Is it worth buying a MacBook Air?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6289192

by winter_blue • 13 years ago

32 118 13 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I'm thinking of getting the 13-inch MacBook Air, but I'm not sure if it's worth the investment.

I strongly prefer Linux to OS X (having used a company MBP for about a year), so OS X in itself is not so much of a big deal. But I'm still willing to give it (OS X) another shot, though.

Right now my biggest problem is justifying the value/worth to be gained for the sky-high price tag (for my own peace). With the i7+(8GB RAM) upgrade, and NY tax (~9%), the price hovers close to $1,470.[1]

Is this machine really worth almost $1.5k?

[1] Base price: $1099. i7 Upgrade: $150. 8GB RAM upgrade (from 4GB): $100. Total (sans tax): $1349. 9% sales tax: $121. TOTAL = $1,470

Mustafabei• 13 years ago

First of all, it's probabaly safe to say that it will be a good investment, regardless of how you are going to use it. (School, work, design etc.) I'm all up for the 8 RAM upgrade if you think you need it, but for the i7, I'd say don't go there if you are not involved with complex rendering or serious multitasking. i5 will do just fine. (I have an i5 model with 4GB and had no problem for close to 7 months now.)

Just a heads-up, make sure to check the air's wi-fi connectivity when you buy it, as the prime problem seems to be it.

Enjoy.

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

Thanks for the advice.

for the i7, I'd say don't go there if you are not involved with complex rendering or serious multitasking

I'll be doing some software development locally on my machine. It'll mostly be small personal projects. I just thought maybe I'd benefit from the small boost that comes from the i7. According to Anandtech, the i7 makes things about 25% faster (according to various benchmarks).

waivej• 13 years ago

I haven't read the benchmarks... But go for mhz rather than cores. (Amdahl's Law)

prawks2• 13 years ago

It really matters most what those "things" that are 25% faster are. I don't have Mountain Lion, but if it's a general speed up on the entire system I'd say it might be worth it.

Maybe go to a store and try a demo? Might make it more obvious what, if any, difference the upgrade will make for non-resource intensive tasks.

pizza234• 13 years ago

It's not clear how much you need a Mac in itself.

If not, there are a few high-end ultrabooks having a better performance+build quality to price ratio.

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

there are a few high-end ultrabooks having a better performance+build quality to price ratio

Would you be able to recommend a few good ones? I've looked around a bit (only a bit), and everything seems priced in the MacBook range (ie. $1000+).

gokulj• 13 years ago

Have not used them, but they sound like great value if you would rather go with Ubuntu on your laptop https://www.system76.com/laptops

koffiezet3• 13 years ago

I came to the same conclusion when looking around for a small lightweight, high end quality laptop. Dell XPS and Lenovo X-series, that's about it I think - and they're similarly priced.

Ended up buying the MBA Haswell with i7, 8gig, 512gb ssd for +-€1800. No regrets here.

mknits• 13 years ago

Personally, I feel that most Apple products are over-hyped and over-priced items, nothing more. I know I'm going to be downvoted but I think it's the truth.

coob• 13 years ago

Personally, I feel you need to provide some substance to back up your claims for them to be worthwhile. Baseless opinion is just noise.

wldlyinaccurate2• 13 years ago

I used to feel the same way. But have you tried finding a laptop of high build quality and similar specs? The only one I can find that comes close in terms of battery life is the new Samsung Series 9 (ATIV Book Plus) which is actually more expensive than the Air.

The only thing holding me back from getting an Air right now is the low screen resolution.

davidw5• 13 years ago

But have you tried finding a laptop of high build quality and similar specs

I don't like Apple much, and do not want Mac OS, but these days, this statement is sadly, frustratingly true. I am in the market for a laptop, and I have to say the specs on the 15" Retina Macbook pro are really nice. Sure, it's expensive, but I'll be staring at / working with the thing for countless hours. I'm almost tempted to buy one, but hate the idea of spending money with Apple only to have to fiddle to get an OS I like on the machine.

threeseed• 13 years ago

No. You will be down voted for contributing nothing to the conversation.

If you think it is over-hyped and over-priced then provide a better alternative. I would love to see some more options for laptops but the quality of some of most of the PC ones are atrocious.

andyhmltn• 13 years ago

How? Having had a macbook pro for 4 years I can easily say it's the best computer I've had for that period of time.

gnur• 13 years ago

over-hyped, nearly certainly. The base models are almost never overpriced, but the upgrades really are overpriced. Base iPad is good value/money, iPad 3G with 64GB is ridiculously expensive. Try to find a phone that is comparable to the iPhone in speed/battery life/looks/storage space and you'll be paying at least as much for that phone, same with their laptops.

jasonbx• 13 years ago

My ipad 2 from 2012 has a dead battery. Its not like ipad batteries lives forever.

xutopia• 13 years ago

I disagree. I value a strong body for a lightweight laptop. I also really enjoy little details like the backlit keyboard and the magnetic power cord attachment that saved me more times than I can count on one hand.

