Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

https://patternproject.substack.com/p/from-the-mac-to-the-mystical-bill

by cainxinth • 1 year ago

479 308 1 year ago

patternproject.substack.com

xeonmc• 1 year ago

Ok, where is this psychedelic community found?

I must sample their handles for videogame character names.

diggan2• 1 year ago

Ok, where is this psychedelic community found?

Bit like asking where all the beer drinkers are! People who are into psychedelics come from all walks of life and we're everywhere :) Start talking about fringe stuff with people and eventually you'll stumble upon others.

zapzupnz2• 1 year ago

I mean, it's not the same is it, because I can tell you where I can at least find beer drinkers … down the pub, at the bar.

If your bubble has people in it who have access to psychedelics, then great. If one's people doesn't have that, "just talk to people" is profoundly unhelpful. That's a very odd and specific conversation to bring up within some circles.

firtoz2• 1 year ago

There are some decent communities in Discord, for both research oriented but also hobby oriented communities of psychedelics.

sneak8• 1 year ago

I can’t imagine discussing use and possession of Schedule 1 substances on a non-e2ee, logged-in-cleartext-forever platform.

You’re opening yourself up to blackmail by hundreds of different parties.

It is blatantly irresponsible to host such communities on Discord. Possession and use are federal felonies.

trenbologna2• 1 year ago

Burning man and other festivals are a good resource

copperx4• 1 year ago

Bill disliked the expensive retreat hurdle.

dudeinjapan5• 1 year ago

Visit your local Hobby Lobby and ask around.

swayvil• 1 year ago

Farmer's Markets too

zeckalpha• 1 year ago

The article mentions Erowid

demiters3• 1 year ago

Not a big fan of the ongoing productisation of transcendental, possibly brain-scrambling experiences. Keeping them somewhat less accessible tends to filter out people who don't do their homework to understand the substance and who consider it just another novel experience to try on a whim, which increases the risk of negative outcomes.

hnlmorg• 1 year ago

That has been various governments approach to drugs for literally decades and it got us nowhere.

The problem isnt that this still is casually available. Drugs have been casually available since forever.

The problem is that pushing drug usage to the fringes makes it less safe for people who haven’t done their homework. Ironically the exact opposite of that you claimed.

demiters3• 1 year ago

You're right. I'm all for across-the-board decriminalisation btw. But I don't really know where a responsible balance would be for psychedelic availability, my intuition is we shouldn't be aiming at OTC disposable DMT vapes etc.

mathiaspoint2• 1 year ago

I think with psychedelics it's fine. The problems you're talking about are with addictive stimulants.

perching_aix5• 1 year ago

do their homework to understand the substance

Is that actually the common thing to do amongst recreational psychadelics users (i.e. is there research backing this up)?

And how do these folks "understand the substance(s)"? We (humanity) know very little about how the brain works comparatively as far as I'm aware, and psychadelics research is further relatively lacking due to regulatory and funding constraints. Most resources I hear of just seem to be compilations of anecdata, frequently muddled with subjective remarks.

demiters3• 1 year ago

I can only speak for my own circle that I know about where test kits are the norm. Anecdata isn't ideal but it does seem to be valuable as long as the reader considers both positive and negative reports equally and understands the risks rather than just yoloing. I still consider Erowid a great harm reduction resource, TripSit wiki is also fantastic, and I very much support the approach taken by the Subjective Effect Index website.

theragra3• 1 year ago

It is quite common, but not always. I, for example, even was doing GC/MS to check substance and purity. My friends listened to me about how to approach these things. So, quite common, ancdotically.

zeta0134• 1 year ago

I suppose this is a dangerous counterargument to make, especially as I'm not a substance user at all myself, but... what's wrong with wanting to seek out novel experiences? I'd much rather folks who wish to do this be able to do so safely, with good sources of information about those risks and with a support network that is allowed to talk about it. I feel like the taboo nature of substances in general causes folks with this interest to hide it from their peers, exactly the people who would otherwise be first in line to spot problems and offer assistance. Shouldn't it be okay to talk about it?

lostmsu6• 1 year ago

They are totally OK as long as healthcare is not socialized.

wbl• 1 year ago

Four entered the garden: Ben Azzi, Ben Zoma, Acher and Akiva. One looked and died. One looked and was harmed. One cut down all the trees. And one entered in peace and departed in peace.

diggan2• 1 year ago

Keeping them somewhat less accessible

I agree this is important, which is why psychedelics should be legalized so there is at least some sort of control instead of the current approach where 14 year olds can easier get their hands on it.

Etheryte2• 1 year ago

I'm of very two minds on this topic. On one hand, it's widely accepted that most (not to say all) drugs leave a permanent mark on brains that are not yet fully developed, so teenagers who are often most curious about these things. Gated access is highly desirable in this context, especially as you can't take self regulation for granted. On the other hand, many of these substances show great promise in many clinical trials for a wide variety of issues, and decades of hostile legislation has kept all of that on the back foot. Openly sharing information about these topics can help people make more informed choices whereas those who came before them often had to go it blind.

BolexNOLA3• 1 year ago

Yeah - I feel like we need a little bit more of a stripped down approach to drugs in the US. If you’re 18 or under, there need to be a lot of restrictions because we know for a fact that a lot of these things have a profound negative impact on brain development, and we also know that we don’t even fully understand the extent to which various mind altering substances can impact development. It’s just safer to say “no” until then as much as I am loath to endorse anything remotely akin to prohibition culture.

Teens will always get their hands on things so it’s up to parents to teach kids how to be safe around drugs and alcohol, but I know I personally will be really trying to communicate to my kids that they need to wait until they’re 18 to really start exploring all this stuff. I know they will before that, but as long as it’s a little experimentation here and there and not regular use I’ll consider it a success.

Once you’re past 18 or so, it needs to be all about education and general availability for most substances. Safe usage and community protections (such as not driving while intoxicated) should be the #1 goal.

justinrubek3• 1 year ago

I'd be interested in seeing specifics on brain development. When are they "fully developed" or what is a sufficient point that they could be considered to be. What other things do we practice that should be gated around brain development?

t-32• 1 year ago

I disagree. Every time I've seen someone get a "bad trip", they're people who read a lot and worked themselves into a state of anxiety over the fact that something could go wrong. If they had just approached it like "ooh lets get high and have fun" rather than "I have to do X, Y, Z or else it's going to be horrible!", they would have probably been OK. Hallucinogens have way too much gatekeeping and mysticalization around them for what they are.

