Split keyboards and how to build them

https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards

by punkspider • 5 years ago

253 260 5 years ago

frostburg2• 5 years ago

I've built two Nyquist keyboards (https://ereign.is/objects/). The first one was a bit tricky (with the older PCB design one had to hand-solder a bunch of small SMDs and flash the controllers, https://imgur.com/a/NuF476Q), but the newer boards are very straightforward (and compatible with the SP50 case).

They take a bit of getting used to (hours, not days), but they're surprisingly practical.

nbzso2• 5 years ago

Speaking of real ergonomic and health in my humble opinion, the designs with Concave keywell (Kinesis/Dactyl) are the way to go. I have jumped on to Kinesis Advantage 2 and all my wrist pain is no more.

TaylorAlexander• 5 years ago

I built a dactyl manifold but still haven’t set up the layers to my liking. I’m back on my normal keyboard and wrist pain persists, but I suppose I should put some time in to adjusting to the dactyl.

denimnerd423• 5 years ago

The Kinesis Advantage is the single greatest product I've ever purchased for my health and career.

pabloarteel• 5 years ago

Around that topic of ergonomic tools, I've been wanting to try a vertical mouse.

As a designer, my right hand is over the mouse a lot of the time. I have a chronic pain on my right wirst, although, I not certain of the cause.

Anyone her has experience with this?

denimnerd423• 5 years ago

Yeah I found the Evoluent to be perfect for me. I actually had to give up mousing with my right wrist as it got too badly damaged. So now I use my left hand with a vertical mouse. Was an interesting transition period.

I think you will notice a loss of precision though. For example I could never play an FPS at my best with a vertical mouse. But for $80-100 definitely worth a try for your health.

ahelwer3• 5 years ago

Mice, as in things you drag across a desk surface, are a complete dead end ergonomically. Trackballs are the answer. I like the Kensington vertical trackball. The only thing that moves is your thumb. Those small precise wrist movements kill you.

nunez2• 5 years ago

Absolutely love them. Won’t ever go back to a regular mouse if I can avoid it.

elteto• 5 years ago

Same here. The vertical mouse has helped a lot. I've tried a few and settled on the one I liked the most. You should definitely give it a try. Be aware that it will take you a couple of days to adjust, just stick with it.

ekianjo• 5 years ago

Vertical mouse is great. I used to have wrist pain after long hours of work but now its much better with the vertical mouse.

sdfin• 5 years ago

Some months ago I was feeling some pain in my right wrist, and by buying and using a vertical mouse the pain ceased.

Right now my belief is that non-vertical mice are badly designed and I see no reason to use a non vertical one again.

mleonhard• 5 years ago

Switching to a vertical mouse cleared up my arm pain. I tried many vertical mice. Evoluent's wired vertical mouse has been my favorite since 2009. Each new version is essentially the same, just with different surface finishes.

Years later, I got wrist pain in both hands. Switching to a tenting keyboard solved it. I've used the GoldTouch V2 for 7 years now.

Do not try 3M's vertical mouse with the thumb button. I used it for a few months and developed severe pain in my thumb. Fifteen years have passed and my thumb still occasionally clicks when I bend it, due to that injury.

fpgaminer4• 5 years ago

Different things work for different people. Your only real option is to try all the options and see what works best for you personally. Luckily for wrist pain, the options are all cheap. Things to try:

Vertical mouse or trackball; they're all fine, you can get a "nice" one after finding what works first.

Wrist braces.

Wrist stretches.

Exercise; most weightlifting will improve your grip strength which helps some people.

Ergonomic chair; pain in the wrist can sometimes be caused by issues in the shoulder, which often result from a poorly placed arm rest. This is hard to notice as your shoulder might feel fine. Worth double checking.

Reduce stress; some amount of wrist pain can be caused by mental stress which results in tension and blood flow problems.

Laptop; your desktop environment might be great, but maybe you use a laptop too, and you're slowly destroying your wrists on its tiny form factor.

teamonkey• 5 years ago

A vertical mouse, combined with a wrist and elbow brace helped me immensely, where a trackpad or thumb-ball made my RSI much worse. Even just a cheap one is an improvement, but the more vertical the tilt, the better. The one I use now is the one that's rebranded by half a dozen suppliers on Amazon.

The thing that's hard to remember with a vertical mouse (and mice in general) is that you're supposed to move your arm, not your wrist. Getting used to that was more of an issue than the orientation of the mouse.

benhurmarcel2• 5 years ago

I tried the Anker Vertical Mouse, the Logitech Vertical, the Evoluent VerticalMouse 4, the Logitech Ergo (trackball), and Logitech M370 (trackball).

In the end my favorite is the Logitech Ergo with the "Plus" stand. The version that includes the stand is only sold in the US so I imported 2 of them. I got rid of all the others.

avindroth2• 5 years ago

I'd go all the way and also add dvorak (programmer's) to the mix. But if somebody goes out of the way to buy an ergonomic keyboard, they are probably fiddling around with keymaps, too.

nbzso2• 5 years ago

Advantage have Brown/Red Cherry and SmartSet Programming Engine: Dual-Layer layouts with secondary actions embedded in the “Keypad” layer US Version: Windows/Mac/PC Switchable (extra keycaps included) International Versions: Extra Windows keycap included One-touch, onboard key remapping so you can customize the layout to suit your typing style and preferences Heavy-duty, on-the-fly macros up to 300 characters long. Choose from 9 playback speeds and add timing delays to ensure proper playback. Native Dvorak layout which can be customized independently of the default QWERTY layout. All settings are saved to the keyboard’s 4MB flash memory.

andredz• 5 years ago

I sometimes use http://programmer-dvorak.appspot.com/ to practice. The ergonomics of accentuation is inconvenient, but this probably solves the problem: https://github.com/N0rthw1nd/Latin-Dvorak

nunez2• 5 years ago

I tried using a Kinesis Freestyle Bluetooth with the tents and pads; it was very comfortable but I still encountered wrist pain because of the keys being mushy. I’m going to try the mechanical version; I am hoping for better results

srcreigh2• 5 years ago

After ~1.5 years using emacs keybindings in IntelliJ, I couldn't code for more than 20 minutes without pain.

I no longer have any extended pain due to:

1. Modal editing. I use the boon package for emacs, but basically vim

2. Sticky keys. Basically, I don't have to hold down any modifiers, I just press Ctrl then press N for example. Or two Ctrl to lock it, NNNNNN, then Ctrl to return to normal. On macs this is in the Accessibility app under Keyboard. It doesn't work so well with Shift + mouse scroll though.

3. Kinesis advantage 2

4. Dvorak

I still sometimes get a bit of pinky pain since I shift and ctrl with my pinkies. With sticky keys, modal editing, and mechanical switches in the Advantage 2, it's not really a problem.

I learned that the macbook keyboards aren't that bad if I use modal editing and sticky modifier keys. Also I need to be careful to avoid so-called "ulnar deviation" of my wrists. This means I lift my wrists, let my fingers hang down more, so I can keep the wrists neutral while hitting shift etc.

I don't think Dvorak helps much, but I still like it. It was intentionally put together. I think it helped to learn Dvorak and the concave key well of Advantage 2 at the same time. I never learned qwerty on the Advantage 2 or Dvorak on macbook keyboard. I want to try the programmer's dvorak layout as well for lisp.

__mharrison__8• 5 years ago

This is similar to my setup.

Similar to a Jedi building your own light saber, you should build (and customize fw) for your keyboard :)

When I built my ergodox, I put the Norman layout on it. I use emacs bindings almost everywhere, so control is under a thumb.

(I'm still tweaking and considering a gergoplex when I get to stay travelling for training again)

dan-robertson• 5 years ago

I found the thumb keys were particularly useful for emacs ergonomics: I just have a big thumb key for each of Control and Meta with a smaller thumb key for the other one and shift on each side. I also remind some keys I use often to move them away from the corners. This entirely gets rid of emacs pinky for me. The only issue is I don’t have so many keys but I don’t really need a lot of them (home, end, delete, pgdn) as shortcuts usually suffice.

alasdair_• 5 years ago

I love the Kinesis (I own two of them). I just wish they made the exact same keyboard but in a split model.

As an aside, if you buy a Kinesis, look at getting the “LF” version of the Advantage, it comes with Cherry MX Reds instead of the defaults and the difference is enormous.

nefariousoctopi• 5 years ago

I definitely agree. One thing to note about Kinesis Advantage 2 is that it is really massive compared to other keyboards. I didn't realize before getting one for myself and seeing it on my desk.

Second thing is that quite frankly at that price point Advantage looks a and feels a bit flimsy (especially the middle part between the key wells) though it has seemingly no impact on typing.

And lastly, I have a bit broader shoulders than average and I need hands a bit more apart than the key wells on Kinesis and maybe a bit more tilted sideways (well at least I think, I am not a doctor). It is orders of magnitude better than it used to be on a regular keyboard, but I still have sore muscles around shoulder blades and back of my neck sometimes.

