Intel says one of its 13th Gen CPUs will hit 6GHz out of the box

https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/12/23348620/intel-13th-gen-cpus-raptor-lake-6ghz-stock-8ghz-overclocked

by Tomte • 4 years ago

222 451 4 years ago

theverge.com

tambourine_man2• 4 years ago

For a whole minute before throttling.

Warning: required power station not included.

hu33• 4 years ago

Properly cooled workstations don't throttle, ever.

I run simulations which use 100% of all cores for endless hours.

You just gotta use a decent thermal paste and cooling fan. In my case it's water cooling so I don't even hear the fans.

tambourine_man2• 4 years ago

Warning: small lake required for proper cooling not included

aaaaaaaaaaab2• 4 years ago

At what TDP?

awestroke• 4 years ago

No more than 1kW

api• 4 years ago

Even if that were true, there'd be a niche for these. There are still tasks for which single threaded performance dominates.

Not sure it'd be a big enough niche to save Intel's market share though.

andy_ppp2• 4 years ago

Nice and cheap for us Europeans!

dougmwne2• 4 years ago

You can also boil water for tea while you game!

uni_rule• 4 years ago

It seems that if you don't opt for AMD on AMD this new generation of PCs will be absolute toaster ovens.

cyber_kinetist3• 4 years ago

AMD is also in the process of being a toaster oven. The new Ryzen 9 7950x will use considerably higher power (105W -> 170W) for a smaller die area, which is making people worry about air-powered cooling being not enough (previously a Noctua D15 was enough to cool a 5950x). And I really don't want high-end CPUs to require water cooling since it's more unreliable and requires more maintenance.

paulmd6• 4 years ago

those are base-clock TDPs not the boost TDPs (which AMD calls a PPT) too... it's 170W base/230W boost power, and those chips are allowed to boost for an unlimited duration (which of course has pluses and minuses).

throwabro747• 4 years ago

7950x will use considerably higher power (105W -> 170W)

The 5950X uses 180W at full load. Some measure as high as 230W. The 105W figure reported as "TDP" was a mistake.

Not sure why the specs were a big lie but this is well documented online.

air-powered cooling being not enough

If you want to turbo to 4.1GHz or better on all cores on the 5950X, you have to spend about $60 on a cooler - water or air. The AIOs perform well. A big AIO will give you 4.5GHz. No turbo air cooling - 3.4GHz - is a waste of money.

eyegor• 4 years ago

There's a small silver lining in that you can set hard power limits in the bios and amd claims it's still ~15% faster when limited to 105w. It would be nice if they just left it at that but it makes them look worse in benchmarks against Intel since most people won't check the power consumption.

halikular• 4 years ago

Since noctua nh d15 air cooling has been on par or surpassing any aio and even all but the high end custom loops. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeQX1uhb0iQ

PragmaticPulp8• 4 years ago

Intel CPUs have better idle power consumption that even the latest Ryzen CPUs. It caught me off guard when I switched from Intel to AMD and the idle draw of my PC went up by a significant amount.

Given that our computers spend more time idle than at 100% peak load, my AMD CPU draws more power (and therefore heats up my room) more then my Intel setup. That wasn’t an outcome I was expecting, but then again I was only looking at peak, not idle, numbers at the time.

I really hope AMD can start bringing their idle power consumption down in this next gen.

pizza2344• 4 years ago

Can you give some details (components and consumption)? I'm interested in the topic, and I've done some wall measurements as well, in the past and present.

Dalewyn4• 4 years ago

Over in Japan, Intel CPUs are sometimes fondly(?) called Idlemaster, which is a pun and reference to Idolmaster[1], for their superior idling performance. :V

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Idolmaster

neogodless7• 4 years ago

In Ryzen Master, my Ryzen 9 5900X is showing 11-13W CPU Power, 17W SOC Power.

It's largely idle, just lots of background stuff/open programs (VS Code, Discord, Excel, Firefox, Teams, Edge, MySQL Workbench, Thunderbird, Messenger, Outlook.)

PPT is 30% of 142W = 42.6 W. (Not sure what PPT stands for.)

EDIT: https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3491-explaining-precision...

Package Power Tracking (“PPT”): The PPT threshold is the allowed socket power consumption permitted across the voltage rails supplying the socket.

adgjlsfhk1• 4 years ago

IIUC, this is mainly because the IO die was made on 14nm. With Zen 4 moving to 7nm for IO die, I think lower idle power draw is expected. We'll see by how much soon.

rhn_mk1• 4 years ago

Does this apply also to laptop parts?

ridgered4• 4 years ago

This is true, it seems like the infinity fabric limits how low AMD cpus can idle. Intel invested pretty heavily in power saving tech during their 4 core

One other thing that hurts AMD here was the x570 chipset. It seems to be a hack job, basically installing the I/O from the CPU upside down and running it as a chipset. IIRC it uses like double the wattage of the x470 chipset it replaced.

xani_7• 4 years ago

I see the same thing in Intel vs AMD servers, AMDs are like 3x the power on idle

kllrnohj4• 4 years ago

It seems quite unlikely that the idle power draw difference between Intel and AMD is doing anything at all to your room. The chiplet design is hurting AMD's idle power, but it's still going to be far from a "large" difference. Your monitor is probably using more power than an idling Ryzen CPU is.

jeffbee3• 4 years ago

Intel power scaling works very well. My 12th-gen 12700K says its is drawing 660mW at the moment, and its complete silence is consistent with that estimate. If there's some power level that you prefer, you can just enter it in the BIOS and leave it that way.

