 'the opposite' means. "You are a brain on a stick"? It is evident that the brain does not survive without the body. It is evident that the brain is affected by what the body does. The body is not a stick.

The brain does compute, but it is not a computer. A computer does not actively take in information about the world. A computer does not form familial and tribal affiliations. A computer has a very limited experience of the world.

asveikau• 4 years ago

Einstein routinely walked a few miles a day and that's all the exercise he did.

Do you mean to say this is insignificant? I think even if you don't work up much of a sweat or do some heavy lifting or whatever, a daily walk is very good for your health.

lo_zamoyski• 4 years ago

The first mistake is to exclude the brain from the body. The brain is just another part of the body. It doesn’t live in a universe of its own hermetically sealed off from the body. It is the body! Every region of you is you. Certainly, some regions (I hesitate to use the word “parts“ with all its mechanistic baggage) are more critical to your existence and operation, but that doesn’t have anything to do with your identity qua identity. The brain is seamless with “the rest”, and in a state of mutual and coherent dependence with “the rest”.

(Now, I can argue that the intellect as abstracting faculty is not material, but this faculty is not disconnected from the brain and needs the brain to operate, and so again, the health of the body affects even those faculties which, strictly speaking, are not bodily per se.)

bigDinosaur2• 4 years ago

I always understood the brain as a computer analogy to be more that the brain performs computations, which seems kind of obvious but wasn't really obvious before it was adopted as a model. That doesn't mean it's entirely distinct/separate from the rest of the body at all.

pcf• 4 years ago

The book "Spark" by John Ratey also talks a lot about how regular aerobic exercise simply balances out a lot of systems, and very likely will help against everything from depression to Alzheimers.

spmurrayzzz• 4 years ago

I came here to post the same thing re: Ratey's work. Spark has been an important book for me, it's the reason I bought an exercise bike for my apartment. I've always worked out 2 or 3 times per week, but extended high heart rate cardio was something I always avoided before I discovered the neurological/cognitive benefits.

beebeepka2• 4 years ago

I guess it depends on what one considers "exercise". I don't think lifting weights in disgusting smelly rooms translates improved cognition by itself but I don't mind if people think it does.

That said, I experienced a real physical and mental decline quickly after I gave up my morning routine because it was too hot. I felt it mere weeks into the pause. Pretty ordinary.

xeromal4• 4 years ago

I don't think the author required that you had to go to the gym. You can always work out at home and smell your own BO.

beebeepka2• 4 years ago

The "article" is two short paragraphs. They didn't say much of anything.

Take my comment as a meta commentary - making fun of the bro science here that I didn't want to engage directly.

ghotli• 4 years ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurobiological_effects_of_p...

"Neurobiological effects of physical exercise"

Lots of handwavy / subjective comments led me to post this.

Personally I prefer understanding the acronyms as to what's been measured in the body due to regular exercise. No need for anything less than hard detail, imo. BDNF/VEGF expression, etc etc. Worth reading and looking up all the words you don't know yet.

0xcde4c3db2• 4 years ago

I agree that this is a good idea overall, but also keep in mind that there are some major caveats:

1) A specific measure going up or down with exercise might or might not actually lead to the practical improvements that "should" go with it (cf. Goodhart's law)

2) Many studies are poorly designed or outright defective, and it tends to take a shockingly long time for people to stop routinely citing known-bad studies.

3) Even studies that lack fundamental flaws still often come with major practical limitations that tend to undermine attempts to generalize them. Exercise studies in particular are often limited to either "healthy" people of a relatively narrow age range or people who have a specific medical condition. In the latter case, there may be exclusion criteria that render the sample population non-representative of the overall population with that condition (e.g. in terms of overall severity, specific complications, or comorbidities).

4) Results are often summarized in a way that exaggerates their importance. A small effect size might be glossed over by emphasizing the large percentage of subjects for whom the change was statistically significant, for example.

hnthrowaway0328• 4 years ago

Once one has a kid he/she will immediately realize that physical competence is not a luxury but a must-have for basic survival.

abbadadda• 4 years ago

“Exercise turns out to be the closest thing to a wonder drug that self-control scientists have discovered. For starters, the willpower benefits of exercise are immediate. Fifteen minutes on a treadmill reduces cravings, as seen when researchers try to tempt dieters with chocolate and smokers with cigarettes. The long-term effects of exercise are even more impressive. It not only relieves ordinary, everyday stress, but it’s as powerful an antidepressant as Prozac. Working out also enhances the biology of self-control by increasing baseline heart rate variability and training the brain. When neuroscientists have peered inside the brains of new exercisers, they have seen increases in both gray matter—brain cells—and white matter, the insulation on brain cells that helps them communicate quickly and efficiently with each other. Physical exercise—like meditation—makes your brain bigger and faster, and the prefrontal cortex shows the largest training effect.” - Kelly McGonigal

jrh206• 4 years ago

as seen when researchers try to tempt dieters with chocolate and smokers with cigarettes

This sounds so unethical. If I were a dieter or ex-smoker I would definitely not sign up for this sort of study.

adverbly2• 4 years ago

When I read things like this I can't help but wonder why so many "gym rats" are... lets just say "not quite all there". Obviously some are far above, above, or of average cognitive abilities, but at my school many athletes/kinesthesiology students were embarrassingly, shockingly bad at math/science/logic despite spending by far the most time in the gym - and all the tutoring in the world doesn't seem to make up for it.

ok123456• 4 years ago

You restricted your sample to student athletes and kinesthesiology majors. There are plenty of people who work out regularly who don't fall into those categories.

The student athletes are, likely, being forced to seek out tutoring to remain on an active roster. Academics is not generally their top concern, and they're being coerced to see you. They're there to check a box.

