FlyKly Smart Wheel

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/flykly/flykly-smart-wheel

by BerislavLopac • 13 years ago

324 189 13 years ago

soperj• 13 years ago

What's to stop someone from just taking the wheel when it's locked? Or removing the wheel and taking the rest of the bike?

kevinastone• 13 years ago

Their "Find my iPhone" style tracking and alerting presumably.

mparlane• 13 years ago

Via bluetooth? I think not...

kamjam11• 13 years ago

But the iPhone (normally) has a 3G/4G data connection.

technotony• 13 years ago

Nothing... you'd still want to lock this up to something. And at $600 for just the wheel that's increasing your chance of it being stolen as well, bikes get stolen far too often.

r-s• 13 years ago

It looks like this wheel is using a standard quick release. If that's the case it would be fairly easy to take out. Couple of options though:

- When locking the bike, run the lock through the wheel. Yes, someone could still cut the spokes and steal the main hub, but this is going to take q fair amount of effort.

- Have a bolt on version, lots of older bikes, or bikes which use a horizontal dropout design already have this. Typically they use 15mm wrenches, but there are some alternative sizes (some even use hex keys).

Looks like a pretty cool concept. I personally would prefer a model which only gained energy from the rider when coasting down hills or braking, then could release the energy at the riders discretion. Plugging a bike into an external power source isn't something that interests me.

StavrosK• 13 years ago

I personally would prefer a model which only gained energy from the rider when coasting down hills or braking

But then you gain nothing, on average.

FlyKly8• 13 years ago

The quick release in the video and the photos is used only for demonstrational purposes in the prototype phase. The final product will come with anti-theft screws that can only be used with a custom made wrench.

Of course the features of locking the motor and tracking the Smart Wheel via GPS are still helpfull in case someone still decides to steal it.

Zigurd2• 13 years ago

It's an interesting idea. But there are some big obstacles:

1. I question the need for a retrofit product. There are many mature e-bike designs on the market. I doubt it would be hard to find an ODM or CM that could sell you a good design off the shelf.

2. Many e-bikes have removable batteries. You can charge them at work. This doesn't look like it could.

3. Maybe the e-bike isn't the sweet spot. Maybe a slightly larger electric scooter is it. Or maybe an even bigger three-wheeler like Toyota has shown.

4. Outside of China, where gas scooters are prohibited in many (all?) cities, e-bike have not caught on (though I see quite a lot of them in Manhattan, still not enough to be mainstream)

eksith3• 13 years ago

Retrofitting avoids the problem of needless waste and cost when it comes to the vast quantity of existing bikes out there. I don't want to buy a new bike if I can avoid it so replacing a wheel is quite a bit more appealing. I can't imagine that I'm alone in this.

In fact, I'd argue most people would be willing to try this if only because it only involves replacing a wheel. It probably won't cost nearly as much as a new bike either so folks who couldn't otherwise afford it can purchase.

Zigurd2• 13 years ago

Of all the bike shops in Boston there is only one that I know of that sells wheels for older bikes. There are multiple widths between the dropouts and for the gear cluster for 5, 6, 7, etc. speed hubs. There are multiple rim diameters. There are multiple spoke patterns.

That alone makes it unlikely that, even if you are not alone, there aren't enough of you to matter when the FOB price of a basic e-bike is about $300.

Retrofit markets for anything less permanent than a house are very very tough.

r00fus2• 13 years ago

Plus, the target market doesn't likely have storage space for both their existing bike and a pedal assist model. If I'm a city-dwelling hacker, I'd prefer buying a wheel over a scooter. I just pulled up listings on Amazon for inexpensive e-bike pedal assists, and they're mostly largish scooter-types that take a significant footprint to store compared to a bike which I can hang on my wall.

Plus, having a wheel allows me to continue using my tires, frame, accessories and everything I love about my current commuter bike.

snogglethorpe• 13 years ago

Electrically-assisted bikes are quite popular in Japan, although the Japanese bike market is so huge they're probably still only a small proportion of the total.

Your concept of what an "e-bike" is seems a bit of out sync with this product. This isn't a scooter, or a scooter-replacement, or something you use for drag-racing with your friends. This is a modest assist for a normal bicycle that helps take the edges off normal bicycling. When you're hauling two kids and a load of groceries up a hill, a little bit of help can be very appealing... but it doesn't have to be a replacement for human effort.

If anything, this product seems to fit in a space beneath existing e-bike designs, which might be more powerful, etc, but exist in far smaller numbers than regular bikes, and so offer far fewer choices as to design, style, quality, etc. By making it possible to just choose a regular bike and "add electricity," they've given the consumer who wants the convenience of an electric assist a huge increase in choice.

kevinpet2• 13 years ago

There are plenty of retrofit options. This is just a retrofit in a shiny iphone inspired design and a price tag to match.

kamjam11• 13 years ago

Petrol assisted bikes, where a bike is retrofitted with a small 30cc engine, is hugely popular around Buenos Aires. I saw lots of them when I visited recently and they were fairly cheap apparently.

nraynaud• 13 years ago

In France they are catching up I think.

kamaal3• 13 years ago

This problem is more to with technology than acceptability of e-bikes. The situation is like people complaining there is no demand for touch screen phones and they won't take off. And Apple comes along and shows them the iPhone.

The fact is you need to do it right. And its not just about the pedal assist. You need good battery performance, long lasting battery life and efficient motors. At the other end you need a good control system on board, which might more or less function as an ECU. When the pedal assist is no longer functioning or dead, its weight and friction shouldn't become a burden on the cyclist.

