Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

https://theoutline.com/post/2402/the-new-macbook-keyboard-is-ruining-my-life

by nicksergeant • 9 years ago

290 284 9 years ago

theoutline.com

MentallyRetired• 9 years ago

What, you don't like hunting-and-pecking your function row?

valleyer• 9 years ago

That's not at all what the article is about.

CptJamesCook• 9 years ago

I despise my new Macbook's touchbar. I can't get to the volume button without stopping what I'm doing for 4-5 seconds to find the key, then press multiple buttons, I can't use the function keys, and it generally adds no value.

btown• 9 years ago

Just use the buttons on your wired headphones which are equally compatible with your iPhone and Mac... oh, wait.

Ninn• 9 years ago

Great shitpost, too bad none wired headphones like the crowd favourites qc35 and others have volume keys too. Its sad to think that you cannot get out of your bubble and realise that this is not objectively a bad design choice, but some of us actually enjoy and applaude it.

nrclark• 9 years ago

My work gave me one of the 2016 15" MBPs as my main computer, and the keyboard is horrible.

My V key double-presses about half the time, and the rest of the keys are really hard to press down all the way. Some of the keys make a weird metal rattle when I press them.

Typing on that wretched keyboard for more than an hour or so literally bruises my fingers.

Since I do most of my day-to-day work at a dock with an external keyboard, I'm debating whether it's bad enough that I need to fight with IT and be the one special snowflake with a PC instead. But it's bad enough that I'm seriously considering it.

The more I write about this keyboard, the angrier I get. >:(

And also seriously, fuck the touchbar. Who the hell decided that programmers don't need a functional ESC key or permanent function keys? And who the hell decided that I should have to fumble around and mash my already-bruised finger against a tiny glass icon to change my volume level? Just so Skype can show buttons that mimic the buttons already on the screen?

The user experience of the touchbar is objectively worse and adds no value. Most apps don't even use it, and the ones that do don't use it for anything interesting. And before long I'm sure it'll be playing advertisements at me.

vittore• 9 years ago

I think cursor is the worst. why not cut off shift and do up and down proper keys.

cstejerean• 9 years ago

The up/down keys are the only issue I have with the new keyboard. I routinely manage to hit it wrong and the cursor doesn’t move. The rest of it I actually like, including the touchbar.

dillondoyle4• 9 years ago

My biggest beaf with the TouchBar: volume takes two clicks! Instead of an up down and mute button, I get mute and volume which then opens a slider to the left of the click. So instead of just clicking once to lower volume I have to click, move my finger and slide. It would be so easy to allow custom button to add back on (and maybe there is that I haven't been able to find?)

I also accidentally 'touch my pinky finger when typing my password (numbers) and it registers as touch even though I'm not applying downward force. In Chrome thank god I could remove the refresh button, would accidentally refresh login pages all the time.

Gaelan3• 9 years ago

You can just put your finger on the slider key and slide. No need for tap, let go, slide. It's pretty natural.

DeRock• 9 years ago

A couple things: you don’t have to click volume and then move to the slider, you can just touch the volume button and begin sliding immediately and it will adjust relative to how you slide. Also, if you go into System Preferences—>Keyboard, you can customize the keys, including adding a dedicated mute button.

mFixman• 9 years ago

You can add "Volume Up" and "Volume Down" keys, along with other useful functions, in the initial touchbar view by going to the settings.

ryanbertrand2• 9 years ago

I was having the rogue pinky issue as well. I disabled the app awareness of the touchbar and then added flex space to that area where my pinky would hit. It works great but now the touch bar is useless (which is fine by me).

tomxor2• 9 years ago

Instead of an up down and mute button, I get mute and volume which then opens a slider to the left of the click. So instead of just clicking once to lower volume I have to click, move my finger and slide.

Hah, You couldn't make this stuff up... GUIs were borne out of a hatred of highly context based keyboard behaviour (VI, Xerox Parc), now Apple go full circle and revert to context hell by combining a keyboard with a touchscreen GUI. Goodbye Apple, it was nice knowing you.

isatty3• 9 years ago

About the ESC key - if you're using vim you should be remapping it to caps lock. If you rather not remap, you can always just hit ctrl [ (and this works out of the box).

I've been doing this for so long its natural to me even on a keyboard with an actual escape key.

jsjohnst• 9 years ago

I’m a heavy VIM user and I’ve never once had a problem hitting the ESC key on the touchbar. Yes, it doesn’t have same tactile feel, but it’s an ESC key and is a known distance and angle away, so I’m fine.

eptcyka• 9 years ago

If you're talking about escaping a non-normal mode, control+c should always work just fine.

threeseed6• 9 years ago

There is a functional Escape key. It's right there in the top left corner. I use it hundreds of times a day. It's definitely not as nice as a dedicated key but you get used to it.

And if you want permanent function keys then just go to the Keyboard control panel and enable it.

ux-app2• 9 years ago

stop making excuses for Apple's dumb decisions. With physical buttons I can find a key by feel just by running my fingers across the top row. Good luck accurately hitting any button on that stupid little touch screen.

aquamo2• 9 years ago

This is subjective; I don't agree, I need tactile feedback so the ESC key is no more. Like many others, I have disabled the magic bar as much as I could because it occasionally got triggered if I just glanced a finger off of it accidentally.

As an emacs user, I do the following on this box:

[CAPSLOCK] -> CTRL [LEFT CTRL] -> ESC (just like an old HP 9000 workstation keyboard lol)

The above works for me.

While the keyboard is bad on this $4000 laptop; I do love the performance, battery life, and the screen. I would never buy another one though. I suspect I will be on my 2nd key replacement any day now.

ux-app2• 9 years ago

yes I agree. I don't know how hardware teams with such a stellar track record as Apple have can make such awful decisions. The first time I used the new keyboard I thought that it was broken in some way (how is a shorter key travel a better thing?), and the touch bar is just stupid. I've seen people use them and the awkward way they have to stop what they're looking doing, orient themselves with the silly little screen and press a button is just beyond stupid.

I'll go out of my way to buy an old mac before I spend money on these stupid new machines.

slowmovintarget• 9 years ago

The answer is simple. They no longer had someone that would tell them "No, redo it."

It's also why we have a notch on the iPhone X.

bluejekyll• 9 years ago

I love the short throw keys. Obviously everyone has their own personal preferences. I feel like my fingers are dancing across the new keyboard. Initially I disliked the size of the keys, but now when I go back to an older keyboard I realize I even prefer those. (Edit: I still dislike the arrow keys, those suck).

Apple’s big problem is that they cater to everyone with a single offering. And since the keyboards are cut into the metal casing of the laptop, it would probably be expensive to offer an option here (though they probably should). So they make a decision, piss off some, make others happy. This is where PCs have an advantage, as you have more choice.

tomcam3• 9 years ago

I completely identify with your anger

jmkni2• 9 years ago

They definitely should have offered the touch bar as an option, so people who wanted it could have it and the rest could have normal function keys!

audunw2• 9 years ago

Who the hell decided that programmers don't need a functional ESC key or permanent function keys?

I'm still amazed that there are programmers that complain about this. As a programmer, I've avoided ESC and the function keys for years before the touchbar came out.

Apple has even had a built-in option in Mac OS to remap ESC to Caps Lock, for quite a while now. And considering how conservative Apple is when it comes to adding options, I think that says that I'm not alone.

The ESC/function key row is not suitable for ergonomic typing. It's simply to far away from home row. If that area is suitable for anything at all, it's for rare context-sensitive operations, so I think Apples idea was absolutely rational. Wether it's worth the cost is different discussion (for me, probably not).

The culture around keyboards is super weird if you ask me. You have whole subcultures around a near irrelevant thing like key-travel and mechanical switches (though I must admit there is a visceral satisfaction to clicking a really clicky keyswitch), yet people still stick to qwerty and typewriter-based physical layout. ErgoDox seems to be growing in popularity, so it might be changing.

zelos2• 9 years ago

Debugging? Xcode defaults to F6/F7/F8 for step over/in/out. Many IDEs do something similar.

