US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz9l9venjd8o

by throw0101d • 7 days ago

46 117 7 days ago

bbc.com

throw0101d8• 7 days ago

Perhaps worth noting that most medical and sleep/circadian research folks want permanent standard time:

* https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-cal...

* https://www.labmanager.com/new-position-statement-supports-p...

* http://www.chronobiology.ch/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/JBR-D...

* https://www.chronobiology.com/impact-daylight-saving-time-ci...

* https://esrs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/To_the_EU_Commiss...

* https://www.chronobiocanada.com/official-statements

* https://srbr.org/advocacy/daylight-saving-time-presskit/

* https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10476036/

* https://old.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/dq2nv3/

The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. Four peer reviewers provided expert critiques of the initial submission, and the SRBR Executive Board approved the revised manuscript as a Position Paper to help educate the public in their evaluation of current legislative actions to end DST. […] The choice of DST is political and therefore can be changed. If we want to improve human health, we should not fight against our body clock, and therefore, we should abandon DST and return to Standard Time (which is when the sun clock time most closely matches the social clock time) throughout the year. This solution would fix both the acute and the chronic problems of DST. We therefore strongly support removing DST changes or removing permanent DST and having governing organizations choose permanent Standard Time for the health and safety of their citizens.

* https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/07487304198541...

Recent US public opinion:

As the March 9 [2025] switch to daylight saving time (DST) approaches in the U.S., the majority of Americans (54%) say they are ready to do away with the practice. By contrast, 40% of U.S. adults say they are in favor of daylight saving time, while 6% are uncertain.

[…]

The plurality of Americans, 48%, say they would prefer to have standard time the whole year, including summer. Half as many, 24%, prefer having daylight saving time in place the whole year, including winter. The smallest percentage, 19%, prefer the status quo of switching between the two each year.

* https://news.gallup.com/poll/657584/half-daylight-saving-tim...

JMKH42• 7 days ago

In the medium term wouldn't it likely not matter? Schedules will adjust to whatever permanent time system is adopted.

macintux3• 7 days ago

I doubt it. People seem to have a strong aversion to sleeping before sunset.

PunchyHamster• 7 days ago

It does depending what you do. For example, I'd rather have more sunlight available after my work day ends.

But someone say working physical, outdoor job might prefer to have more sunlight early on.

Or vice versa, have less of their work day in the afternoon heat peak

yearolinuxdsktp• 7 days ago

I think that the gallup poll is flawed because it does not explain what daylight saving versus standard time is. I just spoke to an educated grad student, who thought that we were in standard time right now. Because the sun is out later during daylight saving time, the name is somewhat counter-intuitive. Also, because it’s on for most of the year, DST feels “standard.”

garciansmith2• 7 days ago

I've definitely talked to people that though daylight savings time is the time used in the winter, since that's when there are the fewest daylight hours and you need to "save" them or something.

damnesian• 7 days ago

Studies have been conducted about the safety of sticking to one time. The ones who are the most vulnerable are kids waiting for buses in the dark. We can't move to dynamic school times because we are still working the same paradigm as the industrial revolution- same schedule every day, year in year out. And society is simply too divided and fractured, and the motives too hidden and craven, to decide to move en masse to a dynamic schedule.

BeetleB8• 7 days ago

Studies also show that permanent standard time is better than permanent daylight time. But for some reason, the US wants to go against the rest of the world on this.

ghaff6• 7 days ago

You are aware that at least much of Europe uses a similar system to what the US uses today?

etrautmann• 7 days ago

For what reasons is it better? I’d rather have the evening light than the first 20 minutes when I get up.

bs7280• 7 days ago

School start times should be pushed back an hour anyways. Students learn better, especially middle school + highschool age. The only reason we don't is because it conflicts with parents working schedules.

GoblinSlayer3• 7 days ago

Every division of society should just use its own schedule, then the number of divisions doesn't matter.

lebuffon• 7 days ago

"Standards are great. Everybody should have one!"

    Charles Moore, author of the Forth programming language

ghaff6• 7 days ago

To the degree kids are standing around outside, they're already in the dark in northern US states (to say nothing about Canada and areas of Europe) for part of the year even with standard time.

And, yes, dynamic school schedules don't work because they need to be synced at some level with work schedules. A one-time shift might work though.

I mostly don't have a dog in this hunt. I pretty much set my own schedule absent the odd morning appointment.

Auracle3• 7 days ago

In the northern states, sure. But now you’re expanding it to southern states and places on the edge of the transition zones.