Understanding the risks of buying potentially adulterated or counterfeit products is another thing entirely, which would be helped greatly by increased commodification and legalization.

hampowder• 1 year ago

Whilst that might true as per your observations, I've also seen people do zero research, take a substance in the wrong place/frame of mind, and subsequently had a more turbulent experience than they were expecting

colecut5• 1 year ago

I know two people who had prolonged psychotic episodes, as in, for weeks they were in their own world. These were both people who had many fun/enjoyable experiences beforehand.

I myself have had bad / hell like experiences a small percentage of the time, despite literal hundreds of good experiences prior.

Becoming a father many years ago significantly altered my trip experience.

Dosage also plays a strong role..

These things are generally less toxic than alcohol and it is criminal to punish someone for having them or using them.. But they are also extremely powerful, and despite potential amazing experiences, do carry risks.

And they are definitely not for everyone.

turnsout2• 1 year ago

I have a family member who jumped off a balcony on LSD and needed extensive reconstructive facial surgery. I'd call that a pretty bad trip. It's kind of kept me away from anything more than mushrooms.

Someone• 1 year ago

It also makes doing your homework a lot harder. If I want to buy alcohol, I can go to a shop and can get something that’s correctly labeled with an alcohol percentage and is highly unlikely to contain methanol.

If I go buy some psychedelic, chances are it is diluted or laced, so I would have to know how to test that what they sell me is what I asked for.

allears3• 1 year ago

There are jurisdictions where it's legal, and shops that will ship it virtually anywhere. The product is pure, tested, and consistent.

Of course you have to find such a shop (hint: try Canada), and it's still a lot of hassle for something that should be perfectly legal, and is, in many places.

throwforfeds• 1 year ago

The thing that bothers me the most are the companies out here trying to get psychedelics to a state where they own the tech and can try to make as much money as possible off of it. Not so much the part where it becomes more available with consistent quality for more users.

I was getting ads for MindMed's clinical trials of their LSD analogue a few months back and was considering signing up for it, as I'm totally down with more scientific research on these compounds. However, the idea that a corporation with a patent on an analogue that is lobbying to make it so their version is the one that is approved is kinda the worst. We already have LSD, it's cheap and it's amazing, yet here we are marching down the road of some patented version being the one that's approved for use. I get that these companies want to fund research, but this isn't the way.

jamal-kumar• 1 year ago

Welcome to the USA. Psychedelics are just the tip of an iceberg here. There's shit like highly effective cough medicines or antidepressants available in other countries which show promise in saving lives but nope mired in patent stuff and corrupt regulation...

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/european-cough-medicine-...

havefunbesafe• 1 year ago

The high horse of HN generally suggests that every person on the planet does empirical research on every step of their journey through life. I've personally seen several, otherwise normal people, one-shot their brain into purgatory with hallucinogens.

jexe• 1 year ago

Incidental gatekeeping by leaving it on the black market isn't the way to keep it safe, quite the opposite - that poses a lot of dangerous risks.

Bringing it into the light under thoughtful consideration and openly discussing and encouraging harm prevention is the only way to make this safe. Everyone should have the right to to exploring this if they want to, and there should be plenty of open discussion, research, and education. I really appreciate the open-source approach here, the spirit of this movement feels like the right thing for humanity.

flufluflufluffy• 1 year ago

I feel similar about this productisation but for slightly different reasons. Psychedelics can provide a sacred experience, at least they have for me, and I treat each psychedelic experience I have as a sacred ritual. It’s a sacrament. So forcing them into the materialist, capitalist system we currently have just feels so wrong. It’d be like a company coming out with pre-blessed Eucharist cookies. But worse because what you are shown so often reveals how insidious capitalism is, and how there is so much more than the material realm. I know this is just my personal view and experience. Anyway, I don’t feel so bad about LightWand as the whole point was the open source, sharing nature.

mock-possum2• 1 year ago

I’m fine with ‘less accessible’ - I am not fine with ‘criminal.’

dkarl• 1 year ago

Keeping them somewhat less accessible tends to filter out people who don't do their homework

I strongly disagree. Your circles might be different, but in my experience, wanting to do your homework makes it less accessible, because it tends to put you at odds with the people who are otherwise eager to grant you access. They want people with a certain mindset and an up-front faith in the process. They want people who aren't careful about ingesting psychoactive substances, are eager to put their mental health in the hands of some guy they barely know, and are going to blame their own baggage or spiritual shortcomings if it doesn't go well.

These drugs, and many others, are already pretty accessible if you are willing to take that heedless approach.

In contrast, the approach described in the article is expressly tailored for people who want to be careful and do their homework. It's for people who have access to the drug and implicitly already have access to cruder ways of using it, but who want to put in extra effort for a more controlled experience.

011000112• 1 year ago

Basically this. Many times I've gotten too casual with them and then been reminded that they are not a party drug. Persistent HPPD(ok, redundant) and long lasting anxiety and/or motor issues(tics).. inability to focus. It's great that there are people who can gobble psychs like candy and not have issues(that they're aware of anyway) but they need to chill on trying to get everyone to trip out. I get it. I felt that "everyone should try this" vibe. But seriously, no. Don't take people's psychology lightly.

fedeb952• 1 year ago

thinking that our own judgement is better than a doctor judgement, supported by a vast community and shared knowledge, is epistemically interesting. Beware that I'm not saying that doctors, or the scientific community, can't be wrong, everyone can be wrong, even ourselves.

Personally, I'd rather have a proper doctor prescribe me said medicine than take it myself.

RamblingCTO2• 1 year ago

I'd say it's irrelevant. Doctors typically have no exposure, interest nor knowledge about these things. So they are not the ones to have an opinion about it.

JKCalhoun2• 1 year ago

We should fix that then. (Timothy Leary was in fact a doctor. Perhaps though his overly zealous enthusiasm for LSD makes him not the ideal example in this case though.)

soulofmischief• 1 year ago

In an ideal world maybe, but in the real world, most doctors are conditioned by US propaganda and the War on Drugs. Their views are compromised.

Furthermore, I've had mixed experiences with health professionals. It took me 10 years across multiple clinics and states to get diagnosed with gout that I've had since at least my late teens. Laughed out of multiple doctor's offices because I'm a "healthy young male" even though each day and night was filled with excruciating pain and drastically reduced mobility. "Full test panels" that specifically did not test my uric acid, because no healthy young male has gout.

No mention of gout ever to me, of course. I had to self diagnose as the disease progressed due to lack of treatment. Got my diagnosis confirmed by a physician's assistant, because both doctors at that clinic were on vacation at the same time for like the third time that quarter. He ordered a uric acid test, and was surprised that I'd never been offered one.