Personally, I do not pretend that CPUs are light bulbs. If my CPU could draw 1000W for 10ms and that made short tasks like web page rendering twice as fast, that's a trade I would happily take. The short-term power consumption of CPUs is pure benefit to the user, and the rarer sustained tasks that run all the cores flat out for more than 1 second are always going to level off at about 125W because of the long-term cooling situation.

mxaltern• 4 years ago

When are we getting good alternative to M1?

mugivarra69• 4 years ago

probably never.

wongarsu• 4 years ago

When you buy AMD instead of Intel.

yabqk• 4 years ago

AMD is worse in every regard

mmsnberbar66• 4 years ago

https://asahilinux.org/

dancemethis• 4 years ago

A fork called Fandaniel Linux is sorely needed. It doesn't even need to have anything.

neogodless7• 4 years ago

If battery life is what you're after, looking at a 1.5 generation (soon to be 2.5) old 35W Ryzen that gets 11 hours of battery life should give you clues. Ryzen 7000 mobile should be announced in January, and those will utilize TSMC 5nm.

https://www.laptopmag.com/features/how-amd-ryzen-whooped-int...

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ryzen-4900hs-battery-l...

Or 0.5 generation ago 15W Ryzen getting 17-20 hours...

https://youtu.be/An3OpQ7v0rs?t=546

stardude9002• 4 years ago

Wow, Raptor Lake's max TDP looks to be 253W. That's crazy high https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-13th-gen-raptor-lake...

SketchySeaBeast4• 4 years ago

Between this and the ridiculous TDP expectations for this generations latest graphic cards people are going to have to start thinking about using dedicated circuits per gaming computer.

fartsucker69• 4 years ago

who cares about these russian gas problems. I will have to throttle my cpu so it doesn't get too hot in winter

izzydata• 4 years ago

And also use the heat from their PC to boil water and then spin a turbine to generate electricity to sell back to the grid.

JustFinishedBSG2• 4 years ago

Already there in Europe... I actually prefer getting the Steamdeck out than turning the main computer on for "light" games.

rjbwork2• 4 years ago

I actually did this...I got two dedicated circuits put into my room - one for the window unit AC (no point in cooling the whole house when I really just need to cool this room most of the time), and one for my gaming computer. My work laptop, lights, etc. are all on the original main circuit of the house.

A friend of mine is an electrician so the price was very reasonable, and it has been worth it, especially during this hot summer.

PragmaticPulp8• 4 years ago

Not really even close. Even with a 235W CPU and a theoretical 600W GPU you wouldn’t actually exceed even half the capacity of a single 15A circuit in synthetic benchmarks that stress the system beyond real-world loads.

404mm2• 4 years ago

This is the definition of “working smart vs. working hard”. Not everything about the CPU needs to be solved by pushing it to the limits of physics. TDP is not linear relative to CPU freq.

hotpotamus• 4 years ago

I had a LAN party at my house in 2012 and one lunatic brought his 1KW+ PC and tripped a breaker which has seemed really twitchy ever since.

pentae2• 4 years ago

It certainly makes building Mini ITX a lot more interesting when you're trying to get the sweet spot for performance to thermals/noise ratio.

I did a nCase M1 build recently and my objective for the build was small as possible, quiet as possible, and as powerful as possible in that order. I still ended up with a pretty powerful machine by going with an i3-12100 instead of an i5/i7 which uses much less power and puts out less heat. The RTX 3080 reference card was the biggest card that could fit into the case which I undervolted.

A lot of people are undervolting their RTX GPU's because for an only about a ~3% performance loss you get about 10C less temp which translates to far less fan noise. I don't know why Nvidia doesn't just have a one click button for people.

nCase unfortunately have discontinued this case based on 'market factors' which I suspect means that they don't anticipate things to be getting smaller and cooler any time soon.

mox1• 4 years ago

For those of you unaware, most households in the USA have 15amp circuits for their wall plugs. With that you can safely pull about 1200Watts constantly.

I am unsure what the normal household circuit amperage is in the EU or elsewhere...

Teknoman117• 4 years ago

I popped the breaker when I accidentally connected my gaming computer and my car charger (plug-in hybrid) to the same circuit.

Probably would've been fine if it were a 20A circuit and not a 15A, but it did remind me how much power these things draw...

Or with power in SF averaging 40-ish cents per kWh a standard evening gaming session can easily cost a non-negligible amount of money.

gwbas1c2• 4 years ago

Ironically, I have a printer that really needs a dedicated circuit. When it warms up the toner, it draws 12 amps for 1-2 seconds.

Printing often pops the breaker. I had to move the printer out of my home office into a bedroom, but even then we've popped the breaker when printing while vacuuming.

(It's not a case of bad wiring, either.)

thehappypm2• 4 years ago

253W is only 2 amps in the US, thats like 10-20% of a breaker’s capacity

xani_7• 4 years ago

...no. Average EU circuit is 230V/16A, that's 3.6kW

Even if you ran 1kW (...somehow) you could still connect 3 of them and still have 600W left for audio/monitors.

irthomasthomas• 4 years ago

So, almost 25c an hour at EU electric prices.

onlyrealcuzzo• 4 years ago

Or <$0.04 in the US and in most of the EU under normal circumstances.

404mm2• 4 years ago

Coin operated Game systems lol. We have come in the whole circle.

cypress662• 4 years ago

Is eu electricity really 1 dollar per kwh?

PragmaticPulp8• 4 years ago

It sounds high, but we’ve had plenty of AMD and Intel workstation CPUs with even higher TDPs for a long time. Overclockers have also routinely pushed well past that number.

235W is well within the range of what a decent air cooler like the Noctua NH-D15 can handle without excessive fan noise.