The alternative is to map some key combination, but it's much easier to be able to hit one key instead of Ctrl-something.

burningcore• 9 years ago

I'm still amazed that there are programmers that complain about this.

You shouldn't be. Not sure about Mac. But all the big IDEs - MS Visual Studio, all the JetBrains products, Eclipse, Netbeans, etc use function keys in their default key bindings.

True, functionkey row is not suitable for ergonomic typing, BUT it is not used for ergonomic typing. It's used for... well special functions!

bitexploder8• 9 years ago

Key travel and key response is far more than a near irrelevant thing for folks with RSI. Some people can literally cure RSI with the right keyboard that encourages the right typing habits.

Maybe it is a small enough percentage of the population that it doesn't matter, but this is hacker news and we care a about a lot of strange and esoteric things here that only a small percentage of the population care about anyway. If Dell can make a 15" laptop with a full number pad Apple can find a way to have a less shitty keyboard with an escape key and maybe don't force the touch bar on everyone. It doesn't have to be a popular consumer option. You can hide it in an esoteric out of the way place for us esoteric out of the way users, but... it is ridiculous to ignore the hard core tech fan base and keyboard issues.

akvadrako3• 9 years ago

What you are describing is a broken or dirty keyboard. First of all, the new MBP requires compressed air for cleaning under the keys. If that doesn't work, they will repair it under warranty.

raesene6• 9 years ago

if a keyboard requires compressed air cleaning to function, that sounds like a design defect to me.

I've used PC keyboards for ~25 years now and I've never had one that would break if not treated ...

AlexandrB3• 9 years ago

I have seen absolutely filthy "old" MBP keyboards that worked just fine. It's a laptop, I should be able to use it without having to treat it like a delicate snowflake. Whatever happened to building quality hardware?

orbitur2• 9 years ago

When people are taking your latest model into your store to figure out wtf is going wrong with it, in much greater numbers than the previous model, you've created a broken design.

danpalmer2• 9 years ago

Who the hell decided that programmers don't need a functional ESC key or permanent function keys?

a) I'm a developer, I do not use traditional function keys and would much rather have media keys, etc.

b) This laptop is not just for programmers. It is designed for many people, many of whom could benefit significantly (applications in video/music editing look very useful).

lghh• 9 years ago

a) I'm a developer, I do not use traditional function keys and would much rather have media keys, etc.

Function keys also served as media keys.

BlackjackCF2• 9 years ago

Who the hell decided that programmers don't need a functional ESC key or permanent function keys?

I find functional keys nice, but not necessary. I also just remapped ESC to capslock since I never use capslock anyway.

DigitalJack• 9 years ago

I have capslock as control. My work computer has the ESC key, but it's out of reach. My ipad keyboard has no escape, so I've been training myself to use ctrl-[. Works ok, I don't really notice the difference anymore.

blahedo• 9 years ago

My years on a Sun keyboard spoiled me, so I remap backquote to escape (much more easily reachable than now-standard Escape location). Also Capslock to control and swap backspace and backslash. Everything I use more frequently is closer in. :)

kps• 9 years ago

Who the hell decided that programmers don't need a functional ESC key or permanent function keys?

Steve Jobs.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/841771

The original Macintosh didn't have them either, or Control.

guelo• 9 years ago

It's really just an accident of history, not intentional on Apple's part, that Macs became popular with developers. In an alternate universe Jobs isn't kicked out of Apple, doesn't develop NeXT based on Unix, and Apple continues merrily snubbing developers and not accidentally attracting them the way they did. In this alternate universe I believe more energy and funding would have been directed at Linux and it would be a stronger desktop platform.

api2• 9 years ago

Agreed.

What do you think is the best Linux desktop distro these days?

For hardware it seems like the higher-end Dells are the winners. I have a co-worker with one (runs Windows) and the hardware is excellent. He has some issues with the TPM and firmware but it seems like stuff that would not be a big problem in Linux.

hedora• 9 years ago

About half the macs at work have been upgraded to touchbar models.

Mine hasn’t, but I’ve noticed the touchbar screen freaks out when lots of crap scrolls by in terminal. I’d be tempted to electric tape over mine if I had one. Instead, the common case for coworkers is to keep the old one for WFH, dock the new one at desks, and cope with terrible keyboards during meetings.

We have an open floor plan, so that would break my “hide in a random room to concentrate on stuff” workflow.

I’ve seen die-hard laptop screen users take 17” macs to coffee shops, and lay an external keyboards on top of the now irreparable built-in one.

Maybe that’s the right way forward for people that still want keyboards.

bdcravens2• 9 years ago

After owning one since January, I really don't notice the touchbar. However, I spend most of my time docked with an external keyboard - I've used a Das Keyboard (blues at work, browns at home) and the new Magic Keyboard with 10-key (which has same mechanism as laptop but a little more key travel IMO)

binaryblitz• 9 years ago

I have a 2017 MBP 15 with touch bar and love it. Granted it's newer, so I haven't had any key problems yet, but the keyboard is one of my favorite of all time. (I normally use a CODE keyboard with clear switches at work.) I also really like the touch bar. I've spent some time using BetterTouchTool to customize it, and it has definitely been helpful. The escape key is always there and you don't have to specifically hit it, as the space to the left of the key also functions as escape. For other function keys, they show up when you press the Fn key, which is how I had my old MBP setup anyway. You can also set it so that they always show up instead of the "normal" touch bar functionality.

Not saying you're wrong, just giving my feedback. I'm definitely not a fanboy by any means. I used a mint linux setup for the last year before switching back to mac, and wouldn't touch an iPhone with a 10ft pole. :)

binaryanomaly• 9 years ago

I‘m struggling as well since i have migrated from my 2015 macbook pro. The new keyboards are not well suited for writing more than a few occassional sentences. I make more typing mistakes and am slower than before. Worst keyboard since my whole life. Apple needs to improve this.

Gaelan3• 9 years ago

I actually really like my 2017 MBP's keyboard. There isn't much key travel, but the keys do have a very satisfying "click." I prefer it over older apple keyboards. Keys do have issues weekly or so, but that's resolved by hitting the key a bunch; it's an inconvenience, but certainly not a dealbreaker.

reustle• 9 years ago

Keys do have issues weekly or so, but that's resolved by hitting the key a bunch

I've been considering moving to a 12 MacBook but hearing stuff like this scares me

saurik3• 9 years ago

Yeah. I'm just shocked by how much people are willing to just deal with as if it is normal or something. I have a friend who recently told me they are surprised as how much I hate my 12" MacBook as they are loving theirs... and then a little later they tell me that the O key on their keyboard doesn't work half the time and just... I just don't even... wtf. I swear all the people who love these new computers must just have extremely low standards or something: you shouldn't have to mess around with your computer every week to fix some stupid keyboard issue that wouldn't exist if the laptop was a mere millimeter thicker.

http-teapot• 9 years ago

I have two 12 MacBook at home. I've replaced the keyboard twice on one and zero times on the other. Each time some keys got stuck in pressed position which meant we had to press harder. My other had similar issues except the keys popped back up somehow.

That occasional glorious press on "Return" key may lock it... and it feels terrible.

dannyw• 9 years ago

Am I the only one who has been heavily using the new MBPs since launch, with zero keyboard issues whatsoever? And I sometimes eat at my laptop.

samfriedman• 9 years ago

In the interest of not only providing anecdotes when I'm complaining: I too have had zero issues with the keyboard in the ~4 months I've been using it daily, and actually quite like it. I was afraid after hearing the stories that it'd be an expressionless, tactileless hunk of junk, but I like it a lot.

manigandham• 9 years ago

That seems rather unacceptable given the price of these computers and the history of perfectly fine keyboard designs.

AlexandrB3• 9 years ago

Keys do have issues weekly or so, but that's resolved by hitting the key a bunch; it's an inconvenience, but certainly not a dealbreaker.

