Testosterone is the drug of the future

http://fusion.net/story/42619/why-testosterone-is-the-drug-of-the-future/

by mparramon • 11 years ago

341 296 11 years ago

toadi• 11 years ago

Read about it 15 years ago in a Belgian magazine. A Belgian doctor was claiming the same.

To be quite honest I use it already for 15 years and indeed it changes you. It helps me to be in "sana in corpore sano". Let's hope the negative health impacts on long term are not to bet so my body stays sano :)

zumtar• 11 years ago

Do you have children? I hear that TRT causes infertility so you need to abandon any hope of that while you are on it, is this the case?

collyw7• 11 years ago

Sign me up!

paulojreis2• 11 years ago

Would you be kind enough to share your experience?

I ask you this as a 29 yrs old who's mortified of aging and feels guilty as hell for having a "all-day-sitting" job.

stinos5• 11 years ago

mortified of aging

Isn't that rather a psychological issue? After all, aging is still quite unavoidable. Would postponing the unavoidable end really make you less mortified?

feels guilty

Sort of the same remark as above. Moreover, it is (afaik) not proven taking any kind of drug will counter or reverse the damage done by sitting all day - so taking drugs anyway would just act as a placebo: it doesn't really help with the actual problem, but you wouldn't feel guilty because you would think it does help. Which is maybe worse than your current situation as you would be less tempted to find a more suitable solution. Which is hard to figure out without knowing your particular situation, but would typically include things such as less continuous sitting, more breaks, more moving around.

dash2• 11 years ago

When I was 29, I felt just the same. Then I hit 30... and realised it doesn't matter.

Relax. Worrying about being too old at 29 is absurd. When you are 39, I promise you, you will think back and laugh yourself silly.

The all day sitting job might be a real problem, though.

ansible• 11 years ago

Changing to sitting on an exercise ball or going to a standing desk is a less severe thing to try to increase your overall activity level. Cheap too.

epaladin2• 11 years ago

Same age... this thread is really making me feel old. Generally I still feel like I'm just getting out here and just getting started still in terms of career, life, etc. I really hope it's not all downhill from 30!

Related to the main subject, I don't think my levels have ever been low, but I've always been surprised at how quickly I lose muscle mass when I'm not working out. That might be more related to protein intake and other genetic factors though, since I've always been pretty lean.

loucal3• 11 years ago

I don't think more testosterone will help if you are sitting all day. You'd have to make up for all that sitting time with gym time otherwise even low dose testosterone will do nothing but help you gain hair and fat (well and some muscle even if you are sitting but it will probably be negligible). When I first got on testosterone I realized why most males always envied my ability to eat whatever I want without putting on body fat. That changed immediately, within a week I had to watch what I ate bc I noticed some fat building on my lower abdomen.

yummyfajitas2• 11 years ago

Can anyone link to a gwern-style review of it?

Unfortunately a google search for the same just yields a bunch of T-Nation style spam aimed at wannabe bodybuilders.

aydinhan• 11 years ago

Gwern wrote a section about Testosterone in Nootropics article: http://www.gwern.net/Nootropics#testosterone

yummyfajitas2• 11 years ago

I like the experiment it proposes, although I wish someone else tried it first.

basicallydan• 11 years ago

I totally get the argument for using testosterone for sex changes.

But as a man who takes his health and fitness into his own hands, I can't help but wonder if something like testosterone would become slightly addictive. Is it something one can use to get out of a slump and then stop taking, or is it more that when one gets to a certain age, it becomes necessary for staying at desired fitness levels?

gadders9• 11 years ago

I've never tried it, but listening to strength training/powerlifting podcasts they do say that after coming off it can be psychologically addictive as your lifts and physical capabilities drop.

mrlase3• 11 years ago

If you're already at normal testosterone levels and decide to take a supraphysiological dose (500 mg/wk of enanthate), you will have to go through post cycle therapy (PCT) when you're finished. PCT restarts your natural testestorone production. You'd take something like Nolvadex for four weeks with a tapering dosage.

freshfey12• 11 years ago

As someone who went from 430 ng/dl to 1024 ng/dl naturally in about two years time (from age 23 to 25) the only thing I can say is don't jump to too many conclusions here.

- Your testosterone should be naturally high if you're below 30 (and male)

- If not, something is wrong and you need to fix it (start with blood work, check your diet, move)

- If you testosterone is in the normal ranges (blood work recommends between 600 and 1200, which is ridiculous), you'll feel good 80-90% of the time

- the 10-20% are probably psychological worries that you might have, start meditating

- I didn't get huge muscles or less body fat with more testosterone (huge myth that I thought would change for me)

- TRT is used heavily in pro-sports (look for UFC fighters and bodybuilders, they have the most experience, since a lot of them are doing it)

- TRT is a problem if you keep going for too long, because your body just doesn't produce testosterone as it used to, because it expects it from the outside, so below 35 or rather below 40 year olds: don't sign up for this too quickly.

- Cold showers/baths do work, but probably not for increasing your testosterone, still, do it from time to time :)

- Intermittent Fasting helps immensely with boosting your testosterone naturally.

I can provide more info or details/specifics if wanted/needed.

return010• 11 years ago

You 're quite young. i wonder if it is possible to change so fast when you're older.

freshfey12• 11 years ago

take a look at the book "4 Hour Body" by Tim Ferriss, there in the chapter Improving Sex, sub-chapter: "Sex Machine I: Adventures in Tripling Testosterone"

I think in there the author, Tim Ferriss aged 34(?), mentions how he went from 2xx to 6xx in a very short amount of time, mainly by changing his nutrition.

Simp3• 11 years ago

"start meditating"

Research has not shown that meditation beats a placebo

Studies about meditation are usually of poor quality.

Source: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2013/03/08/r...

stinos5• 11 years ago

Research has not shown that meditation beats a placebo

Isn't that sort of irrelevant here? I think the OP's point is that it helps, not that it helps better than something else (wahtever that may be, even a placebo)?

collyw7• 11 years ago

Placebo is an effective harm free way of improving many conditions. Why dismiss it so readily?

dood3• 11 years ago

That meditation research has historically been inconclusive and of poor quality does not mean it doesn't do anything.

Also, meditation research has come a long way since the studies cited in your source. Something I dug up quickly: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/americanbuddhist/2014/01/the-ef...

callum85• 11 years ago

How could there be a placebo for meditation? A placebo has to replicate the experience of going through the 'real' treatment being trialled. How could you create the experience of meditation without the subject actually meditating? The claim being tested is simply that the experience of meditation is beneficial, so I don't know what form a placebo could take.

