Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

http://durham.io/2013/07/09/seth-vidal-creator-of-yum-open-source-software-killed-in-bike-accident-off-hillandale-rd/

by gigq • 13 years ago

360 397 13 years ago

We've lost a lot of great people in the last year it seems.

GuiA2• 13 years ago

That's one of the both wonderful and sad things about our field; it is so young and burgeoning that we get to interact with many of its founders and grandmasters on a daily basis, but we also get to see them pass away.

We miss you, Seth :(

jpeg_hero• 13 years ago

the human condition?

jcastro• 13 years ago

I met Seth at a Linux conference once, he was a really friendly guy and well liked, such a shame.

dylandrop• 13 years ago

Really young too. What a shame.

joonix• 13 years ago

When will we stop tolerating the flagrant waste of life that occurs every day as a result of our addiction and worship of the automobile?

akivabamberger• 13 years ago

Is this a joke? What part of this death is due to automobile worship?

_delirium4• 13 years ago

He was killed by an automobile driver. The U.S. is notorious [1] for bicyclists (and pedestrians) being hit by cars at a relatively high rate, because it prioritizes automobile infrastructure and speed (and culture) over bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure/accessibility/safety.

[1] Not to say it's the worst, just relatively bad for an advanced country.

thwest6• 13 years ago

No, this is not a joke. Having heavy motorized vehicles zooming around our urban landscape is incredibly dangerous and violent. Worse, the pilots are inattentive and feel entitled to the asphalt in front of them. Automobile worship has completely dominated city infrastructure, demanding that cyclists and pedestrians simply learn how to use a road designed for automobiles. Automobile worship has also reshaped how we've done city development, making it more difficult to do anything but drive.

tylermac13• 13 years ago

When we can find a viable, safer alternative. The automobile has been a staple of growth of modern society since it's invention. There's no other current form of transportation that can be a drop in fit.

But in reality, no matter the form of transportation, there will be deaths involved, be it accidental or not. It's a fact of life. Sad, but inevitable.

betterunix5• 13 years ago

"But in reality, no matter the form of transportation, there will be deaths involved"

Sure, but:

1. This was a hit-and-run, a problem that is unique to automobiles. Buses and trains do not have a significant hit-and-run issue; they are operated by people whose job is to operate them, and they are on regular, organized schedules.

2. Automobiles are among the most dangerous forms of transportation.

On the whole, though, I agree with the sentiment: Seth's death would be just as terrible if he had been hit by a bus, train, or airplane. This is not a story about how terrible cars are, it is a story about a man's tragic death.

xanderstrike5• 13 years ago

The bicycle could have been, and is in many cities (see Copenhagen or Amsterdam). The decision to include the automobile as "a staple of growth in modern society" is the reason it isn't a drop in fit. We designed our cities around dangerous, pollution producing power tools, and in doing so squashed out any hope of implementing something better.

If you think about it, the only reason the bicycle isn't a safe alternative is because there are cars on the road. I don't have statistics on this, but you almost never hear about solo bicycle accidents resulting in fatalities, only ones involving cars.

We're on our way back now, but it's a long road (so to speak).

darkarmani• 13 years ago

When we can find a viable, safer alternative. The automobile has been a staple of growth of modern society since it's invention.

This is true in areas where car manufacturers bought up all of the light rail and ripped it out. GM was convicted in the 50s and paid a $1 fine for anti-trust behavior. The US gov't has spent hundreds of billions of dollars on roads and highways, so that might be why it looks so viable.

*typo

Terretta2• 13 years ago

Probably the day after we stop tolerating the even more egregious waste of life that occurs every day from mass over consumption of alcohol, tobacco, and, well, food.[1]

Accidents are only 7th in the top 10 killers, and automobile accidents are a fraction of that category[2].

If we want to tackle major causes of death, this is the place to start:

1. http://www.policymic.com/articles/24365/9-leading-causes-of-...

2. http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm

eterm• 13 years ago

But if you were to sample leading causes of death among 18-40yr olds then car accidents would be top.

Smoking is abhorrent but it still tends to kill the older, car accidents kill young people.

Bosence• 13 years ago

I do feel though, that more innocent people are killed by other peoples driving mistakes than other peoples alcohol/smoking/diets.

tylermac13• 13 years ago

Exactly this. Alcohol is linked to over 75,000 deaths per year [1] while bicycle related deaths are around 700 per year [2]. There needs to be much more focus on alcohol/tobacco related injuries than deaths.

1. http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

2. http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/bikeinjuries.ht...

thwest6• 13 years ago

Personal consumption is a completely different realm than dangerous systemic infrastructure decisions. I'll give someone the right to die fat and drunk on their own, but I absolutely abhor how our roads make murderers out of us.

weland2• 13 years ago

On the other hand, when it comes to alcohol and, to some extent, tobacco, one can at least make the plea that most of the damage isn't external. I can't kill anyone other than myself if I drink too much, whereas if I'm speeding on the road, chances are I'm going to kill whatever I smash into, not only myself. Of course, there's the added penalty related to the social consequences of alcohol consumption (e.g. alienating those around me and wrecking a couple of lives).