JustFinishedBSG2• 4 years ago

Justifying the off-the-shelves TDP of new GPUs/CPUs by saying it's still lower than what overclockers reach is the same as saying a car doing 50L/100KM is completely fine because an M1 Abraham uses 2000L/100KM offroad.

hinkley4• 4 years ago

Wasn’t the top of the line DEC Alpha drawing 200 watts at one point?

wyager• 4 years ago

My i9-12900k hovers right around 250W TDP with no overclocking or anything. If you keep it under 100C it's happy to do so.

jeffbee3• 4 years ago

Just to clarify for the audience, there is nothing you can do within reason that will cause your CPU to ever self-heat above 100°. They manage their own power to stay below their maximum design junction temperature, less a safety margin. Even if you ran it without a heat sink, it will not run above 100°. It just won't run very well or very often.

ajross• 4 years ago

That's not a TDP, which is a sustained metric (originally designed for board/cooling design integration) and shows 125W for that part. The 250W number is a new thing they're calling "Processor Boost Power" and I guess it's intended to represent some kind of "maximum short term draw" number. That's not something that's been historically reported for other parts, so it's kinda wrong to try to compare them 1:1.

paulmd6• 4 years ago

intel's following AMD and introducing a "PPT" terminology for the boost value, since they routinely get compared against AMD's (non-boost) TDP values.

even in this thread you see people saying "wow intel pulls 250W against AMD's 105W processors"... when the comparable PPT number for AMD this generation is actually 230W, and their previous-gen number was 145W.

It's a huge marketing disadvantage, just like with node naming for fabs. Intel's 14nm is hugely better than GF 14/12nm or TSMC 16/12nm, and 10ESF is comparable to TSMC 7nm (although much later ofc). When the competitors are playing marketing games, to some extent you just have to start playing them too.

Desktop/HEDT TDPs used to pretty much cover boost clocks, the "tau" concept always officially existed but (eg) 5960X has a 143W idle-to-prime95 power delta as measured by Anandtech, so, the 140W tdp is pretty much sufficient to cover any "normal" non-prime95 AVX load at full boost clock. Similarly 4770K is a 85W TDP on paper and the measured idle-to-prime95 is 88W. Overclocked desktop loads could go higher of course, but most people overrode tau limits anyway in those cases. So in practice, tau limit was pretty much only a thing that existed on laptops in the intel world, because there was always enough TDP available to cover boost clocks, in a stock configuration.

https://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph8426/67026.png

Then AMD came along with Ryzen and started marketing around base TDPs, and made their boost TDP this other higher number (but it's not a boost TDP guys, it's, uh, PPT, yeah!!!!)... and allowed it to boost to the higher number for an unlimited period of time. 9-series really started pushing it and Tau limits started becoming a problem, but it looks really bad to have a 145W TDP when the competition has 105W... even if it's the same actual power consumption in practive. So over time Intel more or less had to move to the same "TDP/PPT" concept as AMD.

It's really really noxious in laptops where AMD allows processors to boost to 50% (more than the desktop chips even!) above their configured TDP for an unlimited period of time. Yeah partners get to pick the cTDP for the particular laptop, but either way an AMD chip with a 15W cTDP gets to use 50% more power than an Intel with a 15W cTDP, for an unlimited duration, which is a huge functional advantage... basically a 15W AMD laptop is more comparable to a 25W Intel laptop in terms of power draw, and a 25W AMD will pull more power than a 35W Intel. So they move themselves up a whole power bracket through The Magic Of Technical Marketing (tm).

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16084/Power%20-%2015W%20Co...

hulitu5• 4 years ago

Just in time for the winter.

STRML• 4 years ago

Looks like that's just for the 5.4GHz chip. To hit 6GHz, it's probably going to be this 350W (!!!) turbo mode.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-raptor-lake-to-featu...

m12k• 4 years ago

All these power hungry beasts coming out of Intel and NVIDIA feel quite out of sync with the zeitgeist in a world that's worried about the power bill - especially when the M1/M2 is there to provide contrast. I'm getting Pentium 4 vs Core architecture vibes.

nimbius• 4 years ago

arguably it was the same thirst for electricity that was the killing stroke for most of the POWER architecture. that, and IBM contract fees.

omegalulw• 4 years ago

I would say that people who regularly invest in top end hardware don't care as much about power bills. Otherwise power efficient chips is the norm (laptops, phones, etc).

PragmaticPulp8• 4 years ago

All these power hungry beasts coming out of Intel and NVIDIA feel quite out of sync with the zeitgeist in a world that's worried about the power bill -

These CPUs aren't consuming 250W all the time. Those are peak numbers.

Both Intel and AMD are providing huge efficiency gains, too. Rumors show the new i7 13700T Raptor Lake part can have a 35W mobile TDP and still outperform a Ryzen 7 5800X: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-13700t-raptor-lake-a...

Speed scales nonlinearly with power. These high TDP parts are halo parts meant for enthusiast builds where it doesn't matter that the machine draws a lot of power for an hour or two of gaming.

It's also trivially easy to turn down the maximum power limit in the BIOS if that's what someone wants. The power consumption isn't a fixed feature of the CPU. It's a performance/power tradeoff that can be adjusted at use time.

crisdux2• 4 years ago

If you consider the mainstream products of Intel and Nvidia, they have way more moderate power consumption. These products with massive power draw are ultra enthusiast products. They are an outlier. You could build a great PC now with a RTX 3060 and a mainstream CPU that would be fine with a 500~ watt PSU.

As technologists, we should support manufacturers pushing the limit in power and performance. It helps drive overall efficiency and move technology forward.

babypuncher5• 4 years ago

In Intel's case, they need to push these insane TDPs in order to even dream of performance parity with AMD and Apple. All those years spinning their wheels on 14nm+++++++++++ are biting them in the ass.

neals• 4 years ago

I don't know, we found Helium-3 on the moon this week, so I think it might be fine.

agumonkey• 4 years ago

netburst was the first thing that came to mind

xani_7• 4 years ago

They are in development for years, not last 6 months

bee_rider2• 4 years ago

I wonder what % of the overall power bill a PC actually consumes. My gut would say it doesn't compare, really, to the water heater or air conditioner, but it would be good to see numbers.

justapassenger• 4 years ago

Power consumption is an issue, but worrying about CPUs of a gaming machine is like worrying about straws in the context of the pollution.

