Show HN: Rumuki, a prenup for sex tapes

https://rumuki.com/

by nathankot • 9 years ago

405 198 9 years ago

rumuki.com

secfirstmd• 9 years ago

This is a clever idea that I feel has lots of uses, not just sex tapes.

mwambua• 9 years ago

I agree. I'd be pleasantly surprised if this isn't patented already.

Thrillington4• 9 years ago

This is too general (and likely obvious to a skilled practitioner) an idea to be patented.

mseebach4• 9 years ago

It has indeed. It's more commonly known as "DRM".

ycmbntrthrwaway5• 9 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_sharing

SeriousM• 9 years ago

... Or just don't trust everybody...

stefs5• 9 years ago

if you're in a relationship at some point you should be able to trust the other to some degree or you won't be able to relax and enjoy it. there's no watertight way to completely assess the others reliability though, so you're always dealing with a certain amount of uncertainty.

sex tapes can be fun but are something very private, potentially damaging and a liability in case the relationship ends on bad terms (which can happen under the best circumstances).

so without (even flawed) protection like this you've got two options:

a) don't do sex tapes, which is not a good option in case you want to make sex tapes.

b) try not to let a leak affect you, which is not a good option because you're only human and part of a larger society where sex tapes aren't universally accepted (maybe with the exception of porn actors).

using this you have at least another level control/protection that might defer all but the most technologically versed (or at least prevent super high-quality leaks).

mirimir4• 9 years ago

Ummm, so shoot a video of the playing video. Or hack into the display circuitry. With that, you could stream a copy somewhere, even if both parties were present.

patrick_haply• 9 years ago

That was my thought too. It's not going to stop a determined person, but it's probably enough to prevent the casual voyeur.

golergka• 9 years ago

Ask for frontal camera access, detect recording devices.

ycmbntrthrwaway5• 9 years ago

Uh-oh, nobody wants their face filmed while watching porn.

And again, it is a client app, assume it would be modified by a malicious party.

Just admit the problem is not possible to solve.

nathankot7• 9 years ago

OP here, this is addressed in the FAQ, I'll paste it here :)

How do I know my partner won't abuse my trust?
You can't. However with Rumuki you have the discretion to only grant playbacks when you can keep an eye on them. You also have the option to revoke all playback grants and delete the recording if trust is ever lost.

Freak_NL• 9 years ago

While you literally did address the question (and I applaud you for responding), you didn't actually answer it.

There is, of course, no technological way to prevent someone from capturing a video through the analogue hole (i.e., pointing a camera to the video as it is played), even if we assume that is possible that a consumer device can be controlled to such an extent that its owner can't find a way to capture the video output digitally.

dsacco3• 9 years ago

In principle, what stops one party from simply reverse engineering the client app and permanently retrieving the file? Once the video file is decrypted on the client, even briefly, you've lost control.

Your answer demonstrates that you've thought about this problem, not that you've solved it. I like the idea of this app, but I would argue that the core promise of your app is technically infeasible.

EDIT: I clicked through to read your whitepaper and see that you've explicitly called this concern out and admitted the DRM scheme cannot be foolproof. That's admirable, and I'm glad you did address it. I would gently suggest you place that disclaimer somewhere in your FAQ as well.

kijin• 9 years ago

Most people who leak sex tapes involving an ex probably don't think of doing so while they are still in a relationship with said ex. By the time they think of revenge, the victim-to-be should already have revoked access.

If your ex is making secret copies of sex tapes while you are still in a relationship with him, I think you have bigger things to worry about than revenge porn.

stefs5• 9 years ago

in my opinion this is the main point people pointing out the "just videotape it" problem miss.

duiker101• 9 years ago

As always, the only way to be certain your genitals wont be on the internet is to not film them. But then again.... that's not fun.

aninteger• 9 years ago

I think you're being sarcastic, but I just can't tell. I'd guess 99% of people doing this have just as much fun without filming.

ycmbntrthrwaway5• 9 years ago

I think it should be put more clear that it is possible to keep the "red key" (see https://rumuki.com/#how-it-works), but it is not kept by the app if it is not modified to prevent accidental leaks only.

