Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

http://blog.artillery.com/2013/09/project-atlas-and-the-artillery-platform.html

by statico • 13 years ago

263 146 13 years ago

blog.artillery.com

kkshin• 13 years ago

Whoa, that looks really sweet. I especially liked how simple the dev tools looked, is that in the browser as well?

statico5• 13 years ago

Yep, all of the action you see runs in a browser -- except for the console command that uploads assets to the CDN.

MysticFear• 13 years ago

Do you have a planned payment model for the game, or is it still too early?

robmclarty• 13 years ago

How does the artillery platform work? How can we use it and what will it cost us? It looks awesome :D

justina1• 13 years ago

It's been a while since I've played games like this, but if I could just point my modern browser to a URL, subscribe for a few bucks a month, and start playing, I might just start again.

natmaster• 13 years ago

Congratz Ian! GL;HF

sledmonkey• 13 years ago

This looks incredible, well done. Maybe I can end my search for a modern Myth?

monsterix3• 13 years ago

Wow! This is mesmerizing.

These posts on HTML5 stuff that pop-up on HN from time to time hint on what is to come on the web in the near term. I think HTML5 is a huge Tsunami gathering energy and steam out there! It will and should beat all these "I-am-the-best" closed systems (already does in some areas) sometime soon, and be on the top.

System agnostic, immersive, inclusive, what not. Love it.

connerbryan2• 13 years ago

Definitely. It's amazing to watch a technology accelerate this quickly.

CmonDev2• 13 years ago

Yeah, scripting an OpenGL game engine. First time ever.

tbolse• 13 years ago

100% agreed.

_random_4• 13 years ago

The bad thing is that there will be no technology competition. Just HTML and JS for everything? Boring...

connerbryan2• 13 years ago

"Just C and C++ for everything? Boring..."

I seriously doubt that the world will stagnate at HTML and JS. Thing will evolve!

Though judging by adoption and advancements from W3C, it might be thousands of years ;).

bdicasa3• 13 years ago

JavaScript is no longer the only language. I wouldn't be surprised if JavaScript is used at all for large projects in the future. With things like Dart, TypeScript, CoffeeScript, and asm.js JavaScript is becoming more of a compile target.

slacka3• 13 years ago

We may be seeing the same HTML5 demos on HN, but we're living in two different universes. In my world, I always open up these demos in a browser that's incompatible. If I do manage to get them working, my reaction is always like wow, I saw better native demos 10 years ago, and those just worked.

Let's be honest. JavaScript, DOM, and CSS are terrible technologies to base any gaming system off of. As a gamer, performance is critical and stuttering ubiquitous in HTML5 games is unacceptable.

For a gamer who disables mouse acceleration, had a CRT until low latency gaming LCDs were available, and tracks his Star Craft APM, what does HTML 5 buy me other than performance issues?

monsterix3• 13 years ago

I saw better native demos 10 years ago, and those just worked.

Agreed. But you're missing the point. In those 10 years those of us who played in the native universe will not be the target market any more. Just like we listeners of Pink Floyd and Metallica aren't the target buyers of Justin Biebers and Lady Gagas of the day. The latter are as successful, immersive and relevant to those who matter.

JavaScript, DOM, and CSS are terrible technologies to base any gaming system off of.

Now this is an opinion based on the current_level_of_performance (which I agree is not at the expected level.). But it's not a great way to judge what the future could hold. It's definitely a bet, like you said let's be honest with this.

untog• 13 years ago

JavaScript, DOM, and CSS are terrible technologies to base any gaming system off of

They are, but I very much doubt these guys are using the DOM or CSS. And if they're using asm.js then they're using a very different JavaScript, too.

