Colorado Stores Throw Open Their Doors to Pot Buyers

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/us/colorado-stores-throw-open-their-doors-to-pot-buyers.html?hp&_r=0

by danso • 13 years ago

159 185 13 years ago

nytimes.com

rwmj• 13 years ago

I wonder how many more years before gutless UK politicians consider proper cannabis regulation?

EliRivers• 13 years ago

Usually follows the US by a couple of years.

vyrotek• 13 years ago

"Skeptical federal authorities are also paying attention. Although marijuana remains illegal under federal law, the Justice Department has given a tentative approval for Colorado and Washington to move ahead with regulating marijuana. But it warned that federal officials could intervene if the state regulations failed to keep the drug away from children, drug cartels or federal property, and out of other states."

I have a feeling there are going to be people who ruin it for everyone else.

Kequc• 13 years ago

The "out of other states" part is what is obviously going to do it. It's just like guns, you can't keep guns out of one state if you can buy them freely in a neighbouring state. It's the same thing here.

wavefunction5• 13 years ago

The surrounding states are already awash with cannabis (even and especially Utah). Right-thinking people just have to keep browbeating the prohibitionists back into their corners until they can't do anything any more. I'm the first person to try to appeal to another's sense of logic, but logic is obviously not what the Prohibitionists are operating on.

Prohibition has failed, failed spectacularly and expensively and there is simply no room to try some sort of half-measure to appease those that think it can still work. These sorts of people simply need to understand that their opinion doesn't matter at all and will be completely discounted, sad to say.

MWil8• 13 years ago

Well it's a little different than guns. (Old man voice) "They don't grow on trees, you know!"

If it's couched in terms of black/white:pass/fail for keeping it out of other states then it's doomed to fail and the DOJ will come down hard. But Colorado shouldn't be in charge of watching the movement of stuff that's legal to own and sell inside it's jurisdiction. It's duty is to regulate how to own and sell inside the same area. Period. It would, however, be the job of neighbouring states that didn't want it to spill over to maintain their borders appropriately and of course it falls on individual citizens to respect the borders.

Where it differs from guns is, unlike Supreme Court reasoning to the contrary, if there was adequate intrastate supply b/c of the ability to maintain personal plants then interstate exchange shouldn't be much of an issue anymore (obviously that's a gradual process).

ojbyrne2• 13 years ago

All of those things were possible with medical marijuana.

code_duck6• 13 years ago

Yes, it would be really nice if people and journalists commenting on this would understand and acknowledge that cannabis has been widely available legally in Colorado for years, both through legal home growing and at retail outlets.

sliverstorm4• 13 years ago

It's a grand old tradition, ain't it.

betterunix• 13 years ago

I would be more concerned about federal authorities going in regardless of how well state regulations are working, just because some far-right politician needs to show voters how tough-on-crime he is.

etanazir• 13 years ago

We really need to keep drugs out of the hands of the cartels.

theorique2• 13 years ago

If a person or small group can grow it legally themselves, it's hard to imagine cartels cornering the market.

Moderately expensive, legal products like tea or (culinary) mushrooms are sold at markets without much fanfare.

mkhpalm• 13 years ago

Truth is, every law is based on people who ruin it for everybody else. That is how marijuana got outlawed in the first place. People has this belief that we are somehow rewarded for passing thousands of new laws every year. The resulting authoritarian society is just the unintended consequence. Nobody actually picks authoritarianism on purpose.

lukifer• 13 years ago

Dig a little deeper on the history of anti-cannabis laws, and you'll find they're rooted primarily in fear of Mexicans and blacks. Sometimes authoritarianism is the goal, not the side effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_J._Anslinger

auctiontheory• 13 years ago

People has this belief that we are somehow rewarded for passing thousands of new laws every year.

The people in Congress are called "lawmakers." That's the problem right there. Even if society were to reach an ideal 100% perfect state, they'd still need to pass more laws to justify their jobs, so we'd soon be broken again.

baddox5• 13 years ago

Truth is, every law is based on people who ruin it for everybody else.

On the contrary, I think only unreasonable laws are based on people who ruin it for everybody else. Law banning murder and theft, for example, are reasonable and could exist in a world without murder and theft without effecting anyone. However, laws banning firearms or lock picks are unreasonable, and if implemented in a world without murder and theft would effect many people.