I'm sure there are good people going through a kinesthesiology program, but it doesn't have the best reputation for attracting the best students.

ninjinxo• 4 years ago

What if sleep is the best cognitive exercise?

thinkharderdev• 4 years ago

Depends on the relevant margin. If you get adequate sleep then sleeping more won't help (and may actually hurt) but exercise can actually raise the baseline. To use a very rough analogy, sleep is like the fan in your computer. If it's working optimally it ensures you can utilize the CPU close to its physical limit. But exercise is like upgrading the CPU.

tomjakubowski2• 4 years ago

Anecdotally, exercising regularly has improved my sleep quite a lot.

travisporter• 4 years ago

I think this study is relevant. Athletes do a ton of processing https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn2672

themodelplumber• 4 years ago

The logic makes sense, especially if you consider sensory negotiation its own special activity using various cognitive tools.

But also, there are some very interesting layers of things going on.

In talking to various athletes about running, the mental process and related result of the activity sometimes seems completely different from person to person to a stark degree.

As an example, some long-distance runners experience running as a de facto journaling exercise, as they are able to benefit from an ongoing internal monologue. So the results are similar to getting free mental wellness care for as long as you care to run.

So, that's also a lot of what we'd call growth and development going on.

They also report that this is unique to running for them, IOW they don't experience this sitting at a desk.

And that's just one example process and outcome, with others being similarly prized, if completely different.

(If this was something I experienced myself, I think I might be a distance runner too... It's pretty cool.)

merely-unlikely• 4 years ago

+1 for the theory. I do my best thinking running, biking, and walking while I find sitting in place inhibits my ability to think dramatically. However, I also find staring out the window in a moving train or car conducive to thinking in a way staring out a stationary window is not.

orsenthil• 4 years ago

Exercising is just more honest than using brain, for say, reasoning with words. In the order, I will say 1. Physical Exercise 2. Building Something that stands by itself and works, 3. Solving a well defined problem are all honest undertakings. In real messy world, we deal with ambiguities and people, and it requires some skill reduce them to the above three and be honest about it.

a9h74j3• 4 years ago

+1 here for mentioning "building something [physical] that .. works" as part of a cognitively healthy mix.

chiefalchemist• 4 years ago

Exercise is healthy. Full stop.

The body / mind paradigm is false. There is no separation. They are deeply - and wisely - entangled.

The brain is an organ, and organs in aggregate benefit from exercise. The result is a healthier system / unit.

Are puzzels and such a bad thing? No. But they're not going to fix a compromised, or too often, broken system.

aliqot3• 4 years ago

Working out makes you more cognitively sharp because it increases the rate of fluid transfer throughout your body and increases metabolism. Ancillary effects of this are calmness, endorphins, and regulated sleep. There I said it, no magic science required. You bring balance in, you get balance out. This ain't the type of cut throat science most of you on HN expect, but sometimes the simple explanation is the one.

b33j0r2• 4 years ago

I believe most of this, except that no one I know who works out a lot is calm.

If anything, I’m always looking around for empty syringes. They act like they are gonna climb a mountain then come back and try to make me do Beachbody and chalean extreme, then yell at me about what I eat ;)

Not saying exercise is bad, but I do not associate it with calmness. (I’m a healthy dude, you are not hearing this from someone 50 lbs overweight)

bogota• 4 years ago

Your comment was a wild ride. First asserting people who work out aren’t calm and then going into steroid use.

ramraj07• 4 years ago

Working out doesn’t by itself make you Albert Einstein or Dalai Lama. It just makes you better than you were before, at least according to these studies.

One could speculate why folks who are already prone to exercising aren’t necessarily calm folks but that’s just speculation.

technovader• 4 years ago

This is plain nuts.

Regular people workout as well, not just steroid junkies.

colechristensen• 4 years ago

A lot of gym people really do seem to be addicts and/or have at least mild eating disorders or significant body image issues. Exercise in general is good so it’s not necessarily framed this way. There is a lot of overlap between behaviors of people I’ve known with substance use problems and people who really like exercise. It’s just that for example drinking to excess on a regular basis has quite a few more drawbacks than a gym obsession.

KronisLV• 4 years ago

I believe most of this, except that no one I know who works out a lot is calm.

Back when I tried exercising a lot more for a bit, I actually experienced way more calmness in my life. A part of that might have been that a lot of physical exhaustion brought about unparalleled ease of falling asleep and actually improved the quality of the rest I got.

Another part might have been the fact that for a while it felt like the "baseline" of how much energy I had slightly increased. It was easier to find motivation to do things and I didn't need to rely upon discipline so much as I do now, a zen sort of feeling instead of (as much) procrastination doom and fidgety thoughts. One might also talk of some minute cardiovascular/metabolism improvements as well.

Maybe I should take up more exercise again, it's been a few months and even though I hate actually exercising the benefits, even if relatively minor, are hard to argue against. Just need to find a podcast or something of that sort to keep myself busy and make the experience less mundane.

Though exercise alone won't have any really significant effects, you also need to eat right, take care of yourself in other ways (e.g. sleep schedule, mental state, any addictions or unhealthy habits), so there are a lot of factors to consider.

Disclaimer: these are my subjective and anecdotal experiences.

xeromal4• 4 years ago

Weight is only a portion of good health.

trashface• 4 years ago

Maybe the non-calm exercisers are also loading up on stimulants.

aesclepius• 4 years ago

You're conflating two issues. One, the benefit of exercise on mental health, and two, the side effects of the gym lifestyle and culture.

User23• 4 years ago

Strenuous resistance exercise also powerfully stimulates the central nervous system. It’s conceivable that the adaptations for better recruiting motor units might spill over.

agumonkey2• 4 years ago

Even before physiological changes, there's something strange in moving. 200m from my house, my brain starts to have different ideas.

I cannot keep from thinking that our brain and our legs are connected neurologically. They tap on the same space exploration abstractions.

aliqot3• 4 years ago

Even before physiological changes, there's something strange in moving. 200m from my house, my brain starts to have different ideas.
I cannot keep from thinking that our brain and our legs are connected neurologically. They tap on the same space exploration abstractions.

Absolutely. Something happens during a bike marathon where my body and brain are eventually independent of my thoughts and I'm moving on autopilot with mild tunnel vision while thinking about complex thoughts, old memories, things I could have handled better. I can only attribute it to persistent eustress and the post-metabolic state of endorphin saturation combined with adrenaline.

cowmoo728• 4 years ago

Many great writers throughout history said that walking was integral to their success. There's a small anthology of writers writing about walking.

https://www.csmonitor.com/Books/2019/0531/Fancy-a-stroll-Gre...