The app does not protect from malicious partners, it just makes sure videos are still secure if one of the phones is stolen or lost. I even think there should be a feature to backup your key to your computer or your other phone.

stevehiehn• 9 years ago

Sure. But I would imagine that most videos start off with sincere mutual interest and only later due to bad breakups or stolen phone etc become a problem.

Numberwang2• 9 years ago

Do a external recording while having access and this solution fails.

ekidd• 9 years ago

I mean, that's obvious, right?

And yet, this solution still provides a dramatic increase in security for its users. Normally, files "exist by default", and will continue to do so forever. You have to take deliberate action to delete them. But here, files are effectively "destroyed by default", and can only be accessed via:

1. Consent of both parties.

2. One of the parties going out of their way to make a deliberate copy within a 7-day window, when (you hope) they're still well-disposed towards the other person.

A security solution does not need to be perfect.

Similar issues arise with systems like Hashicorp's Vault, which generates time-limited, revokable credentials for programs. Obviously, a compromised server could abuse a time-limited AWS credential. But that's still a much better situation than handling out AWS credentials with unlimited lifetimes, because they'll inevitably wind up in all sorts of strange places.

Expiration is not a solution to all your security problems. But it's much better than no expiration.

EGreg2• 9 years ago

What's to prevent someone from taking the video of the video? The snapchat question.

Numberwang2• 9 years ago

I guess you are right, but I think if this solution became mainstream people would do a backup as soon as they have access. This solution will give some false security and some extra security by luck and antagonist incompetence. It won't make that much of a difference.

RegulatoryRoger• 9 years ago

In many places, paying for sex is illegal. Paying to make a pornography video isn't. Could this be used to build the Uber for sex?

sseveran• 9 years ago

In short...No. https://www.popehat.com/2016/11/06/private-porn-shoots-brill...

mseebach4• 9 years ago

TL;DR: Very long and pretty offensive post that boils down to "because the courts aren't stupid and can probably tell the difference and by the way there are some specific legal requirement that when making porn you need to cross-reference IDs and you're probably not doing it".

eganist• 9 years ago

This question is asked commonly enough that Popehat dedicated at least one post to explaining why the "porn exception" would flop:

https://www.popehat.com/2016/11/06/private-porn-shoots-brill...

kristerv2• 9 years ago

haha, great. Awesome landing btw. I'd love to be updated on how your project goes. Blog?

nathankot7• 9 years ago

Thanks! It's already on the App Store (since today,) I've been working on this for about 2 years now.

agos• 9 years ago

any possibility of an Android version?

amartya916• 9 years ago

Couldn't agree more. I clicked on the link being skeptical, but the landing page is so well done that I came way impressed. Congratulations on shipping this product, and wish you all the very best.

nathankot7• 9 years ago

Thank you!!!

hellofunk4• 9 years ago

This app would have saved my career a couple years ago. Now, when I visit the old office to say hi to my ex-colleagues, I still can't get past the nickname they gave me because of what happened.

J0-nas2• 9 years ago

What did you expect?

hellofunk4• 9 years ago

I expected my colleagues to respect the things I do in private and realize I'm just human. And at the very least, if they were going to publicly respond, I'd have expected them to compliment me instead.

juskrey4• 9 years ago

I believe environments auto-eject those people who do not belong there anyway, the reason does not matter.

Thrillington4• 9 years ago

So if you end up being ejected from a group it was justified because you didn't belong there. Nice logic.

debatem1• 9 years ago

Yuck. I'm sorry you went through that.

gregshap2• 9 years ago

sorry. they sound like crappy people so you probably would have had some falling out eventually anyway

overcast• 9 years ago

Geez. It's only sex, I really don't understand why people make such a big deal about it, sex tape or not.

dbg31415• 9 years ago

What happens when one person dies? Is the other cut off, or is the system smart enough to have a dead man's switch option that lets you allow access if no response is given in X hours / days?

stefs5• 9 years ago

hopefully the other person is cut off, otherwise the system would be practically useless.

mseebach4• 9 years ago

Presumably, this is tied to access to the phone. If the deceased person has left their phone password behind, whoever has the password can grant access to the video.

mrcactu5• 9 years ago

i observe it was written in Haskell

https://github.com/rumuki/rumuki-server/tree/master/app

hawkice• 9 years ago

That code hardly does anything at all. The real heavy lifting is done in src.

jessaustin• 9 years ago

I didn't notice this issue addressed anywhere: what if the blue adversary/sex partner simply steals the red phone for a few minutes in order to grant access to the blue phone? Will red be informed of this? Is there some sort of passphrase that only red knows, to prevent this?

nathankot7• 9 years ago

Yup, you can set an in-app passcode that locks the UI (you're asked to set one different from the phones passcode)

EGreg2• 9 years ago

Why not make this work for files of any kind?