All of these issues seem to be solvable by a split. I still hope that Kinesis would release a split concave keyboard by themselves since among all of the concave keyboards it is by far the most user friendly (no assembly required, no QMK compiling, remapping is doable on the keyboard itself), but I am starting to oogle the likes of Dactyl, Dactyl-ManuFrom or Bastyl[1] (which is modified Dactyl with less DIY required for more $$).

If I go the DYI way I am also thinking about mounting trackball on it similar to the Tracktyl (trackball helped me immensely with my wrists). What I am a bit afraid of is that once I start doing customizations I'll need/want something easily modifiable/adjustable to experiment with quickly. This design [2] in combination with Bastyl-like flexible PCBs seems like a neat idea I'd like to try.

Be not mistaken, Advantage is, not entirely unlike a good office chair or a mattress, still worth every penny, but IMO the split concave keyboards are the "future future". I would not even think of building a keyboard before Advantage, but now I do and there is no turning back for me.

[1] https://www.hidtech.ca/?product=bastyl

[2] https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=11734

cutthegrass22• 5 years ago

Curious to know whether anyone uses QWERTY on the Kinesis Adv. I've tried switching to it a number of times (from a standard 87key board), even getting unto >60wpm consistently, but its use in terminal sessions was always frustrating. Not being able to type "cd" with the index and middle finger of the left hand means I always felt super slow in the terminal.

Should I have persevered? Is this a typical frustration of moving to a split ortholinear layout board using QWERTY?

edit: spelling

banana_giraffe2• 5 years ago

One thing I'm always curious about, especially with some of the layouts of keyboards with multiple "layers" to accomplish things:

Do people using these keyboards as their daily driver have trouble adapting to normal keyboards they need to use from time to time.

I suppose I could try one and find out if it's an issue for me, but I'd be worried I get deep into this rabbit hole only to find I'm useless if I have to work on something on some other machine.

frostburg2• 5 years ago

As long as you flash a sane layout to the controller it's not very hard unless it's a very small keyboard. 40% keyboards like the Planck are a bit harder because you lose the number row, but anything bigger isn't a big issue.

Switching back to a normal staggered layout doesn't take long for me, but I wouldn't like doing it every day.

yagyu• 5 years ago

I use a split keyboard with custom layers and find it fine to use a normal keyboard such as when on the laptop directly. They seem to activate different modes in my brain somehow.

I have much bigger problems switching between dvorak and qwerty on either keyboard, to the point where I'm considering properly relearning qwerty despite being fluent in dvorak over a decade.

cwhiz• 5 years ago

It takes a minute for me when I switch back to normal keyboards. It is definitely not seamless for me.

MikeTheGreat• 5 years ago

It takes me about a minute to recalibrate for a different keyboard, although I'm occasionally making typos for another 30-ish minutes (nothing tragic - most often happens when I reach for a somewhat rare key, like ~, `, =, +, etc).

So for me at least it's pretty quick. Having radically different keyboard layouts is actually helpful because it's really clear (to your muscle memory) that you're doing something very different.

I use the ErgoDox that I built from plans I found online, a MS Natural Ergonomic 4000, my laptop keyboard, and rectangular Dell keyboards for random computers at work.

If you've got the time/money and it looks interesting I'd encourage you to try it. If it works out you'll be happy, and if doesn't you'll at least know that it doesn't work for you. But hey, it's your choice, for sure :)

banana_giraffe2• 5 years ago

Fair enough. I realized shortly after I posted this that I can use my laptop now without much trouble, despite it's idiotic placement of the right shift key that originally made me debate returning it.

I'd probably adapt in a similar fashion. I guess I'm off to keyboard shopping now.

__mharrison__8• 5 years ago

I treat it as a different "instrument". I explicitly chose to use the Norman layout on my ergodox to further distinguish it from my laptop keyboard (which before covid-19 I had to use a lot).

See https://www.metasnake.com/blog/what-i-use.html

SulfurHexaFluri2• 5 years ago

I use an ergodox at home and the macbook keyboard at work. I don't really have any issues these days. What does stuff me up for a while is when I remap a key on the ergodox it takes a while to stop hitting the wrong key but I guess the macbook keyboard is so different that its basically a totally different thing to my brain like how typing on a phone is.

Eldandan• 5 years ago

I regularly transition from Thinkpad/laptop and 60-75% standard boards to a 60% split Ultimate Hacking Keyboard, 40% ortholinear planck, and split planck (Let's Split). The only thing that ever messed me up was using split spacebars, where one thumb maps to something besides space. I end up being confused when my less dominant thumb doesn't activate the keypress on a regular spacebar. :\ Hard to overcome the muscle memory, so I've sworn off of split spacebars unless I change all my boards to split space. Which is impossible for laptops.

Aside from that, transitioning takes no more than half a minute for it to feel natural again.

samatman4• 5 years ago

My ErgoDox layout has a few keys in radically different places, such as -, =, and `.

I do find that I get those wrong a bit when I switch back to the laptop.

Oddly, never a problem with tab and return, the main thumb keys (besides space, which doesn't change), although I really miss "delete back one word" which is my fourth large thumb key. Alt-backspace is just not the same.

eco2• 5 years ago

I thought I would have trouble switching between my Kyria and laptop but that didn't end up being the case. I'll miss hit a few of the weirder key placements before my brain switches over but it happens pretty quickly.

An unexpected side effect is I actually type a lot better on my laptop's keyboard now because the Kyria encouraged me to use all of my fingers (my ring fingers were almost never used before). I don't type noticeably faster, just much more comfortably.

1-more3• 5 years ago

The use all the fingers thing is real! I think I'm still faster with my normal laptop keyboard than I am with my splits after years with them, but I like the splits more.

flurdy7• 5 years ago

I had to abandon using a totally different layout on my mech keyboard, as I do have to use other keyboards for short stints. I spent a few weeks trying out Workman and Norman layouts, which was interesting but to annoying to switch forwards and back to Qwerty.

Now my only issue is that I accidentally hit caps-lock a lot on other keyboards as that is mapped as backspace normally, but otherwise still fast and accurate.

1-more3• 5 years ago

I've been on a very layer/hold-tap heavy vertically staggered Iris for a long time, and a Let's Split before. Touching my macbook's internal keyboard just rewires me to its layout. The way bigger thing is when I use someone else's computer and they haven't mapped Caps-Lock to control or set up emacs option shortcuts, or space-cadet shift/parentheses. Those are all changes I've made to my internal keyboard so my muscle memory is there. The external keyboard is so different that it really doesn't affect it.

Pet_Ant2• 5 years ago

I just ordered the evolved version of the Ergodox EZ, the Moonlander. https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/

I expect it plus relearning Dvorak will be a pain but I want to set myself up for life and it seems like a good investment.

wussboy• 5 years ago

I'm sure everyone has an opinion about this, but if encourage you to learn Colemak instead of Dvorak. All of the standard keywords shortcuts (copy, paste, undo) are two hand operations in Dvorak which for me was a huge break up of my workflow.

RuleOfBirds• 5 years ago

Yes to Colemak! Easier transition from Qwerty, more efficient ergonomics, most common shortcuts are the same or similarly positioned! I switched about 14 years ago and so happy I did.

mech4226• 5 years ago

Workman(1) might also be worth a try. Supposed to reduce pinky usage, overall finger travel, and balance left/right hand usage, compared Dvorak and Colemak

edit: carpalx(2) is another. I think that was one of the ones generated by a genetic algorithm for key placement?

1) https://workmanlayout.org/ 2) http://pinouchon.github.io/keyboard/layouts/2016/03/07/layou...

Symbiote11• 5 years ago

Standard touch-typing advice is to use opposing hands to type combinations like "Shift+A".

On an ergonomic, split keyboard this might be less important: the modifier keys are often under the thumbs, and on both sides.

Also, it's fairly easy to program the keys however you like, e.g. make a "Fn" key, so Fn+DvorakQ sends Ctrl+X.

benhurmarcel2• 5 years ago

To support this, you might be interested by this little article: https://github.com/bclnr/kb-layout-evaluation

bigjimmyk3• 5 years ago

I'm a 20+ year dvorak user, but if I was starting over again I'd probably go colemak.

lelag• 5 years ago

I have also been a dvorak user for about 20 years and happy with it. One of the reason I choose to use standard dvorak over other layouts was that it was available natively (even back then) on every single OS which to my knowledge is still not the case with Colemak (not natively supported in Windows).

If I have to use a computer for more than a few minutes, I know I can easily switch it to Dvorak without having to install some drivers which if it's not my computer would be a big no-no.

navindra• 5 years ago

That's a fantastic resource. Here's my own write-up on my experience with the ErgoDox EZ: https://medium.com/@navindra/adventures-with-a-programmable-...

tvanantwerp• 5 years ago

I'd love to try a split ergo keyboard, but 1) I have no interest in building one and 2) I have no interest in paying $300 for a fully-assembled one. There's got to be untapped market potential for fully assembled ergonomic split keyboards costing less than $300.

mdergosits• 5 years ago

Kinesis makes them for ~170 if you don’t want tenting or a palm rest

denimnerd423• 5 years ago

Amazon sells the Kinesis Advantage via prime so they will accept your return too.

