Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/05/10/getting-1password-7-ready-for-the-mac-app-store/

by okket • 8 years ago

364 473 8 years ago

blog.agilebits.com

waterphone• 8 years ago

…but they will still be selling individual non-subscription licenses through their own website, so anyone who wants to avoid a subscription can still do so.

rcarmo2• 8 years ago

Still, this is a trend I will have nothing to do with if at all possible. And besides subscriptions, version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me.

On one hand, password managers in browsers are becoming nearly good enough to cover for 80% of my use cases, and most of the other 20% boil down to convenience (ease of pasting, updating, etc.)

I don't like the idea of being forced to move to a subscription on my Mac and on iOS for diminishing returns in feature improvements -- and I've been using 1Password for many years now, so the need to finance new features is something that I understand but have seen little return from.

By all means ensure you can sustain revenue, but beware of inflated subscription prices.

(I've been keeping tabs on alternatives for a while now, so I will likely not upgrade to 1Password 7)

Spooky23• 8 years ago

Anyone making software wants Abobe/Microsoft margins and enterprise like recurring revenue for their random product.

At least in the case of 1password the rate isn’t usurious, but the biggest problem they have is due to a business decision to make the product dependent on a SaaS-like service delivery model.

tadasv• 8 years ago

What alternatives do you have in mind? I was thinking the same, but haven't done much research yet. I definitely want to have more control over my passwords.

tzs4• 8 years ago

And besides subscriptions, version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me.

What do you mean by "only sync using their back-end"?

yladiz• 8 years ago

version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me

Are you sure about this? My understanding is that they will support other places to sync, like iCloud, as in previous versions.

akerl_6• 8 years ago

I am using 1Password 7 right now and have several local vaults and several vaults that are synced via Dropbox, so I'm not sure what you mean.

xoa2• 8 years ago

And besides subscriptions, version 7 will only sync using their back-end, which is not acceptable for me.

What. I'm using 1Password 7 with a standalone license. I installed the beta, paid the $40 it cost for a license, and it works fine with iCloud and Dropbox same as always, I moved right from 1Password 4 and the only change I did was to purposefully force a resync so that all shared keychains would be updated from the ancient format to the newer one (if you were on 1P6 that wouldn't be necessary).

I'm not a fan of their subscription efforts because I think it's actively subtracted from what they could have done for the standalone version, and I don't think they've been fully honest about it which absolutely rankles. They talk big about benefits but they don't actually acknowledge costs or the profit motive. Even so there is a really oddly high load of objectively, trivially disproved FUD swirling around these HN articles about them now and I don't fully understand why.

preek• 8 years ago

Good timing that I moved all my passwords from 1Password to Emacs and GPG one year ago. It’s a pity; I’ve been a very happy customer for a long time, had licenses for multiple machines and was happy enough to pay for the updates.

But my data shall be my data, again. I’m not paying for an app that I regularly have to buy an upgrade for and which doesn’t give me the opportunity to hold my data locally after explicitly having this as a selling proposition for many years.

micv• 8 years ago

They're still selling standalone versions for MacOS & Windows that run off local storage. Doesn't seem like they're doing multi-OS license bundles anymore, though, so it's gonna run expensive if you use more than one OS.

bwoodruff23• 8 years ago

This is accurate. In general / on average standalone vaults require more support, and the price of licensing compared to subscription pricing reflects that.

Ben Woodruff

AgileBits

shortoncash• 8 years ago

Could you comment on your emacs setup? I see a few threads on this from Google, but just curious what your setup is and maybe some tidbits about the pros and cons of this kind of setup. Thanks in advance.

akerl_6• 8 years ago

People keep bringing this up, and it feels like a major failure of Agilebits marketing approach.

The subscription service changes the frequency at which you pay Agilebits; it does not mandate how you store your data. 1Password 7 continues to allow all the kinds of local/Dropbox/etc vaults that prior versions allowed.

If somebody at Agilebits is reading this thread: look around at these comments. The lack of clear information about local storage in the subscription model is causing massive levels of customer concern.

microtonal4• 8 years ago

I think it is likely that they want to hide this option, as they have hidden the standalone version. I think their long-term plan is to have everyone on their subscription with data stored in the 1Password cloud.

This reduces support and development load (no need to support local/Dropbox/Wifi sync with all its edge cases) and guarantees montly/yearly payments.

bpicolo4• 8 years ago

The local storage model is only really desirable for the more paranoid subset of software/IT folk, and those people have a lot more options than just 1password because they're technically savvy enough to work with open source solutions. Their actual target market is drastically larger than that subset of users.

roustem31• 8 years ago

I understand where you are coming from and we thought about advertising this feature.

However, it would not be the best option for most of the customers. They would have to understand how to take care of local vaults, including syncing, backups, etc. It is really an advanced feature for very technical audience.

spv• 8 years ago

I have been using Bitwarden for some time now. It’s an open source password manager. There are apps for all major platforms and extensions to all major browsers. Checkout https://bitwarden.com/

ringshall2• 8 years ago

To be precise, their base software is Free software, licensed under the AGPLv3. The also distribute non-Free (and non-Open Source, and non-gratis) software.

Their base software has an artificial limit in terms of number of users and number of 'collections', which goes contrary to the ethics of Free software.

mitchty4• 8 years ago

Boo, I was looking for something that had a cli and integrated with every browser as well as had an ios app.

I've not looked again recently but lastpass is the only thing I've found that fits those bills.

shadowmint• 8 years ago

How can this be an issue if their base software is open source? Just recompile it with the numbers upped, surely?

xxkylexx3• 8 years ago

This is not correct. All of Bitwarden source code is 100% open source. Even the few features that are paid. https://github.com/bitwarden

tajen3• 8 years ago

which goes contrary to the ethics of Free software.

No it doesn’t. Free software doesn’t have to be free: Even on the GPL page it’s written that it’s even ok to sell free software. It’s only unethical if you equate OSS to software communism, but that’s another topic.

So anything that encourages the user to either use the freemium, then either dive into the code or either pay, is ethically correct. After all, you can download their AGPL, knock the limit, and redistribute. At which point you’ll be a contributor and while you’re at it, you’ll probably make a few other improvements: it means effectively free for contributors, which is awesome. See, it articulates quite well gratis, contributors and funding.

It’s only designed to make enterprises pay, which is good because they can “donate” huge sums for good software, so it funds the open-source community quite well. And it retains the qualities of OSS: You know what you install, you’re not tied to the editor if he dies, and if they stop improving the software, a contributor can take over their code and become more famous. Win-win-win.

hannibalhorn• 8 years ago

Interesting in that you can host your own instance of their cloud server, but I really prefer something that uses standard cloud storage mechanisms (Dropbox, iCloud, etc.) for sync and works on top of that.

Like others here, I'll probably be reevaluating my choice when it feels like it's time to upgrade. For me, some of the open source solutions are perfect as far as the underlying storage format and sync technology, but lack good browser extensions that already understand all the quirks of various sites. That's the kind of thing that a commercial product can tend to do a better job at.

byproxy2• 8 years ago

It's simple enough to do with some version of KeePass. I'm currently using https://keeweb.info/ and Keepass2Android.

gergles2• 8 years ago

I use Enpass for this, which uses any kind of regular cloud storage backend and has a fully-featured desktop client and browser fill plugins for free. The mobile clients cost money ($10 per platform, once) which I think makes perfect sense.

y_molodtsov6• 8 years ago

1password is also supported by many mobile apps (on iOS at least).

toyg• 8 years ago

I've been an early adopter and really they are coming in leaps and bounds. The only complaint I have is that integration with iOS apps is very very spotty, but I believe that's an issue with Apple muscling 3rd-parties away from that field (and to a certain degree, an issue with developers not following best practices in their apps).

DavideNL4• 8 years ago

Looks awesome. The only drawback i see is it doesn't support iCloud.

Personally i wouldn't want to store my passwords with the same company that creates the (encryption)software.

And i definitely wouldn't self-host (why burden yourself with the management of data-backups/updates/etc. when iCloud is available for free...)

slig2• 8 years ago

+1 for bitwarden. Recently I've become a subscriber because I love their service and I wanted to support them.

drivingmenuts2• 8 years ago

I'm glad they're at least offering non-subscription licenses. I hate feeling like I'm having to buy the software over and over again, just to get security updates.

While 1Password works better than the rest of the pack, they're not exactly a fountain of new, needed features.

mtkd• 8 years ago

I've used 1password since 2010 when I paid $69.95 for a family license.

It seems to need upgrading for each new version of OSX - but I still only use the features now that I used in 2010.

nsarafa• 8 years ago

I lost faith in 1Password when they forced me into the subscription model despite paying full price for the product years ago

chorsestudios• 8 years ago

Came here to say this. I lost a lot of customer loyalty for 1Password after they did this to me. Unless I missed it, no mention of the price of version 7 in the blog post.

preya2k• 8 years ago

They announced a price for the windows version. It will be $65, and you get a $25 discount if you've been using the beta version. I assume Mac licenses will cost the same.

Source: https://blog.agilebits.com/2018/03/20/introducing-1password-...

acdha• 8 years ago

How did they force you into the subscription model?

bdcravens5• 8 years ago

This. You can still use it with local vaults or sync with something like Dropbox.

hs862• 8 years ago

They needed to rewrite their Windows version from scratch multiple times and their first major release from this rewrite marathon was 1 Password 6 which had no support for local vaults.

