Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

https://insideevs.com/news/566896/toyota-electric-vehicle-manual-transmission/

by aruanavekar • 4 years ago

151 249 4 years ago

Seems very similar to paddle shifters in a gas CVT. There's no mechanical connection between the "clutch peddle" and "shifter" to the actual transmission, it is all just fed into a computer and a simulation is created to give the driver a warm fizzy feeling.

If this makes people feel better during the transitional phase, I guess that counts for something, but this is a manual car simulation only.

consp• 4 years ago

My Current car does this when the the petrol engine kicks in (Hybrid with CVT), it does a tiny bit of "gear simulation" with the engine if you floor it and it uses the petrol engine together with the electric one and it adds a bit more of fake engine sound though the speakers to make it more obvious.

Strange thing is they chose to only have "three gears", no matter at what speed you do it the max is two shifts.

Not that it matters a lot, the shift in revs is not too much and if it gets petrol loving people into hybrid vehicles I'm OK with that.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS5• 4 years ago

Nissan does this with their CVTs as well. Apparently they found that people didn't really like the "all one gear" feel, so they programmed in "gear changes" where the CVT changes ratio like an automatic. You still get the CVT advantage when going up a hill or stomping on the accelerator, though.

They've been phasing out their CVTs in favor of traditional automatics, though.

jonathanlydall• 4 years ago

I don’t see the point for EVs, but I actually somewhat regularly use the “gear down” paddle on my Honda Jazz (AKA Fit in other countries) CVT, but not for a “warm fizzy feeling”.

It actually “locks” the gears to a particular ratio which allows me to use the engine to keep the car from exceeding a particular speed when coasting down a hill. When I start using the accelerator after, it very quickly switches itself back to automatic as soon as the “locked in” gear ratio is clearly non-optimal.

I’ve never bothered using them for any other scenario though, I don’t see the point as the CVT (at least on my car) very intuitively adjusts gear ratio based on how far I’ve pushed in the accelerator, it’s such a pleasure to drive.

LorenPechtel8• 4 years ago

Yup, I've used a paddle shifter in a rental for this very purpose--using the engine as a brake while going downhill.

My Corolla only has two possible downshifts and neither is all that good for holding speed on a downhill but the cruise control is integrated into the system--I can set a speed and the computer will do a pretty good job of using the engine to keep from exceeding it too much and since it's adaptive it will always avoid the car in front even if otherwise it doesn't hold the speed that perfectly. Since I found that out I've never touched the downshifts.

nottorp2• 4 years ago

Funny that it's coming from the same Toyota that puts CVTs with no discrete gear steps in their gas cars and doesn't try to hide it...

viraptor• 4 years ago

Why would you expect them to hide it? It works great. I think the CVVT text was included right under the model name on my Toyota too.

ReactiveJelly2• 4 years ago

I thought that some early CVT cars hid it by having the ECU fake small shifts

_fat_santa• 4 years ago

Toyota also makes the iMT transmission, which is possibly the most user friendly manual transmission ever made.

ohgodplsno• 4 years ago

It's also the same Toyota that did the Yaris GR, so they know a thing or two about manuals. They've always done what just works, for the target car.

Hell, the CVT in the Yaris can actually feel good, it's relatively responsive and gives a linear push (when the electric engine is charged, going on pure ICE is hell). You just have to enjoy the BRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

dylan6042• 4 years ago

I had a 2015 model car without a CVT, but it was replaced with a next year model with a CVT after the non-CVT was totaled in a wreck. The 2 cars drove/felt completely different. It took some time to understand why (I'm not a grease monkey), but I'm not really sure I ever liked the CVT model.

ramesh31• 4 years ago

Funny that it's coming from the same Toyota that puts CVTs with no discrete gear steps in their gas cars and doesn't try to hide it...

CVT is, theoretically, infinitely superior to a traditional geared automatic transmission. They got a bad wrap at first (just like traditional automatics) when they were introduced, but the tech has matured and they are extremely reliable now.

winrid5• 4 years ago

Based on what metric? I play with new cars that come out, every year, for fairly low speed technical driving competitions. I get to try a lot of models. The CVTs always overheat. Always. I bring a spray bottle of water to cool the radiator down between runs (the CVT cooling is piped into the rad).

The current Hyundai's and Kias using traditional six speed autos never overheat. The Spark is one of my favorite cars to drive on these courses, and unfortunately even the 98hp 1.4L will overheat the CVT after a minute of hard driving.

DwnVoteHoneyPot• 4 years ago

Same company that puts in fake hood scoops too

rossmohax• 4 years ago

It is not the first time when product simulates imperfections of the past technology to make product more authentic in customers eyes.

Film color,lenses defects, lots of "analog" audio effects and now cars.