Both doctors had literally laughed me out of the office over the previous months. But I was persistent and it turns out the physician's assistant there was both more thorough and more knowledgeable than either doctor, helping me finally begin a path to treatment. I was damn near about to kill myself from a decade of extraordinary pain. From my discussions with older, typical gout sufferers, my case is extraordinarily bad and most of them only experience mild pain.

It's equally as silly to place 100% trust in doctors as it is to place 0% trust in them.

z3c0• 1 year ago

When there's millions of doctors, not only are there going to be more mediocre doctors than anything, but there has to be a bottom of the barrel as well.

It took me years to be diagnosed with PTSD, a problem I knew I had. Because I am not a vet, I had to go through every other diagnosis first -- schizo, bipolar, borderline -- each with a new set of pills to take. Some of the shrinks who diagnosed me wouldn't do anything but open my file, make some remarks, and fill out a prescription, with nary any eye contact.

Finally got a very expensive doctor who wasn't under the thumb of insurance companies. Her first question, upon hearing my issues, was "how is your sleep?" "I don't, really" was my reply. Screened me for PTSD and I clocked 76/80 pts. She set me up with the proper therapy, and within a year, I was screening at 30/80 pts. All it took was asking me one question that wasn't loaded towards the doctors favorite diagnosis & prescription.

17186274406• 1 year ago

Isn't every medicine a drug, since a drug with medical application in the right dose is just called medicine?

hiddencost• 1 year ago

Given that the current regime is bringing back measles, appeals to authority are becoming fraught.

AyyEye• 1 year ago

After seeing someone I love tortured for weeks at a hospital primarily because every one of the doctors was convinced they knew better than her -- I'm very much on the 'we can do just fine on our own' train. Do some research, use good sources, let docs stop you from bleeding out if it comes to that.

gwbas1c• 1 year ago

thinking that our own judgement is better than a doctor judgement, supported by a vast community and shared knowledge, is epistemically interesting.

The medical community is concerned with physical health, mental health, ect.

The Psychedelic community is more like a religion; it is "vast" and there is a lot of "shared knowledge" if you go looking. The thing is, western medicine's purpose really isn't to do the kind of thing that psychedelics are for.

It's probably better not to conflate the two communities, because they use drugs for very different purposes.

A different way to say it: Don't confuse the pharmacy and the liquor store.

esseph6• 1 year ago

This is absolutely /bullshit/.

That medical doctor doesn't even know how most of the medications work, or why!

If it was just about "health" a lot of things with our modern medical care would be different.

corry• 1 year ago

I agree with you for the most part. But the same medical establishment that pumped opioids everywhere, demonized fat instead of sugar, claimed tobacco was fine, overprescribed mental health drugs, etc is perhaps not a slam-dunk example of why we should trust the "expert consensus" on emerging treatments and techniques.

Compounding the issue is the eye-rolling hypocrisy that in the so-called "Land of the Free", a healthcare system controlled by the gatekeepers of big pharma and for-profit companies gets a blind pass... but putting certain plants (that you can grow yourself) into your own body is considered a serious felony...?

There's at least a sliver of daylight here that mean YMMV (which I'm sure you and I would agree on) - but if you lack the freedom to choose anyways, then it doesn't matter. And the people who decide for you are clearly part of a system that is compromised by regulatory capture, political polarization, and the insatiable greed of American healthcare.

spjt• 1 year ago

With things the way they are, it's not hard to be more knowledgeable about a condition than your doctor. Doctors have to know about all the possible conditions people can have, I only have to know about the one I have, so I've spent more time researching it than the doctor.

If you don't know what's wrong with you, then a doctor is absolutely the way to go. But if you already have a diagnosis, you can go spend time researching it, the doctor isn't going to do that.

fedeb952• 1 year ago

I can't edit anymore so I'll comment. My point is that it's epistemically interesting. What makes it so is that it's hard (at least to me) to decide who's right or wrong. To do so would need an expert-level understanding of the matter at hand. That is not possible: I choose my own biased judgement, someone else potentially biased judgement, or I trust experts and a broader group of people that seems to have things sorted? Trusting others, I make the same choice (epistemically, let me stress again) as choosing my own biased judgement, after all it is my biased judgement that makes me choose that way. At some point, you have faith in something: yourself, the media, some partial knowledge of published papers (am I interpreting their relevance correctly?). My guess (but it is mine alone, going back into the loop) is that a broader group of people someone mitigates failures in having faith into the wrong stuff. This again is not true in general. All this to say, it's interesting to note how on some topics the general public seems to split into two groups, one advocating for the complete trust in the expert, the other for more or less complete self made opinions. Usually health, education, ... ? It seems to me that there isn't such a split for other topics.

croisillon• 1 year ago

the first pic looks like Jobs and Bill Watterson

WillAdams2• 1 year ago

For the technological context and result:

https://www.folklore.org/Joining_Apple_Computer.html

Still very sad that HyperCard got sidelined and that even its successor, Livecode abandoned the idea of being available to everyone --- though it looks as if folks are still working that:

https://openxtalk.org/

wvlia53• 1 year ago

This is off-topic, we are discussing drugs here.

LocalH• 1 year ago

It's not off-topic, it's the intersection of two things that Bill Atkinson was extremely passionate about.

phaedryx• 1 year ago

Hypercard was inspired by an LSD trip.

Ylpertnodi2• 1 year ago

Perhaps the gp's comment was written and posted whilst being smashed, and that's just one of the effects.

WillAdams2• 1 year ago

which the link in question references:

Inspired by a mind-expanding LSD journey in 1985, I designed the HyperCard authoring system that enabled non-programmers to make their own interactive media.

Euphorbium2• 1 year ago

I have not used 5-meo, but for n,n DMT the vape is without a doubt the most convenient method.

gavinray18• 1 year ago

I've done it a few times. Unlike DMT, you don't have to vaporize it.

It's active intranasally and well as buccally/sublingually.

Effects-wise, it feels roughly identical to DMT but with a longer duration.

fer• 1 year ago

I found it significantly less visual. As in, about as immersive, but somewhat lacking visual depth/detail to things. But everyone's different anyway.

gehwartzen3• 1 year ago

To me it feels like a completely different drug compared to nnDMT. 5-meo-DMT also feels very different depending on the roa from my experience (vaped vs IM)

temp08265• 1 year ago

As someone who has done a lot of both (as well as drank ayahuasca several hundred times), they are completely different animals especially at the full-dose levels.

franze• 1 year ago

I used that exact same image for ma Atkinson Dithering Algo Learning Page https://atkinson.franzai.com/

_fat_santa• 1 year ago

We need to push to make this stuff legal. I wouldn't go so far as to say lets sell it OTC vape pens at gas stations but a middle ground where you can go to a doctor to have this treatment performed.