By default, a message could disappear shortly after playback ended a la Snapchat.

But you could store the encrypted version and bring if back anytime with consent of both parties.

raldi• 9 years ago

Did you patent this?

euphetar• 9 years ago

It seems like a good idea, but won't work.

I can't imagine two horny teens like: M: Show me something hot baby F: Sure! But please install that app to take all the nececary security precautions before we proceed with our sexting...

This will gain traction among camgirls and other people that produce private porn (I just invented that term because I don't know how one would call porn distributed on an individual basis). So thats like, pervware?

hellofunk4• 9 years ago

I think you are understanding the app-foo of our youngest adult generation. Installing and using this app would be low resistance. I see 20 year olds jump through much bigger hoops just to score a date or play a game.

hellofunk4• 9 years ago

I meant *not understanding, or underestimating, the app-foo... (too late to edit)

bootlooped2• 9 years ago

This would lower resistance to making a video in the first place due to the stronger security. Surely some people would not use it because they aren't security minded or they're inebriated or something, but I think it does have value.

ycmbntrthrwaway5• 9 years ago

would lower resistance to making a video in the first place due to the stronger security

You make it sound like it is a good thing. In fact, security is lower than when there is no app and no video is made. And the video is not secure because it can still be copied.

jt21902• 9 years ago

Where's the legal contract part? If my video is leaked by the other party, I'd like to at least have a clear contract so I can issue takedown notices, sue for copyright damages, etc.

jimnotgym2• 9 years ago

A contract would require a transfer of consideration...ie paying money.

jt21902• 9 years ago

Where's the legal contract part? If my video is leaked by the other party, I'd like to at least have a clear contract so I can issue takedown notices, sue for copyright damages, etc.

(Edit: Not a new idea, certainly, but well executed so far.)

ldjb• 9 years ago

That would probably be a matter between you and the other party (the video never touches the app's servers). There's nothing stopping you from drawing up a contract yourself, but I don't see any reason for this app to provide something like that.

runarberg• 9 years ago

I'm pretty sure leaking a sex video without consent is already illegal in most countries. And you can sue the other party for a lot more severe crimes than copyright damages.

Thrillington4• 9 years ago

You might be surprised how much the law lags at criminalizing morally reprehensible acts enabled by technology, like revenge porn.

I can't speak to other countries specifics, but in the US the most effective avenue currently appears to be copyright claims. That's a civil proceeding, so the jilted ex is only on the hook for financial penalties.

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/revenge-porn-...

stefs5• 9 years ago

i just read the page again and realize this is for a single view and a maximum of 7 days for sex tapes recorded while both partners are present.

in my opinion this is one way to do it but prevents me from having a kind of "library" with videos to share with my partner.

how about a shared library that is watchable until access is revoked by one party?

there's also the question about sharing videos with a person that's not present (i.e. long distance relationship).

rgoodwintx2• 9 years ago

Unless I'm reading wrong, the videos aren't gone after 7 days; the key grant is valid for 7 days before it expires (or if it is revoked). Deleting the key, or deleting the video, seem to be the permanent actions that removes the videos; otherwise they are available indefinitely. I'm sure @nathankot can clarify here.

nathankot7• 9 years ago

You are correct!

usgroup• 9 years ago

Hmmm thinking better still would be some kind of cooperative playback whereby it's not possible to play or record the video without direct cooperation from the other device. One device could store a one time pad for the video and the other could store the XOR with the one time pad. Both have to cooperate to play back. Could be extended to N devices devices using Samir's algo

ChicagoBoy11• 9 years ago

I'm incredibly impressed by the design work on this. As someone who has studied design the past few years, the landing page alone is filled with little details and choices that taken together just succinctly and beautifully communicate what this app does. Definitely inspiring to know Nathan just hacked on this on his own -- I hope it is a terrific success!

