One way to fight loneliness: Germans call it a Stammtisch

https://www.npr.org/2024/12/22/nx-s1-5233033/holidays-loneliness-cure-stammtisch

by geox • 2 years ago

350 269 2 years ago

npr.org

ElectRabbit3• 2 years ago

As a German: the answer is IMHO in the pub culture you can find in UK and Ireland.

A socially accepted central meeting place where people can go and talk to each other. Of course also to eat and drink.

It's the social glue there and has a very very old history there.

PartiallyTyped2• 2 years ago

I don't think Ireland has the pub culture you have in mind. Honestly not much to do besides pubs here, and unless you have an established friend group, good luck making one. Locals are in their own bubbles.

Irish people are quite famous for how not lonely they are, so much so that the tiny island only has 2 or 3 subreddits dedicated to making friends and meeting people.

gerdesj• 2 years ago

I don't think that is really fair and not restricted to Ireland either. I have visited the Emerald Isle a couple of times, North and South, from the UK.

I found a culture that is definitely different in some ways but just as familiar in most ways. Just as I do in Wales and Scotland.

For example we all share a strange obsession with the weather. Obviously we don't really but the standard rules of chatting about the weather enables an easy start and disengagement from a social encounter. We also suffer from an inability to stop saying goodbye ...

Pub culture as a whole is changing massively. I remember when Ireland banned fags in pubs (a fag is a cigarette). I used to smoke and found it a bit odd having to go outside. Then the UK followed suit. With hindsight, I don't miss quite a lot of the "good old days" of smoke filled rooms that even a tabber's eyes would nearly be bleeding. Brown stained wooden chairs with plum or mustard upholstery and worryingly sticky floors and tables.

I remember chatting to a landlord of my local at the time around 1998. The boozer was called the Globe Trotters (Yeovil, Somerset, UK). It was formerly a cider house called the Globe and now its a modern effort called ... the Globe and Crown. The landlord described how he had to get rid of the "old boys" who would sit in the corner and quietly piss themselves whilst talking bollocks.

Anyway, I'm not sure what pub culture is these days. It probably died of COPD a few years ago.

Despite all that, I do think that the Stammtisch ideal is alive and well in our very odd corner of Western Europe. We just don't give it a name. Perhaps we should. The nearest thing I can think of is pub sports - darts, pool, snooker etc.

I've been playing pool badly for a team for a good 25 years now.

ElectRabbit3• 2 years ago

I don't think Ireland has the pub culture you have in mind. Honestly not much to do besides pubs here, and unless you have an established friend group, good luck making one. Locals are in their own bubbles.

I've been to Ireland many times. So cannot really confirm this.

After a night in a pub I know everyone in the town. Or almost.

vr468• 2 years ago

I miss the pubs in the UK, but they’re nothing without your mates. In Germany, I have no way of making friends or meeting people, it’s a real struggle. Too broke to go out to Meetups, and at my age it’s hard anyway.

nilslindemann• 2 years ago

Search for "sozial treff <your city>". Call there and talk to someone. The churches are also good places to ask. German churches organize a lot of social events. If I interpret "at my age" correctly you mean that you are too old. Let me tell you, especially for older people there exists tons of stuff in your city.

beAbU• 2 years ago

Join a church, and if thats not your jam, join a choir. Its making friends on easy mode.

Barrin92• 2 years ago

In Germany, I have no way of making friends or meeting people, it’s a real struggle

I used to hear this quite a bit from people who work here, as the article hints at we're a country of clubs and associations, most of them free. Be it chess, football, poetry slams, the church choir, the local CCC given that you're on HN, etc. Most unis will let you sit in for free as well. I also wouldn't worry about age. We're not really that age conscious, very few people I know care if they're around people twice their age.

People tend to bash their head in trying to make friends at work but it's probably the worst country to do this, we just work 9 to 5 and go home.

marcus_holmes3• 2 years ago

We joined a boardgame group when we lived in Berlin. We made a couple of friends, which was great, but even without that it was a good social experience. And I don't speak German, so we had to only play people whose English was up to it, which was limiting (but not as much as you'd expect). If your German is acceptable then you'll do much better.

hilux2• 2 years ago

Isn't Germany big on clubs? Join a club around an activity you enjoy - or that interests you.

marcus_holmes3• 2 years ago

I was explaining this to younger friends over the weekend - before everyone had phones in their pockets, we would head to the pub. Every Friday and Saturday evening, same pub, same time. A bunch of us would be there, and the night would progress from there. If you couldn't make it, you didn't turn up, simple as.