MichaelGG• 13 years ago

"federal property" - I'm sure the TSA at DIA will be stepping up their pot detection and nail plenty of unsuspecting tourists. I wonder if Colorado will put up a sign going towards the airport reminding people of federal law.

baddox5• 13 years ago

In the situation you're talking about, it would be the feds ruining it for everyone else.

philfreo• 13 years ago

I wonder what the web-based POS system they are using in that photo

thedudemabry2• 13 years ago

My employer, MMJMenu :)

chatmasta2• 13 years ago

Awesome. As the marijuana industry grows, so to will the industry for infrastructure supporting it, especially for compliance. I've been saying this for years. Cool to see a company executing on this opportunity.

JeffL• 13 years ago

Here's to the great idea of Federalism, and hoping that Colorado and Washington show everyone else the way forward.

squirejons2• 13 years ago

federalism, in reality, is really better exemplified by the unelected federal judges from ivy league law schools who decide the way we live our lives.

That is really what federalism is.

Democracy is what happens when the citizens of colorado and washington create their own laws to live by.

cdcarter2• 13 years ago

I believe he was referring to what we call New Federalism, or "states rights".

robobro• 13 years ago

Smoking a bowl to celebrate! :-)

icpmacdo• 13 years ago

Finally, I am certain once other states see the revenue they will follow suit in legalization.

danso• 13 years ago

FYI, why the man in the current lede photo is, well, at the top of the story: his purchase is a symbolic one, as he's a Iraq War veteran with PTSD http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/1/5263314/Sean-Azzariti-first...

wavefunction5• 13 years ago

It's disgraceful that our Veterans are treated the way they are. I have a few acquaintance who served several tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and the only thing that's allowed them to "reintegrate" back into peaceful civilian life has been illicit cannabis use. They live in Colorado so I'm hoping today is a great one for them.

k-mcgrady3• 13 years ago

> "“This is our dream,” said Kirstin Knouse, 24, who flew here from Chicago with her husband, Tristan, to take their first-ever marijuana vacation."

And there's some people already ruining it. I believe Amsterdam had this same problem. Drug tourism is not something cities want for many obvious reasons.

MWil8• 13 years ago

The laws that explicitly mention out-of-area residents might make people think otherwise.

utnick• 13 years ago

Actually, this is the opposite of ruining it.

Cities love to have tourists come, spend money, use hotels, etc

k-mcgrady3• 13 years ago

Yes but people who come explicitly for the drugs don't tend to be the best tourists. While not everyone will cause trouble there will undoubtedly be a few. It just depends on whether the towns are happy to put up with a few stoned idiots roaming the streets causing trouble for the extra money it brings in from the people not causing trouble.

paul• 13 years ago

Napa and Sonoma don't seem to mind the alcohol tourism.

plorkyeran• 13 years ago

Not really an equivalent scenario. If all you want to do is get drunk, there's no reason to go to Napa to do it, so while the average level of intoxication is probably higher, it's much less so that it would be if it was the only place you could legally buy alcohol.

ernestipark• 13 years ago

I understand the sentiment, but you forgot to include the rest of the paragraph:

> She said that she suffered from seizures and fibromyalgia, and her husband from post-traumatic stress, but that the couple had not been able to get medical marijuana at home. “We’re thinking about moving here because of it,” she said.

Maybe they're just making up excuses, but doesn't sound like these are a couple of 20 year olds just looking to get high in the middle of the day.

philangist• 13 years ago

Not that there's nothing wrong with that either.

k-mcgrady3• 13 years ago

I skimmed the article and have to admit I missed that part. My issue was tourism for the sake of getting high - which clearly doesn't apply here.

yesiamyourdad2• 13 years ago

It's been an open secret for years. The Denver Post published stats a couple years ago that showed that around 80% of the red card holders in CO were men age 25 and younger. If you remember from the health care debate, this is the healthiest population around.

It was dead simple to get a red card - go into one of the many shops advertising an on site doc, complain of chronic back pain (or PTSD if a veteran), and there you go. The hardest problem was finding a shop taking new patients, as the MMJ law capped the number of patients per provider.

ck2• 13 years ago

I'm curious what happens to the people who were surviving on the cash from selling it illegally.