jboggan• 9 years ago

Yeah I am laughing out loud at the landing page, I think it's pretty brilliant and I somehow missed the condom over the camera until I started sending it to other folks. The color scheme matches the intended use . . . I mean if I pulled this up on my phone in a dark room I don't think it would spoil the mood with too many bright blue-whites.

pateldeependra• 9 years ago

This is not foolproof. What if someone records the video from another phone while playing. Similar to snapchat.

moron4hire2• 9 years ago

There is no accounting for the analog loophole

lookACamel2• 9 years ago

I think the idea is that during the relationship both parties are at peace so neither party will have any desire to do something underhanded like recording the video from another phone. This app addresses the problem that occurs when the relationship ends on a bad note and one party has to the urge to harm the other through whatever means necessary.

joezydeco• 9 years ago

Because nobody would ever offload the videos before the breakup?

iak8god3• 9 years ago

This is pretty naive though. Everyone so far who's ever sent me, er, "home videos" has later decided to stop sending me such content and would probably revoke my access to it if they could. Maybe I'm just a sneaky jerk, but backing up content that I would like to see again seems like something I'd try regardless of how the relationship was at the time. I don't mean anyone harm and I'd not distribute someone's videos without their consent. I'd just want to keep the ability to look at them.

gkya5• 9 years ago

neither party will have any desire to do something underhanded like recording the video from another phone.

Well... The viewer needs to request permission from the partner, and may want to bypass that. Furthermore, a given video may have more than two partecipants, and the app seems to be limited to pairs of people. In such situations the video will need to be shared with those people too.

The most secure option is to have one encrypted copy of the file and only that, and decrypt only when viewing it, and only temporarily. Even then it's possible to make recordings of the content as tiny hideable cameras are sold everywhere. I'm not dismissing the work done, but if someone is as careful about security to use such an app, they can also do the best thing and not record at all.

saycheese3• 9 years ago

From the FAQs:

How do I know my partner won't abuse my trust?
You can't. However with Rumuki you have the discretion to only grant playbacks when you can keep an eye on them. You also have the option to revoke all playback grants and delete the recording if trust is ever lost.

eriknstr• 9 years ago

Very nice work on the website. It looks great and it's highly informative.

dsacco3• 9 years ago

This is a cool idea.

I expressed an upfront concern about reverse engineering in another comment directly to the OP (no DRM is foolproof, etc). After skimming through the whitepaper I'd like ask you a few implementation questions about the feasibility of client trust:

• Can you tell me how the device token/keys are stored locally and accessed by the application? I understand the crypto itself (e.g. libsodium), but I'd like to know how you're protecting data on the client insofar as you can.

• Can you tell me what your methodology is for determining if an application has been manipulated or altered?

• How are you specifically obfuscating sensitive data or otherwise making the DRM bypass difficult (e.g. obfuscating data in .so files, etc).

I'm not trying to grief you here, I just want to talk about technical protection mechanisms in place. To your credit, you explicitly admitted that DRM is fundamentally not a foolproof guarantee (though that's different from saying it's not effective...). I think your app would mitigate most scenarios where an ex would try and expose the other party.

nathankot7• 9 years ago

Hey no problem:

1. Uses Realm for storage, encrypted with their encryption api using a random key generated on first boot stored in iOS keychain.

2 & 3. It has some rudimentary jailbreak detection but obfuscation is still in the pipeline.

(Getting late here in Tokyo so may be until tomorrow before I answer follow up questions)

nickpsecurity• 9 years ago

It's a neat project. Others have fleshed out most details. It could even get uptake if spread on social media. Let me focus instead on the more devious possibilities.

"They are encrypted and saved on your devices. Recordings are never sent across the internet and never touch our servers. "

" it is impossible for third party attackers to gain access to your videos without local access to the network your devices are on (that includes us!)"

This claim is made by every developer of security/privacy apps when content stays on the device. It's actually false. They could embed a backdoor in the current or a future release that shares the files. Already requires networking permission when managing videos. Actually, a service like this getting extremely popular could lead to one of the largest leaks of nude pics in history. One person hacking the box containing the source/credentials, getting on the development team, or being the original author w/ trolling intent could subvert it into a giant store of pics/video. Get it to send the data back when on WiFi to avoid high, data bills. Thumbnails of videos sent first to filter out uninteresting parties.