If you do not value any of those things then I can understand. But even if I'd install Linux on a laptop I would want it to be as well engineered as an apple laptop. Even if it means paying a few more dollars than the next best plastic shell from a competitor.

danbee• 13 years ago

Macs generally hold their value very well, plus you get 12+ hour battery life.

You should be able to run Linux on it too if you really don't get on with OS X, although you will likely sacrifice some of that battery life.

javipas• 13 years ago

Well, running Linux on the new MacBook Airs is still a little bit difficult, as shown in Phoronix. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTQ0NTA

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

You should be able to run Linux

Yea, according to Phoronix it's just a matter of installing the wireless driver (at least with Ubuntu).

you will likely sacrifice some of that battery life

This is kind of a problem though. When I'm dishing out nearly $1.5k, I don't want to loose out on the biggest advantage of the MacBook Air (the 12+ hour battery life).

I guess I could just try and get used to OS X. (It's POSIX-based after all..)

martin-adams2• 13 years ago

Lets say you intend to keep it for 3 years, would you be prepared to pay just over $40 a month for it? I don't know if that helps but I like to think of things as a cost over time, not a lump sum consumption like a meal or day to the theme park.

prawks2• 13 years ago

While I completely understand the strategy, I think sometimes this is a dangerous way of thinking, especially if you're tightly budgeted.

He's not taking $40 a month and putting it back where the money for the Air came from, and if he has an emergency need for $1500 the day after, he's short the money for the Air.

Just something to think about I suppose.

martin-adams2• 13 years ago

Completely agree. The money is sunk in now and absolutely affects cash flow of anything coming up. Only think like this if you're looking at worth over affordability.

For example, as a freelancer I look at the cost of equipment against the value it provides against my earning potential.

koffiezet3• 13 years ago

One thing I would like to point out is - that even after those 3 years - you'd get a pretty good price for the MBA if you sold it second hand (given that it still works)

They were surprised here at work that when they sold their perfectly working 3-y old "end of life" Macbook Pro's they still got about €1000 for them (originally costing +-€2300)

bluedino2• 13 years ago

The question isn't "Is the Air worth it", it's "Is the 13" Retina worth it".

drcross• 13 years ago

It's an incredible machine, i got the 8gb, i7 upgrade and apple care. I used my previous macbook for 7 years so if I get the use out of it, it will have been low cost.

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

7 years is looong time to use the same machine. I can't imagine doing it. I'd probably use it for 3 years before replacing it. (FYI I bought my last laptop in October '12).

I'm not so sure if it's that incredible. The battery life is definitely incredible. But the screen is just 1440x900.

Also, what about performance? It seems like it offers just average performance (a necessary compromise for such long battery life)...

blackdogie• 13 years ago

can anyone explain what major difference to expect from the i5 to i7 core upgrade ? Speed & large cache is what I saw on the specs, but is there something else I'm missing ? Any noticeable battery change ?

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

Anandtech has done an in-depth review on precisely this (the i5 vs i7 on the MBA), and it seems like battery life is not really affected (in a few case it is - but the difference is negligible).

growt• 13 years ago

I don't think you'll find another machine with the same specs and formfactor for much less. So the question is really do you need these specs and form?

devx• 13 years ago

You could get an Asus Zenbook with a 1080p screen though.

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

That's a good question. I've been thinking of whether I should go with an ultraportable (with great battery life) or a super-powered desktop replacement (with 1-2 hours of battery life).

Clevos seem to give the most bang for the buck (in terms of price/performance). system76 and Sager both sell rebranded Clevos. A model I've been thinking about is the Clevo W370ST.

It's 17.3", has a 1080p matte screen and a bunch of other things. But I read that the Clevo/system76/Sager's screen quality is not particularly good. Also, one commentator on a thread complained about hard drive rattle (a case / build problem) and others about very loud fan noise while doing CPU-intensive stuff.

daGrevis• 13 years ago

In my opinion, if you prefer Linux over OS X, you should take a look at Dell XPS 13 Ultrabook.

davidw5• 13 years ago

He's price conscious though, and that's a fairly expensive machine in its own right. It's still worth a look though, as the value of getting a machine that 'just works' is not to be discounted. It would drive me bonkers to get a computer with no apt-get, no focus follows mouse, one mouse button (three is best), and so on.

Terretta2• 13 years ago

One mouse button? MBA has four.

de_dave• 13 years ago

I got mine my top spec XPS 13 for around £700 (refurb'd by Dell). Nearest MBA was over £1,100, and it had lesser specs.