Give it at least 2 weeks full time to adapt though. I doubt you would go back if you suffered any pain previously though.

ahelwer3• 5 years ago

These exist, look up Goldtouch. The two sides can't fully separate but they move far enough apart that I haven't had an issue.

simtel20• 5 years ago

I had old gold touches but gave them to my cousin when his arm and wrist pain became far worse than my own. I bought more, but their newer designs (circa 2005 or so, I think) resulted in the ball joint breaking on 3 keyboards before I stopped buying them.

I can't be sure if they have fixed the breaking joint problem, but I'm curious about your experience - how long have you had yours and how will has it endured so f

ecliptik• 5 years ago

Gergoplex is $160 fully assembled, but may not be for everyone. Most of the cost is usually in the switches and keycaps.

https://www.gboards.ca/product/gergoplex

__mharrison__8• 5 years ago

Tempted by these for travel. I even have a layer on my ergodox that stimulates one...

Renaud• 5 years ago

Zack Freedman's youtube channel is gold and he recently released a pretty comprehensive (and hilarious) tutorial on building your own mechanical keyboard as a getting started project into building electronics. Split keyboards are also mentioned.

How to Build MECHANICAL KEYBOARDS! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYcNi9hKxDk

ezluckyfree• 5 years ago

I built an Iris split ergo keyboard, and it's great. Most of the cost comes from the switches and keycaps (I used Zilents and a PMK set), but honestly spending a lot of money on something I probably spent >10 hours touching each day is totally worth it.

It also takes a while to get used to the lack of keys, particularly arrow keys, and various brackets for programming. However, training myself to use layers rather than moving my hand around to push them makes me much more efficient. I plan to move to a design with even fewer keys, and since the switches and keycaps can be moved to another board, it won't be as expensive.

1-more3• 5 years ago

Also on an Iris (this very second) having moved from a Let's Split. I'm a HUGE proponent of hold/tap for modifiers and programming brackets. All the ones I use most are under my thumbs with that change. I actually have symmetric modifiers on the thumbs because I effectively have double the keys. Also all my layer changes are from holding down F, D, or S which turns the right half into (respectively) arrows, numpad, and symbol pad.

dexwiz• 5 years ago

I looked at building these this summer. Ultimately I decided I wanted a split keyboard, but didn't want to learn a new ortho layout or spend $300. I ended up buying a Kinesis Freestyle 2, which is one of the few "normal" split keyboards. I liked it so much I bought a second one with the Mac Meta keys, so I still ended up spending $300 anyways, but got two keyboards. What I didn't do was spend an extra $50 on the tilt kit; a few chair leg pads as spacers was enough for me.

I have wide shoulders, bringing my heads together to type all day makes my chest tight and my back hunch. Getting a split keyboard has been my best ergo improvement since a decent chair.

voicedYoda• 5 years ago

I have a Kinesis freestyle 2 I picked up for a steal (about $20). I looked at the tenting hardware and other add ons, and determined some old odds and ends give it enough lift. I need to replace some keys, but it's been amazing. Like you, I'm broad chested, and know the spacing is super important.

bartvk• 5 years ago

That's a deal like I've never seen it, congrats. I already considered myself lucky to get it for 60 euros (US$ 72). If anyone considers getting one as well, it's worth to see if Amazon has returns.

What I like about the Freestyle2, is that it's quite flat. What I don't like, is that there isn't a menu/option key on the right keyboard.

erjiang2• 5 years ago

I'm currently using a Freestyle 2 but very tempted to get one of the keyboards featured in the linked page.

The main gripe I have with the Freestyle 2 is that I'd like to be able to separate the two keyboard halves much farther. I wish the cord between the two halves wasn't so short and hard to replace.

The other gripes are minor: don't really love the switches, the volume buttons don't work on Linux, and the tilt kit is a little annoying when I move the keyboard around (which I do a lot).

acjohnson553• 5 years ago

I moved from the Freestyle 2 to the Moonlander, and I'm a big fan of the following changes:

- Ortholinear layout, rather than staggered

- Sculptured keycaps, which I bought separately

- Modifier keys under my thumbs, making combos far easier

- Cursor keys in home position, using layers

- As you mentioned, a longer stretch between the halves

I've made many other tweaks that add joy beyond that, but those are the ones that made the upgrade worthwhile.

autocorr• 5 years ago

The prices can be steep for pre-built split-keyboards, between $200-300 USD, but if anyone has access to a university laser cutter or makerspace they can actually quite cheap to build. I made an entirely custom, split hand-wired setup for about $150 (build[1], layout[2]). Most of the cost was ordering one-off laser-cut steel and acrylic plates off the web. If you don't mind waiting a month for parts from Aliexpress and have access to a laser cutter and a soldering iron, you could make a complete split, hand-wired keyboard for about $50.

The most difficult thing for most folks is often building the QMK software[3,4] configured for their setup. But hacking a bit of C and flashing an Arduino is probably not that bad for most HN readers!

It's awesome to have an entirely custom keyboard. The split design has been great for my posture and shoulders. But the real killer is the kind of customization you get from QMK. We customize everything else about our computers, why not our primary interface to it? I love having the navigation keys and numpad right underneath my fingers using layers, having the modifiers in sane locations, and thumb keys to make your thumbs first-class-typing-citizens (e.g., Space, Shift, Backspace, Enter all within easy reach!).

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/j0hhah/o... [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/KeyboardLayouts/comments/j475mv/40_... [3] https://qmk.fm/ [4] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware

randmeerkat5• 5 years ago

All I want is a low profile, wireless ergodox, with an aluminum chassis. I would willingly pay $500+ for such a keyboard, but it just doesn’t exist.

srcreigh2• 5 years ago

I think bluetooth is just hard to get right.

I was recently in the market for a Filco Majestouch Minila keyboard. I was very scared off by a few reviews which said that bluetooth just stopped working after a while. Is $500 worth it if it could break after a year? Maybe if it was under warranty. Anyway I opted for the wired version.

Never mind my Logitech MX Master 2 mouse which I could never get to work using Bluetooth, and even disconnected all the time with the USB receiver.

3np3• 5 years ago

There are bluetooth adapters meant to convert a USB keyboard to a wireless one. Maybe worth a shot?

presentation2• 5 years ago

A USB dongle would be fine! If there was a FOSS one as good as the Logitech Unifying Receiver that would be incredible.

I use the Redox Wireless [1], maybe check that one out? The receiver has an incredibly small range though, and it's not low profile unfortunately...

[1] https://falba.tech/19644-2/?v=24d22e03afb2

steinso2• 5 years ago

I'm also looking for a low profile/travel, wireless ergodox. It also has to include QMK or a similar FW that is completely customizable. Unfortunately it is difficult to find a combination to DIY such a keyboard as well.

danielscrubs• 5 years ago

I spent last weekend looking for exactly this! You are not alone brother.

xudongz3• 5 years ago

I've been working on a aluminum and wireless version of the ErgoDox and the group buy will start this weekend. It will be around $350 excluding switches and keycaps.

With DSA keycaps (the shortest possible one) the total height is 29mm (including rubber feet).

You can see the details of the earlier laser cut prototype here (and subscribe to the mailing list for updates): https://www.xudongz.com/blog/2020/ergoblue/. The details of the aluminum version will be announced when the group buy is officially announced.

You can find also my contact information on my homepage for questions and feedback.

rendaw2• 5 years ago

I'm glad I came back here. I'm interested, but had some questions.

What's a controller? It sounds like some sort of combined battery pack/bluetooth adapter... How much extra desk space does it take? Do you have photos of that?

Also re: battery life, I assume the reason why having a "central" half reduces battery life is the same as the first version. Why can't the computer keep track of modifiers/layers? If you have two keyboards plugged in, you can press shift on one and type on the other and you'll get capital letters.

Is the group buy just for parts or is it for (partially) assembled keyboards? I'm not a DIY eletronics sort, both from an equipment and know-how perspective.

Kaze4042• 5 years ago

I bought an Ergo Dox a couple years ago. It was by far my most expensive investment so far (due to exchange rates and import taxes) but it was a complete game changer for me.

As much as I was sold on it, a part of me still thought I was being duped into buying something that wouldn't really help me in any way but I'm so glad I was wrong. Typing on the Ergo Dox feels like a completely different experience from regular keyboards, because it fundamentally is. It's a keyboard that adapts to my body and arms, as opposed to the other way around which is the (unfortunate) norm.

splintercell• 5 years ago

I purchased Moonlander (also by Ergo Dox), though the software and the build is amazing, but nothing beats my Planck, I just don't like the whole thumb setup it gets my way. I am far more comfortable with a small keyboard such as planck than a wide setup.