The New Yorker also had an article about walking and thinking in 2014.

https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/walking-...

terribleperson2• 4 years ago

Anecdotally, I find that I come up with ideas almost every time I'm on a long drive. There might be a shared mechanism, whether that's something related to navigation or simply an inability to occupy oneself in a way other than thinking.

brianpan• 4 years ago

How about working out makes you cognitively sharp because it requires COGNITION? It's not the kind of "thinking" we normally consider but your brain is working to direct your body.

Basketball is my favorite way to exercise and there is a lot of analysis of how to get my body to the right places to achieve a goal. Or how to deceive a defender and manipulate their body to the wrong place. Or simple shot mechanics or how to move my eyes so I don't lose awareness of other players.

I started dance because it's such a different way of moving my body that I never tried before. Figuring out how to do something and improve (even physically) takes strategizing.

jasfi2• 4 years ago

This is a very good answer. Even walking on a treadmill requires cognition you typically take for granted. There are other exercises that are more obviously related to cognition such as mental math and crosswords, but physical exercise is likely in the same league.

brookst2• 4 years ago

Yep. I find climbing 100% mentally absorbing, and the problems and solutions are so far from my day job’s domain that I believe it helps with mental adaptability.

googlryas2• 4 years ago

Running doesn't require much cognition (imho), my body is on auto pilot and I forget time has passed - but I still feel like I get the beneficial effects from doing it.

a9h74j3• 4 years ago

because it requires COGNITION

FWIW, one set of snippets from Joe Rogan on YT included this statement: I believe academics underestimate just how mental it is to get through a hard workout.

jader201• 4 years ago

Is this a thing where it makes a big difference even if you’re typically sedentary, or you have to be pretty active over a long period (e.g. years/decades) to make a real difference?

whichfawkes• 4 years ago

For me, the main benefit of exercise is immediate. However - the magnitude of the immediate positive effect is somewhat related to the intensity/duration of the exercise that I can tolerate.

So I would say something like "A 5k run would make anybody above a certain fitness level feel pretty good". Like, in a way that you'd notice immediately during, and after. For me, there's runners' high and good body-chemicals and a sharp mind the rest of the day. There's not as much of the good stuff if it's like a real strain to run that far. There's an optimal level of physical stress. Taking a sedentary person and chasing them through a 5k run with an electric cattle prod them is not going to help them feel good. Similarly, someone who regularly runs marathons is not going to notice much of an effect from a short walk at a slow pace.

How to balance this out (how much exercise do you need to feel good) is a very individual thing. Practically speaking, you just have to try stuff and get to know your body.

I will say though that marked changes in physical condition can occur over more like weeks than decades. So if you go for a walk and think "well that was a little bit nice, but not worth taking an hour to do", maybe invest the time to build up to something more intense like cycling or jogging, because, as anyone who exercises intentionally will tell you, it seems to be worth it once you find out what's right for you.

smt88• 4 years ago

The endorphin thing is a myth: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi...

Nothing in human biology is simple.

mythhouse2• 4 years ago

How is it all the computer nerds in movies and in real life are in terrible shape and prbly never workout.

markwkw• 4 years ago

This is true only if your definition of “computer nerd” includes terrible shape and never working out.

googlryas2• 4 years ago

Because most stories are told through stereotypes, not through deep diving into every character's background and motivations. James Bond wouldn't be as fun if you got the back story about the Russkies he callously snapped the neck of and saw that they only took what he thought was a low key security job because he needed to pay for cancer treatment for his babushka.

scarface743• 4 years ago

I’ve got a really obscure personal anecdote. I have cerebral palsy. For all intents and purposes it’s really mild. It only really affects my left hand and slightly my left foot.

I’ve been an average runner at times in my life (10 minute miles up to 15Ks), a part time fitness instructor for slightly over a decade from my mid 20s to mid 30s extra.

What I noticed when it came to anything highly choreographed like dancing or a complex fitness routine and trying to listen to the beat and stay on beat, even though I can physically do the moves, it takes me a lot longer to process choreography than most people. It was mentally much more challenging and tiring than anything I do at my day job (software development).

I don’t see how simple exercise could be cognitive exercise. I could completely zone out while running.

robotresearcher• 4 years ago

Most of what your brain does is not available to consciousness. You can be zoned out and brain-busy. Placing your feet running on a rocky trail is an amazingly complex task.

scarface743• 4 years ago

Funny enough, walking on uneven terrain takes a lot of concentration for me - again the CP. But running on pavement a few miles allows me to zone out.

bjornsing3• 4 years ago

Interesting. How about something like soccer?

scarface743• 4 years ago

I’ve been “fit” at various times in my life by various definitions - ie a decent runner, weightlifter, etc. But I’ve never been “coordinated” enough to be even average at any sport.

Luckily in High School and college, I could choose swimming and weightlifting as my Physical Ed requirements,

Even being a fitness instructor didn’t take dynamic coordination since I was in charge of the class, do moves I was completely comfortable with and rehearsed extensively. I was never a good student in a highly choreographed fitness class. I picked up moves here and there from other instructors and made them my own.

knodi• 4 years ago

Shouldn’t people working laborious jobs have higher than normal office jobs cognitively healthy?

lob_it9• 4 years ago

What percentage of either are actually in a healthy environment?

The stats from the AHA show 60%-70% are overweight/obese.

Another study shows upwards of 70% on perscription medication.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-shows-70-percent-of-ameri...

To actually meet a "natural" is quite rare :)

BMI is a lifestyle choice, but obviously unhealthy environments are a side effect of low-quality data/food/education

SnowHill9902• 4 years ago

I’d go as far as to say that the burden of proof is on anybody claiming that regular exercise is not as fundamental as regular eating or regular sleeping or regular breathing. Reductionist, functionalist science has been extremely harmful in shaping how people understand themselves.

fkregexp• 4 years ago

Read the title as "what if regular expressions is the best cognitive exercise" and I was fairly skeptical.

dukeofdoom• 4 years ago

I did the stairway to heaven in hike in Hawaii. Started when it was still dark. It was exhausting, but in many ways it felt mind opening. Certain physical experiences build neural connections that you can't get any other way. Just being in a position to slip and die will make you alert and releases adrenaline, and you need to focus. Regular mountain climbers are probably different humans. Plus the views were spectacular.