Both the Dell and Apple refurb stores should be your first port of call.

busbyjon• 13 years ago

I've got an Air, and I love it.

Only comparison is to the Sony Vaio Pro 13, two of my team have them - and they are _good_ machines.

Chose the air over the retina due to the size and weight, although I miss having a HDMI port!

krak3n_• 13 years ago

I recently got the top spec macbook air and it is easily the best machine I have ever used, hands down.

locusm• 13 years ago

Maybe not... If you lean towards Linux - I've heard the guys at System76 are great to deal with. https://www.system76.com/laptops/

wldlyinaccurate2• 13 years ago

System76 laptops aren't known for their amazing battery life. The new(ish) Galago UltraPro supposedly only lasts 4 hours. Fine if you're plugged in all the time, but then why do you want a laptop?

virmundi• 13 years ago

So I can sit in a more comfortable chair with the thing on my lap or lap desk. I like having my Tempurpedic adjustable bed up in a comfortable sitting position with my Sager, holy-cow-that's-big-with-terrible-battery-life-but-great-specs laptop as I type listening to Pandora.

jemka• 13 years ago

Fine if you're plugged in all the time, but then why do you want a laptop?

I sit on my couch with my laptop plugged in all the time. Am I doing it wrong?

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

Fine if you're plugged in all the time, but then why do you want a laptop?

I travel between countries a lot, and I can see myself doing that more for the near future. Being able to have just one machine -- rather a powerful desktop workstation and an ultraportable (like the MBA), is one reason I've been considering getting a desktop replacement laptop.

You get to take you work with you, anywhere. It's the alternative I've been considering, if I choose not to go for an MBA.

dubcanada5• 13 years ago

How is your experience with system76?

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

system76 is indeed pretty good. I don't know if you knew, but their laptops are all Clevos underneath.

It's good to do some separate research on the Clevo as well. If you want something comparable to the Bonobo Extreme, but cheaper -- consider the Clevo W370ST. It's similarly specced to the Bonobo Exteme (but without the backlit keyboard and a couple o' other things.)

I've found the Clevo W370ST being sold in two places:

* AVADirect: https://www.avadirect.com/gaming-laptop-configurator.asp?PRI...

* Sager: http://www.xoticpc.com/sager-np7370-clevo-w370st-p-5841.html

Sager offers more customization, for things like cooling and stuff (esp. important on a machine like this - which according to reviews tends to get very hot).

Also, here are some reviews of Clevos:

* In-depth (European) review of a Clevo model. See the section on the display: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Schenker-XMG-A523-Clevo-...

* See the 3rd comment here: http://www.overclock.net/t/1415091/im-thinking-about-buying-...

Also http://www.overclock.net/t/1404827/new-laptop-for-work-2-3k-...

If you are concerned about the Clevo's Matte display not being good -- there's a Toshiba Qosmio X70 which is specced very similarly but has a "TruBrite" display. I don't know how good that is, but maybe it's better.

The Qosmio X70-ABT2G22 Laptop: http://www.toshibadirect.com/td/b2c/cdetland.to?poid=2000098...

The cooling is probably also more well-honed on the Qosmio (just speculating coz "Toshiba" is a well-known brand), so you might not have to spend extra on upgrading the cooling as you might have to do with the Sager/Clevo.

jetru• 13 years ago

Check out the Asus Zenbooks. My friends have them and run Linux on them. Look in the Microsoft Store online - they tend to have some good deals too.

I think the biggest factor with the Macbook Air will be the battery. If a 10hr battery means something to you, it will be worth it. Or maybe not so much.

aukatrau• 13 years ago

I've been looking at this and the sony vaio pro 13, as they are similar. The sony vaio pro 13 is a little more expensive, but I think the extra cost is worth it for the following reasons: 1) Even though the mac book air is light, the sony vaio pro is lighter 2) The resolution is higher (1440 x 900 on air, 1920 x 1080 on vaio pro) 3) Vaio pro has touch screen. Some people may say that is unnecessary, but it is another method of input available and I believe in the next few years it will be standard on all laptops. 4) It's made of carbon fiber, so it's ridiculously strong

HugoDias3• 13 years ago

Oh man, 1.5k for a i7 + 8gb ram macbook air ... this is my DREAM. In Brazil this same machine costs R$ 6.274,00 ( $2645.92 )!!!!!!

Casseres• 13 years ago

For the difference in price, it seems like you could buy a round-trip ticket to the United States. If they are a hot commodity in Brazil, you could buy more than one and resell them. I've never been to Brazil though, so I don't know how customs will react you importing 5 to 10 laptops.

