Bose QC 35 Firmware 4.5.2 Noise Cancellation Investigation Report

https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-QC-35-Firmware-4-5-2-Noise-Cancellation-Investigation/td-p/285738#anoverview

by robbiet480 • 6 years ago

640 321 6 years ago

community.bose.com

nreilly• 6 years ago

That's a fantastic way of showing a company is listening to customer feedback and acting upon it, even if there doesn't seem to be anything wrong.

Apple (and many other companies) could learn something from this transparency.

jmcgough2• 6 years ago

I bought QC 35's a year ago and wish I had sooner. They're very well designed, and reading this makes me respect Bose even more. This is why their brand name is still so trusted.

cheez2• 6 years ago

best headphones I've owned, buy them for everyone who asks lol

jmcgough2• 6 years ago

I have studio cans for music, but these are my dailies. They're so convenient for taking calls and make open offices much more bearable.

ninkendo2• 6 years ago

You must never use them to make calls. (The audio quality is absolutely awful when in Self Voice mode, which is enabled for anything that uses the mic, and you can’t disable it.)

rconti4• 6 years ago

I bought mine after demoing at Best Buy. I was comparing them to the Sennheiser Momentum (forget which number) and one other headphone that I forget. The QC35 were the last ones I put on. They were immediately head and shoulders above the others just in terms of comfort. They were so light they virtually disappeared on my head and ears. Amazingly, the sound quality was almost irrelevant, although they were my favorite in that regard as well. (I've heard the Sonys might have slightly better ANC, but most of the competitive models are fairly similar which each having one area they're slightly better than the others).

The only thing I felt I was giving up in the Bose is in power. When I demo'd them, I ran them up as loud as I wanted to go. Then I tried to go one notch higher, and found I was already at the top.

Over the years, I've found the exact same thing. They go exactly as loud as I want and no louder. Every once in awhile, I try to push it a bit more, and find I'm already at the top.

Impressively, they never clip, and the bass is always "just enough". But I'm sure for some folks that won't be quite enough.

disillusioned• 6 years ago

My goodness. I've been following this issue, and avoiding upgrading my firmware, for about two years now. But this is so incredibly thorough and shows just how seriously they took these concerns, and validating, or invalidating them.

They really dug deep here, and I respect them all the more for it. I've had really good experiences with Bose products, even though they're priced at a slight premium. They're just VERY high quality.

hackerbabz2• 6 years ago

Silly question, but how the heck do you update the firmware? I have QC35 and I never realized they could be updated. Do I need to use the app? If I just never use the app am I safe from this bug?

frereubu3• 6 years ago

Yes, you use the app to upgrade the firmware.

DoofusOfDeath2• 6 years ago

Assuming that the report isn't subtly misrepresenting the situation in some way, that's a fantastic job. It adds to my confidence in the hardware/firmware quality of their product.

I do however have lingering concerns about their spyware [0]. Does anyone know if that's been addressed?

[0] https://fortune.com/2017/04/19/bose-headphones-privacy/

DoofusOfDeath2• 6 years ago

Update: I think my question is partially answered here [1]. They seem to want far more information that I'm interested in sharing with them.

[1] https://www.bose.com/en_us/legal/privacy_policy.html

nodamage• 6 years ago

Wonder if they're doing anything similar with the "headphones randomly powering on even though the switch is turned off" issue?

xur17• 6 years ago

I had this issue with the QC 35 version 1, and they shipped me replacement headphones for free.

chewxy• 6 years ago

Wow, I am amazed at the level of care. I currently use a QC25, and did not update to 35 because I am not happy about the Siri/Google/Alexa integration. Still, I am definitely floored by the amount of care Bose provides on their product.

I guess my next set of headphones will still be from Bose.

bdcravens• 6 years ago

Note that integration is in the QC 35 Series II - they aren't present in the original QC 35. They of course don't sell those new anymore, but you may be able to find them on Amazon on eBay. I had both the 25 and 35, and consider the 35 a great upgrade.

funkaster• 6 years ago

I used to have the QC25 until they disappeared from my desk at work. Got the new 700 and holly cow, those are great headphones. I don’t even use the app/any integration, just regular bt headphones and they work just great: I can have up to two devices connected simultaneously and switching from one to the other is seamless. I also really like how they work both wireless and there’s a wired option as well (they even include the cable). I’m really happy with the upgrade.

stormbeta3• 6 years ago

I have the QC35's, and the voice assistant integration is, as expected, gimmicky and not very useful.

However, you can change the button to control noise cancellation level instead, and that's actually very useful since "high" doesn't handle wind well when I'm outside, while "low" does.

noncoml5• 6 years ago

Ah.. QC35 I and QC35 II, the headphones that won't turn off, but Bose refuses to make it right for the users:

https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35...

Note, the "solution" is buy new headphones if yours are our out of warranty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be

ProfessorLayton• 6 years ago

Ah, I've recently discovered that the on/off switch on my QC35II is actually not a hardware off switch at all. My headphones refused to turn off once, which I believe was triggered by being connected to two devices at once, one of which was trying to use the mic.

The "solution" was to unpair everything and to make sure to only connect to one device at a time. I really wish the switch actually just disconnected the power.

Other than that they've been pretty solid so far.

mickelsen• 6 years ago

I have the same model, but mine does behave like an on/off button, being enough to solve that problem you had (no sound because some device other is paired) Maybe it's something about a firmware upgrade? I remember there was one in 2018 that enabled an auto turn-off feature past a certain time with no use. I didn't update mine with that or any of the newer ones, so if I forget to turn them off manually they just keep consuming battery.

itchynosedev• 6 years ago

A year or so ago I had an issue with my one year old pair of headphones (QC35 II). They wouldn't turn properly on anymore (light goes on, but no sound). Reached out to the support. They asked to do basic troubleshooting. After everything failed, they sent a free replacement. They did ask to send the faulty pair back, however. Can't complain about that.

stagas2• 6 years ago

And what about their planned obsolescence strategy like the right ear simultaneously[0] stop working on everybody's QC25s with no replacement or repair option?

[0] https://community.bose.com/t5/In-Ear-Headphones/Right-ear-st...

canada_dry2• 6 years ago

..."The right side stopped working in April 2018. I got them replaced and the operator gave me "one time only exception" to the replacement fee"...

So, for folks suggesting Apple et al follow Bose's lead, it's clear they all follow the same play book i.e. a design flaw isn't their problem the moment the warranty is up.

I'm someone who will escalate and put in the effort to be righted when a company does wrong, but it would sure be nice if companies didn't outright lie, coverup or have hidden warranties/"you're an exception" when they screw up!

rdudek• 6 years ago

I'm thinking about picking up the QC 35's series 2 or the Sony WH-1000MX3's. Any recommendations? Can either of those turn off the noise canceling tech? I'm not a big fan of noise canceling technologies, I'm just looking for a quality sounding wireless headset to pair with my iphone.

stagas2• 6 years ago

Definitely the Sony's, by far.

SlowRobotAhead11• 6 years ago

I owned Sonys. The make or break feature to me is the noise canceling, and the Bose 700 just murdered them, it wasn’t even a fair fight. I had a screaming baby in my arms with a tiny bit of music and could only feel the vibration of baby’s screams. The 700s are hands down industry best. I tried them all.

omegabravo• 6 years ago

you can control the QC35 ANC with the app. The QC35 II's allow you to do it with a button on the headphones.

