Giving a Shit as a Service (2022)

https://allenpike.com/2022/giving-a-shit

by damir • 3 years ago

494 261 3 years ago

I used to puzzle over why potential clients who reached out to me always seemed to get more interested in hiring us if I tried to dissuade them by asking challenging questions. I think the biggest reason is that pushing back demonstrated that I care.

This seems bizarre. I work in sales, and I avoid making things too challenging for potential clients. Pushing back on the scope is one thing, but I think the way to show that you care about a potential client is to listen, identify their issue, and provide them with a solution that meets their budget. So many sales people try to push the envelope, to maximize the sale, for better or for worse, but I've never done that.

petesergeant• 3 years ago

I work in sales

What are you selling? I imagine that would make a difference

underseacables3• 3 years ago

Networking equipment, but also a network monitoring service.

pasc1878• 3 years ago

Surely challenging means that you show that you are listening to the client and shows you understand.

How does a client tell the difference between what you do and a salesman overpromises both of these salesmen listened and said that they could do it. Many people have experience of the bad salesperson and so will assume that they are all like that.

travisjungroth2• 3 years ago

Asking challenging questions isn’t the same as making things challenging. I had the same experience as the author. It’s not about asking questions that take up their time or are hard for the hell of it. It’s about asking questions that show you’re not only planning on making the sale, but on doing the work. If you’re selling a product, it’s the questions that show you want to make sure the product is successful for them. They’re challenging in the sense there’s a slight tone of “are you sure you really need this?” in them, and they often don’t have top-of-mind answers.

saargrin• 3 years ago

theres a line between giving a shit and not giving a shit eh

sgarland2• 3 years ago

There is probably a lot of bias with these two companies - one is a bespoke software company , and the other a bespoke woodcraft company. At a glance, the software company produces native apps for iOS and Android, rather than React Native, which to me seems indicative of attention to detail.

People with that mindset tend to want it in others, and will believe it to be the cause of successful relationships. I say this as someone with precisely the same belief. I’ve no idea if it’s causal, correlated, or simply a coincidence that my brain sees as a pattern, but for the moment I’m convinced it’s at the very least correlated.

Simon_ORourke• 3 years ago

People with that mindset tend to want it in others

Totally agree, but folks like that will run into the "it won't scale" types and get frustrated with their corner cutting ways for the sake of future scaling opportunities.

sgarland2• 3 years ago

Or worse, they run into people who have neither belief and are just yeeting shit into prod because it works well enough.

Then all three sides fight and nothing gets done.

contrarian12342• 3 years ago

Aren't native Java apps on Android effectively deprecated? I feel last I looked Google just pushed Flutter/Dart. I was thinking to try to get a Clojure application ported to Android (it uses a lot of Java libs under the hood) and .. I got the impression nobody uses Java anymore!

Though, to start with, it was bit unclear if Clojure still doesn't run on ART/Dalvik/whateveritscallednow

Permik• 3 years ago

Nah, It's ART still underneath so anything that compiles to JVM will compile to ART, so Java is never dying.

On the Flutter side, it's just another cross platform toolkit like React Native, but a la Google, and won't/can't replace the years and years of Java development.

But the current and foreseeable future Kotlin will be the Java successor because of its JVM/Java compatibility, ecosystem and ease of use. For a while some of the new committed code in Android has been Kotlin.

flutas• 3 years ago

Java and Kotlin are still the vast majority of apps, and what's being pushed the hardest in the industry.

Kotlin especially with Jetpack Compose for UI.

jimkleiber• 3 years ago

Previously discussed here as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32071349

Also maybe add 2022 to the title.

dang• 3 years ago

Thanks! Macroexpanded:

Giving a shit as a service - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32071349 - July 2022 (152 comments)

foobarbecue2• 3 years ago

Was it because the furniture makers were experts? No.

Weren't they?

Weird line.

arrow7000• 3 years ago

They were indeed experts but that wasn't a sufficient reason for it to be such a smooth experience

didibus• 3 years ago

For table making it might have been?

foobarbecue2• 3 years ago

I mean... if the point he's making is that expertise doesn't affect the quality of the product or experience then he's very wrong.

vivekd2• 3 years ago

I guess it's good for small businesses trying to distinguish themselves. But it seems like giving a shit doesn't really scale.

It seems like at some point in growth all companies attract a critical number who don't really care. Maybe it's just hard for people to care when the numbers are big. Maybe that caring is hard to maintain as things get more institutionalized

ano-ther• 3 years ago

If you are careful, then GAS can certainly scale.

Examples:

- Microsoft commitment for Windows to be backward compatible or their care about Excel (including using their own compiler, 1-2-3 compatibility in early years etc). Doesn’t means that there aren’t also examples of the clearly not-GAS.

- Hospitality industry which trains their staff and makes extensive use of checklists and SOPs. Disney comes to mind or high-end hotels.

- Most services in Japan, where it scales culturally

gavinhoward10• 3 years ago

Maybe you are right. I certainly haven't seen anything to contradict you.

So this is the exact reason that my software business will only grow to the point that it provides enough for my wife and me.

Why are people so obsessed with growth? They're like the businessman/tourist in [1], and I just want to be the fisherman.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekdote_zur_Senkung_der_Arb...

fullspectrumdev• 3 years ago

I’ve noticed companies tend to sacrifice giving a shit for an increase in perceived growth that often is not sustainable over the long term.