Don't get me wrong -- I agree with your premise and with the point you are making -- but I think that, as far as the legal and public safety systems are concerned, traffic issues don't go into the same category as alcohol consumption. Alcohol consumption is primarily self-destructive, whereas dangerous driving is not (arguably, someone wearing a seatbelt and protected by airbags is probably safer than someone riding a bike when they get hit by a car).

A good first step would probably be to discourage the superfluous use of cars. I passionately hate people who absolutely have to drive their cars over a distance they could cover, on foot, in thirty minutes, when they aren't really rushed by anything. Seriously, get off your lazy ass and walk, or at least take the bus...

cobrausn2• 13 years ago

Worship? Hyperbolic bullshit. The automobile, and the high mobility it affords, is the primary cause for a lot of social and economic progress over the past century for the average person.

TylerE• 13 years ago

If you want to save lives, ban bikes. Bicycles are responible for 2% of transportation-related fatalities, but less than 1% of trips. On a per-mile basis it's even grimmer.

Zikes2• 13 years ago

Never too soon to use a celebrity's death to further an anti-automobile agenda, eh?

staunch• 13 years ago

Don't feed the trolls people.

rufugee• 13 years ago

So very sad.

I personally think the world would be a much better place if cars were relegated to intercity travel and walking/biking/public transit were the only means of intracity movement. The world would be cleaner and in all likelihood much healthier, and needless accidents like this would be avoided.

RIP.

JonSkeptic• 13 years ago

Unfortunately, this is not remotely feasible in many of the most populated cities of the US, nor many of the rural cities. [0] It's a nice thought, but not one that could ever happen.

Till we learn to drive responsibly and be aware of our environment as a matter of course, these accidents will continue to happen.

RIP.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/05/c...

bluepen44• 13 years ago

"JonSkeptic"..not surprised by the sentiment of your comment.

I think it is feasible..certainly not in all cities and maybe not in any established cities..but some small cities could implement such a solution. That or entirely new cities could be created with this design.

Just require cars to be parked when entering city limits and traded for a golf cart or Segway or something of the sort. The boundaries could be expanded as the city grows if the idea was popular..

betterunix5• 13 years ago

How is public transit not remotely feasible in large cities? At one time, many US cities (large and small) had extensive streetcar systems that were far more efficient than cars. We are now left with just a handful of such systems, not because automobiles are technically superior but because of the intersection of business and politics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...

The executive summary is this: car companies took advantage of stupid laws to destroy almost all American streetcar systems.

The sooner we undo that damage, the better. Cars make a lot of sense in rural areas and for a few very niche uses in suburban and urban areas, but they are a dangerous, polluting, and inefficient way for people to commute to work.

smsm423• 13 years ago

Not every place on Earth looks like your immediate neighborhood. For example, large chunks of Silicon Valley (not the most remote or undeveloped place in the world) are effectively inaccessible other than by car - unless you are willing to spend 3 hours commuting in each direction and are ready to subjugate your whole life to extremely sparse and inconvenient schedule of public transportation.

Like it or not, cars are the only way people can get from place with reasonable costs of living to place where it is reasonable to situate offices/industry buildings in numbers and with speed that is required by modern economy.

lutorm4• 13 years ago

I think the implication was that we should make public transportation better along with decreasing the amounts of cars.

jlgreco7• 13 years ago

This is very sad, but not every tragedy requires a corrective response.

"5 Whys" is great, but expecting a solution to everything that happens is unreasonable; at a certain point we just have to say "shit happens" instead of incrementally covering the world in bubblewrap.

johnfowler• 13 years ago

This is awful. R.I.P.

portlander52232• 13 years ago

"Hit and run bike accident". No, a hit and run automobile homicide.

gigq• 13 years ago

Good point, changed the title to hit and run accident.

danso2• 13 years ago

Fatal vehicle accidents are not always vehicular homicide/manslaughter. A standard of negligence (such as being past the DUI limit) has to be established. Hit-and-run also does not necessarily result in a homicide (or assault) charge being filed.

xanderstrike5• 13 years ago

Someone struck him with a car and killed him. I think leaving the scene after killing someone with a vehicle should satisfy any any standard of negligence.

josh26002• 13 years ago

This is terrible, but I wonder if there's a technical way we can provide a black box for bicyclists so that these sorts of injustices don't go unpunished.

RIP :(.

antr• 13 years ago

A camera mounted on the bike/helmet is the best solution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqSp4XZX0CU

dusing• 13 years ago

Funny how the video also shows them running a stop sign. I think you have to follow lights and stop signs even in the bike lane, right?

enraged_camel8• 13 years ago

It's not much of a solution. I'm at work so I couldn't listen to the video, but I watched it. It seemed like he managed to capture what the car looks like (kinda sorta), but what is really needed is something that can reliably capture the license plate.

There was one frame in this video where the license plate was sort of visible, but not readible.

segmondy• 13 years ago

how about better driver education? you say, camera? what if your govt proposes a camera at every corner as a solution? isn't that a good solution? a camera mounted on your bike/helmet might capture who ran you over. what we need is to prevent you from being run over in the first place. prevention is better than cure thus better driver education.

technotony• 13 years ago

Google Glass?

josh26002• 13 years ago

That's a really interesting comment. I think there are battery limitations, but maybe you could design Google Glass with an App that triggers on abrupt physical displacement (IE a collision).