_random_4• 13 years ago

Also unlike Steam you might have to re-download the whole thing if your browser decides to clear the cache for whatever reason. Can't play underground, on a plane or while camping as well (not a typical scenario though - nitpicking a bit).

dustingetz• 13 years ago

Think about why we build browser apps instead of native apps today. All those reasons apply.

saraid216• 13 years ago

In my world, I always open up these demos in a browser that's incompatible. If I do manage to get them working

I, too, like to strip naked outdoors in a Chicago winter and then complain about how the city isn't keeping its streets reasonably well-heated.

pfft876xb• 13 years ago

There are some absolutely amazing HTML5 / WebGL things out there; I'm just not sure you've seen them. It's true that browser incompatibility is an issue, but say you're ONLY targeting Chrome desktops, which still has a bigger user base than most consoles--if you're doing it right you're getting hardware accelerated graphics and the performance is pretty great. Have you seen cloudparty.com? It has multiplayer in-world building, skeletal animation, particles, full screen effects... the works, and the performance is definitely up to snuff. Observe tons of realtime screencasts here: http://www.youtube.com/user/CloudPartyInc

I think that the problem is that WebGL is young and there are LOTS of ways to shoot yourself in the foot perf-wise. Only a few teams have really figured it out and the rest are making the tech look bad. But the performance is there if you're an experience graphics programmer and you know your way around JS wackiness.

thefreeman2• 13 years ago

It's easy to talk trash on a technology that is in its infancy. Wait... WebGL games are still not as good as game engines that have been developed for 20 years? SHOCKER.

The technology is only going to get better. The whole point of these demo's is to show what is possible even now when the specs aren't finalized and the technology is barely adopted. Give it 3-5 years and I would be willing to bet you'll need to eat your words.

roarroar• 13 years ago

System agnostic, immersive, inclusive, what not. Love it.

Yay! Let's cheerlead the democritisation (read: degeneration) of computer programming! The "open", democratic people got everything wrong, which is why the browser has such a laughable hodge podge of features. Hooray for people who took web programming instead of OS design at college. WOOO!

biomecha2• 13 years ago

Let's cheerlead the democritisation

I think you meant democratisation, or was there some subtle reference to a [famous greek philosopher](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demokritos)?

theboywho• 13 years ago

I think the web or HTML5 is the most closed platform ever.

Let me explain. You want to program for the web? Javascript. You want to do 3D? we have you covered, you can only use webgl. Don't like it? Sorry but we need to remain open! want audio? We have an API for that, why would you want to use something else? use Audio API, it's open.

can you imagine if linux, or microsoft windows or OS X only understood one programming language? Or if DirectX were the only 3D thing you can use? or if to use audio, you had no choice but to use one library?

The web is just that, and no, being available on all the platforms does not make it an open platform. It's one big closed transparent prison available everywhere. Once you go in, you are stuck with the onboard equipment.

Jyaif• 13 years ago

Your comment is similar to saying "to program on windows, you have to write assembly". You can write for the web in Java, C, C++, and a bunch of other languages that all compile to JS.

tharshan09• 13 years ago

This is what I have been waiting for...

ebbv• 13 years ago

This looks really great. I just think the claims of "console quality" or "AAA quality" (which I heard associated with Day[9]'s announcement) are a bit disingenuous.

I'm excited that you guys are pushing browser gaming, and what you've done so far looks great. Just please don't fall into the trap of over hyping and then disappointing customers.

anxman• 13 years ago

CEO here: Thanks for the feedback. 'Console quality' and 'AAA' are very subjective and we totally understand your points. Our job is to make Atlas and anything on our platform objectively feel amazing and please keep in touch with us.

_random_4• 13 years ago

What are you going to sell - games and/or technology?

bhouston3• 13 years ago

Dude, you should totally have a look at http://clara.io It is a perfect compliment to Artillery in that we are a web-based 3D content creation platform -- but we are distinctly not a game engine or a game editor. We would love to partner with you and I think there are a ton of opportunities.

kordless• 13 years ago

Everyone deserves empathy and respect.

Respect for putting that on your company page. It's good to see core values like these!

IsTom• 13 years ago

Many people trying to make "classic" RTSes miss critical points about feel and gameplay which makes the games very unsatisfactory to play for somebody who tried SC2 with its polished engine. Partnership with Day[9] might be just the thing that they need. Graphics are passable, but it's enough. Many players play SC2 on low graphics for readability of screen already.

girvo2• 13 years ago

I saw this over on /r/starcraft the other day; as a massive fan of Day[9] I hope his input will be enough to create the F2P RTS that so many want. Balanced, fun, reasonably fast paced... We don't know much about what he's planning but we'll see!