Some of them are poor slobs. Some of them are organized crime.

Are they just going to try to sell it at a lower price since the police cannot tell where you got it from and might not even care anymore? Tax savings alone radically reduces the price.

dominotw• 13 years ago

Apparently its way way more cheap to buy it illegally(for now atleast). I am guessing it would not make much difference to those people.

jdkuepper• 13 years ago

The same profit margins exist for tobacco and alcohol, especially cities like NYC, but there are relatively few bootleggers in both markets. I think the legal risk significantly offsets the increase in price from taxation. But then again, cannabis differs from tobacco and alcohol in many ways in that an underground market has become highly developed. It will indeed be interesting to see...

codyb• 13 years ago

There's a lot of bootleggers for cigarettes in NYC. I've found many places, mainly in Brooklyn, that sell Virginia cigarettes. Big selections too!

Alcohol flows plentifully and relatively cheaply here though although I hear there are speak easies.

So I guess the moral is, if you tax it so much people are paying exorbitant amounts for it, you may end up creating a bootlegger's market, especially if you don't have to cross any national borders with the product.

seanalltogether• 13 years ago

There's also the consumer component. How many people would buy unbranded non-shrinkwrapped cigarettes off the back of a truck?

mrtksn• 13 years ago

why not? it would be just like selling contraband cigarettes for the small guy. the big shots probably can just move to another market since they have a know how of dealing illegal stuff.

nhebb• 13 years ago

I imagine that since part of the customer base is underage, the illegal market will still exist.

dscrd• 13 years ago

Are there illegal markets for booze and tobacco?

code_duck6• 13 years ago

This has already been tested with the medical setup. Many retail buyers continued to purchase their cannabis the way they were before, from their friends. That system had been in place for such a long time that people didn't feel the desire or need to change. Growers also found dispensaries to be a ready new group of wholesale buyers.

SwellJoe2• 13 years ago

They can now get a legal job selling it over the counter. They can get licensed and sell it legally via delivery or whatever (I don't know the regulations). They can leverage their growing operation into a legal business that sells to dispensaries. They can get a job in another field...though, the skills acquired through dealing illegal drugs aren't necessarily very marketable.

I dunno...but, we didn't, as a nation, mourn the end of bootlegging as a career option when alcohol prohibition ended. So, I'm not going to mourn the end of the small-time drug dealer (or the large scale cartel dealers, either).

MBCook• 13 years ago

If they have ever been caught and convicted, I bet they're not allowed to get a license.

chatmasta2• 13 years ago

When I was in Seattle this summer, there were dozens of people selling it in the park by Pike Place. I asked one of them what he was going to do when recreational marijuana was legalized, and he said "keep sellin'!"

heynk• 13 years ago

Does anyone know if Colorado is enforcing seed traceability? That is one of the rules according to Washington's I-502 (http://www.liq.wa.gov/publications/Marijuana/I-502/I-502_Dra... crtl-f "Traceability"). Theoretically, that means the Feds would be able to know where the pot came from if it was found out of state. If implemented effectively, that would negate some of the worry about the product ending up in the wrong hands.

thedudemabry2• 13 years ago

The state has implemented a seed-to-sale tracking system called MITS: http://www.mymits.com/

wavefunction5• 13 years ago

Plants can be grafted one onto another, sometimes cross-species. You can graft Cannabis onto grape vines for example.

Pro-growers can pretty much maintain the exact "same" plant for generations of plants.