HugoDias3• 13 years ago

Sadly we can't do this. Each person coming back from another country has an limit in dollars to buy. If this limit is overpassed, a lot of taxes will be setted in each product, increasing the price.

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

That's an insane markup. Can you buy it from US-based sellers and get it shipped to your home in Brazil? (Like via eBay or something.)

I assume there'd be customs, but my guess it that it's probably not going to bring the price anywhere close to $2.65k.

HugoDias3• 13 years ago

Yes I can do an import, but here in Brazil, each import value above $ 50 gives the government the right to add a charge of 60% to the IRS and a rate of 30% of state revenue! Doing the calculations the product is twice more expensive.

$ 1500 = R $ 3,571.80 + 60% = R $ 5,714.88 + 30% = R $ 6,786.42

R $ 6,786.42 = $ 2,850.00 !!! :/

npaquin• 13 years ago

I have been using the same (ish) Air that you're looking at for about a year now (this is my first Mac). I'm getting rid of it and grabbing a Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition - the screen resolution on the Air just isn't good enough, and the OS is a joke compared to Linux.

dubcanada5• 13 years ago

Care to expand on how Mac OS is a joke?

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

I'd like to hear why you think OS X is a joke as well. It's a true POSIX system[1] after all. You can get homebrew/macports which (I hope) offers something comparable to apt-get.

[1] Unlike Windows, which passes POSIX certification on paper (or did), but in reality it doesn't mean a thing.

adamlindsay• 13 years ago

Does it absolutely need to be brand new? I typically buy my Macs refurbished. Or being in NY, if you are developer, hunt down an ST.121-3 form and get it tax free. Either route will probably save you quite a bit.

Next, take into account resale. All computers drop in value, but Apple products hold theirs better than anything else I have ever seen. I regularly resell my Macs after only a year or two with loss of only a few hundred tops. So the question is more about the yearly cost of ownership. Which also brings up the idea of leasing, but typically it doesn't work out well.

http://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/current_forms/st/st121_fill_in.pdf

axx• 13 years ago

I recently switched from a MacBook Air 13" to a Lenovo X220 12,1" (Intel i5, 4 gig RAM). I bought it used and it was in perfect shape and without any scratches.

I paid ~490€ + 80€ for an SSD and a additional 70€ for an additional 9 cell battery.

The 9 cell battery gives me around 10 hours of battery life with normal usage and up to 12 hours with very little usage (mostly Terminal/SSH). But i still own the old 6 cell battery: around 5 hours on top (sure, you need to reboot, but it's still pretty cool).

The only downside is the display resolution (1366x768), but 90% of my day is using the Terminal, so not a big problem for me. If you need more screen estate, you can still hook it up to a monitor via Display Port.

I'm running Linux on it, and everything works perfectly, no drivers problems or anything.

If you're not really depending on OS X, maybe a used Lenovo X220/X230 would be an alternative.

For Hardware Specs -> ThinkWiki: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:X220

ddeck3• 13 years ago

If screen size is important, another option is the ThinkPad X1 Carbon. I don't run Linux on mine, but I've read that most everything is supported. Headline price is quite high, but it seems there's often ridiculous discounts to be found.

Size and weight are basically the same. Some key differences:

+ 14" (1600x900) vs 13.3" (1440x900) screen, matte screen may be an advantage or disadvantage.

+ Stick mouse if you like such things

- Worse battery life, but charges in ~35 minutes

- X1C power brick is......a brick

At the same price, the MBA is probably a better choice. But if you can get a significant discount, it's a reasonable alternative.

EDIT: updated resolution

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

One thing regarding resolution/screen size:

I think as of now, the Rentina MBPs are the only systems (besides mobile) that handle high PPI screens properly.

Whenever you have small screen and high resolution paired together, on most desktops/laptops, you get incredibly tiny everything -- and suddenly you have to strain your eyes a lot to see things (which is something I'd rather not do).

Density independence[1] for desktop OSes is a serious yet-unresolved issue, and without it I don't see ultra-high PPI desktops/laptops becoming common.

I personally prefer lower PPIs (on desktops) than most people. The 13-inch MBA's ~127 PPI is almost pushing it, for me. On the other hand, I love high PPI screens on mobile, as the text looks much sharper and crisper.

[1] https://developer.android.com/guide/practices/screens_suppor... (this section on the Android doc summarizes the "why" for density independence perfectly)

tom_b• 13 years ago

I've been using the same Lenovo X200 for four years and have been extremely happy with it. I'm running Linux on it these days after getting tired of dealing with Windows for the first year.

The display resolution has become a drag though (same 1366x768 as the x220). I love the portability and durability of this machine, but I've notice I tend to hack when plugged into an external monitor more over the last year rather than just using the laptop alone.