Kaibeezy4• 4 years ago

The feeling of controlling a machine = "imperfections"

What I would expect a machine to say. I, for one, do not welcome our new robot overlords.

SilverBirch• 4 years ago

It's not about control. Transmissions in cars existed because internal combustion engines have a torque curve - the amount of torque you can get out of an engine varies with the engine speed, and so in order to maximize the torque at any given road speed you need to match the current road speed with the engine speed that produces peak torque. Now, there were different ways of doing this - manual transmissions vs semi-auto vs fully-auto and they did genuinely have pros and cons. For an ICE car there is genuinely a trade-off of how much control you have over the transmission.

BUT that's entirely untrue of electric cars, electric motors produce maximum torque at 0 engine speed and eventually drop at high speed. So there's simply no reason to be using a transmission at all. There is no decision to be made about gearing, you either have enough torque or you don't.

spookthesunset2• 4 years ago

I mean an EV will have a different feeling. No need to attempt to simulate legacy stuff. Learn to work with the new stuff.

The interesting thing is with an EV you can customize the crap out of how the thing feels. You can (theoretically) tweak all the rates used by the controls to make it feel any way you want.

checkyoursudo• 4 years ago

I think it is kind of funny to come across video games that have crazy lens flare. I assume that is to give them cinematic feel rather than some nostalgic anachronism, but this reminds me of that too?

WithinReason• 4 years ago

The movie frame rate of 24 fps...

falcor843• 4 years ago

On a sidenote, here's a controversial opinion - electrically-powered analog clocks are silly and we should discontinue making them.

aidenn02• 4 years ago

As someone with zero sense of time, analog clocks let me use my spatial reasoning to reason about time. I am much more aware of how much time I'm spending on something with an analog clock

ayemiller• 4 years ago

When the power goes out, what happens to an “electrically-powered analog clock?”

ultrarunner2• 4 years ago

AC clocks can sync their motors to the grid frequency, making it another perfectly valid mechanism of counting time. The grid frequency is very consistent.

Denvercoder9• 4 years ago

Analog clocks use much less power than digital clocks, by virtue of not having to continually emit light. That property may also be desirable for other reasons.

Kaibeezy4• 4 years ago

Graphs and charts are silly. You have CSV.

LorenPechtel8• 4 years ago

I can read an analog clock at a greater range than I can read a digital of the same size. Usually not that big a deal for me but without my glasses the difference is substantial.

jancsika• 4 years ago

"View Source" on modern web browsers, Rust's "unsafe," human logins for HN's GPT-3 sandbox... it's like we're addicted to the past.

Union protectionism and crony capitalism at its best if you ask me, YMMV.

kitd• 4 years ago

It reminds me of the times I've had to make code "bug-compatible" with previous releases to fit in with how the outside world as adapted our systems.

rthomas65• 4 years ago

I suppose I'm not the target market for this. To me this is just added complexity that increases cost and likelihood of something breaking. I'm still waiting for someone to make a "battery on wheels", an electric car with no extra bells and whistles. I think it could end up being so cheap to own, and also extremely reliable, since electric cars need no transmissions, and almost no maintenance of any kind for that matter. My Leaf needs tires, and... that's about it until 100k miles.

willis9362• 4 years ago

This comes up in every HN EV thread.

Why not convert a mid 20th century car to EV?

goethes_kind• 4 years ago

For one, safety issues. Conversions only make sense when you want to have some kind of exotic classic, and then make it even more exotic with your custom powertrain.

LBJsPNS• 4 years ago

No air bags, seat belts, crumple zones, etc...

formerly_proven• 4 years ago

A skateboard-style BEV sees significant benefits in crash performance from the battery, that's not something you get with hybrid platforms ("ICE and also BEV on the same platform") or conversions. Crash performance in cars has in general massively benefited from the trifecta of more stringent requirements, better processes and more compute in the last two or so decades.

ytdytvhxgydvhh• 4 years ago

I'm still waiting for someone to make a "battery on wheels", an electric car with no extra bells and whistles.

Didn’t you already find it with the Leaf? Or is a base-model Leaf still full of lots of unnecessary farkle?

rthomas65• 4 years ago

Yes. But they stopped making it like that. The new Leaf base models are $28k minimum, have lane assist, auto braking, high beam assist, smartphone integration, 8" multi touch display, voice recognition, and more. I paid around $12k in 2017 for a used 2015 Leaf. You can't do that anymore.

pjc50• 4 years ago

an electric car with no extra bells and whistles

You can have this, but you have to import it from China, and the minimum level of bells and whistles required to legally operate it on the roads in the US is incredibly high.