Obviously this doesn't change the DNA "fingerprint" of the graft but it just shows the "seed to customer" tracing is a meaningless regulation.

code_duck6• 13 years ago

Indeed, most growers 'clone' their plants as a propagation technique (cuttings). This style, growing a mother plant from seed and then taking hundreds of cuttings which grow into full size plants, ensures consistency and is faster than starting each plant from seed. Growers often swap trimmings rather than seeds, and they're sold in dispensaries.

hondje• 13 years ago

Our laws are very friendly to the small homegrower, much like our laws on brewing. Nothing legally stops me and you from trading strains and seeds without telling anyone or registering anything. You can give freely if you dont charge, grow 6 plants per adult (3 budding), and all needed equipment is legal too. We've already had our first hemp crop, which was grown for as many seeds as possible, and many more acres are planned for next year. None of those strains are tracked either

jonknee3• 13 years ago

I'd assume that's like how they do tracking for medications--based on the packaging.

squirejons2• 13 years ago

in this discussion in the media, out of all the millions of words that are going to be written about pot legalization in WA and CO over the next few weeks, how many words are going to be devoted to the fact that in the states of washington and colorado pot was legalized because the citizens of those states are able to create their own laws?

Very few words will be devoted to that aspect of it, and those corporate media articles that do discuss it will speak negatively of it.

And because the media will not bring it up much, neither will comments online do so.

Well, except for my comments.

maxerickson• 13 years ago

They are hardly unique in that regard:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initiatives_and_referendums_in_...

(They both have direct and indirect initiative statutes, but plenty of other states have one or the other (with more states having the direct initiative, which is probably closest to your "citizens of those states are able to create their own laws"))

DonGateley• 13 years ago

The initiative process will continue to be problematic until it is restricted by the necessity of providing funding for any expenditures it mandates. Witness California.

mynameishere• 13 years ago

According to this the price will initially go up:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/12/30/high-prices-f...

...but since marijuana is literally a weed, why wouldn't the price eventually drop to something like that of tea? I mean, tea is harder to grow, process, and ship, and you can get it for 6 dollars a pound. Even the overpriced teavana stuff can go for as little as 40 dollars a pound.

oinksoft2• 13 years ago

Is medical grade tea a thing? It takes a lot of skill and either great weather or a big investment in indoor growing equipment to grow a single medical plant. Comparing tea and cannabis prices doesn't make much sense.

hollerith2• 13 years ago

Now stop that right now! :) I strongly doubt there is any such thing as "medical-grade" marijuana.

"Medical marijuana" refers to pot sold in such as way as to shield the buyer and seller from criminal liability (by requiring a prescription from a health-care provider). No official or semi-official body is holding this medical marijuana to any standard.

Heading off a potential nit: in the last year or two a new strain of pot much lower in THC and much higher in CDB has arrived on the scene, and some doctors are advising some patients to use that strain, but as far as I know, no one refers to that as medical marijuana.

lotharbot3• 13 years ago

The "tea" you get for 6 dollars a pound in the US is, generally speaking, the crumbs and fragments leftover from making actually good tea. Wouldn't surprise me if you could also eventually get crumb-and-fragment grade pot for 6 bucks a pound.

There's still a market for legitimately high grade tea (not Teavana). I'm interested to see what sort of market develops, over time, for legitimately high-grade MJ here in Colorado.

squintychino• 13 years ago

Could you recommend a good place online to order good "tea"? I'd seriously like to try some to get a sense of what real tea is suppose to taste like.

ItendToDisagree9• 13 years ago

Arn't even the highest grades of tea only about $40 an ounce though? Or am I missing some 'Primo Stuff' somewhere?

Alex3917• 13 years ago

since marijuana is literally a weed, why wouldn't the price eventually drop to something like that of tea?

It will, plus whatever extra for taxes and regulatory compliance. But it will be the same as with fruit, where what you see in stores are the A-grade products, and the B- and C-grade products get turned into food, beverages, industrial materials, etc.

shalmanese• 13 years ago

The difference that will be interesting is that the relative potency of the two drugs is completely different. At $6 a lb weed, the cost of a joint will be about 4 cents (3 cents for the rolling paper, 1 cent for the weed).

rbobby• 13 years ago

The price will drop significantly when large scale production occurs. Large scale production will be limited until the legal risks are known and quantified. For the near future federal law will continue to expose investors to a significant risk of imprisonment.

However, expect the price to drop moderately as legal sales expand and small "mom & pop" grow operations are replaced by more efficient moderate sized operations that are willing to accept the risk and have the cash on hand needed to bootstrap.

cookiecaper4• 13 years ago

There's still significant risk in grow operations because it's still a federal crime. The Obama administration has chosen not to enforce that law for the time being, but that can change on a moment's notice, and is likely to change if a conservative attains office (which will probably happen in 2016). Furthermore, even when done legally, there is significant regulatory burden on a state-sanctioned grow.