I've started eye-balling the X230, mainly because you can cram 16GB of ram into it. I would also consider looking at some of the newish T430s/T431s. Better displays, still under 4 lbs.If you buy a Thinkpad new, get the cheapest configuration you can and upgrade the memory (I've used crucial.com) and drop in an ssd yourself - you'll save hundreds of dollars.

japhyr• 13 years ago

I just got my first Thinkpad this summer, a T430s. I absolutely love it, and I'd like to reiterate the approach of buying the cheapest configuration possible and then upgrading components separately.

I replaced the dvd with a bay battery, and I think I get about 7 hours of battery life. I never use it that long at a stretch, and I recharge it every night, so I just always have plenty of battery life.

I run Ubuntu 12.04 at the moment. My only complaint has to do with suspend. I've noticed that while closed and suspended, it still works through the battery's charge. I was surprised to leave it suspended with a mostly full battery one day, and find it off the next day. Also, when I carry it in my backpack in a case while suspended, it comes out of the case hot after a couple hours. Apparently it is still working pretty hard while suspended.

phaus2• 13 years ago

If resolution is important, Lenovo is about to release the t440s, it's going to be about 3.5lbs, finally has a 1080p IPS panel, and it's got a dual-battery system that allows you to hot-swap the secondary battery.

http://shop.lenovo.com/fi/en/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/t440s...

mvanvoorden3• 13 years ago

Regardless of the quality of their hardware, would you support a company that doesn't pay taxes, that's turning their OS more and more into a cage, that lets their hardware be assembled in factories where employees work in harsh circumstances, etc?

In other words: Is a good product more important than ethics?

moogleii• 13 years ago

Where are these other magical brands that don't use factories in China?

mvanvoorden3• 13 years ago

That was not the question, and not the only point I mentioned.

dubcanada5• 13 years ago

Oh cause nobody else uses Foxconn. Certainly not Dell or any other computer seller.

selfexperiments• 13 years ago

I was thinking along the same lines the other day when I saw a big billboard promoting Ontario eggs and how "fresh" they are.

How well the chickens are treated should be most important to a civilized society.

mikhailt• 13 years ago

Really, you're bringing in ethnics and politics in this?

You should be blaming the governments for allowing everybody to bypass the taxes with BS loopholes and everything.

It's not ethnics, it's pure business. Apple is a business, just like Dell, HP, etc, their primary function is to maximize the profits at any given costs. If there are loopholes in the tax laws that allows the companies to legally not pay taxes, it is their function to take advantage of it. The US government confirmed that Apple DID NOT BREAK any laws.

IIRC, the top 20 companies didn't pay 1.2 trillion of dollars that they would own to US government if there were no loopholes.

Every frigging tech company is pulling the same BS.

Now, turning their OS more into a cage? Proof? I haven't seen them do anything in the last 5 years to turn OS X into a cage.

Factories, really? Apple is just a small part of the big problem here, and Apple is actually the one of the FEW companies that mandated the factories to improve their stuff. I don't see anybody else on public saying they'll force the factories to do stuff.

In other words, buying or not buying a Mac, IT WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING.

He needs a good product, he can get a MBA if he wants. If he wants to fight the power, he can do it on a MBA that'll last 12+ hour for him.

mvanvoorden3• 13 years ago

It's easy to blame the governments for everything that goes wrong.

WE the people are the ones in power. WE the people are the ones who vote for the policies of a company by buying their products. Since when did we shift all of our responsibilities to government?

Do we really want to government to control every aspect of what a person or company can or can't do? If yes, then we can't blame the same government that we have to pay so much taxes or complain about lesser freedoms.

And it's not the function of a company to behave unethic just because it's legal. Legality has nothing to do with it. And at the same time, I don't judge anyone for buying at these companies, I just want to make people aware of what it means when you buy some company's product.

OSX is slowly moving towards an operating system where you can only buy at the App Store. Now you still can install outside of it, but the step of adding a checkbox to disable this has already been taken. I would not be surprised if this functionality will become the same as they do on iOS, which is already quite a cage.

About the factories I know that more companies use for example Foxconn, but that doesn't change the fact that this happens and they continue to use the services of these companies.

I'm not judging anyone for buying Apple products, nor do I try to push any opinion. I was just asking a question with the intent that this information might be taken into consideration and to point out our responsibilities as people for the behavior of companies.

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

Breaking down your points:

a company that doesn't pay taxes

Every company has an incentive to pay less taxes. Even people do. (I'm not necessarily saying it's the right thing, or endorsing it.) But this is the government's realm.

turning their OS more and more into a cage

This would actually be a deal breaker for me. If OS X turned into anything like iOS, where you need prior approval before being able to run certain code, that would be it for me.