It would be OK to do a trial where one group is instructed to meditate and the other is not given any instructions, and you check back with each group in a couple of weeks and ask them how they feel. If there's a difference in the meditation group, that proves there is value in meditating. Placebo doesn't come into it, because no one is claiming there is any benefit to meditation that doesn't come from simply experiencing it.

For comparison, I once heard of a way of testing acupuncture against a placebo – someone invented needles that look and feel the same but don't actually penetrate the skin. So they could compare the reported benefits of 'fake acupuncture' with real acupuncture, and see if there's any health benefit to the physical intervention, or if it's all just theatre. And if it is all just theatre, that's OK – it doesn't negate the health benefits of acupuncture, it just helps us understand that it's all about the experience of having someone slowly and dramatically stick pins in you, which is interesting. It's not the same as saying that acupuncture doesn't work.

vidarh8• 11 years ago

Your source does not support your claim that research has not shown that meditation beats a placebo.

Apart from pointing out that "meditation" is a wide ranging concept that includes a vast number of different, often contradictory, practices, and that a lot of the research is of poor quality (given the number of "research" papers coming out of TM affiliated sources alone - see blow -, that should not be a surprise), it relates a claim in a report from 2007 that amongst others claim "Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence". Without looking at what was covered in the papers that report looked at, this is not enough to support your claim.

The closest the article comes to dealing with the issue of placebo explicitly, is in referring to another article focusing on TM. TM is a cult-like money-grabbing business promoting one very specific form of meditation, and hardly representative of all forms of meditation practices. They're also one of the groups doing a lot of work to assist in churning out pseudo-science research papers to support their business, and as such did a lot to damage the overall quality of meditation research.

freshfey12• 11 years ago

Yeah again, if you only want to go after research, you might run in circles. Meditation has helped me and a lot of people I know, a lot. Whether it will work for you in your circumstances is a different question. But then: The study won't be much help, because you might have different variables in your life.

Simp3• 11 years ago

More information to satisfy the complaints of my critics regarding the date, definitions, forms of meditation, etc:

A systematic study on the efficacy of various forms of meditation programs (inc mantra, transcendental, and mindfulness meditation), commissioned by the US Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, was published in 2014.[67] After a review of 17,801 citations, the study based its conclusions on 41 randomized controlled trials with an active control, involving 2,993 participants. The assessment found "no effect or insufficient evidence of any effect of meditation programs on positive mood, attention, substance use, eating habits, sleep, and weight."

Study: http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=18097...

henryaj• 11 years ago

What are the details of your intermittent fasting?

freshfey12• 11 years ago

in terms of timing you mean? I fasted for 14 hours and simply delayed/skipped breakfast, still eating 3 meals at around 2400 calories.

toolz2• 11 years ago

- I didn't get huge muscles or less body fat with more testosterone (huge myth that I thought would change for me)

The many studies done on this subject show that testosterone makes a huge impact on muscle growth. Take this 10 week study for instance, http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101. The placebo group working out didn't experience nearly as much muscle gain as those taking testosterone did when they were not working out.

gadders9• 11 years ago

I guess it also depends on what exercises you're doing. Body Pump and Nautilus machines wouldn't cut it.

//edit// Or rather would help the OP a lot.

paganel• 11 years ago

The many studies done on this subject show that testosterone makes a huge impact on muscle growth

Genuine question: Why this emphasis on increasing "muscle growth"? What benefits does it bring us (men)?

raverbashing2• 11 years ago

Depends on a lot of factors.

1 - Exercise

2 - The dosage. Having a slight amount over the normal dosage won't cause a big gain in muscle mass. (600mg is a significant dosage, see Table 3 on the article for the sorological difference)

freshfey12• 11 years ago

I can only answer with my personal experience here: During the intermittent fasting time (age 25), where I went from from 6xx to 1024ng/dl, I didn't gain significant amount of muscle, although I was working out with heavy (free) weights, 3x per week.

johnward15• 11 years ago

The original poster had High T levels to start with. Maybe he didn't notice much of a change. I noticed a significant change going from <120ng/dl to 500ng/dl (still less than OP). I always drop weight when I am on T and get much leaner without changing anything else. Well it does make it easier to work out and diet but even without any changes it makes a big difference. Each time I go off and onto something else like clomiphene I gain 20-30lbs that is not lean at all.

pervycreeper• 11 years ago

I can provide more info or details/specifics if wanted/needed.

Please do. Some references to further reading would also be appreciated.

freshfey12• 11 years ago

Sure, what are you looking for specifically?

johnward15• 11 years ago

" I didn't get huge muscles or less body fat with more testosterone (huge myth that I thought would change for me)".

For me I almost always drop 20lbs on T and am much leaner than I am off or on clomid. On clomid I generally gain weight.

"- TRT is a problem if you keep going for too long, because your body just doesn't produce testosterone as it used to, because it expects it from the outside, so below 35 or rather below 40 year olds: don't sign up for this too quickly."

You can counteract this by taking ancillaries while on T. There are drugs that can restore the LH and FSH that get suppressed by testosterone but this is a valid concern. 100mg of T per week made me basically infertile but clomid brought me back to normal after a few weeks.

Diet and nutrition is very important if you want to keep optimum T levels. This forum post, not written by anyone in the medical field, has a pretty list of possible causes outside of supplementing with T. http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_trainin...

droopyEyelids• 11 years ago

How did you test your fertility

driverdan4• 11 years ago

For me I almost always drop 20lbs on T and am much leaner than I am off or on clomid. On clomid I generally gain weight.

Were you working out? Taking test isn't a panacea, you still need to be active to get significant body composition changes.

You can counteract this by taking ancillaries while on T. There are drugs that can restore the LH and FSH that get suppressed by testosterone but this is a valid concern. 100mg of T per week made me basically infertile but clomid brought me back to normal after a few weeks.

The body's endocrine system is closed, it has a tight feedback loop. It sounds like you're referring to cycling on / off which is different than taking it continuously long term.

LukeB_UK• 11 years ago

TRT has now been banned in the UFC.

sliverstorm2• 11 years ago

Naturally? What did you do?

JohnBooty• 11 years ago

   TRT is a problem if you keep going for too long, because your body just doesn't produce testosterone as it used to, because it expects it from the outside, so below 35 or rather below 40 year olds: don't sign up for this too quickly.