I wonder if that would help. You definitely couldn't stream continuously because of battery and bandwidth limitations.

clicks• 13 years ago

That is interesting, but probably not a viable solution for _today_. Something like an always-on dashcam [1] would be the way to go. I'm thinking there are some out there whose energy is generated by pedaling your bike.

yum was good software. Vidal will be missed.

Rob Levin, lilo (founder) of FreeNode, was another person lost to a hit and run accident while he was riding his bike. What can be done to make biking safer in the states?

[1] http://www.tachyoninc.com/bikercam.php

enraged_camel8• 13 years ago

Seth got hit from behind. Google Glass would most likely not be very useful.

jusben1369• 13 years ago

Maybe the answer is self driving cars that via sensors are less likely to make these types of errors.

frobozz2• 13 years ago

Exactly! Punishing people after accidents, however much at fault they may be, is far less important or useful than preventing them in the first place.

Zaytes2• 13 years ago

continued human operation of commuter motor vehicles is a bug not a feature

ejs3• 13 years ago

I commute often by bicycle (and motorcycle) and wear a gopro (camera) on the helmets. Hopefully someone never needs to watch the footage, but it makes me feel better.

It does not stop the rage-passers.

protomyth• 13 years ago

Electricity shouldn't be a problem since pedaling should recharge the batteries. Four cellphone-type cameras and some flash with a small rechargeable battery and generator wouldn't be that big on space. It would be interesting to mount (maybe, 3 cameras under the seat and one strung in front). If I was going to the trouble I would probably add some LEDs to light up when I am riding.

malandrew16• 13 years ago

GoPro.

It's becoming more common for bicyclists to do what they do in Russia with dashcams.

What I don't know is if there is a model that will continuously record and maintain a log of the last hour of your trip. The only thing they would need is an accelorometer that would trigger an auto-shutoff timer of about 5 minutes in the case of a sudden change in acceleration in an accident.

betterunix5• 13 years ago

So sad to hear this! I met Seth at FUDCon a few years ago, he was a nice guy and very interesting to talk to. My condolences to his family and loved ones.

timboisvert• 13 years ago

So sad to hear this. Condolences to his family and to all my former colleagues at Red Hat. This is a huge loss for the open source community.

collinvandyck76• 13 years ago

At some point in the future we will look back on the era of the automobile as the era of carnage; the amount of life lost is staggering. I bike to work every day in a pretty bike-friendly city (compared to most) and it is still unnerving most days.

cagenut• 13 years ago

I just met Seth in-person for the first time at ansiblefest a few weeks ago, after having crossed paths with him on irc for nearly a decade. Every time I renewed a RHEL subscription at work his was a specific name I had in mind that I wanted to fund the work of. I've built my entire career on the redhat/fedora/centos/yum/cobbler/func/ansible projects he's been a major part of.

He wasn't just a prolific contributor, he was a really good guy. He helped people out in irc channels near constantly. After my first ever conference presentation he came up to me and complimented and thanked me for it. He was both a code and cultural pillar of the greater redhat community, I will miss him.

3am• 13 years ago

What a huge loss for the RDU tech community. A very decent guy by all accounts and a huge legacy in the open source world. It's very difficult seeing his handle still logged into a number of freenode channels, where he was so active and helpful.

Deepest sympathies to his colleagues, friends, and family.

oddshocks2• 13 years ago

The family wanted to keep this off social media for now. Unfortunate that you posted this.

gohrt• 13 years ago

Free charity project idea:

Create a space (website) with a voicemail phone number, guestbook, etc, designed to accept people who want to reach out to a victim of a current tragedy. Then when the news spreads, spreader include a link to something like http://reachout.to/sethvidal

So that the interested acquaintances and public can go there for official information, memorial info, and to share their thoughts, privately or publicly with pre-moderation.

Obviously, it should be quick an easy for the grief-stricked to flip on a site, and follow up with it later.

You can't stop people talking about the incident, but you can help direct people away from frustrating the victims/families with emails/calls.

JeremyNT• 13 years ago

Author of the blog post here.

My blog is intended for a small local audience, and I never intended it to "break" this story to the Internet.

I wrote my post for a couple of reasons:

- I wanted to add some context for my readers who might not be familiar with Seth's work; in the original WRAL.com article, Seth is mentioned only by name, with no other information about his accomplishments.

- I feel horrible about what happened to Seth, almost physically ill. A man I admired, an experienced cyclist, was killed on a road I have biked on many times myself. I just felt the need to write... something.