This looked like a clear deprecation of their local vault support but their Mac and Android versions never dropped support for those. I don't know if AgileBits ever planned to drop that from the other versions but after some vocal feedback from their users they stated that local vaults will remain.

The upcoming 1 Password 7 is the first release after the rewrite to support local vaults again on Windows. (BTW, their previous Version 4 for Windows with local vaults was still supported during the 1 Password 6 timeline. Afair, they stopped to sell stand alone licences for those after a while.)

SirensOfTitan3• 8 years ago

I don’t really get this perspective. You can continue using the version of 1Password that you bought without issue. The expectation that your purchase years ago should entitle you to updates forever is pretty ridiculous.

Barrin923• 8 years ago

when utility or productivity tools are offered at a fairly steep price point as 1password was people usually have a reasonable expectation to receive long-term upgrades.

It's not ridiculous at all because it generally is the norm.

fapjacks4• 8 years ago

Surely you're not implying that it's a ridiculous expectation when that's what the company advertised, are you?

pier254• 8 years ago

I agree. See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17113765

eecc• 8 years ago

I’m very happy with Safari and the macOS keychain app. Indeed if apple allowed access to un-sandboxed apps I’d be happy to share with Chrome

greggarious3• 8 years ago

I've been using KeepassXC (KeePass w/ macOS GUI elements) and enjoying it. It's a little simple (you just copy and paste the PW). It doesn't do fancy autofill but there's support for pretty much every OS.

(I use Spideroak to sync the DB across devices)

NMDaniel• 8 years ago

KeepassXC does have a browser extension for Firefox & Chrome.

I use Syncthing to sync it among devices, it's open source and fairly simple to use(compared to other DIY cloud apps)

greggarious3• 8 years ago

KeepassXC does have a browser extension for Firefox & Chrome.

Yeah, but IIRC it doesn't on iOS? I dunno, it hasn't been a big pain point.

My solution has to use the Firefox password manager for low value things (like Hacker News), and manually c/p for the higher value (bank, retirement account, etc).

(Maybe I'm overly paranoid but I don't like to put high value passwords into the cloud)

tajen3• 8 years ago

Guys, why not Keychain, the default password manager of macOS?

pvg11• 8 years ago

iCloud Keychain is Safari-only.

xab9• 8 years ago

Because it's crossplatform. I can open the kdbx file on ios, mac, win and linux. Probably elsewhere too, but these are the ones I use.

greggarious3• 8 years ago

Guys, why not Keychain, the default password manager of macOS?

Because keepass files are cross platform. macOS, iOS, android and all the flavors of Linux support it.

I also strongly prefer having a locally stored password DB on the device rather than letting it sit in the cloud. (Even though I have an admittedly strong passphrase)

himom2• 8 years ago

Yeah, I use the very old KeepassX 0.9.x because dev jumped the shark after that. I should have a look at XC. Ty.

My setup uses iCloud, Box and Google Drive to sync the kdb.

drej• 8 years ago

I honestly can’t remember when I last paid for 1Password, yet I use it on my Mac and iOS devices (since 2011 it seems!). It never prompts me, it just works. I don’t follow the pricing policy changes, the only thing I know is I don’t want a subscription. I just want to pay for this great piece of software.

So I hope this just means I’ll shell out $50 or so and be done for a few years? If so, then great.

Bud2• 8 years ago

It doesn't mean that, they are aggressively making sure it will never mean that again, and it definitely won't be fifty bucks for a few years. (It's $36/yr.)

pvg11• 8 years ago

You can buy 1Password 7 standalone right now.

majidazimi• 8 years ago

Office 365 gives you a full office suite (including outlook) + 1TB of online storage + 50GB ad-free mail for 70$/year. According to complexity rules, 1Password shall ask for 36$/century.

awesomepeter• 8 years ago

An alternative which lets you host your data is Enpass. I've been using it but I'm not sure how secure it really is.

sigzero3• 8 years ago

I've been using it but I'm not sure how secure it really is.

Then why use it? That seems like an important detail for a password manager.

cygned2• 8 years ago

I really like 1Password, it has been my daily driver for years. The creators gifted me versions for macOS and iOS years ago, so I never had to pay for it - which I would have done happily and, in fact, just recently did.

But the push to the cloud versions gives me headache. I don’t want to sync using their cloud - I actually sync using a WiFi server. While it’s (still) possible to obtain the standalone versions, it’s difficult to find them. And I expect that in a few years, they’ll be gone completely.

I am looking into Bitwarden at the moment as a self-hosted alternative but I haven’t decided yet.

akerl_6• 8 years ago

It's worth noting (and not super obvious because of their marketing) that "getting a subscription" and "using their cloud sync" are not a mutual requirement. You can pay via subscription and continue using local/Dropbox/etc vaults.

This part was super confusing to me until I dug deeper when a friend upgraded.

So the primary impact of switching from standalone license to subscription, if you're planning on using 1Password for a while, is that instead of paying a larger chunk of money every so often when they drop a new major version, you move to paying a flat couple bucks a month or larger chunk per year.

cygned2• 8 years ago

Thanks for pointing that out, that was, indeed, not clear to me either. But I expect this will change at some point, for the sake of simplicity for end users. Giving up security for convenience.

ken3• 8 years ago

I've used 1Pw local sync for years, and it's very finicky. When I've contacted support, they only offered suggestions like "restart the app", or "upgrade to the latest version" (even though there's nothing in the changelog which seems possibly relevant). Some days I'll add two new passwords, sync to my other Mac (multiple times, even), and only one of them is transferred.

The move to their own "cloud" as the primary sync system pretty much ensures other sync methods will never get properly fixed. I wouldn't have recommended 1Pw to people looking for non-cloud sync in the past, and now I definitely wouldn't.

tzs4• 8 years ago

So the primary impact of switching from standalone license to subscription, if you're planning on using 1Password for a while, is that instead of paying a larger chunk of money every so often when they drop a new major version, you move to paying a flat couple bucks a month or larger chunk per year.

One thing that is not clear to me is what happens with the subscription license if you go a long time without internet access. With the standalone license, it checks the validity of the license when I enter it, and then I'm good as far as I've been able to tell forever more.

If I take a laptop with a 1Password subscription, fully validated and synced, and spend 6 months with no internet access, will 1Password continue working?

Remember, 1Password is often used for more than just internet passwords, so wanting to use it with no internet access is not unreasonable.

kalleboo2• 8 years ago

The developer's comments on the article contradict what you're saying:

1Password 7 from the Mac App Store will only support our hosted service, as that’s what you’re purchasing with a 1Password membership. If you install from our website, you’ll have to option to use a standalone vault synced via iCloud if you purchase a standalone license, or use our hosted service if you purchase a 1Password membership.
As it stands, though, how you purchase 1Password is intrinsically tied to where you store your vaults and how you sync them

Groxx10• 8 years ago

So I asked on Twitter, got an answer: https://twitter.com/1Password/status/998337650380738560

Assuming that's correct (since the blog post still strikes me as vague), the answer is clear in their reply: memberships are exclusively cloud, standalone licenses are exclusively local backups / sync.

microtonal4• 8 years ago

But the push to the cloud versions gives me headache. I don’t want to sync using their cloud - I actually sync using a WiFi server.

But it has nice benefits as well, they have a Chrome/Firefox extension (1Password X) that goes with their cloud that works on Linux. Understandably, it would be harder for them to offer this on top of Dropbox or Wifi sync.

Groxx10• 8 years ago

There's no requirement whatsoever that 1Password X be exclusive to a privately-run cloud. Easier to build, possibly (though since it includes the difficulty of building the cloud service in the first place... oh hell no, 100x harder), but it could work just as well with manual syncing (point to a url -> download the backup, or just give it the file).

tzs4• 8 years ago

While it’s (still) possible to obtain the standalone versions, it’s difficult to find them. And I expect that in a few years, they’ll be gone completely

They mentioned somewhere on their site (I don't remember exactly where...it might have been in an answer to a question on the forums) that one of the points of 1Password 7 is to bring the standalone versions up to parity with the subscription version.

Right now, standalone and subscription are essentially different products, with all new feature work going into the subscription product. With 1Password 7, they become essentially one product with different licensing options.

It sure didn't sound like they plan to get rid of standalone.

roustem31• 8 years ago

Every release of 1Password includes both subscription and standalone features. The download is available here: https://1password.com/downloads/

We always try to implement the new features for both standalone and subscription customers, when it is possible. There are features that are based on the server doing the heavy lifting (permissions, travel mode, account recovery, backups, item history) and they are not available in the standalone mode.

roustem31• 8 years ago

If you are looking for a standalone version of 1Password then it is exactly the same version: https://1password.com/downloads/

We do not make two different versions of the app.

mychael2• 8 years ago

1Password does not care about loyal users who have been there since the beginning. They care about getting new subscriptions. Fair enough, I'll just take my business elsewhere.

bdcravens5• 8 years ago

How often did you upgrade?

pier254• 8 years ago

Yeah that's what I did too.

bwoodruff23• 8 years ago

I’m sorry we’ve made you feel that way. What is it that causes these feelings for you? I certainly won’t deny that we feel strongly that for the vast majority of customers membership is going to provide the best experience, and so that is primarily what we talk about. But we’ve done a fair bit of work to keep standalone vaults and licensing.