If we were feeling sociable on a weeknight, we headed to the same pub. There'd usually be one or two others that felt the same, and they'd introduce us to others, and the circle spread.

Go to the pub more than 3 times over a couple of weeks and you'd start to be known as a regular, and introduced to the other regulars. Over time, those random introductions became the core of your social life.

Now, of course, we don't need to do this because we can tell the group chat which bar we're meeting at. I'm not sure it's an improvement.

Aeolun• 2 years ago

There’s something to needing to actively sustain it I think.

ohlookcake• 2 years ago

As a UK resident who's recently given up alcohol, the pub culture part is the thing I miss the most. The quick pseudo-answer is non-alcoholic drinks, but it creates a weird dynamic when most of the group gets slowly inebriated over the evening, and you sip lemonade

Ntrails• 2 years ago

I've never drunk and find pubs awkward and generally un-fun. Some of that is I maybe want one small soft drink a day at most anyway, and I'm quickly just standing/sitting without a drink, worrying I've got nothing to say, and seeing no good reason to be there. 100% on me, and I only mention it as context to the below:

I've seen a lot of people drinking the modern zero/low alcohol beers (lucky saint maybe?) and it largely just works. They're happy, and get to engage feeling pretty much like normal. Obviously if the goal is to get drunk quickly then it sucks, but observationally you've got a fair few rounds before it appears to be a barrier.

Rendello2• 2 years ago

A type of third place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

hiddencost• 2 years ago

And wouldn't it be nice if there were more third places that weren't centered around alcohol consumption.

Rendello2• 2 years ago

It certainly depends on location.

mcdeltat• 2 years ago

Cool idea. Wonder how it could be adapted to include those who don't drink (already too many social events revolving around drinking IMO).

gazook89• 2 years ago

I agree. Bars around me also play loud music and/or have sports on TVs all the time, and quickly get too loud to have a coherent and comfortable conversation. Places quiet enough are not set up to have tables pushed together and a longer dwell time as people come in and out.

As a kid I joined my dad at a regular stammtisch that met at a Starbucks in the evening. That worked well, but I do think it would have benefited not just by having typical Starbucks drinks but also a few beers (giving the choice to the patrons).

As noted in the article, a coffee shop works well. But it can be tough to find a place where again it’s possible to pull a big table together. So many cafes now cater to laptop users plugging in for hours, but not necessarily for getting groups together who want to talk.

TacticalCoder• 2 years ago

I'm part of a group that regularly meets at a pub and some only drink water. There's zero issue with that. The goal is not to get drunk: it's to have fun and discuss all together while enjoying two or three beer for those who like beer.

em-bee12• 2 years ago

also my experience, when meeting with friends on austria i was often the only one who didn't drink alcohol. i can't remember a single time that anyone would notice or say anything about it.

bell-cot2• 2 years ago

Even in a small-ish city, the meanings of "drinks" and "drinking" can vary enormously, depending on the group of people.

I had a "burgers and beers" meal at a pub with some friends on Saturday. Our maximum alcohol consumption was 1 beer; minimum was 0. Several decades ago, I might have had a second beer. Maybe a dessert, too.

reducesuffering• 2 years ago

I see the same at coffee shops / cafe's that have large tables in my area

larkost2• 2 years ago

In the U.S. the name Stammtisch has often been co-opted by German-speaking clubs. I myself helped usher the Philadelphia one through a low point 20 years ago. They are much bigger now, with at least 4 weekly meeting around the Philly area (I have since moved out of the area):

https://www.meetup.com/netzwerkphiladelphia/

larkost2• 2 years ago

I forgot to mention the Madison one that I was in before then: https://www.facebook.com/groups/252293088142844/

markus_zhang• 2 years ago

That's a nice thing to have. Although since marriage and especially child birth I usually need to fight for loneliness instead. Maybe I'll do it when I'm old, you know, alone.

em-bee12• 2 years ago

you want alone time but also time away from family, which can be filled by meeting others. i know it's not easy, but i would try at least once a month. also arrange the same for your partner.

you want friends that allow you to share and open up on problems that you face. as soon as you have your first fight you'll want some else to talk to.