My first laptop was a Toshiba Satellite something or other. It was plasticky, had a shitty screen hinge, terrible battery life, poor trackpad, and eventually the video stopped working (I suspect some of the GPU's BGA pins came loose). At the time it cost ~$1000.

Even this POS laptop's keyboard didn't have "issues weekly or so". I don't understand how this is acceptable in a premium product. Remember, the keyboard is a Macbook's primary input device. This is like if the touch functionality on your smartphone started misbehaving once a week until it got "unstuck".

jankotek• 9 years ago

I have Dell XPS 13. When keyboard broke (probably my fault), technician come to my house next day and replaced it in front of me. For free, as part of basic warranty. I was on holiday in other country...

jmkni2• 9 years ago

Likewise when my screen broke, their technician rolls into my office the following day with a new one, no questions asked

slantyyz• 9 years ago

In the pre-retina days, Mac laptops were quite easy to service yourself.

I had a plastic Macbook that I spilled soda pop onto. The keyboard basically got fried. I ordered a replacement part from OWC and was able to fix it myself quite quickly.

The only downside was having to carry an external keyboard in my bag while waiting for the part to arrive since it was my work computer.

bitexploder8• 9 years ago

Dell doesn't produce the most beautiful laptops, but at least every component isn't soldered to your "logic board".

It comes at a cost of larger and heavier laptops, but the XPS 13 Developer Edition I write this on is small, runs Linux, and has a beautiful display and a real keyboard I don't absolutely hate. Even Linus likes it.

I am slowly turning back towards Dell for almost all my main computing accessories (laptop/monitor).

StavrosK• 9 years ago

I love my XPS 15 otherwise, but it has the same problem: A double-pressing spacebar all the damn time, and capslock+<key> (I remapped caps to ctrl) leaves <key> software-stuck until I press any other key.

So far, no updates. I could send it to Dell to have the keyboard replace, but that's going to leave me without a laptop for days, and will do exactly nothing, since this is a software problem.

pudo• 9 years ago

This, so much. Plus, call me clumsy, but the number of times I have accidentally triggered one of the magic bar buttons is beyond count. In everyday use, it often feels like my computer just randomly mutes system audio or locks the display (I had to get rid of the Siri button, it's incredibly annoying).

All of that besides the fact that you cannot really use VIM any more because the ESC button is gone...

Gaelan3• 9 years ago

As a vim user, I don't find the software escape to be bad—it's always in the same spot, even if it's not a physical key. Also, in vim, you can use ctrl-[ instead of escape (which is arguably better anyway).

kagamine3• 9 years ago

Ctrl + [ won't work on any non-English keyboard as the square parenthesis are hidden behind a modifier already. This is a constant problem with software, and now hardware, manufacturers that they assume everyone in the whole wide world is using a US keyboard.

Yes, you can remap and fiddle to make it work but that isn't the point, the point is to pay the same price, sometimes more than Americans and get the same value and experience. Instead we get an inferior experience that requires hacks. Not good at all.

isatty3• 9 years ago

remap to caps lock or use ctrl[ which is better than moving your hand off the home row of keys to hit escape.

I haven't had any issues pressing the touch bar icons accidentally, not even once. Personal anecdote of course.

johansch• 9 years ago

https://github.com/LumingYin/TouchBarDisabler

jorisw• 9 years ago

This is the reason I bought the entry model without Touch Bar and maxed it out as a custom build.

I'm very happy with it. Except yes the arrow keys suck.

davrosthedalek2• 9 years ago

The most annoying thing about Siri is that another key press does not close that window again. It's the first thin I removed from the touch bar.

The number of times I actually wanted to change the terminal colors or open a man page with the touchbar is exactly zero. I press them often enough by accident that I am annoyed.

The touchbar is a solution looking for a problem. Can't find one. If you want reconfigurable keys, why not put a small display in each of them? That would at least be a possible benefit without these fundamental drawbacks.

maxxxxx• 9 years ago

"Can't find one. If you want reconfigurable keys, why not put a small display in each of them?"

Good idea. The whole trend toward touch interfaces is really annoying. Something tactile is much better if you see it a lot. Same in cars. Operating a car heater through touch is much more difficult and requires more attention than old fashioned dials.

audunw2• 9 years ago

All of that besides the fact that you cannot really use VIM any more because the ESC button is gone...

What serious VIM user has not remapped ESC?

One of the reasons I don't like to use VIM, is that the ESC key is so far away, and not suitable for ergonomic typing. If I wasn't already used to Emacs/Sublime and had to use VIM, I would have remapped it immediately. I probably still should, but I use it rarely enough that I don't bother.

Mac OS even has a built-in option for remapping it to caps lock. Apple is very conservative about adding options in System Preferences, so I think this is something a lot of programmers do.

sf_rob• 9 years ago

My gripe is with play/pause. I like having the key but don't want iTunes to be open on an accidental press.

nfoz3• 9 years ago

We had a candidate come in for interviews, and one of them was a video-conference programming session with a remote interviewer. We set them up with a Macbook (running Windows/Bootcamp) for live-coding.

The candidate hit the Power button, located where DEL used to be. Laptop goes to sleep (candidate said it shut down but it probably just went to sleep). He gets it back up but then it needs a login etc., so he had to go find us non-remote staff to log back in, join VPN etc. Took about 5 minutes out of the interview, partly due to confusion + logging back into the things.

I can't for the life of me understand why so many vendors have put this button on the keyboard. It was so simple and sensible to have it somewhere else.

Edited: Macbook running Windows, probably just went to sleep but disruptive nonetheless, combination of hardware+software to blame.

isatty3• 9 years ago

Nothing about this makes much sense - regardless of which generation macbook you're using hitting the power button accidentally will not turn it off (you can try it right now). Did your interviewee keep pressing on it for like 10 seconds?

nfoz3• 9 years ago

Hmm, it might be because we run Windows on the macbooks, but you're right -- maybe it didn't fully shut down. Even sleep is pretty disruptive; it takes my machine ~30s of playing-dead before it pops back, and I'm booted from the VPN and all my connections. I run into this accidental-coffee-break every now and then.

We bought a USB keyboard + mouse for the candidates.

csydas2• 9 years ago

Indeed, I'm not even sure that aside from intentionally editing the PowerManagement.plist that you can do this. On my Macbook Air, you have to hold in the power button for a short period to produce the Sleep/Restert/Shutdown pop-up, and the default is cancel, I believe. Apple's own page on the matter says it requires a 1.5 second hold to produce. [0]

I appreciate your over-all sentiment that when the default behavior for power buttons was to take action, but my expectation now is that bumping the power button should ask you what to do, not do something. I'm still surprised that many Windows based laptops have a default action mapped to the power button regardless of the placement of the button, as interrupting the state of the machine just seems like something you'd want a confirmation on - aside from a few outlier "oh crap no one can see this" moments, I'm not sure why you'd need the quick bump to initiate shutdown or any action from the power button at all. Even in the above situation, a shutdown is far slower most times than just a hard shutdown.

Edit: Seeing your follow up, I feel that you should really update your original post to mention that it was running Windows via Bootcamp. macOS and Windows respond very differently to a power button press, and Windows' default is to take a sleep, hibernate, or shutdown action, and at least on our Server 2016 images, the default behavior is to initiate a shutdown. This isn't OS X behavior, it's Windows behavior.

[0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201236#sleep

chrisper2• 9 years ago

On Thinkpads you have to hold the power button a bit for it to actually register.

kalleboo4• 9 years ago

Same on macOS, and even then you just get a dialog box asking if you want to shut down. Hold it down for 5-10 seconds and you initiate a force shutdown.

suresk2• 9 years ago

The new MBPs are such a mixed bag for me.. I got one at work, while I still use a 2012 MBP, and I go back and forth on some things....

1) New keyboard took a while to get used to, and it does seem like they are a little finicky. After a while, I've gotten used to the feel of it and actually prefer it for the most part. The arrow keys are really hard to use, though..