There’s honestly probably a lengthy blog post in this.

Especially in the sector of managed/professional services or SaaS - companies try to scale up fast to have more customer acquisition (focus on net new), and tend to sacrifice the level of bespoke service that retains customers, leading to increased churn over time.

This approach usually means that ARR will increase over the short term (3-5y), which is totally fine, but unless your service is really sticky or you gain market dominance, the growth curve will eventually plateau and enter a decline.

You also see this outside of tech - in the service industry in general. Company expands rapidly, service deteriorates over time, eventually enters a decline phase.

Maintaining quality of service is hard over the long term to balance with growth, you really gotta put the work in.

hn_version_00232• 3 years ago

It seems like at some point in growth all companies attract a critical number who don't really care.

Yes. Once a company is a clear contender in a space the ghouls start to show up. They’re there for the easy win. With growth comes the need for more hands and the People who Give a Shit always end up covering for those that don’t.

RugnirViking2• 3 years ago

companies attract a critical number who don't really care

I think most people have the capacity in them to care. Working at a place you don't care about is utterly miserable and draining in the long run, its not something someone does by choice. People usually end up doing it when they are isolated from the effect of their work. Either not hearing at all whether anyone used or cared about your work, or worse hearing that work was arbritrary/pointless.

For example manager stressing about deadlines, you all work hard to meet them, then all of a sudden it turns out your work isnt being used and is just sitting around. What was the deadline for? why did this happen? does anyone apologise, or even feel the need to explain?

In general being isolated from the effect of your work also had a strong negative correlation with happiness in my experience. Hard to be happy when you feel like a cog in a machine that wouldn't care if you dissapeared.

I guess this sort of situation is inherently more likely as team sizes grow and the number of steps in communication channels rises.

Many times i've observed a team full of people who give a shit breed people that don't, as the company grew and many of them ended up as managers who failed to delegate effectively, and by overworking themselves on the important and meaningful tasks (because they gave a shit) they neglected their reports with menial and meaningless/arbritrary tasks and no feedback (who became morose and could not give a shit if they tried)

tickerticker• 3 years ago

"Hard for ppl to care when the numbers are too big"...... this sounds like a good defense for SBF. He needs one.

pfix• 3 years ago

Not negating the sentiment that giving a shit helps, but table making is an old business and most of the challenges have been encountered over the centuries. So result and cost comes down to having an experienced craftsman. And I assume that someone making a living from it for let's say the 10,000 hours can make a table any way you want and be pretty accurate in estimating effort and material expense.

Giving a shit makes for a more happy customer, but cutting a board oval shaped is what they do in a workshop for breakfast.

okwhateverdude2• 3 years ago

Giving a shit makes for a more happy customer, but cutting a board oval shaped is what they do in a workshop for breakfast.

Maybe. It could also be that the majority of their customers only want boring non-oval shit most of the time. So the chance to flex a bit on a "non-standard" order and getting to actually demonstrate those skills leads to a much better outcome for everyone including the craftspeople.

vivekd2• 3 years ago

You would think so, but I work in construction and I can confirm that finding a skilled builder is just as hard as finding a skilled coder. Probably more so because coders seem more intent on lifelong learning whereas construction types tend to act like they already know everything.

Just look at the top comment, works in construction, electricity is over 100 years old, still had trouble finding people who care.

Part of the challenge is that practicing construction is expensive so not everyone gets a chance to do so. Practicing code is easy and inexpensive. There's an accessibility to it that isn't there for building. I code stuff that doesn't work all the time and I don't care, I just start over because I didn't lose much. It's very different when dealing with expensive construction materials.

shell_game• 3 years ago

“it depends on X and Y” and “here are things you should care about” is the most annoying thing ever IF you actually need to make a decision and IF the service provider doesn’t give you a path forward. It’s fine if you’re just gathering information, but not when there is a business impact to delaying.

This goes for people in a consulting capacity in internal roles, too. There are way too many “SMEs” who will show up to your meetings, tell you it’s “complicated”, and then leave, thinking they’ve made a contribution. If you raise issues but don’t help your customer navigate this complexity, you are adding negative value.

dudul• 3 years ago

Came here to say this. I think if as a customer you have some understanding of what you're trying to do, sure working with the folks who "give a shit" will be great. If you just want to get it done and don't have a clue about the details it feels like friction.

ProllyInfamous18• 3 years ago

I always carry a two dollar bill and fifty-cent piece, for when (e.g.) an entry-level store-clerk does something which most-other-clerks wouldn't resolve, I can say to them "Thank you for giving. a . shit."

As a blue-collar electrician (although retired), I want to hire anybody that seems to give even the tiniest shit. While working, it took me a decade to realize that "if you're the only person that 'gives a shit,' YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A BAD TIME."

nonrandomstring3• 3 years ago

it took me a decade to realize that "if you're the only person that 'gives a shit,' YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A BAD TIME."

Oh my goodness. That perfectly describes my last 5 years in academia. The last person on the deck of a sinking ship, directing panicking souls, after everyone smart and agile already jumped in the lifeboats.

But I don't regret it. I helped a lot of kids into lifeboats, and even found a nice lump of driftwood for myself as the university system gave one final creaking groan then plunged into the darkness.