This is the reason why my doctor wouldn't prescribe it for me (38 year-old male, hoping to have a kid with my wife in the next year or two). When on testosterone supplements, the body can start to rely on the outside testosterone and gradually stops producing its own. He said it can result in a situation where you're essentially locked into taking testosterone forever.

Strangely, I didn't see that risk mentioned in the linked article. Did I simply miss it?

tormeh2• 11 years ago

It would be nice to have broader shoulders, but an increased sex drive sounds inconvenient. Life is just more dignified without so much neediness. I don't get why anyone (without a more sex-hungry partner, ie most men) would want that. Is it just a gender stereotype / bro thing?

stinos5• 11 years ago

Pretty sure quite a lot of people out there would rather take more frequent, good sex over something rather superficial as broader shoulders. Sex can be extremely pleasant especially if all parties feel like it and are longing for each other. Getting older the opportunities for such sex can become less frequent though, and an increased sex drive could help to counter that. Not sure taking drugs is the best way to achieve that though..

collyw7• 11 years ago

I would have assumed wanting broad shoulder would be so you look more attractive to the opposite sex (or the same sex, if that's what you prefer).

The reason being you are more likely to get more sex...

tormeh2• 11 years ago

Well, yes, but the timing is important. I wouldn't want a higher sex drive unless sex comes easily, which it doesn't.

drcomputer• 11 years ago

I am guessing because some hormonal changes in mid/elder life will kick in some kind of emotional down that is mostly fillable by children, rather than peer validation and stuff.

That's what I am terrified of. Celibacy allows me to have room to do everything I want to do in life. I'm just terrified I will wake up one day (again) with a hormonal landslide affecting every thought, direction, and attitude I have.

Cats like me though, so there's always that.

return010• 11 years ago

I wonder if it is possible to compare today's T levels with men of 100 years ago or even more. It could be that the industrialization and urbanization has caused a massive change in T levels because of natural reasons (less sun, less exercise, less anxiety, processed foods, tight clothing, what have you)

MegaLeon• 11 years ago

That's a good point. I remember reading that our generation's T levels are significantly lower than our granpa's.

beaumartinez• 11 years ago

Alcohol, plastics (which leech from containers into the liquid they contain), pesticides (on fruits, vegetables)—there are a host of environmental factors that reduce our testosterone levels.

And as for anxiety, I think our modern urban lifestyle far increases our anxiety levels compared to our ancestors.

The human body was not meant for the world we live in!

epaladin2• 11 years ago

I've wondered about the effect that environmental factors might have on Japan's current predicament- something in the water? did processing of soy products change at some point such that levels of the estrogen analogs ended up being higher? I guess I haven't been quite curious enough to see if there have been any rigorous studies that have compared T levels there over the last few decades.

rotten• 11 years ago

I suspect women never really talked about menopause until recent decades, yet they have been experiencing it throughout the existence of our species. (Although there is that traditional "Maiden, Mother, Crone" thing. Hmm.)

Anyway, only recently have men started talking about andropause. The main reason it is still a controversial subject is because men's reproduction systems don't completely shut down, and because the process can sometimes be much slower. However we still go through many of the same hormonal changes and it is rather unnerving.

I think we have only the barest minimum of understanding of the chemical processes that control and regulate our bodies. Jumping on the production a single chemical as the root of all issues is a little ridiculous sounding to me. Especially in light of all of the recent discoveries about our microbiome. (gut bacteria)

It is an insanely complex interplay. Over the next few decades I'm sure our understanding will increase exponentially.

It would indeed be very interesting to compare the spectrum and balance of hormones and microbiome structures from 100 years ago to those typical in the contemporary human. It could be different because of lifestyle and environment, or it could be self regulating, and nearly the same (the perceived differences being cultural).

gwern• 11 years ago

There are a few blood archives going back multiple decades which might allow this. For example, I read a while ago one study which used a US military blood archive with samples from the 1950s to check that some blood biomarker had genuinely increased since then.

alecco2• 11 years ago

This is quack science. I wouldn't exchange temporary muscular gains for getting bald and other nasty long term side effects.

WhitneyLand2• 11 years ago

What is quack about it? Lots of people are noting anecdotally that is has huge benefits. Are there strong studies disproving this? As to the negative effects, what is the largest/longest term/most reputable citation you have for us?

corin_• 11 years ago

What's quack about it is testosterone users calling themselves "doctors" to sell testosterone to other people. I haven't looked into research on either side so couldn't tell you whether I think it's a good or stupid thing to do, other than that if I did consider it I certainly wouldn't be considering the anecdotes of these people useful data.

bonn1• 11 years ago

Would you mind to elaborate about the side effects? The article sounds too good to be true.

mrlase3• 11 years ago

The side effects of exogenous testosterone are far over blown, especially at a TRT level dosage (about 200 mg/week depending on the ester used). Many of the side effects can be managed by using medication such as Arimidex.

anjc• 11 years ago

Sure all muscle gains are temporary. And TRT is typically used by people who would be at an age where baldness is common anyway.

cylinder2• 11 years ago

It sounds like you are the one spouting quack science.

whizzrd2• 11 years ago

Read the leaflets for this product: side effects may differ depending on the region of application ;)

AU: http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/testogel%20patient%20in...

US: http://www.besins-healthcare.com/pdf/androgel_PI.pdf

WhitneyLand2• 11 years ago

This is utterly useless. Many safe drugs have long, scary side effect descriptions. Conversely, many drugs that have proved harmful over the long term have done so in ways that weren't described on a side effect disclosure.

whizzrd2• 11 years ago

You may find it useless until you experience serious side effects (>1% - <10%): headache, dizzyness, paraesthesia, amnesia, hyperaesthesia, mood disorders, hypertension and gynaecomastia

Wondering if someone using this product can confirm these symptoms.

slantyyz5• 11 years ago

I'm on TRT for life (see my other posts on this article for why), and I have used Androgel packets daily for 7 years.

The side effect that I have experience with is hair growth on some of the body areas (that were hairless before I started using it) that I apply it.

Keep in mind that I may be encountering fewer side effects because my body is not producing any significant testosterone itself. If you're using it as a supplement, you could experience more side effects.

adrianoconnor• 11 years ago

Presumably if you go this route you can't enter any organised sporting events or do any form of competitive racing? Just saying, because as you get older, if you start getting some fitness back you'll possibly want to start challenging yourself this way -- look how many vets enter triathlons and marathons, ride gran fondos etc. I'd see supplements like this as a last resort, for when a changed diet/exercise regime etc. haven't worked.

davak• 11 years ago

MD here. Just remember that women live longer than men. Although it'll never be proven that hormones are part of that provess, I think it's a good assumption.