I do hate that it is such an expensive/involved thing to replace the keyboard.

2) The enlarged trackpad is kinda nice sometimes, but really hard to use other times.. The way I rest my hands on my laptop when I'm using it while sitting back or lying down always results in mis-clicks and other problems with the new trackpad. I'd rather have the smaller-sized one, but I realize others may not have the same problems I do.

3) TouchID is really handy, but the TouchBar is an unfortunate gimmick. I keep trying to find good uses for it, but it mostly ends up being kinda useless - anything I can do with it, I could do before with less work. I hope it goes away, or at least becomes an optional thing in the future.

Overall, while it is nice to have a laptop that is smaller/lighter, the way Apple is sacrificing all sorts of other stuff (performance, repairability) to minimize size/weight sometimes feels wrong for what it supposed to be a professional series laptop.

threeseed6• 9 years ago

Use BetterTouchTool for the Touch Bar.

It allows you to customise it for each application and assign your own buttons based on menu items, scripts etc. For development it is amazing. I have dedicated buttons for Build, Run, Debug, Stop, Step Into and Step Over. For terminal I can adjust terminal profiles with one button.

Also blame Intel more than Apple for performance issues.

crispinb3• 9 years ago

For development it is amazing. I have dedicated buttons for Build, Run, Debug, Stop, Step Into and Step Over

I have these in IntelliJ as standard key combos (some being Fn keys). All of these I can touch type. I can't see how this would be improved by having to look down at the mini-screen at the top of the keyboard.

aaronbrethorst• 9 years ago

Command B, Command R, Command R, Command Period, F7, ^F6.

I can hit most of these (except the function key shortcuts) by feel 100% of the time. I cannot hit any touch bar targets by feel, with the exception of the Escape key.

suresk2• 9 years ago

Fair point, re: Intel.

I will have to check out that tool, sounds like it could be useful.

I guess, though, this highlights part of why it feels so gimmicky. I, like a lot of people using MacBook Pros, spend about 60% of my time on my work laptop docked with external monitors, keyboard, and mouse. Since there are no external keyboards with a TouchBar available, I now have two very different experiences when I'm docked vs undocked.

I'm sure I could use something to create virtual function keys and get back the original functionality and have a roughly similar experience to when I'm using an external keyboard, but then I'm paying extra money for that hardware and losing tactile feedback.

Eric_WVGG• 9 years ago

+1 BetterTouchTool. I have buttons for a "visor" style terminal prompt, OnePassword everywhere, web and mobile inspector tools, love it all. Would hate to give up the Touch Bar now that I've finally made it useful.

Which is kind of the key — Apple didn't build in enough functionality out-of-the-box for users to make it useful. They left it to developers, and developers dropped the ball.

All of this is a separate issue from the keyboard issues. My "F" key has all but popped off. That has nothing to do with the Touch Bar.

kn0where2• 9 years ago

The best kind of controversial Apple design is one that people grumble about because it's ahead of its time, but which ultimately replaces one way of doing things with another that's better for most use cases. See: ditching floppies and adopting USB on the first iMac.

The worst kind of controversial Apple design is one that people grumble about because it's aesthetically pleasing but actually makes the product less user-friendly. See: the hockey-puck mouse on the first iMac.

Regarding that second kind, sometimes Apple recognizes their mistake and, in a future iteration, completely replaces the bad design with a better one. More recently, they seem too infatuated with their initial design decisions and just keep putting band-aids on fundamentally flawed implementations. The butterfly keyboard mentioned in TFA is on its third(!) revision, and it's still clearly flawed. Another example: Apple "fixed" the impossible-to-tell-in-the-dark-which-way-you're holding-it Apple TV remote by putting a single tactile ring around one button, rather than just designing an ergonomic remote that makes it tougher for you to accidentally engage the touchpad and cancel out of the movie you're watching.

So why might Apple underestimate the severity of bad design decisions?

Apple's direction with the Mac lineup as of late is a great example of "success hides problems." [1] Supposedly, the 2016 MacBook Pros sold very well, despite a number of bad design choices that put form over function:

- The keyboard design as described in TFA

- The touch bar (only available on the high end models). The designer must have really hated those useless, ugly fkeys. But instead of putting the touch bar above the fkeys, they eliminated them. The touch bar is not a substitute, unless all you used the fkeys for was changing volume, etc.

- Eliminated all other ports in favor of USB-C, which while great in theory is in fact a highly fragmented incompatible ecosystem of poor quality peripherals and cables that don't give the user any visual indicator as to whether they work together. [2]

IMHO, many if not most of these MacBook Pro customers are buying not because of these bad design decisions but in spite of them. Computers are amazing because they're fun and powerful general purpose machines. These machines may meet some subset of people's needs better than the old ones did. But in exchange for that, they've stopped (or soon will stop) meeting the needs of many, many more.

Somebody once said "design is how it works." If you live in a sterile white world where there's no dust and you never plug anything into your laptop, maybe this product works for you. The rest of us don't have that luxury.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=success+hides+problems

[2] https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c

tomduncalf3• 9 years ago

I understand what you are getting at, but in reality not everyone has issues with the new design, and I’m as yet unclear whether it’s a vocal minority who do, or a more widespread thing.

Personally, I really like my new 15” Pro. I’m in favour of anything which can make it thinner and lighter, to a point, as I like to be able to carry it around easily, while still having a large screen. The design looks beautiful.

In regard to the specific points you raised:

- I prefer the keyboard to the old one. It feels satisfying to type on in my opinion. The only thing I would change is the noise of the keys, it’s hard to type quietly.

- The touch bar isn’t perfect but I think it’s a worthwhile effort, as most people (me included, and I’m a developer) rarely use the function keys for anything aside from the media functions you mention, mainly because it’s hard to remember what they’ll do and having shortcuts visible there is a good idea.

However, the lack of tactile feedback and visibility in sunlight is an issue. I’d rather they’d gone with distinct keys with e-ink displays or similar, but like I say, to me the Fn keys are no great loss (I’ve been remapping escape to caps lock for years anyway!)

- I find the new port set up much more flexible and have had no problems using my old USB devices with adapters or via a hub. I did find the article about USB-C interesting though - hopefully the industry can sort this out in due time.

I don’t make these points to say you’re wrong, but just to show that not everyone agrees that all these design choices are bad.

darklajid• 9 years ago

I'm on Windows, so there's that.

I constantly (multiple times a day) use F1 (help, least used), F3 (search again, next match), F4 (both for the famous close window shortcut and to get to the explorer address bar), F5 (reload in browser, run in other apps), F9 (toggle breakpoint in VS), F10 (step over in VS), F11 (step into in VS).

Occasionally F8, F12.

Couldn't live without those, I guess, and I can find all of those blindly.

saurik3• 9 years ago

Based on the title I assumed that this person was going to be complaining about joint damage due to the low key travel. This keyboard on my 12" MacBook is so bad that between having to get the top case replaced to fix broken keys (when as stated in the article, careful blowing didn't work and trying to replace the keys caused them to break) and my fingers feeing like they have aged many years from the poor ergonomics of no key travel (something I am extremely pissed about) I have mostly just stopped using a laptop: even when using this computer it is now docked at my home with an external monitor and a real keyboard. You have to understand that I am someone who hates desktop computers and has been using the 11" MacBook Air since the moment it came out as a replacement to an HP Mini... I love small computers, but this one is trash. I have it on my todo list to move back to my now-repaired 11" Air, but the thought of having to do that much data movement is demoralizing, particularly as I have grown accustomed to the high-resolution screen. I am not sure what to do as I just can't understand how Apple thinks these keyboards are reasonable... it just seems so obvious that this is dumb.

micaksica• 9 years ago

Your story resonated with me because I had the same experiences with a 12” MacBook.

While I can’t really use you as an example, since you kind of need a Mac for a lot of the work you do specifically, I’ve heard the same complaints about Apple hardware from other long-time Mac users that don’t actually need to have a Mac.