I turn it off sometimes as it can be disorienting to me at times.

https://www.bose.com/en_us/support/article/set-the-action-bu...

quicklime• 6 years ago

If you care about privacy, you might not want that app installed on your phone. It's been covered on HN before, but the app sends information about what you're listening to back to Bose.

eyegor6• 6 years ago

They're similar, but I'd say the noise cancelation is a bit better on the sonys. I also prefer the tuning on the sonys, but that's a matter of taste. (I don't own a pair of qc35, but I did swap with a friend for a plane ride). I don't know about the qc35, but on mx3s you can turn on/off the nc features, or cup your hand over the speakers to temporarily pause them. They also have a pretty good bluetooth low energy implementation which makes them last more than 14 hours, but I haven't ever let them fully run down so I don't know the true battery life.

fyfy18• 6 years ago

I have a two year old (set of?) MDR-1000X (the previous model) and the battery is still working fine. I usually have them on for 6 hours a day - with NC as it comes on by default, and I forget to turn it off - and only charge them once a week.

chaps• 6 years ago

It's very easy to accidentally touch the controls on the Sony's and accidentally pause/skip your music. They were nice, but that was such a frustrating feature.

eyegor6• 6 years ago

Wow, I've only had the opposite experience. Having to do a gesture twice because it missed my first attempt. I've certainly never thought it was too sensitive. I wonder if there was a firmware update which tweaked that. I only got a pair in early-mid 2019 and updated the firmware immediately.

foobarbazetc2• 6 years ago

Sony. Not even close.

foobarbazetc2• 6 years ago

MX4’s are coming soon. Or were, before Covid-19.

teruakohatu2• 6 years ago

If you don't want noise cancelling the Sonys are very comfortable, usb-c charging Bluetooth headphones with average audio quality.

You can turn noise cancelling off and there are also a number of settings for the noise cancelling.

Overall they are great and I moved to Sony from Bose. But if I didn't want noise cancelling I would probably look elsewhere for better sounding headphones.

eyegor6• 6 years ago

I just reread your comment, and I think you should look at other options if you don't care about noise canceling. Pretty much all NC headphones sacrifice a lot to make the NC work well, so they don't sound fantastic. As for recommending general wireless closed back headphones, that depends a lot on what your tone preferences are. The pair I have that most of my non-headphone-geek friends prefer are the vmoda crossfades. Specifically I have the crossfade 1, but there have been a couple of newer versions since then which I haven't tried.

jiggawatts• 6 years ago

I got the WH-1000MX3 for travel. It makes the otherwise oppressive cabin noise of airplanes bearable. I've had other noise-cancelling headphones before, but none that were capable of making a long flight tolerable.

On a recent flight I only found out that there was some kid crying to whole way at the end of the flight when I took the headphones off.

But its sound quality in general is nothing like a good pair of headphones. I also have the Sennheiser HD-800 and it's a totally different league, but only in a quiet room. My perception of its quality improved when I moved to a quieter apartment with no road noise coming in from outside.

visarga• 6 years ago

I have both Sony WH-1000MX3 and the much cheaper Sony MDRXB950N1B, and I prefer the latter for it's rendering of bass sounds. MX3 has better noise canceling but listening to electronic music with heavy base on the 950's is so much more fulfilling, feels like being at a concert. Maybe I am just a bass freak.

willtim• 6 years ago

The Sony's have +5db of exaggerated bass that cannot be EQ'd out on the headphones when using LDAC. Without EQ, I find them completely unlistenable for jazz or classical music. I kept them as I only use them with one device (so EQ is practical) and the NC is very good.

joshvm2• 6 years ago

The WH-1000MX3 has a variety of noise cancelling modes (including off). You can set it in the app or you can have it automatically adjust the profile based on where it thinks you are. The profiles are things like transit, walking, etc. While you can turn of ANC with a button, you do need the app to adjust anything else.

JorgeGT• 6 years ago

As a researcher in acoustics (another field though) this post illustrates beautifully the difficulties of the field: how each of us feels different about sound (psychoacoustics), how even minute mechanical details have a noticeable impact on acoustic performance...

FWIW I can confirm that this post shows great expertise in acoustic engineering, from the focus on the customer interviews/fieldwork (it is still very difficult to predict through synthetic tests in the lab how actual human will rate sounds) to the paired acoustic tests (we suck at comparing more than two sounds, we need pairing like in the ophthalmologist), the use of a critical listener, etc.

gerardbeckerleg3• 6 years ago

I agree it is very thorough, what is really strange from my experience with the QC35 is that they haven’t found any problem. The noise cancellation in my earphones was working perfectly, performed the upgrade, and now I can hear the person next to me typing when I couldn’t before. 100% there is a problem with the firmware update no idea how they couldn’t find it with that amount of testing.

gerardbeckerleg3• 6 years ago

Doing a bit more digging, it looks like the report from Bose is testing the wrong issue. They tested 4.1.3 to 4.5.2 where as the issue is from 2.x.x and 3.x.x update to 4.5.2.

https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-...

matsemann• 6 years ago

Maybe the person got a new keyboard? Maybe you just didn't notice it before but now that you've started thinking about it it's impossible not to notice?

There can be a thousand factors, and these 20 objective tests are easier to trust than subjective listeners.

s_gourichon• 6 years ago

Interesting. The report says they tested airplane noise, which spreads on a wide spectrum of frequencies but is a continuous noise. A keyboard noise is very different : short bursts. Maybe there is a regression in that case, which the method in their report would not spot.

nickkell• 6 years ago

I started started hearing loud typing and realised I was using the headset's microphone!

gen220• 6 years ago

I’ve been on a tour of the Bose Mountain facilities in the last 5 years (knew somebody who worked there in the experimental electronics space), and I can confirm that, on the inside, they are absolutely meticulous with their acoustic engineering and testing, more than anything I’ve seen before. They really treat it like rocket science.

There were sound rooms built to simulate a variety of real world environments, complete with realistic RF interference. They could test other equipment alongside their own, to be confident that they were producing real value for their customers. They’re pretty secretive so I won’t go into more details out of respect, but it was very cool and definitely made me a loyal customer.

All that aside, like you said the psychoacoustics thing is very real, and knowing them, they’re probably working on it.

stormbeta3• 6 years ago

While this is great news for my QC 35's, the newer Bose 700's have me extremely worried for the future of their devices.

Anyone who puts non-tactile touch controls on _headphones_ shouldn't be allowed to design electronics interfaces ever again.

The QC35 had it right with physical controls.

SlowRobotAhead11• 6 years ago

I have the 700s, the important controls are buttons. The capacitive interface is for mute, vol up/down, and next song, it’s not my first choice but really it works fine.

This is a non-issue.

Edit: lol; my opinions from months of first hand everyday use are wrong, and should be echo chamber hidden by people who have never used the product.

Sargos• 6 years ago

The capacitive interface is for mute, vol up/down, and next song

As a user of bluetooth headphones I am really struggling to think of a button not on that list that is important. The only thing that's really coming to mind is pause but maybe that's what you mean by mute?

Those are literally the most essential buttons and by definition you are mostly going to be touching them when the headphones are on your head where you can't physically see the buttons. This is not a great experience.

asdfasgasdgasdg3• 6 years ago

What are the important controls on headphones if not volume and song skipping? Those are the ones I use the most.

stormbeta3• 6 years ago

Capacitive controls have zero place on any headphones, let alone ones as expensive as these. The fact that you're willing to live with it doesn't mean it's not still a terrible design.

And I consider all of those buttons to be pretty important - I use all of them regularly, including when I'm not right next to my phone.

I just hope the 700's are an aberration, and that Bose goes back to a more practical design next time.

anarazel2• 6 years ago

I find pause/play to be super unreliable. Triggers accidentally (even just a warm sweater sometimes is enough), and other times not at all.

Not really important, but standing around and tapping on my headphone to trying and failing to pause the podcast I'm listening to feels pretty idiotic.

