Airbnb is banning indoor security cameras

https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/11/24097107/airbnb-indoor-security-camera-ban

by matbilodeau • 2 years ago

341 500 2 years ago

giantg23• 2 years ago

Typical BS reasoning. The hidden cameras are already against policy. Do they really think expanding the policy to all indoor cameras is going to stop those actions? If anything, people looking to protect their property will now have more incentive to place hidden cameras if there are no options for allowable ones.

Delumine3• 2 years ago

It feels to me that AirBNB hosts are an entitled group of people. They want all the benefits of renting out their place (in most cases, it goes against the original intent of renting a spare room, or family home), but want to make the experience less than ideal for customers. There's a multitude of rules, chores, invasions of privacy (Cameras, decibel monitors, et al).

These are supposed to be vacations, not a walking-on-eggshells experience because the host is constantly spying on you. If there's damage, submit a claim against the person.

lawlessone• 2 years ago

In a lot of countries many of the hosts are violating zoning laws and evading tax to.

A lot of people are getting very tired of being subjected to weekend after weekend of stags and hen parties because the neighboring apartment was turned into a hotel room.

Not to mention the extra pressure it's put on property and rents.

giantg23• 2 years ago

Yeah, and this rule change won't change any of those problems. We can already see that the prior rules were being ignored by the problem hosts.

olliej• 2 years ago

Yup.

I have never had an Airbnb that was not clearly an illegal hotel.

rayiner• 2 years ago

They want all the benefits of renting out their place (in most cases, it goes against the original intent of renting a spare room, or family home), but want to make the experience less than ideal for customers.

In the first part of that sentence you characterize the transaction as akin to renting out a spare room, but in the second part you characterize the guests as "customers." Historically, if you rented a room from someone, you were subject to all sorts of rules, invasions of privacy, etc. In many circumstances, that's still the case (e.g. with live-in nannies).

What's actually happening is that guests treat AirBnBs like hotel rooms, and hosts are doing the same thing. It's just a commercial, arm's-length transaction.

jlarocco2• 2 years ago

We already have a solution, and they're called hotels.

Society forgot why hotels were created, so now we're re-learning it via AirBnB.

baby• 2 years ago

I had one once in my living room. I was pissed. The host told me it had written about it in the description. Sure enough it was there when I looked carefully. Still what the heck. In a Boston Airbnb with my parents visiting from abroad. I ended up leaving a one star review, and he begged for me to take it down. I explained long and large how wrong what he did was and left my one star review. Felt good.

the__alchemist• 2 years ago

That review was almost surely removed by AirBnb.

neom• 2 years ago

I had this happen in Seoul, the host messages me and asked me to not leave the AC on when I went out (it was a 10-minute walk down to the corner store) - I was a little confused how they knew I'd left it on, so I purposefully left it on and went out, sure enough I got a message as soon as I left. I messaged back and said it wasn't on, and they said they had a camera and could see it's on. I contacted Airbnb and they moved me to a hotel that day, but I wasn't super stoked.

Scoundreller11• 2 years ago

Had an airbnb that locked out its thermostat within a range outside our preferences.

Nothing an ice pack wrapped in a kitchen towel on top of said thermostat couldn’t resolve.

digging3• 2 years ago

Making small changes to policy like this will continue to have no effect on the negative externalities of AirBNB rentals.

Will this improve guest privacy? No, hidden cameras are too difficult to detect and too easy to install.

Will this prevent AirBNBs becoming party houses/apartments in residential areas? No, obviously not, since that's apparently already banned.

Will this collect commercial taxes from investment property owners illegally renting out AirBNBs in residential zones? Of course not.

Et cetera.

ActualHacker• 2 years ago

But they get to remind everyone that they're the "good guys", and they're "trying"

CapcomGo• 2 years ago

My guess is it will stop property owners from using cameras openly indoors as they have been allowed to before.

samtho• 2 years ago

This does give AirBnB a reason enshrined in policy to take consistent action against misbehaving hosts, something that was lacking previously.

Also, I am not sure why you are conflating AirBnB’s authority with a local government - or course AirBnB won’t address the issues you cite in your last paragraphs as that is not their job and to think it should be is totally ridiculous. We have local and state governance to pass laws regulating behavior that is not good for society at large. AirBnB’s job is to generate value for shareholders all while operating within those bounds.

digging3• 2 years ago

Why wouldn't it be AirBNB's responsibility to prevent hosts from operating illegally?

scarface_7414• 2 years ago

You know what you could do?

1. Not allow Airbnbs in residential areas

2. Force each Airbnb host to list the address

You know, like hotels

zeroonetwothree5• 2 years ago

Hidden cameras aren’t as useful if the host can’t take any obvious action from it. So it does have an effect

kube-system11• 2 years ago

There are properties with openly visible cameras in the interior, which are typically pointed at reasonable locations to watch (like the front door), but being inside, they could potentially be listening to conversations that they don't really need to be. Those cameras should really be on the exterior of the property. This fixes that.

cowpig2• 2 years ago

Next they need to ban giving my personal info to 3rd party services.

It's becoming common now to upload guests' personal info into cloud property management systems, and set up things like wifi with services that offer a discount if you provide guest info. It's gross and when I complain about it to AirBnB they do nothing.

doomroot• 2 years ago

I've seen this before too. Clearly shady.

iLoveOncall• 2 years ago

I went to an Airbnb where the host had a ledger of all the previous guests that had stayed, with their personal information and their passport number. And it was left in the apartment for you to sign, so I had access to the passport number of literally hundreds of people from all over the world.

And it wasn't a mistake as the host asked you to sign the ledger when you arrived.

mschuster91• 2 years ago

In some countries, maintaining such a ledger is actually required by law.

Ekaros• 2 years ago

As usual with tech companies, you are also the product...

GJim2• 2 years ago

they need to ban giving my personal info to 3rd party services.

The GDPR makes this illegal.

In fact, unnecessary personal information is now a liability, not an asset. Thankfully.

xvector• 2 years ago

I almost forgot how annoying Airbnb is until I started staying in hotels again.

I will gladly take a smaller property in exchange for dealing with people that have actual hospitality training, daily room cleaning, room service, etc. Hotels are just a nicer experience. I don't want to spend my vacation cleaning the room or worrying about a "host."

vundercind3• 2 years ago

Airbnbs are amazing for:

- Group get-aways where the point is being together at the place, not seeing the sights of whatever area you’re in.

- Families traveling, especially when not staying in a city core

- Trial runs at living in a place

- Areas poorly served by decent hotels

They’re bad for lots of other scenarios.

[edit] oh and the less time you’re staying the worse they tend to be—stuff like cleaning fees and having to tidy up before leaving really suck if you only stayed for a night or two, but aren’t a big deal if you’re there for a week.

SideburnsOfDoom• 2 years ago

Group get-aways where the point is being together at the place

And how are the neighbours going to feel about your house party in their residential area? You can't call this model "amazing" for all concerned. Don't say that this doesn't happen, it really does. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39669347

bombcar6• 2 years ago

I've often felt a bunch of the "love" for AirBNB comes from people who didn't realize that you could do short-term rentals of entire properties before it hit the market (and where you'd go for those).

Workaccount2• 2 years ago

I have had all good experiences as an individual using them. It seems almost all abnb disaster stories stem from families or groups staying in a place. Even couples.