Electricity needs of an average household in western world are going to increase a lot in coming decades, with transition to more electric heating, cooking, cars, etc. Gaming machine power usage is minuscule compared to those.

pdntspa3• 4 years ago

Wow... my whole desktop setup, with 3 screens, a 7-year-old intel CPU, a gaming GPU, and a grip of hard drives is showing a draw of 143W right now, up to 289W under stress (prime95). 235W just for the CPU is nuts.

jotm2• 4 years ago

TBF the performance per watt is also nuts. 7 year old is Haswell-Skylake (same performance mostly)?

Alder Lake impresses me, but Ryzen is the better choice because f Intel heh

walrus01• 4 years ago

These designs pretty much demand a setup with a water cooling loop implemented via radiator sized for two 140mm fans (280 mm length).

Thankfully all-in-one kits for that which are pre filled and sealed are much more commonplace than they used to be, and even fairly cheap midtower ATX cases I see on newegg in the $60-70 range will have a top panel mounting place for a 280mm radiator.

And definitely any "gaming" marketed ATX case above that price range will have the capability for it.

You possibly could get away with a 240mm length radiator (dual 120mm fans) on something like this but I really wouldn't recommend it, and the savings for an AIO kit would be only $50-60.

From the perspective of noise annoyance, fan pitch and sound is somewhat proportional to size. 140mm fans can be a lot quieter and move more air than 120mm with less perceptible noise to the human sitting next to it.

Higher end stuff will be implemented by 360mm length radiator (3 x 140mm) which I am pleasantly surprised to see not ridiculously priced ATX cases having options mounting now.

I would figure you have to budget an additional $150-200 on top of the CPU cost for a capable water cooling loop setup. Which is not absolutely ridiculous considering that a really good skived copper heatsink/heatpipe/fan setup for pure air cooling on a 130W TDP CPU could easily be $65.

jmyeet• 4 years ago

I look forward to TSMC fabbing it for them.

In all seriousness, hasn't Intel been hanging on to their current architecture for way too long at this point? IIRC Ryzen consumes less power and does more per Watt on the high end and ARM is eating them up on the low end. It feels like Intel is just trying to squeeze out a little more from a much-delayed 10nm process and their existing architecture.

It sort of reminds me of Pentium 4 just outstaying its welcome.

Genuinely curious: what's on the horizon for Intel as their next big change and not something that's just a marketing clock speed boost?

happycube• 4 years ago

They finally started moving forward in the 11th gen, where they backported the core originally meant to 10nm to 14nm. 12th gen had a nice IPC boost, pity they didn't keep AVX512 enabled IMO.

atty• 4 years ago

Current architecture, no - this big+little architecture just started with the last generation, like a year ago I think? However, if you mean process node, then yes, I think this is on the same one they’ve been using for awhile. But they have 2-3 more nodes coming in the next 3-4 years. If they don’t screw those up, they should be ok. That’s a big if, though.

They’re also changing to a chiplet-based architecture with their next Xeon line which will be interesting.

mhh__5• 4 years ago

Arm is absolutely nowhere. Apple are very good but that's not an arm design.

Also you're wrong, it's really not an existing architecture unless you talk in extremely broad strokes.

whoomp123423• 4 years ago

how on earth does this not melt all matter in the known universe?

forgive my laymen knowledge, I am just a humble software person but isn't the equation of power -> speed exponential which is why CPU speeds clocked out around 4ghz and we moved to multi core processing? what sorcery exists that lets us suddenly break that barrier?

jhickok• 4 years ago

Lots and lots and lots of energy. The tdp of my first i7-920 was 95 watts, and rumors are this new Intel chip will clock in almost 3x higher.

jeffbee3• 4 years ago

This processor's TDP will likely be 125W just like its predecessor and the generation before that and the generation before that, too. It's a practical design point that desktop cases, coolers, and motherboard power circuitry can hit.

jlpom• 4 years ago

Power = Capacitance * Voltage ^2 * frequency ; not exponential

whoomp123423• 4 years ago

thank you! I just had a simple graph in my head. Now that there is something I can conceptualize, is it :

Power = Capacitance * Voltage ^(2 * frequency)

Power = Capacitance * (Voltage ^2) * frequency

2OEH8eoCRo0• 4 years ago

Why do we focus so much on TDP or max boost? How often and for how long are you running your CPU at max? I'd like to have the performance there when I need it but for most of the day I am sitting near idle.

dagw• 4 years ago

How often and for how long are you running your CPU at max?

On my workstation? 8-16 hours at a stretch is common, several times a week.

vlovich123• 4 years ago

What are you doing that’s pegging your CPU at 100% for 8-16 hours? Or do you just turn off throttling?

noobermin2• 4 years ago

Yes, this will only be useful for servers, workstations, and performance nodes. I heavy doubt this will be useful for generic home computing any time soon.

devwastaken• 4 years ago

CPU temps will spike, computer turns into revving jet engine. Opening a program is all it takes. Shouldn't have to have the biggest noctua cooler on the market to keep a CPU below 90C. They're meant to be quiet.

pc86• 4 years ago

Kind of hard to say they're "meant to be quiet" if opening a program is all it takes to make them... not quiet.

rowanG077• 4 years ago

Daily for a couple of hours at least. TDP max is basically the only interesting metric. Because this is what you have to design your power delivery and cooling for. Average TDP is only interesting for your energy bill.

pizza2344• 4 years ago

TDP is correlated with consumption, so a higher TDP is indicative of how much the CPU will burn in general.

formerly_proven4• 4 years ago

Completely false, idle and low load power consumption has little to do with TDP. Case in point: Ryzen

lm28469• 4 years ago

big numbers good. we need big numbers. big numbers better than small numbers. big numbers please monkey brain. monkey brain happy = more sales = more money = bigger number in bank. bigger number in bank good

bhedgeoser2• 4 years ago

Seriously, reading semiconductor news these days feels like watching dragon ball z. I won't even be surprised if someone announced a cpu that runs at over 9000MHz.

babypuncher5• 4 years ago

I collect and rip Blu-Rays. Whenever I buy something big (like a complete TV series box set), it usually means my 5900x will be churning away in Handbrake non stop for a few days straight. It makes my basement a bit toasty.

peheje• 4 years ago

Want to be friends?