Edit: Have them since early October

dvirsky• 6 years ago

Been using the 700 since they came out, I actually really like the touch interface. Skipping is a bit iffy but volume and pause work well, and it's very handy when I'm working out or doing the dishes, and I don't need to fiddle around with buttons.

zaidf• 6 years ago

I think QC 35s are better than 700s. The 700s are less portable (can’t fold and put it in my jacket) and contrary to how Bose positions it (that they’re more modern), they look more like call center headphones.

tkorri3• 6 years ago

The physical buttons was the exact reason why I bought a pair of QC 35 II's even though Sony WH-1000XM3's were available and Bose QC700 had just been introduced.

I own a pair of Monster iSport Freedom 2's which have a touch control for volume and skipping, and oh boy is touch control a bad idea on headphones. For example when wearing the headphones under a hood, while outside in the rain, it sometimes registers rain as a touch action, so your volume or song changes suddenly. Also the touch control accurancy isn't very stellar indoor either.

So based on my experience, I gladly take physical buttons over touch controls, since for me touch controls are more like a gimmick than good usability.

jiofih4• 6 years ago

Did you actually try the Sony’s? That (rain activating touch) doesn’t happen. You can’t take your experience with a completely different product as universal truth.

originalvichy• 6 years ago

As a person who lives in a cold country I got annoyed by the 1000XM3 touch controls pretty quickly. I am however happy to report that a year after the release you can update the firmware and disable touch controls.

DevoidSimo• 6 years ago

I'm not sure what those controls are like, but I've got some sennheiser PXC550s. They have a touch pad which is used for controls. All controls are either a tap on a wide area (the whole earpiece) or a swipe. This is both easy to do and intuitive. i.e. up/down for volume, foward/back for track selection. Done well I don't think not having a button is an issue.

anarazel2• 6 years ago

Anyone who puts non-tactile touch controls on _headphones_ shouldn't be allowed to design electronics interfaces ever again.

My QC35's died - probably not Bose's fault. Too old to be repaired, apparently. Got the 700's. And I seriously regret it. The fact that it's hard to get the "gestures" right is one thing. What's worse is that the controls trigger spuriously all the damn time.

They also semi-regularly just hang, make a somewhat high-pitched sound, and reboot. They regularly announce "bluetooth off", just after the announcement that a device disconnected. With multiple connected devices there's constant problems with only one of those being audible. Changes which.

josteink3• 6 years ago

the newer Bose 700's have me extremely worried for the future of their devices

As another negative anecdote I was gifted one, and simply had to return it.

The acoustic performance was really just underwhelming.

I went back to my Beterdynamic DT-770 headset at a third of the price, and it sounds immensely better. It’s a night and day difference.

jmiserez2• 6 years ago

That was also the case with the QC25/35. With a proper amp the DT-770s sound better than almost any NC bluetooth headphones, it's a different category. That said, I'd recommend you give the Sony WH-1000XM2/3 a listen. They're not perfect, but the sound is much closer to the DT-770.

macleginn• 6 years ago

I switched from QC 25 to DT-770 recently for similar reasons. DT-770 are also immensely more comfortable.

joshvm2• 6 years ago

Yep, I have the Sony WH-1000XM3s. They're fantastic headphones - really impressive given how awful the ANC was on a previous set of Sony headphones I had (MDR-ZX770BN).

However, the touch interface is bad. Swiping up/down is often confused for left/right, which is probably me swiping the wrong way, but it's not a natural motion. If I take the headphones off and put them around my neck, my chin often activates the headphones by mistake.

That said, I picked them up at an airport. I wore them with a mask on a 10 hour flight and I've never slept so well on a plane. That alone was worth the price and I can suffer the touch controls for now.

jrockway• 6 years ago

I also have those headphones and I was super weirded out by the touch controls initially, but have found in practice that they are great. I think this is the one time ever that touch controls are better than physical buttons, in fact.

andreareina• 6 years ago

Physical controls are exactly why I went with my current pair of headphones over the other ones available. It meant giving up active noise cancellation, but fortunately the passive reduction is enough for my purposes.

jiofih4• 6 years ago

The Sony WH has touch controls and they work quite well.

m4633• 6 years ago

I had an older Dell monitor with those touch-sensitive buttons and the one I recently bought has buttons.

So much more wonderful.

That said, Dell's button user interface sucks. The "user configurable buttons" revert at inopportune times. I set button 1 to select DP and button 2 to select HDMI. When I'm shutting down the HDMI system and the DP system is asleep, I frequently find myself in a scroll-up-down menu selecting an input.

What I think is that at hardware manufacturers the culture favors hardware design (think no-moving-parts buttons). Or maybe the good UI people are working at companies or departments where there is plenty of work to do, like frequent app redesign.

snailerz• 6 years ago

They are showing so much respect and care for their customers that is almost unbelievable.

Kudos to their will to analyze and also document about a single problem so thoroughly.

I never bought a Bose product before, but reading this honestly makes me think about it...

If any company would cost a premium for being as careful as they are, I would definitely pay for it.

KingFelix• 6 years ago

They are pretty amazing. I got a pair from the Amazon re:mars conference. I would have never spent that amount of money on headphones, must have for travels. So good

noncoml5• 6 years ago

I disagree. The great customer support is just PR and an image they managed to create. When it comes down to costing them money to do the right thing, they don't.

The headphones won't turn off, but Bose refuses to make it right for the users:

https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/QC-35...

Note, the "solution" is buy new headphones if yours are our out of warranty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bugTnRbnhQ&feature=youtu.be

Edit: Wow, downvoted to -1 :/

caseysoftware• 6 years ago

Your Bose community link is broken. Maybe add the correct one?

trog• 6 years ago

Bought my partner a pair of these (super expensive) headphones as an Xmas present and her experience is a little similar. Battery life on hers plummeted after about 18 months to the point where if they're fully charged at night, by the morning with no use they're at 20% or less.

Was super unimpressed with Bose support, both in store and online - they offered to wind back the firmware for us, or our other option was buy a new pair.

It's interesting reading about this not-turning-off bug as maybe something like that is happening which is killing the battery overnight.

wozniacki• 6 years ago

What has your experience been with the multipoint feature of Bose QC35 IIs? I'll make do with above average noise cancellation; doesn't have to be top shelf in that aspect. I mainly want multipoint[1] and Bose I've been told does it absolutely seamlessly more so than the Jabras, Sennheisers etc.

[1]

What is Bluetooth multipoint, and why isn’t it more popular?

https://www.soundguys.com/bluetooth-multipoint-explained-286...

in_cahoots• 6 years ago

I managed to get a free replacement and upgrade to QC II for my out-of-warranty headphones just by asking nicely a second time after the first offer of a discount. There’s a lengthy thread on their forums posting the phone number you need to call.

innagadadavida• 6 years ago

Have the same issue with mine and many times the battery would've discharged when I need it the most. Horrible switch design. Someone on their forums posted how you can fix it:

So I removed the old switch slider and spring, used 96% ethyl alcohol to clean the bottom part of the switch left on the PCB (filled it with alcohol, let soak for a few minutes, then used tiny cotton wool balls and a pair of pointy tweezers to clean the contacts, then dried it off using compressed air).

smilekzs• 6 years ago

is just PR

I would not dismiss the tremendous engineering + coordination effort required to pull this off as "just" PR.

Thorrez• 6 years ago

What would be the right thing in this case?

foobar1962• 6 years ago

I'm not going to down-vote your post, but I do disagree utterly. The linked article from Bose blew my mind on how far they are willing to go for customer support.

nl• 6 years ago

When it comes down to costing them money to do the right thing, they don't.

The investigation outlined in this would have cost a lot of money.