GnarfGnarf• 4 years ago

As a clutch enthusiast, I would welcome this innovation if it actually improved EV motor performance. If its only purpose is to simulate the ICE experience, I'm not interested.

projektfu• 4 years ago

Based on my experience with the Volt, which already needed traction control to keep the tires from spinning, it probably will offer slighlty different driving modes. Torquey, smooth, low-rev/low-heat highway mode.

smileysteve• 4 years ago

There are multiple types of electronic traction control, active brakes and active power; in a high torque situation, active power manipulation is required. Electronic throttle has allowed better ramping of ice motors since the early 2000s. In high power sports cars it was bettered to be called launch control.

There's little downside to active power control unless you want the effect of not having it.

Side note to locking and viscous differentials (and for automatic transmissions, the "slushbox" torque converter), which have been providing passive traction control in cars for 70 years.

culopatin2• 4 years ago

The only thing the clutch is good for is to get the tires loose with a clutch kick or to detach the engine drag from the wheels if one so desired.

spookthesunset2• 4 years ago

Wouldn’t a motor be able to chirp the tires all by itself?

Dunno how much drag the motor would create if allowed to spin freely…

manual89• 4 years ago

Yep, I'd be interested in this psuedo-manual only if it simulated this aspect of the ICE original.

mhb2• 4 years ago

No worse than Subaru's ICE CVT with fake shift points?

analog312• 4 years ago

I don't even notice the stepped shifting when I drive my Soobie. In fact I wondered why it worked that way, and assumed it had something to do with minimizing wear and tear on the shift mechanism.

It's the closest thing to "get in and drive" of any car I've had. I especially love the adaptive cruise control.

mhb2• 4 years ago

Yes. I also think it works great including the lane change warnings. It is maddening that there is no way to prevent the radio from turning on every time the car does, though.

superchroma2• 4 years ago

I can't decide whether this is dumber than Dodge making a huge deal about how their new EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) makes authentic loud V8 noises, but they're definitely both stupid. Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?

foepys• 4 years ago

I wish EVs were actually silent. In reality they are just as loud as a normal ICE vehicle above 20mph/30kph.

The reason for this are the tires which have gotten so wide over the past decades that they are now the sole noise you hear from a normal car.

davemp• 4 years ago

You should hear the folks that gun it a couple streets over with their modded mufflers at 2am in my neighborhood.

dekhn• 4 years ago

Uh, no. I have a hybrid and the difference in noise between a gas engine and electric is highly noticeable at all speeds, in cabin or outside.

garyfirestorm3• 4 years ago

There’s a regulatory requirement that specifies how much minimum noise should be emitted in each frequency band. All BEVs need this pedestrian alert system. It takes into account that partially deaf people may not be able to hear certain frequencies say tire noise band.

kube-system3• 4 years ago

Tires have gotten quieter over recent history, not louder, as a result of better tread design. You are noticing tire noise now because drivetrains have become quieter even more so.

BEVs are not running tires that are any different sizes than similar positioned gas cars. The model 3 is running similar tire sizes to the German sports sedans of similar positioning. The leaf is running similar sizes to other hatchbacks. Etc.

In general, cars are running larger tires in every dimension, but cars are also larger in every dimension.

sokoloff2• 4 years ago

Above about 20 mph, EVs naturally make plenty of noise for people to realize they’re there and moving. It’s only at low speed that they’re overly quiet for pedestrian awareness.

DoughnutHole• 4 years ago

Getting hit at 18mph is still not a very good time. Sure it's better than being squished at 40mph, but that's still a lot of momentum in a couple tonnes of SUV.

If the silence of the vehicles increases the likelihood of lower speed collisions then that's potentially a problem.

CalChris• 4 years ago

The first time I ever saw an EV was in San Francisco, an EV1, somewhere around 2000. It literally was silent at slow speeds. My own first EV was a Leaf which has a noise maker which starts audible and decreases with speed and cuts out at about 20. I don't think my S does this. It should. This sound is a little annoying for the driver but is necessary for pedestrians, particularly blind people.

BTW, this clutch idea is really really dumb.

dpatterbee• 4 years ago

Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?

The future looks bleaker with each passing day

sokoloff2• 4 years ago

  My uncle has a country place, that no-one knows about
  He says it used to be a farm, before the Motor Law
  Sundays I elude the ‘Eyes’, and hop the Turbine Freight
  To far outside the Wire, where my white-haired uncle waits

  Jump to the ground
  As the Turbo slows to cross the borderline
  Run like the wind
  As excitement shivers up and down my spine
  Down in his barn
  My uncle preserved for me an old machine –
  For fifty-odd years
  To keep it as new has been his dearest dream

  I strip away the old debris, that hides a shining car
  A brilliant red Barchetta, from a better, vanished time
  Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar!
  Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime…

  Wind in my hair –
  Shifting and drifting –
  Mechanical music
  Adrenalin surge –

  Well-weathered leather
  Hot metal and oil
  The scented country air
  Sunlight on chrome
  The blur of the landscape
  Every nerve aware
  …

Red Barchetta - Rush - Moving Pictures - 1981

chiefalchemist2• 4 years ago

It's not all about pedestrians. Take Harley Davidson motorcycles for example. The sound is the brand. It's what people buy (into).