I personally have never taken DMT though from everything I've read and heard on podcasts it's not something to be taken lightly. I think having a sort of "DMT Clinic" that you can go to would be the best middle ground of allowing the public access to these substances while also ensuring that there is a trained professional there to guide you through the process.

Saying "trained professional" in this context feels wired because this stuff has been underground for so long but I think it's starting to bubble up into the mainstream enough that we need to start bringing all that "into the light". Lets have training programs that teach people how to administer this stuff properly, how to deal with the negative side effects, etc.

One of the things that while I find understandable is ridiculous is the fact that Bill had to use a pseudonym in the community. I feel like if were at the point where you have C-suite types at Apple taking this stuff, it's time to think about making it available to the broader public.

temp08265• 1 year ago

Fwiw, "DMT" usually refers to nn-DMT, which is a lot different than 5-MeO-DMT (or bufo).

kelseyfrog6• 1 year ago

Agree, but the proponents of "Big Reality" really really really fight against its disruption.

pdabbadabba2• 1 year ago

Could you explain what you mean by that? Who are the proponents of “big reality”? How do they fight against its disruption?

rekttrader• 1 year ago

That’s an amazing sentence…

lukan4• 1 year ago

"I think having a sort of "DMT Clinic" that you can go to would be the best middle ground "

Well, Ayahuasca (with DMT as the active ingredient) retreats seem more and more common and are for some reasons tolerated more and more in europe. Technically it is illegal, but I can still book them online.

But I won't, as I don't trust the competence of the average new age "shaman".

copperx4• 1 year ago

I dislike the idea of potential life threatening toxicity, the constant vomiting, the feeling like shit for days.

Ayahuasca trips seem to be like edging with poison. But maybe the documentary I saw was biased.

evmar• 1 year ago

The state of Oregon is experimenting along these lines:

https://www.oregon.gov/oha/ph/preventionwellness/pages/psilo...

"A client may only access psilocybin at a licensed service center during an administration session in the presence of a trained, licensed facilitator."

hncomment3• 1 year ago

Oregon had gone with a broader decriminalization as of February 1, 2021, but rolled that back in 2024: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Oregon_Ballot_Measure_110

chrisweekly• 1 year ago

"wired" -> weird

GuinansEyebrows• 1 year ago

immediately jogged my memory for one of my favorite stupid Simpsons moments:

"why, there's no magazine called 'Weird' is there?" [0]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjZ0GBL9ArA

mosburger• 1 year ago

Last year I underwent treatments for my treatment-resistant major depression using Ketamine. It was a clinical setting, where you'd get wired up to blood pressure, pulse-ox, and other monitors while you were monitored by an RN via video camera. This was IV Ketamine, so not the inhalants that are available now. According to the clinic, the inhalants (which they also offered) are also generally less effective than IV, and the IV was safer in my case because I have other medical conditions where being able to "shut it off" was a good thing - you can turn an IV off, but once you inhale, you're on your own.

So... this clinic was not entirely unlike what you're proposing w/ DMT.

FWIW, the results were incredible. I was effectively "cured." But unfortunately my insurance changed, and it became no longer covered, and I couldn't afford the $2000 every six weeks for the treatment anymore. And it's not super convenient to take two hours off from work to go to the trip-sitter's to get the treatments.

I hope that they figure out what it is in psychadelics that make them effective at treating stuff like depression and PTSD and make it more accessible because it seems like there's so much potential there.

(Also: fuck Elon Musk for making Ketamine a punchline)

copperx4• 1 year ago

I like the potential healing value of Ketamine.

But that doesn't make replacing every instance of ketamine with "horse tranquilizer" any less funny.

notpushkin2• 1 year ago

being able to "shut it off" was a good thing - you can turn an IV off, but once you inhale, you're on your own

How does it work? Is the half-life of it shorter when administered IV?

sneak8• 1 year ago

Fun fact: the cost of the ketamine in that $2000 treatment is about $1. Even factoring in trained staff to monitor, you’re up to a few hundred bucks for the hour. It’s mostly just the failings of the US medical establishment, and, of course, arbitrarily constrained supply that results in gouging.

Just go buy $100 in street ketamine (still marked up 100x, fwiw, also because laws) from someone reputable, test it for fentanyl, and blow lines of it. Same deal, $1900 less cost. Breaking some dumb rules is far preferable to living with untreated depression.

shpongled2• 1 year ago

N,N-DMT is very intense and not to be taken lightly - but you could say the same with LSD, psilocybin, etc. Personally, I am much more wary of large doses of LSD/psilocybin than DMT, in part to the substantially longer duration of the former. Ego death and the complete dissolution of reality makes it harder to have a bad trip

gavinray18• 1 year ago

I'd generally agree with you, but:

  > substantially longer duration of the former

When time stops until the end of this universe gives way to the beginning of this universe and the snake eats it's tail, "longer" doesn't hold much meaning...

fnord773• 1 year ago

user name checks out

hncomment3• 1 year ago

A wise legalization might help with access & harm-reduction... but legalizations are sometimes bungled.

In the SF bay area – & plenty of other regions around the world – the criminal enforcement against hallucinogens is, de facto, a very low priority as long as you're not flagrantly endangering or inconveniencing others.

fnord773• 1 year ago

5-Meo is kind of nasty because it has a non-linear pharmacology.

the normal dose is 5-10mg, but LD50 in sheep is about 100mg, it might be as low as 30mg in humans.

It absolutely should not be legal, at least to anyone. Perhaps require training in dealing with drugs with a low therapeutic index

marssaxman2• 1 year ago

it might be as low as 30mg in humans.

That seems quite unlikely given that there are many 30mg dose trip reports, going as far back as TiHKAL.

OldfieldFund• 1 year ago

LD50 in sheep:

1–5 mg/kg IV

1–2 mg/kg SC

85 mg/kg O

In mice:

75–115 mg/kg IP

48 mg/kg IV

113 mg/kg SC

278 mg/kg O

They were administering over 30mg to humans in trials. (Metzner (2013); Shulgin and Shulgin (1997); Ott (2001); Davis et al. (2018); Uthaug et al. (2020a))

Sheep are susceptible to toxicity from certain tryptamine alkaloids because of their physiology.

These alkaloids, especially those that are N,N-dimethylated, can trigger neurological symptoms in sheep, such as convulsions, spasticity, and gait issues. The alkaloids are suspected to affect the brain and spinal cord by interacting with serotonin receptors.