Many males as they get older become more lovable and more pleasent to be around because of natural hormone declines.

There are a ton of health issues such as balding, coronary artery disease, prostate cancer, obstructive sleep apnea that are related to testosterone. Whether these clinics can find the correct cocktail to find a healthy balance isn't clear.

I'm neither pro nor con. I've seen people who have been positively and negatively impacted by steroid supplementation.

return010• 11 years ago

Indeed there is evidence for it. For some people though, i guess longevity is not the best indicator of the good life.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-19699266

mironathetin• 11 years ago

I am happy that an expert without a bias reports about this. What you noted down came back into my mind immediately. These were the reported risks for professional athletes (back in the days when I decided to study physics instead of taking more of this junk and go pro).

There are also natural ways to keep your own T level high, like healthy food, enough sleep, everything that increases your muscle mass (weightlifting), not too much stress, staying lean, and of course the most enjoyable thing you can do with your partner ;o). All this desn't cost a 1000$ a month, its free and its good for you too. No enhanced risk for cancer, no bad wakeup after 20 years of taking it.

golemotron2• 11 years ago

I don't think so. If testosterone is the culprit for increased risk of coronary artery disease, prostate cancer and sleep apnea, then doing things that naturally increase testosterone will increase risk also.

Don't succumb to the naturalistic fallacy. The body doesn't care where it gets its chemicals from.

dreamweapon• 11 years ago

There are also natural ways to keep your own T level high, like healthy food

Specifics? Evidence?

Lio• 11 years ago

"Women live longer than men" is interesting though.

Does that take into account the horrendous levels of male suicide? Statistically does this bump the average life expectancies down for men?

I'm definitely not disagreeing with you. It seems very plausible that human growth hormone could be linked to some cancers.

On a side note, is baldness actually a "health issue"? I mean I know mainstream media doesn't like to show balding men (40% over the age of 30. In TV and film not so much) but still, it's not actually life threatening.

omegaham• 11 years ago

This is a good point. Men do more dangerous jobs, are much more likely to be murdered, do riskier behavior, and commit suicide more often.

On the other hand, women bear children, which historically would have been a huge cause of early death. Not as much these days, though.

leephillips• 11 years ago

I like famous baldy John Glenn's take on this: "The good Lord only gave men so many hormones, and if others want to waste theirs on growing hair, that's up to them." (I've heard several versions of the quote, so take the wording with a grain of salt.)

kghose• 11 years ago

Many males as they get older become more lovable and more pleasent to be around because of natural hormone declines.

Is your medical practice anecdote based too?

q-base• 11 years ago

Then there is the quality vs. quantity aspect of living. Longer living should not be the goal in itself.

lukas0992• 11 years ago

No, but it should be a goal in itself. If you enjoy life, there's nothing wrong with wanting to live longer.

Loic• 11 years ago

Studies[0] do support that eunuchs live longer than average men. You have also a study of the eunuchs of China's Emperor were living way longer than the men having the same lifestyle in the Forbidden City. I sadly can't find the study at the moment.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch#Eunuchs_in_the_contempor...

drzaiusapelord• 11 years ago

I wonder if this could be attributed to STDs, jealous lovers, and other risks a sexual active person might be exposed to compared to a sexually inactive person.

wavegeek5• 11 years ago

The evidence for the longer life spans of eunuchs is actually pretty thin. Endocrinology textbooks regard it as unconvincing.

What is very clear though is the association in non-eunuchs of low T levels with a host of very harmful medical conditions including heart disease and osteoporosis.

Studies have consistently shown Low T is associated with these conditions and many more, but the evidence that T fixes them is unconvincing.

From my extensive review of these studies the problem is that the studies were too small and that those running the studies were too often, like too many people doing medical research, statistically illiterate.

ThomPete• 11 years ago

As far as I understand there is a lot of estrogen in Soya?

Could the higher estrogen level also be the reason asians seem to live longer? (i hear they don't normally get sick until they reach their 70ies)

Or have I been completely misinformed?

mrlase3• 11 years ago

No, the aromatization of soy protein is far over blown.

gadders9• 11 years ago

>Many males as they get older become more lovable and more pleasent to be around because of natural hormone declines.

I resent that. I don't have low testosterone but I'd still say I was a loving father and husband and a generally good person. Being "manly" doesn't mean being a dick, quite the opposite.

parennoob• 11 years ago

Being "manly" doesn't mean being a dick

I think it is mildly amusing that you are saying being manly doesn't equal the organ that is literally the representation of masculinity (albeit often disguised, as in the Mars symbol).

collyw7• 11 years ago

I just turned 40 and I get a lot more wound up by incompetent workmates or similar things than I did 20 years ago.

slantyyz5• 11 years ago

I think you're overthinking what he's saying.

He's simply talking about the side effect of reduced testosterone -- I think he's just trying to say men simply mellow out more when he says "more lovable".

I can speak to this with first hand experience. I had testicular cancer for a _second_ time in my 30s and while I was waiting several weeks for a chance to see an endocrinologist about replacing the testosterone my body could no longer produce, I noticed a big change in how I saw things.

Traffic, which in my city is a big stressor, no longer bothered me. People would cut me off, and I'd be like "oh well" and move on. Totally unbothered. A lot of "irritants" were no longer nearly as irritating. Now that I'm on testosterone replacement therapy, not so much the case any more. Not saying that I'm more irritable, it's just that I'm not nearly as mellow as I was in those weeks my testosterone levels dipped very low.

jessaustin• 11 years ago

I resent that.

Perhaps at a certain testosterone level, this sort of statement wouldn't bother you so much?

sliverstorm2• 11 years ago

I don't have low testosterone

That doesn't mean your testosterone hasn't declined since your roaring bachelor early 20's.

blfr• 11 years ago

There are a ton of health issues such as balding, ..., obstructive sleep apnea

I thought balding is primarily genetic (men respond differently to some metabolite of testosterone) and obstructive sleep apnea only a serious issue for overweight people. Could you, or someone else, elaborate, maybe link a longer explanation?

o_____________o• 11 years ago

Your predisposition is genetic, but like many things, it's not an on/off switch, and will land you in a gradient. Beyond that, there are lots of variables like how much of your T is albumin/SHBG bound, glucocorticoids, 5a-r, etc. Our endocrine and inflammatory responses are crazy complex.