I am curious how many of those of us that don’t need macOS day to day have voted with their wallet away from Apple’s pro line, and what they switched to. I still use a mid-2014 MacBook Pro at work, but at home when it was time to upgrade I took the same path you did and went for the 12” MacBook. It sucked in every way.

Now I’m the owner of a Dell XPS, the supposed most Mac-like PC, and I’m simply stuck with another set of problems: it’s developed a great amount of coil whine, thermal management is spotty to say the least, and the sound card drivers have to be reinstalled every few reboots else it will not detect when I have plugged or unplugged headphones, which has me carrying around a USB DAC. When I need macOS, I’m still running High Sierra on a quad-core Mac Mini server from 2011.

The sad thing is that I don’t think there is a good option at this point. All of the “alternatives” to the MacBook contain their own faults.

Vanit• 9 years ago

Also migrated to a Dell XPS 15 as new Macs stopped exciting me.

No coil whine in mine, but it was hell finding just the right bios version so sleep would work. And if you don't use a specific Intel you driver version you get screen flicker. Le sigh.

TrickyRick2• 9 years ago

For all it's faults, the MacBook Pro is still the best computer for what I do, as someone who doesn't have to use a Mac. macOS being a big factor in favor of it.

KGIII• 9 years ago

I am quite fond of the mobile workstations from Titan. They are a bit heftier, but I'm okay with that. You can customize them into real beasts.

CoolGuySteve• 9 years ago

I switched to an Asus UX305 with Ubuntu a couple years ago for the matte screen and the fact that it has no fans. No complaints so far.

untog• 9 years ago

I was very jealous reading about the announcement of the Surface Book 2 yesterday. I suspect it will be the ultimate as far as Windows laptops are concerned.

Sadly, iOS development is part of my work, so I'm stuck with Apple. I'm dreading the next laptop 'upgrade' I get.

mswiss• 9 years ago

I did the same as you and migrated away. I was looking at the XPS and ended up going with the Razer Blade Stealth. What's actually surprised me most is how much I enjoy having a touch screen. I could see checking out the new surface pro 2 at some point now.

The other huge thing that surprised me was how easy development is becoming with the new Windows Linux Subsystem. The only thing i haven't gotten to play nicely with it is Postgres, but I just set it up in windows and have the wls connect to it and I'm on my way.

wingworks3• 9 years ago

That's the thing, even if I wanted to there is nowhere to go to but Apple, the closest I've seen is a Dell XPS or one of the MS Surface models, but they seem to have there own problems, not to mention I heavily use the Mac trackpad and the gestures, which I've yet to see so well done on a Windows laptop :(

tomcam3• 9 years ago

My experience is eerily similar. I bought the 11" Air the second it came out but gave it away after purchasing the 12" MacBook. Talk about buyer's remorse.

Yetanfou4• 9 years ago

The solution seems clear to me: you don't need to stop using laptops, you need to switch to another brand. There are plenty of laptops (or notebooks or whatever you prefer to call the things) with keyboards which work by manufacturers who put function over form instead of the other way around. The only snag you might hit is if you're stuck - emotionally or otherwise - to a given operating system but even that is solvable, albeit slightly hackish.

The essence of the thing is that Apple only looks at its bottom line so that bottom line is the only way you have to influence their behaviour. Don't like what they sell? Don't buy it, get something else.

carlivar2• 9 years ago

The problem is the OS. Apple hasn't entirely screwed up macOS yet (give them time). It is still better than Windows and Linux in my opinion.

The hardware decline brings them closer to even with other laptops, all things considered, but I suspect many people prefer macOS enough to still stomach the bad hardware.

BlackjackCF2• 9 years ago

I'm really sad because I really like Apple hardware. I would still get the newest line of MBP even if I hate the keys because it'll still be lightyears ahead in terms of hardware sturdiness and feel.

I bought a XPS 15" since I didn't want to dish out for a new Macbook. It's running Elementary OS. I like it well enough, but it has a lot of trouble handling HiDPI that requires constant tweaking.

Zanni3• 9 years ago

If you're damaging your keys and hurting your fingers, you may be typing too hard for the keyboard. I'm not suggesting that that's your fault, just that there may be a mismatch between your preferred typing style and Apple's. I looked at the 12" Macbook when they first came out and was attracted by the small form factor but completely turned off by the keyboard's almost non-existent key travel. I much preferred the heavy, mechanical switches on my Das Keyboard on my Windows desktop. But ... my Windows machine died, and I switched to a Mac Mini with a bluetooth keyboard for a few months. When I returned to my Das Keyboard, I found I didn't like it as much. My typing speed was much faster on the Apple bluetooth keyboard, partly due to the lighter touch required. I now prefer typing with a lighter touch, and eventually picked up a Macbook and love it. I'd still prefer a bit more key travel, but I'm okay with the tradeoff for the form factor.

TL;DR - Macbook keyboards require a light touch, which may not suit your personal style.

FabHK7• 9 years ago

"You're typing it wrong"

williamstein• 9 years ago

I also have a second gen 12" Macbook. It has by far the worst and most dangerous (!) keyboard I've ever used on a laptop. I loved the form factor and tried as hard I could for months (!) to find a way to type on those keys without it significantly hurting my hands but failed. I now also always use a physical mechanical external keyboard instead. The keyboard surprisingly turns out to probably be the biggest drawback of that computer (I didn't expect the keyboard of all things to be such a big problem on a mac).

I've been a loyal mac laptop user for over a decade, but definitely my next laptop purchase won't be a mac...

baldfat2• 9 years ago

I use my company one in a dock. The OS drives me nuts. It seems like the whole thing resolves around the touch pad. I don't have a track pad on the keyboard and it makes the OS so much worse then it already is.

localcdn• 9 years ago

It's rare seeing an ad get through ublock and hosts filters.

dabockster• 9 years ago

This site probably has its own ad system.

The way to go imo.

chrisper2• 9 years ago

Yes, but I didn't find that ad "out of place" or annoying. So I do not mind!

wingworks3• 9 years ago

I had the same feeling, I don't mind ads if they are done well.

aembleton• 9 years ago

The outer div from the advert has a data-dfp-pixel attribute with a value of a doubleclick URL. I'm not sure what that is about, but I guess it is for tracking.

The images themselves are coming from the imgix CDN for outline-brand so they do seem to be providing their own adverts, but maybe using doubleclick for some sort of engagement tracking. I'm not really sure.

ricw• 9 years ago

I like the feel of the new keyboard, though I have two issues with it: 1. sometimes buttons do lock up. i'm unsure whether this is the same issue as in the article, but by pressing them harder they typically start working again. 2. the keyboard is much louder than the one on my prior MacBook pro. I feel very self-conscious whenever i type anywhere public. Maybe this is just me being self-conscious..

saurik3• 9 years ago

I have also noticed that the new keyboard is much louder, which would be tolerable if it were higher quality, but it isn't: it is simply inferior technology.

j7ake3• 9 years ago

Once bash on windows gets sufficiently close to my needs and I am able to swap alt with ctrl, I will little resistance for going from OS X to windows.

rjeli• 9 years ago

linux as daily driver is honestly good, from the bottom of my heart (I recommend xfce)

j7ake3• 9 years ago

Also if any Linux laptop can give me 8 plus hours of productive battery life I am also switching. I had problems with an old one where closing laptop lid drained all the battery so I constantly had to worry about the on state of my laptop

desireco422• 9 years ago

Complete opposite is new Surface Book or however it is called. Keyboard travels just fine, it has touch screen, long life... I am writing this on Mac, I have several more, but since passing of Steve Jobs, things are just not right.

Anyhow, looking at new Microsoft machine, with great graphics card and every feature I would want (sd card, thank you!), couldn't help but think about how things have changed.