5-MeO-DMT is an N,N-dimethylated compound. Its full chemical name is 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. That indicates the presence of two methyl groups attached to the nitrogen atom of the tryptamine backbone.

Stay safe, everyone!

gavinray18• 1 year ago

Tell me you never studied basic med chem or pharmacology without telling me...

You can't use animal models for dose, you have to convert to hED (Human-Equivalent Dosage). You can estimate this generally with allometric scaling:

https://drughunter.com/practical-pk-calculators

Also, animal physiology varies.

Beta-adrenergic agonists like clenbuterol make mice wildly muscular, which unfortunately is not the case in humans, for example.

tiahura• 1 year ago

I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve thought that what this country needs is more druggies running around.

criddell• 1 year ago

More people like Bill Atkinson? That sounds good to me.

knowaveragejoe• 1 year ago

How can you look at this and think "druggies"?

jobs_throwaway• 1 year ago

More people like Bill Atkinson and Steve Jobs sounds great to me!

edm0nd• 1 year ago

these are the 'good' type of drugs though

dekhn4• 1 year ago

Drug culture had a big influence on the creation of modern desktop computing. https://www.amazon.com/What-Dormouse-Said-Counterculture-Per... is the best-researched book I've seen on this, but after living in the bay area for 35 years and talking to lots of people, there is a lot more drug use that impacts technology than most people would expect.

damnesian• 1 year ago

Am I the only person who read the article like this: "blah blah BOTH BILL ATKINSON AND STEVE JOBS DIED FROM PANCREATIC CANCER blah blah"?

duckbot3000• 1 year ago

Steve Jobs tried to treat his cancer by eating apples and ignoring the diagnosis until it was too late… not sure if that’s really connected to psychedelics

wvlia53• 1 year ago

I'm developing a much more advanced digital device (like bicycle to spaceship compared to this). I'm currently blocked by chemistry issues.

nonelog2• 1 year ago

While DMT definitively has its merits (and is produced naturally in the human body), know also that Psilocybin allows for an increases of the human lifespan of over 50%, which is absolutely massive. [0]

It's entirely natural, easy to do, has no side effects, costs next to nothing, and can even be "fun". As usual, the media will not talk about this discovery, as it is too much of a game-changer for our current systems.

[0] https://neurosciencenews.com/psilocybin-longevity-aging-2942...

ashalhashim• 1 year ago

I assume this comment is trolling. But to be clear to readers, the link states psilocybin 50% increase in lifespan of human skin etc. not human lifespan.

nonelog2• 1 year ago

"[...] extended the cellular lifespan of human skin and lung cells by more than 50%"

If we assume that the effect is the same for all types of cells, it follows that the life is extended by 50% (when keeping "all other factors" constant, as usual).

demaga• 1 year ago

I feel like someone is trying really hard to push public perception of psychedelics towards "acceptable". I don't know who it benefits, but this is a really weird Overton window.

I wouldn't say a word if it weren't nth article about psychedelics that appears on HN frontpage. I was quiet the last n-1 times.

If you google psilocybin right now, you can see articles that state how it "slows ageing" and "cures depression". There probably is some truth to it, but only in very specific sense and specific circumstances. Most people will NOT benefit from taking the drug (as with any drug).

So it hurts my soul when I see words like "legalize" being thrown in this context. We know very very little about effect of such drugs. And the goal should not be to legalize, but rather to expand our knowledge on how it works, and create safe medicine that actually helps people.

Rant is over now. Thank you.

kloop• 1 year ago

So it hurts my soul when I see words like "legalize" being thrown in this context. We know very very little about effect of such drugs.

That seems like exactly when we should legalize it. The default is legal, and without definite knowledge of serious harm, that should be the status.

The burden of proof should be on the people who want it to be legal, and by your comment, their case seems pretty weak.

17186274406• 1 year ago

Sure, just let people use any weapon, we don't know for sure, if any particular bullet is mortal, maybe they don't cause any harm that time.

pazimzadeh• 1 year ago

It’s a lot easier to study if it’s legal. It’s also pretty hard to come up with a convincing placebo. The experience is also highly colored by “set and setting”, and the clinical environment or office space is probably not ideal for this knowledge expansion..

An article just came out showing that psilocybin extends life in aged mice, so that’s why you’re seeing it a lot. Yet we have no idea what causes this lifespan increase. Is it a result of “hallucination” experience itself , a purely chemical effect, or something in between? (aka will a ‘bad trip’ give the same effect on lifespan?)

Most people will NOT benefit from taking the drug (as with any drug)

Now you’re just making things up.

hnthrowaway03152• 1 year ago

That's something I'm really worried about, especially when SV is pushing it. And it is difficult to prove that research is unbiased.

One of the commenters of your post says "If we legalize it we can better research it". Allow me to be rude -- this is BS. If we follow this logic we should legalize pretty much everything!

I think it is polite to be rude to such dangerous thoughts. Downvote me as you see fit.

allears3• 1 year ago

But following your logic everything would be illegal! There's a whole lot we don't know about how aspirin works, for instance.

Governments should not be in the business of banning things unless there's a clear and present danger. Citizens should have the autonomy to do risky things if they want to.

justinrubek3• 1 year ago

I think a blanket ban under schedule 1 stating that it has no acceptable use is dangerous. It's a clearly false designation and doesn't have evidence to back it up. This isn't a simple matter of a dangerous substance. This is a hard-core human rights violation.

notarobot1232• 1 year ago

Related: Hypercard was inspired by an LSD trip which Bill explains in an interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdJKjBHCh18)

DonHopkins5• 1 year ago

HyperCard and Timothy Leary's Mind Mirror would be a match made in heaven!

Timothy Leary's Mind Mirror (1985) (usc.edu)

https://scalar.usc.edu/works/timothy-leary-software/index

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32578683

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oabRxvjf9k

I extracted all the text and data from the Apple ][ floppy disk:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37486524

https://donhopkins.com/home/mind-mirror.txt

https://github.com/SimHacker/lloooomm/tree/main/00-Character...

seltzered_2• 1 year ago

Related: Hypercard '200 Points of Light' demonstration (concept from 1990): https://youtu.be/H5-T_S50Sr4

DonHopkins5• 1 year ago

I finally located a video with a live demonstration of Chuck Farnham's HyperCard Smut Stack, from the auspicious journalistic production "Geraldo: Sex in the 90's. From Computer Porn to Fax Foxes"!

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42571845

DonHopkins 6 months ago | parent | context | favorite | on: ASCII porn predates the Internet but it's still ev...