Kaze4042• 5 years ago

I've wanted to try a Planck for a while. Hopefully o can get one this year :)

mech4226• 5 years ago

My Ergo Dox is 'ok'. I tricked it out with Kailh box navies and it feels nice except the thumb clusters appear to be designed for wilt chamberlain. The moon lander tries to overcome that with the adjustable tilt on the thumb clusters, but I'm custom printing a dactyl instead. Might as well make one fully tailored to my hands...

dmlerner2• 5 years ago

I love my (three) keyboard.io Model 01s. Thumb clusters, palm keys, ortholinear layout, layers, arduino powered, extensive plugin system, and best of all, standard tripod mounts to which I have attached gorilla pods. (Also RGB, if you're into that.) Keyboards with ~15 degrees of adjustability in one plane are better than nothing, but this gives me full adjustability.

Took me...a while to decide how to map things for Vim + (on linux) i3wm + (on windows) Dexpot (for virtual desktops) and Aquasnap (as a window manager).

Some previous ulnar nerve pain got massively better. Thumbs are just such better digits. Why are we using pinkies for a billion keys?

betwixthewires• 5 years ago

I'm curious why none of these split designs ever feature a trackball on the right half integrated into the board somehow. There are plenty of FOSS trackball designs, it seems like it would just make sense, especially for ergonomic designs, to have a trackball set up where you don't have to move your hand over to move a cursor.

Also I don't understand why they're always missing function keys.

Merad2• 5 years ago

The Ultimate Hacking Keyboard supports a trackball or trackpad attached to the right half. The expansion modules just recently became available though so it may be hard to find reviews or people with hands on experience.

mech4226• 5 years ago

They finally released the trackball module? Cool... I'll have to look for some reviews - I'm concerned the actual trackball looks a bit small?

Edit: are you sure they started shipping? the shop page still says under development?

firstSpeaker• 5 years ago

I have the UHK v1 and waiting to see some reviews for the trackpad and the key modules before I order them

__mharrison__8• 5 years ago

Add a long time thinkpad user and someone who has a mech keyboard (unicomp) with a trackpoint, I thought these would be common place... Still waiting for a trackpoint but I have a nice big CST trackball between my split keyboard until then...

petepete• 5 years ago

The only mech keyboard with a proper trackpoint (afaik) is the Tex Yoda.

https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_lis...

snapplefish• 5 years ago

Trackpoint modules are harvestable from Thinkpad keyboards, and are well-supported in QMK (the most prolific keyboard firmware). I've used them a lot on custom splits, and they work quite well.

mech4226• 5 years ago

check out the 'tracktyls'.. The 'beast' (1) gets all the attention, but I actually like qqurn's stuff (2)(3) better. He even has a nice git repo with dactyls with trackball, electric eraser, and button based thumb clusters(4)

Oh - and the 'missing function keys' are because most of these boards are made to be used with a firmware like QMK - which lets you have 'layers'. So you have a layer with cursor movement, a layer with function, etc.

1) https://medium.com/@kincade/track-beast-build-log-a-trackbal...

2) https://imgur.com/a/TDE640k

3) https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/g3aue6...

4)https://gitlab.com/keyboards1

ebrewste• 5 years ago

Agreed on the rarity of integrated trackballs. I’ve got my numbers and f keys on layers. I don’t miss lots of dedicated keys for things that layers do well. Ymmv, but layers are why f keys are often omitted.

flor1s2• 5 years ago

This would solve one of the biggest problems I have with split keyboards; where do I put my mouse? At least I'm using a Logitech Ergo Trackball, which means that I can predictability move from the keyboard to the mouse, but there is no easy way of positioning a keyboard like the ErgoDox EZ while still comfortably using the mouse as well. I ended up switching to a smaller Razer BlackWidow Lite as it allows for a more comfortable keyboard-mouse workflow for me.

cwxm• 5 years ago

Have you tried putting it between the two parts of the keyboard? I’ve found that to work for me.

jseliger• 5 years ago

One strategy: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackball although not yet shipping.

I put a trackpad to the left of my keyboard and taught myself to mouse with my left, as well as right, hand, and it's been a big improvement. Right hand is still stronger but my left hand is now functional for many tasks.

acjohnson553• 5 years ago

I use a Magic Trackpad in the middle. But I can see how if I used a mouse or trackball, that wouldn't work as well.

I also can use mouse navigation by key on an alternate layer. I wouldn't describe it as amazing, but it's surprisingly usable.

surfsvammel2• 5 years ago

I have the Moonlander, and I keep it between the keyboard halfs. Works great.

StavrosK• 5 years ago

I, too, put my trackball between the two halves (and slightly in front).

nine_k2• 5 years ago

The point of a split keyboard is that you don't need to.move your arms, which are relaxed, or your hands. You only move your fingers, and keep your eyes away from the keyboard.

For that, you want such amount of keys which you can comfortably hit by moving just your fingers. It's normally 3 rows and 6-7 columns. And say 5+5 keys in the thumb clusters.

I personally find a layout like Kyria [1] optimal for such use.

[1] https://splitkb.com/collections/cases-and-plates/products/ky...

samatman4• 5 years ago

Function keys are trivial. I already have 1 through 0, and two more keys on the same row, so I map them to Layer 1, which I have both a momentary and toggle version of on my deck. I put F11 to the left and F12 to the right, not that it matters.

So for just F5, it's as easy to type as %. For, say, Ctrl-Alt-F4, I hit layer, then Ctrl-Alt-4, then layer again.

I grant that someone might make much heavier use of function keys and find this inconvenient. I don't miss them in the slightest.

An integrated trackball might be nice, although I'm not sure where to put it that would be comfortable. I have a trackball to the right of the keyboard, this suits me fine.

nine_k2• 5 years ago

Usually you don't want to move your hands a lot, else you'd be fine with a non-split keyboard.

But then there's very little room to put a pointer control device. With the bulky mechanical switches, you have virtually no room to squeeze in a trackpoint, like on laptops. Also, you want the space comfortably reachable by thumbs for keys.

And if you agree to lift and move your hand anyway, why not use a mouse of your choosing?

I don't yet have a solution.

the_gipsy• 5 years ago

https://atulloh.github.io/oddball/

mech4226• 5 years ago

Dang - this is nice!

Thanks - I hadn't seen it before!

wellthisisgreat2• 5 years ago

trackpoint (Lenovo style) would be absolutely amazing. I saw some DIY projects that do retrofit trackpoint to a keyboard

slightwinder• 5 years ago

You can just place a regular trackball between the keyboard-halves. Or use a keyboard-mouse if the keyboard-firmware supports it (which most of them should nowadays). A small trackpad is quite expensive and complicated, so most probably don't add them to an already expensive device because of this.

flurdy7• 5 years ago

I think that would narrow the sales to whom both like that keyboard and the chosen trackball. Some would love it, a lot would like the keyboard but prefer a different trackball or location for it. Or would after a while.

1MachineElf• 5 years ago

The best build log I've ever seen for a split keyboard featuring a trackball is the Oddball 2. I discovered it yesterday. It has a parametric design that's editable in OpenSCAD, so if it's too small for you, adding more keys should be easy.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/kxsniq/o...

https://atulloh.github.io/oddball/

__mharrison__8• 5 years ago

I get that these are expensive... But they might be a career saver.

Listen to your body. If your fingers and wrists are telling you something, take action. It doesn't have to be an expensive split.

(I have an ergodox with the Norman keyboard layout with other firmware goodies as well as running AutoHotKeys to give me emacs bindings all over the place.)

germ• 5 years ago

This. And don't underestimate how much a Keymap can be changed to fit your specific workflow. My Keymap (the default) [0] for GergoPlex is very Vim/i3/Linux orientated, but that's just because it's what I use. If you're not programming your keyboard, _why?!_

I get a ton of emails from people that wreck their hands from bad ergonomics/keyboards and are trying to find a solution. It's bloddy disgusting that we still use something like a 104/QWERTY on such a crucial input device.

[0] https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rRS_TOYuIQQ/XhRERox3moI/AAAAAAABE...

[1] https://www.gboards.ca/product/gergoplex

fpgaminer4• 5 years ago

I read a blog post on Coding Horror back in the mid 2000s about the importance of a good chair. It really opened my eyes and convinced me that, regardless of the cost, an ergonomic working environment is worth every penny.

So fast forward about two decades ... and I finally bought my first ergonomic chair...

It's stunning how stubborn we can be, even when we know for certain that something is good for us. I don't even know why I put it off for so long.

All I can really say is, don't be me. Listen to comments like the one I'm replying to. Get good equipment. Your body will thank you later.

P.S. Self Rant: I was gonna write that the reason I put it off so long is that $1000 for a chair is a big number no matter how much I may believe in its benefit ... but then, the chair I ended up buying was like $500, delivered, with all the upgrades, because it was remanufactured and on a black friday sale. Why didn't I buy one sooner!? The hell is wrong with me?

