Eric Schmidt: "If you have something [to hide], maybe you shouldn't be doing it"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/07/schmidt_on_privacy/

by nkohari • 17 years ago

279 168 17 years ago

theregister.co.uk

patrickgzill• 17 years ago

So much for "don't be evil".

baxter• 17 years ago

There's a difference between "don't be evil" and "be good".

zackattack2• 17 years ago

I disagree. I think every action is polarized. Some actions are just further towards one end of the spectrum than others.

cbetz• 17 years ago

In my opinion, he should apologize immediately or else resign. Unfortunately the cat already seems to be out of the bag to some extent. I really hope Sergey and Larry do not have the same disdain for privacy that Mr. Schmidt has exhibited.

I was previously on the fence about trusting Google with all my data and personal information. This one idiotic sentence from the CEO makes the choice to stop using Google services a lot easier for me.

jsm3862• 17 years ago

It seems like he's actually telling you, the user, not to be evil. Sad.

dhume• 17 years ago

Hiding some behavior is not an acknowledgment that the behavior is wrong, just that there may be someone out there who thinks it is.

robobenjie• 17 years ago

It seems to me that what he thought he was referring to was cases like a subpoena for child pornography. The cases when google is obliged to divulge personal information are reserved for cases in which someone is seriously believed to be evil. When people read his quote I think tend to think of embarrassing things they themselves have searched for, but no one is going to subpoena (or even care) about your search for "nurse + handcuffs".

When I use google I know that there is some probability of the results getting hacked or leaked or subpoenaed or looked at by a google employee trying to improve search. However the expected value of that embarrassment (probability of someone I actually care about seeing it X how embarrassed I would be) is very low, and, for me, doesn't even come close to outweighing the benefit provided by the suite of google products. On the otherhand (and I think this is Erik's point) if you are using google to do something that would legitimately land you in jail the expected value of bad-stuff is much higher. (Actually both the probability of getting subpoenaed and the level of bad go up).

I feel that there is this idea that everything you do everywhere on the internet can and should be totally private and that any chance that it isn't is seen as removing a fundamental right. In my opinion the internet is more like a trail out in the middle of the wilderness: usually no one sees what you do and its probably ok to have sex with your girlfriend without anyone knowing, but if you start burying bodies out there the FBI can and will use that against you.

amackera• 17 years ago

The problem with that motto is that "evil" is entirely subjective.

gojomo• 17 years ago

It's just been expanded. It's now, "don't be evil, dear users, or we'll get ya!"

dustingetz2• 17 years ago

privacy and the argument against nothing to hide on slashdot: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/10/2054219

Hexstream• 17 years ago

Don't miss the comment starting with "Privacy is only a way to protect you IF THE DATA ISN'T COLLECTED AT ALL." in that thread.

ulf• 17 years ago

Thanks for the confession... the scary part is the magnitude of which google has access to everyones personal data. Thanks to analytics they even can track everything outside of their direct control

daten• 17 years ago

I agree. This is an important thing to realize. It's also not just analytics. Every site that links to advertisements controlled by google or one of the many advertising companies they've acquired can also be used to correlate data about you. I started worrying more when they bought doubleclick.net. I wonder if that same google opt-out cookie works for those sites? What if you're concerned about your privacy enough to clear your cache and cookies every time you close your browser? Google is in a stronger position to track more of what you do on the net than many people may realize.

sheriff• 17 years ago

cool, so my friends that work at Google don't need to keep the details of their projects secret anymore?

NonEUCitizen• 17 years ago

or they shouldn't be working on that project...

dirkstoop• 17 years ago

Funny, Schmidt is using the same reasoning people commonly use to defend the patriot act (and, for that matter, other government-instilled impediments on privacy and freedom of speech).

netcan• 17 years ago

What is the reasoning?

pierrefar2• 17 years ago

I'd like Eric Schmidt to publicly release his search history, both his work-related and private searches.

silentobserver• 17 years ago

Eric Schmidt has never had anything to hide, like cheating on his wife... Oh wait...