Oh and biggie, it has Esc key! Can you imagine that :)

desireco422• 9 years ago

Ha ha ha, truth hurts so much :) How Apple dares not be cool :)

I am in the same boat, I am just not as messed up as you downvoters.

rothbardrand• 9 years ago

I have the 2016 MBP, and have been using it extensively in third world conditions this year. The keyboard has been so good that I didn't even notice it. What I do notice is having to limit myself to the 15 inch display vs the two 40" 4k displays I have at home. The machine supports four, and I would buy a third 4k display (This time UHD) if I could figure out a desk arrangement that supports all three and still keep the MBP in easy reach.

I love my MBP. The flash storage was a little more expensive than I wanted, and I'm going to wait an extra year to upgrade.

Anyway. this isn't a product story- the keyboard is fine.

This is a service story-- Apple should have fixed his right the first time.

PS- Touch Bar is great.

indemnity• 9 years ago

Yep, I have the 2013 15” rMBP and the 2016 15” rMBP.

Much prefer the keyboard on the 2016 model.

Just two gripes:

- keyboard is noisy as hell, very noticeable in conference calls

- trackpad is way too big, it’s hard to find a resting position. six months in i still accidentally touch it when not meaning to.

wingworks3• 9 years ago

Yeah, I like the touchbar, but yeah was a little disappointed in how loud the keyboard and even the trackpad, coming from a 2015 MBP.

forgottenpass• 9 years ago

I'm not sure what to make of your post.

Are you trying to argue that your personal lack of experiencing a component failure means the component's fleet-wide failure rate is acceptable?

Or are you just saying you like your computer, and tossed in a flippant assumption that you don't really stand behind?

tomcam3• 9 years ago

I too have found this keyboard it to be a disaster. I made the mistake of buying two MacBooks as soon as the first 12" model was released, one for me and one for my wife, and my wife's keyboard had so many problems we took it in to Apple. All they could do was offered to swap out the keyboard for a mere $400. My wife refused, and the problem mysteriously solved itself.

Meanwhile, mine "works", but the short key travel makes touch typing next to impossible even after two years of use. I have just purchased an inexpensive windows computer from a Lenovo and I'm trying to get accustomed to Windows 10 so I have a workable keyboard. This is a big deal because I am deep into Apples ecosystem and lock-in.

I do not want to switch but I type all day and I can't bear to buy another Macintosh because the keywords have all gone this way. I am however considering purchasing a new old stock MacBook Air.

stevenwoo• 9 years ago

Where's a good place to find new old stock MacBooks?

nadavami• 9 years ago

I've always had good results with Apple's refurbished devices.

FabHK7• 9 years ago

FWIW, I've had intermittent problems with one or the other key on the MBP keyboard, but as you said, after a while they went away. Maybe I ground down that damn speck of dust.

jamesrcole• 9 years ago

It sounds like there's real, serious problems with it, but nothing in the article comes close to justifying the hyperbolic title.

Camillo• 9 years ago

I just realized that they don't even sell the old form factor any more. They kept it around for a while, but now it's gone.

Where can I get an old-style MBP?

executesorder662• 9 years ago

“Hold on,” I said. “If a single piece of dust lays the whole computer out, don't you think that's kind of a problem?”
...
The Genius shrugged empathetically. He cast around and pointed to a nearby pre-2015 MacBook Pro with relatively thicker keys. "I have one of those," he said apologetically.

Wow. That's got to be the worst tech-support I have ever heard of.

heartbreak3• 9 years ago

What do you expect him to say? He's not an Apple engineer. He didn't design the keyboard. He's a blue-shirt working customer service at an Apple store.

executesorder662• 9 years ago

I expect him to say something along the lines of, "I don't know, let me see what I can find out and I'll get back to you."

Imagine your lawn mower broke, and took it to a repair shop. You complain it doesn't switch on. The repair guy says maybe there is a piece of grass that got inside, and that's why it's not working. You say that sounds like a really bad design if a lawn mower can't handle a piece of grass. He says, "Oh, well I use some other model."

How is that even remotely helpful?

kalleboo4• 9 years ago

I had keys go bad twice on my 2017 MBP, but both times I've managed to "massage" them back to life by pressing down hard and wiggling the keys around.

My previous laptop, the original 2012 MBP Retina, lasted 5 years. I have my doubts this one is built as robustly...

That said I actually enjoy typing on this keyboard. The short travel and sharp, stable clickiness has lowered my typing error rate and makes it feel like I'm typing faster. I was never a good typist though.

skocznymroczny• 9 years ago

I love the keyboard on new MacBooks. I'd like to have a keyboard like that for my desktop PC actually. I like how low travel it is, allowing me to type super fast with minimal effort, also it is nice to touch and makes nice sounds when typing.

efficax• 9 years ago

I also love the 12" MB keyboards. And the new MBP keyboards are even better. I treat my 2016 12" MB like shit, throw it in my bag without a case, eat in its general area, and I've never had an issue with dust messing up the kb. But I believe that there's a design flaw here that apple should fix. But the keyboards are great from every other angle.

eknkc• 9 years ago

I have a 15” 2016 model and I’m close to throwing it out of my office window.

My b and n keys acted up randomly. B would hit twice on each press and n would miss keystrokes sometimes. Cleaned it with air, massaged the keys, removed caps and cleaned etc. Other keys started following. Apple here in Turkey does not have the same support you guys in US seem to enjoy.

They gave me a 15 day repair window, no offer of replacements etc. I simply can’t live without it for 15 days so I’m still using this piece of shit broken laptop.

I’d buy a replacement and send this one to repair only to sell it but then I’d still need to buy a MBP because of macOS.

One of these days I’m gonna pull thr plug and go all linux.

zelos2• 9 years ago

Even Gruber is worried:

https://daringfireball.net/linked/2017/10/17/johnston-macboo...

KayL• 9 years ago

I replaced my broken MBP 2013 to 2017. The keyboard is really horrible!! The 2013 KB was wonderful and I can't find any other laptop with same great KB.

With the new MBP, after one month of purchase, the display is down. I went to Apple Store, and they told me 3 days for repair but I never get any email/tel contacts after a week and their online status remained "repairing". Until I call them back, they told me they contacted and I didn't pick up their phone.

Now after 2 months, I found a video quality issue on their FaceTime camera (with sunlight, same issue): https://imgur.com/a/AQTOw

Has anyone with the same experience?

pimeys3• 9 years ago

This autumn I finally needed to buy a new laptop and spent some time testing and figuring out which keyboard I like the most. The funny thing was that the only seriously decent laptop keyboard is in a model that has a limited release and will probably sell out in the coming weeks: The ThinkPad 25th anniversary edition.

How can it be that to get a seriously good keyboard for programming, I need to get a novelty laptop and get it fast until it sells out. If you have a chance to test it somewhere and can take a hit with a FHD panel, this is definitely a fast and robust laptop.

bitexploder8• 9 years ago

I think FHD is a feature. Even on a 15" laptop it is around 140ppi, thats... a lot. And FHD saves on battery life significantly on anything not Apple. I specifically ordered a Precision 7520 this week with an anti-glare FHD with no mic or webcam because 140+ PPI is a good balance for me and it extends battery life significantly.

96 ppi is the old standard. 140ppi generally gives a very nice and crisp screen. The 220 or so on most MBP retina is nice, but probably overkill starting around 180ppi in my estimation.

pimeys3• 9 years ago

It's definitely ok! I just had a ThinkPad X1 Carbon to test from work and I kind of liked the WQHD resolution with the crisp colors. At least for 15" screen and keeping one Emacs and one terminal side by side was a nice way to work and I could easily read the text.

Not complaining though, everything else in this T25 is so much better.

mikejmoffitt2• 9 years ago

Agreed, and I'm happy that I'm not the only person with this view on display density. I can deal with HiDPI displays if it allows me to to a 1:2 integer scale without losing too much real estate, but any scaling between there loses small pixel details. As someone who appreciates sharp bitmap fonts and pixel graphics, the retina MBP is a big irritation.

mikejmoffitt2• 9 years ago

I just received my T25. They are already unavailable in the US. I will soon be making a comparison video between the T25, my X62, and the old X300.