__mharrison__8• 5 years ago

Sorry about that. When I'm not standing I am in a pretty retro chair... I get a lot of flak on Twitter but it works for me...

(I have another ergo/padded chair but my back/hind isn't giving me signals)

https://mobile.twitter.com/__mharrison__/status/134632333728...

johnsoft• 5 years ago

I'm in the market for a new chair. Which one did you buy? (Or if you'd rather teach me to fish, how did you decide on one?)

flor1s2• 5 years ago

For buying ergonomic chairs on a budget, you should check out used office supply stores. You can often save hundreds of dollars for a good quality chair.

neuronexmachina2• 5 years ago

the chair I ended up buying was like $500, delivered, with all the upgrades, because it was remanufactured

Did you order your remanufactured chair from Crandall or BOTD? I just ordered a remanufactured Steelcase Leap V2 yesterday, looking forward to its arrival!

dehrmann2• 5 years ago

But they might be a career saver.

Seriously. I'll also plug vertical mice. They look goofy, but it's a better wrist position.

samatman4• 5 years ago

I picked a trackball with scroll wheel, which I'll briefly pitch:

- It's always in the same place, so reaching the mouse is completely muscle memory

- I can put it as close as possible to my keyboard

- No elbow motion except to get from keyboard to trackball

- Scrolling is a bit more than half of my 'mousing' and is easy, just spin a large wheel clockwise

I got one with two buttons, my only regret; Kensington makes one with four, but I don't care quite enough to upgrade.

cutthegrass22• 5 years ago

The Logitech MX Ergo has been a game changer for me. I'm totally fine on a 87key QWERTY board (I use a Realforce 87UB), but the Apple mouse I was using was wrecking my wrist. Horrible things.

selftest• 5 years ago

They don’t have to be expensive! More than the $30 Big Box special but often cheaper than a comparable “gaming” keyboard. I’ve built boards for as little as $50 and you can do it for even cheaper if you have access to a 3D printer and don’t mind some tedious wiring and soldering.

jamil7• 5 years ago

Some of them aren't even expensive, I have the cheap R-Go Split mentioned in the list and it's been great for me, someone with wider shoulders and long arms. I finally feel like I can type in a natural position.

Completely agree though, it took me too long and too much complaining to start looking into this area.

martin_a• 5 years ago

Any negative sides on this one? I wonder if all the others are expensive for a reason and the R-Go misses something?!?

vemv• 5 years ago

Anyone know of a compact keyboard that has 3 modifier keys (ctrl+cmd+option) per hand, at the bottom row?

The would suit greatly my editing style - I'm surprised that most hackers don't seem to appreciate this approach.

The Matias Tenkeyless models are like that, but they also could be a bit more compact.

__mharrison__8• 5 years ago

Anything that runs qmk will give you what you want.

acjohnson553• 5 years ago

With the Moonlander, I do exactly this on my left thumb cluster. I get really easy combos of Shift, Cmd, and/or Option. Ctrl is harder to combine with my thumb, so I have alternate modifier keys, too -- left Shift left of Z, left Ctrl by holding down Z, and left Alt by holding down X.

3np3• 5 years ago

I am still trying to piece together a Lily58 Pro build kit I bought from a reputable shop.

Either half will work fine independently (posing as left) but there just doesn't seem to be any way I can get them to work together.

Granted I'm very much an amateur on soldering (getting all the things soldered on properly took me several hours!) and electronics, but I just can't figure this out.

All connections seem good, the microcontrollers flash all right, etc etc.

Just a rant, I've been very excited for this but it's starting to feel like wasted effort and money... So close but yet so far.

rgoulter2• 5 years ago

You'd be able to quickly get help on a relevant discord or one of the subreddits like olkb or ergomechkeyboards.

I'd double-check the connectivity for the pins the TRRS cable connects (RX, 3V3, GND, iirc) and that you're following the right instructions to build + flash the firmware for each half.

presentation2• 5 years ago

I love the split layouts, I'm using a Redox Wireless as my daily driver :) Though I wonder, DIY keyboards usually focus on stuff like nice mechanical keyboard action, which to be honest I don't really care about that much. I would kill for a fully wireless Redox-like layout keyboard that has enough keys so you don't need to memorize weird chords to do things, just used normal chiclet keys, is as small and light as possible, and had a wireless receiver that doesn't suck (my Redox Wireless has a range of maybe 1 foot and freaks out all the time). The Kinesis Freestyle 2 is about as close as I could find (without a thumb cluster), but it's still pretty hefty and isn't fully wireless, plus I somewhat prefer the responsiveness and convenience of a Logitech-style unifying keyboard USB dongle over Bluetooth; and I found this other split keyboard [1], but it seems to be no longer produced.

I just wish there was a mass-market split ergo keyboard with similar form factor/polish as the Apple Magic Keyboard or one of any of the common Logitech keyboards out there.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/peripheral-logix-uekb-rf-ultraergo-wi...

opan2• 5 years ago

fully wireless

One idea is to pick a DIY kit as close to what you want as possible and to use the nice!nano[0] for the controller in place of a pro micro/elite-c. It's a drop-in replacement but also has bluetooth and can have a small battery connected.

chiclet

While not chiclet, there are the kailh choc[1] switches which are lower profile than the mx switches that are more commonly used. A note that not all boards are compatible with them, so look for choc support as you look at PCBs.

[0] https://keyhive.xyz/shop/nicenano

[1] https://novelkeys.xyz/collections/switches/products/kailh-lo...

bbkane• 5 years ago

This is exactly how I feel! If you find something, plesae reply here soI can buy one too :)

rattray• 5 years ago

I use an Apple Magic Keyboard with my left hand and my macbook keyboard with my right. I prop the laptop up a bit so the external keyboard is half underneath the laptop.

Simple, and keeps my fingers accustomed to the apple layout for when I need to type away from my desk. Also keeps my thumb on the trackpad.

Not as ergonomic as others, but for my shoulders a huge step up from just a normal keyboard

tome• 5 years ago

I'm glad you said this. I had a lot of success with just buying two keyboards and placing them next to each other. The hand separation was pretty much ideal. I don't get RSI anymore though, so I'm back to a single keyboard.

a9h74j2• 5 years ago

Has anyone tried a split keyboard with an old cell phone or other display (perhaps propped up a bit) in between?

There ought to be some end-of-life app(s) for all the obsolete-or-insecure Android models out there, rather than have billions of them go to landfills.

We need uses-cases and options. It might not be some new kbd/display/other-hid co-design, but but might be.

jaredandrews• 5 years ago

I'm an Android developer and I have stands for 2 phones between my split keyboard (the Kinesis Gaming model, used to have the Advantage which I also love).

I keep the phones between my keyboard to focus on during development which doesn't address the more interesting part of your question.

I have many old phones around now, some that can't even be updated to support the minimum OS of the app I am building. So I have tried to figure out what to do with the old phones.

Most common android reuse case: IP Camera. There are a few different apps which turn your phone into an IP Cam. I have used old phones to watch my 3D printer, explore under the floor in my house (phone attached to stick), to watch/record plants grow, and as a security cameras. The problem is, often with these old phones, streaming live video will drain the battery faster than the charger can charge it. I'm still looking at workarounds for this latter issue. Depending on what you are trying to film it can be surprising how "good" the old Android cameras are.

I usually use this app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pas.webcam...

The other thing I have done is turn them into dashboards, this is more applicable to tablets though.

a9h74j2• 5 years ago

Thanks. Maybe the app "IP Webcam" needs a time-lapse or N-frames-per-second mode to save on battery draw (use-case permitting).

eco2• 5 years ago

My Kyria has two OLED displays. Frankly, they are neat but pointless. Looking down at your keyboard is the last place you'd want to be looking while typing. If you aren't a touch typist you are probably looking at the keys, but the screen.

People have done fun stuff with the screens on these split ergos but it's all just novelty stuff (nothing wrong with that, of course).

jvolkman• 5 years ago

I just use the one Microsoft sells for $60. What am I missing?

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/microsoft-ergonomic-keyboard-bl...

SulfurHexaFluri2• 5 years ago

Honestly not a whole lot. I have the much more expensive ergodox ez and the main features would be mechanical switches, full customization of the keyboard layout and the fact that you can spread them further out. On the ergodox you can have your arms pointing forwards rather than angled inwards. If none of that sounds interesting than there is no reason to get anything more.

erjiang2• 5 years ago

On a split keyboard with two halves, you can independently move the two halves around. This is great if you don't like the Microsoft-designed angle or want to change the positioning.

Other than that, probably just customizability in terms of switches, keycaps, etc.

rgoulter2• 5 years ago

Customisable firmware. e.g. simulating different "layers" of keys to reduce finger movement, dual-function keys depending on whether the key is tapped or held (which allows for using modifier keys on the home row, reducing finger movement), etc. This can be done with software like kmonad; but I imagine that's less convenient than having it on the keyboard itself.