I sincerely apologize if my actions have caused grief to the family.

oddshocks2• 13 years ago

I don't think you've harmed anything. The story's all over the place by now, anyway. I am similarly sorry for the loss.

blinkingled2• 13 years ago

People, avoid biking on roads, especially after dark. There's just too much risk for it to be worth. What a terrible tragedy. RIP Seth.

ldh• 13 years ago

People, avoid driving on roads, especially after dark. There's too much risk involved in your negligent handling of several thousand pounds of metal for it to be worth carelessly ending the life of somebody simply going about their business using public infrastructure that they pay for and use in a manner much less obtrusive and obnoxious than your own.

blinkingled2• 13 years ago

I guess you are also a proponent of walking through shady neighborhoods at late nights then? While at it, do you also recommend carrying a holier than thou placard to appeal any wandering criminals to change their ways? :)

ferdo2• 13 years ago

Seth was also outspoken and political. In the political environment in which Americans live, which seems to resemble the old Soviet system in some ways, one cannot discount the possibility of it not being an accident.

antitrust3• 13 years ago

In the political environment in which Americans live, which seems to resemble the old Soviet system in some ways,

Can you tell us more about this?

ferdo2• 13 years ago

As only one example, Michael Hastings is a warning. Political dissent and protest are now being met with death and prison. Barrett Brown is another example. Smart, literate and technically proficient outspoken people are in danger if they fall afoul of the Powers That Be.

I'm not saying that this is what happened to Seth. I'm merely saying that it can't be discounted.

I answered what I always answer: “I’m going to write a story; some of the stuff you’ll like, some of the stuff you probably won’t like.
Jake came up to me. “We’ll hunt you down and kill you if we don’t like what you write,” he said. C. will hunt you down and kill you.”
The Operators: The Wild and Terrifying Inside Story of America's War in Afghanistan
by Michael Hastings

eddieroger2• 13 years ago

It's a shame that this has to turn from a really sad event to another bikes versus car debate, especially with so little information available other than it was a hit and run.

larrys• 13 years ago

On HN as on any forum (or where people get together and discuss something that just happened) that is what happens.

The event is merely a spark for a discussion.

Would it be better if all you saw was a string of "sorry to hear that" type responses (similar to a guest book in a funeral home). My opinion is no, I like the discussion.

Zikes2• 13 years ago

It would be more appropriate to share stories of our personal interactions with the deceased and to discuss their contributions to the world.

oinksoft14• 13 years ago

The author of the linked article himself says:

  as a fellow bike commuter, this story has impacted me more
  than I would have anticipated. I commute by bike, I get
  around a lot by bike, and learning that somebody I admired
  was killed in this way so close to my home has really
  struck a nerve.

It struck more than one nerve. It is extremely easy for the bicycling Hacker News user to imagine themselves in Seth Vidal's shoes. This is the sort of thing we all have nightmares about.

oinksoft14• 13 years ago

The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, they are given lip service at best in driver education and there is little attempt made at going after motorists who drive aggressively around them. As a result, you put yourself at great risk of life and limb when you ride on a road like this one: http://www.mapquest.com/?version=1.0&hk=6-LvU0mhA3 (Hillandale Rd, Durham, NC)

I accomplish all of my short-range transport by bicycle or foot, and I only very rarely will even ride on the main thoroughfare through downtown Alexandria, Washington St., because its practical speed limit is 40mph although the posted one is 25mph. Too many times drivers cut it close, honk at me to point out the audacity of crowding the auto-space, or slam their brakes without noticing my bike behind them.

Riding a bicycle on any street that has a speed limit greater than 25mph, lacks frequent stops (lights or signs), or has more than one lane is simply treacherous even for the skilled cyclist because you never know when a self-important jerk like the mystery murderer here will feel the need to shave twenty seconds off of their commute.

robbyking• 13 years ago

Which is why more people should ride. The more cyclists there are on the road the safer we all are.

enraged_camel8• 13 years ago

I'm not sure if your logic holds up to critical scrutiny. To me, more bikes would simply mean a greater potential for accidents.

What needs to be fixed is driver education, especially the driver tests.

enraged_camel8• 13 years ago

I only ride my bike on dedicated bike lanes (by "dedicated" I mean those blocked from the main road) and bike paths. Everywhere else, I ride on the sidewalk. Fortunately, most sidewalks where I live are sparsely populated, and I make sure to slow down to walking speed or dismount completely when going through areas with lots of pedestrians.

Someone told me I could get cited for riding my bike on a sidewalk. Fuck that shit. I'd rather pay $50 than get hit by a car.

ejs3• 13 years ago

People are often killed riding on sidewalks, I avoid riding on them because they are very dangerous wherever there is a driveway - cars move to the edge of the street without expecting a vehicle moving at 15mph+ on the sidewalk.

Yver• 13 years ago

You could also injure a pedestrian. Do you realize that you can hurt an elderly person on the sidewalk with a bike as much as a car can hurt you on the road?

preinheimer• 13 years ago

As a pedestrian, you terrify and bully me.

As a driver managing turns, you're traveling at a very different speed than the people I'm expecting on the sidewalk which makes turning safely much more difficult.

oinksoft14• 13 years ago

I see your point. If the speed limits are not too high though, you might want to try riding on the roads and using some tactics that help me (at least):

* If you hear a car coming up on you, always turn your head and look back at the car so that they know you see them and because faces command attention. This quick look also gives you an idea of how much the driver notices you, that is, if you have to bail in a hurry.

* If there are cars around in general, ride with a rigid posture that makes you appear a more formidable object.