DaiPlusPlus• 4 years ago

But given that space is cheap and transcoding means you're necessarily compromising image quality, why bother re-encoding?

notdarkyet• 4 years ago

Which drive are you currently using? I bought the external Archgon drive but never got to the flashing part.

bpodgursky• 4 years ago

HN is full of Intel bears / AMD bulls so they're going to latch onto whatever they can complain about.

mhh__5• 4 years ago

Almost no one is capable of the nuance to actually compare these on real workloads without buying one.

eminence32• 4 years ago

I would be pretty amazed if this 6ghz "stock" clock can be achieved with just air cooling.

exciteabletom• 4 years ago

I'm sure a big air cooler like the Noctua NH-D15 would be enough to stop throttling.

Maybe Intel will include a beefier stock cooler in the box?

cyber_kinetist3• 4 years ago

Intel's stock coolers were always a joke and people usually switched it out for something else. It might be good for them to bring some decent stock coolers to the entry-mid level models like what AMD does.

But really doesn't make sense including a stock cooler for the i9 lineup though, since that monster of a CPU will defeat probably every mid-level air cooler and would require a beefy Noctua or something similar...

PragmaticPulp8• 4 years ago

Modern air coolers are extremely performant. The popular Noctua NH-D15 can handle these TDPs and more without problem, and has been available for years.

ep103• 4 years ago

Wait, what? I've been researching this lately, and have been coming to the conclusion that the NH-D15 can NOT handle peak head from intel's 12700k.

The NH-D15's max cooling ability is slightly beneath the 12700k's max thermal output. So if you're running a 12700k, you can get away with it, because the liklihood that you're running the 12700k at max thermal output for long periods of time are pretty slim, and if you're running under max, then you're covered.

I don't remember TDP numbers off the top of my head, but if the 13700 is a significantly higher thermal output, and its going to be in the same case as the next gen video cards with their higher output? That doesn't seem feasible for the NH-D15 anymore

Sohcahtoa823• 4 years ago

Heck, I have a cheap Coolermaster air cooler (I think it was $30) on my i9-9900K. I've run Prime95's max heat torture test on all 8 cores and my CPU will hover around 65 C, well below the thermal throttle threshold.

Razengan• 4 years ago

Intel still playing the GHz game, not having learned anything from the Pentium 4?

whoomp123423• 4 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpMvS1Q1sos

dougmwne2• 4 years ago

They are losing the process manufacturing game so need to make up the lost ground somewhere.

ColonelPhantom• 4 years ago

Golden Cove (Alder Lake) has been a massive uplift in performance-per-clock from the previous generations. This is also related to the fact that Intel was reiterating Skylake for most of the time until ADL, which itself is barely more than Sandy Bridge with a few generations of iterative tweaks. I believe Raptor Cove (what will be in 13th gen) is not that big of a change from Alder Lake; it's the same but with some refinements and mainly larger caches.

Furthermore, the P-core/E-core divide means that they can make the P-cores quite large and inefficient, as E-cores will pick up the heavily-threaded tasks. So while a Zen core is significantly smaller than a Golden Cove core, Gracemont is much smaller still.

mhh__5• 4 years ago

No, amd and intel are still lumping eachother over the head with IPC gains.

Alder lake was Intel's first proper response to Zen -> huge IPC boost

pkrumins• 4 years ago

Nice, that will be my next build!

Markoff• 4 years ago

I read headline as 60 GHz and raised my eyebrows, then I reread it as another non news. CPU tech is extremely boring last decades.

zuhsetaqi• 4 years ago

I wouldn’t say that. At least in the last years it way more exiting than before since AMD is competitive again and Apple does use ARM chips with a whole new tradeoff strategy. The only boring part is Intel IMO

jvanderbot• 4 years ago

My NUC ECE board can reach 5ghz. But I throttle all cores down to 3.2 GHz so it can run without the helicopter sounds from all the fans running full tilt. This sounds the same.

Eridrus• 4 years ago

Given the fact that x86 instructions are not generally completed in a single cycle, how much of this increased clock do we actually expect to translate into faster performance? Presumably we're not expecting a 50% performance increase here.

Denvercoder94• 4 years ago

X% higher clock gives X% better computation performance, regardless of the number of clock cycles each instruction takes.

wmf4• 4 years ago

Most x86 instructions do translate into a single uop that executes in a single cycle. Going from 5.5 to 6.0 GHz should be around 9% faster; maybe 10% with the larger L2.

retskrad• 4 years ago

Intel and AMD are waving the white flag. They're bowing to Apple and admitting that they can't compete in the laptop arena.

noobermin2• 4 years ago

How is this "waving the white flag." That usually signals defeat, this is an attempt to build hype.

r00fus• 4 years ago

Can you run this chip on a laptop? How will they hope to compete with Apple's M2Pro/Max?

Answer: they won't. It'll be like phone chips where Apple is 2+ years ahead of the game for perf/watt.

nottorp6• 4 years ago

It sounds like Samsung's marketing on the phone side. Wasn't there a time when they competed on having more cpu cores? And they were caught overclocking them when benchmarks were run, leading to power consumption and heat that was unsustainable in normal usage?