I will say that the panel itself is a good panel, 1080p aside. It is like the one in the T450s - good white point, linear constant-current backlight driver (no flickery low-freq PWM!)

pimeys3• 9 years ago

I was so lucky to find one from a local computer store. I've been writing code with it now for two days and I must say it's the best laptop I've ever used. The keyboard is just too good, but it's also sturdy, fast and feels nice. And I've had four thinkpads, two macbooks and one asus. T25 might be the pinnacle of laptops for me. Lenovo would be stupid to not continue using these keyboards in some of their models.

antoinevg• 9 years ago

When I got my first MacBookPro in 2009 I was sold instantly.

Not because of the specs, I had given up a Dell costing a quarter of the price with higher resolution display, more memory, a nicer keyboard and faster CPU.

I was sold because, unlike any of the other Windows & Linux computers I owned at the time, it did not make me angry when I used it.

I miss _that_ MacBookPro.

singularity2001• 9 years ago

if you are a halfways professional and care about your fingers never type on any laptop keyboard unless you absolutely have to.

mrmondo• 9 years ago

I might sound like the black sheep here - but I really enjoy typing on the new MacBook keyboard, even when switching from my DAS ultimate on my desktop and back - I truly enjoy it and make far less mistakes while typing faster.

What I do think is completely useless is he touchbar, nice idea but no real use.

madmax108• 9 years ago

It constantly amazes me how a product which is so widely criticized by the dev community, ends up selling so well. Really shows how Apple dropped the ball from making a system which became the de-facto developer laptop (whether I like that it did or not is a different question), right upto this clunky mess which is a far cry from their earlier versions

I still maintain that the 2012 rMBP, which were the last Macbooks that came out under Jobs IIRC, were the most stable developer-focussed iteration of the MBP. No heating issues, a sexy screen, stable non-glitchy non-hanging OS, and a wonderful experience overall!

heisenbit• 9 years ago

Are thy selling well? Apple's market share is not growing. I got a 2012 MBP and the money to buy a new one. What I see is not convincing me I get value for money. Apple used to know that basics matter but recently they are innovating on the margin. That only gets you so far onto the ice...

JoshMnem5• 9 years ago

Try ThinkPad + Linux. Amazing environment for programming, $1,000+ cheaper than MBP, nice keyboards, better specs for the price, including several years of at-home next-day repair service.

jacek• 9 years ago

I agree that Thinkpad + Linux is a great combo (with wonderful keyboards!). However, repair service wasn't that good in my case. Response and shipping was super fast, but my laptop was at their repair center for 2 weeks waiting for a part (battery).

I switched to Thinkpad with Linux from Macs 18 months ago. Adapting took maybe two months. I would not like to go back.

JoshMnem5• 9 years ago

Did you get the next-day, at-home repair services? I've used it before and they drove to my house the day after it broke, replaced the motherboard without any questions and got it working again. This laptop was about $1,900, including tax, shipping, and four years of that at-home support. Excellent specs: 24 Gb RAM, etc.

jagger27• 9 years ago

better specs for the price

If only the displays were 16:10 or 3:2 and as nice as a MacBook's. Otherwise, yeah, they're better.

leg100• 9 years ago

I much prefer the display on my t470s to my macbook pro retina (albeit from 2012).

Same "retina" resolution, but the matte display makes reading text a pleasure.

mrgoldenbrown• 9 years ago

I've found the "cheaper" part is situational. When I bought my Macbook Air, the comparable Thinkpad (X1 Carbon) was the same price, when I specced them the same.

JoshMnem5• 9 years ago

I'm not sure about the X1. The T460 was much cheaper than a MBP with significantly better support and specs (except for the screen, which didn't matter to me, since I don't edit photos or video seriously).

jjrrmm2• 9 years ago

Tried it. Hated it. Back to Mac with Macbook 2015

guftagu• 9 years ago

But where would I find all my apps like Evernote, Skype, Numi, Tyke, Alfred etc. ?

JoshMnem5• 9 years ago

It's a different workflow. :)

- Org Mode

- Google Hangouts

- There are plenty of calculator options on Linux

mnm1• 9 years ago

I wonder if at some point we'll see lawsuits over these horrible keyboards from people with repetitive stress injuries. I sure hope so. This problem was foreseen and could have been avoided but Apple refused. Now it's turned into a multiplicity of problems. Personally I'm done with Apple's shitty products.

aquamo2• 9 years ago

about 8 months into my experience with my 15" MBP 2016 I had the underbar-hyphen key stop working altogether. They replaced the key for me in the apple store without charging me. Glad I have apple care, I'm sure other keys will follow. Currently my right shift key is starting to get sticky feeling which was the precursor to the "-" key failing on me. I'm not impressed with the build quality considering the high cost of this machine $4000.

Chaebixi• 9 years ago

Don't worry everyone! Apple's going to fix this in the next version by replacing the keyboard with a touch screen!

bitexploder8• 9 years ago

Don't give them ideas. Just... don't. The all new Electro Tactile Keyboard. It is the most amazing typing experience you have ever had on a keyboard.

3 years later everyone is wandering around with claws for hands, having forgotten what real keyboards do for human to computer interaction.

lallysingh• 9 years ago

Ahem, this isn't a new idea for them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks

elcapitan• 9 years ago

I have a 13" MBP with butterfly keys for my job (desk) which work perfectly fine, and a 12" 2017 MB with butterfly keys which jam all the time, because I use it in messier environments. I have to blow canned air through the keyboard every two days to unjam some of the keys.

neap24• 9 years ago

I had the most bizarre issue with my 2017 MacBook Pro keyboard: the left shift key stopped working intermittently. Thinking it was a piece of dust, I took off the key cover and tried to clean it out. Nothing worked. I finally made a Genius appointment for the day after High Sierra was released. I updated to High Sierra that morning and, suddenly, my shift key was in perfect working order again.

danpalmer2• 9 years ago

I quite enjoy typing on the new keyboard (2017 MBP), and have not had any issues.

My only minor criticism would be that the up and down arrows are a little tricky to hit quickly without looking, but it's really minor for me.

Overall, in my experience, this was a solid upgrade on the previous keyboard (which I had to use a few days ago to prepare my old MBP to be sold).

cjbillington• 9 years ago

Yeah, these up and down arrows are a bit of a disappointment. I have a Dell XPS which has the same half-height keys for up and down. I hit the wrong one all the time. Guess I should enable system-wide vim or emacs bindings or something.

mertd• 9 years ago

As a mechanical keyboard fan, I'm quite impressed with how much tactile feedback the keys provide despite the short travel. I could live without the touchbar though.

ryanbertrand2• 9 years ago

My keyboard is currently double adding ‘b’ when I click on the B key. Very annoying and leads to variable name bugs when I don’t catch it.

I just received my MacBook Pro back from service 2 weeks ago (I had popping/cracking noises coming from the hinge / case when opening the computer or when heating up or down). I don’t remember this B issue happening before :(

gol706• 9 years ago

Well, I'm glad it's not just me. I had my top case replaced a month ago after my 'w' key started sticking down off and on. I could swear I felt one of the keys on my new case stick once, but it hasn't happend again.

I usually don't buy Apple Care, but as I look at the 1 year mark approach, I'm thinking I may need to suck it up and buy it if the alternative is a $400-700 top case replacement ever few months on my dime until Apple decides to issue an extended warranty. Even if they do issue one, with my last laptop, I had to fight them to replace my main board a second time with the GPU failures because they tried to claim that since they repaired it once, it was impossible that the issue could happen a second time even though all of their diagnostic tests showed that it indeed had.

On the plus side, ever time they replace the keyboard, you get a brand new battery and new USB-C connectors (which I'm also paranoid are going to have longevity issues).

FireBeyond• 9 years ago

Even if they do issue one, with my last laptop, I had to fight them to replace my main board a second time with the GPU failures because they tried to claim that since they repaired it once, it was impossible that the issue could happen a second time even though all of their diagnostic tests showed that it indeed had.