You're correct that ultimately marijuana will probably be really cheap, but we have to wait for the rest of the drug enforcement apparatus to become irrelevant.

rmc4• 13 years ago

Hang on, can you explain this to a European? How can something be legal and illegal?!

dobbsbob2• 13 years ago

I would imagine customs will single out anybody declaring their destination as Colorado for extra harassment too.

elif• 13 years ago

Actually, in spite of Eric holder's memo stating otherwise, the raids have continued. As recently as November: 17 raids in one day in CO.

sliverstorm4• 13 years ago

I like to compare it to beer rather than tea. You can make it for dirt cheap, but based on some research months ago, growing truly quality stuff is an art. So, like beer, I expect there will be Coors MJ, and there will be Microbrewery MJ. The former a baseline of reasonable quality for the price, the latter far nicer than anything John Doe can grow in his basement, probably complete with hydroponics and sophisticated monitoring.

But for the time being, it will be expensive because of risk, ramp times, capital investment, etc.

scardine• 13 years ago

I don't know where you got your information. Yes, hydroponics and growing under artificial light is pretty hard - but farming MJ in the open is easy, the thing grows like grass.

sesquipedantic• 13 years ago

To skeptics, it marked a grand folly, one they said would lead to higher drug use among teenagers

They don't know what the proper incidence of usage is. Meanwhile, we all need to know why some people become addicts and others don't

theorique2• 13 years ago

So it looks like there may be chronic price increases, at least until some kind shop owners open up. Once the stores start spreading like weeds, prices should come down.

puppetmaster3• 13 years ago

We have same in Silicon Valley: http://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=medical+marijuana+dispe...

MattLaroche• 13 years ago

Except in California it's nominally medicinal, and in Colorado it's recreational.

squozzer• 13 years ago

US invasion imminent.

notastartup• 13 years ago

BC Liberals listen up! BC bud is the last good thing remaining besides the shit job market and housing bubble. Take note of the Southern brethrens and emulate, tax, pay off the Olympic debt. If Vancouver does not do this, all the tech people will leave!

mschuster914• 13 years ago

So, now that pot is legalized, how will the police fill all those costly new jails with black people now?

Criminalize them just for being black?

nathos• 13 years ago

The black population is just 4.1% of Colorado, vs. the national average of 13.1%

mschuster914• 13 years ago

I'm non-US so I dont have any idea where to obtain detailed statistics - but does anyone have data about how many blacks in Colorado are in state/fed jail for pot compared to the whole US?

And as a side question: do private jails exist in Colorado, or is the jail system in state hands?

wavefunction5• 13 years ago

Fortunately there's always meth :(

mschuster914• 13 years ago

...and a shitload of other drugs. While white people can get away with pretty much anything.

cookiecaper4• 13 years ago

It's disappointing to see race baiting on HN. Save it for reddit.

mschuster914• 13 years ago

I'm sorry if some consider my comment offensive - but it is, at least as tons of reports suggest, the pure truth that vastly more blacks get fucked up by US justice system than white people.

And this is unacceptable for a self-named "world leader".

Multics4• 13 years ago

More acceptance would presumably result in more clinical trials of cannabis.

I'm aware of some small scale studies which have shown promise for diseases such as IBD (Crohn's/ulcerative colitis). How it stands presently some sections of society (global) suffer unnecessarily.

I'm lead to believe that some substances in cannabis are neuroprotective; This contrasts to something like alcohol, which causes neurological damage.

And from what I've read, it can also inhibit angiogenesis within tumours. Thus, may be legitimately useful against cancer.

It's hard for me to make assertions with sources, as this is merely what I've read over the years. It simply hasn't been worth the time to investigate further, given its legal status. But from what I can gather, outlawing of a drug with low toxicity and potential medical benefit is an absolute travesty for humanity! It's tantamount to low-grade torture by the state on people who have an illness that can be, to some degree, ameliorated. There also seems to be a pandering to special interests (alcohol, tobacco, and the prison industry). And a disregard for people's freedom.