That said, it's easily the leading causal agent, and most people will experience some form of hair loss in their life. Women experience loss at levels that might surprise you. Tellingly, the first defense for women is usually an antiandrogenic (anti-T) called Spironolactone.

billsimpson• 11 years ago

health issues such as balding

Thanks, doc. Though I agree most men would prefer to avoid it, I never really regarded my balding as a health issue before now (and especially not the one I'd lead with over cancer and heart disease).

lukas0992• 11 years ago

He probably led with balding because it is the most common symptom. An 80% chance of going bald is more important to a lot of men than a 0.1% chance of heart disease.

undrcvr-lagggal• 11 years ago

There are a ton of health issues such as balding, coronary artery disease, prostate cancer, obstructive sleep apnea that are related to testosterone.

So then, could it be true that getting your protein from soy based foods (e.g., tofu, tempeh, miso) presents an obstacle to being hit by these?

narrator• 11 years ago

Replacing testosterone is just covering up for the fact that the cells that originally created it in the first place are slowly losing function due to aging. You want to keep those cells healthy if you want to live forever and that's what all the telomere hubbub is about.

wavegeek5• 11 years ago

This is utter rubbish. The natural age-related fall in T levels is only a few tenths of a percent per year. Healthy men tend to retain good T levels well into old age.

J Clin Endocrin Metab.doi:10.1210/jc.2012-3842 Longitudinal changes in testosterone over five years in community-dwelling men (abstract at end)

However for many other reasons, T levels can dramatically fall. Some of these reasons in include medications, stress, various diseases.

A common example is men who are on cortico-steroid medication for inflammatory or auto-immune conditions. Cortisol reduces T levels, reduces its effectiveness, and operates in the opposite manner (ie catabolic versus anabolic).

Longitudinal changes in testosterone over five years in community-dwelling men Zumin Shi 1 *,MD, PhD, Andre B. Araujo 2 ,PhD, Sean Martin 1 , Peter O’Loughlin 3 ,MD, PhD, and Gary A. Wittert 1 ,MD, FRACP 1 Discipline of Medicine, University of Adelaide, S Australia; 2 Epidemiology, New England Research Institutes, Inc., 9 Galen St, Watertown, MA 02472, United States; 3 Institute of Medical and Veterinary Science Pathology, Adelaide, S Australia Context. There are few population-based studies reporting longitudinal changes in total tes- tosterone (T), luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH), and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels, and limited information on risk factors for their change. Objective. The objective of the study was to examined 5-year changes in serum T, LH, FSH, and SHBG levels among Australian men. Design. A randomly selected, community based cohort of 1,588 men age 35 or older at recruit- ment (mean age 54؎11y), with available data at two visits. Men on medications known to affect, or with established pathology of, the hypothalamo-pituitary gonadal axis were excluded, leav- ing 1,382 for analysis. Results. Mean baseline and follow-up T levels were 16.2؎1.4nmol/L and 15.6؎1.4nmol/L; a change of -0.13nmol/L/y. Annualized T changes were associated with being unmarried, obesity, and smoking at baseline, but not diabetes, hypertension, or cardiovascular disease. T declined in men with persistent depression, or who developed chronic disease, and increased in men who were married, as compared to unmarried, at both time points. In the multivariate analysis, smoking cessation, development of central (waist >100cm) or generalised (BMI > 30) obesity resulted in T decreases of 0.36, 0.25, and 0.20nmol/L/y respectively. Quitting smoking, developing obesity, and having persisting depression were inversely related to SHBG change. Conclusions. An age-related decline in T levels is not inevitable but largely explained by smoking behaviour and intercurrent changes in health status, particularly obesity and depression."

ryanmarsh2• 11 years ago

I just finished a run of pro hormones designed to increase T. See my twitter as proof. Within a week my shoulders got bigger and I dropped 6lbs. I had no other change in diet and swam (my workout) less because I'm developing swimmer's shoulder. The downside? I just couldn't take it any more. My mind raced about sex (complete with random boners) and raged about everything else. It was like being 18 again. I realize now why I did so many crazy stupid things when I was 18-24. I ended the supplements and can again focus on work without getting pissed off at everything. Although I must say random boners at 36 came as an oddly pleasant surprise, also my wife enjoyed the extra attention.

cgh2• 11 years ago

I had a look at your Twitter feed but I didn't see where you named the specific supplements you used. Can you list them here? Curious to see what they are. I've only ever found tongkat ali to produce a noticeable effect.

bootload• 11 years ago

"... health issues such as balding ..."

health issue? MD in what, from where?

lectrick4• 11 years ago

Obstructive sleep apnea increases cortisol levels which in turn decrease testosterone levels.

Source: I have obstructive sleep apnea and low testosterone, both of which are being treated finally, and my income rose by... triple? quadruple? ever since

zdc• 11 years ago

What did you do to take care of your sleep apnea? Just curious, as a sufferer of OSA as well.

gambler• 11 years ago

Just remember that women live longer than men.

I find it remarkable that people state and accept this in such matter-of-fact fashion, rather than seeing it as an issue. Pretty much all statistics that go the other way around are seen as a problem that needs fixing. (If you disagree, please provide a counter-example. I.e. something that shows higher disease or death rates among women that is discussed as a matter-of-fact without any controversy.)

When there is a difference in life expectancy, there is possibly an opportunity for improvement.

Padding• 11 years ago

I completely agree. We should drive more women into suicide.

golemotron2• 11 years ago

Many males as they get older become more lovable and more pleasent to be around because of natural hormone declines.

Misandry much?

jriley2• 11 years ago

I found DHEA in the natural aisle of local grocery store under $10. I take a low dose daily (in my early 30s). Worth researching.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehydroepiandrosterone

chrisbennet3• 11 years ago

Given the recent revelation by the New York attorney general's office [1], what confidence do you have that you are actually getting what is on the label?

(I didn't down vote you.)

[1] http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/03/new-york-attorney-g...

jriley2• 11 years ago

Fairly confident, although I do believe there is snake oil on the same aisle. I've used brands Natrol and Nature's Bounty.

I understand DHEA as a steroid hormone that is a precursor to testosterone. I consider the drug's banned status in athletic competition as a signal it might be effective.

From Wiki: "DHEA is legal to sell in the United States as a dietary supplement. It is currently grandfathered in as an "Old Dietary Ingredient" being on sale prior to 1994. DHEA is specifically exempted from the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990 and 2004 It is banned from use in athletic competition."

svantana• 11 years ago

Is it just me, or did this article completely assume that it's reader is male?

floatboth• 11 years ago

It definitely assumes the reader wants to be (more) masculine...

hellodevnull4• 11 years ago

I was just at the gym watching the 30-year-olds at the pull-up bar building muscles in three weeks. And I’m at the pull up bar and nothing’s happening

While many of you are thinking that he's making excuses (he might be) or that the other guys worked long and hard to build muscle, I can relate: I've been lifting weights three times a week for the last four years. I still look average, and yes I'm eating and exercising properly.