In all, if you look at it you are looking for an amazing electric driven engine of sort with a sound control system on board. I don't think people are putting too much mind into that. We are where cars where in 18th century.

These are the kind of projects which help local commute a lot. If you are commuting frequently to pick up groceries, or drive up to the local park for a jog, or anything local for that matter. You absolutely don't have to use your car, or your motor cycle. This would do.

We are just not doing it right, may be we are not serious about it. But someday, someone will come along as give something so awesome. We won't be able to resist ourselves to using it.

jessaustin11• 13 years ago

...where cars where [sic] in 18th century.

Where was that? I'm not aware of any vaguely car-like device developed between 1700 and 1801.

DanBlake• 13 years ago

This has been done before, not sure why it warrants a kickstarter.

The Copenhagen wheel has been around for around ~5 years and looks identical to this, sans the GPS.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/16/mits-copenhagen-wheel-tur... http://www.soullessmachine.com/2013/01/the-copenhagen-wheel-...

forrestthewoods• 13 years ago

Because the Copenhagen Wheel isn't a thing you can buy. http://senseable.mit.edu/copenhagenwheel/index.html

kamjam11• 13 years ago

The FlyKly looks surprisingly similar! Anybody know why the Copenhagen Wheel isn't a thing you can buy yet? Was the technology not mature enough?

From their video it looks very similar with phone app, maps, traffic etc. I wonder how many patents they have registered on this thing. Does the Kickstarter account for that?

FlyKly8• 13 years ago

We're aware of the many similarities people will want to draw with Copenhagen Wheel but allow me to introduce some important differences as well:

1) Smart Wheel introduces a brand new electric motor that is thinner and lighter (and more efficient) than any other before it. Copenhagen Wheel uses regular rotary motor that's heavy and cumbersome, not to mention it's not a replaceable wheel - it comes together with the whole bicycle.

2) The GPS module might seems like the only thing that separates the Smart Wheel from the Copenhagen Wheel (it's not) but it's the difference of how they use this data that makes all the difference. Smart Wheel uses GPS data to learn about your cycling habits and routines and then suggests on how to improve them. This data can also be used to help improving the cycling experiences of other people. Copenhagen Wheel measures noise and air pollution levels and uses them for statistical purposes only.

3) Smart Wheel is opensource which means our users will be available to develop their own apps and other tools to find new innovations to using the Smart Wheel. We're already working closely with Pebble Watch and other similar devices are in the works, too.

4) Last but not least, despite being around for ~5 years, Copenhagen Wheel is still only a prototype with no sign of ever being available to the market. Smart Wheel is becoming available in May 2014.

kamjam11• 13 years ago

...not to mention it's not a replaceable wheel - it comes together with the whole bicycle.

Are you sure about that? http://senseable.mit.edu/copenhagenwheel/wheel.html

The Copenhagen Wheel turns the bike you already own, quickly and easily into an electric bike with regeneration and real-time environmental sensing capabilities.

Albeit, the big caveat being point 4 you mention of course! :)

AsymetricCom• 13 years ago

But most importantly, there is no patent protection for the Copenhagen wheel.

kamaal3• 13 years ago

>Copenhagen Wheel is still only a prototype with no sign of ever being available to the market. Smart Wheel is becoming available in May 2014.

This of all, is the most important thing.

People often forget how much work goes into producing a shippable product out of a prototype.

pbreit2• 13 years ago

Ugh...I hate this type of comment. First, the lame "been done before". Then criticizes the project for being on Kickstarter. Next, references a product that is not even available (and throws in "~5 years ago" to try to really rub in how late this product is). Then admits it's different! Yuck, yuck, yuck.

jobu• 13 years ago

GPS is not that much of a differentiator, and looking at the Kickstarter I don't see much else that is different.

The OP is right. This has been done before, and failed before. What is different about this? How will this succeed where others have failed? The site doesn't seem to address that at all.

logicallee• 13 years ago

Jules Verne wrote a fragment that's pretty much this exact thing in 1857, modern bicycles have changed little since 1885 and Edison showed the basics of electricity in 1879. This stuff has been in the public domain for close to a hundred years! Also Verne wrote about flight in 1887 and this doesn't have it. So while it DOES have GPS and bluetooth, it still seriously underwhelms in the flight department.

Realy, other than something you can order, what does this have going for it?

cjensen2• 13 years ago

"it can quickly be located and tracked via GPS" but the only radio in it is Bluetooth, so I guess you can track it if you're in the same room...

"36V Lithium" battery, but no spec about how many kWh it stores.

"Top Speed 20mph". Given that it only operates when the human puts in some effort, what does that even mean? I'm guessing this is written down because US Law says if it goes faster than 20, it's no longer a bike.

"In 2011 Niko Klansek introduced the first line of electric bicycles to the USA market." Nope; ebikes have been available in the US for far longer than that.

GAH. There are lots of conversion kits you can buy today. The kickstarter gives no way for you to figure out if this is anything better.

maxerickson• 13 years ago

They show about 20 cells. For cheap lithium ion batteries, that will be something like 150 to 200 watt hours. This is not a ridiculous figure relative to the stated range.

bigiain3• 13 years ago

I counted 22. I'm suspecting thats either a 35.2V 11S2P LiFePO4 pack with probably under 100Whr, or a 40.7V LiPo pack which could be upwards of 250WHr (and could get ~200Whr quite inexpensively). Another possibility it that it's a 37V 10S2P motive power battery and a 7.2V 2S pack to power the non-motive electronics (microcontroller/gps/bluetooth/…)

fennecfoxen• 13 years ago

Top speed of 20mph specifically means that the electric assist cuts out at 20mph, and you're correct in assessing the reason. If you want to go over 20mph, you either need to do it with pedal power or get registered as a motorcycle.

cncool• 13 years ago

Not true. The Specialized Turbo goes up to 45 km/h with some assist.