The headphones won't turn off, but Bose refuses to make it right for the users

There are plenty of countries (outside the US) with powerful enough consumer protection agencies to force Apple to change it's practices (eg, the ACCC in Australia[1][2]). If this really is a widespread manufacturing fault we'd see them forced to act elsewhere.

[1] https://www.accc.gov.au/public-registers/undertakings-regist...

[2] https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/apple-australia-gives-...

john_alan• 6 years ago

I've had a great experience with Bose. The only premium product I bought were the QC35s, but they replaced mined even after 2 years (in EU) due to a sound issue.

I'm impressed with this reach out, something Apple are unlikely to do (even though I use their prem products)

adelpozo• 6 years ago

I also had a great experience with Bose costumer service a while ago. I had them for more than one year. The audio was cutting off in one of the headphones. I emailed them about the issue and I got a new pair mailed to me right away. No fuss. I didn’t have to mail mine first. They got a customer for life with me.

poglet• 6 years ago

Hi,

I had the same problem as you and was very disappointed. Up until this problem I was very happy with the QC35, which I have used for hundreds of hours.

I followed the below YouTube video a few weeks ago, and the problem has not returned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3qHSaWi4X8

The process took about 20-30 minutes and was relativity easy, however some parts are quiet small and it took a few tries to get them into the correct position.

The problem is the switch becomes loose and touches multiple contacts, making the headphones turn back on. Don't bother with all the other troubleshooting advice Bose has told people to do (updates, resets, pair & unpair etc), the problem is a physical problem with the switch.

hugofloss• 6 years ago

I’m sorry you had a bad experience, but mine was fantastic. When I had problems with my pair of Bose headphones they immediately sent new ones, even out of warranty.

t-writescode2• 6 years ago

Isn’t this a different topic than a change in their noise cancelling properties? I thought that’s what this article is about.

chenglou• 6 years ago

I’ve had nothing but positive customer experiences from Bose (5 times, from 2-3 different shops). I’ve made a note to voice this feedback the last time they served me. Now I did =)

I no longer use the earphones, but I can vouch for them.

Mandatum• 6 years ago

I bought 2x QC30's (in-ear), first and second generation.

First I had to replace because it stopped charging after 10 months. I used them single every day, and I loved them. They were my first pair of active noise cancelling anything, and they completely changed my anxiety levels at work.

I remember thinking to myself 2 days after sending them back to Bose to be looked at, that I was so much more stressed without them.

I was sent a refurbished pair with new earplugs in the box 5 days later. This is almost unheard of in Australia.

That pair has been going strong for the past year, they get used when I travel long-haul - I carry them as backup.

My second pair I bought because my workplace let me expense up to $250 on headphones, they had some damage which Bose was kind enough to offer replacement for free, but now that COVID hit I've been unable to send them in for replacement. Luckily I have my backup!

dannyw2• 6 years ago

They released a product on Kickstarter that had various connection issues and batteries. They tried to fix it, but when it appeared mechanical instead of software, they posted a honest response, offered and encouraged everyone a full refund.

dartdartdart4• 6 years ago

Nah they hold out on innovation until it's too late. They've had the NC crown for so long they fell complacent and Sony took their crown easily. Sony's XM3 is so, so far ahead. Just compare the feature sets and you'll see that Sony fits more for less (albeit the mic is had and USB c input is missing).

tillcarlos• 6 years ago

A year after the Sonys came out they made the NCH 700, which beat the sonys in microphone performance.

I could even chew or wash my hands or sit in a noisy cafe without the other people in the call hearing it.

The audio quality might be better with the Sonys, but at least they answered to the Sonys in a timely way. I had no bad experience with those yet and used them for almost a year already. No idea about customer support.

I know this thread is about the QC model, but I wanted to throw this in here. IMHO bose is not behind at all.

riazrizvi• 6 years ago

I bought my first pair of QC 20’s in 2015, and experienced mechanical failures over the years as you might expect. They replaced the first two pairs free. Then they let me buy the next two at cost. Considering I use them about 70 hours a week every week, I think their customer service has been absolutely fantastic. I’m waiting for their in-ear noise-cancelling wireless earpods that are due out this year. I don’t care how much they cost.

verelo• 6 years ago

Wow. I bought mine back in 2009ish, they survived till around 2014 after near daily use. I wanted Bluetooth so i upgraded to the qc35 and they’re my current pair. I am super brand loyal now, but i will admit my AirPods are taking a lot of my ear time.

pimeys6• 6 years ago

I find that alarming you need to get new headphones so often. I've used my boses while commuting for over a year now with no trouble luckily, but this doesn't sound good.

My office headphones have always been Beyerdynamics. I've owned a pair of dt880s and now dt1770 pros and used them almost daily. The 880 I bought in 2003 and 1770 in 2016. Both work with no trouble and deliver perfect sound. I expect them to last for a few more decades...

barrkel• 6 years ago

Huh. I bought my Sennheiser PXC 450 nearly 15 years ago, and used it daily, as well as on regular transatlantic flights, for about 8 years and I only had to replace batteries and ear cushions and one cable, never the whole thing. That's a crazy rate of device replacement.

ornornor6• 6 years ago

I use them about 70 hours a week every week

Do you work too much, or do you only ever take them off to shower and sleep?

pdpi• 6 years ago

I had two sets of QC20i break on me in the exact same way (the glue on one of the earbuds failed and the earbud just split open). First was in warranty and they replaced it no questions asked. Second was just out of warranty and they wanted £150 for a replacement set.

I'm not paying £150 for something that's failed twice in the exact same way, so I bought some Shure monitors instead. The passive reduction on these is as good as, maybe better than, the active cancellation of the Boses, and sound quality is way better.

ss3000• 6 years ago

I too swear by my Shures. I've tried quite a few NC headphones/earphones over the years but they've all had issues with distortion, wind noises, etc to some degree, whereas my Shures can passively cut out just as much noise as the best of them while never introducing weird artifacts that break immersion and take me out of the music.

I just wish they'd release a fully wireless version with the same comfort and fit (not the replacement cable+dongle thing they currently have).

m1sta_• 6 years ago

I've owned a number of Bose products and have found every one to be void of disappointment. Great company.

basejumping2• 6 years ago

I have the QC35 and besides the noise cancelling they are crap. The bluetooth drops off when I'm sometimes only 8m away, the battery life is low, but the most annoying thing for me is the multi devices connectivity. They will connect to both my iphone and mac at the same time, but never in the way I intended to. A lot of times I need to turn off the bluetooth on the iphone, or turn the phones on and off several times, or desperately try to connect/disconnect the phones to the mac, do this a few times a day and see how it feels. There is no option on the phones to switch between devices, or even to stop multi connectivity, the phones know better and will connect to the device which is 'closest'. Good luck when you sit at the desk with the laptop and the phone on it. The only way is to use the Bose supplied app, which is full of dark UX patterns. Every time it asks me to create a Bose account, to connect my other social accounts, etc. And it doesn't even solve anything, do I really need to open my iphone and open the Bose app to turn off a connected device every time I start the headphones?

By comparison my Beats solo are much better, for range battery and connectivity, but they don't have noise cancelling.

liendolucas• 6 years ago

I have the QC35 and besides the noise cancelling they are crap. This is the main reason why I have never bought a Bose product before (and probably never will). I've heard this assertion way too many times about Bose headphones, that besides noise cancelling they are average (if not worse) headphones overall and of course way too overpriced. I've switched to ear monitors and to be honest that turns out to be a good enough noise cancelling solution at least for me (provided that you get a good fit). I tend to just use wired headphones as you get rid of the potential issues that you mention: bluetooth and battery. Hope that good headphones companies keep manufacturing wired headphones in 10, 20 or 50 years time but I see that hard as laptops and phones are slowly deprecating the beloved jack connector.

floriferous• 6 years ago

I have the exact same experience, switched to airpods for my phone, and bose for my computer.