ProllyInfamous18• 3 years ago

My favorite former client [we're both retire now] is approaching 90 years old. Wow. She is a distinguished portrait artist from The Silent Generation, and she recently told me [upon her own best friend's recent death]:

"Nobody wants to be the last one left at the party. You have to help clean up, then..."

We ended our professional relationship over petty words when I felt like the only person giving a shit about maintaining her assets [as her maintenance guy]. Our personal relationship has outlasted any pettiness; but it still hurts seeing her squander her massive inheritance without maintenance.

SturgeonsLaw• 3 years ago

Maybe the implication wooshed right over me, but what was the role of the note and the coin?

zogrodea• 3 years ago

I believe it’s a way to reward the person for going above and beyond of what is expected of them, and for caring enough to do a good job.

derrikcurran• 3 years ago

In the US, $2 bills and 50 cent coins are uncommon so it feels more special when you get them.

spacecadet2• 3 years ago

1000%, Ive left teams and jobs over people "not giving a shit". One of the quickest path to burn out.

drzaiusx114• 3 years ago

Likewise, and have been burned enough times that I can _usually_ recognize the patterns within my first few weeks at an org (assuming they were clever enough to "hide" the institutional level problems during the interview process.)

A sample of my "Giving a shit" checklist includes: Do they not utilize metrics or care when they tank? Do the rank and file engineers have a general malase and use terms like "not my problem" with impunity? Does management continually deprioritize critical "keep the lights on" work eg security patches WHEN they are fully aware of the repercussions (this knowing is key.) List of red flags goes on.

No org is perfect, but why endure the pain when it can be avoided. Especially so when it can easily be recognized early enough in many cases.

rubslopes• 3 years ago

I thought you were talking about Jony Ive for a second.

chiefalchemist• 3 years ago

Ditto. Kinda. Most ppl do give a shit. The disconnect comes from what they give a shit about. For example:

Head of agency only gives a shit about billable hours, not sustainable revenue.

CTO gives a shit about shiny new tech objects, not how appropriate they are for the news of the client.

Manager gives a shit about over-committing and shipping gawd-awful soltions, and not the integrity and esteem of the team.

Team members give a shit about not making waves, and bad processes and lack of growth (i.e., learning new things) persist.

Designer gives a shit about the aesthetics of the design, not about how it's going to compromise the UX.

And so on.

I've left more than one job because I'm not wired to be complicit (in someone else self-destructive shit giving), and because I give a shit about clients and users, as well as being able to look at myself in the mirror.

drzaiusx114• 3 years ago

Personally, a large part of my job is telling folks _why_ they should give a shit; providing data on how not giving a shit will affect them or their company's bottom line. If they don't listen and it hits the fan anyways, they may have learned something and give a little more of a shit going forward. If they don't, I move on. Those that don't learn from their mistakes will continually supply the fan with further shit to spray.

In general, people largely filter out the "caring" of what won't directly affect them personally or their tribe in the short term, blind to the longer term repercussions until they are pointed out with concrete details AND actionable options. Someone doing the "right things" for the current situation, either has foresight or prior knowledge. Those that aren't, either have neither, can't learn, or the options' positive net ffects do not outweigh the momentum of "doing nothing."

ProllyInfamous18• 3 years ago

a large part of my job is telling folks _why_ they should give a shit

Some sort of "change management consulting" or something?

----

I'm looking for some sort of intellectual career which will allow me to capitalize on my inherent "glass half empty" perspectives. I used to do residential home inspections [as primary income, post IBEW], but during recent no-inspections home-buying... my services were required less-and-less.

I have enough runway to last about a decade unemcumbered... but got tired of feeling like the only guy on jobsites that cared about not delivering _turds_ to well-paying customers.

squarefoot• 3 years ago

"if you're the only person that 'gives a shit,' YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A BAD TIME."

Not only that (which is 100% true) but also you're raising the bar in required work quality for everyone else to get on par with you, therefore expect to make a few friends and many enemies, especially among colleagues.

ProllyInfamous18• 3 years ago

expect to make a few friends and many enemies

The older I get, the less I'm willing to help disaster scenarios.

"A lack of planning on your behalf, does not constitute an emergency upon mine."

j454• 3 years ago

The “don’t work too hard” crowd when you might be working harder than them and “must be nice” when you are relaxing more than them can both be avoided.

People who don’t like anyone working more than them or enjoying life more than them are usually haters who are busy not doing much themselves.

Raising the bar doesn’t mean having to make it more work for everyone.

Those doubt worshipping and self-sabotaging enemies aren’t worth having in your life but it is nice to give a bit of shit about them too.

Move at your pace to wearers what you want and you will find like minded people.

lr4444lr• 3 years ago

You've inspired me to start doing this. (Don't think I'll carry around that exact denomination, but the point is, giving a $%^& is a really good thing to financially incentivize.)

ProllyInfamous18• 3 years ago

Ordering "a thousand dollars in two dollar bills, please" is a baller move that, at my local credit union, only costs $1000.00USD.

And then you get to walk out [usually a few days later] with five straps of Jeffersons, feeling like a baller...

This lasts me about one year of "appreciation" for others' "giving a shit"s.

matheusmoreira3• 3 years ago

While working, it took me a decade to realize that "if you're the only person that 'gives a shit,' YOU'RE GONNA HAVE A BAD TIME."