By biggest complaint though is that the cleaning fee is priced for groups and families. I'm paying $60 for someone to come and arrange the pillows at worst.

zeroonetwothree5• 2 years ago

Also great if you can’t live in your house for a short period (repairs, etc).

culopatin4• 2 years ago

The stress of staying with a group at an Airbnb is not Worth it anymore. One of our friends didn’t PERFECTLY follow the instructions of what to do with the sheets and just piled them all together in a corner for easy cleanup.

The cleaners used this as an excuse to scam the owner who lived 8hs away and saw the property every 6 months to tell them we had trashed the place and that they had to work 6hs. They took up close pictures of trash… (that was outside in the trash can btw) and claimed we just left it everywhere. Took an up close picture of a crumb on the floor. Am I supposed to vacuum the whole place?

If you’re a couple it’s easy to track everything and have a strong case. With friends you have to start questioning your friends to see if any of these claims are true. I don’t go in their rooms to check, so I have to take their word for it.

Very much not worth it. Not to mention the quasi legal battle with Airbnb that is a pandora box and for 6 weeks or more you are unsure of what’s going on, the host trashes yours and all your friends profiles, and they expect you to “pay for damages”.

All this because they estimate the minimum possible time for their cleaners and if they go over the 15min they booked (at a rate that is only matched by HP ink) they pass the charges to you.

Screw that. Never again. We’ve been staying at hotels with much better amenities for the money and actually REST. Checkout is at 10? I just leave. I don’t have to wake up at 7 to do dishes and bed sheets and trash and sweep and look for crumbs and take pictures to cover my ass later.

SoftTalker2• 2 years ago

I've found that hotels have cut back on the services also. I tend to stay at middle-tier hotels, i.e. Hampton Inn or something similar and they often don't service the room if you are there for multiple nights. I get not replacing towels if they are hanging up but even making up the beds and removing the trash isn't always done.

I'd guess that post-pandemic they just don't have enough staff to get all the rooms done so they prioritize rooms where there will be a new guest checking in.

callalex2• 2 years ago

I think there has also been a generational change in culture/expectations. Personally even if I’m staying at a nice place I don’t like having someone come into my room and rearrange stuff. I am a neat enough person that I don’t need someone’s help keeping a room usable after using it for only a day. I’d rather save that money.

ghaff22• 2 years ago

Well, like being "green" with respect to towels, it also just saves them money. (And, yes, couple that with labor shortages for a job that pays poorly.)

Honestly, it's fine. It's not like I wash my towels or my sheets daily at home. To the degree the pandemic was a forcing function to think about what labor people actually cared about, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

Symbiote3• 2 years ago

I've found the nicer middle (upper-middle?) hotels offer the same thing, but often give some reward — a voucher for a drink in the bar, snacks, etc.

I'm fine with it; I don't want someone remaking the bed so I have to loosen all the tight sheets before I use it.

It would also be very unusual for me to have enough trash that it needs emptying, or use enough toilet paper that it runs out, but I guess others might eat particular take-away food which could account for both...

culopatin4• 2 years ago

They’ll still come in and service whatever you need if you call the front desk though.

ryukoposting2• 2 years ago

Agreed. The Airbnb of today is a far cry from its early days. Back then, the annoyances of an Airbnb were tolerable because rates were competitive with hotels, and you got more space and a proper kitchen.

Nowadays, it really only makes sense if you're renting as a group. Small, affordable Airbnbs just don't exist anymore. Airbnb knows this - just look at their new ad campaign. Not sure if that was inevitable as the company scaled, or if they've just found that they can milk more money out of larger rentals.

All of this being said, Airbnb-esque services exist that offer small apartments at competitive rates. I stayed in one in Detroit for a few days, and it was pretty nice. I think it was called Mint Something. No cameras, either.

ghaff22• 2 years ago

I have stayed in AirBnBs once or twice as an individual and was happy with both the accommodations and the pricing relative to other options. That said, a lot of "the hotel experience just doesn't work" is mostly about groups or large families. As an individual or a couple I'll generally take the relative predictability of a hotel or a traditional B&B.

endisneigh• 2 years ago

In my experience Airbnb isn’t even cheaper, just has more “interesting” housing available.

Back to the topic - removing listings isn’t a sufficient enough punishment imho. And how would you even prove it from the guests side? Take a picture I suppose? But how do you stop bad actors?

Not sure what the correct solution is. Someone who wants to spy can purchase a spy camera which is very abundant these days.

bombcar6• 2 years ago

AirBNB "when it started" was quite likely to find you quirky and cheap options.

Now it's commoditized and a business, and the quirky and cheap options are few and far between.

Part of the degradation is both the company, the sellers, and the buyers - back in the very beginning it wasn't well known and most of the customers were well behaved - I'm not sure that's entirely the case now, as the customer base has grown.

casenmgreen2• 2 years ago

I'm a digital nomad.

One luggage, no permanent home, been fifteen years.

I used to use AirBnB all the time.

They gradually become more and more, well, "large company".

Governments gradually made AirBnB illegal or effectively illegal, largely or wholly killing off AirBnB in given cities, or countries.

For example, it used to be about impossible to get into Amsterdam, because of rent control and renting regulations; no supply of places to let. Then AirBnB came along, and everyone and their dog let places on AirBnB. You could get in, and at a good price. Then AirBnB was essentially banned, and now you can't get into Amsterdam.

It was always that there were a lot of people offering places who didn't know how to price what they had; so you'd see a lot of properties, but a lot were crazy money. Still, if there were enough, there would be enough places at sane prices you'd get somewhere.

These days, I still look at AirBnB, but I see that their fees have continually risen over time, and are now like 10% or 15%, and there's just no content. I was in Paris last couple of months. There was nothing viable on AirBnB, unless you wanted to pay several thousand a month. There was one what I concluded was a scam, a very dodgy letting agency, who had lots of apartments, all with no ratings, but very bad reviews on-line. I think they were continually deleting and remaking their lets on AirBnB, to get rid of negative reviews.

Finally, AirBnB itself, regarding "large company", became unreliable as a service, in that I never knew, when I came to us it, if log-in would still work.

I recall the first time log-in failed for no obvious reason, and the and the only option was "email support and we'll contact you in a few days" - and I was looking to move in about two weeks time.

After that, I put up my own HTTPS proxy, which I now use whenever I use AirBnB, to avoid AirBnB suspending my account for a few days, until support get back to me.

I also recall one episode about ten years ago where I had to phone support. It was a three hour long screaming nightmare of hell and madness.

So - fees are now rather high, support don't bother - anything but support - I had to backdoor my own net traffic to use the service, no viable apartments in most locations.

It was great, but now it's really not.

The one and critical thing AirBnB got right was building into their platform the expectation owners would offer discounts for stays over a week, or over a month.

I don't see this on other platforms, and it makes pricing on other platforms crazy. If I come and stay for three months, I expect a discount for giving full occupancy over that time. If you don't offer that, you're off the menu.

nytesky• 2 years ago

I mean this is the zeitgeist for AirBnb, the first word of the SNL sketch is BLAND.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5E5DkBXyfw

rchaud• 2 years ago

most of the customers were well behaved

...because back then they were dealing with a single homeowner, where there was a certain level of mutual respect.

Once "Airbnb host" became synonymous with party houses, cleaning fees and multi-unit short term rental empires, that changed.

ransom1538• 2 years ago

"In my experience Airbnb isn’t even cheaper, just has more “interesting” housing available."