I'm not accusing the author of this at all. I'm just assessing security risk from side I'm good at: subversion. The subversion risk here is spectacularly above average as a network effects developing around this app lead to many eggs in one basket that's probably easy to grab. Or was until the author read my comment and beefed up security in a panic. ;)

terhechte• 9 years ago

Great idea, fantastic execution, I hope you will succeed with this. I'd extend the usage scenario to picture sharing though.

mosselman• 9 years ago

I find it odd how people are hating on the idea here, while this could obviously be a lot better than the alternative... you know unencrypted video files that someone can access whenever they want.

The concerns I'd have with this myself would be that I'd have to trust the website. As it is I trust my spouse a lot more than some cloud service and I don't expect that to change.

kristerv2• 9 years ago

yeah +1 to this. Perhaps Rumuki is just a new material source for pornhub? :D

roywiggins• 9 years ago

At least if it's unencrypted then there's no sense of security, false or not. You know exactly how vulnerable you are.

With this app, you don't might assume you're less vulnerable than you really are.

hkjgkjy• 9 years ago

Which is why I leave my door unlocked.

ambicapter2• 9 years ago

People are shitting on this the same they way shat on Snapchat-on technical merits. I don't think those merits really hurt Snapchat in the end though.

xkxx• 9 years ago

Not everybody is in a monogamous relationship. Is it possible to use the app for more than two devices (i.e. more than two people)?

shiado• 9 years ago

This is a really cool concept. But ultimately you cannot get past the analog hole. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole

userbinator• 9 years ago

At least until we have some sort of mind-control technology, which would probably be used for far creepier purposes if/when it did come into existence.

But indeed for now, that analog hole can still be... penetrated. ;-)

saycheese3• 9 years ago

From the FAQs:

How do I know my partner won't abuse my trust?
You can't. However with Rumuki you have the discretion to only grant playbacks when you can keep an eye on them. You also have the option to revoke all playback grants and delete the recording if trust is ever lost.

mvdwoord• 9 years ago

Which completely eliminates the use for this app. At least in the sense it is marketed for. If you only want to show the movie when you keep an eye on the one you're showing it to, just show it from your own phone. But I guess the whole point of sexy movies is to be able to watch them away from your partner.

If you do trust the other party, I don't see how this app adds anything but complications. Don't get me wrong, I guess there are some practical applications for the underlying technology and from the looks of it, this seems pretty well engineered and designed. The advertised use case just does not make any sense to me at all.

drharby• 9 years ago

not even analog nowadays - literally spinning up any broadcasting software and one play-back later generates copyright-free digital repro.

swalsh2• 9 years ago

Reminds of that time someone invented dropbox, and one of the top comments was "For a Linux user, you can already build such a system yourself quite trivially by getting an FTP account, mounting it locally with curlftpfs, and then using SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem. From Windows or Mac, this FTP account could be accessed through built-in software."

emodendroket5• 9 years ago

To my mind it's a bit different in that this guy is saying the software can't actually guarantee what it's supposed to, and not that it could be accomplished with more trouble.

beagle32• 9 years ago

Totally irrelevant. The response to Dropbox you describe was "meh, easily done with existing tools". The analog hole response is "no app can provide what users would assume this app provides"

I think the comparison to Snapchat is more relevant: Snapchat is expected to provide only temporary access, but cannot guarantee that. This did not impede snapchat's growth, and might not really be an issue for rumuki; however, the use context is different so the comparison is not very informative.

juskrey4• 9 years ago

Too bad QuickTime lets anyone do iPhone screen video capture.

saycheese3• 9 years ago

Related white paper:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g3TQsyCVHT8Z5vzqXiOJ0mZx...

nmat• 9 years ago

It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it will work in practice. These moments happen naturally because the couple trusts in each other. Convincing my girlfriend to download a specific app so that we can film something is a bit odd.

People don't care that much about how things are encrypted or about complex security mechanisms, they want something that is easy to use. Snapshat is easy to use for example. Everyone knows that a snap can be saved like everybody knows that I can film a phone playing a video. Given that the practical security of both apps are the same, people will go for ease of use and Snapshat wins there.

ciex• 9 years ago

I agree with you, not only because couples do indeed trust each other, but also because it may come off as mistrusting to ask your s.o. to use something like this.