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. When I was a teenager trying to decide what to do with my life, I dropped professional programming because every developer I knew at the time just didn't give a shit. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right decision. Recently someone posted an article here about disenchantment in the software industry, after reading it and the comments the feelings of doubt quickly went away.

tangjurine• 3 years ago

Do you remember which article? Would like to read it.

vjk800• 3 years ago

Unix (/ˈjuːnɪks/, YOO-niks; trademarked as UNIX) is a family of multitasking, multi-user computer operating systems that derive from the original AT&T Unix

Yes. This is why people stop giving a shit.

I think new people, fresh out of school, mostly give a shit, but slowly figure out that their lives are a lot easier if they don't.

deanCommie• 3 years ago

Depending on which state this is in, this tip is equivalent to between 10-20mins of their paid work.

Maybe this is reductive of me, and certainly any $ amount is better than zero $, but I sort of feel like by putting a financial value on your compliment you are devaluing it.

A super heartfelt "Thank you for giving a shit. You truly made my day and inspired me to have faith in humanity. I know your job is hard and noone expects you to go the extra mile, and I genuinely appreciate that you did" in your own words would be meaningful.

A financial tip of significance (e.g. 20$ - several HOURS of worth) would also be meaningful.

That 2-dollar bills and fifty-cent pieces are rare is going to interesting to some, but I think to most the only thing they'll perceive is that you valued their extra mile at $2.50. I don't think that's what you're intending, so I thought I'd offer that alternative perspective.

xyzelement• 3 years ago

It’s the same on every level. Past some entry bar, the difference between employees, spouses, etc that are happy and succeed vs miserable and fail is that attitude.

NarcisMirandes2• 3 years ago

I am from a small country in Europe. When I first read the article I was confused. A clarification for people who do not have English as a first language: "give a shit" about something, it means they care deeply or are genuinely interested in that particular thing.

So, in essence, "giving a shit" in this context means being highly dedicated, passionate, and attentive to the details, which often leads to a better outcome and a more satisfying experience for the customer

qwertox• 3 years ago

It was because they gave a shit.

I did stop reading there. I was 100% convinced that this meant that they couldn't care less about what they were doing, yet their homepage seemed to indicate that they'd give a lot of dedication to detail.

In German "drauf scheißen" (to shit on something) means to not care at all about a given thing.

nmstoker• 3 years ago

You are misreading how this phrase is used! It means they do care.

If they didn't give a shit that would mean they didn't care and this is the opposite.

sambeau7• 3 years ago

It's not surprising. English has a load of this weirdness. We can, especially in American English, shit on something (normally an idea or plan for some reason) with the same meaning. "I don't mean to shit on your idea out of hand, but…" No doubt it's a direct import from the German.

lioeters• 3 years ago

The phrase exists in English too, "to shit on something". It means to talk bad about something, to criticize, to make it (or someone) look bad.

I think "shit" in English is one of the most linguistically flexible words, used in various ways, from very positive ("It's the shit!") to negative ("It's shit") meanings.

As another commenter said, the positive meaning of "shit" often seems to be the result of reversing a common phrase. "I don't give a shit" means I don't care at all, not even a shit; and later the opposite phrase started to be used, "I give a shit" to mean I do care about it.

It's one of many confusing and illogical things about English.

bratwurst30003• 3 years ago

I think “shit” here is synonymous for “a little” or “something”. At least I give you anythin.

But honestly shit and fuck can fill any English sentence.

threethumbs• 3 years ago

Giving a shit means you care. Taking a shit....

sambeau7• 3 years ago

It's one of those interesting phrases that, I believe, came about from its opposite. "I could not give a shit about that," literally, "I wouldn't even pay one shit to buy that," or similar (no doubt with some mixing up with non-english words), has gradually added people who would give a shit — which only makes sense if they are giving a "shit-ton" of money for it. Showing your enthusiasm for something by handing over a turd is a strange way to show your gratitude. :)

sambeau7• 3 years ago

Here's an interesting discussion on Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/etymology/comments/2rgl7i/how_did_i...

Further down is the suggestion that "give" in the phrase, means "care". Which it does, in part, but as the way language goes, so many words and phrases have double meanings that merge to make one subtle meaning.

"I couldn't give a toss," is a common variant. As is, "I couldn't give a flying fuck." But neither has the positive version in the same way — you don't normally give a toss about something specific, and a flying fuck is never positive. But, interestingly, you can give a toss in general.

English, as you have realised, has layers of weirdness and subtle traps.

notahacker• 3 years ago

One that amuses me is how the popular "I couldn't care less" (I really really don't care) got converted by people who couldn't care less about syntax and meaning into "I could care less"

That and "literally" being so frequently abused it now has a dictionary entry to explain that it can also be used to emphatically refer to non literal stuff.

If you think showing enthusiasm for stuff by handing over a turd is weird, you'd also love the (nineties) British habit of complimenting something by saying it's "the dogs bollocks", as if canine testes were renowned for their desirability...

rfrey• 3 years ago

This one isn't exactly the opposite though, in the same way that "could care less" is literally the opposite of what is meant. Bring the only one who would give a shot implies nobody else there meets even that incredibly low bar.

mzi• 3 years ago

A finn doing a standup comedy skit about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igh9iO5BxBo

sambeau7• 3 years ago

It's absolutely perfect.