All of these guys are hypocrites; when will you guys realize this? Oh, and that gas-guzzling 767 with the private shower is being used to "create good in places like Africa" (or whatever they had said), right?

tedunangst2• 17 years ago

Did Eric Schmidt really do a Google search for "Did I cheat on my wife?"?

dabent• 17 years ago

I don't think he'd like that at all.

The article links to a story about Google blocking CNET reporters for a year after they used Google search to find details about Schmidt: http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/05/technology/google_cnet/

Really, all this "privacy" nonsense is for the little people, not important folk like Eric Schmidt, anyway.

byrneseyeview• 17 years ago

about Google blocking CNET reporters for a year

To be clear, this is a story about Google's press representatives not speaking to CNET reporters -- when I first read it, I thought you meant that Google blocked CNET's IP address. Still a very petty response.

kiujhygfvgbn4• 17 years ago

At least he is telling you that all your searches are forwarded to the authorities under the patriot act. The cell phone companies haven't got round to warning you that your phone's location is given to the police 8million times.

roc2• 17 years ago

Sprint did.

tc2• 17 years ago

What if his statement was not intended as a moral imperative, but as practical advice?

Perhaps he is saying, "The fact of the matter is that we're required to retain and release lots of information. If you don't want that information being passed around, you probably shouldn't give it to us. Sorry, we do the best we can under the circumstances."

"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be [googling] it in the first place."

pierrefar2• 17 years ago

Who's requiring them to retain anything? For 180 days?

And retaining for policing/security reasons doesn't mean you should use the data for other privacy-invading targeting.

tc2• 17 years ago

It could also, of course, be simple uncritical rationalization.

If staying in business and out of the cross-hairs of the DoJ's anti-trust division means you have to play ball with some data retention "requests," then you're probably going to rationalize a million tenuously logical reasons why that's the right thing to do.

zephjc• 17 years ago

What if his statement was not intended as a moral imperative, but as practical advice?

Not that you could tell from the article's headline. Either The Register is being sensationalist, or just didn't see it in those terms.

jcapote• 17 years ago

Exactly.

Finally, a reasoned response. I came in here just to say this; Can't believe what an uproar this is causing...

tibbon• 17 years ago

You mean searching for "illegal hot nude child porn photos for download in the usa, my address is 100 Foo street", is a poor idea?

nishantmodak• 17 years ago

Even if you want to search for that - do so without logging into your google account.

fauigerzigerk2• 17 years ago

Telling me how to do what I want to do is practical. Telling me what to do or not to do is patronizing.

dhimes3• 17 years ago

But it's worse than that, tc. Why do they keep the information for so long? Because they are required? No. They monetize it. Sooooo, in the future there will come great pressure to increase the value of Google stock. Not today, perhaps, but some day.

When that day comes, insurance companies are going to say, "We'll make it worth your while if you tell us who is googling for 'breast cancer;' 'diabetes;' 'melanoma.'" At some point in the future the major shareholders (think Carl Icahn or some such character) will make it awfully hard to say, "no." Just a more direct way to monetize the data.

As I said elsewhere here, google should, if they don't want to be evil, allow us to opt for a poorer search experience and not keep our data.

seldo• 17 years ago

It's not like this is a problem specific to Google. Credit cards, for instance, are very convenient but also easily traced if you are up to no good. Nobody thinks the credit card companies should protect your anonymity -- if you're buying something you shouldn't, don't use a credit card.

pqs• 17 years ago

If that is what he is saying, he should just say this. Wouldn't it be simpler?

marltod• 17 years ago

He might not have any, The same way people who work at sausage factories don't eat sausage. His searches could be anonymous, encrypted and routed through foreign gateways.

txxxxd2• 17 years ago

When I use my credit card online I accept the fact that it may be exposed. That doesn't mean I should have to publicly release my credit card number though does it?

I think a lot of people are having a knee-jerk reaction thinking that this guy is giving moral advice. What I see here is just a statement of fact: if you don't want something to ever possibly be known about you, don't put in online.