I don't think Apple's going to do it though. Way too many developers use Macbooks, and I doubt they'd want to piss them all off. Also, Tim Cook is at the wheel now -- he seems like a bit more practical and mellow person than Steve Jobs (this ain't necessarily a good thing) - so I doubt he'd do anything radical like this.

lets their hardware be assembled in factories where employees work in harsh circumstances

I'd like to see this change - but is there anything much we can do about it? I haven't come across ant "Fair Trade" laptops yet (unlike with food, clothing, etc). Definitely would be good to go with a company that treats their workers well - but then there's also the issue of verification, of whether they do what they promise to.

On the positive side though, Apple claims to be environment-friendly - I hope their claims are true.

irrationalguy• 13 years ago

One thing not to overlook is the convenience of just taking any apple product to an apple store if you have problems.

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

taking any apple product to an apple store if you have problems.

Does this cross international borders?

It matters a lot to me, since I travel between countries quite a bit.

gprasanth• 13 years ago

How about this:

An ultrabook (Asus? Dell? Lenovo?) + Tablet(Ipad? Nexus?) + Powerful Desktop (Dell Vostro? Mac Mini?)

You see, it's psychology - Everyone prefers 3 candies for 12$ to 1 candy for 10$.

mburst• 13 years ago

Go find another machine with the same specs then subtract the cost from the air. If you'd pay that much for OS X then by all means get the MacBook Air. I personally like developing in Ubuntu more compared to OS X and Windows so I just use Windows with a virtualbox. This way I get the best of both worlds.

damian2000• 13 years ago

Have you looked at Lenovo's Thinkpad X1 Carbon? I bought a Lenovo last year that I'm happy with - decent build quality, solid keyboard. Maybe not as good build quality as a Mac but near to it.

dubcanada5• 13 years ago

I'd also recommend a good Lenovo. They are still fairly amazing computers, maybe not the quality of their old black ones, but still excellent.

davidw5• 13 years ago

I looked into those, but the resolution was abominable - 1366 x whatever. I think this is a screen shot: http://www.vectronicsappleworld.com/collection/articlepics/a...

yesimahuman• 13 years ago

I'm a pretty heavy Linux user and I constantly oscillate between Desktop Windows + Linux VM, and a Macbook Pro/Air.

Even though I feel Mac laptops are very overpriced, I keep coming back to them. Some of the benefits you get are an intensely integrated experience, along with dev tools that work very well, with a lot of support for whatever kind of work you might be doing (lots of SO questions, etc.).

I've come to the conclusion that I just get more done more quickly on a Mac. And my Air is probably the best laptop I've ever used. Light enough to carry around, fast enough for any kind of development work, and very sturdy. You'll love it, and completely forget the price tag.

One piece of advice though: Get a personal articles insurance policy. State Farm (and maybe others) offer this special policy specifically for laptops, and they will replace or pay for your machine to get repaid for any damage, including water spillage. I spilled water on an Air last year and that machine is essentially a wash now: too old to fix, and too broken to sell. Don't make the same mistake.

EDIT: Thanks for the downvote :|

fideloper• 13 years ago

Use Mac or Windows so you can use productivity tools needed (Microsoft Office, Adobe products, if needed) and then run virtual machines for development.

My 11" MBA runs great. I've only installed a few things - I do NOT install server tools (where "tool" == apache, nginx, pip, memcached etc etc etc etc).

Mac laptops are still good quality, and you're NOT stuck using the Mac OS for everything, especially development.

gte910h• 13 years ago

Exactly, mac laptops are great windows and usually good linux machines too

overgard• 13 years ago

I'm using a MacBook Pro so it's not exactly the same, but I will say, it's hands down the nicest laptop I've ever owned by a large margin. (This is my third laptop, all the others were not macs). I agree on the OS thing -- I actually run windows the majority of the time so I'm not buying it so much for the software.

In terms of cost, I think it comes down to how often you use it. I view computer hardware the same way I view, say, beds in that if you're going to spend 1/3rd of your hours with it, it's probably worth investing in something you really really like. If not, go cheap.

On the other hand, you might also consider a Thinkpad. I haven't owned one, but the ones I've used have always seemed like very solid hardware and if you don't need OSX you can avoid paying the apple tax.

paulocal• 13 years ago

I absolutely love my macbook air. Had it for about 2 years now. Got the very low end model at the time and use it for software development and photoshop and it runs beautifully. My only regret is not shelling out a few more bucks for a larger ssd (i have the 128gb model). The battery life has been great even after 2 years.

As far as build quality, I'd say its unmatched. I've dropped it numerous times and have never put a case on it. Never even put it in a sleeve. I've left it on top of my car and driven off. It has a few scratches, but thats about it. Maybe I've gotten lucky.

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

The battery life has been great even after 2 years.