a psychologist also told me that putting all your companionship needs on your partner can be burdensome. for example if i like to play board games and my wife doesn't then i better keep meeting others to play instead of giving up playing

endoblast• 2 years ago

I think you've hit on the solution for most people going forward: prioritise getting married and starting a family while you're young. Don't leave it to chance or assume it's impossible. It's not the burden that our culture is making it out to be whereas loneliness is a large and growing problem.

incanus772• 2 years ago

There's a fun German pub here in Portland, OR called Stammtisch.

reinheitsgebot• 2 years ago

And their Münchner beer list on tap is unmatched anywhere in the city. Even Proust or Otto and Anita’s. Love that place.

woodson• 2 years ago

Sounds great! Are you (or anyone reading this) interested in doing a Stammtisch at Stammtisch?

BoingBoomTschak• 2 years ago

People with friends, wives and children having to "fight loneliness". lol

smallnix• 2 years ago

Loneliness is longing for connection to other people.

Loneliness does not need to relate to the number of people you talk to or that you know.

Dalewyn• 2 years ago

In an era when humanity is more connected than ever in history, loneliness is decidedly a "you" problem unless you have some sort of medical condition that inhibits socializing.

CalRobert4• 2 years ago

Modern parenting in a nuclear family is a profoundly lonely experience.

UniverseHacker• 2 years ago

The loneliest I’ve ever been was as a new parent with an abusive and distant spouse. I went years without any positive interactions or connection with another adult.

rramadass3• 2 years ago

Many cultures have similar socially sanctioned practices;

Adda: The secret to Bengali conviviality - https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20210812-adda-the-secret-...

awad• 2 years ago

Did not expect to see this here, but spot on.

rramadass3• 2 years ago

Apparently, there are even scholarly studies on this !

Friendship and Fraternity: The Cultural Nostalgia of Adda in Modern Bengal by Nabamita Das - https://internationalconference.net/program/detail/215

gwervc• 2 years ago

This was also a thing in Alsace (France), under the same name. However I only ever heard of it from my mother, as it is was a thing people did when she was young, but isn't a thing anymore since decades. Maybe in a few villages?

thiago_fm• 2 years ago

Given that control over Alsace was shared between Germany and France many times in history, it makes sense.

I believe it's still done, but it's mostly too old people. In big cities in Germany you will often seen youth that no longer do it.

analog31• 2 years ago

Dumb American moment: I once visited Germany for a conference in Munich. My hotel was out in a rural town on the train line. One night my colleagues and I walked out the door for an adventure and into the first restaurant we found, a tiny little place.

We sat down at the Stammtisch.

The waitress kindly told us that we should move. Then everybody in the place was kind of cold to us, until someone picked up from our conversation that we were from the US. The waitress tentatively asked: "Are you Americans?" Yes. "Oh, we thought you were English." All of the sudden the whole place warmed up to us, and they even brought us complimentary glasses of the house liqueur, which I can tell you was quite potent.

I don't know why they liked Americans better than English, and we didn't press the matter.

quambene• 2 years ago

maybe because of brexit. wouldn't justify it. just a wild guess

FrankoDelMar• 2 years ago

Not from Europe, but it reminds me of how Amsterdam has been actively discouraging young men from the UK from visiting because they have a reputation for being rowdy and getting in trouble.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65107405

okr• 2 years ago

Huh? Why Brexit? Why would someone be upset with the British when they left the EU? Maybe one asks why, but angry or resentful? :))

carlosjobim• 2 years ago

Of course not. Free yourself from the media bubble.

stray• 2 years ago

Once in France, a bouncer wouldn't let me in a club because I wasn't dressed properly -- so I was waiting outside while my friend went inside to look for someone.

After about a minute the bouncer asked "English?".

I said "Well I speak english but I'm American, from Tennessee". He immediately smiled broadly and opened the door for me to enter.

V__• 2 years ago

The stereotypes are: English/British tourists are drunkard hooligans. American tourists are students or dumb rednecks but friendly.

flessner• 2 years ago

Usually a couple Brits can't behave themselves at larger events (Oktoberfest, Euros) and make it into the news cycle - commonly paired with a backhanded comment like "The British underestimated the potency of German beer yet again".