I believe it might be something to do with testosterone. I was always skinny, high body fat and frail. I worked super hard to even start exercising, eventually I was able to get into routine but still now I feel like I should look much better after all this time.

What's the deal with testosterone in UK? I'm 27, is it likely that I can get it? Are there home test kits I can get (reliable ones)? Do testosterone boosters actually work (I can't verify without testing)?

chillax• 11 years ago

Have you gained or lost any weight?

hellodevnull4• 11 years ago

I bulked and cut as many recommend. During the bulk phase I put on about 10kg, after which I lowered my calorie intake to try to reduce my body fat and look better (I was skinny-fat). I worked out with some friends, similar age, and they were able to build muscle and increase their lifts at a much higher rate than I could.

randlet2• 11 years ago

Are you sure you're eating enough? Have your lifts been going up?

Before searching out testosterone I would try a beginners lifting program (meaning linear programming, where your lifts go up every workout) and eating a lot (3000-4000kCal a day). Starting Strength (my recommendation), Stronglifts and Ice Cream Fitness (ICF) are 3 popular ones.

hellodevnull4• 11 years ago

I did Starting Strength with a gallon of milk a day (6000 Calories). I was able to improve my lifts (slowly) but I looked horrible (so much fat around abdomen I looked pregnant). Switched to hypertrophy with 2000-3000 Calories whilst cutting/maintaining. I researched this well and tried really hard so I'm not jumping to conclusions here.

ap22213• 11 years ago

It could just be genetics. Rs1815739 is related to what type of muscle that forms.

http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1815739

benihana• 11 years ago

I've been lifting weights three times a week for the last four years. I still look average, and yes I'm eating and exercising properly.

People always says this. They always eat well and recover properly, but they just can't make any gains. Everyone else can, but they can't and instead of looking at the simplest explanation, they do hurdles to convince themselves they have low test and that's why they're not perfect. Have you been going to a trainer? A nutritionist? Might want to check out other alternatives before taking synthetic hormones. And get off /fit/. This seems like the kind of genius idea that someone on /fit/ came up with.

hellodevnull4• 11 years ago

I just made a post saying I didn't jump to conclusions, it was only after years of training that I even considered the possibility that something was wrong with me. Never browsed /fit/ not sure what you're trying to say... I won't try to convince you -- I'm sure there are many that like to make excuses so you think I fall under that category too.

Anderkent• 11 years ago

it was easy for me so surely anyone who is struggling is doing it wrong

gwys• 11 years ago

The number one thing you need to do is logging. Without measurements it very hard to know what's going on. You might very well go to the doctor and check blood levels, intolerance and the like. But that is mostly a one time thing. You need to be constantly logging all your workouts and diet and then test yourself every 1-6 months (different for different tests). You'll at least want body measurements, bmi (be accurate, but not to often), aerobic performance, strength performance.

Get some screening, then go to someone who knows their thing, get homework, do homework for a couple of months, come back and you'll be in a very good position for improvement or at least arguing your case.

matwood• 11 years ago

Looking at your logs, what do the big exercise #s look like from day 1 to now? Row, DL, Squat, Bench, OH Press

You certainly may have some medical condition, but every person who has come to me with a similar story has not realized they are simply missing something. I was even you at one point until I finally figured out how to lift and how to eat.

driverdan4• 11 years ago

When was the last time you changed your workout routine? If you do the same thing for a long time it's easy to get stuck in a rut with minimal / no gains. Switch up the exercises, volume, and intensity if you haven't already.

markovbling• 11 years ago

Ask your GP to do a blood test - reasonably cheap and can get conclusive answer.

stevepotter• 11 years ago

I went through a major testosterone-related health scare when I was 31 (4 years ago). I was in the midst of launching a startup. Stressed out, financially strained, hardly sleeping, hardly exercising, drinking too much. I thought I was eating right but turns out I wasn't. I began feeling like an empty shell of my former self. And yes, it totally affected my sex drive. Went to doc and had blood work done. My test levels were about 200, which would be acceptable had I been 70 years old. I was terrified.

After ruling things out, the doc prescribed me Androgel, a gel-based test delivery system. You rub it on your shoulders and it absorbs in. But you have to be careful to not let it get on other people. I had a baby girl on the way and sat there thinking that I never want to worry about touching my wife or daughter. Plus this wasn't a temporary treatment. You are a slave to it, and pay about $10/day for it. Oh, and it turns out people, especially younger men, have a higher chance of stroke on that stuff. That's no life, so I decided to try and cure it naturally.

And I did. My testosterone is normal now (forget the exact number). And I feel great. It was simple. First, I started strength training. Weights, especially compound moves like squats, will build test levels. And helps with sleep. Check out stronglifts.com if you want a good starting point.

Second I fixed my diet. Check out the book The Perfect Health Diet. I learned I was not eating enough good fat. I started using more olive oil, coconut, ghee (butter), and quality rumen meat. It made a huge difference.

Finally I cut out the stress. The startup ended up not succeeding but that had nothing to do with me deciding to ease up. I'm happy I did and learned a valuable lesson that health comes first.

So there's my story. If you are going to supplement, be prepared for a long bumpy ride. And remember you can boost it naturally.

throaway2357238• 11 years ago

Second this. I was prescribed androgel and used it briefly. Another doctor explained the various issues associated with it and and I got off of it immediately. Now I'm working out and eating healthy, and my levels are naturally ~2x higher than they were.

johnward15• 11 years ago

Studies have shown that creams are pretty terrible. Especially if you happen to have thyroid problems. They seem to work at first and then fade out for a lot of people. Shots just simply work and are cheaper.

JosephBrown• 11 years ago

Can you provide some references? I've been prescribed T and get it via a compounding pharmacy in liposome cream form, so now I'm curious if it's actually worth it.

slantyyz5• 11 years ago

I'm on TRT for life as a result of having testicular cancer twice.

There are pros and cons to the various types of testosterone you could take. I'm using Androgel.

From what I remember when researching my options in 2007 (things have possibly changed a lot since then):

Monthly shots -- the thing with shots is that your levels go up right after you get your shot and slowly taper off. It's possible that your moods are a little off at the beginning and then you mellow out again by the time you need your next shot. Your options are to have a doctor do it for you or self-administer. Having developed an aversion to needles after my first bout of cancer, I kinda ruled this out quickly, even though it probably is cheap and effective.