I still, can not wrap my head around this. The idea behind airbnb was to rent out unused parts of your house. You STILL can not do this. Motel 6 is cheaper all day everyday. I will keep giving my $80 to Motel 6, but, I KNOW there is someone out there that has a room and needs $80. The original problem still exists. I can't pay $120 + $30 in cleaning fees, plus do your house chores Sarah.

smelendez• 2 years ago

My suspicion is those cheap single rooms were never worth it for the hosts once you consider the long tail of things that can go wrong.

One bad guest who upsets the other residents and leaves the property in bad condition will sap your earnings and throw off your life. Airbnb might eventually reimburse you for damage, but there’s still your time and aggravation.

Also any household maintenance issue, like an internet outage or finicky toilet or a microwave on the fritz becomes an emergency if it’s an amenity you promised to a guest. Even realizing the guest towels are getting a little worn might be a cause for panic. Motel 6 has a handyman on call, maybe the owner or a relative, and can take a room out of rotation if they’re not booked solid, but Joe Airbnb is stuck begging a plumber to come out on short notice or rushing to Target before check in time.

pjc50• 2 years ago

The idea behind airbnb was to rent out unused parts of your house.

Airbnb raised rents to to point where either people have no space or those spare rooms are filled with longish-term tenants, at lower void rates. Or their children had to move back in because all the inner city housing is now AirBnbs.

squokko3• 2 years ago

Is it so surprising that Motel 6 is more operationally efficient? That Sarah needs more money than Motel 6 to allow a unknown stranger into her living space and to clean up after them, rather than a gigantic hotel chain with decades of experience and thousands of locations?

konschubert• 2 years ago

This changes when travelling with kids.

hn_throwaway_996• 2 years ago

In my experience Airbnb isn’t even cheaper, just has more “interesting” housing available.

I think it depends. For relatively short stays of one or two people, a hotel is nearly always a better deal in my opinion (for short stays the cleaning fee alone can be a big percentage of the total price).

But for week or longer stays with a family or larger, they usually come out ahead given multiple bedrooms and the fact that the cleaning fee is amortized over more nights (not to mention access to a kitchen can save a ton of money). In this segment, though, they're really no different from VRBO or a host of other vacation rental providers that have been around for a long time.

ghaff22• 2 years ago

The whole house thing for a group is where I see Airbnb (or VRBO) etc. being a big win over most hotel options.

But for most singles or couples traveling, predictability and lack of issues is pretty much the priority. That's not to say I only stay in chain hotels--I've stayed in plenty of B&Bs and small inns--but I don't like rolling the dice on that aspect of my travel more than I need to.

zeroonetwothree5• 2 years ago

It’s much cheaper for larger spaces. If you want a 2 bedroom living space Airbnb is probably 3-4x less than a hotel.

jupp0r4• 2 years ago

It's not about the price. Hotel suites with multiple bedrooms are extremely hard to find or cater more to the super luxury segment.

jupp0r4• 2 years ago

Unless somebody is making serious efforts and running hidden data wires, spy cams are pretty easy to find by the average nerd equipped with a cheapish spectrum analyzer by their RF signature.

bmicraft• 2 years ago

Are they? Many are wifi connected, but record onto an sd card, which means they shouldn't be easily detectable, except when accessed, right?

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK3• 2 years ago

Airbnb has a normal fridge, a microwave, a washing machine, a dishwasher and 700-100 sq ft area. A similarly priced hotel room will have 250 sq ft area and none of the above amenities.

ghaff22• 2 years ago

Suite hotels have all that except maybe the washing machine and are often pretty comparable in price to "regular" hotel rooms. Those tend to be my preference although I use the refrigerator more than the rest of the kitchen.

scarface_7414• 2 years ago

I literally stayed in hotels from October 2022 - October 2023 permanently with my wife except for two months between January and February last year as we flew around the country. We generally stayed in Homewood Suites, Home2Suites, Embassy Suites and Hyatt Places.

Most Hyatt Places didn’t have washer and dryers onsite. We had to either Uber to take our clothes or use a wash and fold delivery service.

The rest of the places did.

The rooms are usually around 400 square feet.

Homewood Suites and Home2Suites have dishwashers and full refrigerators. Home2Suites you have to ask for a “burner”

al_borland2• 2 years ago

This all depends on the AirBnB. I stayed in one in Tokyo that had a kitchen and washing machine, but no TV. I had never stayed anywhere without a TV before (hotel or AirBnB), so I suppose it’s my fault for assuming it would have on. I was very disappointed, as I was planning to watch at least some Japanese TV in the evenings and instead just had to watch whatever was on my iPad. With a hotel, especially bigger chains, there are certain things a person can count on. With AirBnB I feel like I need to be a detective and keep a list of all my requirements, even ones I thought were default standards.

Also, at the Tokyo AirBnB, once I got there I found a sign in the bathroom that essentially told me AirBnB wasn’t allowed in the building, so if anyone asked who I was, I had to lie and give the prepared backstory. I’ve never had to lie to skirt the law/rules when staying at a hotel.

My next trip I’m staying in a hotel, and it has a kitchen as well (with a sink and range), so I can go to the store and prepare food if I want. It’s not 1,000sqft, but how much space do I really need for a couple weeks? My goal is to get out and do things, not stay inside the whole time. I’ve also had many hotels with a fridge and a microwave. The fridge might not be full size, but again, for a week or two, how much space does a person really need?

happymellon• 2 years ago

In my experience Airbnb isn’t even cheaper, just has more “interesting” housing available.

For me it has absolutely nothing to do with being cheaper, but simply hotels generally don't cater for families. I have an under 10, and either I go to bed by 9 because that's when they want to go to bed, or I make the stay up and we all have a really shitty time as they are too exhausted to enjoy it.

Two rooms with an adjoining door would work, but most hotels don't have this. AirBNB is simply the only option.

jvvw2• 2 years ago

Likewise. It's also really useful having some self-catering facilities with children and other self-catering options are often unavailable totally or only in week blocks outside Airbnb in many places. Plus the cost is often the same or less than two hotel rooms.

vidarh• 2 years ago

Convenience, for me. A flat is better than two rooms when travelling with my son and my girlfriend, for example. For families it has plenty of upsides in places where family rooms or suites are hard to come by.

mholt2• 2 years ago

I'm worried this ban will only affect honest hosts.

Anyway, what Airbnb should really ban is hosts charging a mandatory cleaning fee when also requiring their guests to do the cleaning.

We just stayed at one this weekend, and like almost all our previous bookings, the host asked us to:

- Take off all bedding and towels and start a load of laundry

- Do all the dishes and start the dishwasher (but required to hand-wash some items)

- Collect and take out all the trash to the curb

- Clean the grill/stove/oven

And we still had to pay a $200 cleaning fee when booking the place. A hotel would never require this of us or charge us extra.

ohnoitsahuman• 2 years ago

It's hard to gauge cleaning effort: if a guest uses every dish in the kitchen without doing a wash up, they cleaning crew could be there for hours.

But if a guest is tidy, then the cleaning fee should be nothing.

The hard part is that you need to reserve and pay for a cleaning crew as if it was always a disaster.

adra• 2 years ago

Any service that's so pedantic about cleaning isn't a service that most customers would want to use. Airbnb is trying to have it's cake and eat it too putting the responsibility on "hosts" to be the bad guys. It's just lazy and callous to not have strict bounds of responsibilities customers are expected to engage with.

alistairSH4• 2 years ago

you need to reserve and pay for a cleaning crew as if it was always a disaster.