" e-bikes must have a motor of less than 750 watts and an unassisted speed of less than 20 mph. Because the Turbo is an electric pedal-assist bike, meaning you have to pedal to get any kick from the motor, the speed limit doesn’t apply. In fact, the only reason it tops out at 28 mph is to comply with European laws, which restrict e-bikes to 45 kph. Specialized installed a governor on the Turbo that automatically turns the motor off when it reaches this speed."

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/B...

FlyKly8• 13 years ago

A GPS module is of course also located on the Smart Wheel itself so it sends a signal on its own once the motion sensors (that turn on only after you lock it) notice it's moving without your knowledge.

The top speed means exactly that - because the Smart Wheel is a pedal assist this means it helps you accelerate until you reach 20 mph and no further. You're correct in stating that the top speed is also set in accordance to the US Law (or European Law, which allows for speeds up to 25 km/h).

We're sorry about the confusion about "the first line of electric bicycles" - this was of course meant to inform the reader about the first line of e-bikes that we're introduced by FlyKly, not the first e-bikes EVER.

acgourley• 13 years ago

Parent is asking how the wheel can notify the phone that the bike is moving if the phone is currently out of bluetooth range to the wheel

cjensen2• 13 years ago

So if you're within a few feet of your bike when someone takes it, it will notify you? And it will track the bike for a few seconds as it goes out of range?

Your KickStarter calls this "located and tracked" without caveats. That's pretty misleading.

darkmighty2• 13 years ago

"A GPS module is of course also located on the Smart Wheel itself so it sends a signal on its own once the motion sensors (that turn on only after you lock it) notice it's moving without your knowledge."

Sends a signal to what? If you're a few feet away I don't think you'd be worried about a theft.

cylinder• 13 years ago

That doesn't make sense. GPS is not a transmitter. Will you include an embedded 3G SIM card (like a Kindle)? I'm not sure how you will get the GPS coordinates to the smartphone 10 miles away.

jessaustin11• 13 years ago

...the motion sensors (that turn on only after you lock it) notice it's moving without your knowledge.

Is there any reason that "locking" doesn't render the device immobile? I realize someone could still carry it off, but most thieves would be more reluctant to steal a device they have to take apart and hack before using, than one they can literally just ride away.

bigiain3• 13 years ago

'"36V Lithium" battery, but no spec about how many kWh it stores.'

Speculating here…

They look like standard 18650 cells to me - they're readily available in both LiFePO4 and LiPo chemistries, but with 22 cells visible in the pictures, I'm guessing they're LiFePO4 because the nearest configuration to "36V" I can think of for 22 cells is 11S2P LiFePO4 cells at 35.2V, (the LiPo cells in 11S2P would be 40.7V nominal - a 10S LiPo would be "37V", but that doesn't make sense with 22 cells all up - maybe a 10S2P "motive" battery and an independant 2S pack to run the electronics?).

Typical LiFePO4 cells in 18650 size are 1350mAhr, so I'm guessing thats a 2.7Ahr @ 35.2V or a 95Wh - call it a 0.1kWh if you like. That seems a little low to get the indicated range/speeds quoted though - if you assume reasonable efficiency at half power, and that the bulk of power at top speed is aero drag, then the 250W used to ride at 25kmh would drop to doing only 19.5kmh at 125W (power going up with the cube of the speed thanks to the v squared term on the aero drag), so your 90Whr battery will only get you ~15km. If you halve the power again to 65W, and drop to 15kmh, you'd still only get a range of ~21km.

If they're LiPo cells though (with their increased fire risks), you can get inexpensively 2600mAhr cells in 18650 size - 22 of them (ignoring the difficulty in configuring a "36V" pack) gives you a bit over 210Whr - that'd still only give a 32km range @19kmh based on my assumptions above. Cells of 3000mAhr and over are around, they'd give you 244WHr and get maybe 40km @ 19kmh and _perhaps_ 50km @ 15kmh (but that'd take you 3 hours 20 mins)…

The "1000 cycle" battery life perhaps suggests LiPo instead of LiFePO4 (which is more commonly quites as "2000 cycles").

If I had to guess - I'd say it's a ~100Whr LiFePo4 pack at 35.2V, ad that the "50km" range relies on you providing over% of the motive power and travelling at a maximum of half top speed or so.

Retric• 13 years ago

250w should get you close to 35kph on flat terrain. The limit is 25kph due to the legal laws not physical ones. The upside is it should be able to do 25kph up a steep hill just fine and there range numbers are reasonable. Edit: Ok, not all that steep a hill.

jessaustin11• 13 years ago

...the only radio in it is Bluetooth...

I guess I just assumed from the comment in the video about SMS that it would integrate a Qualcomm chip or something. But now that you mention it, that seems a stretch. Such a component would serve no other purpose, and really change the pricing.

...the first line of electric bicycles...

Really suspect that "the" should be "our". I have sympathy for non-native speakers of English, but this is an error that ought to be fixed, since it really undermines their credibility.

jessaustin11• 13 years ago

...really change the pricing.