Readers of this site should know better than the general public that there is always a risk of data getting into the wrong hands. Even if you trust the host. Even if you encrypted the data. etc.

tome• 17 years ago

Straight back at Eric Schmidt: "If you have to look at people's personal data to do something, maybe you shouldn't be doing it"

tedunangst2• 17 years ago

How would a search engine that doesn't look at your search string work?

rabidgnat• 17 years ago

Cuil answered that question very definitively :D

diego• 17 years ago

Of course it needs your query string, but it could run your search and then forget about it. Arguably Google was better when it didn't take your history into account when calculating the results.

ShabbyDoo3• 17 years ago

Perhaps, "if you have to retain people's data..."?

jrockway2• 17 years ago

Retaining my data makes it easier for Google to give me good results in the future.

The problem is not that Google stores your data. The problem is that disclosing that data has social and legal consequences. Why shoot the messenger?

hydeph• 17 years ago

reminds me of this riff on privacy by Bruce Schneier from a few years back addressing the same notion that Schmidt is quoted here to believe

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/05/the_value_of_p...

JulianMorrison3• 17 years ago

Privacy protects from abusive power, and privacy protects from irrational judgment: true but incomplete. Privacy allows us to tolerate these problems - rather than being forced to confront them. That may not be a good thing.

roc2• 17 years ago

Society is full of things we compartmentalize, minimize and tolerate.

Mostly, because we don't know how to confront them. I certainly don't know how to patch human nature so that power doesn't corrupt. So, in the meantime, I'll take privacy, thanks.

winter_blue• 17 years ago

"If you have something to hide, maybe you shouldn't be doing it" is valid not only in the context of net privacy but much more so as a general rule.

lylejohnson• 17 years ago

You're kidding, right? Tell me you're kidding.

jfoutz2• 17 years ago

Do you close the door when you go to the bathroom?

randallsquared3• 17 years ago

I do close the door, but I don't search for pinhole cameras in public bathrooms, in spite of the fact that some exist. I think that highlights the difference between expecting privacy and trying to ensure it.

by3• 17 years ago

Democracy depends on hidden votes and freedom of speech depends on anonymity. Your statement therefore suggests you are opposed to both democracy and freedom of speech.

lmkg• 17 years ago

While I don't like the tone of this post, the point about secret ballots is insightful and deserves consideration.

gvb• 17 years ago

Things that should not be doing are usually done in secret, so from that point of view, Eric Schmidt's saying is a truism. Unfortunately, it gets applied in the converse form, which is wrong: people, and especially governments, infer guilt from a desire for privacy (a politer term than "hiding").

This is explained very well in nfnaaron's post http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=983997

JulianMorrison3• 17 years ago

My corollary: if you have something to hide, and doing it is a good or neutral thing, then you have identified a bug in society. You probably ought to fix that.

gloob• 17 years ago

I would rather hide, thank you. In a fight between me and the world, my bet is on the world.

JulianMorrison3• 17 years ago

Who else does the good/neutral thing? Make common cause with them.

frossie• 17 years ago

Cf: wikileaks

elmindreda• 17 years ago

There are lots of such bugs, however, and fixing them takes decades of hard work. In the meantime, most people affected by said bugs, unwilling or unable to fight, need a place to hide.

lallysingh• 17 years ago

If you have something to hide, do so via technical solutions (e.g. tor), not by hoping some other entity will do it for you on their own accord. They've got their own problems to deal with.

ramanujan• 17 years ago

If you wanted to end Google, all you would have to do is offer a reward for a whistleblower to videotape a privacy violation at Mountain View.

Imagine putting that on Youtube.

(EDIT: yes, I know they own Youtube. Of course they'll take it down. But it would be reposted on Vimeo and the like, and the publicity for the takedown would cause the Streisand effect).

astine2• 17 years ago

Except that Google owns Youtube.

Imagine that getting taken down from Youtube in record time.

va_coder2• 17 years ago

We need a privacy contract similar to Richard Stallman's GNU General Public License. Something standard that both parties can quickly understand and agree to.

Idea: A new competing search engine could release a General Privacy Agreement along with their search service.

ibsulon• 17 years ago

If only search engines weren't expensive to launch and run... it's about making the money back.

by3• 17 years ago

Maybe this would be a good starting point:

https://www.ixquick.com/eng/protect-privacy.html

They claim to be "The only search engine that does not record your IP address."

nfnaaron4• 17 years ago

Thank you for that. Very interesting meta-search engine, clean results. It appears that Google is not among the engines they use.