Then you would have loved the HyperCard Smut Stack, the first commercial HyperCard stack ever released! I've begged Chuck to dig around to see if he has an old copy of the floppy lying around and upload it, but so far I don't know of a copy online you can run. Its bold pioneering balance of art and slease deserves preservation, and the story behind it is hilarious.

Edit: OMG I've just found the Geraldo episode with Chuck online, auspiciously titled "Geraldo: Sex in the 90's. From Computer Porn to Fax Foxes", which shows an example of Smut Stack (demo starts at 2:00 but worth watching the whole thing just for Chuck's continuous smirk):

https://visual-icon.com/lionsgate/detail/?id=67563&t=ts

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22285675

DonHopkins on Feb 10, 2020 | parent | context | favorite | on: HyperCard: What Could Have Been (2002)

Do you have the first commercial HyperCard stack ever released: the HyperCard SmutStack? Or SmutStack II, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, both by Chuck Farnham?

SmutStack was the first commercial HyperCard product available at rollout, released two weeks before HyperCard went public at a MacWorld Expo, cost $15, and made a lot of money (according to Chuck). SmutStack 2, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, had every type of sexual adventure you could imagine in it, including information about gays, lesbians, transgendered, HIV, safer sex, etc. Chuck was also the marketing guy for Mac Playmate, which got him on Geraldo, and sued by Playboy.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/could-the-ios-app-be-the-21st-...

Smut Stack. One of the first commercial stacks available at the launch of HyperCard was Smut Stack, a hilarious collection (if you were in sixth grade) of somewhat naughty images that would make joke, present a popup image, or a fart sound when the viewer clicked on them. The author was Chuck Farnham of Chuck's Weird World fame.
How did he do it? After all, HyperCard was a major secret down at Cupertino, even at that time before the wall of silence went up around Apple.
It seems that Farnham was walking around the San Jose flea market in the spring of 1987 and spotted a couple of used Macs for sale. He was told that they were broken. Carting them home, he got them running and discovered several early builds of HyperCard as well as its programming environment. Fooling around with the program, he was able to build the Smut Stack, which sold out at the Boston Macworld Expo, being one of the only commercial stacks available at the show.

https://archive.org/stream/MacWorld_9008_August_1990/MacWorl...

Page 69 of https://archive.org/stream/MacWorld_9008_August_1990

Famham's Choice
This staunch defender was none other than Chuck Farnham, whom readers of this column will remember as the self-appointed gadfly known for rooting around in Apple’s trash cans. One of Farnham ’s myriad enterprises is Digital Deviations, whose products include the infamous SmutStack, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, and the multiple-disk set Sounds of Susan. The last comes in two versions: a $15 disk of generic sex noises and, for $10 more, a personalized version in which the talented Susan moans and groans using your name. I am not making this up.
Farnham is frank about his participation in the Macintosh smut trade. “The problem with porno is generic,” he says, sounding for the briefest moment like Oliver Wendell Holmes. “When you do it, you have to make a commitment ... say you did it and say it’s yours. Most people would not stand up in front of God and country and say, ‘It’s mine.’ I don’t mind being called Mr. Scum Bag.”
On the other hand, he admits cheerily, “There’s a huge market for sex stuff.” This despite the lack of true eroticism. “It’s a novelty,” says Farnham. Sort of the software equivalent of those ballpoint pens with the picture of a woman with a disappearing bikini.

https://archive.org/stream/NewComputerExpress110/NewComputer... [taken down]

Page 18 of https://archive.org/stream/NewComputerExpress110 [taken down]

“Chuck developed the first commercial stack, the Smutstack, which was released two weeks before HyperCard went public at a MacWorld Expo. He’s embarrassed how much money a silly collection of sounds, cartoons, and scans of naked women brought in. His later version, the Carnal Knowledge Navigator, was also a hit.

0x445442• 1 year ago

This demo is a lot like Gelernter's Lifestreams.

https://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/freeman/lifestreams.html

brainless• 1 year ago

I am on the fence with these topics because I have years of fear drilled into me. These topics are a taboo and I have rarely ever tried anything at all. The experiences did not ruin me, they made me more curious about my brain in a positive way. But the social taboo lingers.

What surprises me the most is that we have accepted sugar, alcohol, cigarettes and a ton of mass manufactured food which are harming us. I am struggling with high blood glucose for 12 years. Yet, the substance which I can grow in my* own backyard and may actually not be as harmful is just brainwashed out of my limits.

edits: you to me

zoklet-enjoyer5• 1 year ago

Is there that much of a social taboo? Maybe it's just the people I hang out with and work with, but most people are open to psychedelic use and a lot have at least tried some.

skyyler2• 1 year ago

Some people’s conception of “normal people” is people on the bus or train.

Some people’s conception of “normal people” is people at a church ice cream social.

Different perspectives, I think.

lelandfe• 1 year ago

Yes, it’s your bubble. There are American states still charging people over marijuana. Having grown up Christian I personally know people in their 30s who view psychedelic and heroin users similarly. Those people would have the opposite view of you.

Years back, my friend’s parents asked me to stage an intervention for him after they found out he regularly took LSD. He was 19 at the time.

stego-tech• 1 year ago

As a similar "Boy Scout" of sorts, the fear is/was real. I didn’t experiment with so much as nicotine or alcohol until I’d tried “stuff” with the supervision of an experienced "sitter"; I ended up having some of the best times of my life in the safety and context of home and friendships. Combined with my own life experiences with drug abuse and addictions, I was able to build a healthy relationship with those substances that didn't result in dependency or abuse.

In the time since, my views have changed dramatically on these substances, and I'd like to try more of them. However, my personal moral compass prevents me from using substances outside of a legally permissible setting, at least at present - and that's something I'm fine with.

Ultimately, the taboo side of things is something the individual has to grapple with on their own. I can only commiserate with your frustrations, not help overcome them unfortunately. My only other advice would be to use any substance only to amplify good vibes, never to cope with bad ones.

If all you do is chase a lost feeling, you're missing out on what's in front of you now.

sneak8• 1 year ago

I ended up having some of the best times of my life in the safety and context of home and friendships.
However, my personal moral compass prevents me from using substances outside of a legally permissible setting, at least at present - and that's something I'm fine with.

What on Earth do laws have to do with morals?

numpad0• 1 year ago

Isn't the distinction based on whether the substance directly cause a wage gap and/or significant life expectancy loss? Someone on meth all the time can literally fatigue-free until there is no brain matter left, but someone on coffee or beer can not.