By about $60: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9533

hendekagon• 13 years ago

Unsprung mass

bagels• 13 years ago

Many bikes don't have any suspension springs. What is your point?

jessaustin11• 13 years ago

Possibly that the device won't stand up well to the rigors of regular riding? Potholes, curbs, railroad tracks, stairs, etc.? With all those different batteries, if any particular solder connection fails say once a year on average, this would be totally unusable after a few months.

sitkack• 13 years ago

The batteries don't rotate.

farnsworth2• 13 years ago

This is less efficient than putting all the batteries and other gear on the frame, right? Spinning all that mass around will take energy. I don't see an advantage unless you expect to swap wheels out often.

FlyKly8• 13 years ago

The Smart Wheel actually consists of two halves one of which is fixed (it doesn't turn). The battery is therefore stationary and doesn't require any kinetic energy to be spinned around the axis.

farnsworth2• 13 years ago

Oh, I guess I didn't pick up on that. Thanks for the clarification.

iambateman• 13 years ago

But from a business perspective, people who care about their bikes enough to spend big coin often care about the way they look. And attaching a battery w/ leads to an electric wheel is a major buzz kill imho.

r00fus2• 13 years ago

Battery life of 1000 cycles? Isn't that a bit low considering it'll only take you about 30mi/50km per charge cycle?

If they had some way of restoring the batteries without replacing/repurchasing the wheel, I'd be less concerned.

FlyKly8• 13 years ago

1000 cycles of 30 miles is in average way more than an average commuter spends riding over a course of a year. We believe this distance is acceptable for a product with a one year warranty.

Of course the battery pack will also be easily replacable.

kevinpet2• 13 years ago

So your view is that the expected lifetime of the product is identical to your one year warranty? I think that's the sort of thing you're supposed to let your disappointed customers discover after they've purchased.

mithras2• 13 years ago

I consider this borderline scammy. Products shouldn't be expected to become unusable right about when the warranty ends.

kamjam11• 13 years ago

What constitutes a charging cycle? Connected to the mains? What about all those micro charges you get along your journey, going downhill or braking?

Presumably the battery capacity will diminish over time, and you have some smart software to counter that as much as possible? Any expectations on how much the range will reduce by? Will the app tell us the range?

Really interesting project, looking forward to it.

mdisraeli2• 13 years ago

My wheelchair-using family and friends have been rocking Alber e-motion wheels[1] for some time, and would highly recommend them. Those don't recharge from motion (or as fast), or support bluetooth, but work in a similar way.

[1] http://www.alber.de/en/products/wheelchair-drive/mobility-wh...

voltagex_2• 13 years ago

Cool! Do you know if they have any issues with it making the wheelchair wider and therefore causing problems with doors/turning? I guess I'd have to give up my 2 degree camber with those wheels but it might be worth it.

mdisraeli2• 13 years ago

From what I can tell (having not used one properly myself), they fit the components within the push rim, so there's no real issues with doors or turning. Just done some research for you, and looks like they can actually support camber, too!

susi22• 13 years ago

Will it be waterproof? ipx7? What about vibrations? The housing for a Di2 battery case are enormous compared to the battery it contains.

CrankyPants• 13 years ago

Will it come in black? 700c?

freiheit• 13 years ago

I'm pretty sure when they say "29 inch" they mean "700c". It's the same bead seat diameter.

noonespecial5• 13 years ago

FlyKly guys: Welcome to HN. I know that a lot of this thread is going to look like we're hating on your product. (Personally I think that if you deliver it with the level of finish you're aiming for, it will be pretty cool). Mostly we're not, this is how we roll. For geeks, we've got x-ray vision when it comes to most new technologies so we see right down to the basic principles (which are almost always simple) right away. These are almost never the most interesting parts of new product releases but will elicit the predictable "pfft, Thomas Edison did it in 1913...". Water off a duck.

What we will do is pour our thoughts like water through your product and ideas. Anything that's not perfectly thought through is going to leak. I hope you'll take the criticism in the (mostly good) spirit in which its offered and use it to build a better product.

zorpner• 13 years ago

We're also going to read one sentence of your copy and assume that we know everything about how it works. We're going to draw a quick conclusion despite have never developed anything in that space and assert that your product has fundamental flaws without understanding your research, your market, or your funding model. We're going to compare your product to previous market failures despite fundamental differences that actually go so far as the previous product never having been produced.

But hopefully you'll still be able to get something useful out of this crowd :D

noonespecial5• 13 years ago

Heh. Some of us might. There's no shortage of cynicism to go around, here and everywhere.

On the other hand, what does the HN crowd say about technologies they really do find uninteresting and unimportant? Absolutely nothing. They drop right off the bottom of "NEW" without a single comment.

Edit: And to be fair, most market-speak is so vapid that we often only get one meaningful line of copy stating the purpose of a thing and a picture showing us its general physical shape to go on. We have to deduce everything else from that. In short, we've gotten used to disappointment.

FlyKly8• 13 years ago

We're definitely getting a lot of useful information out of this, even if it appears somehow hostile at first. This way we can quickly see which information is even more important to stress and even what we somehow missed out initially.

svmegatron• 13 years ago

Everyone who submits a "Show HN" should commit this to memory. This is a great place; thanks for the reminder.

davidjohnstone2• 13 years ago

We also do our best to be critical. It makes us look smarter.

"Negative reviewers were perceived as more intelligent, competent, and expert than positive reviewers, even when the content of the positive review was independently judged as being of higher quality and greater forcefulness." — http://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/item.aspx?num=7402

noonespecial5• 13 years ago

In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so.

huhtenberg• 13 years ago

noonespecial, I have no idea who you are and why you think you can speak for me. Stick to the "I" next time you decide to bundle everyone here into a single amorphous mass with you as its speaker.