I like that they don't record your IP, and that they offer https access. Hard to say whether they really do what they say, but they do have the European Privacy Seal, for whatever that's worth.

I'm using it now to see how I like it, so far so good.

va_coder2• 17 years ago

Thank you for the link!

willwagner• 17 years ago

Not a privacy contract but Ask.com has a feature called AskEraser that will remove all your personal information.

http://sp.ask.com/en/docs/about/askeraser.shtml

raheemm• 17 years ago

Absolute power corrupts absolutely

zackattack2• 17 years ago

This is why philosopher kings aren't allowed possessions.

adamc• 17 years ago

Cool, so Google will be publishing the search histories of all Google employees by name?

Hypocrite.

DrJokepu• 17 years ago

I'd like to hear Erich Schmidt's half of the story.

This is typical Internet drama. We have seen it a million times. I give the guy the benefit of doubt since this wouldn't be the first occasion some journalist taken a sentence out of context.

mrduncan2• 17 years ago

It sounds like the interview which was done by CNBC during their hour-long special about a week ago on Google. I'll check when I get home since I have it on my DVR, but they usually re-air their specials every few weeks so keep an eye out for it.

ErrantX• 17 years ago

I think Im probably with you on this one. There has been a lot of anti-google rumbling the last few months and I guess this is mostly a continuation of that.

Pretty silly thing to have said though.

andreyf• 17 years ago

There is no other half. It's a quote taken completely out of context and blown out of proportion with absolutely moronic commentary. I can't believe this is the kind of thing that makes it to the front page of HN, much less to the #1 spot :(

But the bigger news may be that Schmidt has actually admitted there are cases where the search giant is forced to release your personal data.

Oh, you mean Google follows US laws? They don't participate in acts of civil disobedience in a suicidal effort to protect our privacy!? Eeeevil!

benmathes• 17 years ago

Try hackerhackernews.com. It's the same site, but uses some Bayesian modeling to filter out the TechCrunch-like internet drama.

astine2• 17 years ago

While you're right that vilifying Schmidt based on this statement is a little ridiculous, I'd say that one would still be wise to take it as a warning. Chances are that Google not only has your search history, but your email history, many of your documents information about your travel plans, and more. All it would take is for one unscrupulous executive to abuse his position and ruin your life. Chances are, no matter how innocent you are, you have something to hide. Google doesn't have to morally evil to justify our being wary of it.

mark_l_watson• 17 years ago

I bet that he wishes he could roll-back that comment!

I think that most non-tech people would be very surprised if they realized how much personal data our corporate overlords have collected.

EastSmith• 17 years ago

I guess "Don't be evil" now becomes "Don't be paranoid"

From Wikipedia Article about Google Chrome: Chrome sends details about its usage to Google through both optional and non-optional user tracking mechanisms

lucifer• 17 years ago

The register suggests it is possible to avoid Google products, but the web is literally infested with Google ads and that is a tracking mechanism.

mapleoin• 17 years ago

you can block cookies based on domain name, or from third parties

mcantelon• 17 years ago

There is also, unless I'm mistaken, the possibility of Javascript-instantiated and Flash ads which have the possibility of relaying your IP to the mothership.

Having a filter on your DNS client that excludes Google-related IPs might be more thorough.

quickpost• 17 years ago

Adblock, FTW.

bugs• 17 years ago

Better disable javascript, if you are avoiding google, as well

randallsquared3• 17 years ago

This is only the tip of the iceberg, and the future absence of privacy will not really be about Google... Google is just a harbringer.

Universal sousveillance is the future, but since you'll be less and less able to tell whether you're in the future in this sense, acting as though you are might be prudent. :)

jam• 17 years ago

In twenty years, does privacy still exist? What about in a hundred?

I'm definitely not a fan of exposing data that people wish to keep private. It seems conceivable, though, that privacy is an idea that won't survive time and technology.

polynomial• 17 years ago

Exactly. If you didn't see the death of privacy as early as the 80s you either weren't paying attention, or weren't born yet.