With the keyboard being physically split, your hands don't have to be so close together.

Also the row-staggering of more common off-the-shelf keyboards just feels so weird after seeing keys arranged in a grid, or vertically staggered.

Kototama2• 5 years ago

Mechanical keys. It feels very great to type with them.

dgregd• 5 years ago

Kudos for Microsoft for that keyboard. Compared to the previous 4000 model they made the 2019 model more ortholinear. Notice the offset between the A key and the Z key. It is not pure ortholinear but it makes possible to type with your pinky Q, A, Z letters without stretching that much. This is the first popular keyboard which goes into the right direction and breaks the 150 years old design!

If your are more demanding then it is becoming not ortholinear enough. Later on you will want to have staggered columns like Keyboardio model 01, Kyria, Kinesis Advantage all have. After you'll try the QMK firmware you'll start to hate that Office and Emoji keys, which are under your strongest finger but are basically useless.

Symbiote11• 5 years ago

Additional thumb keys.

The Microsoft keyboard is good (their best yet, I think), but only Space and the two Alt keys can be pressed with the thumb.

On my keyboard², I have Alt, Backspace, Ctrl, and "Fn" for my left thumb, and "Fn", Enter/Ctrl¹, Space, Alt with my right thumb. Slightly less comfortably, I also have Esc (left) and Delete (right).

The Kinesis Advantage 2³ is the most common mass-produced keyboard with thumb keys like this.

¹ It's enter if I tap it, and Ctrl if I press it in combination with another key

² http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/501437fce9123e...

³ https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/

dehrmann2• 5 years ago

I keep looking for something like a mechanical version of the MS Sculpt keyboard. I like that the sides are solidly attached, the slight tenting, and that there's a bit of a profile to the keys--they're not just planar. Too many of the ergonomic split keyboards are infinitely adjustable, but the adjustments are finicky.

Symbiote11• 5 years ago

There's the Cloud Nine C989 [1] (though I don't know how the mechanism to keep the two halves attached works), or for a DIY option there's the NEK Type A [2].

For the profile of the keys themselves, you can make small changes to an existing keyboard by changing the keycaps -- although it's not always easy to find all the sizes required for an unusual keyboard. See [3]. I have SA keycaps on an otherwise-flat keyboard.

[1] https://c9ergo.com/products/cloud-nine-c989m-ergonomic-keybo...

[2] https://github.com/ecopoesis/nek-type-a

[3] http://xahlee.info/kbd/keycap_profiles.html

bonchicbongenre• 5 years ago

I recently was gifted -- very, very generously! -- a Moonlander Mark I split, ortholinear keyboard [0] (made by the same company that previously made the Ergodox). It's genuinely fantastic, and I can't ever see myself going back to either a non-split or a non-ortholinear board as my desktop's input. It's a huge improvement ergonomically -- (0) no hunched shoulders, with the halves at shoulder width (1) the ortholinear layout results in much more natural-feeling finger motions and (2) the ability to "tent" the individual halves is also wonderful, for not having to twist your wrist out of its natural somewhat-diagonal position. Beyond that, the ability to easily modify up to 32 layers of functionality [1], with macros, really is astonishingly useful once set up to your personal workflow. If I were to lose it, I'd order a replacement immediately. Highly recommend, for anyone who can justify the board's price -- I'm normally fairly frugal, so the fact that I consider a $400 keyboard anything except an egregious waste of money really speaks to how much I like this device.

[0] https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ [1]: https://www.zsa.io/oryx/

winrid• 5 years ago

Has anyone tried this and the Freestyle Pro and have a preference?

piinecone• 5 years ago

I couldn’t agree more. I’ve been using a Kinesis Advantage and a Mistel Barocco (when traveling) for years. I recently switched to the Moonlander and I love it.

Coming from the Kinesis Advantage the adaptation period is short, and since the moonlander is so easy to program I didn’t really have to adjust my habits. If anything, I’m trying to learn that I can use its programmability to my advantage to make my life easier.

I’m also very happy that it’s hot swappable, so I can start experimenting with different switches.

ashkankiani3• 5 years ago

Why would you switch to the moonlander from the Kinesis? The curved design of the kinesis is way better for reducing strain than the flat style of the moonlander/ergodox. If the only factor is programmability, then I think that factor may be overexaggerated in how important it is. Know that anyone who wants to riposte that last point should realize that I'm not a novice to making my own keyboards or programming them. While layers seem like a good idea, it's very difficult to actually come up with enough usecases to find them more useful than just the ability to remap keys and record macros, both of which the Kinesis Advantage 2 can already do.

I also find having two separate pieces a bit annoying since I'll tend to want to fidget with them instead.

surfsvammel2• 5 years ago

I have the same board and I am generally happy with it. There is one warning I’d like to make though; I have fairly small hands and I feel that my hands have to reach more using this keyboard than with other split keyboards I’ve used. It’s purely anecdotal though, because I have done some measuring and cannot actually find that there is any significant difference in distance between keys compared to my old keyboard. So, there must be something else at the root of that feeling.

It is, however, something I’ve heard from others as well.

In general though, it is a great keyboard. It is expensive, compared to off the shelf Logitech and Microsoft boards, but seen as a the main tool I use for getting my job done, it’s no cost to pay.

gundmc2• 5 years ago

I have smaller hands as well and have adapted well to the Moonlander. I have found that I prefer to keep the thumb cluster tilted upwards to reduce the distance to my space/return keys.

Unfortunately this means I can't use the tenting since that requires the thumb cluster to tilt down and act as one of the legs. That's my only real gripe so far.

badlucklottery• 5 years ago

I have fairly small hands and I feel that my hands have to reach more using this keyboard than with other split keyboards I’ve used

The Moonlander has a lot of key rows for a "flat" keyboard so there's going to be some reaching if you use them all. I have relatively large/long hands and coming from a Kinesis Advantage (which has a similar number of rows) it was a lot of reaching for the top and bottom rows, especially the corner keys. I ended up putting a lot more keycodes on layers to get around it.

But I ended up building a Bastyl last month: https://www.hidtech.ca/?product=bastyl#tab-description

I still get QMK and the true split design (which helps with my shoulders) but I also get the curved keywells back so I can hit everything on the keyboard pretty easily. I did lose that bottom row but I just pushed the useful keys to the thumb cluster.

willtim2• 5 years ago

The Kinesis Advantage 2 has the keys in a concave well, which means less reach is needed to get them. It's similarly priced and worth a try!

matsemann2• 5 years ago

It's a huge improvement ergonomically

But what if you need to use a mouse? Then what I've found best ergonomically is to use a "rollermouse". But I don't feel that works well with a split keyboard, and then I prioritize the mouse. (For me my elbow is the biggest issue)

shiftpgdn• 5 years ago

I found what caused my RSI was going from keyboard to mouse over and over. Getting a keyboard with a trackpoint so I could keep my hands static fixed it. I would eventually like to get a split keyboard with the thumb trackpoint.

soenkeliebau5• 5 years ago

Personally I think a mouse is not replaceable by anything else that even gives remotely the same productivity. What can be improved is how often you have to reach for your mouse and how much your hands have to move on the keyboard.

I have personally switched to a tiling window manager that allows me to do much with the keyboard, added the surfingkeys plugin to chrome to allow the same when browsing and switched to using the neo2 keyboard layout (this is for Germans, Dvorak or something similar might be better for you).

The combination of these factors has massively improved how much I need to reach for the mouse throughout the day.

Kototama2• 5 years ago

I put the mouse between the two parts of my Ergodox. It decreases the elbow movements and the tension.

You can also program the keyboard to control the mouse pointer but I found it not practical.

gundmc2• 5 years ago

The Moonlander default layout has a layer that emulates mouse controls. It's not great for long sequences but can help with some small tasks where you prefer not to lift your hands from your keyboard.

For those of you with one at home: hold ';' and then control the mouse with E,D,S,F and left and right arrows left and right click respectively.

Cu3PO422• 5 years ago

I have tried a bunch of things for this issue. I tried placing a trackpad between the two halves, I tried it on either side as well. It didn't really work for me.

What I landed on is a) mapping the mouse to an extra layer that I use when I only need minimal movement, b) using VIM extensions for as many programs as possible, including my browser and c) just using a normal mouse otherwise.

soenkeliebau5• 5 years ago

I have looked at that keyboard a lot and am really tempted to splurge, but .. What is putting me of is the missing dedicated cursor keys at the bottom right. I use a layout on my current keyboard that has cursor keys on e,s,d,f with a modifier and use that a lot, but not exclusively.. I have the same issue with the ultimate hacking keyboard and others.

Has that bothered you at all, or did you find a layout that works for you and keeps the cursor keys?

Symbiote11• 5 years ago

The Moonlander (and most of the ones being discussed) is fully programmable, so you can move the keys around as you wish.