Also, 2 hour late starts for cold are a fairly common thing to happen due to cold in northern states. Now you’re talking about 3 hour late starts.

BeetleB8• 7 days ago

To the degree kids are standing around outside, they're already in the dark in northern US states

It's a continuum, not a discrete state. Even in the northern states, they're out in the dark for perhaps 4-6 weeks. Now that will get extended to, say, 10+ weeks.

BeetleB8• 7 days ago

and put the US under time currently observed between March and November - known as permanent standard time.

Was that a typo?

gwbas1c7• 7 days ago

Am I the only person who thinks its odd that my government (US) thinks its can tell me what time to get up and go to bed?

Before timezones, "noon" was the point where the sun was the highest in the sky.

It seems we should focus on having our timezones be more in line with what "noon" is supposed to be: IE, major population centers should have "noon" close to true noon, with a little more flexibility for rural areas so they can stay on the same time as their closest major population center.

whycome2• 7 days ago

Or have a universal clock. But have regional start times. 9-5 makes no sense.

IAmBroom2• 7 days ago

9-5 is a red herring for this topic - but why does it make no sense to you?

gwbas1c7• 7 days ago

That's called UTC. Most datetimes are stored that way and converted to local time in the UI.

(To prove it, open finder or explorer and look at a file's modified time. Then change your time zone. You might need to refresh the window. You can even select UTC as your computer's time zone. It's how some cloud servers operate.)

quentindanjou• 7 days ago

I also really like having 12pm being the moment the sun is at the highest point. But I think the whole point of that change is to simplify and this would go the other way.

justinlink• 7 days ago

that became an issue with the introduction of trains and their schedule.

how do you think this would work today with our interconnected world? we absolutely need standardized times or everything falls apart.

gwbas1c7• 7 days ago

Please re-read my comment

jcranmer3• 7 days ago

Okay, so you travel from, say, Washington DC to NYC and then you have to set your clock back by... I think it's like 13 minutes?

Which is why railroads started instituting time zones in the late 19th century: because it turns out having to recalibrate your watch every hour or so is a recipe for creating train crashes. Railroad time didn't become standard time until the early 20th century, in large part because a lot of the smaller cities were pretty irate at having to adjust their clocks. (It also doesn't help that coincidentally, places like Chicago and New York City are very near the center meridian of their time zone).

dave78• 7 days ago

places like Chicago and New York City are very near the center meridian of their time zone

Chicago is very close to the eastern edge of the Central time zone, though I know that was not true throughout history.

gwbas1c7• 7 days ago

No, you completely misinterpreted me. Just keep true noon within ~30 minutes of noon in population centers, and allow rural areas ~45 minutes. DC and NYC would be in the same time zone.

Right now DC's true noon is more than an hour off. That's too much. (Where I live, my true noon is always ~30 minutes off, both in standard and dst, so I can't complain.)

IAmBroom2• 7 days ago

Ideal and impractical. Even with modern wifi.

Why not have your own timezone based on where you are standing right now? Oh, right, because that's the opposite of universal (or at least worldwide).

One-hour shifts are manageable. One-minute shifts between population centers are not. Your meeting would start at precisely 8:03:38, your time. The business you are calling would close its doors 13 minutes before 5 pm.

gwbas1c7• 7 days ago

Please re-read my comment

mikey_p• 7 days ago

This is a great question, and theres alot of history there, this is how time used to work until travel and communication speeds necessitating coordination over larger areas required it. The biggest driver in North America? Railroads.

Great documentary on the history of human relationship with time is available here: https://www.pbs.org/video/pbs-indies-time-1/

Group_B• 7 days ago

Technically no. Work and School dictate when we get up and go to bed. It's all relative. We could create a timezone where 12:00PM is in the morning. We are just used to this idea that morning, afternoon, evening, and night need to correspond to specific time values. For example, China uses just one timezone. So local regions just adapt to what logically makes sense. In a perfect world, local regions would adapt to the amount of daylight we have for each season, like it was before timekeeping and timezones. So school and work would shift when they start based off the rising of the sun. This isn't practical though for multiple reasons. It would cause chaos and confusion for work shifts, scheduling etc.

eesmith4• 7 days ago

You can get up or go to bed whenever you wish.

You can say today's date is 27 Messidor Year CCXXXIV if you wish.

The problem is when you want to coordinate events between people following different time conventions.