Ben Woodruff

AgileBits

PakG14• 8 years ago

With all these subscription-only apps that are proliferating, I am curious how many enterprising app developers would be interested in making and marketing "cloudless" apps that rely on up-front high prices for revenue, but neverending free updates (mostly bug fixes, I would hope). With GDPR, this seems like it would be actually be easier to deliver.

Of course growth numbers may suck, given how hard it is to make it for any app these days. Long-term growth would probably actually not be sustainable because if it blows up, there is no additional revenue down the road from lack of subscription, and also no network effects to power exponential growth in terms of market share. As far as I can tell, if you're not going to do subscription, there's no way to force users to pay to upgrade to a new version (new features) in the Apple App Store, not sure about Google Play. Your only option is to maybe create a new separate app that's able to import data from the old app, but that seems tacky to me. So, this really wouldn't be a big long-term play at all. But I imagine that there must be short-term markets out there willing to pay for apps that don't keep their data and usage hostage.

I'm myself thinking of making an app like this for budget tracking, just because I haven't found any out there these days that don't require neverending subscriptions and also fit my unique needs. Cloudless is also fine for me, as my phone is storage enough, or if it isn't enough, maybe use my iCloud storage, Dropbox storage, Google Drive, OneDrive, etc for holding the data? Besides that, it'll finally give me the kick in the behind I need to finally learn Swift, which I've been meaning to do for a while. Alas, I imagine cost of customer acquisition may be too high to make even a short-term profit.

So... would this just be a small project for me to prove I can learn Swift and show future employers that I can make smartphone apps too? Or is there actually a real business here and in so many other niches because some people hate being locked into subscription fees? Curious if anyone else has some thoughts.

codetrotter2• 8 years ago

I'm myself thinking of making an app like this for budget tracking, just because I haven't found any out there these days that don't require neverending subscriptions and also fit my unique needs.

Did you try GnuCash? It's not user friendly but a friend of mine swears by it.

https://www.gnucash.org/

Rovanion• 8 years ago

I heard there was a more user friendly FLOSS program called Homebank, though I've never used it myself.

geff82• 8 years ago

This software is slow and a real pain to use for anything else than personal finances or the 12 bills a year you write as a contractor.

PakG14• 8 years ago

Target user will also be my wife who would really love a super user friendly app. Figure it'd be a good test of my design skills also. I've really only made enterprise stuff in the past where good UI was not really paramount, as long as it was usable. Would love to get better at that too. So this is really just an exercise in my mind at the moment, nothing more.

dingo_bat4• 8 years ago

This article is not about subscription only apps. 1password is available both as a standalone app and a subscription based one. But on the Apple app store they decided to offer only the subscription variant because of apples restrictions.

PakG14• 8 years ago

Right, I believe that jives with my point about how this philosophy of app deployment doesn't make for a good long-term business. I guess their line of thinking is the same as mine, but they come to a different conclusion because they have long-term concerns to think about.

JustSomeNobody• 8 years ago

Have you tried ledger-cli for budgeting?

PakG14• 8 years ago

Thing is that my wife is also a target user, and she does not have an inclination to use a command line-based app.

TomK322• 8 years ago

Ha, I've started a budget tracking (more like forcasting) app two weeks ago. Rails and mongodb and will be a subscription app.

Have a look at hledger and ledgerCLI, the former has a lot of its functions in an API and you could thinker about using that as a base for a nice UI in something that is not haskell.

DavideNL4• 8 years ago

budget tracking

You might want to check this out too: https://github.com/firefly-iii/firefly-iii#introduction

s73v3r_2• 8 years ago

" I am curious how many enterprising app developers would be interested in making and marketing "cloudless" apps that rely on up-front high prices for revenue, but neverending free updates (mostly bug fixes, I would hope). "

One of the biggest reasons that subscriptions are proliferating is because it's really hard to make money with the old model. People don't want to pay large up front prices.

"As far as I can tell, if you're not going to do subscription, there's no way to force users to pay to upgrade to a new version (new features) in the Apple App Store, not sure about Google Play."

You can put a V2 in the store, and stop updating the V1. It's a terrible solution, but it's as good as it's gonna get.

alceta• 8 years ago

As a long time 1password user (at least since 2009), I switched to Bitwarden late last year and did not regret it.

senthilnayagam• 8 years ago

I did not pay for a subscription software, I bought a password manager which stored password locally.

I also don't want to pay for a upgrade just because apple upgraded the OS.

I now only buy mac software on Mac App Store.

Apps which I have not renewed include 1password, screenflow, textmate, vmware Fusion,

Paid Products I wish were on Mac App Store with free updates. Sublime, Paragon NTFS , printopia

whitepoplar• 8 years ago

But TextMate isn't a subscription, is it?

dingo_bat4• 8 years ago

So you want perpetual free updates? I think your expectations might be a tad unrealistic.

Casseres2• 8 years ago

It should be built into the initial price. And perpetual is unrealistic, but 10 years is not.

Microsoft provides 5 years of Mainstream Support and 5 years of Extended Support at no additional cost (cost is built into the initial license fee).

Heck, I would more trust software that says 10 years of garunteed support rather than lifetime support. Too many companies fudge the meaning of "lifetime", and 10 years blows Google's 2 + 1 years of Android support out of the water.

s73v3r_2• 8 years ago

"Paid Products I wish were on Mac App Store with free updates"

Why should you get free updates, though?

skinnymuch• 8 years ago

Textmate 2 is on Github. Was there ever a second paid update?

bpicolo4• 8 years ago

While I could understand people being upset about this, I pay for a 1password family subscription. It really is a terrific investment. As far as subscription services go it's about the best bang for my buck that I get. A sustainable service model is important for something I rely on so much - especially something that needs to keep on security lockdown.

Also makes it easy for the family to share hulu, netflix, whatnot.

SirensOfTitan3• 8 years ago

I just switched over as a long time standalone user, and I completely agree. The 1Password Families subscription provides a tremendous amount of value and the product just keeps getting better.

ajmurmann• 8 years ago

What value does it provide beyond the old family license pack + syncing of shared vaults via free Dropbox tier?

bpicolo4• 8 years ago

Probably nothing other than ease of use, but the old model isn't part of the equation for me. 5 bucks a month for my whole family to have good password security practices, and for 1password to sustain continuous updates, is a great deal.

roustem31• 8 years ago

For families:

* Must simpler setup for sharing

* Permissions (read-only vaults, etc)

* Secret Key that is used in addition to the master password to better protect data stored in the cloud

* Account recovery (can be done by the family organizer for other family members if they forget their password or lose the secret key)

* Travel mode

* Automatic backups

* Individual item history

* Multifactor Authentication (TOTP)

* Mac, Windows, Android, and iOS apps included

* Support for Linix and Chromebooks with the new 1Password X extension.

In addition to that, sync is faster and more reliable. There is no worries about Dropbox/iCloud throttling when you set up a new device, etc.

1Password Teams and Business have additional features that build on top of that.

DavideNL4• 8 years ago

I wonder if it's so much better than for example Bitwarden for families, which is $1/month. (https://bitwarden.com )

Also, the switch to the "1password cloud", instead of the already freely available iCloud/Google Cloud/Dropbox etc, just seems like a move to make people believe their expensive subscription are justified. There was absolutely no demand for a "1password cloud".

This entire push to subscription-hell makes me sick...

(i've had 1Password paid versions, OSX & iOS, for like 7 years btw.)

roustem31• 8 years ago

If you look at 1Password features, a lot of them are simply not feasible to implement without having a server-side component. Most of them revolve around sharing, permissions, automatic backups, account recovery, 2FA, etc.

Vault sharing is simply impossible with iCloud. Sharing with Dropbox requires manual set up of shared folders.

digianarchist2• 8 years ago

I'd give them the $5 a month for a subscription but I want to host the data on iCloud.

wilsonnb2• 8 years ago

There was plenty of demand for a "1password cloud" as you call it. It's one of my favorite features.

I like that I don't need a Dropbox, Google Drive, iCloud, OneDrive, etc. subscription for 1Password to work. It's convenient.

hs862• 8 years ago

I hate subscription models but with 1PW 7 I would have to pay +40 € for each the Mac and the Windows version and still have not access to new features like the travel mode or the CLI client.

AgileBits seems to be an honest company and they went the extra mile to backport some new features (TOTP) to their dated 1PW 4 codebase. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and try their subscription and should they ever turn 'evil', I know that alternatives like Bitwarden or Enpass are available and ready to import my 1PW vault.

roustem31• 8 years ago

Thank you, @hs86. We will not let you down!

xoa2• 8 years ago

I at least partly blame Apple and the MAS being such piece of shit for accelerating some of the sub trends we're seeing on the Mac now. It's really such a genuine shame, because in principle the MAS really could be an excellent idea, a way to unify and simplify a pain point of Mac use and boost security at a few levels without a need to alienate anyone or not support anything. Instead Apple had to make it an artificially pointlessly limited collection of tradeoffs and mediocrity.