However, I think there might be a market for this with casual hookups. In these situations, you may want to let someone access private videos/pictures, but don't trust them enough to just send it, especially if your face is included. Receivers might also be more inclined to pay. Additionally, while I think it would be acceptable in this situation to ask someone to install an app, the makers of this have to take extra care to ensure that this looks serious and doesn't come off as a scam.

pmcpinto• 9 years ago

I agree, in the "heat" of the moment nobody remembers if the video end up being shared with somebody else without consent.

sarreph• 9 years ago

Forgive me, nmat, but 'Snapshat' sounds like a niche spin-off app and a missed opportunity for those wanting to share something else of a private nature. :)

petra• 9 years ago

> I can film a phone playing a video.

Maybe it's possible to make things somewhat harder.

Maybe the front camera can detect that and make it harder to do, or just covertly capture that and enable some legal process. Or encode a code of the user's phone for that purpose.

Also i remember certain format for images encoded in a certain format that when you try to capture them, you get only part of the pixels and lots of noise. Maybe something like this noise injection could be added to videos ?

sametmax• 9 years ago

If you film something you want to keep for yourself with a phone, you already lost. Film with a camera with no network communication, and keep the only physical copy in a safe.

voidabhi• 9 years ago

"Your content is never stored on, or sent to our servers."

Are you kidding me? How will you get funded?

swalsh2• 9 years ago

Why does every app need to get funding?

always_good3• 9 years ago

I think "a prenup for home videos" might be the worst marketing angle possible. It sounds like a legal contract.

But, worse, it makes it sound like it's only something you should use if you don't trust the other person.

Instead, they should market it as "2fa for sex tapes" rather than a trust issue by itself and point to things like "the fappening" icloud social engineering hack.

I can't imagine many people using this otherwise.

Also, don't forget that your target audience is mostly women who bear the majority of the shaming for a leaked video instead of high-fives. "Don't be the next Jennifer Lawrence" is going to be more effective marketing.

ambicapter2• 9 years ago

I find it funny you think "2fa" is more accessible than "prenup". Call me when I hear "2fa" in a hit rap song.

always_good3• 9 years ago

Kanye can mention prenup all he wants.

Nobody enters prenuptial agreements for various difficult reasons, not because they don't hear it in rap music.

TeMPOraL• 9 years ago

Maybe Monzy one day.

http://www.monzy.com/intro/killdashnine_lyrics.html

http://www.monzy.com/intro/pimpinglemma_lyrics.html

jonathan-kosgei• 9 years ago

+1 for pointing out "keep your private videos private/safe, from third-parties " would be a better marketing angle

gregshap2• 9 years ago

i agree there's an angle they are missing that is basically peace of mind in case someone hacks your iCloud account

dsjoerg• 9 years ago

Instead it should be called "encryption for couples".

"Prenups" are about when couples disagree. Rumuki, by contrast, is for couples that do agree. The video can only be unlocked when both of a couple agree to unlock it.

I understand I'm spinning a bit here but I think it's good spin. It's encryption for couples!

andkon• 9 years ago

I really strongly agree that the current messaging suggests that you should only use it if you don't trust the other person, and that it's at least partly caused by the 'prenup' language. But as a tagline, "2fa for sex tapes" doesn't really get you to a positive message.

An alternative: "The safest way to share your most intimate moments." It takes what is a deeply troubling problem (revenge porn) — and turns it into an opportunity for deeper intimacy with your partner. Then hit em with value props:

* Protect your intimate videos from hackers — the videos can only be accessed on specific devices.

* Get control over your image. Share your videos as few or as many times as you'd like, and simply delete your video from your Rumuki app to remove access immediately, forever.

* Make security the default. Sent videos can be seen once. Unless you say so, no hacker, ex, or snoop can open it again.

mrtksn• 9 years ago

As you said the current marketing message implies distrust and sounds like an app for the mafia dealings.

If this was my app, I probably will stress that it is against friends and families that may mess with your phone. I would skip the overly complicated technical explanation and the jargon and just say that it needs the other phone to play the video, so you don't have to worry about your SO cheeky friends.

threeseed• 9 years ago

It's bizarre. Why is this focused just on sex tapes ?