Thanks for posting this. I'd seen it before and was looking for it recently, so it's now safely bookmarked.

alluro2• 3 years ago

I didn't even need to open the link - Ismo is the shit :)

I can also highly recommend the one about eating and children in Africa - my favorite :)

NarcisMirandes2• 3 years ago

Great! I feel identified with his problems with the language. Where is he from?

count• 3 years ago

Fantastic - it's like he's channeling George Carlin!

ChrisMarshallNY2• 3 years ago

Love that.

Reminds me of Rob Schneider's "Dude" bit (He's not usually my fave, but this was fairly good): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfI4cjGiJGE

arrowsmith3• 3 years ago

This is why I try to avoid idioms, figures of speech and uncommon words when I'm writing something aimed at software engineers, such tutorials or technical documentation. Most coders aren't native English speakers, and I want my writing as clear as possible.

Because I give a shit.

ProllyInfamous18• 3 years ago

My last W2/work performance review indicated that "ProllyInfamous swears too much in normal interactions." Upon the customary raise and pleasantries, the obvious-acusor sat with arms-folded (upset). Finally she brought up her written words, in public.

I responded with one of my favorite [passive aggressive] formal responses: "From now on I won't 'give a shit,' anymore. Instead, I'll start 'giving a hoot'."

----

English is weird. The language of exceptions [similar to chemistry].

gavinhoward10• 3 years ago

Thank you for giving me an alternative! I've been searching for one.

I hate it when the best version of a phrase has a swear word; I don't blame you for using it.

nonrandomstring3• 3 years ago

Douglas Adams had a nice turn on giving "a rancid dingo's kidney". Similar variations I've heard include a "monkey's left testicle" and so on. But they're negative imagery, whereas you can't beat "giving a shit" for expressing positive enthusiasm.

ralferoo5• 3 years ago

Interesting. In the UK (or at least where I grew up), we wouldn't "not give a hoot", we would "not care a hoot".

bratwurst30003• 3 years ago

Haha german here. I was confused for a second too. I just woke up and wasn’t that awake.

xtiansimon• 3 years ago

I like reading posts like this, because I’m always hopeful I might learn about other $#!t phrases, such as, “You ain’t shit.” What TF does that even mean? /rant

ralferoo5• 3 years ago

"You're actually quite good."

skeeter20202• 3 years ago

I'm most certainly not a prude, but I worked for a company that had literal "Gives a shit" as a core value, and DID live it, but I always found it a little vulgar to say in unknown company, and you've also reinforced it doesn't translate globally. I swear a lot in private circles but would never say "shit" in a public forum; I guess I'm not "edgy"

robertlagrant• 3 years ago

It does feel a little like a kid who still thinks it's cool and novel to swear.

nextlevelwizard• 3 years ago

It is not even being highly desirable or passionated - just caring. I work daily with people who sling code just for a paycheck, they do not give a shit, just as long as they get paid the end product can be whatever and that really pisses me off

blauditore• 3 years ago

The autor deliberately used it to gain more attention with because of the title. It annoys me, not because of the bad language (I do the same), but because of the clickbaitiness.

idontwantthis• 3 years ago

It doesn’t mean highly dedicated. It means “caring the smallest amount possible which is more than 0”.

Most business interactions are with people who literally do not care at all. Will not consider alternatives, will not give advice, will not tell you you are being silly.

In that context, anything better than that is a big deal. You sometimes encounter people who care a lot, but you don’t usually get to compare them with someone who cares only a little. You still get to compare them with the rest who “give zero shits”.

m0rissette• 3 years ago

Absolutely.

gavinhoward10• 3 years ago

Yes, absolutely.

I'm starting a business, and this is my real product.

Most everybody will see my FOSS code as my product, but that's my loss leader.

My real product, the stuff people will actually pay for, is doing stuff such as responding to bug reports like [1].

In other words, my product is caring about your needs and meeting them.

On the flip side, I want customers who care too. I think one reason those furniture people did so well is because they had a customer who cared, and it was refreshing.

When you do something day in and day out, you either become careless, or obsessed.

As a customer, you want to seek out the latter, but as a vendor, when you are the latter, getting a customer who cares is not just refreshing, it's enormously fun!

[1] https://github.com/gavinhoward/bc/issues/66

actionfromafar• 3 years ago

To be clear, do you have paying bc customers? I guess not, but I wanted to absolutely sure! :-)

gavinhoward10• 3 years ago

No, absolutely not!

bc is my gift to the world. It will remain that way.

I'm writing other software, upon which my business will be based.

You could say bc is how I advertise my services. :)

kahnclusions• 3 years ago

Then he wouldn’t be giving a shit, he’d be selling some shit.

darkwater• 3 years ago

You are a wonderful person, Gavin!

gavinhoward10• 3 years ago

Thank you for the compliment and encouragement! I've been feeling down lately, and it's helped.

mtlynch2• 3 years ago

My real product, the stuff people will actually pay for, is doing stuff such as responding to bug reports like [1].

But that's not something anyone has paid you for, so it's actually a counterexample.

Boasting about your clever business strategy when you have no paying customers is like boasting about your excellent fishing technique when you've never visited a body of water.

gavinhoward10• 3 years ago

I mean, I could have qualified it with "the stuff I hope people pay me for," but eh.

And you're kinda wrong; I've been paid for bc, kind of.

I've been paid by people adopting it, an obscure alternative to an obscure command-line tool that nobody uses.