16594470912• 4 years ago

At the risk of sounding to newage-y, I experience the benefits of exercising as energy balancing.

Solving problems, learning and building new things all day can be very mentally exhausting. Cardio, sports, lifting; helps re-balance the physical with the mental. I am sure there are more scientific words and biological descriptions that I lack the vocabulary for. If I get too mentally focused on a project/job/problem and go days without matching it with vigorous physical activity, I end up not sleeping as well, am less tolerant, more scattered and brain fog tends to start rolling in. If I counter it with the physical exercise or physical energy expenditure the mental clarity comes back, I sleep better, and don't have hair-triggered verbal impulse control issues. Otherwise, if I let it go for too long, lethargy sets in - which I attribute to the body/physical and mind/mental trying to rebalance itself. I dont think it cares that it makes me feel like crap overall, more that it's neutral in just wanting a balance however that comes about.

I often refer to exercise as me taking care of my mental health - as opposed to being physically fit. That could be seen as "exercise [being] the best cognitive exercise". Looking at it that way, exercise creates a mental-out imbalance, which causes the stored energy in the mind to be stimulated and need more output creating the mental sharpness. Obviously I have nothing to back up the claims other than decades of experiencing this to be true for me time and time again; though I do believe there are better biological explanations than energy.

ksimukka• 4 years ago

Sigh. I let myself go weeks without exercising and feel terrible, both mentally and physically.

krallja2• 4 years ago

And if I would just exercise I would remember that exercise would solve the problem... but I don't have the mental foresight to do so, so I let it go for another day, and another...

isthisthingon99• 4 years ago

Exercise gets boring. Just like anything else. Detect this and switch up.

hahamrfunnyguy• 4 years ago

I am in better shape than I've been in a few years. My exercise is more enjoyable now, and doesn't feel like a chore to do it. This year I signed up for a half dozen mountain bike races, so they were a motivator to go out and ride.

Every week my friends and I meet up and run 3.5 miles. After the run, we all hangout and have a beer at a nearby bar. The meetup spot is 6 miles away and I ride my bike hard there, and at a leisurely pace on the way back. It's nice having this activity to look forward to every week.

I haven't signed up for any races since the summer, but I have it in the back of my mind that I will start again in the spring, so that helps me make time for bike rides (which I enjoy).

My friends don't like to run in the dark, so I will probably join a volleyball league this winter for some weekly socialization and activity.

So, I think waaaay eaiser to find stuff you will like doing or at least an activity with people you like being around. Check Facebook for group rides/runs in your area.

SoftTalker4• 4 years ago

I started lifting a few years ago. Everything was good until this summer when I developed knee pain while squatting that was excruciating at its worst. Got that mostly fixed with some specific exercises and focus on coorect form, and then developed low back pain that I have not resolved yet. Most recently tore a muscle in my shoulder, which I am working on rehabbing. So now pretty much all daily activities are accompanied by some amount of pain. I wake up at least twice a night from shoulder or back pain.

webmobdev• 4 years ago

One way out of this is to not join a gym but learn exercises that you can do anywhere (e.g https://blog.paleohacks.com/how-to-work-out-with-no-equipmen... ). And be forgiving towards yourself too - forgot to exercise for a day or a week, fine - some days are just shitty in our life - just do one exercise today (motivation follows actions). You don't have to do the full sets of exercise, if you don't feel like it. Just focus on doing one exercise (action is the fuel required to power your motivation). Enjoy the feeling. And continue again everyday.

phkahler2• 4 years ago

> I experience the benefits of exercising as energy balancing.

I find that a lot of fringe stuff like that can be reframed into other fringe or even more "normal" terminology. Which words or metaphors one uses are simply what clicks for them. If "energy balance" is the word that feels right to you, use it. ;-)

Loveaway• 4 years ago

I've heard there's literally some kind of electric charge going on, and your muscles play an important role in this. They might act as storage of sorts, but you need to exercise eventually so they can discharge, otherwise you get to the point where things can't function properly. Heart is supposed have crucial part in generating electrical fields too. Not much info on that topic so take it with a grain of salt.

mythhouse2• 4 years ago

I often refer to exercise as me taking care of my mental health - as opposed to being physically fit.

Same. I don't care about my physical health all that much but my friends/family think i am some sort of health fanatic. It is the only thing that has gotten me through tough times, its my escape.

madiator• 4 years ago

I don't get why you don't care about your physical health. You got one body for the rest of your life..

tsol4• 4 years ago

Same here. I do cold showers, sauna, eat fiber every day, almost religiously take supplements, and exercise most days. People think I'm a health fanatic type but really I just feel awful normally, and when I do all of this I feel okay. It's just to keep myself mentally okay. I have a theory that's why depression and anxiety are so common in humanity-- in general they force people to keep improving(until they don't).

version_five• 4 years ago

I'm similar and ironically I think having exercise as a coping mechanism, if you like, is actually a way better motivator than for health reasons, and makes it easier to stick with. I think if people could get into a routine of exercising for mental relaxation, and see the benefits that way, it would make it more attractive.

blaser-waffle• 4 years ago

I'll join the group of folks saying "same". 60 minutes at the gym, doing some light running, 3-5km, plus some weights isn't crazy.

More about change of scenery, getting out, and tearing myself away from social / personal / work entanglements. Just me vs the iron.

theshrike79• 4 years ago

When I was most stressed and semi-burned out during my career I found that martial arts was the best way to decompress.

I especially preferred the kinds that heavily relied on sparring with partners during the class. It's _really_ hard to ruminate on everything you didn't get done today when the person opposite you will punch/kick you if your concentration falters =)

It's similarly hard to start overthinking when you're too tired to think, HIIT-style circuit training in a group worked pretty well.