FlyKly8• 13 years ago

Thanks! We're fully aware of how HN usually works, some of us actually regulary reside here. That's actually why we rather hang out here and answer your questions than in other comments sections where the debate would not be so intriguing.

We're looking forward to replying to all of your posts here since we believe this is one of the best ways to articulate our points more efficiently. We have the highest level of trust in our product and we'd love to see how could we be able to present it even better.

We appreciate your support, so bring out the big guns, okay?

grannyg00se2• 13 years ago

"It goes up to 20 mph (25 km/h) for a 30 miles (50 km) range."

The speed conversion is way off. But the distance conversion is pretty good. Wonder why that is.

davidjohnstone2• 13 years ago

I mentioned that on Twitter. It turns out that those are the limits according to the laws in US (20 mph) and EU (25 km/h), so it's top speed is limited accordingly depending on the country it's in. It's also an amazingly confusing way of putting it.

grannyg00se2• 13 years ago

Uh...yeah...20mph isn't 25km/h even if you are in the EU. They could use an additional sentence there.

And worse...where does that leave Canada? Or any other of the 98.5% of countries that use the metric system?

ginko• 13 years ago

Considering the acceleration of the motor is controlled wirelessly, I wonder if you could attack it so it e.g. accelerates uncontrollably.

pbhjpbhj5• 13 years ago

I imagine there's hardware limitation of the maximum current flow from the batteries (above and beyond the natural limitation).

Perhaps less catastrophically but similarly you might attack the lock, engaging the lock would most likely produce a skid and loss of control. With a solenoid engaged by a control circuit might that be possible simply by blasting the circuit with radio waves to induce a current? Thus you'd bypass having to gain access to any software controls and such.

Much easier to just nudge the back wheel with your car or shove a stick in the spokes if you're in to knocking people of their bikes though?

alan_cx2• 13 years ago

KERS for a bicycle. Cool.

Given that old Lotus bike, Im surprised one for the F1 teams hasn't rustled something up. I'd have a chat with one of them and see if they would like to partner up. Especially as they are trying to be all green these days.

Can you harvest from the front wheel too?

leecbaker• 13 years ago

If you slow the bike from either the front wheel or the back wheel, energy is removed from the whole bike. There's little to no benefit from harvesting from both wheels.

alan_cx2• 13 years ago

All the resistance is from only the rear wheel. So its like rear wheel breaking, and potential lock ups in the wet. Surely its better to spread the load. Also means twice the surface contact. Wouldn't that be better, perhaps safer, to ride? Especially in the wet.

kamjam11• 13 years ago

They already are for the FlyKly Smart Light! :-p

MBCook2• 13 years ago

Is it doing kinetic energy recovery? My reading was it was 'only' a rechargeable assist motor.

EDIT:

dangooer found the relevant part of the page. It does KER. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6563287

jchrisa2• 13 years ago

I have this on my BionX system. I think regen braking is fairly a no brainer these days.

hipsterelitist• 13 years ago

These guys made an electric bike/scooter hybrid a few years back that had some buzz here in NYC before release, but just seems to have fizzled. I'd be curious to know what happened.

Miyamoto• 13 years ago

Unless you're disabled, why do people want an electric bicycle? I figured most people cycle because they love cycling and the exercise of it. Including hills. Is this product meant to attract more automobilist?

untog• 13 years ago

Some people (myself included) cycle as a commute. It can be exhausting - I wouldn't mind a little help on those uphills.

pyrocat• 13 years ago

Cars cost a few thousand a year + large initial investment. Lots of people bike in cities because they can't afford to drive/pay insurance/gas/parking.

michaelwww• 13 years ago

It's not practical for many to arrive at work sweaty from a bike ride. It a commuter vehicle.

jchrisa2• 13 years ago

I take my kid to school in mine, and get groceries etc.

redcap• 13 years ago

Electric bicycles are pretty big in Japan - a lot of mothers and housewives use them to get around all the time as they don't tire you as much as normal bikes.

Also, there's a few bicycles these days with two childseats, so that's a lot of weight to cart around.

A bit of info here: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2008/08/17/travel/electric-...

brianobush• 13 years ago

Maybe in Tokyo, but I have never seen them in Sapporo. That must be why everyone is so fit :)

thrownaway2424• 13 years ago

It's true in the USA that a disproportionate number of people bicycle as a sport, because we've marginalized it as an athletic activity. The market of people who would bicycle if it was less effort (or safer, or more convenient) is huge.

jtheory• 13 years ago

It's not always convenient (or even possible) for your everyday transportation to also be exercise. Electric assist extends biking range (and makes biking possible) for people who would otherwise need to use another mode of transport -- because you have an important meeting today and don't want to be sweaty, because you are sore from weekend exercise, because the office is a bit far, because you have to pick up groceries, because you're 70 years old, because you're 8 months pregnant, because you have a cargo bike, because you have a serious bike race later in the day....

Electric assist is fairly common in the Netherlands (I have family there), where a pretty big percentage of the population uses bikes as the basic mode of transport. It's really sensible to have the option to ride somewhere without it being a workout.

mistercow• 13 years ago

What I'm not clear here is whether this does regenerative braking, or only charges at home. If it's regenerative, it's awesome and I want it. I've actually wanted to do a DIY regenerative braking project for a bike for a long time (impracticality and net-loss-due-to-added-weight would not really bother me as long as it worked). Somehow, if it's only charged at home, I feel like it's kind of silly, like a way to make biking lazier.