It is often argued that some of generally illegal substances like marijuana is only toxic to comparable extents as legal substances, but there are observations that it seem to trigger some types of megalomaniac schizophrenia, so the fence probably has reasons to be there, I think.

mcherm• 1 year ago

Isn't the distinction based on whether the substance directly cause a wage gap and/or significant life expectancy loss?

No. I feel QUITE certain that the distinction is based on whether or not the substance has a history of a few generations of widespread use among western Europeans ("white people").

jekwoooooe• 1 year ago

Without rigorous science and licensed professionals it would be insanity to take these drugs. They can potentially PERMANENTLY traumatize your brain possibly even _literally_ ruining your entire life. I guess that risk is worth it for some people

Ylpertnodi2• 1 year ago

Your concern is warranted, but a tad hyperbolic. Getting into a[n even minor] car crash, and thereafter recovery, can have equally devastating effects, as can being attacked by a dog.

justinrubek3• 1 year ago

[flagged]

dang• 1 year ago

Can you please express your substantive points without getting personal? I'm sure you didn't intend to cross into personal attack but this comment is a step in that direction.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

bongodongobob• 1 year ago

I used to be very active in the hippy music scene. Permanent effects are exceedingly rare. I know people who trip fairly frequently and beyond some dreadlocks or tie dyed shirts off the clock, they are perfectly normal well adjusted people. You are being extremely hyperbolic.

wtetzner• 1 year ago

I mean, so can alcohol.

hnthrowaway03152• 1 year ago

I'm skeptic about psychedelic. Is there enough unbiased research about these stuffs? I myself is interested in it too but so far it is in general illegal in Canada, and I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to try it out.

nick__m3• 1 year ago

there are plenty of psychedelics legal in Canada, I know of a few chemical suppliers that specialize in this. It's been at least a decade since I last ordered from them, but they are still in bussines.

However you said that your not knowledgeable and I guess that you doesn't have access to a milligrams scale, so your better to stay away and learn the theory first. A lot of psilocybin analog (alpha-MethylTryptamine was one of my favorite and it's still available) from Thikal are still legal in Canada so that book is a good place to start learning.

xsmasher• 1 year ago

There is not enough research because, at least in the US, there was a blanket ban on any research since 1970 when most psychedelics were placed on "Schedule I" - meaning they had "no accepted medical use" and "high potential for abuse."

"Big Reality" was either terrified of everyone becoming drooling monkeys, or people seeing behind the curtain of society, depending on who you ask.

fnord773• 1 year ago

The noun "stuff" never gets an s. I'm sure there's some easy rule for words like this.

dare9443• 1 year ago

Off-topic, but I have to...

(From the photo caption) "Bill ... with his iphone prototype"

Nope. That's a Sony Magic Link, built by Bill (and others, myself included) during his time at General Magic. I feel General Magic is another one of Bill's endeavors that isn't widely understood or appreciated.

radicaldreamer• 1 year ago

There was a great documentary on Magic Leap! https://www.generalmagicthemovie.com

Stratoscope2• 1 year ago

That is a great documentary, but it's about General Magic, not Magic Leap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Magic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Leap

dare9443• 1 year ago

Yep. I can be seen briefly in one scene, listening intently in the background while Marc Porat waxes poetic.

piyiotisk2• 1 year ago

This is my favourite documentary on tech! If you know more please let me know

yyzaxle• 1 year ago

Hi there. I will correct the iPhone prototype reference. Thanks for the heads up. - Axle / www.patternproject.ca

piyiotisk2• 1 year ago

Who are you sir? I am a big fan of the general magicians

dare9443• 1 year ago

My name is Jay. I guess I was one of the "lesser" magicians. I worked on the Telescript side, doing infrastructure for the Telescript engine. But I got to interact with both Bill and Andy, and Phil and Tony, who I followed to further ventures. My experience at General Magic was certainly eye opening and super educational.

DonHopkins5• 1 year ago

I was googling for my friend Josh Siegel who used to work at General Magic, and found this cool org chart!

http://www.datarover.com/SEKRIT/general-magic-org-chart-1994...

Josh Siegel worked in Magic Cap Core Technology with Bill Atkinson and Andy Hertzfeld (both "on loan"). At Sun he rewrote the PostScript interpreter in X11/NeWS from James Gosling's original messy design, and we worked on an X11 window manager written in PostScript. And at Los Alamos National Labs he wrote MMPORG simulations of World War III for the Joint Chiefs of Staff with a beautiful interactive NeWS front-end. (Sun was lucky to steal him away from LANL to work on NeWS instead of WWIII.)

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/NeWS/owm.ps.txt

https://www.donhopkins.com/home/catalog/unix-haters/x-window...

Don Woods worked in Communicating Applications. He and Will Crowther created Colossal Cave Adventure, and we worked on TNT (The NeWS Toolkit) together. His workstation was named "colossal" and when you logged in, its /etc/motd said "Welcome to Adventure!! Would you like instructions?" to the peril of anyone who typed "yes" to the csh prompt. Don wrote the "Spider" card game in PostScript for NeWS, after having previously implemented it at SAIL (Stanford AI Lab) and for XDE (at Xerox PARC).

https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/news-tape/fun/spider/spi...

http://www.icynic.com/~don/

After having worked on NeWS (the network extensible PostScript window system) and written a lot of PostScript code at Sun, Telescript was obviously the right approach. Today the same approach is called "AJAX".

I wonder what "SEKRET" means? ;)

http://www.datarover.com/SEKRIT

Must have something to do with Magic Cap for Windows '95, which may be the killer app of e-mail...

http://www.datarover.com/

itomato• 1 year ago

I worked for a time with a dude who was absolutely over the moon with his magic link. He got it in a way that I haven’t seen elsewhere.

Yes, he carried it everywhere. Yes, he used it during his job interview. Yes, it helped.

nsxwolf• 1 year ago

What if "dissolving the ego" is bad though?

allears3• 1 year ago

Thousands of years of Buddhist practice says it isn't

bowsamic3• 1 year ago

Thousands of years of Buddhist practice and the enlightened teachers are still getting in sex scandals. As someone who spent years in that world, I never met anyone who seemed genuinely helped by the practice

Synaesthesia• 1 year ago

Psychedelics are not some harmless cure-all. They can provide remarkable experiences, life affirming experiences and being quite effective against depression. They can also cause some pretty scary and bad times. So they need to be treated with respect. But I think they're well worth exploring.

lioeters2• 1 year ago

That's what the ego would say.

esseph6• 1 year ago

I hope research with psilocybin, DMT, and other psychedelics continue and that some of these possible discoveries pan out.