Yet hotels manage this fine - it's just baked into the price.

I don't have a problem paying a cleaning fee. I just don't want to pay the fee AND be required to do 90% of the cleaning myself.

I'm happy to put the dishes in and then start the dishwasher. I'm not going to wait around for it to finish and then put them away. I'm happy to pile the used towels and bedding in a single spot, but I'm not going to do the laundry. I'll pick up any trash and wipe down the kitchen, but I'm not going to take out the trash or do a deep clean of the kitchen. Etc.

drawnwren• 2 years ago

It sounds like your two options are to either charge the max to all guests and the expense of less bookings or to take the loss on the extremely dirty outliers and expect it to be made up by the extremely tidy outliers.

throwaway290• 2 years ago

if a guest uses every dish in the kitchen without doing a wash up, they cleaning crew could be there for hours

If it is $200 then that should cover 10 man hours of cleaning in a developed country.

I had similar issues as a guest on Airbnb, paid a cleaning fee $100+ and then had complaints that I left food in the fridge (like normal a pack of milk or something not growing new lifeforms) and couch pillow on the floor. They sent photos to shove my nose into it. And it was a tiny studio not a big mansion with much area to cover

I quit Airbnb 2-3 years ago and am happy without

FireBeyond3• 2 years ago

I pay a housecleaning company come every two weeks. Two people, sometimes three, between 2 and 3 hours. $150. Or $200 if it's been longer.

I regularly see $300 cleaning fees.

And when I've had limited options and paid those cleaning fees, I think "I'd have fired my housecleaners if this was what I was getting for my money, every week, sometimes twice a week".

Let's be brutally honest - the hosts using professional cleaners are only paying for an hour or two. And oftentimes, I expect that their "cleaners" are the host's kids being handed a tub of sanitizing wipes.

sneak• 2 years ago

If you’re paying the cleaning fee anyway, why would you do any of that stuff?

bongodongobob• 2 years ago

Because they'll charge you for it and ding your rating.

loeg• 2 years ago

The hosts could leave you a bad review which can make it harder to book in the future.

mholt2• 2 years ago

Because hosts can leave bad reviews of guests. This happened to us once when we were new to Airbnb, we had that exact thought: "We paid a cleaning fee, we're pretty tidy anyway let's just let them do their job." But we got a bad review and now almost every place we book, I get a phone call asking about the bad review and I have to explain... "We paid a cleaning fee, we're already very tidy people, and we were stressed and rushed getting our family with young kids out the door on time. The mess they're complaining about was probably 5 minutes of sweeping, but now we are even more meticulous when checking out."

tgsovlerkhgsel• 2 years ago

Have you watched Black Mirror's "Nosedive"?

There is a rating system for guests, and losing "social credit" will make using the platform harder.

This implied threat makes people "behave", with both benefits (the worst actors will be filtered out and can't repeatedly impose the cost of their actions on society) and drawbacks (feeling pressured to always give 120%, fear of bad ratings, getting excluded through no fault of your own if you just get unlucky).

groggo2• 2 years ago

Most of those things are pretty common courtesy...

The cleaning fee is for deeper stuff like vacuuming, scrubbing the sink, toilets, etc... And yeah I think it also captures the one-time effort of the "turnover", where the host has to do the laundry, remake the beds, and a bunch of small things you might not notice.

I also hated it when the cleaning fee wasn't added until the end, which was very bait-and-switch-y. But as long as it's upfront it's ok.

It would be nice if more hosts just offered rooms though. If you don't think of it as a hotel, then it doesn't need that deep clean and doesn't need the cleaning fee. I just want a quick place to crash for a night sometimes...

Scoundreller11• 2 years ago

I’d say if it’s not mentioned in the ad up-front, you don’t have to do any of that.

I’ve found high cleaning fees to sometimes be an intentional discouragement to shorter bookings, but sometimes I’ve paid it because it was still the best option and I like that they maintained the option.

Sucks that the only way to push on fixed costs (it’s not just cleaning) is via the cleaning fee.

notyourwork3• 2 years ago

This! If I show up after checking in and get a message asking me to do a bunch of things, I'm going to give them a hard no and point to the booking.

culopatin4• 2 years ago

That’s how you get a bad review and charges for $800 to replace a napkin. Airbnb will side with the host, not you.

dcsommer• 2 years ago

AirBnB should tie the cleaning fee to your rating, perhaps a cleanliness dedicated rating.

UniverseHacker2• 2 years ago

At this point the cleaning fees are just a scam to make the listing fee seem artificially lower.

People did the same thing on eBay by making the items almost free but the shipping expensive, until they fixed the eBay interface, e.g. by letting you sort by price + shipping and showing shipping fees before you click.

tentacleuno• 2 years ago

No, they've worked around that too -- now sellers typically include a [completely unrelated] 0.99p item as an option in the listing, which then moves them to the top of the price-sorted view.

hn_throwaway_996• 2 years ago

Cleaning fees aren't a "scam" - most property owners really do need to pay someone to clean the property at the end of a stay.

But, as another commenter said, they can be used as a way to encourage longer stays, as with most places you only pay a single cleaning fee regardless of the length of your stay. But, again, it's just a fact that these rentals are usually just cleaned between guests (as opposed to a hotel when cleaning is done daily so it can be rolled into the nightly rate).

usaar3335• 2 years ago

Cleaning fees exist to charge a fixed fee for a reservation, regardless of the number of days. There's more overhead for a reservation beyond just "cleaning".

The most consumer friendly thing would be for AirBnB to just explicitly have a fixed "stay" fee and a per-day fee.

That said, AirBnB's site shows the total cost for a stay when browsing, so I don't really see this as particularly deceptive. I don't care how the host itemizes the bill as long as I know what I'm paying when selecting a place.

Scoundreller11• 2 years ago

People did the same thing on eBay by making the items almost free but the shipping expensive, until they fixed the eBay interface

There’s a longer story to this: eBay used to exempt shipping fees from its commissions.

So sellers would be screwing eBay and, being an efficient market, as it often is on eBay, the savings would be passed onto the buyer.

I’d sell games for 1 cent with $10 shipping (cost to me: ~$2) and put the shipping cost in the title for clarity. If you didn’t like it, fine, pay more to buy from someone else.

Now they charge it on the whole purchase, which sucks when they take a ~15% commission on sales taxes and shipping and sellers can’t easily tack on a premium to these. So they get lower net proceeds when selling to someone that has high sales taxes or shipping fees.

This really discourages sellers from shipping internationally where those costs are higher.

Now that eBay charges percentage fees for “promoting” your item and getting visibility, bulk sellers will often post the exact same item, unpromoted, for less if you can be bothered to go through their “other items for sale”.

Have seen some wild examples where a seller sold one item at very different prices. They must have had items with 50% promotion fees, 25%, 5% and 0% (evidently passed onto the customer through different pricing) to capture the whole market.

biomcgary• 2 years ago

Airbnb is a marketplace with a much wider range of "products" than standard hotels. I have found stays that fit my needs far better than any hotel ever could. I am both a host on Airbnb and frequent guest.