Meanwhile, back to the ladder. Grandmaster can't be too far off... ;)

cpeterso• 13 years ago

For us non-gamers, who is Day[9]? <:)

mercurial• 13 years ago

Who is "Artillery"? By the headline, it sounds like that's a company I should know.

gnufied• 13 years ago

Artilley is the platform/engine on which game is built and it is also name of the company behind the platform and the game (https://artillery.com/team)

oconnor0• 13 years ago

What does being a "hardcore RTS" mean?

TsiCClawOfLight• 13 years ago

I assume they use it interchangeably with "e-sport capable"

qznc• 13 years ago

I interpret it as "Don't bother unless you can pour hundreds of hours into it".

sp332• 13 years ago

RTS = real-time strategy. By "hardcore" they probably mean lots of fiddling and attention to detail will help you win games.

Mikeb852• 13 years ago

This is impressive and cool, but I think web-based gaming will never catch on with the 'hardcore' for a few reasons.

For one, C++ and the native toolchain is still more efficient. But it mostly comes down to perception and convenience. The perception of web-based games is that they're casual and cheap. And most hardcore gamers like to have a copy of the game on their computer - they paid for it, they want a copy that they can keep (and at least store on their hard drive) for years. They don't want to stop playing a game because the dev decided to end its life...

This is why platforms like Steam, Xbox, HumbleBundle, etc..., still rule for distributing games (both AAA and indie).

Cakez0r2• 13 years ago

An excellent game could change perceptions though.

I'd be more concerned about how easy it would be to reverse engineer a web game compared to a native binary. If it's easy to bot or cheat, any competitive aspect will be ruined.

girvo2• 13 years ago

SC2 is easy to hack and cheat. Blizzard rarely do ban waves. Oddly enough, with this type of game, no hacks are enough to let you beat those who are truly better than you (at least with starcraft!).

Kinda neat to be honest. Doesn't stop me yelling at map hackers tho ;)

jamesgeck0• 13 years ago

Convenience is exactly why this is interesting. I don't buy many games outside of Steam because it's so convenient not to have to back up installers or hunt for a particular XNA version or what have you.

There's a low barrier to entry to trying something that runs in a browser. I just navigate to the page, wait for a progress bar, and maybe bookmark the game if I like it. The low barrier to entry is one reason that flash games are still so popular. http://xkcd.com/484/

pjmlp3• 13 years ago

That is what consoles are for.

CDRdude• 13 years ago

I'm not convinced that web-based is automatically doomed among the hardcore. I think that Quake Live the most popular game in it's subgenre (Arena FPS), and it's still hanging on as an esport, with a slot in Dreamhack as well as weekly tournaments. Granted, Quake Live has the massive advantage of being a resurrected version of Quake 3 Arena--but it does make a precedent in people's minds of a hardcore web-based game.

nickbarnwell• 13 years ago

QL uses a native binary that you install, no? Like BF3, the only components handled in the web browser are matchmaking, clan management, etc. For the actual matches/gameplay, it invokes the native client

Narishma• 13 years ago

Quake Live is a native game (that's why you have to install a plugin) that is launched through a web-based interface.

devx• 13 years ago

What does "catch-up" mean? Will they ever be as powerful as advanced as the hardcore cares are today (2013)? Yes, they will be. Will they catch-up to hardcore games of the future (2023?). No they won't.

But that's irrelevant. What matters more is if they will catch-up to being "good enough", and that is likely to happen.

Mikeb852• 13 years ago

I never said catch-up.

I personally think WebGL IS good enough to make quality games, I have no issue with it. I just don't think it will catch-on with the gaming public for other reasons. Look at how much resistance there was to Microsoft's 'always-on' feature of Xbox One, to the resistance to DRM that calls home (it is annoying if you're trying to play a game somewhere that you have no connection), and then the requirement that the developer also maintain infrastructure.

The current system, where you create something native using a cross-platform toolkit, then distribute it once, and the user has it forever - this is what gamers are used to, and what they like. And I admit, it's nice being able to play games when I have no internet connection. I don't think this paradigm is necessarily the best one, but it certainly has its merits.

d0m• 13 years ago

Well, I'm a hardcore gamer and I think you're all wrong, no offense. I care for good games. Whether it's from the browser or native, as long as it's addictive and competitive I'll play it. Also, the thing about having a copy is a thing of the past. Think about Starcraft2 that you can download and already have the settings you used on a different computer. Or steam where you download the game and press play.