In particular AgileBits is right about the missing upgrade pricing system really being a bummer. To this day Apple's decision to remove that remains one of the most perplexing decisions of anything they did with the MAS (or iOS App Store for that matter). The basic idea of paying just for marginal value added since original purchase whereas new purchasers are paying for the whole package from zero is an efficient, sensible and sustainable one that has supported the software industry well since the very beginning. Ongoing support of software costs money, particularly when Apple has made it another principle of theirs to be aggressive about pushing the platform forward vs backwards compatibility. No upgrades (or volume discounts or anything else) is still such a mind blowingly stupid decision in every respect. It's forced developers to make some tough choices unnecessarily, and IAP and subs are one way to go at it.

microtonal4• 8 years ago

I agree. Many of the applications that have moved out of the app store (e.g. Dash) have also ditched sandboxing.

Going back to the situation where every application can read your whole home directory is a large regression.

(Of course, non-MAS apps can also be sandboxed, but many developers do not do it.)

bwoodruff23• 8 years ago

1Password 7 for Mac is sandboxed, regardless of where you download it from.

Ben Wooodruff

AgileBits

makecheck2• 8 years ago

I remember when developers gathered at one point and submitted complaints in unison about the sorry state of Bug Reporter (rdar) at the time. I never heard if Apple responded to this directly but the tool did receive an update around the same time. Developers need to rally again, e.g. submitting the same rdar from 400,000 different people, on the topic of App Stores.

AdmiralAsshat• 8 years ago

So remember when 1Password claimed it was superior to LastPass for only requiring you to pay a one-time fee and not storing all of your stuff in the cloud?

Good times.

shinratdr4• 8 years ago

To be fair, it still does all that stuff.

I get that these moves make people nervous, and rightfully so. But as it stands every version of 1Password in active development (not including maintenance mode):

* Can be licensed standalone.

* Supports local & Dropbox vaults.

* Was released within the last year, actively supporting those features.

The only feature they’ve actually killed off (by not baking into future clients) is WLAN sync. This is a regression for some, but personally I always found it super impractical.

I agree that how they are going about this doesn’t inspire confidence that these features will remain in the product, but to some extent it does.

While they downplay the hell out of it, 1Password 6 for Windows was a ground up rewrite that ditched local vaults and standalone licensing. Those features were reintroduced in 1Password 7 for Windows, which is a pretty big backtrack for them and requires renewed development effort.

AgileBits doesn’t always make the right decision. They develop opinionated software, like most good developers. However, just like the MAS-only decision they made with 1Password 4 and stood by for some time, eventually they do right by their customers.

1Password 7 for Windows is a great example of that. As much as they would love to go cloud only, they heard the feedback and brought back those two key features. At this point, I can’t expect much more than that.

curun1r4• 8 years ago

every version of 1Password in active development...Can be licensed standalone

This is incorrect. The command line client is subscription-only.

pier254• 8 years ago

eventually they do right by their customers

Not in my experience.

I moved to LastPass the moment Agile Bits decided to not support its (non subscription) 1Password paying customers in having a web access to the vault.

I had bought all 1Password versions + updates (Windows, Android, Mac, iOS) which put me well above $100. One day I simply couldn't use 1Password online, which I relied on for Chrome OS use. Dropbox decided, rightfully, that the public folder shouldn't be used as a static web server, which is what 1Password used as online vaults.

There was a long discussion in Agile Bits' forums about this issue. Agile Bits argued that it wasn't its responsibility to solve this since it was a Dropbox decision and its users could still store and sync the online vault manually on their own servers. I argued that losing automatic sync rendered the feature pretty much useless.

In any case, Agile Bits could have transitioned its users to the subscription model by either giving them subscription time or by offering an alternative to the Dropbox public folder, but it decided that its customers were not worth the effort.

I had a lot of respect for Agile Bits and 1Password, but this was a crappy way to treat its customers, specially considering 1Password was not a cheap product.

LastPass is not as elegant, but I'm happy with it.

kobayashi3• 8 years ago

Are you sure they’ve killed WLAN sync??

0culus5• 8 years ago

Although it's been said that they will continue supporting licenses through their website, they have made this feature _extremely_ difficult to find ever since introducing subscriptions. I've been a loyal user of 1Password for a long time, and I think it's great software. I use it on both my Macs, as well as on my iOS devices.

However, hiding the non-subscription feature is silly. I do not wish to add yet another subscription (especially something so crucial as my what manages my passwords; I need [edit] it to work, no questions asked), and I would be more than happy to purchase a new license for 1Password 7.

shinratdr4• 8 years ago

I agree they are burying the hell out of it, but as it stands licenses for 1Password 7 (which is still in beta on Mac & Windows) can only be purchased from within the client, as they want to test the order flow which was rebuilt in this version.

The Windows version of 1Password 7 still can’t be licensed, they haven’t built that part yet. The Mac version however can be purchased, and if you plan on sticking with it I would do so now, as the price will be much higher in the near future. Right now it’s being offered at 50% off.

0culus5• 8 years ago

Where is it on their website? I haven't been able to find it at all.

manicdee3• 8 years ago

Does this version support WiFi Sync with 1Password on iOS?

curun1r4• 8 years ago

I feel the same way and I'm starting to look towards alternatives. Despite having bought (or had bought for me, at various jobs) somewhere between 10 and 15 individual licenses, 1Password won't ever get another dime from me after the way they've treated non-subscription customers. In addition to making it confusing to use my license, the command-line doesn't work at all without a subscription and now other software that integrates with 1Password is being made subscription only.

Like you, I would have happily done a paid upgrade to 1Password 7, but a subscription to access my passwords is a non-starter. And after having been made to feel like a second-class citizen for so long, they've burned any good will I had for them and I'm done buying anything from them.

Mister_Snuggles3• 8 years ago

I feel the same way and I'm starting to look towards alternatives.

Enpass[0] is worth a look. Free on desktop, one-time fee on Mobile, sync via the cloud provider of your choice. Also available for Linux, which is what drew me to it.

[0] https://www.enpass.io/

slig2• 8 years ago

I've been very happy with bitwarden. It's free to use (and open source if you want to self host). They have a 10 USD/year subscription if you care to some premium features and/or supporting the company.

As a free user I've contacted their support twice and they replied within minutes.

AGKyle12• 8 years ago

Hi there,

Could you give me some details on what we've done to make you feel like a second-class citizen? I'm sorry if we've made you feel that way, it certainly isn't our intent but clearly we've done something that hasn't sat well with you.

Licenses aren't going away and we are definitely offering them for version 7. There are a variety of new features that both license and subscription users will see in version 7 as well.

The command line tool was made possible because our server component was written in Go and so we had a great deal of the work done as the command line tool is also written in Go. So there's a great deal of shared code there.

The original intent of the CLI was to allow administrators to automate the creation and deletion of users and vaults. They do this type of stuff all the time and having a tool accessible to them for this purpose was a goal of ours. It has the ability alter items and all that but I think for the most part it's used as an admin tool more than anything. Very little of this applies to the way the standalone vaults work.

Either way, I'd love to understand more about what we did to wrong you so I can pass that information along to the teams that need to see it.

Thanks,

Kyle

AgileBits

roustem31• 8 years ago

Most of the HN users reading this thread do understand the difference between licenses and subscriptions. It may seem strange but this is not the case for the vast majority of the users. We have customers emailing us about having a 1Password account/subscription since before 2015 (when we only had licenses).

We originally started with offering both licenses and subscription as equal options. Here is how it looked: https://web.archive.org/web/20160420141241/https://1password...

There was a lot of confusion with this design because people simply had no idea what to choose. It is ridiculous but we had many hundreds of customers purchasing both.

The subscription is a better option for most of our users because it takes care of so many things:

- no need to purchase separately on every platform

- no need to learn the difference between iCloud and Dropbox sync, and why sharing is not possible with iCloud option

- no need to learn how to set up a shared Dropbox folder

- no need to worry about backups when your computer or phone dies

- and more

Many of our long-time customers still use licenses and are happy with the existing setup and we want to keep them happy. This is the main reason we keep the licenses going and releasing new version for Mac and Windows support for licenses and standalone vaults.

manicdee3• 8 years ago

The standalone macOS app isn’t going to be much value to me if the iOS app requires a subscription though.

1Password accounts seem like a very attractive target for something like Stuxnet. I just can’t bring myself to put my trust in a corporation, given the history of pivots & acquisitions and subsequent licence changes & data repurposing.

ketralnis• 8 years ago

What is the future of dropbox sync between desktop and iOS? Am I right in assuming that since you keep only mentioning iCloud that it won't be possible? I can just decline to upgrade the desktop client, but I can't just choose to ignore updates to the iOS client.

0culus5• 8 years ago

Honestly, I will be happy if you continue to support licenses vs. subscriptions as an option + syncing with the cloud service of choice (I use iCloud). My use case is pretty simple. I don't need fancy integrations. I just want an easy to use solution that protects my passwords and enables me to use it across my Apple devices...which is what my (licensed) 1Password 6 does wonderfully for me now, across two Macs, my iPhone, and my iPad. For that feature set, I am willing to fork over for a new license at major versions. I just don't feel comfortable making my password management dependent on a subscription. Also, I would be more amenable to a subscription for a small amount for the iOS app (as that is more of a convenience than critical to my workflow; I use 1Password on the desktop much more frequently) so long as I can still purchase a license for my computers [edit] and have all the devices work together.

remybach• 8 years ago

I switched over to Enpass (https://www.enpass.io/) not too long ago and it's been great. At the time (about 2 years ago), it had the best feature parity with 1Password and it's continually gotten better over time.

tw042• 8 years ago

I have no idea why they insist on making this impossible to find.