Their Bluetooth setup is abysmal ! Hate using these QC 35 for that reason.

beeforpork• 6 years ago

Except that I never payed any attention to bluetooth range, it's the opposite experience here.

I have the QC35-II and never had problems, neither with battery life nor with bluetooth. In fact, given that it seems like no device ever gets bluetooth protocol right, it surprised me that the headphones do exactly what I want: connect to two devices at once (laptop and phone). So I can play music on the laptop and when someone calls, the headphones seamlessly switch to the phone, and when I hang up, they switch back to the music from the laptop. Also reconnecting works without anything to complain about. I am also switching back and forth between two locations, meaning two laptops and two phones, and the only thing that is mildly annoying is that when switching the desk, it takes a little longer to reconnect to the other set of devices again. But it does work.

What would be cool is three devices served at once (laptop, land line phone, mobile phone).

I am not using the Bose app at all.

But what is annoying is that they don't charge and work at the same time. Frankly, I was pissed when I found that out. WTF, there are integrated USB charger/voltage regulator circuits readily available that do that for you. Probably it's due to heat dissipation problems as always so they might have artifically disabled this to avoid at all cost headphones bursting into flames on people's heads.

jnurmine• 6 years ago

Strange, I've used QC35 II so far with three different phones and one tablet, all Android, no problems whatsoever with Bluetooth. Turn on BT in the device, click the BT button on the headset to cycle the device. That's basically it.

EDIT: I turn off BT in all but one device!

I don't use the Bose app for anything. The only time was to update the firmware and re-enable the noise cancellation button, which somehow vanished.

As for range one can't expect much more with Bluetooth, especially indoors.

If you meant QC35 II and not QC35, could your issue be something in the Mac and/or iPhone and not the headphones?

throwaway_pdp09• 6 years ago

First thing I do with a hagiography like this is look at the poster's profile. 1 comment ever, and voted to the top.

blub• 6 years ago

This is the same company that was spying on what their customers are listening to. Their headphones (I think it was the NC ones) require an app for configuration and that was uploading track names to their servers.

Hnrobert42• 6 years ago

You can delete the app after doing firmware upgrades. Of course, the monitoring should have been opt in, but at least it is not required.

abcd_f• 6 years ago

On one hand we have this.

On the other hand we have genuine Bose replacement cushions that start to flake out not two years after very light use. Not aftermarket, but their own ridiculously expensive units bought directly from them. I have no explanation for this except for it being due to planned obsolescence practices. So they can publish as many reports (that tested a whooping 10 returned units!), but it doesn't undo the ill will created by their products falling apart on schedule. Caveat emptor and all that.

rmoriz• 6 years ago

I can confirm this. Looks like an ingredient of the plastic/fake leather part is deteriorating pretty much exactly at the 2 years mark. Mine was idling one year after some months of use and then started to fell apart, the prior QC15 was then heavily used when its ear pads started to crisp after 2 years.

snowwolf• 6 years ago

It cost me £25 for replacement cushions which they fitted for me in store. https://www.bose.co.uk/en_gb/products/headphones/headphone_a...

Which I had to replace after 2 years of weekday daily use of 3-4 hours a day.

I’m not sure I class that as ridiculously expensive.

devy• 6 years ago

I have owned 3 pairs Boss QC noise-cancellation headphones (QC15, QC25 and QC35). While they are generally considered to be a reputable brand, and their software/firmware might be the best, their hardware design is NOT.

I noticed that their QC15/25 has a major flaws on the battery compartment design cause its wiring prone to wire fatigue and as a result it will inevitably end up with a broken side. This is very well known in the community.[1][2][3]

And after warranty expires(usually 1-2 years), Boss charges you $100 for a refurbished replacement (required that you sent your broken headphone back to Boss before you get your replacement) instead of just fixing yours (which should be much cheaper). Highway robbery!

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u2GBBZbAyQ

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlb094awkoo

[3] https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/10706/How+to+fix+power+t...

lxe• 6 years ago

The fact that they reintroduced the ability to downgrade the firmware is very refreshing. Hope more companies will follow suit.

ojagodzinski• 6 years ago

only to one specific version. This is not what community was hoping for.

jiofih4• 6 years ago

Why would you want to downgrade to a different version now that it’s clear there is no difference in NC?

motohagiography• 6 years ago

Product management master class right there.

dahdum• 6 years ago

Maybe I’m unlucky, but even keeping my QC25s in the case when not wearing them, I had two fail due to internal hardware issues just past warranty. Support was a joke. I’d have felt like a fool the next time so I switched to Sony’s line, zero issues in the last 4 years and I’ve traveled twice as much.

spike021• 6 years ago

I was fortunate enough to get an expensed pair of QC 35 I's at a previous job. This was a little over 3 years ago now. Never had any of the described issues. Even now they feel and sound great. Battery life may be starting to degrade, which is disappointing since I don't believe there's a way to replace it myself, and Bose probably doesn't offer any service to do it either.

lstamour3• 6 years ago

I still have brand loyalty to Bose after almost a decade of trade-ins at a discounted price every 2.5 years or so. It’s too bad that around 2017 they stopped the trade-in program. The old QC 15s still had one of the nicest “fits” for me, and the 25s were pretty good too. But I wouldn’t want to have to keep swapping out AAA batteries or having to carry batteries with me in the case. I did like the old case design better than the new one, seemed flatter somehow. But the 35s going Bluetooth was a game changer for me, especially in connecting two devices at a time. Only thing missing is a USB C port so I don’t have to worry about plugging it in the wrong way to charge at night...

Marsymars• 6 years ago

I exclusively use the QC25 at my office desk, and much prefer swapping AAA batteries over having a lithium battery that where the replacement isn't manufacturer-supported.

ncmncm4• 6 years ago

This strikes me as a terrible history. I would never go back after such experience.

eyegor6• 6 years ago

If you're on hn, you might not be opposed to replacing the battery yourself. Here's a teardown that exposes it [0]. It may be difficult to source a replacement battery, I would check aliexpress/ebay (usually better than mouser/digikey for these). At minimum, you would need some tiny screwdrivers and a soldering iron (battery wires soldered directly to board).

[0] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Bose+QuietComfort+35+PARTIAL...

awaythrower2• 6 years ago

It requires finding a supplier who has the exact or comparable part. Joe's has them although they're used but they do have long lives.

awaythrower2• 6 years ago

Your assumption is wrong. You can buy replacement batteries that are pulled from good products, unfortunately there are no new parts.

https://www.joesge.com/products/bose-quietcomfort-qc35-li-io...

cityzen2• 6 years ago

Before people start fawning over Bose's handling of this, don't forget they're just like every other data mining company: https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-pro...

canada_dry2• 6 years ago

Good point. And, people who care about privacy shouldn't be too excited about having built-in Siri/Google/Alexa integration either.

cityzen2• 6 years ago

Fortunately costco had/has the old version before they sold their souls to Bezos. Why people want Amazon listening to anything is beyond me.

avalys• 6 years ago

So what? How does this harm me?

rkagerer• 6 years ago

The degree of investigation is impressive and I commend Bose on this!

However, it does sound like they had a number of issues or regressions in prior versions of the firmware (eg. an update made some units connect to the wrong Bluetooth profile). I hope this demonstrates business reasons why it's important to get your product code right every release. Had they maintained a better reputation for competent product updates, it's unlikely user skepticism would have ballooned this into such a big deal.

totalZero• 6 years ago

I have purchased five or six different pairs of Bose noise-cancelling headphones, but I will never buy another product from them again until they allow customers to revert firmware.