What's going on here is a redefining of personal data as "private but without privacy." While the distinction itself is somewhat subtle, the ways this redefining is being carried out are anything but.

In Eric's case, he has never exactly been known for his subtlety of thought, has he…?

vaksel• 17 years ago

the users are their own worst nightmares when it comes to privacy. Just look at facebook for evidence.

jodrellblank• 17 years ago

"This seems backward. Almost certainly, there is something wrong with you if you don't think things you don't dare say out loud."

- http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

bumblebird• 17 years ago

I don't quite understand why this recent trend has started, but things are showing up on HN that were on Reddit a few days ago.

3 days ago in this case.

http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/ab8jt/googles_ce...

It's like a very slow echo.

spiralhead• 17 years ago

Are you expecting Google to defy the US government? He is merely stating a fact:

"...we are all subject in the United States to the Patriot Act..."

How many of you are actually concerned you'll receive a subpoena from the feds to reveal you porn viewing habits?

DougWebb• 17 years ago

The concern is that the feds will subpoena Google for everything they've got about everybody in a witchhunt sweep, and the results of that will be used to target individuals for further investigation based on 'suspicion of wrong-doing' rather than actual crimes being committed. Taken out of context, just about anything can be made to look suspicious.

sqs• 17 years ago

Wow. I think the more important point (as the article says) is made in the next paragraph, where Eric Schmidt reminds us all that data Google collects is always subject to seizure by governments. So, even if you do trust Google, by using Google you're creating a data trail easily accessible by governments. If you used your own server based (say) in the US, on the other hand, then realistically only the US could seize your data, and even then it'd be much harder than if it were stored on Google.

ori_b• 17 years ago

The thing people don't realize with google - You are not the customer. You are the product. The customers are the people who pay google to do their advertising.

nfnaaron4• 17 years ago

"... we are all subject in the United States to the Patriot Act and it is possible that all that information could be made available to the authorities."

The right to privacy from the government is a logical consequence of the fact that the government is the servant of the people, put in place to protect and promote the people's interests. The Declaration of Independence describes our reason for instituting a government at all:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ..."

We need no justification for privacy from the government and its proxies. The most upstanding citizen still has the right to keep his affairs private. Even people with nothing to hide have the right to hide it.

We explicitly give the government the power of search, but only when we (through a judge) agree that it's necessary. Without that agreement, they're not allowed:

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

We explicitly restrict all other powers of government through the 10th Amendment:

Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

We do that because we recognize the tendency of unchecked governments to gather more power to themselves. When a government becomes more powerful than its people, the people are slaves who have lost "the Blessings of Liberty" as listed in the Constitution's Preamble.

Government is a dangerous tool. It's the people who should be watching the government, not the other way around.

pohl2• 17 years ago

I would like to be able to invoke the 4th amendment like this, but I'm having trouble thinking through how one would establish - if Google handed data to the feds under the Patriot Act - that the feds would be searching or seizing anything that was on my person, nor in my house, nor my papers, nor my effects.

Rather, it seems more likely that the feds would be knocking on Google's house and seizing a portion of their "papers" that recorded the times that I've come over to visit. I don't think I own their log entries for my searches. Moreover, does a corporation get protection under that amendment, and even if they do, there's already the "warrant" mechanism.

nfnaaron4• 17 years ago

Anything on Google would be your papers and effects, I would think. The spirit of the law is to protect your privacy, and it's not the place of government to search your affairs just because new technology makes that possible and practical.

Also, the government is not demanding data from Google because they're interested in Google; they're interested in you.

TallGuyShort• 17 years ago

In other words, if I use Google Checkout, I should be ashamed of myself for wanting my credit card information kept private?

txxxxd2• 17 years ago

The quote doesn't have anything to do with shame. Not sure how you read into that...

The message is simply that any information on the Internet is subject to the risk of exposure. We use credit cards knowing that the risk is very low - but we all know its possible your credit card number will be intercepted, misused, etc. This is a fact, not a question of morality.

dustingetz2• 17 years ago

cc companies accept the risk of fraud, you (theoretically) have little legal risk.