* Keep close enough to the center of the road that motorists think twice before passing you, move over briefly if you want them to be able to pass (they'll appreciate it).

* Always signal your intentions if there is any traffic, bicycle or otherwise.

Critical mass has to start somewhere! :^)

MartinCron3• 13 years ago

Someone told me I could get cited for riding my bike on a sidewalk

Depending on where you ride, that may or may not actually be the case. In my city, it's absolutely legal to ride on the sidewalk as long as you yield to pedestrians.

maw• 13 years ago

* I only ride my bike on dedicated bike lanes (by "dedicated" I mean those blocked from the main road) and bike paths.*

Where I live, Mexico City, there are lots of idiots who ride in the wrong direction in those lanes. I confront some of them and am told that I am crazy, because, you know, no pasa nada.

Be happy that you have bike lanes at all; for all intents and purposes there aren't any where I live.

jessaustin3• 13 years ago

Everywhere else, I ride on the sidewalk.

Stop doing that. [DELETED EPITHET].

vanderZwan7• 13 years ago

I'm from the Netherlands, where separate bike lanes are the norm. The thought of having to share the road with cars, especially in a place where people aren't used to bike traffic, terrifies me.

Also, IIRC when a car hits pedestrian or bike, the car is always the "guilty" party because pedestrians or bikes are never a safety threat to cars (you can still be acquitted if it is clear that there's no way you could have prevented the crash). Does the US have something like that to promote cautious driving habits?

MartinCron3• 13 years ago

The thought of having to share the road with cars, especially in a place where people aren't used to bike traffic, terrifies me

It should terrify you. It's terrifying. I know dozens of people who regularly commute by bike in the ostensibly bike-friendly city of Seattle. Nearly all of them have been hit by a car at some point.

matt__rose2• 13 years ago

No, you're very lucky to live in the Netherlands.

alxndr18• 13 years ago

... when a car hits pedestrian or bike, the car is always the "guilty" party.... Does the US have something like that to promote cautious driving habits?

Quite the opposite, in fact. In NYC, drivers are seldom cited at all even when a cyclist or pedestrian has been killed. Here's the link I have on hand, but there are more http://www.streetsblog.org/2012/08/03/nypd-7371-pedestrians-...

baddox18• 13 years ago

The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles,

I tend to agree, but I can see both sides. There is also very little (and, as far as I know, zero required) bicyclist education, and many bicyclists make little attempt to drive predictably and safely either out of boldness or ignorance.

Similarly, while stricter rules and enforcement for automobile drivers is warranted, I think the same goes for bicyclists. I don't think it's appropriate to consider bicycles as "first-class vehicles" in all situations, namely in the dangerous situations you list (speed limits >~25mph, multiple automobile lanes, etc.). In those situations, I think it's reasonable to ban bicyclists outright, for the safety of the bicyclists and automobile drivers. Of course, along with that is the need for dedicated bicycle lanes, or better yet, completely separate thoroughfares for bicycles.

oinksoft14• 13 years ago

I think that a cyclist flaunting traffic laws should always be liable for accidents, but the last thing we need if we want to encourage bicycling is nanny-state policing of proper signaling and such. Any city that has resources for this ought to take a hard look at the size of their police force.

Your idea of banning cycle traffic on >25mph roads is misguided. Most cyclists have no trouble traveling at a speed greater than 25mph, even uphill.

gamache3• 13 years ago

I don't think it's appropriate to consider bicycles as "first-class vehicles" in all situations, namely in the dangerous situations you list (speed limits >~25mph, multiple automobile lanes, etc.).

Driving a motor vehicle on a road is a privilege. This privilege is represented by a motor vehicle operator's license, which may be revoked by the state for a variety of reasons.

Riding a bicycle on a non-Interstate public road is a right. If this clashes with driving habits, driving habits need to yield.

vanderZwan7• 13 years ago

I tend to agree, but I can see both sides.

Like I said in the other comment: a bike is never a threat to a car. A car is always a threat to a bike. While your points are valid, saying that that is looking at "both sides" is an inappropriate way of describing the situation.

jberryman2• 13 years ago

but I can see both sides.

This isn't a "on the one hand, on the other" issue. Even the most foolish and aggressive cyclist is almost never endangering the safety of drivers around him, even indirectly. Yet all it takes is a nudge, honk, door opening, unsignaled turn, etc. to kill a cyclist.

Bicycle etiquette is for all practical purposes not a public safety issue, and IMHO responses of the "but bicyclists can be rude" variety to incidents like these only help perpetuate a driving culture aggressive to cyclists.

In those situations, I think it's reasonable to ban bicyclists outright

Why not lower the speed limit, or add a bike lane? Just because you perceive the public roads as "car roads" and driving as "normal" doesn't make it so, and I don't think your convenience should trump someone's basic ability to get around.

yebyen• 13 years ago

Where do you live? There aren't even any roads with speed limits < 30mph here in Rochester, New York, and it's the same in Buffalo. What you're proposing up here would mean banning bicycles on all but specially marked bicycle paths.