My personal concern with the browser is more about the freedom of game developers to tweak the app as they want. You're very vulnerable in a browser in term of how you can use the keyboards and how the client will receive what you're trying to show them. For instance, in starcraft2, you use "ctrl+1" to bind an army to the key "1". In chrome, ctrl+1 switches to the first tab. Some webapp uses hacks to go around that.. for instance, with Asana, you use the [tab] key, such as [tab]C to go to the comment section.

Everyone talks about performance issues.. but if the trend continue, it won't be a problem. But I'd agree that right now it's still hard performance-wise.

Maybe one way to solve these problems is to have a gamer browser. Could be based on V8 and even have the look&feel of Chrome, but small parts would be tweaked to make it gaming friendly. Maybe no plugin allowed, more resources dedicated to it, performance optimized for certain tasks, etc.

thefreeman2• 13 years ago

I real like the idea of a game-mode for browsers, or a dedicated game browser. It could disable all hotkeys, have extremely minimal chrome, and be optimized for the gaming environment.

joshuacc3• 13 years ago

Interestingly, the demo video hints that they are using CoffeeScript (see the `./publish.coffee` command in terminal toward the end). Can anyone comment about whether this is actually the case?

statico5• 13 years ago

Yes, the command "publish.coffee" is a CoffeeScript tool which publishes a given game target to the CDN. The different colorful letters represent the state of each asset as it moves through the upload pipeline, e.g. "U" for unchanged and "F" for finished.

Our engine and Project Atlas are written entirely in CoffeeScript, but that's not a requirement of game code.

joshuacc3• 13 years ago

Can you comment about your experience using CoffeeScript? Personally, I'd love to see a whole blog post about that. :-)

catshirt2• 13 years ago

this is awesome. and wow they have been busy. devotees will remember the bomberman clone 'powderkeg' that was on the front page about a year ago. i'm even more impressed by the progress than the tech.

new favorite platform, and hopefully new favorite RTS.

civilian• 13 years ago

Does anyone know how they're going to lock the cursor into the browser window?

A common feature required for RTS games is being able to just push your cursor to the edge of the screen to move your viewport. (Since it's played full-screen.) It seems like a browser game would be missing this key feature.

Skywing• 13 years ago

Browser can request cursor control

statico5• 13 years ago

Indeed! Mouse scroll in Project Atlas works pretty well at the moment. We aren't using the Pointer Lock API yet due to some input latency problems. A related Chromium issue is here: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=168459

bhouston3• 13 years ago

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/WebAPI/Pointer_Lock

:-) Developed at Seneca College in Toronto, Canada.

Cakez0r2• 13 years ago

Are you going to sell your engine and toolchain too?

bhouston3• 13 years ago

Whoa awesome and very well funded it seems.

I think Artillery.com would be a natural partner for our WebGL-based 3D content creation platform. They should check it out at http://clara.io Similar to how Unity3D is a natural partner to the desktop 3D content creations tools like Max/Maya.

waterlion• 13 years ago

Nowhere does it explain what "RTS" stands for.

lmartel• 13 years ago

Real-Time Strategy [Game]. It's a genre.

codexon4• 13 years ago

I think Javascript is too slow for 3d gaming.

If you look at this HTML5/WebGL minecraft engine, it stutters even without any other players or bots in the environment.

http://voxeljs.com/#gallery

Meanwhile Minecraft running in Java is smooth on even the slowest machines.

Benchmarks indicate that Javascript is 4x slower than Java.

http://j15r.com/blog/2013/07/05/Box2d_Addendum

The alternatives like ASM.js and PNACL are far from usable. ASM.js has no support for threads and PNACL is unlikely to be supported outside of Chrome. They also have no debugging support.

ghostdiver• 13 years ago

JS port of Box2D is dead since 2008.

codexon4• 13 years ago

Why is that relevant? It is still a valid example of non-trivial game code.

ksrm• 13 years ago

https://code.google.com/p/box2dweb/ tracks box2dFlash which was last updated in 2011.

irrlichthn• 13 years ago

Too slow? Then try this: http://www.endtime.at/demo.html#gamestart

jsolson• 13 years ago

That actually stutters rather a lot on my Chromebook Pixel :(

thelukester• 13 years ago

Your demo was also choppy for me on 2.2 Core 2, 460m, Chrome 29, Win7.