Some may not like the idea of Cannabis being legal, but if it becomes a substitute for alcohol and tobacco, it could turn out to be a health boon (given its low toxicity). Not to mention the saving of lives via a reduction in organised crime.

It's a shame this didn't happen earlier, and in more places!

ItendToDisagree9• 13 years ago

More research seems like a really good side benefit if it happens.

Inhaling burning plant matter is still bad for you. There are alternate means of ingesting the compounds in Marijuana though.

Multics4• 13 years ago

Vaping, edibles, and tea. At least that's what pop culture says.

chrishynes• 13 years ago

"This contrasts to something like alcohol, which causes neurological damage"...

Not true, except for long term extremely heavy drinking.

Moderate alcohol consumption is neuroprotective.

goggles99• 13 years ago

It will be very interesting to see the numbers in the next 5 years. Numbers of those who smoke pot vs who don't. Lets see how successful financially each group are. How much they contribute to society. It will also be interesting to see which group goes further in school or their career. Which group turns out more long term "happy" people. Which group breaks more laws ETC.

I already know the answers to all of these questions, but it will interesting to see it become a provable, statistical reality.

ItendToDisagree9• 13 years ago

What are the answers? Is there a back of the book? Give up the goods!

This (OP) is one of the funniest HN submissions I've ever seen for comments. What does this have to do with HN?

rgbrgb• 13 years ago

It's cool that you know before you've seen the numbers. Perhaps you could share the answer for us non-prophets. Also, what other wisdom can you impart?

xacaxulu3• 13 years ago

Colorado, unlike a large number of US states, seems to take crazy things like simple economics and overwhelmingly positive scientific research into account when drafting laws. Here in the south we prefer to use 1950's mores, Jim Crow era law enforcement priorities and 3000 year old Judean religious texts when writing our laws. Bravo Colorado!

MWil8• 13 years ago

With our luck, the fed gov't will announce that states can choose to expand marijuana laws and they will pay for the infrastructure and it'll be just like Medicaid!

bobby1004• 13 years ago

- There are no successful clinical trials on marijuana by the FDA.

For someone who praises science, your statements really show your ignorance.

Multics4• 13 years ago

If you check PubMed, you'll see some.

ItendToDisagree9• 13 years ago

Isn't that because it was scheduled as illegal? Circular logic is fun!

xacaxulu3• 13 years ago

I don't limit my scientific research to US Studies only since the political climate that controls funding is a very important factor. You might also want to research how the DEA and NIDA regularly hinder any applications for research showing the positive benefits of marijuana. I wouldn't equate lack of FDA studies as an indicator of marijuana's positive/negative effects.

chc• 13 years ago

Are there successful clinical trials on M&Ms? We're talking about recreational use here, not prescriptions.

Zigurd• 13 years ago

What's your vested interest? Drug law enforcement or treating addiction to a non-addictive drug quackery?

huherto• 13 years ago

http://www.npr.org/2013/11/11/244527860/forget-the-50-states...

My guess is that people in Colorado tend to be more libertarian. They don't want government interference, and at the same time they don't follow the religious culture in the deep south.

sliverstorm4• 13 years ago

There's a little bit of libertarian undercurrent there, but I believe it's more of an emergent phenomenon from the mixing of independent-by-nature left- and right-wing voters. Colorado, with large swaths of rural areas as well as big cities, is rather purple.

Put together left- and right-wing voters, and you get either statism or libertarianism, and Colorado leans towards libertarianism. Or so my theory goes.

kbd3• 13 years ago

...and 3000 year old Judean religious texts...

FWIW there's nothing in the Bible about throwing people in jail for alcohol (still baffled the US ever passed alcohol prohibition) or drugs. I'd argue against prohibition on Christian grounds as well as other grounds.

Crito4• 13 years ago

Unsurprisingly, Christians frequently disagree with each other on matters of religion.

CamperBob2• 13 years ago

Your first mistake is in your assumption that Christianity-based legislation and social behavior in general have anything to do with what's in the Bible.

gdubs• 13 years ago

A lot of mentions of airports in the first few paragraphs -- no doubt a foreshadow of articles to come on the DOJ.

Colorado Stores Throw Open Their Doors to Pot Buyers

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