Not saying that's right or wrong. Only that it's not strictly a pedestrian thing.

Since in EVs it's more or less simulated, it would make since to have more than one setting and one of those to be off.

p.s. The Dodge Charger has been ine of Dodge's most successful model. Gazillions of recognition has been invested in that model. They're not going to abandon that. In fact, the name makes more sense as an EV.

lm284692• 4 years ago

It's not all about pedestrians.
and one of those to be off.

It definitely is, Europe wouldn't pass a law mandating slow speed EV artificial noise if it was just a matter of branding

mistersquid2• 4 years ago

Take Harley Davidson motorcycles for example. The sound is the brand.

When a significant part of your brand is noise pollution, your brand needs updating. [0]

[0] According to Autoweek, "Loud pipes save lives" is false https://www.autoweek.com/news/industry-news/a35952569/loud-p...

dylan6042• 4 years ago

The Dodge Charger has been around a lot longer than EVs. It is has also recently been announced they are discontinuing the Charger as an ICE model.

garyfirestorm3• 4 years ago

Just the V8 ICE is going away

pwg• 4 years ago

The Dodge Charger has been around a lot longer than EVs.

Per Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Charger) the name has been around for 56 years (since 1966). Or 58 years for the "show car" version of 1964.

ForHackernews• 4 years ago

Technically EVs predate all petrol cars, let alone the Dodge Charger https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378765/worth-the-wa...

Electrobat! Is that not a great name? It belongs to the first commercially viable EV effort. Philadelphians Pedro Salom and Henry G. Morris adapted technology from battery-electric street cars and boats and got a patent in 1894. At first very heavy and slow (like a trolley car, with steel “tires” and 1600 pounds of batteries onboard), their Electrobat [at left] evolved to employ pneumatic tires and lighter materials so that, by 1896, their rear-steer carriages used two 1.1-kW motors to move 25 miles at a top speed of 20 mph. Electrobats and another electric by Riker won a series of five-mile sprint races against gasoline Duryea automobiles in 1896.

schuke• 4 years ago

If Charger is a name too mundane for the digital world, perhaps Super Charger would up the game a little bit ? Oh wait…

Fiahil• 4 years ago

makes authentic loud V8 noises

I'm so glad this monstrosity is not cleared for European roads.

datavirtue• 4 years ago

In the future pedestrians are first class citizens, and the cars refuse to run over them.

lm284692• 4 years ago

Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?

Getting rid of 50% of your car detecting senses doesn't seem like a good idea

badcppdev• 4 years ago

Or imagine if you're blind. Trying to listen for tire noise.

trasz2• 4 years ago

Is this still a problem now that we have auto braking?

YorickPeterse• 4 years ago

This is only a problem when there are other loud vehicles around. If all vehicles are more quiet, you'll still be able to hear them, it just won't be as loud as it is today.

red369• 4 years ago

On the other hand, pedestrians relying on hearing a car coming is a nightmare for cyclists.

cnasc• 4 years ago

makes authentic loud V8 noises

Doesn’t it make an obnoxiously amplified EV high pitched whir? That was the impression I got from the unveiling

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS5• 4 years ago

EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up)

To be fair, the Charger name was created long before it meant "thing you use to plug into an electric device", and the Charger is a very popular vehicle in the Dodge lineup. And you don't abandon popular models without generating negative PR. So Dodge didn't really have a choice.

Plus, they can use the pun in witty commercials.

superchroma2• 4 years ago

I know, they could have chosen the Dart or stuck with the Challenger. Or, wild idea, go for the Coronet, Plymouth Cuda, Roadrunner or GTX. I guess they're going to go with the joke, anyway.

bluejekyll• 4 years ago

They killed the Charger brand in 1987, then reintroduced it in 2006.

Fast cars are dangerous on our streets and responsible for a significant number of deaths on the road. It wouldn’t be bad if they killed the brand for society.

It’s too bad that “car that gets you great mileage and helps protect kids in driveways and crosswalks” doesn’t sell.

mannykannot• 4 years ago

The acquisition of a patent by a major corporation is not much evidence that it will ever be implemented; it amounts to a relatively cheap option on being able to do so.