At least Intel is doing this with a desktop CPU. If you can afford the electricity bill generated by said GPU and the A/C to cool the room.

neogodless7• 4 years ago

This comment is a bit like saying Telsa is admitting they cannot compete in entry level electric cars because they announced the Cybertruck's maximum performance figures.

Meanwhile, 9 out of 10 laptops sold... contain Intel or AMD chips (or presumably Qualcomm), rather than Apple Silicon.

https://macdailynews.com/2022/01/31/apple-takes-10-share-of-...

Now if the question was... is Apple Silicon much more efficient... than an enthusiast level desktop CPU?

GeekyBear• 4 years ago

Welcome back to the failed Pentium 4 strategy.

Raptor Lake to Offer ‘Unlimited Power’ Mode for Those Who Don’t Care About Heat, Electric Bills

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/338748-raptor-lake-to-...

MuffinFlavored• 4 years ago

It's true that like... naturally throughout production some chips have better "silicon" (for lack of better terms/words) and some have worse, leading some to get marked as lower frequency chips (because otherwise if you turn the clock speed/power/heat up too much on them, they don't perform as well/have errors due to... mild defects in manufacturing?)

Am I understanding that correctly or butchering it?

Like how would you describe the fact that not all chips Intel producers will be able to hit 6GHz+?

ender341341• 4 years ago

I think more just the fall into "We're having trouble scaling performance with sane power usage, so just amp up the power usage" as to what was referenced as the Pentium 4 strategy. What you described is called binning and as far as I'm aware everyone does it (for example nvidia's founders editions tend to be the higher quality chips, causing 3rd party cards to not always overclock as well as older generations).

xani_7• 4 years ago

P4 was just plainly inferior architecture, this is not that. "Just" outdated one

fomine32• 4 years ago

Is it offered first? We can just set PL1/PL2 unlimited for older Intel CPUs.

ryanmarsh• 4 years ago

Literally halt and catch fire.

nottorp6• 4 years ago

... and will it be a 400 W cpu or a 600 W cpu?

Where have I seen this "more megahertz" strategy at Intel? Right, with the Pentium 4.

mastax3• 4 years ago

Relatedly...

One of the things I'm not happy about on my current machine (Ryzen 1800X, RTX 2070S) is the heat and noise. I'm going to invest in a better case and fans next time, but new hardware is trying to make the problem even worse. The new hardware is supposed to be very efficient if you limit the max power, but they don't make it easy to do.

From what I can tell the only way to change power limits and fan curves for CPU/GPU are either to reboot into BIOS or use multiple separate manufacturer's shitty bloated windows GUI utilities. AMD's Ryzen Master software is supposed to be good but it doesn't work at all if you have Hyper-V enabled which is basically mandatory for developers nowadays. My GPU's default fan curves have them turn on/off around typical idle desktop temperatures so they continuously cycle on/off and have worn out the bearings and now make a scraping noise every time they do this. The only way to fix this is to launch a bloated windows GUI utility every boot. I was surprised to not find an open source Linux library or kernel driver that lets you read and write fan speeds for GPU and motherboard controlled fans.

I want two things:

1. A simple, unobtrusive button in my system tray that lets me toggle power limits of my CPU and GPU from "silent" to "performance".

2. A simple, unobtrusive way to configure fan curves with averaging and hysteresis that, crucially, lets the case fan speeds be controlled by a combination of GPU and CPU temperatures.

As far as I know neither of those are possible today. I've considered buying or making a USB fan speed controller and even plugging my GPU fans into it because there's no other good way to control them.

strich• 4 years ago

So what you're after re fan control exists, in this bloody fantastic app: https://github.com/Rem0o/FanControl.Releases

mastax3• 4 years ago

I'll look into that, thanks! Too bad it's not open source, though.

cameronhowe• 4 years ago

I use this for my radeon RX 5700XT: https://gitlab.com/corectrl/corectrl You can use it for cpu as well, but i havent felt the need to fiddle with any settings there.

KronisLV2• 4 years ago

Currently using AMD Software Adrenalin Edition (on Windows): https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/software

Pretty average as far as bloat goes, ~150-200 MB of RAM used, about as much as JetBrains Toolbox takes up in the tray, or Mattermost, Discord or other apps like that.

Lets me switch between GPU power/fan profiles (Performance > Tuning) so I can run my GPU at 50% of its maximum power most of the time (as well as different fan curves), for longevity/noise related reasons, especially when dealing with badly optimized software/games.

The CPU just seems to do its own thing and throttles up/down based on system load, haven't really needed to tune it for any particular reason yet.

It's passable but you're right that things could be way better, more usable and user friendly! I guess in a way, when everything is bloated, nothing is. Wirth's law at its finest.

mastax3• 4 years ago

It can't control the speed of case fans though, no?

I suppose I don't care about memory usage for "bloat". I want it to be easy and pleasant to use, and to start quickly and unobtrusively. No 10 second long splash screen every time I boot.

mwint• 4 years ago

they continuously cycle on/off and have worn out the bearings

Does cycling a fan on/off wear bearings faster than being on all the time? Naively I would have assumed that bearing wear is a function of time enabled and speed, with # of spinups a negligible factor.

twblalock• 4 years ago

I have found it much more difficult to tune fan curves for quiet operation on Ryzen than on Intel chips. There are frequent short surges in fan speed, presumably caused by frequent short surges in core temperature. This happens at normal load just above idle, e.g just web browsing and YouTube.

This has happened with a few different brands of motherboards, in multiple chassis with different brands of fans, so I think it's a characteristic of the Ryzen platform rather than a specific motherboard brand or BIOS.