Here are the license links:

https://1password.onfastspring.com/in-app/1password-7-for-wi...

https://1password.onfastspring.com/in-app/1password-7-for-ma...

robteix• 8 years ago

I have a family subscription of 1PW. I can easily share some password with my wife and our daughter is getting used to using a password manager before she's 10.

I totally empathize with those who refuse to use cloud/subscription services as, let's face it, there are a lot of bad actors doing crappy things with our data.

But for me 1Password seems like a small, honest company providing great quality service and software. I'm a happy customer.

gergles2• 8 years ago

But for me 1Password seems like a small, honest company providing great quality service and software.

Yes, I imagine because they have carefully crafted that image through blog posts and impression management. They have over 70 employees to write a password manager. 70!

wyclif• 8 years ago

But that's a bit specious. There are not 70 software developers at AgileBits engaged in writing the code for the product. A business like AgileBits requires a lot more overhead than just software engineering.

roustem31• 8 years ago

We are actually more than 100 people now. A big part of our team is dedicated to customer support. After all there are over 15 mln 1Password users and we get several thousand emails per day. There are over 30,000 businesses using 1Password.

We have designer and development teams for Mac/iOS (Objective-C, Swift), Windows (C#, .NET), Android (Java, Kotlin), browser extensions (JavaScript), 1Password server (Go), 1Password web client (TypeScript, ReactJS), command-line client (Go), SCIM/LDAP integration (Go, Docker, Kubernetes), and a ton of other smaller projects.

There is a Security Team that does security reviews, works with BugCrowd researchers, and does SOC 2 compliance. DevOps team works with AWS and Google Cloud.

We want to do more. We are hiring :)

gaius• 8 years ago

Stupid question: what does this do that iCloud Keychain doesn’t do?

SomeHacker442• 8 years ago

Among other things: TOTP.

y_molodtsov6• 8 years ago

iCloud Keychain is pretty good, but it tragically fails in the followings cases: * Any browser other than Safari. * Apps that MacOS/iOS don't parse for password fields for some reasons so you can't generate a password right there — and it's a huge pain to add them manually, practically impossible on iOS. * Cloud access (if you need your account and don't have any of your devices). Your Keychain is in the iCloud, but you can't access it from icloud.com

So Apple could easily make it much better but they haven't.

roustem31• 8 years ago

Multiple browsers, Windows, Linux, Chromebooks, encrypted documents and other item types, sharing, travel mode, item history, watchtower (security audit), ...

sgeisenh• 8 years ago

This just reminds me how excited I am for passwords to be replaced. We shouldn't need a third party application as an authentication shim for every service that we use. The high lock-in on password managers is also unnerving.

krautsourced• 8 years ago

After using (and loving and having paid for) 1P for years, I moved over to Enpass a year or so ago. Their clients are not as good as 1P's, but I simply neither want a subscription based service (what happens if they are bought / go under), nor do I want my passwords to reside on their servers (encrypted or not).

makecheck2• 8 years ago

There are at least two elements to software maintenance: one is adding truly new features, and the other is making stupid changes just to keep old features working as they always did (often due to platform or hardware changes, especially with Apple!).

I see Apple coughing up none of the costs that they create by regularly fiddling with their platforms and hardware in breaking ways, yet that is a big reason why software can’t be sensibly “bought once”. Now they’ve come up with a scheme where they not only don’t give developers discounts for maintaining software but actually take yet another cut.

Don’t judge developers too harshly.

Pulcinella• 8 years ago

Yes. I feel that, because of the currently constantly changing nature of hardware and software platforms, subscriptions are going to be the only way of sustaining a business. It’s no longer even software as a service, but software IS a service.

The only exceptions are situations where hardware and platforms change slowly or not at all. e.g. Single player video games (and even that is largely consoles), certain kinds of embedded, etc.

People are already becoming frustrated with all the subscriptions they have, though. People are “fine” with paying to maintain things like their home and car. The problem with software is that it doesn’t really “break” from use. Updating the platform and hardware around the software is what can break it. It would be like the pipes in your home are indestructible and never burst in winter, but they can explode when building codes update or the water treatment plant changes it’s equipment.

spronkey8• 8 years ago

I hope that it's only a matter of time before people start turning their pitchforks at Apple, Microsoft, maybe Google et al who are the perpetrators of the majority of this platform fiddling that stops software from working.

Mister_Snuggles3• 8 years ago

There are at least two elements to software maintenance: one is adding truly new features, and the other is making stupid changes just to keep old features working as they always did (often due to platform or hardware changes, especially with Apple!).

I'm OK with the model that VMware is using, at least on the Mac.

You buy version X, you have version X. Version X gets updates for some amount of time. Eventually, a Mac OS upgrade makes version X no longer work, so you have to pay an upgrade price to upgrade to version Y. There is no subscription, but there is regular income to the company to make the updates you describe.

pfranz• 8 years ago

I like that model, too, but at least for something like 1Password I can see two issues. You'll have people using older versions with possible security vulnerabilities. If you're using hosted passwords you have to deal with dealing with multiple versions of the client indefinitely (although, you'll probably have to deal with a bit of that anyway)

ricardobeat• 8 years ago

This is what this article is about. The App Store offers no mechanism for upgrade pricing, your only options are to 1. upgrade existing app (free for existing users) or 2. release a new app (full price for existing users).

SomeHacker442• 8 years ago

I would be okay with the subscription plan if they would allow for a permanent license after the subscription ends. Something like what JetBrains did. I was going to drop using JB software until they added that feature, and now I am a happy ”subscriber.”

I feel what galls people is that we buyers have nothing to show after ending a subscription, especially if we are not using anything “servicey” about said subscription.

heimidal3• 8 years ago

You can just buy a license to 1Password whenever you want, though... it’s not subscription only.

tgb2• 8 years ago

Can I use this space to ask how people actually use password managers on mobile? I got LastPass recently and put on it a good secure "correct horse battery staple"-type password. So now when I use accounts on my phone I have to type that password instead of my short, randomly generated, reused-all-the-time password. This means I'm more secure (no password reuse) but typing 30ish characters without error into my phone is tough! It usually takes me three tries and every time I curse my new password manager.

But the alternative seems to be staying logged in to LastPass which means it's just my four digit phone pin to get access to everything. I mean, I guess if someone takes my phone and bypasses my PIN then I've already lost basically everything. But at least I wouldn't also be signing them into my bank account. My phone doesn't have biometrics which I think would be my compromise if it had them.

robin_reala• 8 years ago

Yeah, it’s painful without biometrics. For my threat model I’m happy enough to use TouchID on Mac and FaceID on my iPhone to unlock, and then to type in on the occasional time I need to unlock it manually.

misterpigs• 8 years ago

I use 1pass on my phone. I have a long password (English phrase) that I only use with 1pass I guess I've entered it enough times on mobile that I don't mistype it often.

I use it to generate new passwords for whatever signups/apps I need on mobile, also for logging into websites on mobile. The workflow for password managers in mobile safari works very well.

I don't enable FaceID/TouchID/PIN for 1Password, but I do have it enabled for my device.

dwg• 8 years ago

Aside from using biometrics, which makes it much easier, you might consider using a long passphrase as the master password. A passphrase is easier to remember and to type than random characters. It’s what I do, and it’s pretty easy to type without mistakes on mobile too.

tgb2• 8 years ago

My password is a passphrase though. But you don't get autocorrect or swype functionality for typing passwords, understandably, so typing it is not easy (harder even because it grows in length for it's lower entropy per length).

cschmittiey• 8 years ago

If you're on Android 8 or above (yes, I know most people aren't) there's support for password managers filling passwords in almost any app. Some apps aren't well built and don't support it. As far as I can tell, it's not something the developer has to explicitly enable support for though.

Anyways, I use the Bitwarden app on my S8 (and previously HTC 10) and it works great. I tap a password field, Android asks me if I want to fill the password, I unlock my "vault" with my fingerprint, and tap the right account for that app. It's pretty easy.

LastPass and Bitwarden also can hook into accessibility features on Android 7, to enable most of the same features, but since it's not part of Android and baked in it doesn't work quite as well.

karimf• 8 years ago

Hey, thanks for telling. I've been using 1pass on android since a long time ago, and autofilling username and password is a real hassle. In the past the only way to do the autofill was to use the 1password keyboard, which is inconvenient for me to change keyboard every time filling a password. But I just try the new autofill feature on the Android 8, and it works like a charm. It supports autofill on native apps and webpage via Google Chrome as well.

burntsushi• 8 years ago

I use pass[1], which has an unofficial Android app[2]. When you select a password in the Android app, it lets you paste it to any text field using normal copy & paste. Clicking the password does the "copy" part of the operation automatically. After a brief timeout, the password is no longer available to be pasted.

[1] https://www.passwordstore.org/

[2] https://github.com/zeapo/Android-Password-Store

firepoet• 8 years ago

I absolutely love Enpass. Cost me a fixed $10 for all my iOS devices. I host my database on my local WebDAV (but there are many other options).

twblalock• 8 years ago

I use 1Password with Face ID on my iPhone, Touch ID on my iPad, and Touch ID on my Macbook Pro. The only time I have to type in my master password is when I use my Windows desktop at home.