Personally, this one seems about as appealing as bringing back the manual ignition advance on gas-engined cars.

gambiting2• 4 years ago

That already exists - in China . They made a vehicle like this for driving lessons - so you can pass your test in a "manual" vehicle.

netsharc• 4 years ago

I wonder if it simulates the juddery stall when you stop in gear...

gambiting2• 4 years ago

Yes it does apparently.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopnik.com/this-chinese-elect...

albertopv• 4 years ago

I don't want a fake clutch.

throwaway787544• 4 years ago

I like the idea, but I'd rather an ICE conversion with a real drivetrain and transmission and an EV motor. I'll build it myself if no manufacturers will.

topspin• 4 years ago

This is already widespread. You can buy a electric crate engine from Ford for about $4000. That is, when they are not sold out.

nabilhat• 4 years ago

This is a neat example though of how arbitrary EV drivetrains are. A Toyota marketing exec's (just guessing) FUD about imagined consumer FUD turns into, why don't we just ramp down torque in notches in relation to road speed increments? Of course anyone who buys this is going to try it once then leave it in all-the-torque-all-the-time mode, but that's not the point. I can't say I've met a single three pedal afficionado who bemoaned the lack of shifting after experiencing the mild concussion inducing levels of acceleration of some of these new EV's. If roadgoing gas cars had that kind of torque, they wouldn't shift either, just like the fastest drag cars. There's no point.

gpt5• 4 years ago

The counter argument is that European vehicles are vastly using manual gear, despite the fact that except for a small minority, no one cares about the potential difference in torque.

There is just a lot of people that are used the a certain solution and are resistant to change.

spellboots• 4 years ago

There are economic and regulatory factors involved, it is more complex than people being resistant to change which no doubt makes up part of it.

In the UK, for example, automatic cars are more expensive to buy and insure [1]. They also tend to be more expensive to learn how to drive as instructors mostly have manual cars to teach with.

This incentivises new drivers towards manual cars, especially as younger drivers are more likely to be in lower-paying jobs and therefore more price conscious.

There is also a separate license category for automatic cars. If you have this license you are not allowed to drive manual cars, whereas the manual license entitles the holder to drive both. Therefore most new drivers opt to learn manual for the flexibility and the cost reasons.

1: https://www.moneysupermarket.com/car-insurance/automatic-car...

qikInNdOutReply• 4 years ago

The actual reason for having gears even with EVs in european vehicles, is mostly the "one plattform" approach which carmakers here afraid to go all in on EVs. Hybrids, traditional combustion and EVs are expected to share as many parts as possible - which of course as all engineering compromises go means you become 2nd best in all areas.

detaro2• 4 years ago

For new cars that's not true anymore.

aaronbrethorst• 4 years ago

no one cares about the potential difference in torque

This stops being true the first time you depress the accelerator on an EV. My Kia has a 0-60 time comparable to a low-end Porsche.

manholio• 4 years ago

Electric engines are capable of insane torque, but prolonged operation in such a mode is far from efficient, cool and preferable from a reliability standpoint. Two seconds at the green light - yes, plowing your field with a Tesla - no.

So I can see it making sense for vehicles that have have two modes of operation, for example a tractor or all-terain vehicle that also need to work on public roads at relatively high speeds. A manual gear box is ideal in such a setting, because you seldom need to use it and it's very simple, cost effective and reliable. In any case, only useful for an extreme niche of applications.

robryk4• 4 years ago

In snowy conditions you don't actually want all the torque available: then you'd want to control the torque applied instead of the power delivered when starting to move (similar to placing a restriction on the top torque by shifting into second gear on manual shift cars).

falcolas5• 4 years ago

Agreed, and I’d go so far to say you don’t want all the torque on anything but a clean racetrack. Rain, oil, gravel, animal carcasses… there’s plenty of road conditions where a lead foot plus extreme torque will carry you violently off the road.

kaitai• 4 years ago

That's why I stick with a manual transmission -- far better handling in snow. Have not asked my EV peers how it's working for them.

jpollock2• 4 years ago

I'm curious on the relative performance of traction control?

Isn't the goal of traction control to limit the power to the wheel?

Reading on how TCS works [1], it seems it applies the brake and may limit power from the engine?

[1] https://www.scienceabc.com/innovation/what-is-a-traction-con...

bearjaws• 4 years ago

At least in a Tesla it will automatically dial torque down when slip is detected. It accomplishes this via lowering amperage to the motor, it also can adjust wheel spin using individual wheel braking.

All of this is already working fine with no transmission... Adding one to a consumer EV for snowy conditions is a step backwards in terms of more stuff to break and maintain.

I believe this makes more sense for heavy equipment and freight trucks. You wouldn't want to have the gear ratio for heavy load all the time, as it would require the motor to spin at high RPMs (inefficient) to maintain highway speeds even when the amount of torque required is low.