It's really odd and annoying, and I've resorted to fan curves that keep the fan on low RPM until just before the CPU hits 90C -- basically flat with a big hockey stick inflection at the end.

SV_BubbleTime• 4 years ago

It's really odd and annoying, and I've resorted to fan curves that keep the fan on low RPM until just before the CPU hits 90C -- basically flat with a big hockey stick inflection at the end.

Same. I haven’t found much better. I always wonder how it doesn’t drive other people nuts.

morepork• 4 years ago

How about putting the button on the case, like the good old turbo buttons on 386/486s

crest• 4 years ago

Does the "box" include a 2kW industrial chiller like last time?

tibbydudeza• 4 years ago

Tejas and Jayhawk lives !!!!.

jscipione• 4 years ago

AMD announces 5.7ghz Ryzen 9 7950X chip retailing for $699 this month, meanwhile Intel hints at vapor chip that theoretically might hit 6ghz with no release date and no price. This stinks of desperation on Intel’s part.

stardude9002• 4 years ago

Sure does... also the Intel announcement is on the same date that AMD releases their new chips.

hulitu5• 4 years ago

Intel was always good at marketing. Performance (buck for buck) on the other hand ...

Latty• 4 years ago

I hope Intel can keep up, actual competition has been so great. It does feel like they are really struggling with their process issues though.

Night_Thastus• 4 years ago

I think we're going to see major shakeups over the next ~10 years from both companies. Old models of design are quickly reaching their limits. Heterogeneous cores and multi-die designs are just the start. It's an exciting time!

nashashmi2• 4 years ago

Please have some sympathy for the pathetic workers who have to work overtime to keep up because management failed to keep progress for the new and exciting.

Sometimes this competition thing is a distraction. Like now there is an emergency meeting for the three year roadmap to shrink to 1 year and with less innovation than they planned it to have, and the actual three year roadmap becomes 5 years because of wasted energy for short term gains.

7speter2• 4 years ago

It just seems like they are struggling as a company.

blibble2• 4 years ago

that 6ghz intel chip will probably use at least 300W too (12900ks uses 274W)

booi• 4 years ago

that's actually a feature since you don't need to have a space heater anymore. checkmate

spartanatreyu• 4 years ago

You won't need to worry about the heat, since you can just reuse some of the liquid nitrogen that's cooling the chip to allow it to hit 6ghz in the first place.

pinewurst• 4 years ago

I'm waiting for them to somehow redefine speed, like they redefined production geometries. How fast is it? It's Intel 7.

jalgos_eminator• 4 years ago

You laugh, but AMD did that in the mid-2000's with the Athlon XP series: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Athlon_XP_processo... The numbers used to match their clock speed (ex. Athlon 1000 was 1000 MHz), but that changed with the XP models (ex. Athlon XP 2400+ was 2000 MHz).

mhh__5• 4 years ago

The numbers were always complete bullshit this is like complaining about a shop calling a cake tasty.

kingrazor• 4 years ago

Nanometers has been a meaningless measurement for a long time now, ever since it stopped referring to the actual size of the transistors.

jjcon• 4 years ago

Intel just did that to conform to what the rest of the industry (namely TSMC) had already been doing. NM hasn't meant nanometers for a decade.

mhh__5• 4 years ago

Raptor lake engineering samples are already in the hands of people benchmarking them if you know where to look

timmytokyo• 4 years ago

To be honest, I'm disappointed by the new Ryzen 7000 series power consumption, enough so that I'll be sticking with my 5000 series CPUs for as long as I can. Not everyone wants their PC to double as a space heater.

chmod775• 4 years ago

Ryzen 7000 has better performance per watt though. If you don't want a space heater you might be better served to get a Ryzen 7000 and limit the TDP to whatever you're comfortable with.

It'll be faster than a Ryzen 5000 drawing the same amount of power: according to AMD the Ryzen 7000 will be "up to 49 percent"[1] faster at the same power draw.

[1] https://www.pcworld.com/article/918007/amd-launches-ryzen-70...

coder5433• 4 years ago

Precisely which reviews have you seen for Ryzen 7000 that paint it as a space heater?

The official announcement indicated significantly better power efficiency. AMD claims that if you limit both to a 65W TDP, you'll see 74% better performance on the new generation, but that even at full TDP, the efficiency will be higher.

However, I am waiting on the actual reviews... not making multi-year decisions based off of limited, pre-release information. If it is more efficient, then vowing to stick with an older, less efficient product just because it has a lower TDP number on the box doesn't make any sense. Efficiency is the only thing that matters when seeking to avoid a space heater, since the less efficient product will generate more heat for a given amount of work. All of these processors will clock down when idle

whateveracct• 4 years ago

The pendulum swings yet again. I remember in the 2000s when AMD and ATI were the best buys.

neogodless7• 4 years ago

I'd recommend waiting for unbiased reviews of actual products, taking into consideration price, performance, and power usage before determining the "best buy" of the upcoming generation of products.

Though I hope the pendulum is swinging enough to keep driving the improvements. My current desktop CPU is absolute overkill while sipping relatively little power during my light usage.

RadixDLT2• 4 years ago

drum roll please

bradhe• 4 years ago

That was exactly my thought. It's just a bit sad to watch Intel fail so badly here. I was a big Intel fan for a long time.

ksidudwbw• 4 years ago

1 plank meter! 12 GHz!

keepquestioning• 4 years ago

Are we back to the GHz wars?

andix• 4 years ago

Does it come with an included nuclear power plant?