Nowadays I'm a bit less stressed and can manage it better - just a walk in the nature and newageyly "being in the moment" is enough, no need for the extremes of youth =)

wiz21c• 4 years ago

Same stuff here. I practice tai chi and as you may know practicioners usually work in group. Keeping in sync with the others is 100% part of the practice and is impossible to do if one is not really concentrated on its surroudings. There's no way you might think about something else while doing it :-) (and I don't even talk about the sheer amount of proprioception you have to use to do the movements correctly)

anonymousDan• 4 years ago

Which martial arts specifically do you recommend?

bitexploder2• 4 years ago

I have been kind of deep down these rabbit holes of how it works physically. It comes down to some kind of simple principles. Exercise gives your brain more blood. Lifting puts static pressure and conditions vessels and such. Many pro-brain-health hormones get released. The physical actions force a degree of indirect distraction that lets your sub-conscious work as well. These things all combine to promote brain health and problem solving. The brain uses a ton of energy so the blood flow just keeps it well fed.

E: it also makes sure junk from metabolic processes are cleaned up etc.

jdpigeon• 4 years ago

There was a rather compelling pathway proposed years ago: skeletal muscle activation leads to the secretion of a protein in the blood called Irisin. This protein then crosses the blood-brain barrier and upregulates brain-derived neurotrophic factor.

AtlasBarfed• 4 years ago

And when you exercise, certainly in HIIT, parts of your brain go to a lower usage, but at the same time there is a ton of blood going through the tissues, so the cells probably get to recharge with all the extra blood and nutrient/energy transport going on.

Plus when you're done with exercise, the entire metabolic engine keeps going for 30-60 minutes (or even more depending on how hard you go), which also gives the opportunity for brain cells to recharge.

grzes• 4 years ago

i have exactly the same feelings/experiences. i started to ride a bike when pandemic begun and it really improved my comfort of living and ovearll "mental" attitude. its really not about fitness but more like a therapy for a brain to reset. its best to ridea in areas where you can be close to the nature as the presence of nature also contributes

datavirtue• 4 years ago

If you are running or cycling it is VERY important to stretch extensively afterward. Perfectly "healthy" and trim cyclists and runners can end up with back problems that lead to all sorts of health problems because they have not stretched the legs and core regulalry. Ham strings tighten up like steel cords and can ruin your back...especially if you sit for significant periods of time each day. I have learned this the hard way.

ozim2• 4 years ago

I don't really know where it came from - but there was this idea that if you are smart you neglect sports - if you are sporty you neglect smarts.

There was jocks vs nerds as a general dichotomy.

Last years we find it more and more to be a false dichotomy.

Just think that you can find "brasilian ju jitsu nerds" or software developers that work out quite a lot.

Not to mention pro-gamers who are not only practicing playing their game - but get physical workout in their training regimen to really go to the top.

Being physically fit IS caring about mental health there is nothing newage-y about it.

There is no mind-body separation, mind is body whether someone likes it or not. If you exercise your muscles to move in a specific way you exercise your mind as well. That is known phenomenon in strength sports - one can build up muscle mass as much as they want but they also have to adapt neural pathways for strength - which is mind.

themitigating• 4 years ago

I notice that if I perform a large amount of physical activity during the day, like playing soccer, I'm tired (obviously). However, the lack of energy applies to both physical and mental tasks.

rubicon33• 4 years ago

I don't actually think this is as much of a false dichotomy as you believe.

In my experience that separation between physical ability and smarts has always existed on some level. Yes of course there are engineers who work out, and soccer players who code, but I've generally seen that the best engineers do not work out much, and the best soccer players do not code much.

Some of that may in fact just come down to time and how much they're spending it on their craft. At the end of the day though, the very brightest and most talented software devs I know are simply out of shape.

osigurdson4• 4 years ago

Single datapoint: I ran 50k per week on average for 1.5 years during Covid. I don’t feel it changed my cognitive ability. I also deeply believe that exercise should make a difference in these areas. I’m at a loss to explain the lack of impact that it had.

gateorade• 4 years ago

50k per week is kind of a lot. I’m assuming you were training for something specific and were therefore on top of it, but that amount of work could definitely negatively effect your cognitive ability if you weren’t getting enough calories/protein/water/sodium to replenish what you were losing.

osigurdson4• 4 years ago

I built up to that over a few months. Basically, three 10Ks during the week + 20K on the weekend. I was using the Maffetone approach so none of these runs were taxing.

robocat• 4 years ago

“Running” starts at about 10km/h: say 5 hours spread over a week is not a lot. Walking is about 5 km/h, jogging is in-between. Average pace is something near 10 km/h for Strava users aged 20 to 49: https://www.healthline.com/health/fitness-exercise/average-r...

osigurdson4• 4 years ago

I wasn't so much that cognitive ability was lower. It just wasn't any different. Basically, no observable impact on anything, positive or negative from this 18-month experiment.

dimmke• 4 years ago

I read this title as "what if regular expressions are the best cognitive exercise?"

And decided I would rather just be dumb in the span of 2 seconds.

blackoil• 4 years ago

Our brain is made of different parts with different responsibility. Will exercising one part materially help rest? For body we have exercise schedule, does something similar exist for brain?

scmitton• 4 years ago

There's a recent freakonomics episode that talks about this question (13:18) https://freakonomics.com/podcast/can-you-learn-to-love-hard-...

The host Stephen Dubner sites a piece in psychology today that argues physical activity is strongly connected with cognitive function. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201...

rayrey2• 4 years ago

I know that one thing that really distinguishes humans from other animals is our ability to throw objects with incredible accuracy. Some of our primate cousins can throw as well, but not with such precision. Consider the amount of processing our mind is doing with each throw, especially in a fast moving game.

a9h74j3• 4 years ago

I have no basis for disagreement (although how many "only humans can" statements have fallen over the years). I wonder if a human proclivity towards organized sports could contribute, though. Organized sport also suggests organized practice and many opportunities for repetition. These could be required for accuracy up to physical and cognitive limits.

bob10292• 4 years ago

I have found the specific nature of exercise to be very important in this regard.