Example that just came across my news feed: "psilocin, a byproduct of consuming psilocybin, the active ingredient in psychedelic mushrooms, extended the cellular lifespan of human skin and lung cells by more than 50%."

https://neurosciencenews.com/psilocybin-longevity-aging-2942...

kmoser• 1 year ago

His open-source approach democratized psychedelic exploration, shifting power away from costly retreats and elite gatekeepers toward broader accessibility.

No surprise that, in keeping with the hacker spirit, Bill wanted to democratize information that is otherwise accessible only to "high" priests.

trenbologna2• 1 year ago

If you have ever had the experience you will want to share with the world and give everyone the opportunity to experience it.

ComplexSystems• 1 year ago

Is this different from regular DMT?

ge962• 1 year ago

People talk about getting out of software and doing woodwork Now this... I've actually done DMT one time was crazy and instant the effects but brief. I did it at a dining room table with wooden grain and concentric ring placemats. I remember seeing my arm like wtf is that. And then the grain/rings moving. Even closing my eyes I'd see colors but was over in a couple minutes.

What I had my friend made. Bought some root, had to use naptha to separate it in a fridge then put it (powder) on top of something flammable and smoke it like weed.

Further thoughts:

On a side note/comparison, weed for me it's like. Day to day you're driven by a known process/system. You have to get to work at 9 AM, go to this, then that. Smoking weed you stop and are in the moment, suddenly focused on how vibrant this red shrub is that you normally ignore. I don't smoke weed anymore because it makes me super paranoid like afraid cops are going to arrest me or I can't interact with people as I already have social anxiety. The other thing is it would enforce my delusions thinking some idea was great/fixate on some design (I was trying to use it to come up with ideas to make money).

DMT is like losing steady state/reality, solid things start to move. The colors were not solid for me, it's like when you push your eyes (while closed) and you see flashes of light. This was a long time ago I did it so might not be remembering as well, it was intense though and brief.

I have not done acid or shrooms as I have bad repressed childhood memories and I don't want to get stuck in that for hours.

Did K one time, I just sat on a couch throughout a party doing nothing/sipping on a cup of water.

K2/Salvia that stuff was whack, I felt like I was sinking into a couch when I smoked it in a shed with a buddy and I felt dumb like I couldn't talk correctly.

C and Addy, amazing. I mean if you could operate life like that all the time you'd probably die just because you'd do crazy things like do a jump that you normally wouldn't just because of the overconfidence. But yeah the ability to sit down/cram 12 hrs of work and pass a test, amazing or nail every note on a guitar. The weight loss is great but I found my p would shrink so much it was crazy. At one point started to defecate blood (was just a fissure) so yeah that was a problem. I would use A for times when I couldn't get sleep and would just do these overnighters at a data-entry job.

Also did M before (fake addy) and yeah, that's great for drinking, you can just pound beers/liquor and not feel it. The bad thing is the come downs, you are drained of happiness, can't do anything and it is hard to recover. A way to recover is to jerk off a lot. But yeah I don't do that anymore just because the sadness is crazy.

hncomment3• 1 year ago

Note that 'DMT' isn't a shortened name for '5-MeO-DMT'. While related, 'DMT' and '5-MeO-DMT' are different compounds, with different effects:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-MeO-DMT#Effects

https://qualiacomputing.com/2020/07/01/5-meo-dmt-vs-nn-dmt-t...

ge962• 1 year ago

I don't partake anymore, only drink nowadays and even that try to only do a day a week since it costs money but also I don't actually enjoy the taste of alcohol. I use it for the social aspect but then I do too much of it and do dumb things like climb buildings or try to fight people, go to strip clubs drop money I don't have. (I spent $1.2K one time it's bad since I go out to try and meet women)

My other drug of choice is adrenaline from driving fast my car currently tops out just under 160mph and I'd go even faster if I could but maybe thankfully I can't. Fear is funny too, I don't fear this but I fear talking to people ha.

I'm trying to stop this because the tickets part, I only screw around on highways when I'm alone and day time, I don't do swimming/cutting people off but yeah.

The speed thing is easy get an old ZR1 it can go 200 but going in a straight line can be boring. It's the acceleration. Recently been watching this guy drive an Elise down roads in Switzerland that's pretty fun and not that fast. I know you can track too but idk.

kragen• 1 year ago

Is the world's most powerful psychedelic the personal computer, or is it 5-MeO-DMT (Jaguar)? Not having tried the latter, and therefore speaking from a position of ignorance, I'm inclined toward the former. I think Timothy Leary agreed with me.

dpc050505• 1 year ago

Having experience with a lot of psychedelics it's completely ridiculous to put the personal computer in that category.

Timothy Leary might've drawn a parallel on the psychological impact of computers (I have no idea on the exact quote or it's context), which is enormous, but computers are just not psychedelic.

e1ghtSpace• 1 year ago

Could you help me out, would this video be considered psychedelic? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_dLx_J2oVs I made it with a personal computer.

lioeters2• 1 year ago

Computers are one of the most psychedelic technologies ever created. It literally expands the mind.

jacknews• 1 year ago

Someone please slip some of this stuff into various world 'leader' politicians' drinks. 'Dissolution of ego' seems like something that could be extremely beneficial for the world in some cases.

UltraSane• 1 year ago

I have never used hallucinogens but know people who have and one of them suffers from Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder which causes visual snow or noise in his vision. It is a bit like visual tinnitus and he says it greatly reduces his quality of life. Wikipedia has a animation of what it looks like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucinogen_persisting_percep...

bowsamic3• 1 year ago

I’ve taken a lot of psychedelic drugs. I wouldn’t recommend them. I don’t think they are at all helpful nor necessary for a fulfilling and open life. They may have some uses for addiction treatment in clinical settings. I definitely don’t think it’s someone that everyone has to experience. Sober life is best

theragra3• 1 year ago

There is no sober, society is drinking. Better acid then alcohol

bowsamic3• 1 year ago

Most people I know don't drink.

solfox• 1 year ago

Accessibility is great, but you really should have a guide supporting you for your first journey. This is very different than being (say) introduced to a computer for the first time. Having an experienced friend/practitioner/therapist there can help you go deeper, keep you safe, and support you in integrating your experience. This is probably the most potent psychedelic on the planet.

bikamonki• 1 year ago

Care to explain how this dissolves the ego like I am 5?

musicale• 1 year ago

Somehow I missed that he died just last month. The modern computing world is indebted to him I think. I was lucky enough to meet him in person once. This inspires me to this day:

https://www.folklore.org/Busy_Being_Born.html

Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

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