Especially in the city, it's prohibited to ride on the sidewalk; you must use the street even where there are no specially marked bike lanes. So, what you propose seems particularly outrageous to me; the only remaining options to get around the city would be having a car or using public transportation (or going on foot.)

beachstartup2• 13 years ago

anecdotally, i can't even remember the last time i saw a bicyclist stop at a stop sign.

even the guys in their $10k road bikes and full outfits, who ostensibly take bicyclig VERY seriously, just blow through stop signs like they weren't even there. sometimes even stop LIGHTS if it's a t-stop.

especially when they're riding in their large groups. and sometimes they even ride on the wrong side of the road (LOL)

i live in santa monica, maybe it's especially bad here.

aroch8• 13 years ago

By the same token, many bicyclists freely ignore traffic laws too. They don't properly stop at stop signs or intersections (on red or yellow) and they act like pedestrians when it suits them.

[Slam] their brakes without noticing my bike behind them

You're a vehicle when you ride on the streets, it's your responsibility to maintain a safe distance from the person in front of you and to react to their brake lights. The person in front of you is well within their rights to slam on their brakes if and when they need/want

oinksoft14• 13 years ago

That's not true. If I'm a motorist, moving at speed, and I slam my brakes to grab that nifty parking spot, I am liable. Not the person who rear-ends me.

lutorm4• 13 years ago

Incorrect. You are not allowed to slam on your brakes for no good reason. It's of course very hard to prove that you did. (This does not relieve the follower from maintaining a safe distance, but you could be held partially at fault.)

Also, what about if you merge into my lane right in front of me and then slam on your brakes? In that case, you made it impossible for me to maintain a safe distance.

davidcuddeback• 13 years ago

I'm a cyclist, and it irks me a little bit every time I see cyclists act as if the rules don't apply to them. In San Francisco, this happens almost every day.

As a pedestrian, I've almost been struck a few times by cyclists running red lights while crossing Market Street. Most of those cyclists yell at me for having the audacity to be in their way. In San Francisco, it seems that I'm the exception for actually stopping at red lights on a bicycle.

curveship3• 13 years ago

Car drivers routinely ignore certain rules too: speed limits, full stops at stop signs, etc. They do this because doing so is mostly safe. It's the same with bicyclists: the rules they ignore are mostly safe too. The confusion is that, because cars and bikes are different, the rules that are safe to bend are different in each case.

malandrew16• 13 years ago

In San Francisco, according to CSC 21202, the bicyclist is allowed full use of lanes. The important clause to pay attention to is clause (c). The most important part of that clause is the use of the term "substandard width lane", which although not defined in the statute, has been established via jurisprudence to be approximately 14-15 ft. Many many rightmost lanes in SF are not 14+ ft wide, meaning that on most roads in SF you can legally ride right in the middle of the rightmost lane. This is much safer than putting yourself in the doorzone and swerving to avoid a door and getting hit by a driver on your left or leaving too little room on your lefthand side that some driver will try to squeeze through.

Every cyclist should go out and measure a lane or two here and there to get a feeling for approximately how wide a 14 ft lane is, so you know when you can legally take up the whole lane.

The only other thing to keep in mind with this, is that if you do take up the whole lane, it is your responsibility to pull over to the right periodically if the number of cars backed up behind you exceeds 5 (IIRC)

bjterry• 13 years ago

If you wait until 5 cars are backed up behind you, you could be incredibly rude to 4 vehicles of people. You should be considerate and allow vehicles to pass after a reasonable amount of time (i.e. as dictated by courtesy and not the law) and when it's safe to do so.

adrr• 13 years ago

Santa Monica has the same rules. I biked to worked for two months straight, my car never left the garage until one day someone didn't like the fact i was in the middle of the lane. Accelerated at me, and then tried to run me off the road at 35+ mph on a small street. Tired of people honking at me or cutting me off so i quit riding my bike. Not worth my life. City really needs to take every 4th or 5th street and make them bike streets where cars are allowed but required to yield to bikes at all times. No passing, no overtaking etc. Gladly ride an extra 4th blocks if means i'm not going to get run down.

baddox18• 13 years ago

This is part of what I mean by "I can see both sides." I don't approve of an automobile drivers acting aggressively and dangerously toward a bicyclist, but I also don't think it's reasonable for bicyclists to significantly impact the flow of traffic (and even just letting 5 cars pile up before moving over is a major impediment to traffic). In short, I really don't think that roads with significant automobile traffic should be shared with bicyclists (well-designed bicycle-only lanes are fine).

driverdan• 13 years ago

Texas has the same laws. In Austin the police released PR with a video telling cars about it. They also said they will not cite drivers for safely passing a bicycle over a double yellow.

tptacek3• 13 years ago

It doesn't look like this tragedy had anything to do with respect for bicyclists; the driver, who could likely at minimum be charged with manslaughter, drove off the road to avoid traffic and fled the scene of the accident.

I don't disagree with what I think is the spirit of your comment, which is that there's probably a policy response to this tragedy. To me, it highlights the all-to-lax nature of our moving violation enforcement laws; every American who gets behind the wheel (myself very much included) subjects their neighbors to tremendous risks, and the penalties and risk of detection don't create meaningful incentives.

oinksoft14• 13 years ago

I didn't intend to highlight lack of respect so much as lack of general awareness amongst motorists of the rights of bicyclists as road vehicles. In the worst cases, this manifests itself in more aggressive responses. This here was a case of negligence, not malice.