That sounds awesome. I thought the battery would degrade significantly after a period of time like that.

Honestly, a big part of the reason why I'm even considering Apple is because of the experience I've heard with the iPad. I bought the original iPad when it first came out (in 2010), and I still use it almost everyday. I've gotten so much out of it.

On the other hand, the Nexus One (which I got in Feb 2010), fell once, practically stopped being useful after that fall - and to top it off (even if it worked today) Google has marked it as "obsolete" (and hence not worthy to receive any new upgrades). I paid Google more for the Nexus One, than for the iPad (16GB).

FireBeyond• 13 years ago

Why do you decry Google for the Nexus One being "obsolete", released in 2010, not getting any updates... when you have an original iPad from 2010, which is stuck on iOS 5.1?

colomon• 13 years ago

I know everyone has their own tastes. Certainly when I'm on the command line, I prefer Linux.

But for my money, the interface between me and the computer is drastically better for the MacBook Pro than it has been for any other computer I've ever owned. The trackpad is a joy to use, and the GUI is miles better than any other I've experienced. That makes me more than willing to put up with the added expense and sometimes balky performance.

And usually I've got multiple terminal windows SSH'd into a Linux box...

xpressyoo• 13 years ago

Actually, I faced the same question a few months back. I'm a Linux user and was looking for a light and decent laptop. I almost got the MacBook Air but was not ready (yet) to move from Linux to OSX. I finally purchased a Thinkpad X1 Carbon (i7) (http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/x-series/x1-ca...) for less than $1400 thanks to a discount from my University. It's not cheap but definitely a nice machine. It's light, has a cool look (IMO), the display is better than the Air but the X1's battery lasts less than the Air. However, note that the battery life on recent MacBook Air's shows a rather sharp decline compared to older MacBook Pro's: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/164129-macbook-air-batt...

A comparison X1 vs Air: http://www.scmp.com/magazines/48hrs/article/1295563/face-app...

mchannon• 13 years ago

I got the 11" rather than the 13"- fits better on an airplane tray table and $100 is $100. I was paranoid Xcode wouldn't fit within its tiny screen but its non-retina screen is still very densely packed with pixels and my eyes still work wonderfully with it. Terminal windows similarly work great.

The 8GB is a no-brainer, but it also makes it a little harder to buy from just anywhere, and it's non-upgradable RAM so you have to make the commitment up front. I didn't see much point for going for a more powerful processor; if you push it, an MBA, even topped out, is never going to hold its own against bigger computers- that's not why people get MBA's.

The SSD, which you can get on any size of iron these days, may be a very pleasant adjustment as well.

You can also take $121 off your up-front price by buying mail-order from a company that does not charge sales tax in your state (note: Amazon is no longer in that category).

zimbatm• 13 years ago

Compared to ?

It's not an apple to apple (huhu) comparison but here are models with similar performance range:

https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/galu1 with 120GB SSD and 8GB of ram is worth $1169.- Much bulkier. Has a CD slot.

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/s-series/s431/ with 8GB of ram is worth $949.52.-

galaktor3• 13 years ago

I have the system76. Not bulky at all. Mine has no CD slot but an SSD and 500 GB internal drive. Been playing steam games just fine on the Iris pro graphics, it controls 2 external monitors simultaneously (3 in total including laptop screen), drivers for everything worked out of the box (although Skype for linux is acting up wrt audio). Add to that: System76 support is great.

Edit: I should add that keyboard and clickpad seem to annoy some people but I haven't found anything unusual with them as laptop input devices go (they all give you RSI anyhow). I only use them on the go when I really need to but use ergonomic ones via USB most of the time.

etioyuahgdhjdkg• 13 years ago

I also have the galago pro. A great machine! Like a lightweight desktop replacement. Only downside is the 5 hour max battery life.

phaus2• 13 years ago

If you don't mind me asking, how fast do you type?

I type around 100wpm and I am worried about the Galago, even though it seems like a great machine, because I've heard that it drops keystrokes.

Also, for any of you who replied to galaktor because you also own one, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the keyboard too.

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

I thought I'd a CPU performance comparison between some of the laptop models we're discussing here.

Based on CPU Benchmakrs' High End CPUs list[1]:

- Intel® Core™ i7-4700MQ (common on many[2] desktop replacement laptops) scores 7,949

- Intel® Core™ i7-4650U (MacBook Air i7) scores 4,442

- Intel® Core™ i7-4750HQ (Galago UltraPro) scores 4,185

- Intel® Core™ i7-3537U (higher-end Lenovo posted above) scores 3,885

- Intel® Core™ i5-4250U (MacBook Air i5) scores 3,572

[1] http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

[2] The system76 Gazelle Professional uses this. So do many gaming laptops (like the Sager/Clevo, which system76 is based on) and this Toshiba Qosmio (http://www.toshibadirect.com/td/b2c/cdetland.to?poid=2000098...).