Airbnb's UI needs to guide prospective guests toward specifying what they are looking for so that prices (and price sorting) actually meets their expectations. If you search for a specific date range with # of guests, pets, etc., the sort order needs to be on all-in costs, not daily cost. Maybe they could offer pre-baked "personas" - e.g., I am looking for a hotel alternative vs I am looking for a unique experience.

ModernMech• 2 years ago

And those were a twist on the old infomercial trick: Get a second one absolutely free! (just pay a "small" shipping and handling fee that is as much as a second one)

pjerem• 2 years ago

eBay could have fixed this a long time ago. Most marketplaces (at least in my country) manage the shipping transparently (by taking the shipping fee and providing a pre paid label to the seller).

Idk in the US but I know nobody who still use eBay for anything, I don’t know how they are still alive.

mellutussa• 2 years ago

This is why I can't use AliExpress. Ordering by price+shipping is truly an awful experience. The people in charge of that feature take incompetence to a new level.

Perepiska• 2 years ago

I remember a wave of $1 iPhone charging cables on Amazon! (with expensive delivery cost :)

xnx• 2 years ago

I'm not a fan of how AirBnB has displayed pricing in the past, but don't lose sight of how bad hotel pricing is: taxes and fees not displayed until the checkout page, "resort" fees added at any time, etc.

There are no good guys here.

BeFlatXIII• 2 years ago

This is also how airlines work these days. Separate airfare from fees and baggage, then trick travelers with low sticker prices.

standardUser2• 2 years ago

I've stayed at dozens of AirBnBs and I've never had an onerous list of chores or a noticeably high cleaning fee, so these complaints always baffle me a little. Are people reading the listing thoroughly? Are they choosing a place with lots of ratings and reading all of the reviews? I've definitely had some bad AirBnbs over the years despite my careful selection process, but my complains are usually about noise or a lack of supplies (extra towels and blankets for example).

jamiek882• 2 years ago

I literally lived in airbnbs for three years traveling across the whole of the contiguous United States and never once had this either. I did have them ask to put the trash can outside at some of them and most want you to remove your food from the fridge / freezer but that is about it.

Just checked my account, we stayed at 167 places in the last 5 years.

hklgny• 2 years ago

I used to feel the same way, but over the past few months have started experiencing it quite a bit. I think it started in more touristy areas I didn't tend to go to, and now is spreading all over the platform.

It's a terrible experience. last 2 trips I've gone on I've ended up in hotels because all of the airbnb's had cleaning fees close to the nightly rate and an actual chore list for check out.

no thanks.

drdaeman2• 2 years ago

Same here. 16 stays so far (most long-term, 1+ months), so not much, but all with zero issues. Hosts usually ask to do the most basic stuff - check that everything is closed and turned off, sometimes take the trash out, and possibly collect the used towels and drop them in the bathroom. Stuff I'd do anyway without being asked.

I remember having a request to run a washing machine once - and sure thing I did. It's just a push of a button, not like I'm doing laundry by hand, and if a couple minutes of my time (that otherwise would be spent circling around the place and quadruple-checking if I packed everything I've brought with me) saves someone half an hour then I'm happy for a quick and meaningful distraction. As for the dishes and kitchen utensils - some hosts ask, some don't, but I wouldn't leave them dirty either way, that's just common sense and basic respect to the property.

Don't remember seeing any outrageous cleaning fees - although I haven't really bothered to check the fee structure, all I care about is the grand total and whenever it fits my budget - the rest is simply irrelevant to me. Airbnb used to suck about not showing the total amount right away (which led to this cleaning fee fiasco), but I believe it's long fixed.

Then, I typically spend about a week's worth of evenings carefully going over the listings, multiple times. Airbnb's search is mostly a joke, one can only find a decent place by setting only the most basic filters then methodically going through the listings checking if they're accurate, have a decent number of photos (listing descriptions are useless, have to actually see the kitchen, shower and "dedicated workspace"), favorable reviews, no obvious red flags, checking surroundings on the maps and so on.

Either way, for the long-term stays a good Airbnb house or apartment beats a hotel (YMMV). And ever for the shorter-term (1-2 week) stays I always checked the hotels and always ended up picking an Airbnb because it was a more attractive option.

kube-system11• 2 years ago

Honestly I think those requirements are perfectly reasonable for the originally intended purpose of the site, which is people renting out their personal homes. I have stayed in several Airbnbs that had the owner's clothes in the closet and pictures of their kids on the wall, and in those situations, it just seems rude to leave dirty dishes in the sink. These places aren't hotels.

I agree that doing laundry is a bit onerous in clearly dedicated rentals, but in my experience those tend to have fewer requirements and tend to not care if you miss a couple steps unless you trash the place.

notyourwork3• 2 years ago

Those types of Airbnb's are long gone, now its entirely commercial.

jupp0r4• 2 years ago

That's all fine. The $200 cleaning fee on top of that isn't. The $200 cleaning crew will do the dishes no problem.

statguy• 2 years ago

You knew this when making the booking? Why didn’t you book a hotel instead? Airbnb or the host have no incentive to change if people like you keep going back. They will change only when it starts to hurt their bottom line.

Cheer2171• 2 years ago

You knew this when making the booking?

You know about the cleaning fees at booking, but not necessarily the "rules" about cleaning.

lukan4• 2 years ago

"I'm worried this ban will only affect honest hosts."

EMF meters(like in the airplane to spot mobiles) are quite cheap and if you find an active one, you can probably sue the host, but at least reporting should have some effect, even though no instaban.

"If a guest reports the presence of an indoor camera after that, Airbnb says it will investigate and that it could remove the host’s listing or account as a result."

I do think that many hosts are scared of loosing the income, so they will comply.

noodlesUK• 2 years ago

like in the airplane to spot mobiles

What are you referring to here?

autoexec3• 2 years ago

EMF meters(like in the airplane to spot mobiles) are quite cheap and if you find an active one, you can probably sue the host

In a house with a bunch of smart meters/appliances, bluetooth devices, a router, indoor electrical wiring, nearby power lines, cell signals, AM/FM radio, etc wouldn't the house be constantly flooded with EMF radiation pretty much everywhere?

mrgoldenbrown3• 2 years ago

You can avoid those listings if you want. You are only responsible for the tasks they specify up front in the listing under "rules". If they didn't list it up front, before you book, you don't have to do it. If they try to spring some tasks on you upon arrival, that's their problem.

ezfe• 2 years ago

I always refuse to do everything except load and start dishwashers, if I filled it, take the trash out. I have 15 reviews, ALL positive.

nradov• 2 years ago

Why would customers even put up with this type of abuse? I don't get it. Just stay somewhere else. If I'm staying with a friend or relative for free then I'm happy to pitch in with household chores, but if I'm paying then screw that. I honestly can't understand why anyone would use AirBnB when there are so many better options available.

deadbabe2• 2 years ago

AirBnB is the only decent affordable option for a large group of people who want to stay together. Other than that, I see no point.

deadbabe2• 2 years ago

One hack you can do is tell the host you have a disability and will not be able to carry out those tasks.

wdb• 2 years ago

Yeah these days it is cheaper to rent a spot at apartment hotel.