And yet, my bc is in FreeBSD and Mac OSX.

Perhaps the reason I'm confident is because this little thing of mine managed to replace entrenched competitors in a few places. Why can't I do it again?

hinkley• 3 years ago

“People don’t buy a product, they buy a story.”

For most companies most of the time, this is true.

BOOTRACER• 3 years ago

Girlfriend As A Service pays better

RA2lover• 3 years ago

I wonder how someone could create a jig to plot such a table for arbitrary exponents.

okwhateverdude2• 3 years ago

The furniture people probably also had the same question and were excited to figure it out.

maroonblazer• 3 years ago

At least for me, 'giving a shit' (GaS) is not a static feature. I have great respect for people who GaS and they inspire me to want to GaS too. Most days I take pride in my work and so try very hard to GaS. However there are days when my workload has exceeded my capacity and the priority is simply to get things 'out the door', in which case the degree to which I can GaS begins to vary.

bratwurst30003• 3 years ago

“Giving a shit” I love the American language because of things like this.

“Fucking shit” Sex with poop.

Bukowski and the Cohen brothers made those words art

rob• 3 years ago

Was it because they charged a lot of money? No.

I'm sure that plays into it, yes.

In most cases, the more money you give the more they will "give a shit."

marban• 3 years ago

Welcome to Japan.

photochemsyn• 3 years ago

It comes down to incentives. If you're the owner of a small business that relies on a good reputation and repeat customers, you're going to care about quality of service because it directly impacts your bottom line.

As companies grow, they might choose to hire employees and managers who are paid flat wages regardless of whether the company does a lot of business or a little. If the employees work hard and the business flourishes, but they see no reward of any kind, this fosters resentment and they stop caring about quality of service.

Intelligent business owners recognize this reality and offer incentives that reward employees if business is good - e.g. commissions on sales in the retail world, stock options in the startup world, wage increases in the manufacturing sector, etc. Greedy shortsighted owners ignore this dynamic, so their employees are incentivized to do the least amount of work possible, just enough to avoid being fired.

Where things get really bad is when monopolization grows and markets end up controlled by very few players, so customers have nowhere else to turn to (Comcast etc.).

ChrisMarshallNY2• 3 years ago

I remember this article from here, a while back.

I enjoy it, but am keenly aware that "giving a shit" often gets severely punished, these days.

schmichael2• 3 years ago

The Forks episode of The Bear is one of my favorite stories on giving a shit: a fork polisher at a fancy restaurant learns you don’t work in food service because you love polishing forks. You do it because you want to bring people joy and polishing the forks is one of many steps to that end. You can find purpose in fork polishing through both excellence and empathy for your customers. There’s a lot of days the code I write is about as exciting as fork polishing, but you do it for your teammates and users.

SergeAx• 3 years ago

2022, discussed then (120+ comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32071349

btbuildem• 3 years ago

The corollary here is that giving a shit doesn't scale.

The furniture makers that inspired this article can afford to give a shit because 1) they're expert at what they do and 2) they charge a lot of money.

These are constraints on both ends: on the supply of labour and on the demand for it. This is also why most people can't afford to give a shit -- they're not good enough to charge enough for that rare commodity.

schmichael2• 3 years ago

I don’t think that is necessarily true.

Sure it may be “easier” to give a shit when you’re an artisan charging a premium for your craft.

However you can still give a shit if you’re a designer for IKEA. You can take joy knowing the more you minimize price while maximizing durability you not only bring joy to the majority of people who can’t afford hand crafted tables, but your efficiency can have major waste and ecological ramifications that an artisan shop can’t hope to copy.

What you give a shit might change, but giving a shit absolutely scales.

willi59549879• 3 years ago

why is everybody so obsessed with scale? the good things in live don't scale, like relationships. the dream of scaling everything to a 1 billion business is just greed talking. caring about a craft and building relationships will be more fulfilling than a billion in the bank

teaearlgraycold2• 3 years ago

Exactly. Once you have met your needs why the fuck are you trying to get more money? You’ve maxed out on money, you fool! Work on another dimension of life!

travisjungroth2• 3 years ago

Not everyone is obsessed with scale, but news.ycombinator.com biases that way.

hn_version_00232• 3 years ago

I’ve read this sentiment in the thread multiple times, but it just feels backwards to me.

At scale you can afford to not give a shit. I don’t think you get to scale by not giving a shit, do you?

But once you’re there? Well the money is just rolling in and well you can’t care about everything, can you? So you let some stuff slip and before you realize it you’re halfway down a slippery slope, claiming giving a shit doesn’t scale and forgetting in your panicked slide that it was your choice to stop giving a shit in the first place.

anonu• 3 years ago

I glanced over the title and for a moment I thought this was going to be an article about the SaaS-ification of sites like https://www.shitexpress.com/

hardkorebob• 3 years ago

Indeed as a Hospitality pro with 25+ yrs of expertise, seeing someone be present in a heart for excellence is rare. Excellent service is an art.

snmx999• 3 years ago

In my experience caring too much is often perceived as a negative, especially if the other party does not care that much but just wants to get the job done. Asking questions and god forbid, pushing back just makes you a difficult person.

cryptoegorophy• 3 years ago

How do you motivate your employees to give a shit. Even with good salary.

wizerdrobe• 3 years ago

Stepping beyond the obvious, pay them a good wage.