Hexcles• 4 years ago

You're over generalizing. Not all enthusiasts value the same point. For some including myself, it's not about acceleration or speed. Automatic (DCT and the new ZF8) has long surpassed manual transmission in almost all aspects of performance. It's similar to how some people like manual espresso machines, film cameras, etc. It's a hobby and you enjoy the process. See how the newest Koenigsegg goes great length to make this weird automatic manual.

ehnto2• 4 years ago

I am absolutely a manual gearbox fan for driving experience, and that's in Aus where it's not really idolized like it is in America. A lot more manuals here. But you are dead right. I think because it lacks all of the mechanical apparatus anyway, it's not like driving a regular car in automatic, it's like driving a different kind of vehicle. So you don't miss the gearbox.

All that said, I do appreciate the tendency for Japanese car companies to take care with the act of doing in their cars. I know Porsche gets the trophy for wholistic driving experiences, but Japan is doing a great job of bringing some of that back from the 90s bubble era cars.

russellbeattie• 4 years ago

It's not idolization it's identification. Americans have a tendency to identify with what they like. You don't just like surfing, you're a surfer. This leads to odd statements like, "I drive a manual, but I'm not a manual driver or anything." After my fellow American identifies with something, then its obvious superiority comes next. It's a complex. See our current political environment for extreme examples.

micromacrofoot• 4 years ago

why would anyone ever pay for this? the simplicity of going from a ICE to an EV is a huge benefit

fred256• 4 years ago

As an owner of both a manual transmission car and an EV, I enjoy driving them both, but I don’t want the manual transmission experience with an EV power train.

Salgat2• 4 years ago

For some context, the first Tesla Roadster also had a transmission, but Tesla quickly realized that it's far better to simply scale up the motor so that the torque curve is high enough at higher RPMs, electronically cap the torque at low RPM, and remove the transmission altogether. Considering transmissions are one of the most expensive and common major parts to repair in a vehicle, it is astounding that anyone would try to bring it back.

ChuckNorris89• 4 years ago

You're assuming in your argument that scaling up the motor is somehow free and that's why the cost of a transmission is stupid. Well it's not free, that's why transmissions exist.

Salgat2• 4 years ago

I never claimed it was free, I said that Tesla discovered that removing the transmission by scaling up the motor was a far better option.

dragontamer• 4 years ago

I have to imagine that a smaller torqueband but more gears would make for a more efficient electric vehicle.

The torque from 1000lbs of Li-ion cannot be denied, but are there other options here? Less torque, fewer batteries, less range but still the acceptable acceleration and cruising speeds?

The high end Porches Tycan proved that two gears is a good design, even at the highest end of performance, for example. Lower performance vehicles probably have more opportunity to use gears?

bl_valance• 4 years ago

I'm the target audience for this. I know it makes no sense, to make the car slower "shifting" through the gears, but for many of us it's the feel of full control over the car's mechanics. It's similar to the appeal of motorcycles, we ride them because every body input you make matters to the control of it. With all this said, there will still be a market for ICE manual cars for many years to come, it'll sure become more expensive to own one but I guess that'll be the price we'll have to pay. I also don't think the desire to continue driving manual will die off, anecdotally, I was talking to my 10-year old nephew and he seemed enamored with the idea of driving manual especially interested in early 2000s JDM cars, this was a really shock to me tbh I would of never thought this will be relevant with today's youth.

hbarka3• 4 years ago

Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only affects what happens when letting off the power pedal.

The nice thing about the regen paddle mechanical control is the no-look ability at your fingertips to change the car’s response depending on driving context. There are moments when you don’t want the car to tip into a regeneration drag when letting off the power pedal and sometimes you feel the need for the “engine braking” to engage right away.

All the other EVs just have strong regen (B setting) or low regen and the selection is a preset you have to choose either on the screen or somewhere near the shift cluster and isn’t exactly a no-look control you can change on the fly. The older VW Golf EV used to have a stick where you can tap up and down two levels of regen on the fly and that was also a great experience but now buttons have replaced the stick. (Sigh, it was nice while you had it, VW!) The Chevy Bolt has one paddle but it’s designed like a brake-with-your-hands lever when depressed. Not quite the effect of stepping up or down.

In sum, the feeling of downshifting, such as into a turn, can be controlled. On the other hand, there is no need for “upshifting” if the EV had adequate power to get to a high speed. Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. I think Toyota’s goal is to eke out more range because they want to use less powerful motors where the power and torque bands would benefit from gearing. My dream is for Tesla to add mechanical paddle shifters and do what Hyundai does.

jjtheblunt• 4 years ago

Is it coincidence that so many designs first seen in Audi seem to show up in Hyundia/Kia at a short delay?

xanathar2• 4 years ago

The Audi e-Tron debuted on 17 September 2018. The Kia e-Niro debuted on 18 September 2018. The Hyundai Kona was selling in the USA on November 2017.