Might pay $75/night for it but to need to do any cleaning

VeejayRampay• 2 years ago

go to a hotel then, they have paid cleaning staff to take care of that stuff for you

booleandilemma• 2 years ago

A $200 cleaning fee is more expensive than a night at many Manhattan hotels. Actual hotels. With full service. Is airbnb even worth it?

tensor2• 2 years ago

Not for a night no. It's more of a replacement to renting a service apartment for longer periods of time (e.g. a week or more).

archagon4• 2 years ago

FWIW, the last hotel I stayed at in Manhattan was $300 a day and had no service. And this was a big name hotel too, not some budget option.

scosman• 2 years ago

Re: will only affect honest hosts

It still probably helps reduce surveillance a fair bit:

- honest host who currently disclosed cameras will stop

- dishonest hosts who are worried about getting caught will stop (most aren’t tech savvy enough to hide cameras, catching them isn’t hard, and they don’t want to risk getting kicked off platform)

- really dishonest hosts who hide cameras will get kicked off platform if caught (and potential civil/criminal cases)

Not perfect but a good move and should help.

chgs4• 2 years ago

A host can’t complain about you breaking the camera if they didn’t say there’s one there.

cctv cameras in non public places and with no oversight (including video doorbells etc) are a cancer on society

Salgat2• 2 years ago

There is no situation where cameras are acceptable in another person's living space, so whether this only affects honest hosts is irrelevant; as long as it reduces usage, it is a good thing. Imagine hotels arguing for allowing cameras in their suites because they are "honest".

lazyasciiart3• 2 years ago

I believe the argument is that dishonest hotels will simply say "Yep, we got rid of cameras too!" without actually doing so.

rolph• 2 years ago

imagine a hotel charging you because when you obstruct the camera with some object, your video [profile data] couldnt be provided to a data broker

lucisferre2• 2 years ago

They should ban any hosts that require guests to do cleaning to be honest.

matsemann10• 2 years ago

Why? Lots of people would rather do a little themselves to get the price down. Why should your preference dictate how everyone does it?

And it varies from market to market what's the norm. For instance for cabins in Norway, the norm for a long time was that the renter brought their own bedding and cleaned everything, mopped the floor etc before leaving. Long before airbnb was a thing.

Should an American company decide that this Norwegian way of doing it is no longer ok..?

mx_03• 2 years ago

Next time book a hotel then.

The only way things will change is if all of use refuse to keep giving them our money.

swatcoder3• 2 years ago

Your family was asked to do about 17 minutes of convenient, easy preparatory tidying that most considerate people would do even without being asked (as in a hotel or when visiting a friend).

Yet you benefited from coming into a home that, presumably, had all of its floors vaccuumed, its kitchen and bathroom surfaces sanititized, its linens folded and/or readied, etc. Whether it was the host or a service, somebody followed up behind you and likely spent at least several hours preparing the place for the next guest. And instead of it being bundled into your daily room rate like in a hotel, since it's only being done once per stay, it was applied as a per-stay cleaning fee. That's eminently fair.

There are about a thousand of things to complain loundly about with AirBnB and countless things in life more broadly -- being asked to tidy up a little bit or to pay a per-stay fee to cover cleaning? Not really a compelling one.

noslenwerdna• 2 years ago

I think the point is it should be part of the upfront cost when searching, rather than something that shows up at the end.

linehedonist• 2 years ago

You empty the trash from your hotel room? Really?

sourcecodeplz• 2 years ago

Vacuum, mop the floors, scrub the toiles and sinks, clean the dust / hairs. Of course there is a cleaning fee.

tensor2• 2 years ago

I've also noticed that now some hosts are able to use external services and require a security deposit not managed through airbnb. Supposedly these are only via "airbnb approved platforms," but I still don't like it as there is no real oversight.

For example, I found one that wanted almost $1000 as a deposit, and had a whole bunch of rules by which they would charge you extra. Not cleaning dishes, or not well enough would ding you $12 per item! Not putting the keys back in the lockbox on time would be $28/h. There was even a db meter that supposedly didn't record audio. The issue is where is the line? What do they consider clean a dish "well enough"? What is the db limit? Can I see the meter?

I just avoided it as it sounded too irritating to deal with and with the deposit outside of airbnb there is no room for argument.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK3• 2 years ago

That's even worse with Booking (half of their listings are now Airbnb-like rentals). After I paid the full non-refundable amount, I was requested to send an extra deposit, pass video-based verification, holding a passport next to my face, explain the purpose of my travel etc.

EasyMark5• 2 years ago

I just move on when I see requirements like that. Some of those I do as a matter of course (clean any food mess/dishes if I have a kitchen). I think my mom beat that one into me. I'm definitely not doing laundry with a house cleaning fee is tacked on. Probably why I stay at hotels 95% of the time.

dangus• 2 years ago

I don’t understand why this is a worry. There’s no such thing as an in-room security camera in a hotel. Airbnb should have had a clear ban on indoor security cameras a long time ago.

You might as well say that “laws only apply to law-abiding people.” That’s not a reason to not have laws.

klinquist16• 2 years ago

I'm a host. I charge a $200 cleaning fee and my cleaners charge me $250, so I lose money on cleaning.

I ask guests to:

* Strip the beds (otherwise, I find that people re-make beds and it's hard to tell if they have been slept in), * Load and start the dishwasher (the dishwasher takes 4 hrs, and the cleaners travel to my remote house, and I want to make sure they can finish in about that time) * Take the trash down to the garage (to avoid ants)

I pay a neighborhood kid to take the trash bins from the garage to the street on trash day.

I successfully manage my place remotely (3hrs away) via a good cleaner and home automation (detailed here: https://www.linquist.com/airbnb/automation). 4.99 stars, superhost.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK3• 2 years ago

As you spelled out your reasons, it makes sense. But usually, you don't go over reasons with guests, and they feel like the host is treating them as his poor relatives doing chores. It's totally different at a hotel, where guests feel like they're being served.

moralestapia2• 2 years ago

Tbh, those are problems that you have to solve, somehow.

lotsofpulp5• 2 years ago

(otherwise, I find that people re-make beds and it's hard to tell if they have been slept in),

That is why any half decent hotel has protocol to always change all the linens anytime someone rents a room.

MissTake13• 2 years ago

I find that abhorrent myself.

What YOU pay for your cleaners is up to you.

Stop nickel and dimming your customers - if you charge a cleaning fee then there's zero moral rights in my mind that you have to ask customers to also clean.

Just up the nightly rates and build it in.

When's the last time you stayed at a Hotel and found you got hit with a 'Room Cleaning" fee?

What's next - a fee for allowing Heating to be used? A fee to allow water? Heavens above.

scarface_7414• 2 years ago

Why wouldn’t you clean the sheets regardless after each stay?

But everything else seems reasonable. If a host left a note explaining the reasoning behind the dishwasher and the trash, I would understand completely.

MissTake13• 2 years ago

“ I ask guests to: * Strip the beds”

“ But an unreasonable task is like strip the bed…”

Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky, 2022

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/airbnb-ceo-guests-shouldnt-ha...

madaxe_again2• 2 years ago

I’m a host, two properties in the U.K. I charge no cleaning fee. I don’t ask guests to do anything other than lock the door behind them when they leave.

It’s really simple to manage - price it in.

Our nightly rate is our nightly rate is our nightly rate. We have a two night minimum on our city property, so it doesn’t end up astronomical - and when we have single nights spare we open them up at a higher price point. On the other property, we have a one week minimum, as it’s in the countryside, larger, and cleaning costs more.