I have ← ↑ ↓ → in a line on the four lower keys on the right of my ErgoDash. Not having the ⊥ arrangement took a little time to get used to.

I considered some fancy QMK (keyboard firmware) hacking to keep the inverted T, and have the key above ↓ change between Z and ↑ depending on the keypress before, but decided it wouldn't be practical. However, the Z is for Dvorak. A Qwerty layout, where it would be /, might cause less trouble.

UHK2• 5 years ago

You can have the cursor keys where you want on UHK, see the webdemo of the UHK Agent software: http://ultimatehackingkeyboard.github.io/agent/#/keymap/QWR and if you buy the modules you can also have additional actions, without taking your hand off the keyboard, because you do not even need a mouse.

Here is the latest review, from 4:00 could be the most interesting part for you https://blog.sebastian-daschner.com/entries/review-ultimate-...

barnacled• 5 years ago

This really seems like a kinesis advantage but split which is cool. I own an advantage 2 and it has really helped with RSI. Personally I prefer a single unit so it's ideal for me!

It makes such a difference to have everything comfortably laid out at shoulder width.

wanttocommentt3• 5 years ago

A lot of the shortcuts I'm using in my IDE(intellij) are including one of the F-keys. I see that most of those keyboards are not having the top row with the F-keys, so I'm wondering how others deal with this? This was also the reason I bought the Logitech Ergo K860, which is so far pretty ok.

mewse• 5 years ago

I use a split keyboard which not only doesn’t have a row of F-keys, it doesn’t even have a number row; it’s three by six keys on each half.

I use chorded keystrokes for F-keys. I have a layer key (named “Lower”, and located where the ‘Windows’ key is on normal keyboards); hold that down with your left thumb and the middle row of keys on the left split (caps lock -> g, under a qwerty layout) become F1->F6. And the bottom row of keys on the left split (left shift->v) become F7->F12.

I actually find it a whole heap easier to hit those key combinations than trying to find various physical F-keys three rows away from the home row; I think I’d actually set up a macro like this even if I was using a full-sized keyboard; I just find it to be easier.

(although I don’t actually use F7->F12 for anything, normally; that might be a little awkward in terms of finger positioning and I’d think about maybe moving them over to the right side of the split if I used them with any regularity)

wanttocommentt3• 5 years ago

I see, thanks for the reply. I think I can't really judge if I never tried it, but I think that adding an additional key to achieve the shortcuts might make it a little bit awkward. A lot of shortcuts I'm using already need three fingers(shift + cmd + some F-Key)

I agree that the usage of the F-Keys is a little bit complicated, especially if you have small fingers.

Symbiote11• 5 years ago

I have an ErgoDash with no F-keys, and I miss them.

I have two ways to press F5: I can press Fn+5, or I can press 5 and the key below (Y on Dvorak) together. I usually use the latter, since it can be done one-handed, but I would still prefer a real key.

My next keyboard is likely to be something like a Dactyl Manuform, and I don't see the point of _not_ including the F-keys when I'm printing the case myself.

I don't miss dedicated PgUp/PgDown/Home/End keys. I have these as Fn+↑ etc, which is fine -- I mostly use these keys when I'm typing with both hands, whereas the F-keys are often useful in combination with the mouse.

wanttocommentt3• 5 years ago

I think with Dactyl Manuform it's also easier to reach the F-keys. After I paid attention I noticed it's very hard to travel to the F-keys without leaving the default position with my other fingers.

vjaswal• 5 years ago

No ones mentioned the Dygma Raise, yet. I HIGHLY recommend them. It has a great solid metal build that doesn't flex. It's very compact. And it has hot-swappable switches which are very easy to replace. That was critical. I put in Zilents v2 67g switches and it feels great; very tactile and buttery smooth. I tried speed switches and Cherry browns too, but the zilents were the best for coding.

It's marketed as a gaming keyboard, but it's fantastic as an ergo. It's the best keyboard I've ever had. Previously I used the Microsoft ergo, forever.

Another subtle consideration is the placement of the Alt/Option keys next to the space bar. A deal breaker with a lot of other split keyboards, like the Kinesis, is that they have space bars that are too wide, so the modifier keys are too close to the outside edges. But the Raise has a compact space bar, so your thumb doesn't need to contort as much to use them. The software to reprogram the layers is decent, somewhat obtuse, but easy enough for basic remappings. For example, I reprogrammed some letter keys to be arrow keys when pressed with a modifier.

Oh, the only downside so far is that it really could use a row of function keys on the top, to mimic the macbook laptop layout.

They haven't released a keyboard tilt/tenting kit yet, so I had to make my own to give the inner edges a height of about 1.5 inches. Also, I place an elevated magic trackpad right in between the two halves. It's a frankenstein keyboard-mouse setup, but now it's very comfortable.

knacky• 5 years ago

I will second the Dygma Raise. It's a great split keyboard with a staggered layout and eight thumb modifiers (rather than a single spacebar). This was great for me since I didn't want to take on the learning curve of a ortholinear layout.

fblp• 5 years ago

I'm curious if anyone else is wanting a split keyboard tray to go with these split keyboards? I'm currently making one - 2 individual trays that can be moved in and out and tucked under the desk.

wellthisisgreat2• 5 years ago

Obligatory mention of Sinc and Quefrency - amazing boards that are also fun to build (use Zilents of course). I was somewhat concerned about the DIY look but it's actually not that DIY after all and has something unique about it

anotheryou3• 5 years ago

I love split, ortho, QMK, but I just prefer the feel of rubberdome...

Sholmesy• 5 years ago

There are certain switches that would likely accommodate your preference.

Maybe a lightweight linear. NK Silk Reds maybe.

Worst part of the keyboard community is discovery imo.

anotheryou3• 5 years ago

I forgot to add low-profile to the requirement :)

ruiseal• 5 years ago

Heresy. Is there any particular reason? Even the people who I've talked to that like rubber dome say linear is better.

steinso2• 5 years ago

I'm in a similar boat as I prefer scissor switches, in particular Apples butterfly ones. For me in general it is the travel. All the mechanical switches have significant travel, even the kailh choc ones have a lot more travel compared to butterfly switches.

anotheryou3• 5 years ago

I like them laptop style: low-profile, silent, light, slightly tactile.

Haven't tried low profile linear mech ones yet.

kmlopez• 5 years ago

I’ve a split keyboard user for 2 years now, I’ll never go back to the traditional ones.

jeromenerf• 5 years ago

I have used an ergodox EZ for a while, loved it, bought a Planck EZ and found out I prefer the smaller keyboard.

estsauver• 5 years ago

I found the Planck too small for me/caused arm strain.

If anyone in the Eu wants to trade a Planck for Ergodox/Moonlander, I'd be happy to swap! :)

Symbiote11• 5 years ago

This repository was abandoned for a while, so I remixed/forked it into a gallery view with filters. It can be easier to get an overview, or search for something specific (e.g. only a traditional "Microsoft Ergonomic" layout).

https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-keyboards/

There's also http://xahlee.info/kbd/diy_keyboards_index.html which has reviews.

sethammons3• 5 years ago

Missing the cloud9 split ergo

Symbiote11• 5 years ago

The Cloud Nine C989?

It's there, under "Traditional" since the layout is fairly standard (no thumb keys etc).

blindluke2• 5 years ago

I wonder, is there a place one can buy a prebuilt 40% keyboard, with keycaps, the full shebang? Split or not, I'd love to have a portable mechanical keyboard to carry around, but I don't have the time nor patience to mess with a kit. Aby suggestions?

dmlerner2• 5 years ago

keyboard.io atreus? it's a novel layout, not just the standard rectangular grid, but very comfortable. available in a range of switch types.

Symbiote11• 5 years ago

In Europe (though they deliver anywhere) there's Falba.Tech. They're on the expensive side due to the wooden cases.

There's https://mechboards.co.uk/ in the UK, but no split options as far as I see.

There's https://www.gboards.ca/ in Canada.

(I'm sure there's someone in the US too, but I'm in Europe and haven't looked much beyond here.)

[1] https://falba.tech/customize-your-keyboard/customize-your-mi...

blindluke2• 5 years ago

Thank you. Falba is pretty much exactly what I was hoping to find, especially since I'm in Europe too. Appreciate the help.

gwenzek• 5 years ago

littlekeyboards.com in US, splitkb.com in EU

LockAndLol3• 5 years ago

As a software developer, I'm pretty lost when it comes to circuits, soldering, etc. I can mix and match parts for my PC and not fuck up, but building hardware from scratch is something totally new to me.

Are there any European stores that sell the kits or parts to build these keyboards? I've had pretty bad experiences buying stuff from outside the EU. If something is faulty, broken, etc., you're pretty much SOL, while in the EU you can return it and get your money back.