Moderate cardio is definitely beneficial and helps to maintain some baseline. But, I have never really felt like I "stepped up" to a new level without reaching out to things like HIIT, heavy weight lifting and other forms of plyometrics.

Something about pushing your brain into the "oh shit I don't know if I should be doing this" territory seems to trigger the most powerful effects.

throwawaaarrgh• 4 years ago

I know plenty of people who exercise a lot and are still idiots. I also used to be very fit, but I only felt cognitively sharper after learning a lot of different complex stuff over time

xenospn• 4 years ago

What if you did both?

jasfi2• 4 years ago

I think the key word here is regular. That goes for crosswords, etc. as well.

AlbertCory2• 4 years ago

Trigger warning: Self-promotion here. I'm not selling anything, though.

Your brain is part of your body. It's as simple as that.

I just celebrated 50 years of running: https://albertcory50.substack.com/p/50-years-of-running

I thought long & hard about motivation and how I've kept it up. "Will power" is not it. And I've heard every conceivable excuse about why someone does not exercise. Here's a big one: "people will look at me weird." Or on the flip side, "All my friends exercise, so I have to, too." The great Richard Feynman had something to say about that.

https://albertcory50.substack.com/p/what-do-you-care-what-ot...

And lastly, don't listen to people telling you that you need a regular schedule that you stick to, no matter what. You will never keep that up for long, and if you really hate some exercise, you'll stop:

https://albertcory50.substack.com/p/only-do-exercises-you-li...

wazoox• 4 years ago

don't listen to people telling you that you need a regular schedule that you stick to, no matter what. You will never keep that up for long...

I've been running 6 days a week for 15 years now. What works for you may not work for other, and vice-versa. I definitely hated running for most of my life, and despised sport in general, but sticking to a routine definitely was the right solution for me.

schwartzworld• 4 years ago

Running is an exercise that is only easy to enjoy if you reach and maintain a certain level of conditioning. If I run once a week or less, I'd never get in the zone, but once I am regularly running 20+ miles per week, I can start to actually like the way it feels.

6 days a week is a lot for most people, but I'm glad it works for you. For me, it's easier to think of it in terms of miles per week. I can't commit to 6 days, but I can commit to 15 or 20 miles.

irrational• 4 years ago

There are a number of things that take effort, but I know I will feel much better afterwards and be happy I did them. But it takes so much to get myself to do them that they often don’t get done in favor of low effort low to medium reward things.

hdjjhhvvhga• 4 years ago

Let's suppose for a moment that the numerous studies showing the benefits of exercise don't exist and its influence on cognition is neutral. Shouldn't you move, then? On the contrary - exercise is absolutely necessary for our survival and minimizing the probability of a huge number of illnesses, from cardiac problem to cancers. So a person who is not exercising is basically neglecting their condition.

Now, when you add the numerous cognitive benefits to the equation, you would be crazy not to add some movements to your daily routine. Literally everything counts. I use every opportunity to increase my oxygen and blood flow - and I'm not surprised that the best ideas come when I'm not in front of my computer.

dav• 4 years ago

Exercise (and particularly strength as opposed to cardio) is now well established to reduce many aging related effects, including around cognition.

I suggest the book Defy Aging by Beth Bennett for a HN level deep dive into the science.

polskibus• 4 years ago

Apparently squats are great for mental abilities, compared to other types of exercise.

https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p09v8wyh/a-simple-exercise-th...

bob10292• 4 years ago

Back squats are amazing. If you want to recruit even more muscle groups, you can try front squats instead. These are typically a precursor/supporting exercise for olympic lifting.

ourmandave• 4 years ago

Ah, but what if regular expressions are the best cognitive exercise?

~ Regex email address validation committee

warner25• 4 years ago

Cal Newport talks quite a bit in his books (definitely Deep Work, but probably others too) about the linkage between walking or running and thinking creatively and solving hard problems.

In high school, I noted with curiosity that the cross country team had an extraordinary proportion of kids who excelled academically, going to top-tier colleges based on their academic merit alone. I chalked it up to an overlap between the traits required for both distance running and academic excellence: daily persistence, measured in hours, at something that doesn't involve a lot of action or cheering crowds. But there's probably more to it than that.

Military flight training is known to be like medical or law school for many people, spending all day memorizing technical manuals and regulations when not in the cockpit learning to fly. Despite military requirements for physical fitness, and the fact that officers need high fitness scores to get into flight school, many officers let their fitness slide in that environment. I found early on that making time for exercise had a very noticeable effect on my day-to-day performance, both in memorizing stuff and in the cockpit, and I rose to the top of my class. In particular, practicing golf (which involves a lot of finesse, but I also walked and carried my own bag) for a few holes after class every evening seemed to help with learning to execute precise maneuvers on the flight controls.

vegcel• 4 years ago

Werner Herzog: ‘The world reveals itself to those who travel on foot’

hprotagonist• 4 years ago

when brain is tired, go make meat tired too.

matai_kolila• 4 years ago

One thing I've learned over the years is to completely ignore anything you read on HN related to health and wellness...

Waterluvian• 4 years ago

The problem I have with the exercise community is that (usually unintentionally) they made it look complicated and expensive.

A 25 minute walk while listening to a podcast each day has done absolute wonders for everything in my life.

johnfn• 4 years ago

Haha, yeah. Free doesn't have much of a marketing budget. :)

lavp• 4 years ago

The author ignores the fact that we utilize a lot of computing power in training artificial intelligence.

Where exactly would 'learning' fit in this analogy?

caycecan• 4 years ago

Barbara Tversky's book "Mind in Motion" is a great read on how our minds are inextricable form locomotion will add tons of data and hypotheses to this idea https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Motion-Action-Shapes-Thought/dp/...

And yes her husband was Amos Tversky, co-author of "Thinking, Fast and Slow"

someweirdperson2• 4 years ago

The story is about the brain computing power needed for exercise, not the physical aspect. Obviously, different kinds of exercise require different computing power. Playing a musical instrument likely requires as much brain activity as physical exercise, without much of the physical part, and should work as well to keep the brain active.