Pills - easy but apparently not very good for your liver long term

Gel/Cream -- you have to worry about keeping your hands clean and physical contact, but it maintains your levels consistently since you're putting it on daily. It's admittedly inconvenient but works for me.

wavegeek5• 11 years ago

My test levels were about 200, which would be acceptable had I been 70 years old.

This is a myth. 200 is low for a healthy 70 year old. Without disease or T-killing medications, T levels fall very slowly with age alone.

johnward15• 11 years ago

I'm 28 now and I have hypogonadisn and have experience using T and other options like clomid. My total T was <120nd/dl. The lab range for this is usually 300-1000ng/dl. I was severely depressed. Moody and very angry. I experience "roid rage" in the opposite of what most people think. When my T is low I am a completely different, awful person. I literally thought I was going to kill myself.

I finally went to the doc. Got the blood work and was put ona low dosage of Testosterone. Enough to get me to the 500ng/dl range. My quality of life improved dramatically and I was the happy and productive person I used to be. I felt like I did in my early 20s instead of like I was approaching 50. Now I have to take clomiphene because the T kills my fertility. Clomid gets my hormones to the 500ng/dl range but I do not feel the same. My brain is "foggy". I'm not as sharp as I was. I'm up and down with my mood. On a higher dosage of clomid I even had experience where my brain just didn't make sane decisions. I rammed a car one time in traffic. I ran over my mailbox backing out of my garage, even though I did this thousands of times before.

Testosterone can be a miracle for some people. It saddens me that it get such a bad rep for being used/abused by athletes.

eyeJam• 11 years ago

If anyone's ever watched the documentary "Bigger, Stronger, Faster*" they raise some interesting points questioning why steroids are demonized. Professional musicians take beta-blockers, athletes get laser eye surgery and take cortisone and opiate shots before/during competition, programmers take Adderall and Modafinil, male porn stars shot their penises full of drugs to stay erect for hours on end, etc. etc. Plenty of examples of professionals "cheating" without widespread media outcry and pearl-clutching about the sanctity of the profession.

Furthermore, taking steroids won't improve your muscle-memory, proprioception, agility, sports IQ, etc... In my opinion they should be allowed in sports in some limited cases, such as recovering from an injury, where it would be administered in a controlled environment by a licensed doctor to accelerate recovery. They're a very useful drug if used properly.

seestheday3• 11 years ago

Unfortunately the problem is that they work too well. Every time they are legalized in a limited capacity they are abused in professional sports.

The effect is massively amplified if you give women drugs because they don't have testosterone levels like men do. Those records that were set in the 70's pre-testing will likely never be broken.

The issue is that if it is legal, there is a huge incentive to take it to an abusive point especially in a celebrity economy like what exists is professional sports.

In some sports, professional athletes are almost constantly injured. Off the top of my head I can give you MMA (UFC) and american football as examples but I'm sure there are many others.

Healthy sports end where competitive sport begins.[1]

Right now we have an arms race that barely keeps it at bay. It's not an ideal solution but I think its better than athletes fully abusing their bodies with massive amounts of drugs like they did back in the East German Olympic days.

For non-professional athletes, I agree with you. It should not be demonized to the extent it is.

1. Quote from Brecht, referenced many times, e.g here http://gladwell.com/drugstore-athlete/

johnward15• 11 years ago

That's a great documentary. If you haven't heard of it: http://www.biggerstrongerfastermovie.com/

hoka• 11 years ago

I do agree that it should be up to the professionals, but consider amateurs moving into professional sports.

If college football players can't take steroids, they will get __destroyed__ in the NFL. If college players can take steroids, then highschool players will stand no chance at moving up. Likewise, if you make it fine for high school players, middle school gets punished, etc.

I don't doubt that professionals could successfully regulate it and do it (mostly) responsibly. I have a severe lack of faith in desperate parents living vicariously through their kids in little league games.

nether2• 11 years ago

I got measured for low T. My urologist refused to approve TRT because according to him, there is no real "correct level" of testosterone, and that measurement is highly variable depending on the time of day. He kept telling me testosterone is not an antidepressant. Found another urologist who disagreed and told me to go through dhtcream.com. Still depressed, but I am growing more facial hair.

johnward15• 11 years ago

T can be part of depression but not the entire issue. I also found out a had sleep apnea which impacted my ability to think, my depression level, energy levels, etc. Normally if I am on T shots I am completely fine. If not I am up and down emotionally. If a doc isn't doing what you want you fire them, like you did, and find another.

ninguem2• 11 years ago

Be very careful. Usually low T has no discernible cause but sometimes it is caused by a (treatable but potentially very serious) cancer of the pituitary called a prolactinoma. Testosterone treatment can mask the symptoms until is too late. See an endocrinologist before embarking on these "over the counter" treatments.

johnward15• 11 years ago

Yep see and endo and urologist. I had a mri of the brain to rule this out.

codingdave• 11 years ago

Maybe I am overly cynical, but...

There are a lot of reasons that people may be tired and not in optimal health as they age, testosterone being just one. So when testosterone comes around, and is being pimped by high-cost cash-only doctors, it looks to me as much of a way for a doctor who hates the current medical industry to escape it, and build a high income private practice, as much as a truly holistic approach to improving their patient's lives.

I just have some inherent distrust of people who get rich quick when I blindly accept whatever they are selling.

6stringmerc• 11 years ago

Big fan of supplementation...growing up as a couch potato that medical professionals said should never, ever lift weights due to a physical handicap, I had a lot of body image issues. The fact I really enjoyed comic books didn't help my perception either. Just take a look for yourself and the way the Super Hero bodytype looks like. Straight up juiced[1].

Then, I started natural using a book from the library. Weightlifting actually helped manage a lot of my physical handicap - by being stronger, I was reducing the wear and tear on my body. Well, because I still wanted to break through to another level, I started researching supplements. Using the mind to grow the body.

Protein, Glutamine, BCAAs, Tribulus, ZMA - all of them are natural ways to increase physical strength and also grow into a lean, muscular person. They were good, and eventually I found my way to some PH products. If 19-Norandro was good enough for Mark McGwire (it wasn't he was on the real stuff, that was just a cover story), then I was game to try it! Worked great, enjoyed it but also knew that doing so over a long period of time would have side effects. Eventually 19-Norandro got banned. There are chemists doing great work in the field (I've got my eye on one vendor in particular), and they'll always be 1 step ahead of the law, IMO.