Vitaly• 17 years ago

hey, guys, chill out. He's not saying that you shouldn't do anything you don't want the public to know or anything like that. Google is actually protecting your privacy from the public. Your search history is not available to anyone except for the law-enforcement with a subpoena. He is only saying that under some circumstances Google has to release some information according to the current law. And if you don't want this happening, you should't have this information on Google in the first place.

For example if you plan to murder someone you better not google for "how to hide a corpse" :)

ekiru• 17 years ago

On a related note, if you plan to murder someone, you should not post an HN comment suggesting what not to google for when planning a murder.

joubert• 17 years ago

'If you don't want anyone to know, don't do it'

Bullshit argument for invading privacy. I prefer to hide my genitals from public view.

Since he has nothing to hide, let's set up a streaming webcam outside his house, zoomed in on his bedroom. Or better yet, let's implant a nano-camera up his rectum.

btilly• 17 years ago

I don't particularly care about the government investigating me.

My concern is about the people in power abusing their power to get information about their main rivals. Think "Watergate". Except without the physical breaking and entering.

There are legitimate reasons why people who have done nothing wrong would want what they have done not revealed to those in power. My concern about our descent into becoming a police state is that the checks and balances that should protect those people are disappearing.

raganwald• 17 years ago

There are legitimate reasons why people who have done nothing wrong would want what they have done not revealed to those in power.

Mr. Braithwaite? We're investigating a co-worker of yours for possible misuse of computers for XXXXXXX. Can you please tell us: have you ever observed him doing XXXXXX? Do you think you could have a look at his computer the next time he takes a bathroom break and tell us if you see any signs of XXXXXX on it?

"That sounds pretty bad but to be perfectly honest, I'm very comfortable with your ability to gather surveillance information using normal means, including obtaining a search warrant for his computer. I'd like to consult a lawyer before answering any questions about anybody, thank you very much. Please excuse me..."

Mr. Braithwaite? Let me see here... Oh yes, you're they guy who likes to look at pictures of XXXXXX. And I see here you purchased the following toys... Do you keep those in the house where your... let me see... two kids visit? Does your ex-wife's lawyer know what kind of movies you like to watch? Would you like her to know? Sit down please, we have much to discuss.

You don't want to get all legal with us and demand a lawyer, do you? You don't want us to have to bother with a lot of troublesome search warrants, do you?

jrwoodruff2• 17 years ago

The sad thing here really is how obviously limited his perspective is. Maybe this is true in the U.S. (but I'm pretty sure privacy is still something highly valued here) but what about foreign citizens? What about people who have things to hide from the chinese government? What about governments that have things to hide from their people? Oh, wait, Google already answered that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Google#China

wastedbrains• 17 years ago

Yeah I disagree with Eric on this point. There are many things I think are fine and acceptable to do, but they don't need to be a part of my public life.

I don't want employers, grandparents, and the government to have access to my private and personal life.

No reason everyone should know movies, books, music, games, sexuality, political beliefs, and everything else about me.

tybris• 17 years ago

Like participating in the democratic process?

(see voter privacy)

vilda• 17 years ago

If you have a cancer, maybe you shouldn't have it.

It is very easy to get caught with this type of argumentation. It is wrong.

Keywords may actually reveal a lot more that one would assume, and prone for des-interpretation as well.

ewjordan• 17 years ago

The video clip is available at http://gawker.com/5419271/google-ceo-secrets-are-for-filthy-...

sbt• 17 years ago

Google - Be Evil.

sabat• 17 years ago

If you have something to hide, don't do it on the Internet. Sure. But Schmidt's careless disregard for privacy? Look, 1984 was a warning, not a textbook.

singlow• 17 years ago

If you need to justify your non-privacy policies with accusations, maybe you shouldn't be collecting so much identifiable data.

There are plenty of legitimate, even honorable actions which are threatened by poor privacy policies.

drawkbox• 17 years ago

Thomas Jefferson would not approve of that opinion. I actually think less of Google for this stance.

Legion• 17 years ago

So when are people going to start poisoning their search histories by collectively performing mass searches for "bad" content? I've been expecting that to be the eventual reaction to Google disclosing search history.

hristov• 17 years ago

It is funny how everyone blames Schmidt and not the government or the patriot act or the politicians that enacted the patriot act. Schmidt was just being honest.

codexon3• 17 years ago

It sounds like Schmidt supports things like the Patriot Act.