Symbiote11• 5 years ago

https://keycapsss.com/ (Germany)

https://falba.tech/ (Poland)

https://candykeys.com/ (Germany)

https://mykeyboard.eu/ (Belgium)

LockAndLol3• 5 years ago

Good list, thank you. Having a look at them.

adamcstephens• 5 years ago

https://splitkb.com/ Is in NL and the owner is very accessible. I hung out in their discord for a while during my research phase and leaned a lot.

LockAndLol3• 5 years ago

Thank you! Checking it out.

kiesel• 5 years ago

Having a good keyboard is important (not only for ergonomics, but also for efficiency) in our business. But I find I'm having difficulty when temporarily switching from US to DE keyboard layout, or when using a mac (vs linux) - so what would using a completely custom keyboard do to my general computer user ability?

This is why I never considered buying one of these...

Cu3PO422• 5 years ago

I find that changing the layout creates significant mental overhead for me as well, so I just don't do it. I use the NEO layout [1] which contains all the characters and symbols I could possibly need in reasonable locations. I barely need to leave the home row to write any of the symbols needed during programming or writing TeX.

As for physically different keyboards, I've found it to be a much lesser issue than I expected. I recently got a Moonlander [2] due to general hand and wrist pain that could only be attributed to strain from typing.

I took care to map the layout quite closely and the physical layout was almost immediately usable. I started at around 2/3 my normal typing speed but was back to 100% in a matter of a week.

Going back to a normal keyboard takes minimal effort. I can still type on them quickly, I just loathe them more than I did before now that I know how much more comfortable it could be.

[1] https://neo-layout.org/

[2] https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/

lycopodiopsida• 5 years ago

At least on the mac I do not use the german layout at all. For typing an Umlaut I type instead Opt(Alt) + 'u' to get an ¨-sign, then I type a/o/u to get the letter. The same with ß - just Opt + 's'.

It is maybe a bit annyoing if I have to type in german a lot on some days, but it is less annoying then to keep an extra layout. And since I sometimes have to type in french and often in russian... well, you get the idea, it would be a mess of 4 keyboard layouts. With special characters I can push the amount of keyboard layouts just to colemak and russian.

justtocomment• 5 years ago

Something to be aware of:

most (all?) of these keyboards give the thumbs more to do than merely pressing the "space" key. This is awesome, because thumbs are strong and relatively quick.

However: with the exception of those sculpted keyboards (Dactyl-ManuForm et.al.), the thumb keys are triggered by lateral thumb movement, which can be troublesome.

I had absolutely no problems using traditional keyboards for ~30 years, but decided to proactively switch to a split keyboard (ReDox) nonetheless.

Mostly it's great, but I developed pain in my thumbs from the constant uncommon (to me) lateral thumb movement.

I replaced the thumb switches with lighter ones and remapped my keyboard layout to use only 4 of the available 12 thumb keys, but it's still not ideal.

I'm thinking about building one of those sculpted keyboards now.

wolrah• 5 years ago

This is one of the reasons I chose a Moonlander over an Ergodox for my first split keyboard, the ability to fold the thumb cluster down to an angled position seemed like it'd be more natural. So far in the two months I've been using it I think I was correct about that (that said, when closer to flat the Moonlander's cluster is at a much steeper angle off the rest and is less than ideal)

Also likewise on thinking about a sculpted build, the rabbit hole is deep with these things. Redox Manuform is where I'm currently leaning, I like the extra keys and the thumb cluster looks a bit better. Unfortunately that means going full custom, since while a few vendors sell prebuild Dactyl Manuforms no one seems to do the Redox version.

tnorthcutt• 5 years ago

IME the Keyboardio Model 01 (sold out but used ones come up for sale, and they're working on a new model) addresses this issue well. Maybe worth looking into.

sethammons3• 5 years ago

Missing: cloud9. It is very, very similar to the Microsoft Ergo 4000, but is a split ergonomic mechanical keyboard; I really enjoy it. I also have the ergodox ez, but quickly abandoned it due to the steep learning curve.

dhagz• 5 years ago

I've been in love with minimal keyboards for about a year or two now. I used to use a MiniVan Rev2 as my daily driver. Then I bought a GergoPlex on a whim and couldn't believe how amazing it was. I love the lack of weird stretches in the default key layout, and the chording engine Germ made for it is amazing and really makes it feel like I have a full-size keyboard. And being able to have the two halves exactly shoulder-width apart helps me keep a neutral position for my arms. All it's missing is tenting, but that's easy to do myself.

All in all, I highly recommend getting (or building) a split keeb.

andrewla• 5 years ago

The one feature that would have me consider using one of these keyboards would be the duplication of the center keys.

An early training as a classical pianist has given me fairly good hand posture, so I've never had any wrist pain or anything despite doing a great deal of typing. It also means that my hands float, so I can reach keys that require some lateral motion, which means that keys like TYU/GH/VBN are crossover keys for me -- I might hit them with either hand.

So the obvious design for me would be to have a split keyboard that has those keys on both sides. Why choose a split? Just duplicate the keys!

kaz-inc• 5 years ago

My ergodox config has that feature. Interestingly, I also played piano as a kid and I've had no problems floating my hands, though I hadn't made that connection before.

https://configure.ergodox-ez.com/ergodox-ez/layouts/3qeVW/la...

alexpotato• 5 years ago

I recently switched from a standard layout to split by purchasing a Koolertron programmable keyboard.

Main reason I bought it vs the Moonlander:

- Cheaper

- On Amazon

- got it in <1 week vs the 5 for the Moonlander.

Overall, I would recommend it as an intermediary step if you are looking to test out a decent and easily purchasable/returnable split mechanical keyboard.

I have a more detailed write up on my thoughts here: https://twitter.com/alexpotato/status/1350530940561457155

benfrain• 5 years ago

Has anyone mentioned the Zergotech Freedom? New to the market and built like a tank. Review: https://benfrain.com/review-zergotech-freedom-ergonomic-mech...

The glass sliding armrests are certainly unique.

rpiguyshy2• 5 years ago

why is there no "typing glove?" some kind of device that is attached to your hand that tracks the minute movement of your fingers, and translates them into keystrokes? the amount of physical movement for each keystroke would be dramatically reduced and so it would be faster as well. even without going this far, wouldnt it be much faster to have a keyboard where there is only one button for each finger, and combinations of depressions map to keys? that way you would never have to move your fingers more than is necessary.

Symbiote11• 5 years ago

The closest is probably the Lalboard: https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard

rpiguyshy2• 5 years ago

this is almost exactly what i was talking about! but this seems like it uses a ring of buttons around each finger. it uses more than one discreet button per finger rather than one button per finger plus using combinations of key-presses. and i think the design is flawed ergonomically because your fingers press downward instead of inward. an ideal version of this keyboard would be a ring about the size of your palm with keys around its edge, and to use it you mate your palm with the surface of the ring and pull on each key to depress it kind of like the way you pull the trigger of a gun. has nobody really made that yet?

Syzygies3• 5 years ago

After a decade-long respite from three flaky Kinesis Advantage keyboards (they must have modernized by now) and a several year foray into the Dvorak layout, I went way down the mechanical keyboard rabbit hole last year.

After some beginner choices (Obinslab Anne 2 Pro), I quickly rejected any keyboard that didn't support QMK firmware. My configuration has two sets of nine "tap/hold" keys (UIO JKL M,. and their mirrors) for modifier keys and custom layers. My hands hardly move, which for my particular physical health seems more important than their position on my desk, and more important than the QWERTY - Dvorak question.

My favorite mechanical keyboards had been the GergoPlex, ErgoDox EZ, Planck EZ, and a KBDFans DZ60. Then I purchased a Leopold FC660C and Hasu's replacement QMK controller.

I like Topre switches so much more than any mechanical switch I've tried, that I can't bring myself to use any other keyboard. Topre switches are the obsession killer. You can't swap them, you can't post pictures on Reddit of your gaudy new keycaps, all you can do is customize your QMK configuration.

It's a bit like the shaving rabbit hole. What sticks, if one returns to expensive Gillette cartridges, is the brush and Mitchell's Wool Fat Shaving Soap. No one returns to spray cans.

Syzygies3• 5 years ago

One thought "design pattern" I pay attention to is respecting multiple modes. For example, language learning tends to focus on single-phase progress. In practice, a tourist such as myself, bad at many languages, will study before a trip and hope it all comes together during the trip. One realistically doesn't continue studying during a trip, but one's mind shortens available connections to develop a working facility. This favors committing a radio play to memory, over the staggered recall patterns of single-phase language study. Von Neumann could recall entire books, but in sequence. That's key.

For keyboards, the most novel designs are better at intense coding sessions, but worse at hunt-and-peck finding an arrow key, or muting one's computer in the middle of the night before the dog wakes everyone up. For me, the middle "tap/hold" zone of my Leopold FC660C is perfect for long coding and typing sessions, while the periphery does a great job of supporting casual use.

therealdrag0• 5 years ago

PSA: There's a marketplace on reddit for buying/selling mechanical keyboards: https://www.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/

Split keyboards and how to build them

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