Timezones as we know it started off as a railroad company invention. Does the London/Birmingham train follow London time or Birmingham time? Does the stop in Rugby use Rugby time?

DST in the US used to be a regional choice until 1966. Coordination became an issue.

"The lack of standardization led to a patchwork where some areas observed DST while adjacent areas did not, and it was not unheard of to have to reset a clock several times during a short trip (e.g., bus drivers operating on West Virginia Route 2 between Moundsville, West Virginia, and Steubenville, Ohio, had to reset their watches seven times over 35 miles)." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_time_in_the_United_...

with a little more flexibility for rural areas so they can stay on the same time as their closest major population center.

We can do that already. I remember when most of Indiana didn't follow DST. Businesses in Danville, Illinois, near the border followed Indiana time by changing the listed hours of operation during summer.

Speaking of Indiana, 'Attitudes began to change in the 1990s, as Indiana's time zone situation was seen as impeding the state's economic growth. Interstate travel and commerce were difficult as people wondered, "what time is it in Indiana?"' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_Indiana

Having 12:00 noon be when the sun is highest makes these issues reappear.

gwbas1c7• 7 days ago

No $#1t, Please re-read my comment

Sindisil2• 7 days ago

As usual, when Congress finally moves to address an issue, they manage to do it in the stupidest possible way. Permanent Standard Time is the better choice in nearly every way.

Ar-Curunir• 7 days ago

Why so? Having more time in the evening after work is way better. Getting out of work and it already being dark is depressing.

Sindisil2• 7 days ago

And many people find it depressing getting going in the morning when it's still dark.

Plus, in Winter most people at best get off work around dusk anyway.

In addition, most studies indicate health benefits for standard time relative to both switching and permanent DST.

We tried permanent DST back in the 70s, and it sucked. We switched back. If we're going to make a change, it should be to standard time.

bsimpson2• 7 days ago

Glad to see progress made on this.

In my 20s, I strongly considered taking some time off to create and drive petitions across the Pacific states to put us all on permanent PDT (matching Arizona). In my research, I saw it would take an act of Congress to make that happen, so I stood down.

BeetleB8• 7 days ago

to put us all on permanent PDT (matching Arizona).

Arizona is (wisely) on permanent standard time.

bsimpson2• 7 days ago

Yes, but PDT = MST

7777777phil• 7 days ago

Wasn’t this already tried at least once and then reverted some 2 years later?

Brybry2• 7 days ago

Yeah but now everyone has cell phones and LED street lights that sometimes feel brighter than the sun.

It's worth trying again, it's not like it can't be reverted again.

throw0101d8• 7 days ago

Wasn’t this already tried at least once and then reverted some 2 years later?

In the US in the 1970s, but more recently in Russia as well:

* https://globalnews.ca/news/1469007/russia-abolishes-daylight...

* https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/russia-state-d...

Brybry2• 4 days ago

Note that, as your sources state, Russia tried permanent DST and changed to permanent standard time instead.

They didn't revert back to a system of switching between DST and ST annually.

jmuguy• 7 days ago

Maybe they'll actually do it this time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_time_observation_in_...

slackfan• 7 days ago

This is fine, provided we add the extra necessary time zone.

Georgelemental• 7 days ago

Boo, hiss. Permanent Standard Time is better in every way https://savestandardtime.com/

tantalor2• 7 days ago

These arguments aren't very convincing.

hammock3• 7 days ago

Agree but now we could change 9-5 workday to 8-4 and that is better also

GoblinSlayer3• 7 days ago

It's just names, might as well call it humpty dumpty time. Local time is defined by offset from UTC.

SAI_Peregrinus• 7 days ago

Boo! Permanent Dawn time is better. Every day at 03:00, set the time when the upper limb of the sun will cross the sea-level horizon at the equator to 06:30. That means kids never have to wait for the bus in the morning in the dark, except at high latitudes in winter but who cares about those kids right?

7e2• 7 days ago

That is actually better in every way! Assuming the time zones are 2D so the dawn is local. It would probably cut down on cancer rates, too, by harmonizing circadian rhythms.

7e2• 7 days ago

Boo, in the age of AI we need two dimensional time zones which skew the clock a few seconds every night, continuously, so the sunrise is always at 6 am. Humans were made to rise with the sun.

D13Fd• 7 days ago

I agree completely. But in the end permanent daylight time is better than flip flopping every year, and much more achievable.