We also price in stuff like welcome champagne, tea, coffee, cooking supplies, firewood, you name it - we give our guests everything they would have at home, and enough to throw together a meal on their first evening if they get in late.

Our margin is >50% on both.

Price it in.

barbazoo3• 2 years ago

No come on, some of those are crazy, no one is expected to clean the oven after normal use.

I've seen this lots but I've never actually done any of the things they ask me to. Bringing out the garbage? Sure, but only if it's overflowing while I'm there. I will start the dishwasher. We've also never received a bad review so I think at least where we stayed, while those things are explained in their handbook or wherever there's no downside to just not doing them.

moralestapia2• 2 years ago

Why do you have to do all that, though?

SergeAx• 2 years ago

What will they do if you refuse?

jvvw2• 2 years ago

Is this partly about norms I'm different countries?

If I were renting a holiday cottage in the UK (airbnb or otherwise), I'd expect to do the washing up and take our rubbish, and possibly strip the beds. I wouldn't expect to clean ovens or put laundry on.

Staying in Finland recently we had to make our beds at the start - no idea if that is normal there but wouldn't expect that in the UK unless you were at a youth hostel.

I assuming the cleaning feel covers mopping, hoovering, cleaning bathrooms, making up beds with fresh laundry. Some places do feel like they overcharge nonetheless for the number of hours required and I presume that it is more an overhead person stay charged to discourage short stays.

legendofbrando• 2 years ago

Don’t do the cleaning and leave a medium review that politely says you were not informed of cleaning policy beforehand. Host has no way to penalize you (outside of a bad review) and you can respond to their review (if they criticize you) saying you were not informed at booking. Keep your review and response cordial and any future host evaluating you will assume that the past host was weird. There’s no way anyone can verify the claim by the other host that they articulated the cleaning policies.

rdtsc2• 2 years ago

Hosts can’t use outdoor cams to keep tabs on indoor spaces

That might be easy to game either way. Hosts can claim they didn’t keep tabs, just had a hunch to come over and check; and guests can claim the camera in the yard could see some part of the interior through a window and ask for a refund.

One interesting effect is that now hosts with hidden cameras can't offer the footage as proof during disputes.

pi-e-sigma• 2 years ago

Sure they can. They simply 'forget' that there was a camera there but when a dispute comes up then they suddenly realize that actually there was one and surprisingly there is relevant footage, too.

rdtsc2• 2 years ago

That might work once but then they'll have to be more creative. And, of course, it would depend on the consequences of breaking the "no camera" rule. If they can show the guest smashing an expensive TV or something, it might be worth the consequences.

notatoad• 2 years ago

Airbnb did previously allow indoor cameras?!

kube-system11• 2 years ago

Yes, I stayed in one that had one in the entryway pointed at the interior of the front door. Very uncommon in my experience, but this was in someone's home that they actively lived in, but were away for the weekend, so I found it to be understandable.

GJim2• 2 years ago

I found it to be understandable

I'm astounded you found it understandable.

If I'm renting rooms, I certainly don't expect the landlord to be in the business of filming myself or family, especially as we may well be walking around sans clothing. Not only is this rather illegal, I suggest plenty of people would find themselves responding to the landlord rather violently in such a situation. And I would not blame them.

jmuguy• 2 years ago

Yes - but you had to disclose it very prominently in the listing.

veunes• 2 years ago

Yes, cameras were allowed to be installed, but host are required to notify about it. As I was explained, this allows, for example, placing one outside the entrance door, to know how many people actually were living there, because there are cases when people deceive. And the price depends on the number of people as I know

65• 2 years ago

Not sure how AirBnB has a $100 billion market cap. The use case for an AirBnB, which is mostly large group travel, seems limited when comparing to the use case for a hotel (every other type of travel). Marriott and Hyatt combined have a lower market cap than AirBnB.

s1artibartfast6• 2 years ago

Airbnb has a PE of 22 and is a money printing machine. Airbnb makes 10x the profit of Hyatt, which has a PE of 75.

Use case of hotels might be bigger, but it is a highly contended market. Airbnb has a huge chunk of a smaller market.

Also, the margins are much better on hosting a website than building hotels and paying thousands of service employees.

whompyjaw• 2 years ago

What is PE?

claudiulodro• 2 years ago

On the flip side, Hyatt has billions of dollars of equity in real estate (which appreciates in value while not technically generating a profit), while AirBnB has an online marketplace. Presumably that's part of the PE difference.

Havoc• 2 years ago

Amazing that this even needs to be stated

jimt1234• 2 years ago

Exactly. I always thought there was a presumption of privacy when renting any residential space, long or short term, and that presumption was legally binding. And I just assumed that interior cameras violated that. For example, I've read about creepy landlords installing cameras in their rental units, mostly to spy on their female tenants. The creepy landlords always got arrested. Furthermore, if a large hotel chain like Hyatt or Hilton was found to install cameras inside hotel rooms, people would not tolerate it, because, just like an apartment, there's that presumption of privacy inside a hotel room. But for some reason, AirBNB was like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, "Owners can do whatever they want. Not our problem."

mcculley• 2 years ago

I feel like a grumpy old guy every time I read about AirbedAndBreakfast, because that is how it was initially pitched on this site. If people would just keep thinking of it as a way to get an airbed and sleep on someone’s floor, they would have appropriate expectations.

I’ve never used the service, because I prefer real beds cleaned as required by the local health department.

kube-system11• 2 years ago

Buried in the sea of vacation-style rentals filled with thrift-store decor, there are still a few gems on the site that follow the spirit of that initial pitch. While they don't usually have actual airbeds, they're often cleaner than even a nice hotel, because nobody cares about a property more than an owner-occupant.

happytiger• 2 years ago

I’m stunned people still use AirBNB after most hosts turned their high paying customers into unpaid housekeepers.

jjulius• 2 years ago

Because maybe that hasn't been the case for the people still using it? It certainly hasn't for me, and I've seen other comments in this very thread saying as much[1].

[1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39669973

barbazoo3• 2 years ago

Hasn't been a problem for me. I apply common sense and do the absolute minimum, usually starting the dishwasher. They can ask me to do whatever they want but it has no teeth. I've never seen one of our hosts complain in a review either.

FireBeyond3• 2 years ago

Which also shows you how little oversight they have - I guarantee that there are a sizeable number of places that are not inspected after each stay, let alone clean.

campl3r• 2 years ago

Before HN I hadn't even heard of any such things (as a European), and I stayed in 3 Airbnb's last month alone.

autoexec3• 2 years ago

The change comes after numerous reports of guests finding hidden cameras within their rental, leading some vacation-goers to scan their rooms for cameras.

Checking for cameras seems like a smart move no matter what their policy is. You just never know.

bonton892• 2 years ago

How do you reliably find cameras?

digging3• 2 years ago

There are numerous techniques needed to search but, crucially, nothing can guarantee you've found them all.

I'm struggling to find it, but I read an article a few months ago where a team placed about 30 cameras hidden in a home and tried to find them all. Most methods found low single digits. Even the best ("an advanced lens detector" for $400) brought the total up to fewer than 20.

Really wish I could find that because now all I'm finding is dogshit articles claiming it's easy.

edit: found, it was from CNBC. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/22/how-to-find-a-hidden-camera-...

You can also check what devices are connected to the wifi but there's no guarantee they don't have a second network just for the cameras which you can't access.

lotsoweiners3• 2 years ago

Hack out all of the drywall.

jmbwell• 2 years ago

One more rule written in blood. How much abuse has it taken to reach this point? Incalculable.