I used to use LastPass and frankly it's far behind 1Password in user experience, especially on Apple devices.

roustem31• 8 years ago

1Password 7 supports Windows Hello. It is now my favourite way to unlock 1Password :)

jedisct1• 8 years ago

I use Enpass.

$10 once for mobile devices, free everywhere else, can use Dropbox/iCloud/Google Drive for password storage, no need for any subscription whatsoever.

And it can seamlessly import 1Password databases.

czbond• 8 years ago

Their approach is interesting; I currently use KeePassX and mobile was a huge pain. Thank you for posting about Enpass - going to try that out.

8ytecoder• 8 years ago

Both iOS and Mac App stores need options to allow developers to offer trials and paid upgrades.

pier254• 8 years ago

And easy refunds.

On Android if you uninstall an app before 2 hours after buying it, you get an automatic refund.

rmorey• 8 years ago

Why are people so vehemently opposed to the 1PW cloud sync service? For unenrypted data, I completely understand this. And in general, it's great to have the option to sync using whatever service you want. But the data that 1PW stores is encrypted up the wazoo and AB couldn't extract your passwords from it even if they wanted to. In their security document they even outline how useless it would be for a bad actor to even steal every bit of data they have. And if some day their data center suddenly explodes and all that data is lost, your data is cached on all your devices anyway, and it's trivial to just export to another password manager.

Am I mistaken?

nighthawk1• 8 years ago

I’d rather control the data myself. I view cloud hosted password providers as huge attack targets and they generally get hacked eventually (roboform, lastpass,etc). At least if you control where the data is stored your data can be kept off the radar so to speak.

y_molodtsov6• 8 years ago

As far as I remember nobody really had any problems after the LastPass hack, since the data was encrypted anyway?

rcarmo2• 8 years ago

Relying on a small, niche service to host something you rely upon daily is simply not a good long-term decision. I’d much rather rely on OneDrive or Dropbox for syncing, since the likelihood of their going away suddenly or being acquired by someone else who will tank the service is smaller. Not impossible, but more unlikely.

SpaethCo• 8 years ago

The key issue I have with the cloud service right now is it breaks the automated backup process I get with iCloud sync and their Mac client. My biggest concern isn't bad actor data theft or online service outages, it's silent corruption of data that takes weeks / months to surface.

With iCloud sync of a local vault, the client will automatically store backup copies of the database on the local filesystem. I can sync that file to local ZFS NAS storage and to offsite storage to maintain months/years of archives as desired.

Until there is an automated export/backup option with the Agilebits sync serivce, it's off the table for me.

alexnewman• 8 years ago

I still have no idea why people don't use pass. I put my trust in gpg and git

mychael2• 8 years ago

link?

Spivak• 8 years ago

https://www.passwordstore.org/

cdumler• 8 years ago

So, I'll join the chorus here by saying that I've picked up the subscription fee.

I've been using their software daily for over three years. During that time, they have consistently improved their product and have been open about issues (as far as I am concerned). I was a little irked when I saw the subscription model. I was like, "hey, I paid for this." So, I looked up how much I paid in licenses by looking them up.. in 1Password. Turns out I paid about $40 for the Mac, Windows, iOS, and Android clients. That's $40 over three years for something that I use daily.

Then, look at the $5/mo subscription for families. I get something that gives me access to all their software versions (Mac, Windows, iOS and Android) for five people, my entire family (if my cat ever decides to get a computer). I am a software professional. I pay for tools that keep me going and return me money because they offer me productivity. I pay for Things, Bear, iThoughts, and may other apps that have helped me greatly.

One important statement I make to people is: _the price for security is eternal vigilance_. There are always new ways things get attacked and new ways to be more secure. I realized that I was gladly willing to pay $60/year to keep me and my family going while keeping AgileBits running as well. If there was anything that deserves a subscription, it is your security software. If its any consolation, several of my developer friends feel the same way.

My two cents.

jiveturkey• 8 years ago

not just that there’s a cost to keeping this kind of software useful, for the subscription agilebits is actually adding value.

unlike say adobe.

archagon3• 8 years ago

As time goes on, I've gotten less and less comfortable using proprietary software for critical tasks. If 1Password were open source, I'd actually be pretty happy to subscribe. But as it stands, I have no faith that the product won't change out from under me in the future, whether due to a pivot, an acquisition, or some other reason. The incentives align in favor of the business, not the customer. IMHO, subscriptions are already pointing in that direction.

I'd rather use something like pass and deal with the downsides. (Though I admittedly haven't switched yet.)

samatman• 8 years ago

For me, something related: can I remove the data in a usable form? 1Password makes that easy, so like others here, I'm happy to pay them to perform the 'eternal vigilance' that secret-keeping entails.

selectodude• 8 years ago

https://github.com/OblivionCloudControl/opvault

opvault file access has open source tools. It would suck if they changed out from under me in the future (1password is the best password manager and it’s really not even close) but my passwords are at least accessible.

scarface745• 8 years ago

So if the app were open source and the maintainers decided to abandon it, are you going to download the code and keep it updated? If it is forked are you going to trust the new maintainers? Are you going to audit the source code?

mlindner• 8 years ago

There are open source 3d party applications on Linux that I've used to access 1Password password archives. The code is closed source but everything they're using to encrypt the passwords are open standards. You can build your own 3rd party open source platform to access them.

guelo• 8 years ago

Especially security related software companies, they have a tendency of degenerating into user-hostile malware businesses.

burnte3• 8 years ago

At some point you have to value people. The 1Password folks have never let me down, and have been very honest, so I trust them. The product has done nothing but improve over the years for me, increasing in value and ease of use. And then with how often LastPass has had security breaches, it was a no brainer for me to leave LastPass years ago, and I don't regret it.

casefields• 8 years ago

Bitwarden is the answer for your concerns. I've moved to it and never looked back.

https://bitwarden.com

m-p-3• 8 years ago

KeePass works for me, and it's available on all the platforms I use.

Khaine4• 8 years ago

I agree. I try and use solutions that have open source formats, and are preferably open source.

I have made an exception for 1Password, as it is so good. I hate subscription for software, unless there is a clear benefit. In this case, I don't see the benefit.

spronkey8• 8 years ago

I agree, especially around subscriptions. Too many light burnings already.

I use and love 1Password, but there's no way I'm switching to the subscription model. When my version stops working (either through incompatibility or serious security flaw), I'll begrudgingly find something else to use.

red_hare• 8 years ago

Just gonna piggyback off this and say the family plan is an amazing value if you have aging parents.

I recently upgraded to one, set up each of my parents with accounts, and moved all of their passwords out the physical and digital notes that their passwords were strung across and into 1password.

This means no more iCloud password resets every time they need an app or call me for IT support. It means I can help them securely manage their financial accounts and photos as they get older. I can share with them my Netflix login. And I sleep better at night knowing they’ll be aware when one of their previously common recycled passwords is compromised.

analogmemory• 8 years ago

The family plan is honestly the best feature hands down. I setup my partner and my mom in it. There was some resistance at first to learning a "new thing". But now they love that they only have to remember one secure password and all their other passwords are automatically generated for them. No more pet names as passwords!

fnordsensei4• 8 years ago

Is it possible to pay for a subscription and use a local vault?

I've no problem with the business model, but I'd rather keep the data to myself.

Edit: Answered my own question

1Password 7 from the Mac App Store will only support our hosted service, as that’s what you’re purchasing with a 1Password membership. If you install from our website, you’ll have to option to use a standalone vault synced via iCloud if you purchase a standalone license, or use our hosted service if you purchase a 1Password membership.

cjcampbell2• 8 years ago

Yes it is. The new release even brings local vault to Windows.

bwoodruff23• 8 years ago

Is it possible to pay for a subscription and use a local vault?

Yes, with 1Password 7 this is possible. It isn’t the recommended situation, and we don’t advertise it, but it is possible.

Ben Woodruff

AgileBits

DavideNL4• 8 years ago

You are making the same mistake with these arguments as many people make; nobody is complaining about paying for software.

People are complaining about subscriptions, because for example you easily loose track of what exactly it is your paying for.

Paying for an upgrade clearly shows you that you're paying some amount for some list of new features. You can then choose whether or not it's worth paying for. (just to name 1 disadvantage.)

For customers there are 0 benefits to a subscription model. For companies of course there are many.

jonknee2• 8 years ago

For customers there are 0 benefits to a subscription model. For companies of course there are many.

OP described in detail the benefit for customers--constantly updated software. Critical for something as security conscience as a password manager.

slackoverflower2• 8 years ago

Of course it's all upside for the company and down for the customer. Which company wouldn't love predictable revenue from customers every month. It's an amazing business model for software businesses, especially when the customer completely forgets about it and just let's their card be charged every month.

chrischen8• 8 years ago

It sounds like you feel like you underpaid. Then the solution is for them to charge more or charge for more of their products, not a subscription. A subscription basically forces you into paying for upgrades.

The only thing a subscription model is good for is it wrestes power from the consumer.