Neither source linked from the article says that the driver went off-road, both say that Seth Vidal was traveling "on Hillandale Road," that he was "a bicyclist traveling north on Hillandale Road." It makes no sense for a bicycle advocate and experienced rider to be riding off-road, so I will have to see a source to believe that.

smsm423• 13 years ago

When I've been in Munich, I've seen they have there dedicated lanes for bike traffic, which are not a part of general street and designed so that cars never go there - they are part of the same space as pedestrian walks but pedestrians are not supposed to walk there either - it is an exclusive bike space, with higher barriers for bigger danger (cars) and separation from lower danger (pedestrians). I think it works much better than what is here in California, where bicyclists share space on the road with cars. Each time I drive by a cyclist on the road, I can't help thinking how small mistake it would take - either from his/her side or from driver's side - for a tragedy to happen. That's why I am very reluctant to go on such shared spaces when I'm biking - I'd much prefer to have a space of a sidewalk than on a road.

yason• 13 years ago

However, this isn't a bicycle problem: it's an urban planning problem. If you design for cars (multi-lane high-speed roads), this is what you get. Unfortunately, riders and pedestrians will suffer for now.

Hint: Mount a retractable side flag to your bicycle and hang a sharp, metal object at the end where the reflector is. Leave it hanging on a long enough string (10-15cm) so as to allow it to move around easily. That should keep car drivers away, at least those who appreciate the paintwork on their cars.

curveship3• 13 years ago

That's not where Seth was hit. From the reports I've heard so far (I'm a Durhamite and knew Seth socially), he was hit on the south end of the block, where it's a totally different road: http://goo.gl/maps/DQxO6 .

That block of Hillandale Road changes so radically in one block for historical reasons: the narrow section you see above is just as it emerges from a golf course, and the city has been unable to expand that section of road, so I've been told, because the golf course owns the shoulders and has resisted efforts.

All the cyclists in town know it as a dangerous section, but are forced to use it as it's one of few routes over I85, the freeway visible in your mapquest link.

oinksoft14• 13 years ago

Thanks so much for clarifying this, I just chose the point where the road crossed I-85 because the reports said it happened near that interchange. Truth be told, that stretch you show is even more frightening to me for the reasons you describe -- it's exactly the sort of road where drivers who just got off the highway would feel "stuck" behind a cyclist, and it's so narrow.

ethomson2• 13 years ago

A tragedy. I knew Seth - albeit just barely - through friends in Durham. Great guy; I knew he was a fellow cyclist but I had no idea that he was also a programmer.

One of his most recent tweets is about bike commuting: "Just enjoy the ride."

My heart goes out to his friends and family.

pigs• 13 years ago

Damn, this is sad. I'll echo the other comments here that he was a nice guy. I was an undergrad at Duke circa 1999-2000 and knew him through the Duke LUG. I was a noob, and he always showed a fair amount of patience with my questions on the mailing list. Later on the LUG started meeting for beers on Friday afternoons and he was just as friendly in real life. He was one of those guys that seemed like a computing god for me so early in my career.

joeyh• 13 years ago

I'm a Debian guy. I randomly encountered Seth at a hotel in Berlin, and we spent several very jetlagged hours in the lobby waiting for rooms to open up and talking about everything from yum performance to peak oil to blacksmithing. That trip turned out to be my worst European trip ever -- most of my other memories of it involve shivering under an expensive feather duvet and trying not to infect anyone when I dragged myself to meetings. Seth let me have a positive memory of that trip. We swam in different circles online and I only knew him briefly, but he was clearly a great guy.

(Also, this is the second friend of mime to be killed in a hit and run car vs bike. The other was lilo. Sucks.)

stevesalevan• 13 years ago

I had the opportunity to work with Seth on the Func project and knew him to be a seriously stand-up dude who cared deeply about the quality of his work and the people who used it. You just had to say 'skvidal' on #fedora-devel and, as if by magic, he'd appear and get you unblocked on whatever it was you were hacking on. It was just unbelievable, I've never known a developer that cared so much about making people's lives easier.

Everyone who had the privilege to be in Seth's orbit knew he was a hell of a developer, a hell of a sysadmin, and a man who worked his ass off to make the world of Linux a better place, and by god did he make it so.

RIP Seth, I will miss you greatly and I know that there must be a massive crowd of folks up there vouching for you, having saved this mortal world from dependency hell.

mpdehaan2• 13 years ago

Hi Steve (and fellow Func contributor!).

Amen.

The influence Seth has had on my career, in fact the way I look at so many things, has been so incredibly huge I don't know what to say. He's helped me so much in so many ways, influenced the way I think in so many ways, without Func my current company wouldn't even exist and who knows what I'd be doing.

If there's any advice here to take away that I might have learned from a lot of great memo-list posts from Seth, if anything at all, is go make the world a better place. Don't just write software. Care about stuff and making the world a better place. It's important. And take some time to let your yard get mowed by goats, because it's funny to watch :)

We will all miss you a ton.