There's also a large rivalry in soccer and balconing; combined with history and Brexit it really isn't a mystery.

mh-• 2 years ago

balconing

TIL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balconing

rramadass3• 2 years ago

You forgot the most important one - !!! Beach Towel Wars !!!

StanislavPetrov• 2 years ago

From what I understand from my European friends is that English vacationers have a bad reputation for getting belligerently drunk when on "holiday" that dates back many years.

HarryHirsch• 2 years ago

Die britischen Nationalsportarten: Dartspiel, Ehebruch und Fußballrowdytum

tiku• 2 years ago

Probably because of soccer..

reactordev• 2 years ago

You don’t know history, it’s been like that for centuries. It’s also something a cheeky English chap might do while on holiday in Germany. The history of that area of the world runs deep.

uoaei• 2 years ago

While in Europe, there's no extensive beefs with the Americans in sports like there are between football (soccer) fans from any two given countries in Europe.

prmoustache4• 2 years ago

It is not between soccer fans.

Many brits cannot behave when they are on vacation, mostly because of alcohol. Not all of them, but a significantly high portion of them compared to other countries. But german have similar reputation regarding being drunktards especially when in large groups.

Other nationalities may have their own reputations and clichés. Spanish people are loud, french people complain about everything and don't make a single effort to speak the local language, etc.

As always it is always about statistics and the biggest groups tend to have the more stereotypes and generalizations. But clichés often exist for a reason.

bowsamic2• 2 years ago

I haven’t experienced this at all in Hamburg, in fact they’re kinda weirdly obsessed with (their idea of) England

em-bee12• 2 years ago

hamburg is different. due to its harbor there is a long history of trading with england and other places, which i think has allowed the english and other foreigners to develop a different and in particular long standing reputation going back centuries, and also locals getting used to them, as opposed to elsewhere where foreigners only started showing up once tourism became more common.

ulrischa• 2 years ago

Why does everybody thinks first this has something to do with your nationality? This is the Stammtisch. I'm from Germany and when I come with my little son to a restaurant we also can not sit there. Same right for all

keybored3• 2 years ago

They might have been offended assuming that Englishmen in Germany would have some basic knowledge of German pub culture. So they took you sitting down at that table as a deliberate or clumsy faux pas. But then they immediately regretted their hasty generalization and how cold they were to you once they figured out you were American. And then they had to make it up to you. Because they knew that expecting Americans to have any cultural understanding while in Europe/Germany is completely unreasonable.

ChrisMarshallNY3• 2 years ago

Every Friday night, a bunch of us friends (usually men) get together, and have dinner at some local joint.

We actually interact with each other at other times, during the week, but the Friday dinner is kind of special.

I'm fortunate to be involved in an organization that includes a great deal of interaction with others, but I know that the norm for men my age, is sitting on the recliner, remote in hand.

altbdoor• 2 years ago

Had a small circle that did the same every Friday evening. But as time passes, members have gotten more commitments, and the whole thing got dispersed.

I'd like to believe that I was one of the more avid members, but waiting alone for up to hours for the next guy to pop up, made me quit too.

Last I heard, only two to three members are left, and its a somewhat odd lunch held around 3-4pm.

ChrisMarshallNY3• 2 years ago

We’ve been doing this for over 20 years.

But the “glue” that keeps us together, is the organization we’re all members of.

jprete2• 2 years ago

I think successful groups almost always have a core of devoted people who will show up on time, rain or shine, enough for the event to succeed. If you were alone for hours waiting for other people, that was a really bad sign IMO.

pavon• 2 years ago

Switching from weekly to monthly helped revitalize a group I meet up with. Getting together every week was becoming too much for folks with kids and attending randomly resulted in sparse attendance. Consolidating on all meeting the same week of the month restored critical mass which made people want to attend more.

whatisyourwork• 2 years ago

Friday night is the most difficult time to have a meal. Sunday afternoon is the best.

mattgreenrocks2• 2 years ago

I meet with a few men every 6 or 7 weeks in a similar fashion to a Stammtisch. We talk about nothing and everything. It’s more about creating the space for things to come out than any individual meeting.