I think if people understood that daylight time = get up early and standard time = get up late, most would agree that getting up late is better.

gavinsyancey• 7 days ago

I want to to be light out after work so I can do things outside. Ideally for as long as possible. I don't care if I have to get up and start work in the dark; that time is lost to me anyways and that's what lights are for.

ksec• 7 days ago

I wonder if UK will follow as well.

WarmWash3• 7 days ago

Permanent standard time means less sunlight time after work.

Permanent DST means kids walking to school in the dark.

Changing the clock twice a year fixes that and lets us avoid both, with the only cost being people complaining for a day afterwards. It's like ripping off the bandaid, instead of doing a slow agonizing pull that lasts months.

And yes, I know some people take like 6 weeks to adjust and they will complain incessantly to stop it, but for the whole group, the least painful thing (I'd argue by far) is just moving the clock an hour.

hammock3• 7 days ago

I agree permanent standard time is a better solution. But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway.

alistairSH3• 7 days ago

Does anybody actually work 9-5 (ie 7 hours assuming they take a break or two)?

ajsnigrutin• 7 days ago

But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway.

Why not change the working hours of stores, and tv programming and other schedules too?

In the end, you get the same thing as a clock change, but having to change the times of everything everywhere.

antisthenes2• 7 days ago

Fuck all the night owls, right?

Navarr• 7 days ago

What if we just split the difference?

America/New_York becomes UTC-04:30

alistairSH3• 7 days ago

Pretty sure there are studies that indicate the time shift is actually harmful - more car accidents, more heart attacks, all sorts of things.

Really, the question is which system (standard, DST, or both) causes the least damage?

Also worth noting we tried permanent DST a few decades ago and it was repealed within a year because people didn't like it. Approval in advance was north of 70% and in the aftermath below 40%, IIRC.

kccoder• 7 days ago

One thing I'll never understand is why we shift the clocks at 2am on Sunday vs Saturday? Why not give people twice the number of days to adjust???? Seems like that would reduce some of the harms of the shift.

Personally, I'd prefer permanent standard time.

willchis2• 7 days ago

You're not a software developer, are you ;)? I'm not working on any timezone-aware products right now but I feel for all my brothers and sisters in the trenches if this passes and has to be fixed everywhere!

WarmWash3• 7 days ago

Even worse than that, it will pass, people will realize it actually sucks, then they we will go back to the quick and nearly painless "rip off the bandaid" approach.

throw0101d8• 7 days ago

I'm not working on any timezone-aware products right now but I feel for all my brothers and sisters in the trenches if this passes and has to be fixed everywhere!

Things have improved though: back in the 2000s when the 'Bush DST' change occurred, all sorts of software had hard-coded assumptions.

This is because US developers, who wrote a good portion of OS and other software, had never experienced a tzdata update first hand. So that when (e.g.) PST8PDT had its rules changed, it turns a lot of stuff needed to be rebooted to pickup things up.

A bunch of code was put in to notice changes dynamically, so in 2026 things should hopefully be smoother if there are new rules.

throw0101d8• 7 days ago

Permanent DST means kids walking to school in the dark.

It means much more than that:

Later sunrises and sunsets, as seen with pDST, are associated with multiple long-term health outcomes including increases in stroke, heart attacks, diabetes, obesity, and cancer.[8–10]
The increase in obesity and other cardiovascular health problems show that even if DST were to encourage exercise in some individuals it is not enough to outweigh the effects of sleep and circadian disruption on food choices, metabolism, hunger hormones, and glucose control and other cardiovascular risk factors.[11,12]

* https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10476036/

The peer reviewed literature on the effects of changing time, pDST, and pST is quite extensive:

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48920869

GoblinSlayer3• 7 days ago

And health problems will pump money into big pharma.

WarmWash3• 7 days ago

I'm going to be dubious of any study that has a call to action section and the author is the vice president of an advocacy group for their cause. It's a little bit of a "we investigated ourselves and found we were right about everything".

undersuit• 7 days ago

You know what maybe all schools in the US shouldn't start at 7:30-8:15.

Similar idea with businesses.

Maybe people living in northern latitudes can have a different schedule than than south.

Spartan-S63• 7 days ago

Better solution: Adopt summer and winter hours to follow the sun rather than arbitrarily changing the clocks and interrupting sleep schedule and circadian rhythms.

BeetleB8• 7 days ago

with the only cost being people complaining for a day afterwards.