This is how you do it. Come in as a "disruptor," ignore all the rules the establishment has already learned the hard way, and make shitloads of money for as long as you can without pesky old oversight or constraints.

Eventually, you wind up with the same rules the establishment had, if not more. Your catalog gets clogged with cottage enterprises that game your algorithms to steal your customer equity. While you're neck-deep in customer complaints and bad press, you're reduced to a clearinghouse for someone else's business -- little more than a classified ad service. You lose, your customers lose, and -- unless, god forbid, they get organized -- your original suppliers lose. Everyone loses except the scalpers and the scammers. Except now you've run out the competition, and consumers have little other choice.

In this example, why use AirBnB when all you get is either a Sonder that is more hassle and no better than a hotel, one of a dozen apartments leased by the same weirdo, a retirement-home-in-waiting in a bland suburb, or a sketchy individual's greasy rathole?

In the end, welcome to niche status. You do actually have a unique product (in this case, places for big groups to stay for several days), but the market for that isn't big enough for perpetual "growth," so you're on track to be acquired by a hedge fund, rolled together with your former competitors, soaked with debt, and then put out to pasture. But your founders are long gone, booking corporate speaking engagements between yacht voyages. Some "vice president" decides your labor pool stays cheapest if you disincentivize things like career development. Eventually everything is parceled out altogether. What's left of the value of your brand gets smeared over commodities. "Welcome to AirBnB, powered by Motel 6 (an SV Capital Partners, LLC experience)."

ddasdassds• 2 years ago

I'd put this under "enshitification".

I've had plenty of complaints in the past about terrible airbnb hosts, but this seems to me to be clearly motivated to bring more money into AirBNB at the expense of the hosts and neighbors. Just like Paypal made conscious decisions to ignore customer fraud and hold sellers liable for everything, now AirBNB is trying to squeeze more out of the hosts by supporting and enabling bad behavior by guests, removing options for hosts to control or respond to terrible customers. I stopped using AirBNB several years ago, but then I noticed that hotels have copied AirBNB's shitty policies, like the price doubling on the last page due to unexpected fees. They're enshitifying the whole hospitality industry.

NegativeK• 2 years ago

Hosts, like hotels, can simply document before and after if they're concerned about damages.

Disallowing potential spying on guests and requiring disclosure just sounds sane. Nobody should be monitored without their knowledge.

sschueller• 2 years ago

I find it sad how Airbnb has taken a market that worked (in many places) and re introduced all the problems that have been resolved through decades of regulations being put in place for hotels etc.

Chances of finding a camera in a hotel room are near zero while at Airbnb you have no idea what kind of pervert the renter is. At this point prices for Airbnb have rissen so high why not get a hotel?

It's like we don't learn at all from history or just like to forget so we can make an extra buck.

ilrwbwrkhv• 2 years ago

Most people these days get a hotel anyways.

Also I only took a airbnb once in my life.

Anybody who takes airbnbs regularly has for sure slept on somebody else's dried body fluids.

matsemann10• 2 years ago

I'd wager the chance is higher in a hotel.

Source: worked at a hotel.

pas• 2 years ago

Well, maybe. Hotels are big (so they definitely capture a big chunk of the tourists), but in big dense cities building hotels is a lot harder than spinning up apartments for booking/airbnb.

And. I guess I'm not alone in preferring apartments. (And nowadays with lockboxes and WhatsApp-savvy rentors/lessors the lack of a reception desk is not a problem.)

mlrtime3• 2 years ago

Sounds like an ad from the Hotel lobby.

People should still be able to rent out their homes if they want.

al_borland2• 2 years ago

This sounds like a lot of tech companies that look to shake up an old industry. They say they’re starting from first principles and try to reinvent every wheel. It usually ends up meaning pain for the customers as they rediscover why the old players in the industry do things the way they do them, and then act like they discovered something new.

npteljes• 2 years ago

I feel like this is a trend, and it comes in cycles. People do business directly, end up fucking each other over, regulation is desired. Such regulation is moat, it benefits larger players, so business concentrates. While this enables things like standards, it also becomes soulless and expensive, and people began to feel that business needs to be more direct. So, with technology, a new alternative is unlocked, people deal with each other again, discover the same outcomes. A case of history repeating itself, well, at least if you look from far enough.

Same happened with crypto, I feel, vs banks and stocks. The latter is regulated and saturated, and crypto is a wild west. So every scam is new again.

mancerayder2• 2 years ago

find it sad how Airbnb has taken a market that worked

Houses and apartments come with kitchens and back yards and balconies. Even in 2024, hotel rooms are miniscule and that stupid fridge is, at worst filled with 20 dollar boxes of cookies and liquor samples, and at best too small to fit a large bottle of water in.

I've grown to dislike Airbnb as a customer, but what you said is one-sided, and dismisses the disruption of the hotel model in a digital nomad age.

ghaff22• 2 years ago

Houses and apartments come with a very mixed bag of amenities. You can research to a certain degree but...

I've actually be thinking about Airbnb for a fairly extended stay at one point. On the one hand, it seems like the right solution. On the other hand, it's a big commitment for essentially an unknown quantity.

chgs4• 2 years ago

I was amazed at the type of motel I stayed in back in 2008 when I went to Canada. Kitchens and balconies or decks. Pretty much unknown in the U.K.

Of course I’d had plenty of experience of self catered accommodation on holiday - sometimes purpose built but mostly normal cottages that were simply rented out.

Airbnb and similar systems just reduced the friction of finding and transacting self catered accommodation, and the increasing trend for city breaks delivered a growing market.

hashtag-til• 2 years ago

This reminded me that AirBNB is a crap service. I wanted to delete my account but never got around to do so.

So I did it now!

spacecadet2• 2 years ago

Signed on just to say, like that Figma post garbage quickly moving off the main page... Forget AirBnB- These businesses lacked justification to begin with and followed the selfish whims of their boards. Abandon these paid dog food products and go out and build/support open replacements for them.

spacecadet2• 2 years ago

Who ever down voted this is clearly a capitalist scumbag.

jgalt212• 2 years ago

Pablum. Near impossible to enforce.

WestCoastJustin• 2 years ago

Imagine for a second, that you checkin at a Marriott/Hilton/Fairmont and there was a camera in your hotel room. It's amazing it even lasted this long with airbnb.

thimkerbell• 2 years ago

Are they also banning the host practice of renting out multiple rooms to guests who are strangers to each other? I would prefer indoor cameras as protection from other guests.

AlecSchueler• 2 years ago

Definitely always scan your rooms. I volunteer with helping women who were filmed involuntarily for sexual purposes and the level of voyeuristic content from AirBnb hosts has been skyrocketing.

toss1• 2 years ago

Good to see that they are also thinking at least one step ahead:

> Hosts can’t use outdoor cams to keep tabs on indoor spaces, either, nor can they use them in “certain outdoor areas where there’s a great expectation of privacy,” such as an outdoor shower or sauna.

There are certainly hosts who would instantly put a camera in the tree looking in the windows.

They'll still do it, but they can't use the pictures without incriminating themselves.

The arms race continues, but slightly better for guests.

exabrial• 2 years ago

How about we just ban Airbnb and solve part of the housing crisis while we're at it?

Airbnb is banning indoor security cameras

Related Stories