After your experience with both native and WebGL game development, don't you think it's a little premature to make a hardcore game targeting only WebGL?

Thanks for sharing Irrlicht engine with us!

cdash• 13 years ago

In addition to all the stuttering it looks terrible graphics wise.

sspiff• 13 years ago

This is exactly what they said about Java ten years ago (and I still hear it today): "Java is way to slow for games/anything performance-critical".

The choice of Java in your argument is kind of ironic to me.

codexon4• 13 years ago

Minecraft isn't exactly a very demanding game.

Also 10 years ago Java was nowhere near as fast as it is now. If you are saying that Javascript might be an option 10 years from now, I am not disagreeing with you.

vinkelhake• 13 years ago

Java has gotten faster in the last decade, but it's still not used for games where performance matters.

DigitalJack• 13 years ago

Actually minecraft gets pretty shaky on my mbp 2009.

My minecraft server can get bogged down just my wife and I playing. That's on a core2duo 2.0GHz with 4GB.

It plays better on my phone.

mnemonik• 13 years ago

They also have no debugging support.

When emscripten is passed the debug flag, it will generate source maps, which will let you step through your code, although inspecting variables still isn't a solved problem.

lbenes• 13 years ago

As a hardcore SC2 player, I'd only be interested in a native version of this game. Even the latest ASM.JS demos like Epic Citadel run chopping on my system. Hardcore gamers like myself won't sacrifice performance for a the luxury using poorly designed and immature technology like JS and WebGL.

epsylon• 13 years ago

And Epic's demo was their previous gen engine, Unreal Engine 3, which targets mobile platforms: iOS, Android, PSP... Meanwhile, the state of the art UE4 is only aimed at next gen consoles and native PCs games.

ilaksh2• 13 years ago

Your performance is not typical. Webgl performance is dependent upon drivers and system config. For other people like myself those demos run smoothly.

runarb• 13 years ago

The music in that video was quite catchy. Anyone know what its name is?

lorenzfx• 13 years ago

What is it with these militaristic company names? Artillery, Firebase, etc. Or is it just my European mindset?

eliben• 13 years ago

European, as in "shaped by the most peaceful continent in the history of Earth"?

[disclaimer: I'm originally from Europe, so this is self-criticism]

lmm• 13 years ago

It's a strategy game; artillery is going to be a key part. It's no different from a racing game called "driver" or a platform game called "jump".

TimJRobinson3• 13 years ago

Are you looking to make this run well on mobile too?

There are 2 main advantages of web over native games. The first is being able to quickly jump in and play with a friend. The second is being cross platform including all mobile devices.

These 2 reasons are why I'm building my multiplayer tower defense game http://www.towerstorm.com in javascript. I'd be interested in trying out your engine if you're looking to make it run fast on mobile along with PC.

tieTYT• 13 years ago

I'm also building a javascript game (I'm using canvas and 2d images). All the comments here are freaking me out a bit. They all keep saying that html5 games are too slow. My game has many significant features done and it seems to run fine. But I'm using tiny sprites, very few animation frames and probably 10% of the artwork I intend on having in the end.

How's your experience with your game? Is it really slow or does it run fine? I'm asking regarding all platforms.

johnyzee• 13 years ago

I am building an HTML5 game (canvas/2D) that is distributed both online and on mobile. It is asset heavy with total assets weighing in around 600 MB, with an initial download around 7 MB and progressive loading as the player advances. Sprites are relatively large and a fair bit of animation and effects can be going on at one time, although I try to keep scenes static to cut down on rendering. I am happy with performance, both on mobile and desktop browsers. You are welcome to check it out for reference: http://www.webworks.dk/enginetest

TimJRobinson3• 13 years ago

The other comments are really talking about complex 3D games which is valid (for now at least). Tower Storm is far simpler than this and runs perfectly on PC's and runs great on most high end phones released in the last 2 years (iPhone 4+ and Galaxy Nexus+). I've even got it running on the Firefox OS phone (1Ghz cpu, 512MB Ram, 480 x 320 res) but it slows down significantly late game.