Still, in any case it would be awesome in that it would make biking practical in hilly areas where it is otherwise a horrible mode of transportation.

dangoor• 13 years ago

From the Kickstarter page:

"The battery also charges when you’re going above the desired speed, riding downhill or pedaling with the motor off."

jessaustin11• 13 years ago

IANAMechanicalEngineer, but do we need to worry about additional stress on the left dropout? The forces to which this component is typically subjected are the weight of the system and the tension of the chain. This device would seem to add an additional torque associated with driving the wheel via the pill-shaped peg that slides into the dropout.

This probably wouldn't be an issue for most bikes, but it seems like it's outside the design specs for any existing bike.

aidenn02• 13 years ago

Having done e-bike mods in the past, rear-dropouts tend to be stronger than front-dropouts, and on any steel bike you can put a lot of torque on the front dropouts.

Only problem with rear-dropouts is accommodating the gearset, which they cleverly handled by eliminating the gearset; that will suck if you run out of power downhill from your destination, but will otherwise work fine.

jessaustin11• 13 years ago

That would indeed suck! I can see why they didn't incorporate a cassette body (and the chain clearance issues that would entail: basically everything they have on the right side now would have to be moved to the left side) but it does make the final product seem less like a bicycle. (I know, this is sacrilege to the fixie folks. Meh.)

jessaustin11• 13 years ago

I had another thought: maybe through judicious sizing of (front) chainrings and the freewheeling cog one could get something that could climb a hill? Will widespread adoption of this device encourage development of a front derailleur that can handle more than three rings?

kamjam11• 13 years ago

Will this only work with single speed bikes? What about bikes with gears in the front and/or back, they will need to be converted to single speed I presume?

fernly• 13 years ago

You need to differentiate from the long-existing BionX hub motors[0] which do regen braking at user-selectable levels AND allow proper 7, 8 or 9-speed clusters, unlike the single gear your pictures show.

[0] http://www.bionxinternational.com/bionx-international-north-...

Edit: the big differences would be (a) this has the battery integral to the hub, where the BionX uses a separate battery pack; and (b) that this communicates to its controller -- your phone -- wirelessly, where the BionX console[1] connects with a wire.

IMO as owner of a BionX-equipped bike, I'm dubious about whether either difference is a positive one. For (a), the in-hub battery is clearly size-limited, can't be removed from the bike for charging indoors, and would be harder to replace.

As for (b), is it really a good idea to require a smartphone to be attached to your handlebars whenever you ride? That's not an easy environment, it has a lot of vibration as well as exposure to water, dust, and sweat. A minor point, the BionX dedicated controller has an optional thumb operated throttle lever for proportional control when you don't want to pedal, and it's hard to see how that could work with a smartphone.

[1]http://www.bionxinternational.com/bionx-international-north-...

egonschiele• 13 years ago

It also seems to be four times the price? That's what's listed here[1]. Either way, could you describe your experience? What do you use it for, and is it worth the expense? I'm wary of electric bikes because they are expensive, heavy, and let you exercise less.

[1]http://electricbikereview.com/bionx/sl-350/

kamjam11• 13 years ago

Point (b), since the connection is via bluetooth, it doesn't have to sit on the handle bar, you could just put it in your pocket. I think it is just for ease of access and view. The mount does have straps it says, to buckle it down in rougher terrain.

maliki• 13 years ago

I also think a safer (for the smartphone) and simpler interface to the FlyKly would be a killer feature. A battery indicator and an assist-level switch on the wheel itself would be gravy.

towski• 13 years ago

If you don't mind having to position a battery on your bike, for $399 you can already get an electric wheel.

http://www.electric-bike-kit.com/hill-topper.aspx

Otherwise I've been using a wheel and battery from http://www.leafmotor.com/hub-motors/16r-electric-hub-motor.h...

If you're more into plugging stuff together yourself. They also offer more wheel sizes, like 700c.

aidenn02• 13 years ago

While we're plugging ones we've used, I like http://www.ampedbikes.com/ I have an old ugly battery; they now have a shiny frame battery that I can't justify buying.

chintan• 13 years ago

Niko (the CEO) is real deal - he used to work across my cubicle at Projective Space in SoHo. He first introduced FlyKly electric bikes in NYC (he did manage to sell a lot in the area). His personal story is full of inspiring entrepreneurial journey! He is now back with smart wheel! Good luck man!

crazygringo• 13 years ago

It doesn't appear to support bicycles with gears. Is that something planned for a future model? Or do gears somehow become unnecessary with electric assist? Could you even retrofit this to a standard cheap 15-gear bike, or is it strictly fixed-gear only?

lostsock• 13 years ago

It replaces the need for gears. The motor does all the work for you so you don't need to gear up or down.

deletes3• 13 years ago

I think it supports bikes with gears where the pedals are( in the middle not on the last wheel ). If you look in the video at about 3:58 you will see some bikes with gears. This does limit you to two to four gears but that should be enough. Just have two low gears and one high one.

stcredzero• 13 years ago

Future designs could integrate a hub-gearing mechanism.

bluekite2000• 13 years ago

I thought electric bikes are illegal in New York??? http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/04/electric-bikes-...

jrockway4• 13 years ago

They are illegal to ride on the street, not to possess. So you can build them in NYC and ship them to somewhere legal, and everything is fine.

shadowmint• 13 years ago

The chances of me sticky-taping my phone to the front of my bike are non-existent.

...but also, won't charging this be a complete pain? I'm just imaging a bicycle sitting next to all the other USB charge devices on my desk. Awkward...

avn2109• 13 years ago

Sweet product. But am I the only one who has noticed that the "locking" feature is an absolute joke? Esp. in NYC, where the most burly bike locks money can buy keep you a mere step ahead of only the least-committed thieves.