90d• 4 years ago

This is so admirably true. My workout story started at 30. I spent one year doing pull ups, dips, push ups, squats.. various weight training as well. At a certain point I had improved my diet just to change my workouts. I want as many blessings to resonate through me from the universe as possible. I don't even have any preconceptions of what those will be; I have done my best to accept them. The effects of time under tension become remarkable for mental and cardiovascular health if you find a routine you enjoy. Start with a group, friend who goes, many non-national gyms will even have someone let you around if you call in.

For me it was the local park having some shaded calisthenics equipment. Do a search in your area!! There is no pressure there, its outside, there is people of course it improves you! It can teach you all you need to know for atleast 6 months to a year if you let it.

Anyone you come across will either not bother or be very friendly. Most commonly the regulars working out at these parks have a cool and unique mindset and would answer any workout question for you. After a year THEN try all that fancy stuff you would have possibly ego-lifted, struggled/injured yourself on. You will be amazed at your performance.

pstuart• 4 years ago

you want as many blessings to resonate through you from the universe as possible

That's a keeper.

adverbly2• 4 years ago

Interesting piece.

I've heard similar evidence in the past about how physical exercise is "good for the mind". If the author's reasoning about the computational requirements for motion are correct though, perhaps we need to do a bit of digging into why yoga/meditation is also supposedly quite "good for the mind", and yet they are significantly less complex from a motion standpoint than things such as martial arts/dancing/sports - which don't have the same reputation. Would love to see some research done though!

latchkey2• 4 years ago

I found that getting a dog and going for extended walks has been fantastic for my cognitive ability and general mood.

thesz3• 4 years ago

The stresses that make body need brains and grow these brains and nervous system as a whole, are stresses that were encountered during evolution: hunger, need to endure (long walk, long work) and need to apply force (run fast, lift heavy).

When body experience these three stresses it produces brain derived neutrotrophic factor [1], which acts as a growth hormone for nervous system as a whole and also grows brain, in areas related to long term memory, higher cognitive functions (language, logic, spatial navigation, etc) and learning.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-derived_neurotrophic_fac...

It works as if you can build "thinking muscles" which will help in every aspect of life.

E.g., if you barbell squat, you most probably will also run faster and you also will be more stable. Squats are not directly related to running, but they help nevertheless.

If you do endurange training and/or intermittent fasting, you will be more cognitively capable. Endurance training is not directly related to thinking, but it helps nevertheless.

So, yes.

An exercise for general purpose thinking is an exercise.

tinktank• 4 years ago

Have there been any studies on quantitative effects? If I wanted to increase my IQ 1 point how much exercise should I be doing?

tomjakubowski2• 4 years ago

I don't know about exercise, but an easy way to increase your IQ score is to take the test repeatedly.

vasco• 4 years ago

None where you get hit in the head. Curious to see martial arts where you can get punched in the face anywhere near "good for brain" discussions.

thesz3• 4 years ago

Here's one study amongst many: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.0261...

"Results: ...Groups of moderate (≈40) and high (≈49) fitness outperformed the group of low (≈31) fitness for inhibition and episodic recognition, whereas no significant differences between moderate and high fitness were observed (ANCOVAs). Breakpoints between benefits from VO2max for inhibition and recognition were estimated to ≈44/43 mL·kg−1·min−1 (multivariate broken line regressions)."

Be a moderately fit, at the very least.

Resistance training will reduce side effects of endurance training (muscle loss and hormone profile) and also would help reduce all cause mortality: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2453303/

If you would like to live long and be smart, walk (jog, run) and hit the gym. ;)

Actually, I found that searching for the balance is a congitive test in itself. It can be said that the way you solve it describes and defines you.

mrwh• 4 years ago

For me, I feel best running a couple of times a week. More than that and it becomes fatiguing, less and I feel heavier, my back plays up, etc. I say running, I mean jogging, and not seriously either, just a couple of miles around the neighborhood. While I've no idea whether this is the actual physiological effect, it does feel like an internal power wash of sorts.

As I write this, a family jogs past. It's rather sweet.

dehrmann• 4 years ago

Recent advances in AI, and less recent advances in computing in general showed that a lot of the things we consider “cognitively hard”...can be reproduced by computer machinery a lot simpler than we originally thought...
Robots still have a hard time navigating terrain and manipulating stuff

I actually think you're seeing the same thing. The way DALL-E screws up important details is the same as how self-driving cars work perfectly fine 99% of the time. The devil is in the details.

Py-o7• 4 years ago

There's a lot of literature on various kinds of cardio (esp HIIT and 'zone 2') and lactate production -> BDNF which is loosely understood to be very important for your brain.

Some more recent stuff on myokine release (from strength or cardio training) and warding off cognitive decline. Similar with training your balance (a parameter in exercise that is often forgotten).

More speculatively: crosswords and sudoku seem fine, but what about something much more cognitively demanding like doing serious mathematics?

przemub• 4 years ago

I read it as "regular expression". God help me.

Quixotica1• 4 years ago

I try to exercise 3 days a week and can say it dramatically improves my mental performance as well as my overall disposition. Always find it sad when people are against exercise and at the same time seem like they could really even fit from the emotional psychological boost

throwaway4good• 4 years ago

I think modern AI or for that matter engineering is fairly broken model for how the human brain or the human body works; and lead to these silly conclusions: It is easy to make a machine that adds two numbers therefor adding numbers cannot be "cognitive hard". Likewise it is easy to make a machine that runs fast, lifts a heavy object or stands one leg therefore ...

As for the most challenging activity for keeping sharp at old age: My guess is directly interacting with other people.

But if you think lifting weights work for you, then I am not going to argue against you.

rosstex2• 4 years ago

Reminder for Hacker News readers to step outside more than once a month so you can realize this naturally instead of applying your booksmart brains to reinvent things that most people not glued to their screens already know.

teej• 4 years ago

It was once widely believed that for the body to be healthy, it needed the right balance of “humors”: black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood. That was partially right, but mostly wrong. We don’t believe that model any more.