Been there, done that. Even to fix once. "Well, it fails that specific diagnostic and there's a bulletin about it, but we don't think that's the issue", even though I could repeatedly make it kernel panic due to a GPU fault merely by browsing a page in Safari (and the console spewed forth the same errors).

I know people claim Apple has uniformly excellent service and I'd agree that for the most part, they do, but there's also polarizingly bad service, too.

r-s• 9 years ago

Have a 2017 MPB I got for work, I pretty much only run it in closed clamshell mode. If I need to actually be type something, I will pull out a $500 acer laptop from 5 years ago running linux because it is much nicer to type on.

If I actually paid for the machine I would be pretty mad. The keyboard misses clicks and the lack of the escape key still bothers me.

pdq2• 9 years ago

If you own a Macbook or Macbook Pro with the new slim keyboard, do yourself a favor and buy an Uppercase keyboard protector [1].

I got dust under mine last year, had to get the Apple repair under warranty, and then bought this $12.95 insurance. It's been working great ever since. If I pull the cover off, the keyboard looks brand new.

The only negative is that it leaves key impressions on the screen when you close the laptop (due to the the cover touching the glass), but these are easily cleaned off with water/alcohol once every 2 weeks.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/UPPERCASE-GhostCover-Keyboard-Protect...

AlexandrB3• 9 years ago

I absolutely hate these. They make laptop keyboards feel even mushier than normal and have the aesthetics of plastic-on-living-room-furniture. The fact that this is now a good idea (a requirement even!) for a premium laptop is unacceptable.

I love Apple, I really do. The magsafe connector sold me on my first Macbook in 2009 and I've been buying Apple laptops ever since. However when the new MacBook Pros were announced the first thing I did was buy a fully specced, refurbished "last gen" Macbook pro because the butterfly keyboard is a bridge too far for me in terms of typing feel. Apparently it's a bridge too far in reliability as well. This might be my last Macbook.

pdq2• 9 years ago

Disagree here. This protector is paper thin and doesn't change the key typing feel at all. Every keyboard I've ever owned gets dirt, grime, crumbs, etc under them, and this keeps it brand new without needing to clean the keyboard.

Secondly, I liken this to getting a silicon case for your phone. You don't have to get one, but the second you drop your phone, you will be thankful you had it.

dsego• 9 years ago

Have the same problem recently with the W-key, it types twice sometimes, most noticeably, it will close two tabs instead of one. When I smack it, it fixes it for a while, I think. The f-key is also giving me trouble, it's shallower and sounds different, sometimes it will just fall out.

AJ007• 9 years ago

I have been using one for over two years. The first month I had enough problems I thought that the keyboard was definitely broken. Since then I’ve had minimal to no problems. Certain typing styles certainly could make the keyboard unusable.

brandonmenc• 9 years ago

I love the new MBP keyboard.

I have it connected to an external monitor most of the time, but I relish any chance I get to work away from the office - just for the opportunity to use the built-in keyboard.

psychometry• 9 years ago

I prefer the trackpad over a mouse and don't mind the keyboard. Thus, I've positioned my monitor directly over my laptop screen, stacking it on top of books if necessary.

jarym• 9 years ago

Apples obsession with thin is taking liberties and no matter what they say, I know a significant number of MBP users who are sticking with older laptops - just like the genius in the article.

ibiza• 9 years ago

The previous generation MacBook Pros are still sold new on the Apple Store. Scroll down a bit: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch

asdfasdfasd3333• 9 years ago

So glad someone called this out. A single key on my MBP broke and Apple wanted $500 to "fix" it, even with AppleCare.

Fuck that.

baldfat2• 9 years ago

Wait you had paid for Apple Care and yet they wanted $500? Why is Apple so sacred with so many people?

shinratdr• 9 years ago

Because this isn't the typical experience for most?

I've had nothing but good things to say about Apple's repair policies. If it's in warranty, wander into an Apple Store, explain the issue, come back an hour or two later for your free fix or replacement.

Done and done. I've also heard horror stories, but they're a pretty big company. I'm not surprised it's a mixed bag. I can say that there are almost no companies that have a store a couple blocks from me that I can walk into and get free same day repair service for some devices.

The vast majority require me to mail my device into some unknown depot and be without it for a much longer period of time.

asdfasdfasd3333• 9 years ago

This is correct. Not the first time Apple Care has screwed people.

svckr2• 9 years ago

Though Apple employees receive significant yearly discounts on computers, and this was the first significant redesign of the MacBook Pro’s body in eight years, he had chosen not to buy one of the new ones, even a year later. (The author, referring to a Genius' 2015 MBP)

Umm. I earn modestly good money developing software and my 2010 MBP is starting to show its age. How much does he think an Apple Store employee makes? How much DOES an Apple Genius in NYC make?

cosmotron• 9 years ago

According to glassdoor, an Apple Genius working in NYC makes approximately $23/hour [1].

[1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Apple-Mac-Genius-New-Yo...

bsimpson• 9 years ago

FYI, OP is a woman: https://twitter.com/caseyjohnston

svckr2• 9 years ago

Thanks for pointing that out! Usually aiming for non-gendered language, but sometimes assumptions get the better of me!

bdcravens2• 9 years ago

Am I the only one who would prefer the old style keys but keep the Touch ID?

api2• 9 years ago

This is what happens when you hyper-optimize for a single dimension in a many-dimensional optimization problem. In this case it's "thin and light."

MacBook Pros have been thin and light enough for nearly a decade. If I want tiny I have a smart phone that I can pull out of my pocket. I want a laptop to be a portable "real computer" with a lot of power, durability, and good ergonomics. Long battery life is also important. I'd be very happy with a thicker Pro with more CPU, more RAM, and a big battery.

The latest Macs are such a disaster I'm currently thinking about how I can extricate myself from the platform and go back to either Windows or Linux. The OS is fine but the hardware has gone bozo. My latest Mac was a refurbished older model which I consider to be superior in many ways to the newer ones.

gingerb• 9 years ago

I am a developer spending 10+ hours a day on my old macbook pro (2015 model). It is without doubt the best pc I've ever had. And I am treating it with even more care now.

I really don't want the new model as replacement, for more reasons. I don't expect Apple to recover from the loss of Steve Jobs, at least not in terms of quality. I see they are trying to remain a financial success.

Which laptop will be an improvement compared to the one I have now? I don't want Windows, but a Linux distro would be great if the OS happened be as robust as OSX in all respects. I tried Arch, Ubuntu flavours, etc.. none of them compare in many ways. I actually never had a touchpad on any other laptop that behaved as smooth as the mbp one for example.

awalton• 9 years ago

There was literally nothing wrong with the MBP2013 keyboard. This endless pursuit of making anorexic electronics by Apple will only continue inventing faults like these - there's simply a limit to how thin these things can go and maintain durability, and that's what we're seeing here.

Jobs never would have let this nonsense happen. He'd have pressed the key and thrown the machine at whomever invented this "butterfly" switch.

xBytez• 9 years ago

Regardless of the issues with the keyboard, I've given it a try and I just really can't enjoy typing on it, especially coming from a keyboard with tactile switches.

lokerfoi• 9 years ago

Just read it and after about 4 months my B needs extra presses to work. Jinxed myself.

krishicks• 9 years ago

I have a 2015 MacBook and also use a HHKB Pro 2 Type S; both wildly different keyboards.

I think the MacBook keyboard is wonderful, though I prefer my HHKB. It requires a different method of hitting the keys, but I have no problem going between the two, or to any of the other keyboards I use.

I recall when Apple first came out with the thin aluminum keyboards that it took me some time to adjust from what I was using at the time, a Microsoft Ergo something or other with huge key travel and vague key actuation feel.

If you get pain while using any keyboard you should look into how you're using it, and why you're getting that pain.

Problems with MacBook butterfly switch keyboards

Related Stories