Also, can this thing run without a smartphone? If it's raining, you certainly don't want to keep your phone on the bars.

beloch• 13 years ago

Here's why I like this design.

5 kg is light for a battery/motor module, but it still adds about 50% to the weight of a decent bike. The added thickness also means it's probably not practical to put a multi-gear cassette on it. End result, this will cripple most bikes once the battery runs out. More weight and poor gear ratios = hell for the cyclist. However, most smart-bikes are crippled anyways once they run out of juice.

The great thing is that you can use the same bike for commuting that you use for your sweatier, long-haul weekend trips. All you have to do is swap the original dumb-wheel back in. If you buy a dumb-bike and a smart-wheel you almost get two bikes for the price of one.

Tip for the makers: Stress the ease of hot-swapping that wheel in even more than you are now. This is a major selling point.

P.S. I don't see a quick-release clamp on this sucker in your pictures or video. This is a no-brainier and absolutely needs to be on there.

kamaal3• 13 years ago

>More weight and poor gear ratios = hell for the cyclist.
>Stress the ease of hot-swapping that wheel in even more than you are now. This is a major selling point.

These points are really crucial. A true pedal assist is something that can assist you while it can, and then not make it difficult for you to pedal when it can't.

Besides, I feel this market has immense potential you could do amazing things with a good control system on that smart wheel. And probably some day even an ECU.

jrockway4• 13 years ago

The weight of the bike doesn't matter. A 20 pound bike plus a 200 pound rider is about the same as a 30 pound bike plus a 200 pound rider. You're the heavy part, not the bike. (People complain about citibikes being too heavy, but I rarely get passed even on a citibike, so my guess is the problem's the rider, not the bike.)

Also, I don't think a quick release will work for this. The motor needs to push against the bike in order to move the wheel relative to the bike. A quick release will slip.

simonb2• 13 years ago

Not necessarily. QR systems such as Maxle are sturdy enough for competitive downhill use.

Also 10 pounds is a huge difference not just in the effort needed to propel the bike forward but also in terms of maneuverability, especially as it is rotating weight. And in city usage you often have to carry the bike down stairs etc. where again 5 kg and a messed up center of gravity is a big deal.

jessaustin11• 13 years ago

Also, I don't think a quick release will work for this. The motor needs to push against the bike in order to move the wheel relative to the bike. A quick release will slip.

Look more closely at your bicycle. The axle doesn't turn in the dropout. Rather, the hub shell turns around the axle. That's why the bearings are mounted in the shell rather than in the dropouts.

Actually I think their pill-shaped peg that slides into the dropout but won't turn within it is kind of brilliant. A very simple solution, and there is no reason it couldn't accommodate a quick release skewer.

I agree that bicycle weight is a fairly minor consideration for commuting in moderately hilly areas; I've ridden a longtail that's close to 50 lbs. for years. Maybe I don't notice the weight because I am a fat bastard.

specialist• 13 years ago

Riding my local streets, I always need to have my rims trued. Were I to buy one of these, I'd want the beefy model, or some assurance that I could find someone who could true it.

jessaustin11• 13 years ago

It looks like the rim is normal: they say you can specify which rim you want. Therefore I'd say the spokes are attached to the rim by normal nipples. Therefore the wheel can be trued just like any other, unless one's truing stand has some weird limitations.

xanderstrike• 13 years ago

P.S. I don't see a quick-release clamp on this sucker in your pictures or video. This is a no-brainier and absolutely needs to be on there.

I'd only put a quick release on it if I was sure that everyone who used it was going to lock up their back wheel (I'd encourage the Sheldon Brown lock strategy [1]). Most people lock the frame and maybe the front. This back wheel would make up the majority of the cost of your average bicycle in the rear wheel alone, making it easier to steal isn't the best idea. Maybe ship it with a nice hex wrench to make taking it off easier, but a quick release on that would be a bad idea if you're marketing it to cycling novices.

I know if I got it, it'd be pitlocks all the way. My commuter is barely worth $500, this would double what it's worth in a single easily-removed part.

[1] http://sheldonbrown.com/lock-strategy.html

buro93• 13 years ago

I was going to join everyone else in this thread in bashing elements of the design and product, the specifications, etc. But I won't do that.

Instead I'll do the opposite.

I'll point out upfront, I own 5 bikes, I run one of the largest cycling forums in the world, and I run one of the largest cycling clubs in the UK. I get cycling.

I like it. The FlyKly.

I like it because it allows a rider to keep their existing bike, and yet to retrofit for a really reasonable price an electric motor.

I like it because the vast majority of the weight within the wheel isn't a moving thing, the batteries are fixed.

I like it because the 30 mile range, whilst not suiting my 18 mile commute for a daily charge, actually does suit the vast majority of cyclists that I know who only commute fewer than 10 miles.

I like the 1,000 cycles, which is probably 900 in reality, is actually a few years of use for the average cyclist. Even most cycle commuters don't actually cycle 7 days a week, and those do diligently do so on all work days only do so for 220 > 250 days per year.

It hits all of the sweet spots:

1) Can I keep my existing bicycle?

2) Can I just get the electric bit and not pay to replace all of the other bits I have?

3) Will it just work and be easy to install?

4) Will it help me on my commute?

5) Will it realistically last a couple of years?

6) Is it priced such that I can afford it?

For the majority of cyclists I know, the answer is yes to all of the above.

I think it's got a good chance, which doesn't mean I'll be buying one but then I'm not your average cyclist.

PS: FlyKly, you show several times the use of the wheel on a brakeless fixed-gear bike. That's just for the aesthetics right? Or is the wheel fixed compatible such that you're fine with people skid/skip stopping?