Filter at the door, look for people who give a shit, have a passion for the work, etc. Hire them, look to avoid people who got into it simply because it’s a fat paycheck. I wouldn’t confuse this with “I spend all day everyday in my off time coding,” but seek out people who have a reasonable articulable love for a tool, a language, or something and or can articulate why they don’t like a thing. I have opinions on, say, Java over NodeJS and can speak at length with passion about why I feel the way I do.

Understand and manage them as human beings. I’ve been hired on to companies that experienced radical change within the first days, weeks, and months of accepting the job. I’ve walked into jobs such that what I interviewed for literally did not exist when I started on Day 1. I’ve worked at companies that have had serious pivots around product-market-fit such that the job I accepted radically changed, i.e. from Full-Stack SE to AWS DevOps. Those companies just offered no honest conversation or explanation around circumstances, just managers magically started assigning random tickets one day. Coincidentally, I hated those jobs and couldn’t have given less of a shit if they succeeded or failed. I’m not a cog, a fungible unit, or a human-resource. I’m a human, full-stop. The firms I’ve worked with that suffered turmoil but offered me the basic human decency of a conversation, however, earned loyalty out of me and enabled me to continue giving a shit.

RugnirViking2• 3 years ago

When people understand the wider context their work falls under they naturally give a shit. People want to give a shit, it feels good to have meaningful work and do it well. They only stop giving a shit when given a reason to do so (usually because they are heaped with meaningless work and have no connection to whether the work is good or bad). That doesn't (just) mean "incentives", it literally means them simply being told "great job, no problems reported from the client" or even more preferably the client themselves telling them that. The more steps between them and the effect of their work, and the less feedback, the less possible it is to give a shit even if they try. Trying to game or make this process as low effort or box-check-y as possible is noticable and counterproductive, it needs to come from a genuine involvement.

People involved in meetings tend to care more. Not "involved" as in invited to, involved as in people want to hear their opinion and care what they think. The trope of people hating/not listening in meetings comes from it literally not mattering whether they are in the room or not. I get that you might not initially care what <newhire> has to say, they're hardly bringing insights, but the best onboardings ive seen are those where seniors want to hear their experience, what they struggled with, and work with them to make it easier for them and future newhires. It's noticable how much harder people work shortly after seeing their feedback/work being put to use.

Another thing ive observed a lot is its common for people who give a shit to get promoted to lead others, but by taking on a lot of the meaningful work themselves, overworking, and failing to delegate, they breed people under them that dont give a shit, due to leaving only meaningless tasks and having no time for feedback or informing their reports what is even going on.

Finally, once someone has fallen into the habit of not giving a shit at a specific company, unfortunately it requires a mighty effort to bring them back again. It's usually possible with time, but much harder than just keeping them happy in the first place.

I guess give a shit about people and you may well find they give a shit themselves

xyst• 3 years ago

GaSaaS would be a great product for a large majority of Fortune 500. Oh wait that already exists, it’s called “consulting firms”. And they are useless most of the time.

Unfortunately for this to work, ALL parties need to “give a shit”. Sure this might work for a small “boutique” firm working with another small “boutique”. But at the end of the day, big firms are probably farming the work down to a low level employee or contractor (think VP -> Executive VP of Acquisitions -> Managing Director -> Director -> Manager -> Lead Project Manager -> Project Manager -> some person working with project manager) with a set of requirements.

Initially it was to be completed in 4 weeks. But in order to impress their boss, one or more of these people kept reducing the deadline and suddenly it’s a project that’s wanted to be completed over the weekend.

Low level person doesn’t give a shit. As long as it meets min spec, it’s Gucci. The further questions asked by the 5th vendor will probably get ignored.

Upon completion, everyone is “happy” it’s delivered before their anticipated deadline.

Except upon delivery the product is “half assed”. Nobody is really happy but they keep their mouth shut and accept it anyways so they can pump their numbers.

WendyTheWillow• 3 years ago

Consulting firms aren’t useless, they’re just not useful in the straightforward way one would presume their value would manifest.

They’re great catalysts for change, they’re fantastic scapegoats, etc.

nativeit• 3 years ago

This has been the model for my largely solo IT consultancy for the last several years. I offer ultimate accountability, I take ownership of every project, and I demonstrate fierce loyalty to my clients and their interests. It’s not the easiest way to make money, but I am proud of everything I do, I hardly ever lose a client, and when I do it’s generally without any bad blood or acrimony.

tornato7• 3 years ago

I'm currently looking for a good IT consultant after going through a few bad ones that for lack of better words didn't give a shit. Want to chat?

reubenswartz• 3 years ago

I didn't realize how rare (and precious) a commodity giving a shit is. I expected it to be the default state, but it's not. I remember calling a customer to apologize for a bug and having them console me with something like, "all my apps have bugs and irritations, but you're the only one who seems to care enough to call me and fix it promptly."

m463• 3 years ago

I wonder if it can be "a commodity "at all. Do you think it's possible to give a shit in volume?

neilv• 3 years ago

If you email 4 software studios for a quote and 3 say “Sure, here’s a quote” but the 4th says “Hm, we certainly could build it but we can’t be sure about cost without knowing X and Y, and here are some other concerns we’d have” then the 4th is going to seem like they give a shit.

I usually end up responding like that, having started to think about the problem and approach. But I just know what the takehome message will be for some.