With the traditional model if they decide to stop updating the app, you wouldn’t buy the next version, and that would be your leverage. With a subscription model, they can decide to stop deivering updates, or deliver lower quality updates, and you’d be forced to pay perpetually just to keep the existing software operational.

gkoberger• 8 years ago

Here's a counterpoint:

If someone pays $40 for, say, 1Password 5, they have no incentive to upgrade. It works well enough, and there's no reason to pay again. So, 1Password is stuck supporting a legacy product (and servers / APIs for it), the user is frustrated by an old version of the software, and the company gets no money so they're at risk of folding (which would hurt both the customer and 1Password).

I agree that subscriptions can get annoying. However, if it ultimately is about the same price, it ends up working out much better for both sides. And hey, they can always stop their subscription and go somewhere else if things get bad. They don't lose their buying power completely.

roustem31• 8 years ago

You can look at it from a different perspective.

The customer could pay $5 and then cancel the subscription if they do not like the service.

With the license purchase they have to make a large commitment upfront.

richie5um• 8 years ago

This story is similar to mine. I really don't want to have lots of subscriptions, but I use 1Password sooo much, it is a clear winner for my money.

dingaling• 8 years ago

Well this one tool is 'only' $60 per year[0]. But what if your compiler moved to subscription, and your text editor and your e-mail client and ...

It's the thousand-cuts problem. And once you start on that path you can't go back, or else the tool stops working.

[0] which is a substantial chunk of a day's after-tax pay for many people in the UK, for example. 1/400th of their salary for a password database.

saagarjha4• 8 years ago

And once you start on that path you can't go back, or else the tool stops working.

How would you feel about a subscription service that guaranteed updates? Essentially, upgrade pricing, but charged every month.

vsl• 8 years ago

My compiler (MSVC) is subscription. My go-to editor for other stuff (PyCharm and other JetBrains editors) is a subscription. My email client isn't, but my email hosting (FastMail), which has a web client, is.

It doesn't even register -- they are tools I need for my work and I'm happy to pay yearly for them. It's worth nothing that with the exception of email (which, being on my own domain, I can always move elsewhere), I still keep usable licenses if I stop subscribing, I am not locked-in.

spronkey8• 8 years ago

You're absolutely right. I use over 400 tools. I'd be completely broke if I had to subscribe to them all.

beepbeepbeep1• 8 years ago

I am a long time 1Password user, purchased Mac licenses, IOS and Android over the years.

I was annoyed when it changed to being subscription based, the price wasn't an issue I think for the value it gives the price is fair, 1Password is the only thing now keeping me on a Mac.

The issue i had with it is you don't own the software and when my credit card expired and i forgot to update it losing access to passwords even if temporarily until updating the card details left a bad taste and showed the downside of being subscription only.

It's been on my list to move away ever since. 12 months on I've still not done it, there's lot's of alternatives but 1Password have the UX and functionality just right however i know i should move as i now don't own my passwords.

microtonal4• 8 years ago

I was annoyed when it changed to being subscription based, the price wasn't an issue I think for the value it gives the price is fair, 1Password is the only thing now keeping me on a Mac.

1Password X works on Firefox and Chrome on Linux.

crtasm2• 8 years ago

there's not even a grace period to export your passwords? If not, wow that's a major downside!

Comment elsewhere in this thread points out they have a Linux CLI app now as well.

hanklazard• 8 years ago

1Password is the only thing now keeping me on a Mac

I was in the same position. Switched to Keepass and have had no issues using it on Linux and iOS (the latter as KyPass)

burnte3• 8 years ago

I had purchased a bundle for Win/OSX/Android a while ago, several years, bu somewhere around 2ish years ago, I jumped into the subscription model to support it going forward. Worth every penny to me.

ratbeard• 8 years ago

I've been happy with 1password as well, other than two times my vault would not unlock until I restarted my computer.

Making it seem like you lost access to all your passwords seems just below security issues as far as high priority bugs, in my opinion..

https://discussions.agilebits.com/discussion/82915/why-cant-...

will_dev_4_food2• 8 years ago

I have two free password managers. Both iOS. One open source, and one just free. https://github.com/UCFirefly/Pythonista Or https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/dyfynderx/id1345759526?mt=8

jarym• 8 years ago

The reason I won’t go for a subscription is because I don’t want to find myself locked out of my password manager if I stop paying the subscription.

With IntelliJ (JetBrains) I get perpetual fallback and that makes me super comfortable with a subscription model.

Will AgileBits offer perpetual fallback? I doubt it. Their product works well but their marketing team are a let down.

ixtli• 8 years ago

Thank you for this comment. JetBrains subscription also drops in price over time to reward you for continued patronage. It's the only subscription model i've ever been comfortable with.

roustem31• 8 years ago

You do not lose access to your data when you stop paying for the subscription. It switches to read-only mode.

sigzero3• 8 years ago

You aren't locked out. It becomes read online and you can export it at that point.

mderazon3• 8 years ago

I never liked 1pass. I don't like the fact that you have to install a desktop app to use the browser extension. Also the UI is a bit annoying and sometimes it feels like it just gets in my way. The UX for multiple vaults is not so obvious at times and you don't realize you are only searching one vault instead of everything. Copying and sharing between vaults is also annoying.

I really don't see what 1pass does better than LastPass. LP has a bad security reputation but other than that it's much more enjoyable to use

kbar13• 8 years ago

security software

I really don't see what 1pass does better than LastPass
LP has a bad security reputation

mderazon3• 8 years ago

Is there any reason to believe LP is currently less secure than 1pass? If anything, I assume LP has been more thoroughly audited by now

y_molodtsov6• 8 years ago

1password seems to have better apps and is supported by multiple apps on iOS.

roustem31• 8 years ago

Good news! With 1Password X you can use it without installing the desktop app:

https://blog.agilebits.com/2017/11/13/1password-x-a-look-at-...

mderazon3• 8 years ago

Just installed now, much better, thanks

drivingmenuts2• 8 years ago

I've used 1Password on both Mac and Windows with Dropbox. The UI handles much more seamlessly on a Mac than on Windows, but I'm not sure where the blame lies on the Windows side.

I also tried using multiple vaults for reasons I can't remember, but that was just annoying, so eventually I just simplified.

vira28• 8 years ago

I couldn't have asked this question at a much better time. Would appreciate your feedback. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17111650

stirner2• 8 years ago

The Mac App Store makes it impossible to charge for software customers have already paid for? Tragic.

scarface745• 8 years ago

Not impossible, hackish.

You can emulate upgrade pricing via bundles.

If you sold V1 for $5.00 and then you want to sell V2 to new customers for $5.00 but existing customers. You can bundle the two versions for $8.00 and in the description for V1 you tell them that version 2 is available and don't buy it. You tell customers that have bought V1 already to get the bundle for $3.

nodamage3• 8 years ago

I thought bundles were only available on iOS, not Mac?

stirner2• 8 years ago

That's an interesting workaround. The question I meant to raise was whether a workaround is justified, or whether software developers should just maintain the apps they sell.

bwoodruff23• 8 years ago

Free upgrades forever isn’t a sustainable business model for us.

Ben Woodruff

AgileBits

lemoncucumber• 8 years ago

So for the Mac client, the options are to either subscribe or buy a standalone license directly from AgileBits.

But what is the upgrade path for futures versions of the iOS client if you choose not to subscribe?

bwoodruff23• 8 years ago

1Password for iOS was just upgraded to v7 and was not a paid upgrade (anyone who had previously purchased received the upgrade free of charge). As for what the future will bring, having just recently launched v7, it is a bit early to say.

Ben Woodruff

AgileBits

f311a• 8 years ago

Can someone clarify? Can I use transfer my appstore non-subscription license?

bwoodruff23• 8 years ago

I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking, but 1Password 7 is a separate purchase, unless you’re using a subscription (then it is included in your subscription). There is no transfer of licenses from v6 to v7. Does that help?

Ben Woodruff

AgileBits

vbezhenar2• 8 years ago

1Password for Mac and iOS worked flawlessly. But I recently migrated to Windows and installed 1Password 6 for Windows. It's just bad software. It's not responsive (I'm pressing "Save" and it works for a second or two, while I'm expecting it to respond instantly), it has some obvious UI bugs, but worse of all, it crashes very often, I don't remember a single program that crashes so much. It just feels very unpolished. I'm waiting for 7-th version to try it.

I thought about BitWarden but I don't really like its technologies. It uses .NET for server which is not very native for Linux. It uses JavaScript for client which I don't like at all. I wish it used something like Go or Java for server and .NET for client.

So far my primary candidate to switch is KeePass. I don't like it a lot, but at least it works and it's reliable.

xxkylexx3• 8 years ago

.NET Core is just as native as Java on Linux...

vbezhenar2• 8 years ago

I happen to be Java developer, so for me personally Java is fine. But yes, something like Go or Rust would be even better.

roustem31• 8 years ago

I am sorry to hear about the bad experience with 1Password 6! I was using 1Password 7 beta for the past few months and it worked well, we hope to release it in a few days.

If you have a problem, please do not hesitate to send us an email or live a message in our discussion forum: https://discussions.agilebits.com/

We do our best to reply to every message in 24 hours

ggm• 8 years ago

There is a non-subscription, licence-purchase model. They basically obfuscate it, (ok: kinder is "don't market it strongly") But there IS a licence model.

So mainly, the issue is how "hard" they make it to find. That, and the 'dont be evil, but hey, we changed our minds a bit' aspect to what was said in the past and now emerges.