I complain all summer long.

antisthenes2• 7 days ago

with the only cost being people complaining for a day afterwards

Tell me you never had issues with sleep without telling me you never had issues with sleep.

johnohara• 7 days ago

In the upper midwest, daylight savings time generally gives way to tractor-mounted LED time as contracted harvesting companies switch into high production to beat the late-fall rain.

flying4781• 7 days ago

The engineer in me wants standard time, but the human in me wants daylight time.

ghaff6• 7 days ago

Essentially you're just redefining the standard UTC offset for US timezones.

jcranmer3• 7 days ago

Permanent DST sounds good to a lot of people, until they actually experience it. The US went on permanent DST in the 1970s and support plummeted after the first winter in DST (which is why we're not on it anymore). Of course, since it was 50 years ago, that means most people alive in the US don't remember the days of permanent DST.

The problem, I think, is that what a lot of people want is they want the sun to set quite late, like it does in summer time. But DST isn't going to give you those long summer afternoons in winter, because the sun just isn't up long enough; and the trade-off you'd make for maybe coming off work into the start of dusk is that dawn would start after you start working, which turns out to be pretty bad for your circadian rhythm.

throw0101d8• 6 days ago

The US went on permanent DST in the 1970s and support plummeted after the first winter in DST (which is why we're not on it anymore).

More recently Russia tried pDST and went away from it:

* https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/russia-state-d...

A more southern-lattitude country, Turkey, has stuck with pDST, though some folks don't/didn't like it because of enrichment allegations:

* https://www.turkishminute.com/2024/10/31/permanent-daylight-...

water-data-dude• 7 days ago

The only time the Sunshine Protection Act has passed the senate was when gosh danged Tom Cotton wasn't there[0]. I swear, he's in the pocket of Big Time[1].

[0]https://www.mediaite.com/politics/that-daylight-saving-time-...

[1]https://www.cotton.senate.gov/news/speeches/floor-speech-on-...

Auracle3• 7 days ago

For night owls and teenagers, who already have a hard time in society, Daylight Saving Time makes things far worse. It’s been tried and failed, already, primarily due to school/kids issues. The sun will rise really, really late in the dead of winter in some places. Sleep experts are all pretty much in agreement that permanent Standard Time is better.

I’d be all for permanent Standard Time but there’s no way that’ll happen with the old people in charge of our government. Most of them probably wake up at 4am already.

rconti• 7 days ago

As a night owl who sleeps late, I'm stoked to not waste morning daylight while I'm sleeping, and have more time in the evening to go out and do shit before it gets dark.

throw0101d8• 7 days ago

        I don't really care how time is reckoned so long as there is some
        agreement about it, but I object to being told that I am saving
        daylight when my reason tells me that I am doing nothing of the kind.
        I even object to the implication that I am wasting something
        valuable if I stay in bed after the sun has risen.  As an admirer
        of moonlight I resent the bossy insistence of those who want to
        reduce my time for enjoying it.  At the back of the Daylight Saving
        scheme I detect the bony, blue-fingered hand of Puritanism, eager
        to push people into bed earlier, and get them up earlier, to make
        them healthy, wealthy and wise in spite of themselves.
        
         -- Robertson Davies, The diary of Samuel Marchbanks,
                Clarke, Irwin (1947), XIX, Sunday

* https://github.com/eggert/tz/blob/main/northamerica#L75

nozzlegear• 7 days ago

Sleep experts are all pretty much in agreement that permanent Standard Time is better.

I wonder why we can't just push school back later in the winter? I guess that'd be a little disruptive to society (all the parents have to change their schedules depending on how it's implemented), but things are already disruptive with the time change, and summer vacation schedules, and so on.

Just spitballing, I'd prefer permanent Standard Time myself too.

jjav2• 5 days ago

For night owls and teenagers, who already have a hard time in society, Daylight Saving Time makes things far worse.

As a lifelong night owl, I can say you have it backwards.

The time used in the summer is ideal, as the sun sets later. I despise the winter time when it is dark at 4pm. It might be light early at dawn but as a night owl I'm asleep then so it is a waste.

baal80spam• 7 days ago

Nice, congrats US! EU promises to stop this madness every year for the last 6 years, and apparently it's impossible.

billev2k• 7 days ago

Morons.

tantalor2• 7 days ago

We should really standardize on Time Cube

https://www.timecube.net/

knifeinhead• 7 days ago

If this is really a conflict on which side to pick when we go permanent, why not just cut it in half and make that permanent? Like India has; it's a half hour in between.

xtiansimon• 6 days ago

Of all the things Congress could be doing right now, it’s this!?

US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

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