There are many, many reasons why viewing private videos that require two people to approve is useful. Even during legal negotiations or confidential meetings. Two lawyers could hold the keys for example.

zoom6628• 9 years ago

I could see hits being a great tool for startups and others where multiple authorizations needed for sharing information on a device.

And for those in USofA this could be very helpful for protecting data when asked for passwords by CBP because they wont be able to authorise from the other device!

nathankot7• 9 years ago

Thanks guys, this reply thread has some really good feedback. The tagline actually used to be 'a condom for your sex tapes' (hence the big camera illustration,) but it got swapped out over time as it seemed a bit of a 'strong' word.

Going to deeply consider the angle moving forward :)

mentos• 9 years ago

what about something like "LoveLocker" or "LoveLocket" ?

tregeagle• 9 years ago

An awesome idea.

The marketing feels like it is targeting men rather than women. I suspect women would be the group who would benefit the most from this app.

ivanhoe• 9 years ago

if it's shown on the screen it can be copied, so in the end it's again all about trusting that person. Still this type of protection is cool as it makes it harder for accidents to happen, or if phone gets stolen it gives you some level of protection.

WheelsAtLarge• 9 years ago

Great idea, I know it's hard to enforce 100% due to the analog hole but I think it has a future. Even a little enforcement is better than none. My suggestion is to give each video a time to expire. You should also get someone, with a good security reputation,to do a security audit on the encryption that way you can claim 100% encryption security.

napolux• 9 years ago

This is so f++king cool. But it will never work, like wonderfully explained by https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629076

spaceboy• 9 years ago

Even though web beacons / trackers like Google Analytics are fairly harmless, I still wouldn't trust them in this app because they often sit close to the main app's code and can be MITM'd to do bad things like send back snippets of a recording, or metadata about a recording like the name of the video file. That is, of course if this app has such beacons. I haven't sat between the traffic of this app (ab)using Burp Suite or Fiddler[2] to give a proper opinion

[1] https://portswigger.net/burp/

[2] http://www.telerik.com/fiddler

jasonlingx• 9 years ago

Unless you're a porn star you're likely worse off using this if it makes you feel safer making a sex tape...

JepZ• 9 years ago

Reminds me of MC Frontalot - Secrets from the future https://frontalot.bandcamp.com/album/secrets-from-the-future

tedmiston• 9 years ago

A multi-person key is interesting.

In practice, however, any system like this, Snapchat, etc is easily defeated with a USB cable and QuickTime's record device screen feature. I suppose it could be useful to others depending on your "threat model", but generally it offers no protection from a savvy computer user after you've unlocked it once.

Edit: Not sure why the downvotes. This is completely correct and you can test it yourself with any iOS app. I've added more explanation to clarify.

tambourine_man• 9 years ago

I agree with the consensus here that the marketing angle is delicate and may need work, but these is genius and the landing page is very nicely done.

The image of the two phones on top of each other is illustrative and just a little bit suggestive, which is clever and tasteful IMO.

Good job.

kazinator• 9 years ago

Only two keys?

The lack of threesome (and beyond) support shows somewhat of a lack of vision.

brod• 9 years ago

gold

socrates1998• 9 years ago

I like it, but I don't see people paying for it. Your market is mainly women in relationships. I don't know how you would get them to download it and actually use it.

The best marketing angle would be to get a high profile celeb to get behind it, maybe one that has had a sex tape leak.

Honestly, even then, I don't know how much they would use it.

It sounds sexist, but women (on a large scale) just aren't into this type of security thing.

Women would rely on the relationship and the trust built up into it to make sure their sex tapes don't leak.

Honestly, I really like this type of thing for sensitive business stuff or other security oriented material.

You make the boss/owner/manager the guy with one key and then he can sort of decide who has the other key on a need to know basis.

I really like the idea, but the application use is just off in my opinion.

jimnotgym2• 9 years ago

Isn't the market actually guys who are trying to convince a girl to trust them?

RRRA• 9 years ago

would be nice if it was a n of m keys. Could be useful to film in a protest but only be able to unlock it with more people from the news room while still syncing it to them.