Are you referring to a different model? Because if we consider the e-Tron... it doesn't seem to be where this design was first seen.

dangrossman2• 4 years ago

The first vehicle with a regen steering wheel paddle was the 2014 Cadillac ELR, followed by the Chevy Volt and Chevy Bolt in 2016.

lokedhs3• 4 years ago

I have the Niro EV, and it was my first EV. The paddle shifters are amazing, and you get used to them very quickly. I recently rented another EV and I was surprised it wasn't there.

Most of the time I can drive without even touching the brake pedal, since you can hold the left paddle and it will engage maximum engine braking, which it quite powerful. This helps with battery as well since there is less energy loss when braking.

LorenPechtel8• 4 years ago

I thought anything other than really hard braking didn't actually happen anyway, it was actually done with regen.

Animats• 4 years ago

Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed.

Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side.

There's something to be said for a paddle shifter, but mostly for better control at low speed. For parking and off-road use, it can be helpful to map more pedal angle to a range of low speeds. This is more like the high/low range lever found on off-road vehicles and tractors than like a stick shift.

Mode switches are undesirable because they lead to "wrong mode" accidents. This is an ongoing problem with aircraft automation.

Behavior with zero accelerator and brake is an interesting question. Should the vehicle creep slowly forward? That's a classic feature, or bug, of automatic transmissions. Some automatic transmissions had anti-creep mechanisms to prevent this. If the vehicle comes to a full stop, should releasing the brake initiate creep? Should the vehicle roll back if on a hill? Some cars have "hill holders" to prevent that. For an electric car, those are all design decisions - the power train has no inherent behavior.

kayodelycaon• 4 years ago

Wrong mode accidents don’t need to happen. My Prius has three modes for acceleration curves: Eco, Normal, and Power. If you push the pedal down all the way, you get full power in any mode.

Note: power mode does not increase power, it just waits longer to turn off the ICE in order to improve throttle response

Taniwha• 4 years ago

Leaf's switch in and out of the B regen by shifting into drive a 2nd time - however they also have an "eco mode" switch on the steering wheel - if you normally drive with it on then pressing it does feel a lot like a shift up

Goz3rr• 4 years ago

The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side.

Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have a two speed gearbox. From when I drove the e-tron GT this shifting was almost completely imperceptible, no lurching of any kind even when launching it in sport mode. If you're driving in anything other than sport mode the car will spend most of its time in second gear anyways, not even using it from a standstill.

LorenPechtel8• 4 years ago

Yeah, I can definitely see merit to having a control that alters the responsiveness of the go pedal. I have near zero experience behind the wheel of an electric but back in the days of stick I appreciated having a low gear to creep around in and would actually have liked a lower gear occasionally.

jac_no_k• 4 years ago

Nissan Leaf with it's single pedal setup is like a driving a car in 2nd gear, where the speed can go down to zero and accelerate all the way up to highway speeds.

In single pedal mode, slowing down to a stop is a lifting the accelerator pedal completely and it will come to a stop in predictable manner. The brake pedal adds more regen and stronger application applies the brakes itself. From a stop, pushing down the accelerator starts moving the car. On hills, there is brake assist and works without any drama. Operating in reverse is the same way.

In dual pedal mode, or classic operations. While under motion, lifting the accelerator has a bit of regen until about 7kph and then creeps forward. To come to a complete stop, the brake pedal is necessary. From a stop, lifting the brake pedal starts the creep forward. This being an electric, even on inclines, the creep forward is consistent. Reverse is the same way.

At slow speeds, ie parking, it is easier to have the creep mode. Controlling speed with the brake pedal feels better. However, with experience, single pedal slow speed works well, just have to feather the throttle.

I've set the car to default to two pedal setup on start. I hit the single pedal mode switch every time I'm driving. It works well in a shared car setup. I do find it more weird to now drive with two pedals, but using the brakes still comes up even with single pedal driving, so if I do "forget" which mode I'm in, I'll still use the brakes when the car isn't slowing down enough.

Regarding the simulated legacy behavior, ie rolling back on the hill or changing torque. This is in the same line as simulating gearing in a CVT and simulating engine noise. I don't find it appealing and do hope car manufacturers have it as a configurable item, like Nissan has done with the one pedal driving. Here in a Japan, even the noise generator to warn pedestrians can be turned off.

terrio2• 4 years ago

I have an L button in my EV car and two settings are way enough.