Melatonic2• 4 years ago

Every few years either AMD or Nvidia comes out with some chips that blow away the competition and everyone claims that the chip war is dead. Then the gap slowly closes again until they are sort of neck and neck until one of them does the same thing.

neogodless7• 4 years ago

everyone claims that the chip war is dead

Who claimed this?

smm11• 4 years ago

I'm betting 99 percent of devices using this chip will be used 99 percent of the time for internet access, meaning the bottleneck is now bandwidth.

sergiotapia• 4 years ago

I can't wait to see the RPCS3 benchmarks. We are so close to perfection with the 12900K already.

oblak• 4 years ago

Incidentally, the chip is code-named Preshott 2

Snark aside, I have a couple of 3700x machines and an itch. Kind of split between upgrading my gaming machine (not entirely worth it) or changing the mini-ITX and severely undervolting a 7700x.

Or, I can just wait for the zen 5 which was my original plan but as I said, I've the captains itch

de6u99er• 4 years ago

Looks like desperation to me.

I believe AMD's technology and furthermore strategy is superior to intel's. Now with Xilinx on board I am curious if we will see GPU's or APU's with FPGA's which allow custom hardware instructions.

moffkalast• 4 years ago

I'm really not sure what's the point of this either. Some AMD FXs were clocked to 5GHz back in the day and it sure didn't help them with performance much, they just had to ship with water coolers as stock because they overheated like crazy.

Meanwhile an Intel i5 of the time could run faster at half the clock speed. I suspect this'll be a similar blunder but companies reversed in some stroke of irony.

wmf4• 4 years ago

The difference is that Bulldozer (and NetBurst before it) was a bad design. Golden Cove and Zen 4 are both excellent and quite similar core designs with nearly identical IPC so the difference between 5.7 and 6.0 GHz is the difference between being #1 (by a hair) and being #2.

hk1337• 4 years ago

Just one though, so some lucky individual will have the fastest 13th Generation Intel CPU.

gigatexal• 4 years ago

And use fifty gigs watts of power or?

etempleton• 4 years ago

These are crazy frequencies and I am sure they have the thermals to match, but this is also the sign that competition is tight. Both companies are trying to get every bit of performance out of their designs. Advanced cooling systems that are now common on enthusiast machines are helping.

Regardless if you think they can pull it off or not, Intel's roadmap is fascinating. They expect pretty tremendous growth not just in the processor space, but in the US foundry space. They are aiming to be able to compete with TSMC and Samsung in this space.

HereIGoAgain• 4 years ago

Yeah but how much actually gets down in each of those cycles?

bilsbie• 4 years ago

Doubling processor speed over 20 years is still exponential.

kristianp• 4 years ago

Apparently this is a stopgap until Meteor Lake, which will use the "Intel 7" process, hopefully improving on power efficiency. However Meteor Lake isn't scheduled until 2nd half of 2023.

These 13 gen are Raptor lake, which uses the same process as Alder Lake.

wmf4• 4 years ago

Meteor Lake is on Intel 4.

zamadatix2• 4 years ago

I think an underappreciated thing in these conversations is that +200W of TDP of top end products nets a very small increase in actual performance, especially if you're not maxing out all 24 cores. The "halo" models are there purely for the enthusiast that want the absolute fastest CPU regardless of other tradeoffs not those concerned about things like air cooling or electricity cost. E.g. the 13700k is a 125W/253W CPU. The 13700T is a 35W/~105W? CPU. They have ~identical single thread performance and are within <25% on 24 core performance.

What the article doesn't cover is the actual performance uplift but that seems a given being an article about this newly rumoured model not an overview of 13th gen performance as a whole.

I love my power efficient M1 macbook and I love my number crunching Zen 3 CPU. The 2 SKUs I have aren't serving the same market and where the architectures overlap the differences aren't as profound as comparing extremes from each family would lead you to believe.

AtlasBarfed• 4 years ago

Yeah, basically unless a piece of laptop hardware comes on x86 that can match the M1's battery life/efficiency/performance, Gigahertz and 13900 k-class unicorn horns and all that is just marketing. Generations, X% better than last generation is all powerpoint / tech press bulletpoints.

The M1 produced a bigger enduser boost than the introduction of SSDs. We're now at 1 year for the M1 essentially, and there is no conquerable x86 product yet, and I don't really see it on roadmaps.

Microsoft remains too incompetent to make a usable desktop OS, and their hardware forays are always spectacular failures, so they won't provide the hardware leadership. That leaves Intel and AMD, and both appear to be in head-in-sand mode.

And I am no mac zealot. The only thing I like about my M1 work laptop is the battery life, but it's such an incredible leap over any other laptop experience that it is the gold standard. I'd love a linux laptop that was comparable, x86 or ARM, but if the M1 is an A+, all other laptops are basically at C or C- grade.

zamadatix2• 4 years ago

If your only guiding metric is laptop perf/watt then absolutely the M1 is ahead of the pack. I'd call things like the 6800 at least B grade for that class though - close calls in both single/multi with each having a win and power efficiency not all that far behind for doing so. It'll be interesting to see Zen 4 based mobile CPUs vs the M2 in '23, the M2 didn't really make much of a move but Zen 4 did.

mikotodomo• 4 years ago

This is literally crazy. To think just a few years ago we could barely get 3Ghz. With this and AI breakthroughs I think the next decade will be crazy.

slk500• 4 years ago

finally! doom at full speed

RadixDLT2• 4 years ago

this chip will cause a blackout in the neighborhood

FunnyBadger• 4 years ago

Clock rate limits are directly due to physical heating limits on-chip with silicon. That's what it stopped being an automate gimmme of scaling and it likely never will come back again as a systematic thing because the laws of physics can't be changed.

Cores were the direct answer to this limit. But then Amdahl's Law limits what cores can do.

What this story means is someone decided to trade off thermal effects for clock rate. The primary effect of heat is reliability - that is, how many years of operation can you expect with the final product. Heat kills the life span of transistors, metal and oxide.

Honestly there's nothing special about hitting 6 GHz - it's not some magical thing. Magical thinking people!!

Intel says one of its 13th Gen CPUs will hit 6GHz out of the box

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