Now it'll be someone's CRM startup feature: responds to RFQs with an LLM prompted to give the appearance of thoughtful consideration of the problem. Because, one time, a blogger said you should ask questions like that, to make a better impression, was the takehome message they got.

Or it'll become a mnemonic for remembering the mix of kinds of questions on an RFQ you should ask, for the sake of appearances, and you'll fail an interview for not hitting each letter of the mnemonic exactly once, and in order. ("Sorry, bro, I was really hoping you'd pass, but you forgot the R in SCROT. You're not Amazoogle caliber yet, but take some more interview prep classes, and you can try again in a year.")

klabb3• 3 years ago

Yes, there’s a constant arms race between the authentic and the impersonators. Happens in every field. Look at how much the “artisanal” and “rustic” aesthetic became completely colonized over the 2010s to the point of being “the new bland” today. That’s also why I liked this article. It doesn’t propose an excessively precise definition of “giving a shit”. It requires paying attention and being vigilant – the impersonators are always around the corner, watching and learning.

teaearlgraycold2• 3 years ago

This is the same as the old metrics-as-targets failure mode. Or the stock market - as soon as something is public knowledge it’s already priced in.

matheusmoreira3• 3 years ago

People praise professionals who give a shit but nobody seems to value them. When you care, it is soul destroying to watch people who don't give the slightest shit make metric fucking tons more money than you. It's sociopathic and it's extremely common.

When I was a teenager I actually quit professional programming as a career because I felt that I would be miserable in this field. I felt that way because every single developer I met at the time simply did not give a shit about stuff, they just wanted their paycheck at the end of the month. Well I wanted to give a shit and so I turned it into my hobby.

It's not without its problems, of course. Giving too much of a shit turns you into an obsessive perfectionist which can be paralyzing. Can spend days thinking about the best way to do something instead of just doing it. Thankfully I have no deadlines.

zubairq• 3 years ago

Really love this, yes I always pay top dollar for people who give a shit

amzn-throw• 3 years ago

I know a lot of people here are writing about how this can be done for small consulting companies, but I also saw it in Big Tech.

Amazon until 2022 really genuinely exemplified this. I saw it for more than a decade leading up to this. Just an unbelievable collection of people that truly Gave A Shit. Publicly we called it "Customer Obsession" and through that lens you could move mountains around here in the pursuit of Doing The Right Thing.

The first sign of trouble was 2021. Salaries skyrocketed in the industry. Amazon didn't keep up. A lot of great people left because they got obscene offers, and you know, who could blame them? Our core of "intermediate" engineers (L5 here) got decimated - why bust your ass for a promotion when you can just get a Senior offer from one of 100 over-funded Unicorns for more money than you would've made here. Sensible.

Then in 2022 the stock price dropped in half and a bunch of folks who seems like were only putting up with the bullshit as long as the stock grew indefinitely left too.

Then 2023 brought layoffs.

There's still a lot of us around that Give A Shit, but I feel like we are outnumbered more and more by those that just want to punch in and out and no longer Make History. I get it. I can't blame anyone individually. But I miss it.

d0gsg0w00f• 3 years ago

Trust me. We as the customers can tell. It's really sad.

Everything that gets released today seems cobbled together and half baked. The "this is something we bought and slapped an API and product umbrella on top of" is glaringly obvious.

Back in 2018 we used to get strong "give a shit" vibes from all the product teams we talked to. Now it's more "this is what we're going to build, isn't it going to be great?".

I skip all the product meetings we get invited to now.

gnicholas• 3 years ago

Amazon until 2022 really genuinely exemplified this.

I remember Amazon from 2002 — that felt like they really gave a shit. There are occasionally times where it feels that way now, as a customer. But most of the time the customer service experience is slow, impersonal, and painful.

I understand they're a big company, and I don't expect it to be as good as when they started out. But I wouldn't say that Amazon "genuinely exemplified" giving a shit up until last year. Apple might fit that bill, but even they have fallen off recently (apparently you now have to make appointments to buy products in-store?!).

fuzztester• 3 years ago

Watch "Gary Vaynerchuk: Rails Conference Keynote | 2010" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/ZIaLTuaK1-k?si=rkic-7X67KrZvwmf

Saw it some years ago. IIRC, somewhere in the video, he yells, almost groans, "give a fuck" (about things you do), meaning the same as "giving a shit", the title of this HN thread. The overall talk is a bit funny to watch, including him strutting around the stage.

ezekiel68• 3 years ago

"See, I met a man who told me once, 'Sincerity's the key. And once you learn to fake it son, you're gonna be home free!'"

-Dennis DeYoung, Styx, "Fallen Angel" (Anecdotally, may have been referring to a quote by comedian George Burns)

avg_dev• 3 years ago

i would call this "paying attention".

l8rlump• 3 years ago

Previous discussion (152 comments):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32071349

mikhailfranco• 3 years ago

Love the superelliptical table.

rongenre• 3 years ago

Jason Lemkin's advice for startup SaaS businesses is to heavily invest in customer success: you need to give a shit. Otherwise your customer churn numbers are going to be high, and it makes failure increasingly likely.

When I was being courted by a startup for an IC position, the best question I asked was "What does your churn look like?". It was really low, and despite some other reservations I ended up taking the job, and we had an awesome exit. Because our customers really loved us, and we worked hard to make them successful.

Giving a Shit as a Service (2022)

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