I updated the firmware on my QC35s a couple of years ago, and the ANC got worse. Like, maybe 6 decibels or so worse, with strange white noise. I wrote to them explaining the problem and asked how to revert firmware, and they said it wasn't permitted and instructed me to "turn the device off and on" or something like that as a way to pretend to address the issue and make me go away.

I have only owned two products whose manufacturers refused to solve the problem when a new release of software or firmware ruined the user experience. The first was my Google Nexus 6P that boot-looped itself to death upon startup after an Android upgrade, and the second was my pair of QC35s.

Since then, I don't trust Bose's updates and refuse to update any of my other devices made by them.

tambre• 6 years ago

until they allow customers to revert firmware.

In this post they're adding an option to do this. Albeit only to a single earlier firmware.

tiew9Vii• 6 years ago

Bose have had a few bad software updates historically. My sound bar lost its bass in an early update which they eventually resolved, also they made some promises about airplay 2 which never happened on some devices. Privacy policy + devices phoning home is questionable.

QC35’s are a major seller for them so it’s good to see the effort going in to investigating the issue. Hopefully the effort gone in to investigating carries through to better software in general so it’s easy for them to verify what’s changed and also better release procedures again so they can reduce the post release debugging they had to do here.

herecomestracer• 6 years ago

Impressive report, however their customer support is terrible for such premium products. Have bought 3 sets of headphones over the last 6 years (2xQC25 and 1xQC35).

Each pair of headphones starts to have audio issues right after the 2 year mark, usually resulting in the total loss of audio in one ear, and their support channels will only advise you to buy a new pair.

Have switched to the competitor - Sony WH-1000XM3. So far so good.

But really disappointed by the quality and longevity of Bose's premium products.

Won't buy again, and for such a serious issue to take this much effort for Bose to allow firmware downgrades just confirms that for me.

asd4• 6 years ago

I switched from Bose to Sony and haven't looked back. The capacitive controls on the headphones are crap but I never really use them so it's not a big issue for me. Rock solid for music and getting work done.

hobs2• 6 years ago

Their soundsports on the other hand are just bad at connecting to a bluetooth device and staying in sync at >1.5m distance.

I've tried it with 4 different phones now, and they just cut out every time.

Bose has been kind enough to exchange several pairs at no cost and hassle, but its not a problem with one of them, its all of them

m3h• 6 years ago

Same here. Suffering with Soundsport Free since I got them. They frequently disconnect even when I'm near my phone. Also, the audio/video lag issue is a total deal breaker. Bose seems to be the only one who has such issues.

hobs2• 6 years ago

For what its worth I have also seen the same behavior with Jabra wireless headphones, they might use the same chip/stack under the hood though.

kevindong• 6 years ago

For what it's worth, several of Bose's customers are continuing to refuse to believe this report's conclusion (in several instances, in an aggressively rude/accusatory way).

https://community.bose.com/t5/Around-On-Ear-Headphones/Bose-...

markdown3• 6 years ago

Unrelated to this, the Bose aviation headset has been sold out and unavailable in most of the world for about a year now.

phonon• 6 years ago

Which model....? Looks okay to me

https://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/aviation-headsets/bose-avi...

markdown3• 6 years ago

Holy cow, they're back! I just checked stores in my part of the world. The proflight has been out for ages, both online and in stores all over Australia, New Zealand, and Singapore. I've been searching since early last year.

ncmncm4• 6 years ago

All the pro pilots I know use Sennheisers, and nothing but Sennheisers, hands down.

markdown3• 6 years ago

All the pro pilots I know use Bose, and nothing but Bose, hands down.

dannyw2• 6 years ago

Has anyone personally encountered this problem? Do you believe in this report? Do you think something is missing?

For me, I quite like Bose products because their bluetooth pairing and connectivity seem to be significantly better than what I can get from cheaper brands like Taotronics, etc. I have always found products to be well built, even for full-plastic devices that are subject to more wear and tear than they deserve.

medion• 6 years ago

Yes I have - and I had no idea about the issue or controversy until after the update.

I was in bed one night playing with the Bose app on my iPhone. It prompted me to do a Firmware update - I use these headphones A LOT - at the time I was wearing them for 6-8 hours a day for weeks on end and was very 'in tune' to their abilities.

It was very quiet in bed, I'd been wearing them while reading a book for an hour before - I did the firmware upgrade and immediately noticed a difference when they rebooted. I was very confused and started playing with settings etc. I then Googled the issue and realised how widespread it was...

The report linked is super interesting, but, I trust my own ears as a musician and I know something changed with the headphones 100%.

cgearhart• 6 years ago

I don’t know if it was _this_ problem, but I had an issue after firmware update this week. I have had the QC35 II headphones since 2017, and I love them. I also never update software unless something is broken—I don’t care about new features, I just want things to keep working. This past week I had to launch the Bose app to reconnect my phone to the QC35’s and it suggested a firmware update. I very rarely launch the app, so I let it proceed. They became _completely_ unusable after the update. The audio quality was awful, and noise cancelling virtually disappeared.

I was able to determine that the problem was the QC35 microphone was stuck “on”, so it was attenuating the audio and amplifying ambient noise. I’ve had similar problems before with other Bluetooth devices and suspected that the firmware change caused them to identify or connect to the wrong Bluetooth device profile.

Fortunately, restarting my phone resolved the problem. I don’t know why that worked, and I don’t know whether it was the phones fault or the headphones fault. It just affirmed my reasons for avoiding software updates.

wingerlang• 6 years ago

I've had this issue (and posted about it with several people chiming in). I tend to toggle manually the input back to the macbook and it usually works. Kinda annoying though.

ripvanwinkle• 6 years ago

For what its worth my QC35 right headset stopped working just a month past the 12 month warranty and I had no luck getting the issue redressed.

That's a rather early failure for ~350$ of hardware.

locusofself• 6 years ago

I love my QC35 headphones except one thing- the bluetooth range is very small, like 20 feet? AirPods go much farther from my phone/laptop without breaking up. If I just cup my hands over the outside of the right headphone, the signal cuts out. Or if I hold my phone in my left hand while walking, it cuts out some times. Sounds great as long as my phone is close enough though.

aortega• 6 years ago

I have a QC 35, and I have experienced some of the degrading of sound isolation. After some research I discovered than the pads account for much of it, and they degrade rather quickly, but not faster than any other headphone and I have very expensive headphones. My Sennheiser 650 is >400 usd and is on his third pair of pads.

The QC35 is so great that I developed ear problems for using them too much. So be careful with that.

hellofunk• 6 years ago

What kind of ear problems? That could refer to any of several very different problems.

Fiahil• 6 years ago

I had to replace the ear cushion 6 month ago, and I couldn't find Bose's original replacement parts. I noticed the ANR perfs dropped a little bit after the replacement - something similar to what they described in the article.

Is Bose selling original ear cushions somewhere ?

mav3rick• 6 years ago

They sell it on their website (in the US). You can also call them to place an order .

ornornor6• 6 years ago

This is amazing! It's really nice to see how much Bose cares. Contrast that with Apple for instance: they are both selling products on which they emphasize quality and craftsmanship at above market prices. Yet Apple never ever acknowledges QA issues until a few years after the product is out, and does all it can to pretend everything is fine. Really impressed by Bose. I would seriously consider purchasing their headphones if active noise cancellation didn't make me feel like my nose is all congested and didn't give me a headache.

Lammy• 6 years ago

"An important piece of feedback we’ve received from the community during this discussion is that you want the ability to downgrade the firmware on your Bose QC35 product. Today, we’re re-introducing the ability to downgrade firmware QC35 II to 4.3.6 and QC35 series 1 to 2.5.5 via the Bose BTU site for a limited time."