I did a couple more different products but never stacked to the point where I'd need PCT. Honestly, I think budget and liver damage fears were my driving motives. Just look at Arnold - he had to have heart surgery, and I'd bet a lot of money it's related to the muscle being exposed to years of heavy steroid doses[2].

These days I avoid PH or the juice outright. As I age, I might get back into the scene, but it's a crap shoot. There are far, far too many placebo type products out there, and the really good stuff has side effects that must be planned for, otherwise the whole quality of life part goes down, and where's the fun in that?

Overall, I'd say TRT/PH/Juice are definitely not for everybody, but they're not inherently evil. Sort of like alcohol. Not everybody can knock back a dozen beers during a weekend marathon session at home and still be productive / nice / etc, but it's possible depending on the individual.

[1] Freshman year of University the next door neighbor was a Pre-Med, about 5'2" and 205 lbs. We became pals and he let me in on the steroid secrets (cycling, GHB for sleep, etc). We did have a good laugh talking about how comic book characters reflected different steroids: Want to be Captain America? Deca. Wolverine? Winstrol. Sabretooth? Deca + Winstrol! It was a joke in a lot of ways, but kind of not...

[2] Arnold is coming! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sHvWYAzIRo

RankingMember• 11 years ago

Just curious, but would you mind specifying the handicap this helped you overcome? I'm genuinely curious and it would add more context to your story.

dr_2• 11 years ago

Assuming there are a significant number of men on here who hope to some day have a family, it's inportant to note that a significant side effect of exogenous testosterone administration is male infertility. Simplified, the excess testosterone in the blood stream sends signals that shut down the hormones essential for sperm production. This may not matter if you are mid life or older and already have children, or if you don't plan on having any, but otherwise do NOT take exogenous testosterone.

cylinder2• 11 years ago

HCG, Clomid can be taken to counter that.

dr_2• 11 years ago

And anastrazole. However you would have to stop taking exogenous testosterone and take these meds and it still potentially may not work and you could require surgery for extraction. They would raise testosterone levels, but you would not see the same "physical benefits" as a testosterone gel would provide.

bikamonki• 11 years ago

http://www.drugwatch.com/testosterone/side-effects/

nether2• 11 years ago

You can get (expensive) testosterone (DHT) cream from dhtcream.com. No prescription, legal everywhere.

lafar6502• 11 years ago

I wonder what will be the effects of all these tons of testosterone goingh through humans into water, soil and all other organisms.

Xcelerate• 11 years ago

I have a hard time believing this. My testosterone level is 1,114 ng/dL naturally and I sure don't feel pumped full of energy and ready to go all the time (I'm 24). And I was even a D1 athlete. All it means for me is a greater risk of prostate cancer (which both my grandfathers had). My doctor was concerned about it being that high.

Also, I think the rumors about men with high testosterone being aggressive or having a "player/alpha" mentality have been disproven; I don't remember which journal that study was in. I'm about the least aggressive person I know. If anything, I'm too passive and have a difficult time expressing what I want.

jesstify• 11 years ago

Transwoman here, and I have some personal experience in this regard. I've been on T blockers for about 2 years, and I have seen significant mood, hair, and skin improvements, not to mention a lower resting heart rate. My chances of getting prostate cancer have been reduced to basically nil, which is pretty great. A significant portion of the benefits are from the estrogen, but just reducing bioavailable T does make a big difference in skin, mood, and hair. On the flipside, a close friend who is a transman (meaning he is on T), and when he went on it, he became very aggressive and prone to angry outburts, developed significant acne, and a very significant increase in body hair. So... ya know, just be careful so you don't end up having crazy moodswings and back-ne

loucal3• 11 years ago

I'm sure whoever is prescribing you estrogen has told you that synthetic estrogen is incredibly hard on the liver. The reduced risk of you getting prostate cancer is as far as I understand it FAR outweighed by the likelihood that at some point you will have liver issues to deal with. Also, I am on TRT and this is somewhat anecdotal (although many 'bodybuilder' types that use testosterone support this) I have noticed the effects on skin mood and hair are stongly related to estrogen, prolactin, and progesterone levels (meaning they should be in the normal range for male or female depending on what your goal is wrt testosterone). I also agree with the commenter somewhere on here that mentioned he feels the 'roid-rage' when he is low. Also anecdotal but generally agreed upon by the community is that the mood swings come from actual 'swings' of testosterone (and bad moods are when you are low, they should call it roid-affection instead). FDA approved esthers in the US (for injection) do not allow precise daily control to mimic the natural cycle, so there can be some very minor mood changes throughout the week (my dr is open minded and lets me pin the cypionate twice weekly) but I would honestly suggest that your friend had some placebo effect goin on there. As for his 'back-ne', I would check my prolactin levels if I had bad acne on my back (sometimes I do get it, and the levels are always slightly elevated... what to do about it is another story).

Anyway, all due respect of course and I have much admiration of anyone who goes through such great lengths to 'be themselves' but please do make sure you are educated on the risks and minimizing them (I remember hearing it mentioned that the patches of estrogen are much easier on the liver than injections but that was from a tv show I think so take it with a grain of salt) I do believe that you are correct in saying >A significant portion of the benefits are from the estrogen, I just don't think you realize how much. As someone who lost a fair portion of my natural production almost instantly I can say with confidence that even if one were considering to transition to the fairer sex, losing your test without boosting the estrogen has pretty much NO positives except perhaps the reduced prostate cancer risk.

DonCarlitos• 11 years ago

Don't forget that Testosterone "feeds" prostate cancer, and that most men will have one variety of prostate cancer or another by age 75. It's often slow growing, but if one feeds it, a different story. So potential "T" users should think twice about messing with this particular hormone.

ajarmst• 11 years ago

This article seems pretty imbalanced. Modifying your natural endocrine levels (and the decline of testosterone with age in men is natural) can have significant unanticipated long-term effects (witness the problem with estrogen replacement therapy in women).

A quick Google Scholar search pops up paper with titles like "Serum testosterone is associated with aggressive prostate cancer in older men", "Increased heart attacks in men using testosterone: the UK importantly lags far behind the US in prescribing testosterone", "High Estrogen in Men After Injectable Testosterone Therapy" and "A review on the relationship between testosterone and life-course persistent antisocial behavior". There is clearly medical literature that contradicts the rosy view indicated by the article's sources.

I would have liked to see the article discuss those issues and the associated studies.

anigbrowl• 11 years ago

http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html

Testosterone is the drug of the future

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