JackC• 9 years ago

Two thoughts:

- I think I would sell this as a private camera app ("protect you and your partner from prying eyes"), rather than by emphasizing the two-party crypto angle ("protect you from your partner"). Like, make the front-line features be: "it's a camera where each photo album is protected by a secret PIN, and if someone takes your phone but doesn't know the PIN, they can't tell the album exists! Oh, and if you want to you can share the album with someone else who has the app, but you can always delete something from the album and it'll be deleted from the shared version as well."

This way you're selling it as something that's better than the built in camera app, with some bonus safer-sharing features that will just happen to reduce privacy violations in practice, instead of emphasizing the distrust-of-your-partner-solved-by-easily-hacked-crypto thing. When someone asks their partner to install, it's not "because I don't trust you" but "because it's more private for us."

- As a lawyer, I think the legal-prenup-built-into-app approach would be pretty interesting. For example, right now the way US law works, it's much, much easier to get revenge porn taken down if you happen to have been the one holding the camera, than if it was your partner holding the camera. If you were holding the camera you own the copyright, and we have robust legal-technical tools for copyright takedowns, whereas we only have patchy state-based laws around invasion of privacy.

So could we have camera apps that actually reallocate the rights between the photographer and subject? Like imagine a shutter button with a bunch of fine print like, "by pressing this button I express an intent to share authorship of the resulting work with all human subjects portrayed, and agree that consent of all authors must be obtained to authorize any copy."

I'm not an expert and not sure what would be possible, but it would be interesting to talk to legal advocates in the revenge porn area and ask what legal agreements people could have entered beforehand that would have best protected them, and see if any of them could cleanly be engineered into the UX of a private camera app -- or even into Snapchat et al.

drdaeman• 9 years ago

Just curious. Why encrypt one key with another instead of using some sort of secret sharing scheme (e.g. Shamir's)?

cocktailpeanuts• 9 years ago

This is a great idea. Now I can tell girls we're all safe because we're using this app, and record as much as I want.

Then come home and use my iPad to record playback. Perfect plan! Win-Win!

org3432• 9 years ago

Although a bit flawed for it's current use case, it's a great idea, there are likely many other use cases for mutual authorization.

anjc• 9 years ago

This is a good idea. Ignore the people saying it doesn't have a use.

rdl• 9 years ago

This is an interesting idea and a real problem.

Not sure how best to market it. Maybe "keep access within a couple" -- emphasize protection from outsiders, people who gain access to one of the couple's devices temporarily, etc.

Then, as an aside, make it so either party can irrevocably end access at any time.

Don't mention "break up" so prominently. "Pre-nup" has lots of bad connotations.

Would be cool if you could cover some other files, too (text, etc.). A way for people to collaborate on something and then delete drafts. Video and pictures are obviously a lot of it, though.

xrd2• 9 years ago

I invented this four years ago, minus the crypto. http://web.archive.org/web/20110210234301/http://nakedescrow...

xrd2• 9 years ago

My ScankScan technology was going to be huge.

bussiere• 9 years ago

And it's still possible to film the phone no ?

jwatte• 9 years ago

Because cell phones don't support screen capture?

(No, wait, they do!)

ommunist• 9 years ago

Delete the key and you face indefinite jail in the US.

romanpoet• 9 years ago

You know, this sounds absurd, but I like it.

nkkollaw• 9 years ago

Even if the payoff didn't make me think this was a template contract for sex videos, I don't get it.

The problem with these kinds of videos isn't trusting the other party in the present, but in the future.

What stops one from doing a screencast of the video, and then publishing it months later when you break up?

epynonymous2• 9 years ago

pretty awesome, and simple.

epynonymous2• 9 years ago

nathan, what did you use for the "how it works page" for the animation, that's pretty nifty

maruhan2• 9 years ago

Can't you just screen-record it when you first get the access?

espeed• 9 years ago

Initially I thought this was going to be a mechanism for mutually assured destruction, not mutually assured deletion.

codeisawesome• 9 years ago

This doesn't solve the problem it's marketing to: people can record the screen as soon as the 7 day access is granted. It makes that problem worse as well, if someone doesn't consider this possibility and trusts blindly.

I agree with the other comments that this should be marketed as 2FA instead.

bbcbasic• 9 years ago

I wonder how this plays with the 5th amendment issues mentioned here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13629728.

Show HN: Rumuki, a prenup for sex tapes

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