A limited time? Why? How limited?

hnarn2• 6 years ago

A better question is why they are letting customers do this at all since the whole article proves that there is no point in downgrading. It seems to only add additional confusion if you ask me, and plays in the hands of customers who claim that there's something wrong with the software even now that Bose has proven beyond all doubt that there is not.

gilgoomesh• 6 years ago

My guess: loud, obnoxious, forum participants who won't stop brigading about it. Providing the downgrade – while technologically pointless – will rob those forum participants of their bluster (although they'll probably claim the downgrade is a lie or some other conspiracy).

e402• 6 years ago

Also, I'm a little confused why I have 3.0.3 firmware on my QC35's and it says there is no update. I'm happy to stay on 3.0.3, since it's works for me, but it's odd. Used the app not the BTU site to check.

jopsen• 6 years ago

I noticed other threads complained about lack of CHANGELOG for firmware updates.

I don't know what they have that they think is so secret, that thry can't tell us what bugs were fixed.

As an engineer I dislike this lack of transparency.

On the other hand these headphones mostly just work, apart from a few annoyance with reconnect time, etc.

snvzz• 6 years ago

Full disclosure: My primary set is Sennheiser HD600, which I use a lot and love. Excellent sound objectively and subjectively. Worth every cent, despite being available since 1997. They benefit a lot from a headphone amp but still do a decent job without. They are made to last, and should an accident ever break a piece, all parts are replaceable individually without the need for tools. I've had them for several years and they're as good as new.

I have tested QC35 before, on a loan from a coworker. The FR is very good, but the distortion is horrendous. Measurements made on the set confirm by reviewers do confirm my impressions were spot on. Apparently the reason the FR is good is because they have a builtin DSP doing EQ.

When I heard the price, for such bad sounding headphones, I thought about them as a scam. Later, I learned they don't just distort a lot, but are also not made to last. Brand loyalty is high, and the money BOSE spends in marketing plays no small role on this. BOSE devices are expensive and those who buy them get associate the price with quality. When they break, they just buy BOSE again.

ProZsolt• 6 years ago

I own a Sennheiser HD600 and a Bose QC25. They don't race in the same league. The HD600 has better sound quality hands down and I try to use it whenever I can. Where the QC25 shines is the noise canceling. I fly a lot and during a transatlantic flight, Bose is a godsend. It blocks out the engine noise very effectively. I can listen to music, podcasts, videos without cranking up the volume to max. Sometimes I use it in the office to block out office noises. Every other situation the HD600 is better.

pimeys6• 6 years ago

From the comments I see the QC35 is not very durable pair of headphones. I would understand if the price tag would be under 100 euros, but the QC35's are quite expensive. And if they last only a couple of years, I wouldn't count that progress at all!

There are great headphone manufacturers, such as Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, Focal and Grado, who make excellent studio level headphones that can easily last for decades in use, delivering that beautiful sound and feeling comfortable in daily office use.

I think the biggest problem is having Bluetooth in your headphones, which then requires a battery that is not easily replaced, and requires software and technology that either has bugs or degrades in a faster manner. I'd suggest while sitting in front of your computer, to use a corded pair of quality headphones and keep using them for years to come. Less waste, less money spent, better sound.

I've had Beyerdynamic's dt-880 model since 2003. I could still use them in the office, but them being open I replaced them with the dt-1770 pro model to not annoy my colleagues that much. Brought the 880's home and now with the lockdowns I'm again using them daily while writing software. Just replace the ear pads every five years, clean the drivers with pressurized air and you're ready to go.

qppo• 6 years ago

The 880s aren't wireless, active noise cancelling cans and aren't relevant in this context.

The brands you list have fine build quality, classic headphones based on the same physics and materials dating back about 50 years. They sound great, but they're not particularly novel, nor are they the same kind of product that is discussed here.

pimeys6• 6 years ago

Exactly! But the 1770 pro blocks enough noise to be used in a noisy studio and office space. No need for active noise cancellation or software to get a perfect bubble for your own thoughts.

What I tried to say here is that maybe we're not witnessing progress with headphones such as the QC35. That maybe buying an expensive pair of headphones that needs to be replaced in every few years and which provide a subpar audio quality is not really that great.

I understand the noise cancellation aspect in certain settings though. I own a pair of QC35's only for commuting. They work great for that, and the mediocre sound quality doesn't really bother me when I'm on the go. But the more I'm using them the more I'm getting worried are they going to be waste soon and if so, should I buy a new pair to replace them.

josteink3• 6 years ago

The 880s aren't wireless, active noise cancelling cans and aren't relevant in this context.

Of course they are.

If they provide a substantially better listening experience, at a lower cost and with passive noise-damping and less use of technology prone to failure, that makes them 110% relevant to the discussion at hand.

okasaki• 6 years ago

I had Grado headphones and while the sound quality was good, they failed very quickly in several ways (first one speaker stopped working, then the foam earcup fell off, then they just fell apart). The worst built headphones I've ever used, probably worse than the cheapest headphones you can buy.

pimeys6• 6 years ago

Let me take Grado off the list then. The Beyers and Sennheisers, at least the studio models are very durable.

jjayjay• 6 years ago

Did you question those people what their lifestyle is like. Does it correlate to why their headphones broke so easily?

I use them in the office and on flights only. The only thing I did was replace the foam cups in 2019 due to [expected] wear. No problems with them at all ever. I've had mine since 2016.

Same story for a colleague I've known for 8 years.

pimeys6• 6 years ago

I'll come here in 30 years to tell are the Boses still working.

mritun• 6 years ago

I had QC15 for over 7 years and QC35m2 now over 3. Both used and abused because I don’t really care about the case. Never broke anything in them.

Eventually lost the QC15 and upgraded to QC35 - a decision I never regretted even though I fly way less now and use $600 audiophile headphones. Fantastic headphone - research the analytical tests, the QC has almost flat response and the noise cancellation makes it very pleasing to listen to. YMMV.

jacquesm• 6 years ago

Has there been any effort at making an open source version of these noise cancelling headphones? It would seem to make for a pretty neat project.

knorker2• 6 years ago

We are exploring options to allow you to modify how [self voice] works via the Bose Connect app

Yes, please! Shut that fucking thing OFF. The only time I use the cable is because it doesn't have this terrible feature.

Especially when I connect to something like an amateur radio there's zero reason to ruin the sound by mistaking listening to amateur radio as some sort of "call".

jiofih4• 6 years ago

Wait, isn’t that feature only activated when you join a phone call? Why would it be activated for “amateur radio”?

knorker2• 6 years ago

I don't know. Maybe the radios are using the "phone call" feature to relay the audio. Maybe they have to, in order for the mic to work if you transmit, without delay.

I've not tried transmitting, because listening is so bad, thanks to this feature.

kim02• 6 years ago

While we're at it, any recommendations for having phone calls in noisy environments?

kim02• 6 years ago

Preferably true wireless ones

jjoonathan3• 6 years ago

SelfVoice is the problem.

In several conversations with customers, there was some confusion about noise cancellation function during a phone call or other Bluetooth HFP connection.

Yeah, because having multiple bluetooth profiles, one of which has good cancellation and one of which doesn't due to SelfVoice is disastrous UX.

Anything that perturbs the bluetooth settings on sound-producing devices and switches the default connected endpoint is going to trigger a severe degradation of the headphones' noise cancellation and noise floor. There is no light, or button, or obvious cue to indicate that the device is in a special state. Fixing the problem requires understanding this weird, hidden behavior (strike one) and dealing with bluetooth settings (strike two) on a device that isn't the headphone (strike three).

I am very happy to hear that they are doing something about it, because Windows has recently started clearing my repeated efforts to disable the SelfVoice endpoint. Even though I understand the problem completely (which is always the biggest hurdle) dealing with it has recently become a severe enough hassle that I've been considering ditching the Bose on account of it.