If he was against it he would have said something like "if you like your privacy don't put it on the internet". Instead, he said "you shouldn't be doing it in the first place".

This single phrase has a strong connotation that you are doing something bad. Schmidt doesn't strike me as being dumb enough to say this without knowing exactly how the public would interpret it.

codexon3• 17 years ago

Previously submitted here

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=982838

Though unfortunately my submission didn't get as many upvotes for whatever reason.

zandorg• 17 years ago

Go to Scroogle and click HTTPS...

https://ssl.scroogle.org

Problem solved!

sdh• 17 years ago

the real problem is not google or schmidt, but things like the patriot act and the ridiculous habit of our government of using "matter of national security" as a catchall for abuse.

the more people who realize how little privacy they have left the better. it's the only way the trend will be reversed.

tsally• 17 years ago

I hope you're all pleased you jumped on the bandwagon. Here are his actual words from the video:

Judgement matters... If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place... If you really need that kind of privacy, the reality is that search engines - including Google - do retain this information for some time and it's important, for example, that we are all subject in the United States to the Patriot Act and it is possible that all that information could be made available to the authorities.

Schmidt's statement is clearly pragmatic. One might even argue there's an implied criticism of laws like the Patriot Act. Could he have phrased it better? Yes. He shouldn't have said the sentence in question. But next time, actually read/watch the primary source so you can get the full picture. His closing remarks completely change the tone of the conversation. Are you really going to let The Register do your thinking for you?

dasht• 17 years ago

I think that Mr. Schmidt is trying to do two things: (1) Preparing for Google to eventually be "outed" about just how much data it actually hands over to the government on the basis of the Patriot Act; (2) Distracting the general public from the broader range of privacy concerns that Google raises (specifically: private surveillance as contrasted with government surveillance).

He mentions the Patriot Act and I would paraphrase him as throwing up his arms and saying "Hey, we're subject to those laws just like you! We have no choice!" Alas, Google does have the choice and unique opportunity to challenge those laws but it appears that they simply decline. That is why I think he's preparing for Google to be outed vis a vis the extent of its cooperation with government.

Next, asked about privacy concerns, he immediately reframes the question as if it were a question about government surveillance - neatly ducking any issues about private surveillance. Bartalomo fails to follow up.

The issue about private surveillance is significant in mundane (but serious) ways and in more speculative, cultural crisis kind of ways.

A mundane concern is the question of whether or not Google "leaks like a sieve". For example, if someone at Google dislikes me, how hard is it for them to scratch around for dirt in my (nominally) private information? If someone at Google is a friend or (black market) business partner of a recruiter at some other firm to which I apply for employment, is an unauthorized background check possible? Do such things happen? It's hard to imagine that they are technically hard to prevent....

A speculative but serious cultural crisis concern regards Google's deliberate and accidental implementation of what we could dub behavioral tracking and targeted manipulation. For example, let's suppose that one day I get a crazy suspicion from something I read on a blog. I think that there could possibly be a vast conspiracy and that my best chances for survival might be to liquify all of my assets and invest everything I have in personal caches of peppermint candy. I don't fully believe it but I start researching via Google. Google's AIs quickly figure out that I linger on ad-carrying content from backers of this conspiracy theory and, pretty soon, that stuff is at the top of all my searches and predicts 40% of the ads I see. From my perspective: that stuff is "all over the Internet" and I begin to wonder if my neighbors aren't in on the conspiracy since none of them talk about it. Pretty soon, Google has built me a personal, private channel of conspiracy news and peppermint candy ads. I sell my house, leave my family, cash out my retirement plan, by a van to live down by the river, and fill up a rent-a-store spot with boxes of candy.

Now, that same personal bug - my vulnerability to a conspiracy theory - may have been there all along. The change here is that back in, say, 1975 - the biggest mistake I might make is to subscribe to a few newsletters and magazines, perhaps hedge by buying a dozen boxes of candy rather than a gross. Meanwhile, the TV, the radio, all these other things are feeding me counter-evidence to the conspiracy and I'd eventually have a much better chance of coming to my senses.