The APP store doesn't help, but I think its ass-backwards to use that to "sell" the subscription model. Honestly? I could come into this now and not care, but as a licence holder, the way its being done irks me.

Just make it easier to find the licence option on the web page and in your apps, and I'll be good.

AGKyle12• 8 years ago

Making it easier to find is a double edged sword and the reason why it's harder to find now.

If we make it easy to find it will cause confusion for users about which to get. When we did this in the past we had a lot of users who thought they had to have both and as such would purchase both. This led to a lot of refunds on our part and explanation for which they should get.

Turns out most users are perfectly happy and will benefit greatly from the subscription side. This site and a couple of other places being the exception to this as many of you seem to prefer licenses which means this aggravates you all, but for the average person the benefit greatly from the subscription side and it's the one they often choose when we explain the benefits of each.

So making it easier to find puts that problem back on the table and quite frankly, it's something I'd really personally rather not deal with like before. It's easy to say differently until you have hundreds of users at any given time looking for help with what to buy or you accidentally find out they purchased both while helping them with some other unrelated thing.

The Mac App Store makes sense for subscriptions though. They will always have access to the latest version so long as the subscription is active, so we don't have to deal with upgrade pricing there.

For license users though it's not as clear cut. We can either issue a new app each time but we can't advertise the new version in the old version (rules) and this will end up with a lot of users not knowing there's a new version out. Subscription users will also have to upgrade manually each time and that's not convenient for them at all given they're entitled to that new version as part of their subscription.

We're trying to make it easy, though it's going to be difficult this time because we do have to get license users to switch entirely to our direct download version.

Once this is done though, subscription users can use either or, whichever they want.

License users will always use our direct download version.

When an upgrade comes out our subscription users will always be upgraded to the latest version without issues. Our license users will be prompted to upgrade or be informed of the upgrade in some way.

This is how it should work, unfortunately it was not possible to do this for the Mac App Store so we had to make changes there. Perhaps things change with the Mac App Store in the future and we can bring back both, but for now, this new method we're using provides the best user experience for both sides, once the switch is made.

I'll be the first to admit I hate removing choice from the equation here, and I hate that we have to get users to do work in the first place. But sometimes there are things outside of your ability to control and this is one of them for us.

Hope that gives some additional insight that wasn't present in the blog post though.

Kyle

AgileBits

Angostura• 8 years ago

Assuming in the Apple ecosystem only, is there any reason to go for this rather that the in-built Keychain?

stock_toaster• 8 years ago

New version of the MacOS desktop app appears to require at least Sierra. Hope the current version still works with "1Password Families" for a while (as I'm stuck on El Cap due to older hardware).

mark_l_watson• 8 years ago

1Password is a good product - I used it for a trial period a few years ago. I ended up going with SpiderOak's Encryptr: open source and free.

In any case, I try to get family and friends to use a password tool like 1Password, Encryptr, etc. It drives me crazy when people re-use the same low-entropy password for everything.

KiDD• 8 years ago

Never gonna pay to upgrade again...

twodayslate• 8 years ago

So if you are on a Family plan now and pay monthly you have to also pay monthly for the app?

roustem31• 8 years ago

No. If you are on a Family plan then all apps and updates are included in the subscription price.

sigzero3• 8 years ago

You can still buy a standalone license from the website directly. That's probably what I will do or I will find something else.

dvcrn• 8 years ago

I love 1Password and immediately bought a standalone 1P7 license when they started with the beta.

I agree with some others that they bury the hell out of the standalone one and want people to go for the subscription, but as long as I still have my standalone one, I am a happy customer. 7 looks and feels great, and for a software that I used for years and years since I first bought my license, this upgrade felt justified.

I in no way felt I had to upgrade though and could have just sticked with 6.

My only worry is that with 8, it might become subscription only for good... (Please don't!!)

jsgo• 8 years ago

At this point, I'm not upset about this as I previously subscribed, but I'm at the point now where I'm thinking of bolting because it has become a pain. At this point, I just need to find something that is secure, portable, can be backed up, and cross platform.

The syncing experience since at least 6 has been spotty between my Windows client, my iPhone, and my iPad. I can't tell you how many times I've had to reset a password because the device I was on didn't have the current gibberish password. Maybe I'm holding it wrong, but using the create login -> password generation bit does not sync at all. There's also the issue that every time I shutdown my Windows PC, I am greeted with an alert that AgileBits.1Password (there's another dot-separated part in the name as well, not sure what or specifically where) there was some issue in it that I have to close to shutdown.

With all that being said, I don't think Agile Bits is a bad company or that the subscription model is evil or anything of that nature. I think they're pretty decent people that are trying to keep the company profitable and alive. Paying for updates for password managers probably isn't the sexiest business model on either side of the equation. I would prefer that once I pay for it, it could function at that level (with maybe bug fixes) leveraging DropBox, iCloud, OneDrive, whatever, but I also understand they felt the need to cut it off and keep it relatively simple. It just isn't for me anymore.

bwoodruff23• 8 years ago

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I understand your perspective, and I’m sorry to hear that ultimately 1Password did not work out for you.

One of the primary reasons we built 1Password memberships was because of difficulties faced by customers in syncing with 3rd party services, and difficulties faced by our customer service team in troubleshooting those services (often black boxes).

Ben Woodruff

AgileBits

indemnity• 8 years ago

I thought I'd check out the beta, but what I didn't like about it is that it didn't even let me know the standalone approach was an option, Before I'd known what happened it had imported my previous passwords from the standalone version I had before and uploaded them to my 1Password.com account.

Pretty unhappy about this, I make it sync to iCloud because it's basically the only cloud provider I somewhat trust.

I do not want a bloody 1Password.com account.

How do I now know they've really deleted my data slurped into 1Password.com?

Khaine4• 8 years ago

I'm not sure how the subscription model makes sense for a password manager. In general, I'm not a fan of the subscription model. I hate the trend towards subscription. I can imagine a day, when I pay $5 a month for a password manager, $5 a month for office, $5 for slack, $5 for a to do manager, $5 fr a mail product, $10 for an internet browser, and after all that having no money for anything else.

bwoodruff23• 8 years ago

Speaking strictly in terms of money... How much would you pay for a license? $65? So what does that work out to if we release an upgrade every 2 - 2.5 years? About $30 / yr, right? That is about what a subscription costs as well, but the subscription includes access to the apps on all platforms, as well as other features not available with a license. For most people, especially 1Password Families customers, the subscription option is going to be less expensive. This is a reflection of the amount of support required on average by license customers vs subscription customers.

Ben Woodruff

AgileBits

Khaine4• 8 years ago

I understand the logic behind the value of a subscription. Personally, I am more comfortable 'owning' my software than having a subscription to it.

isarat• 8 years ago

I was skeptical about going for subscription. I started when I travelled abroad where I followed Basecamp’s travel tips (handbook). Things have changed when I started using 1Password 7 and 1Password X. The apps is very polished and pretty handy. I use Linux a lot these days and 1PX and CLI is very helpful. Never regretted the cloud update upgrade.

serbrech• 8 years ago

I've been staying on v4.x to keep the sync to dropbox. I don't want to used their hosted service. I don't want my master password to transit over the internet and its hash to be stored in a db, no matter how secure they are. Centralizing this makes it a target of attack. There is no way a hacker will try to get my credential unless he targets me personally, and there is little to no reason for this to happen. It does exactly what I need it to do. I don't need all the fancy other additional features. :(

bwoodruff23• 8 years ago

Your Master Password is never transmitted or stored hashed in a database. Please check out our security whitepaper. http://1pw.ca/whitepaper

Ben Woodruff

AgileBits

lancewiggs• 8 years ago

Sending any information to Agilebits besides payment requires a whole lot more trust - and stuffing over customers was not the way to earn it. So no - I don’t trust them anymore.

I’ve reccomended 1password to hundreds of people, so it’s sad to see the decline. I would and did accept a simple annual new paid version - but the upgrades seemed to to remove/hide the basics like Dropbox sync or one location for passwords.

So now there is a gap in the market for a paid easy to install and sync password manager that makes it trivial to store data locally. Surely they are a lot easier to create now?

tomerbd• 8 years ago

Why not just use keepassx for Mac with parallel versions on for iOS Android with cloud sync can someone explain to me? I have everything I need auto complete control strength etc + it's open source.

Jemm• 8 years ago

At the rate that things in my life are moving to a subscription model, I am going to need a subscription manager more than a password manager.

jpz• 8 years ago

I bought their software. The software stopped working properly and nagged me to buy a subscription - despite having purchased the full product previously.

I lost my interest in being their customer. They did offer my a 1yr subscription for free, but by then I had wasted hours trying to get a new install to work and had lost my goodwill with the product.

intrasight• 8 years ago

Could someone chime in with a TL;DR on what this thing does?

MindTooth• 8 years ago

I think for myself that I won't upgrade. The whole process is a mess when coming from the regular App Store app, and the need to convert, with new apps, sites, etc. The reason I've always loved 1Password was of the convince of signing into App Store, download the app, and just open 1Password, enter the masterpw, and be done with it.

I will miss the iCloud-sync and the convenience on Apple-platforms, but I seriously believe that a change is forced.

Getting 1Password 7 ready for the Mac App Store

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