Eisbar• 13 years ago

UK residents - please consider signing the .gov.uk epetition [1] for the government to implement the "Get Britain Cycling Report" [2]. Report Summary [3].

The petition is close to 70,000 signatures and should be debated in parliament when it gets to 100,000.

RIP

[1] http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/49196 [2] http://allpartycycling.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/get-brita... [3] https://allpartycycling.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/get-brit...

nnq3• 13 years ago

I used to drive a bike trafficked roads, even at night, but I stopped doing this after almost hitting a biker while driving when I realized how hard it is for a driver to see and avoid bikers in traffic or for bikers to go through heavy trafficked area safely.

Driving a bike through traffic or on a trafficked road at night or driving through a bikers area is basically the same as driving while drunk and stoned at the same time, only you don't realize it until you get hit by a car or you hit a biker with your car and its too late for both of you then (though if you do it, have at least the freakin decency and humanity to call an ambulance before running from the scene!)...

alxndr18• 13 years ago

...wow.

Maybe you shouldn't be driving.

nnq3• 13 years ago

we all supraevaluate our competencies in lots of areas, including driving. I haven't ever actually hit anyone and I adopted a more prudent driving style in biker areas since, but I'm just being realistic about it and recognize the fact that I tended to be over confident in my driving skills, and considering that most people I know have equal or worse driving skills, I can only assume that they also supraevaluate theirs (maybe other would have just rationalized an "almost hit accident" and think something along the lines of "if my reflexes were good enough to avoid it this time, they will be good enough to avoid it next time too" and ignore the statistical side of things). And I would never do a hit-and-run but I'm realistic about assuming lots of people will be tempted to do so and some will give in to this temptation (imagine hitting someone in a foreign country and contemplating the possibility of spending time in a foreign jail for this!).

...that's why I really think that driving is and area where machines can get to be much better than humans and really hope to see thing's like Google's autonomous car perfected and used.

mindslight2• 13 years ago

though if you do it, have at least the freakin decency and humanity to call an ambulance before running from the scene

Due to the non-anonymous nature of current telephones, this is impossible.

nnq3• 13 years ago

...there's a very simple non-technical solution to this, but I won't tell you (read: "everyone" instead of "you" as we're on a public forum) what the solution is because after knowing it you may be more tempted to flee from an accident scene (you can probably figure out the solution by yourself if you have a brain and an opsec oriented mind) and I'd feel morally responsive for it :P

antitrust3• 13 years ago

I am sorry to hear of his death. He sounds like someone I would have liked to know.

gaoshan• 13 years ago

The general availability of bike friendly travel options in the United States is one that it woefully underserved.

In the past couple of years I have heard of so many bike/vehicle accidents that I no longer ride anywhere that can be reached by a motor vehicle.

I used to ride on the road but the best option for me was a bike lane that offered about a meter of space between myself and vehicles in a 55 mph zone. In many places I had to risk just riding on the edge of the roadway and hoping for the best and I had my share of getting brushed by side-view mirrors. No more. It is simply too unsafe to risk riding anywhere that I am not physically separated from traffic.

D9u• 13 years ago

My condolences to Mr Vidal's family & friends.

MrBra• 13 years ago

damn... how stupid human beings can be? One's life is priceless, and we sacrifice it because we have no patience for traffic ?

Damn... this is so hard to bear, I hope family will receive all positive energy and love we are sharing here and beyond, and that this energy will surprisingly shape their life in the future in a way that it will somehow ease up their suffering a bit, and then one day make their life normal again, togheter with the reaching of the wisdom that he is still around us/them.

With love..

talos• 13 years ago

How is this a "bike accident"? It sounds like a hit-and-run murder, for which the driver ought be prosecuted at the very least for vehicular manslaughter.

kacy• 13 years ago

The guy turned himself in. http://www.wral.com/man-charged-in-durham-hit-and-run-that-k...

jwildeboer• 13 years ago

Disgusting that so many post about what bicycle riders are to blame for instead of getting together here and work hard on identifying the driver of the car that killed Seth. Community, show your power and do something good in all this evil.

A hit and run driver ranks very low on my acceptance level. As a fellow Red Hatter that knew Seth I want to have the driver identified and brought to justice.

kickingvegas• 13 years ago

FWIW, I turn on my bike lights during the day for safety.

tlear• 13 years ago

Sad truth is that if you get hit and hurt or killed while riding a bike, chances of guilty part being punished are almost non-existent. In some places people will actively try to run you from the road, almost everywhere you gona get doored time to time. Thats just the reality of biking in a city in North America.

Still chances of death or a really bad accident are relatively low, and biking is way more fun then public transit. I have not been doored or hit in a few years so I continue with it, but I am also very defensive while riding basically assuming that every car will try to run me from the road so I try as much as I can to give myself space to react. Remember police do not give a shit at all, so your life is in your hands and those of random fucks trying to shave 5 seconds from getting to wherever they are going.

russianbandit• 13 years ago

Is this true? If someone is killed by a car while biking, the car driver won't get time in jail?

Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

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