But Google is unprecedented in its comprehensiveness as a source of monitoring and manipulating my attention. Like the Vegas slot machine that convinces me (wrongly) that I have a system to beat the slots because it pays out 49% of the time, so long as I pay it with my recognizable frequent-gambler credit card -- Google's AI can potentially really mess a person up.

That is a privacy concern. That's a privacy concern directly raised by Google's stated intentions of dabbling in behavioral tracking. And it's a concern that Schmidt deflects from attention by turning the question into a question about government surveillance.

Now, things can get even worse. Suppose that Google's AI doesn't cause large numbers of people to drop out of society and load up on peppermint candy but that, shucks, little discrete tweaks here and there can use the same behavioral science effects to, say, influence the next election for the local dog catcher. And one of the candidates for dog catcher has a slush fund, and a friend at Google.... Or, forget the friend at Google... suppose the dog catcher candidate has a friend who, this year at least, has found some underhanded tricks that currently work really well for SEO....

The ethics of running search and ad placement are unprecedented and difficult and hinge very much on how we update our understanding of "privacy". They hinge very much on the question of privacy vs. behavioral tracking. Schmidt appears uninterested in talking about these issues and very much interested in deflecting attention away from them.

At most only slightly exaggerating: we're all analogous to lab rats, now, in Google's massive-scale human-subject psychological research project with unprecedented amounts of automated surveillance and stimulus production. With money and power hinging on the outcome.

protomyth• 17 years ago

So, at what point does Google having all your info (e-mail, DNS, search, Google Voice, social network activity, etc.) become worse than AT&T / NSA tapping all your calls?

jsz0• 17 years ago

I think it's a very fair and reasonable advice. You don't have to use Google. This is the service Google offers. Your privacy is your payment. It's a great opportunity for someone to start a competing search service that focuses on privacy.

jluxenberg• 17 years ago

Cuil's shtick is that they don't store any search history http://www.cuil.com/

natmaster• 17 years ago

Does this mean he's going to open source all of Google's infrastructure? And release all the trade secrets?

That would be awesome!

teeja• 17 years ago

"in our case we’re building the platform that will allow the content people to do more targeted content."

Telling us what 'personalized' is about. Not doing better searching, doing better selling. Find the people with a little extra money, 24/7, and offer them something they might go for, 24/7, whether they need it or don't. Helping them stay one paycheck away from broke.

theblackbox• 17 years ago

I've not really kept up with this story, nor can I rouse myself to feel the outrage shared by a lot of the community on this one... but if I were to throw in my two cents, I'd have to point to Google Flu Trends [1] and the fact that their modeling of influenza outbreak and spread are some of the most accurate and up-to-date on earth, often besting the World Health Organisation. This is sometimes used as justification for extending the length of time that Google retains data.

If this anti-google sentiment is to be believed and they are marching the corporate road to evil, I shudder to think of the information that could be inferred from collective search pattern trends.

I just noticed that the example had not been given yet and I think it's an important one in this debate. It is a seemingly benign, if not entirely altruistic, case study. What is the consensus, smoke and mirrors, or is there a real social value to be gleaned [2] from the harvest of the vast data swarm?

[1: http://www.google.org/flutrends/] [2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleaning]

nazgulnarsil• 17 years ago

this thread is now too massive to get any decent visibility for this, oh well.

there is a much deeper, more philosophical reason for instituting a right to privacy than just the fear of corrupt governments.

humans are adapted to signal certain values for the sake of group cohesion. we have a "public persona" and a private life. this isn't something sinister, it's a way of coping with the demands placed on us by our interaction with others. we know in practice that depriving people of the ability to hide things from each other is extremely detrimental to their psyches. most importantly, it is detrimental regardless of the triviality of the things kept secret.

when deprived of the ability to keep secrets people are forced to be "always on". they must maintain the "proper" signals at all times. this is extremely draining (yes, even for extroverts, eventually). the things we like to signal to others aren't necessarily the things that make us most happy.

Eric Schmidt: "If you have something [to hide], maybe you shouldn't be doing it"

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