IceDane• 6 years ago

I bought the QC35-IIs through my works tech budget and was very disappointed to find out how they worked wrt. there being two different voice profiles, where one profile uses this selfvoice thing and has no ANC. This is particularly shite when trying to use it to play games while talking to friends on discord.

Am I understanding you correctly that it's possible to somehow disable this feature or something? If so, can you share?

jjoonathan3• 6 years ago

Yeah. Navigate to: Windows Key search > "Sound Settings" > Output > Manage Sound Devices

The "Manage sound devices" panel should show a list of "Output devices" and a list of "Input devices." Click on one to disclose a Test button and a Disable button. You should see your headphones show up twice in the "Output devices" menu. Testing one of them will result in a clean sound, the other will result in shit sound (due to SelfVoice). Press "Disable" on the one with shit sound.

Then do it again next time Windows Update runs and clears your user settings, and again, and again, because apparently clearing settings to default is something that Windows Update does now (I've seen it in other places too).

zneveu• 6 years ago

Note: this isn't just a Bose thing. Bluetooth has separate profiles built in for phone calls/two way audio and one way audio. Because of bandwidth limitations, quality is essentially cut in half while using two way audio. While self-voice can add back some external noise, the bulk of the audio quality loss is built into the Bluetooth spec.

nvarsj• 6 years ago

Audio "issues" are incredibly subjective. The placebo effect is so strong with audio, which has led to an entire industry of snake oil and hyper subjective audio comments (like many seen in the replies here). Unless you blind A/B test, it is very hard to discern audio differences unless you have been professionally trained. Your ears and perception are most likely lying to you, especially with something as subtle as noice cancellation. I definitely sympathize with Bose here, it is hard to convince people with science when it comes to audio, unfortunately.

7ewis• 6 years ago

So is the general consensus that we can safely update now?

Honestly I'm not great at noticing sound quality differences, unless there's a huge difference. But this one seemed to affect so many people I stayed away.

exabrial• 6 years ago

Now THAT is how you do a root cause analysis. I don't own a pair of these headphones, but I'm sending this out to my coworkers as an example of thorough work. Very very well done!

Ironically... also looking at purchasing their product

Erwin• 6 years ago

The founder, professor Bose, had quite an interesting career and background: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amar_Bose

His father was an Indian freedom revolutionary[4] who, having been imprisoned for his political activities, fled Bengal in the 1920s in order to avoid further persecution by the British colonial police.
In 2011, Bose donated a majority of the company's non-voting shares to MIT on the condition that the shares never be sold.

MengerSponge• 6 years ago

This is a great episode about Bose's life and gift: https://www.20k.org/episodes/thegift

skizm3• 6 years ago

Why do the newer versions of these have to have freaking Alexa bundled with them. It's like a giant skid mark on an otherwise premium product. Bose does have the best noise cancelling functionality, but I'm simply never going to buy anything with Alexa, Cortana, or whatever Google's version of a voice assistant is paired to it. I deal with Siri crapware because Apple's incentives are slightly better aligned than these other advertising companies, but even that I hate and would get rid of in an instant if possible.

tomaha• 6 years ago

It's only marketing. There is no integrated assistant. It's a plain old button that can be used to activate one of these useless voice assistants on your phone because some people like it. If you're like me, you can use it as an extra control to modify noise cancellation.

usmannk2• 6 years ago

Yeah, you can change the functionality of the button via the Bose app. However, the Bose app is awful.

tomaskafka• 6 years ago

Does a right to use Alexa come without a requirement to send data to Amazon? I'm not sure.

skizm3• 6 years ago

You can politely ask Bose to disable Alexa the same way you can ask Facebook to "delete" your account. They disable the functionality you have access to while still collecting all the data they normally would and having remote access to turn on the microphone and listen in whenever they want without letting you know about it.

pkulak• 6 years ago

You're not the only one. I've been buying the last version without Alexa used for about a year now, and prices are going up, not down.

zionic• 6 years ago

I ran into this trying to get a smart thermostat. Nest is problematic right off the bat because Google, and their main competitor Ecobee comes with an onboard mic + alexa. Luckily I found an engineer who posted a comment/review mentioning the alexa mic can be unhooked inside the phillips-screw-accessible rear housing in <30 seconds... so that made it an instant buy. The idea of an always-listing wifi thermostat in my house is incredibly creepy.

This happened again with the LG CX, surprise! It has a mic for alexa too! Luckily it's only on the remote. Guess which little dot is getting a tiny bead of epoxy first thing?

jjoonathan3• 6 years ago

My expectation would have been that a dot of epoxy would drop the sound level by 10-20dB, which wouldn't do much to prevent listening. Does it work better than that or is this a "something is better than nothing" type compromise?

cjensen• 6 years ago

Ecobee now sells the "ecobee lite" which has no Alexa and no microphone.

iandanforth• 6 years ago

TLDR: PEBCAK

But damn they spent a lot of time to get to that conclusion.

hank_z• 6 years ago

I hope all companies in this world will care customers like Bose does.

beams_of_light• 6 years ago

I have a pair of QC 35s which I can only use low/no NC on due to vertigo issues with "high" mode. Looks like Bose has done an extremely impressive job of fleshing out the problem. Well done.

crazygringo• 6 years ago

This is fascinating.

Seems almost a little overkill, but if their reputation is at stake then you want to make sure.

Now I just wish there were a similar investigation into the AirPods Pro update -- some people swearing it massively impaired the noise reduction, other people saying there's no difference and some tiny subset of people are always going to be imagining things (or taking a different train or working in a new office, like this article).

At least the idea of being able to downgrade firmware ought to put people's minds at ease... but I can also see why technically that might be annoying to implement.

diebeforei485• 6 years ago

Apple's AirPods Pro have a similar issue where a firmware update nerfed the noise-cancelling[1]. Apple stopped pushing the update, but I'm been stuck with this bad firmware for nearly four months now.

The firmware updates are installed silently in the background while AirPods are charging, so I didn't have any choice in the matter.

FWIW - I agree with installing updates automatically silently in the background because it solves a ton of issues for both developers and 99% of users. But the developers must thoroughly test the performance in real-world prior to pushing updates to users AND offer a way to downgrade.

1. https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/18/airpods-pro-noise-cancellatio...

neycoda• 6 years ago

"our full engineering analysis determined that the degradation in all cases was the result of hardware related issues with earcushions, aftermarket parts, or mechanical integrity"

Specifically, damage caused by the customer from use or misuse, or buying inadequate replacement parts from 3rd party manufacturers.

heelix• 6 years ago

There was a time where I likely spent more time on an airplane than some pilots. For years, I used their older QC3 all day long.. traveling and working. At some point, well past any warranty, they started to make a popping sound. They essentially just swapped it out for free.

I picked up a pair of the A20 aviation headsets, just before they announced the Bluetooth update. (I also fly, but when I do they are the bug smashers, not the commercial ones) They turned around and cross shipped a new module for my headset free of charge.

I did end up replacing the older QC3's with one of the QC35 wireless headsets. Nothing but positive things to say about their kit. For the most part, it has been used hard and worked flawlessly. When I have had an issue - they took really good care of me. Would reccomend.

(With the QC35, I've really not needed to do anything with them. They just connected to my Linux box and Andriod tables OOTB.)

Schwolop• 6 years ago

There's a potential systemic bias involved in this that the report does not consider (unsurprisingly). What if the particular firmware caused hearing damage that now causes these users to think the noise-cancelling performance has deteriorated? I have no reason to think this is the case, but wow, what a confounder to have to deal with!

Bose QC 35 Firmware 4.5.2 Noise Cancellation Investigation Report

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