It’s always valuable to reassess common knowledge. That is the heart of human progress.

rosstex2• 4 years ago

Even so, the number of people in the comments asking for book recommendations on fitness and nutrition shows that many people here would rather cling to their comfort zone of digging deeper. You can re-evaluate words on paper all day, but it will never, ever compare to the understanding you get from actually trying the thing you want to understand.

krmboya• 4 years ago

The inclination towards reductionism by the more intellectually-minded folk.

We want to isolate a small chunk of a phenomenon and understand it really well, but in the process divorce it from its context.

We analyse cognitive performance in terms of a few isolated carefully selected variables rather than acknowledge that it is dependent many other variables present in its environment - physical, emotional, social

Good for developing expertise in a narrow domain, but perhaps not so good for developing a balanced worldview

ciconia• 4 years ago

I don't do any workout at all. Nevertheless, I'm very physically active. I work from home, and in general I set my own schedule. Whenever I want, I can open the door, go out, work some in the garden, build something, or do any of the house chores - doing the dishes, making bread, cooking something, fixing something. It keeps me on my feet basically the whole day long.

I've been doing this every single day for the last few months, and it just feels so good, so satisfying. I feel sharp, in form, physically content. I also feel it gives me a solid emotional center, a calmness and a deep feeling of connection to the moment.

Madmallard• 4 years ago

What is a surprise to literally no one...

Exercise improves blood flow which improves cognition. It's not complicated at all whatsoever.

soheil• 4 years ago

I first read that as “what if regular expressions are the best cognitive exercise?” and found it much more interesting.

wly_cdgr2• 4 years ago

Exercise can also directly develop job-relevant skills. I've learned a fair amount about project management from my long distance running. And I don't think the idea that team sports teach you to collaborate and lead more effectively in your day job is at all surprising or controversial. As programmers it should be easy for us to see that these are just different instances of the same class.

alfor• 4 years ago

Infrared too.

Infrared from the sun penetrate the skull and prevent inflammation in the brain. The effect is reduced dementia in people tha go outside. The infrared is reflected by the plants and thus walking in the shade of tree give increase of infrared exposure.

It affect every cell of our body (mitochondria in fact)

(Our biology has not evolved inside)

wisty• 4 years ago

Recent advances in AI, and less recent advances in computing in general showed that a lot of the things we consider “cognitively hard” - from symbolic manipulation to arithmetic, “drawing” and even reasoning - can be reproduced by computer machinery a lot simpler than we originally thought, at a (likely) higher than human level in the near future Robots still have a hard time navigating terrain and manipulating stuff

...

So, here’s the speculation / thesis: exercising, that is, operating our bodies at a higher than baseline level, with everything that entails - energy regulation, unconscious balancing, spatial awareness, etc - requires more computing power than crosswords, sudoku, finding relations between measure theory and first-order logic through category theory, etc

I don't buy it. Stuff like "navigating terrain" is something that insects can do often better than robots. It's simply not that hard for animals, which have specialised hardware for this (but on the flipside we lack hardware IEEE compliant floating point units).

Exercise is good because the brain is an organ, and general health is good for organs. And because of psychological factors. General and mental health have a huge impact on cognitive performance.

Cognitive training is not particularly effective because it's a lot of wistful thinking and snake oil (there might be something to it, but I've seen little evidence that it's particularly effective especially when it comes to transfer).

There probably is some cognitive benefit to exercise. Decision making under pressure, discipline, spatial awareness, etc and there would be some transfer to related domains. But I suspect the main effect is just health (which both is better for cognitive performance, and encourages other activities which are good for cognitive performance).

c7b• 4 years ago

The question is, what is the exercise for? We already know from studies that there's very little transfer even between logic-related tasks (say, Sudoku and Chess), so what sort of carry-over could we expect from fitness to logic-related tasks?

I guess the answer will be something like: if you want to be a good programmer in old age, your best preparation is to program a lot and regularly. If you want to be a good mathematician, chess player,...., practice those. If you want to have a healthy body in old age, your best prep is regular exercise. You can do more than one, of course, but you can't substitute one for another.

Beaver117• 4 years ago

If exercise is so important, why are people not driven to exercise like they are driven to eat, sleep, and have sex? Despite so much research about the benefits most people do not exercise.

infinite8s• 4 years ago

The nature of most of human existence was manual labor, which obviates the need for separate exercise.

snowwrestler• 4 years ago

The brain is cognitively efficient for physical movements and situations you experience regularly. We experience this subjectively as opportunities to “zone out” or let our thoughts wander as we do the activity. If you run the same route regularly, after a few dozen times you’re probably not thinking much about the running itself anymore.

People learning new activities experience it as the activity “slowing down” subjectively as they learn, giving them more comfort and greater opportunity to think about further improvements. For example learning to ride a bike requires intense thought. But once you know how to ride a bike, it just happens and you can think about where you’re going, or whether you’re in the right aerobic zone, or how fast to take the next jump, etc.

So I would bet that to optimize the cognitive benefit of physical activity, it needs to be somewhat novel. Running on a treadmill or swimming in the same pool or lifting weights in the same gym over and over probably would not do it. You’d need some sort of sport (where other players are constantly creating novel situations) or an outdoor sport where natural conditions are always changing. Or frequently trying new sports or activities.

WR-Iso• 4 years ago

i am right there with you our "like minded" individuals are gaining traction and so far this true every thing for me is backwards on this upside down inverted reallity of actuallity

mik09• 4 years ago

Socrates love the gym, I cannot recall the exact remarks he said on it but something like this: https://www.artofmanliness.com/health-fitness/fitness/manvot...

Graham (inventor of Graham's number) also juggles quite well. A lot of mathematicians climb. His friend, Erdos do not exercise as much afaik from reading his biography (takes amphetamine...)

Fire-Dragon-DoL• 4 years ago

I will sound negative on purpose, I wish to be wrong.

Everything so far in my life seems to be "if you want to be good at something, do that thing repeatedly, or the parts that compose that thing, repeatdly". It makes sense. So why would this be any different, wouldn't use your brain to learn, be the best cognitive exercise?

amai• 4 years ago

Why then are professional athletes rarely Nobel prize winners?

What if regular exercise is the best cognitive exercise?

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