IanCal• 13 years ago

I like it because the 30 mile range, whilst not suiting my 18 mile commute for a daily charge, actually does suit the vast majority of cyclists that I know who only commute fewer than 10 miles.

If you can easily remove the wheel, then this isn't much of a problem, they say it charges in 2-3 hours from a normal socket so you could probably get to work, plug the wheel in under the desk and have it charged well before you're going home.

radiorental• 13 years ago

yup, this is what I do with my homemade ebike http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/10328825565_ef951c4367_b....

fwiw, as a designer I think this team is solving some of the biggest issues with current ebike design that is holding back wider adoption in the US/UK markets. Kudos to them, hope they hit a home run.

webjprgm• 13 years ago

Or you could get motor power for 30 miles and manually bike the remaining 6. The wheel doesn't stop you from manually moving the bike, does it?

barrkel• 13 years ago

It will have to run a bit slower in the UK:

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

(Otherwise it'll be a powered two-wheeler, come under moped regulations, require a license, license plate, etc.)

buro93• 13 years ago

Yeah, that's crazy. That's slower than a commuter cycling pace (16mph).

pbhjpbhj5• 13 years ago

"the electric motor shouldn’t be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15mph"

Curious now whether that's actually what the law says, if so it seems badly drafted. That would appear to mean a physical limit on the motor is required rather than just a software control - as then the motor would "be able" to propel the bike faster but he device as a whole, unmodified, would not.

tirant• 13 years ago

It only comes in 26 and 29 inches size. Good luck then selling to one of the biggest market of Bikes (and electrical bikes), Europe, where the common size for Urban bikes is 28 inches.

Tarang• 13 years ago

Im curious how does the (normal) braking system work? If the motors helps push against hills it pushes against resistance like the rubber brakes too? Surely its not always regenerative braking? I guess you always have to stop pedaling for that to kick in.. It is nice though to go down a hill or even flat land on free without feeling the resistance of regenerative braking or something slowing you down.. Do we get control over this?

The second was how does it talk to the phone without a SIM card or some kind of internet connection if you're a couple of storeys up in a building where Bluetooth? doesn't have any range?

Otherwise this is pretty awesome, although I do like getting a bit of a workout when going around I like when you want you can move around stressless it would be awesome for 'those days' and not have to use a car.

Robin_Message• 13 years ago

Could you fit it the front wheel instead? Less work with the chain, and you can keep all your old gears. Not sure how it would affect the "drivability" though.

pbhjpbhj5• 13 years ago

I was wondering about having a trike with both back wheels motorised (or a wheelchair?). Weight at the front does make it easier to fall off though I feel.

virtualritz2• 13 years ago

Most bikes I see in cities in Europe have hub gears in the rear wheel's axle. I think this won't work with these because if you put that wheel in, you loose the hub gear? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hub_gear

deletes3• 13 years ago

Can you have hub gears in the pedal section?

virtualritz2• 13 years ago

No, the gear is in the axle. My bike has this too. I'd love to have something like the FlyKly but as it is, it won't work.

6ren• 13 years ago

I'm disappointed it doesn't (seem to) do regenerative braking... so elegant, don't waste that power, reuse it! But I don't think this is a big selling point, and you can always add it later.

I think your marketing approach is what will make or break it: "non-sweaty to dates/interviews" and the phone-charger could be the killer app (perhaps look into what segment actually experiences this pain most? Many of today's phones have adequate battery life for some people's usage; target those phones + usages that don't).

hengheng• 13 years ago

Regenerative braking often doesn't pay off. Note that you don't need a whole lot of energy to put your bike into motion, while you need quite some energy to keep it moving due to friction. Putting in numbers, if you go 5m/s=18km/h=12mph, your kinetic energy is 100kg*(5 m/s)²/2 = 1.25kJ, which at 125W can power you for ten seconds.

You can cast longer than ten seconds in front of a red light in most situations. And keep in mind that for regenerative braking to work, you must walk twice through the whole efficiency chain, which is generator -> electronics -> battery -> battery -> electronics -> motor), giving you an efficiency of about 0.85^6=37%. So 3.7 seconds.

Ono-Sendai• 13 years ago

spelling mistake: "and it weights only 9 lbs (4 kg)"

joetech• 13 years ago

I absolutely want one of these. They've thought of everything. As I went to pledge my money for it, I found that the starting pledge that actually gets me a wheel was $550 and that's all gone. So to get one will run me $590 and presumably more in retail. This is where "more accessible" as one of their goals falls short.

It looks great, but I'll have to pass at the price.

LaurentVB• 13 years ago

I like the concept very much, but they're being a bit dishonest about the "fits practically any bicycle frame". Even in their own video, they show the wheel mounted on bikes where it absolutely does not fit with the brakes: see http://imgur.com/lZZ2ABg

nsm• 13 years ago

I do hope this will work even if I don't have a smartphone.

It's ridiculous how a lot of mechanical things today are bound to the digital world when they don't need to be.

codex• 13 years ago

If this project is like the other Kickstarter projects I've backed, it will meet its funding goal then be delayed by months and months, if not years, with letters of apology sent every month or so. It's a shame because Kickstarter is one of the best things to ever happen to capitalism.

tocomment• 13 years ago

I was trying to figure out if this same type of thing would be possible to build into a car tire. I haven't been able to figure out braking yet?

Is there any work being done to simple regen braking systems that could easily be added to cars?

tomdidom• 13 years ago

This is the Copenhagen Wheel from Andy in Weeds!

FlyKly Smart Wheel

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