Fine-tuning this doesn't really add any value

kvark• 4 years ago

When would you actually need to not have the max regen braking? You can always just push the drive pedal slightly to let the car know you aren’t slowing down, instead.

hbarka3• 4 years ago

Yes but constantly feathering like this causes foot fatigue.

danbolt• 4 years ago

When I’ve driven a Nissan Leaf, I almost keep it entirely in B mode. Keeping the battery level up feels almost gamified.

zcw100• 4 years ago

I love driving manual transmission cars but I really don't like this. It's like cosplay for cars. The simulated experience makes it very uncool. I'd rather just let the manual transmission have one last dignified drive into the sunset.

itronitron• 4 years ago

why should manual transmissions be limited to only petroleum powered engine? Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Analemma_• 4 years ago

Electric motors don’t need manual (or indeed, any) transmissions because they have a basically-flat torque curve across their entire RPM range. The only options for an electric motor are fake transmission or no transmission, and the parent is arguing for the latter and against “transmission cosplay”. A real manual transmission on an electric car would have no point.

csw-001• 4 years ago

If the artificial version is so life like you can’t tell it’s not a “real” transmission does it pass the “touring test”?

hello639• 4 years ago

Damn you. Here, take my upvote.

salmo2• 4 years ago

It all depends on the clutch to me. My ADHD is so satisfied by a manual. I’m engaged in the machine. It’s fun and you don’t need a real sports car.

But paddle shifters do nothing for me. There’s no feel to it. It’s more like 3 on the tree.

If the clutch gives it feel and control, I’m in.

Sadly, finding a real manual is hard these days. Most cars don’t offer them. My Honda is stuck in 1 package with a mid-2000s style dash. Still fun to drive.

I should look and see if I could retrofit an Apple Car Play/ Android Auto system in it…

thatfrenchguy• 4 years ago

As a ADHD person, driving an EV is even more engaging, as you can precisely get the speed you want with your right foot. It’s amazing.

raxxorraxor• 4 years ago

A few years ago a manual could really help to fine tune car performance, but a modern automatic transmission is just superior to anyone switching gears. Especially if you have a strong motor with a high torque that can polish any slip clutch in a second.

I would really like a modern car without shitty media systems. A desktop PC with mouse and keyboard would be awesome, directly attached to any sensor periphery and the coffee machine of course.

sangnoir2• 4 years ago

It's like cosplay for cars

Exactly: a fun activity that's enjoyable to practitioners, and doesn't hurt those who do not partake of it. You wouldn't ban cosplaying if you had the power, would you?

snshn• 4 years ago

People naturally seem to crave struggle. Probably part of the mating game, can't find any other easy explanation.

iancmceachern• 4 years ago

I called this! It's in a HN comment I placed a few weeks ago.

guenthert2• 4 years ago

And I thought Toyota had a winner with the Prius. I really like mine (2nd generation, >100kmi, still going strong). I'm a big fan of their "power sharing device" (PSD -- otherwise known as planetary gears). Aside the economics and (fairly) eco-friendliness, it drives quite nice, very smooth. Under the right conditions (flat, smooth road), it feels like gliding. I ride motorcycles too and I learned to drive on a stick shift, but in a car, it's just silly. You want what from me? Selecting the proper gear? What next, adjusting oil pressure?

nielsbot• 4 years ago

Setting the choke properly... if anyone remembers those.

psychomugs• 4 years ago

As a driver of a manual Miata older than I am, I was somewhat pleasantly surprised by this idea. I find this similar to the Fujifilm line of digital cameras with analog-style exposure dials and optical viewfinders; the affordances are objectively worse and largely unnecessary compared to the PASM mode selectors found in almost every other line of camera today, but they make all the difference between the feel of shooting a computer with a lens versus a proper dedicated camera.

I'm glad someone is trying to save the manual transmission baby from the ICE bathwater.

givemeethekeys• 4 years ago

Maybe this will drive more ICE to electric conversions.

dieselgate• 4 years ago

This is awesome, not having a manual transmission is one of the biggest drawbacks of modern cars for myself and presumably many others Edit: I do have questions about efficiency because I was assume an EV manual may actually be less efficient than an automatic or single speed trans

asdfk-12• 4 years ago

Toyota Tercel SR5, VW Diesel Rabbit, Toyota Pickup, Tacoma, etc. are all enjoyable to drive with a standard (manual) transmission.

It is also a joy to be able to service and replace the clutch when required. Here's to hoping Toyota doesn't break with their history of having vehicles that are easy to work on with cheap plentiful parts available from the dealer even 30 years after it rolls off the production line.

Trying to replace a battery pack on my Nissan Leaf has been a nightmare. Rather than supporting owners, they seem to prefer you treat the vehicle as disposable, given availability, cost, and needed tools to service the EV.

adultSwim• 4 years ago

I miss my old Honda Insight. One of the first hybrids, it had a manual transmission and got 70 mpg commuting at 70 mph.

kurupt213• 4 years ago

A transfer case with a clutch and manual shifter…is innovative enough for a patent?

Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

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