However it has taken some time to optimize the code to run fast enough on all these devices. The main issues I've come across are normal game algorithm issues (using a quadtree to find nearby minions, using hashmaps instead of arrays for some data that is always searched by id etc) and garbage collection. Garbage collection has been an annoying issue which I've somewhat solved by using entity pools. So instead of creating new entities and deleting them when they die a pool of entities is created at the beginning. Then upon creation each entity is pulled from that pool and after it dies all its variables is reset back to zero and it is placed back in the pool to be used again later. This uses up a lot more memory but it means the game doesn't have a large CPU spike every few seconds as it does garbage collection.

Canvas performance may be an issue once I turn it into an iPhone app as I've heard the canvas app renderer has far worse performance than the browser renderer (I have no idea why), but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

So in summary I think it's fine for simple casual 2D games that don't have complex logic (using A* algorithms to move large groups of units may be too much, or having advanced AI). But anything designed to appeal to hardcore gamers who need 60+ FPS and want in depth gameplay may be a bit much for it for now.

Pxtl• 13 years ago

I will be exceedingly impressed if they pull this off. RTS is probably the gaming genre that offers the most "interesting" problems in programming, and thus is the one that needs the most computing power beyond simply showing stuff on the screen.

Pathfinding is Hard. Maintaining sync is Hard. Unit AI is Hard. And keeping those performant is doubly so, especially using JS.

So yeah, I'll be impressed if they get anything playable out of this.

Arelius2• 13 years ago

I'm not sure I'd that path-finding and maintaining sync are hard problems, especially since they are problems that in an RTS aren't quite as sensitive to latency.

kevingadd• 13 years ago

Ask anyone who's ever worked on an RTS and they'd disagree with you. It's not even difficult to find evidence to support them being tough problems by googling it:

https://www.google.com/search?q=rts+pathfinding

Lots of people asking for solutions, lots of different solutions, lots of caveats.

AimHere• 13 years ago

I think the reasoning behind using an RTS is likely that the company wants people to write inherently online games on their platform as part of whatever monetization strategy they have - and the other big alternatives are the MMO and MOBA genres, which would need a lot of content to be made. Having a couple of bright programmers on call - the designer is both a Starcraft celebrity and a mathematics nerd, so he likely can chip in too- would no doubt be cheaper than hiring enough artists/character designers or voice/motion capture actors to make a respectable game in some known hardcore online game genre...

DigitalSea2• 13 years ago

Wow. I wish I had even just half the talent of HTML/CSS/Javascript to pull something off of this calibre. I am really impressed, I can't wait to get my hands on this and deconstruct how they did it the best I can and play it too.

novalis2• 13 years ago

I think you should pickup openGL/webGL instead of that other stuff, if you are serious and not trolling. Because I really can't tell at this point in the thread.

DigitalSea2• 13 years ago

No trolling whatsoever. My day job is as a web developer, so I really meant it when I said I wish I could do cool things like this, but given the fact I work a 9/10 hour day, 5 days a week and have family and freelance commitments learning something as complicated as this isn't really within my capability at the moment.

I'll just remain appreciating what these developers have been able to do from a distance until I can learn the basics myself. Programming these games is only half the work, it's the art direction, storyline and mechanics that make up the other 50% of the work to make a game in any language or framework.

dmead• 13 years ago

isnt this the project day9 is an adviser for?

asdfs3• 13 years ago

Yes. He's answered a number of questions about it in the reddit thread.

Sami_Lehtinen• 13 years ago

Looks good. I personally really really hate installing any crap on my computer or phone (apps). If it works just as regular web-site using browser only, it's just perfect.

Kiro• 13 years ago

How does real-time multiplayer work in the browser when there's no support for UDP?

TimJRobinson3• 13 years ago

TCP is great for RTS games as most use lock step networking so they need to have zero packet loss. UDP is better for First person shooters and fast action games where dropping a few packets isn't the end of the world.

Artillery is building a hardcore RTS with HTML5 and WebGL

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