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

I wonder if the better performance of the Core™ i7-4700MQ is worth it (in getting a desktop replacement rather than an ultraportable).

koffiezet3• 13 years ago

I have a MBA and the choice between OSX and Windows is a personal-one, but I actually prefer OSX for desktop usage. Linux for me is the best server os around, but using it on a desktop irritates me. OSX gives you the same command-line power any *nix will give you, I use vim, tmux, clang and gcc, grep/sed/awk/bash scripting on a daily basis on both my air and the Linux servers I maintain. To that it adds an actually usable desktop that simply works, multi-desktops that work brilliantly once you master the touchpad gestures, and fullscreen apps. Without this, I think a 13" display would have been too small for me. This however, is a personal OS choice. You can still install Linux on it if you want to.

Regarding the laptop itself, the only one I've seen come close, is the Dell XPS 13, which is impressive - but then again - it costs about the same. I've heard good things about the Lenovo X series, but haven't had any hands-on experience with them.

One of the things however that makes the MBA shine, and this I cannot understate - is the quality of the user input. The touchpad is superior to anything from the competition, and the keyboards is something the alternative 'light weight' laptops can't seem to get right (in my opinion). These are - for me at least - very important points to make, you will use these every single time you do something with the laptop, and if you're like me, frustrated every touchpad except the ones Apple makes (seriously, why has nobody figured it out that well as Apple?). I never thought I would ever say this, but I prefer the touchpad on my air over a mouse. I expected to be put off by the keyboard but was also pleasantly surprised. Could have been better, but I guess this is very hard in such a thin laptop.

winter_blue21• 13 years ago

but using it on a desktop irritates me

What irritates you about it? (Honest question.)

I've stuck to KDE almost forever, and find it okay for most day-to-day tasks. It's got a rather Windows-ish UI. (My only gripe with KDE is the instability and bugginess that plagued the early version of KDE 4.x.) I'm running Kubuntu 12.04 with KDE 4.8 now; there are still a few annoying bugs, but for the most part it's good.

bluedino2• 13 years ago

That's it, Macs are just flat out nice. Really nice. You just can't get the same package with other laptops, as nice as some of the others are.

The other thing that keeps me on a Mac is whenever I run Linux I'm always tweaking shit - you can't on a Mac, so you just get to work instead of goofing around with settings all day. Plus everything works the way it should, you don't get some weird app you can't cut and paste in or just random things like that.

mrvista• 13 years ago

What's the ideal MBA specs for full-fledged web development?

Glench• 13 years ago

Just a small note that the power adapter on these things sucks: http://store.apple.com/us/reviews/MC747LL/A/apple-45w-magsaf...

johnwallz• 13 years ago

I won't consider a macbook air again until the screen resolution improves.

leishulang• 13 years ago

thanks for Adobe, OSX is still my de facto dev machine. If you can gimp, linux all the way.

oftenwrong• 13 years ago

I used to own a macbook and I will never buy one again. Here are some of the main reasons why:

1. Apple's laptops are difficult to service.

2. Glossy screens are terrible for viewing in sunlight.

3. For the air specifically, carrying adapters is necessary. For example, you cannot just plug an air into a TV with HDMI or an ethernet cable without using an adapter.

4. Ports like thunderbolt and firewire are not widely used, so they are somewhat useless without buying special peripherals (or using adapters).

5. No dock connector.

brandonb927• 13 years ago

Unless you have specific reasoning to get the i7+8GB of ram version, I have an i5+4GB and I absolutely love it. No gripes at all about it... well, maybe if Apple would replace the damn LCD screen that has very small bubbles between the LCD and the screen, I'd have 0 issues with it.

nitai• 13 years ago

If you only need Linux then simply get a System76 or a Lenovo one.

But, if you want a total integrated experience, one of the best laptops ever and some of the best dev tools out there, the MacOS X and the AIR are simply heaven sent.

No, seriously, I went from Linux, to MacBook Pro 17" to MacBook Pro 14" (1650x resolution) to a MacBook Air 13" (1440x resolution, i7 with 8GB RAM and 512SSD) and it is really the best laptop I've ever owned.

You got all of the best things in one machine, it great to carry around, the keyboard is simply awesome and it is extremely fast.

Best buy I've ever done.

chrisgoman• 13 years ago

If you're asking then it's worth it. This may seem like a lot of money now but in the overall scheme of things, you will be on this computer 10+ hours per day so if it makes you happy just do it. If you have to get a new computer anyway, then you're talking only about $500-700 more. Plus you can do iOS development!

Is it worth buying a MacBook Air?

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