I’m gradually finding that my mission in life may be to fight the widespread atomization we all feel by any means necessary.

moralestapia• 2 years ago

my mission in life may be to

Hey! I'm in the same boat, shoot me an email!

keybored3• 2 years ago

I don’t know if you can say that you are fighting a societal malaise by meeting with the same men every so often.

mattgreenrocks2• 2 years ago

Have to crawl before you can walk.

tejohnso• 2 years ago

It seemed like a typical bar hang — until one of the guys planted a little flag on the table: an insignia for their group. That seemed a bit odd: Why do these pals have a flag? Turns out, this was no random meetup for a pint. It was a Stammtisch.

"It was a Stammtisch" doesn't explain why there was a flag placed on the table other than that maybe it's common for a flag to be part of this kind of gathering group. But still....why? There are plenty of groups that meet regularly. It's unusual to plant a flag like that. Book clubs, bridge game meetups, regular pints with a friend group (that isn't a Stammtisch), Sunday brunch group, etc. None of these kinds of groups plant flags.

jprete2• 2 years ago

Book clubs and other discussion-focused groups that are open to new attendees often put up a "flag" so the new people can find the group in a public place. It's just not a literal flag, but some other kind of sign.

If the group's activity is easily visible and distinct from what everyone else is doing, it's not necessary.

The_Colonel• 2 years ago

There are plenty of groups that meet regularly.

Stammtisch can be used like that, but it can also mean the physical table ("Tisch" means table) where a specific group meets. Meaning, in some pubs, a table marked as such is effectively reserved only for this specific group of regulars. I think this is getting rarer, but I still see it from time to time.

RamblingCTO2• 2 years ago

But it does. It's simply German culture. I left another comment about the community and identity part that comes into this on another comment.

em-bee12• 2 years ago

our linux user group puts up a penguin. since the meeting is always in the same pub, the penguin is left there on a shelf when not in use

ruskzane• 2 years ago

This article really hits home. I've experienced the same struggle with loneliness in a new city. The idea of a structured social gathering, like a Stammtisch, makes a lot of sense. Maybe I should find a local group or even start one myself.

OldGuyInTheClub2• 2 years ago

I heard about these decades ago when studying German in college. Always wondered how the bar/pub deals with these. Is there one stammtisch per establishment? Otherwise it seems like a place could be full of groups not "turning over tables" in the metaphorical sense.

pj_mukh• 2 years ago

In Kolkata where I was born but didn't grow up, this is called "Adda" culture[1] at coffee houses. I guess in Germany they would call this Kaffeekränzchen. Super interesting how this pops up organically in most urban settings. Would love to join a new movement around this in my town.

[1] https://www.telegraphindia.com/my-kolkata/places/from-colleg...

tokioyoyo12• 2 years ago

I live in PNW right now, and man, oh man, I dearly miss even a watered down version of a "3rd place bar culture" of the east coast. Would be so awesome to have a designated place to just have a drink and chat with your neighbours. There are bunch of coffee shops, but most people are free in the evening. And getting just a tiny bit loose and shooting the shit is definitely more of a bar thing.

I know financially it would never make sense, but having a local pub with extremely cheap membership ($5/month) with discounts to the neighbourhood residents (maybe based on postal code on your ID?) would do wonders to me. Use that tiny bit of cash to host small events, advertise it as the meeting place for anyone who wants to come, be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable... I can only dream!

ipaddr• 2 years ago

It sounds like something simple enough for you to setup. You have the passion direct it locally and see what grows.

tokioyoyo12• 2 years ago

Problem is the funding. I can't really afford to risk at the bare minimum of $300K and try to grow it from there myself. Maybe one day, or if I find someone who shares the passion. If only there could be some weird AI angle to throw in to get some funding, am I right?!

BigFnTelly• 2 years ago

I feel this so strongly. same story as you, and the postal code idea is brilliant.

I've traveled to the Northeast US a fair bit and am so surprised at how many drinking establishments those towns can support (or not, if the bars are in decline).

Take Manayunk, a town that got amalgamated into present day Philadelphia. It's on a commuter rail line that leads to Center City. A pretty little town with humble homes on small roads nearby. The name of the town means "the place to drink" in the Lenape language. You couldn't design a more idyllic small-town so close to a heavily urbanized area, in my opinion. But I digress.

While walking around with a tomato pie I was trying to finish before taking the train downtown, I counted about 12 bars full of who looked to be regulars, all on a weeknight. laughs a plenty, no banging club music. just the sound of life from townsfolk who probably go back a few generations at least.

in contrast, the PNW has always had transient worker populations, but even homeless people here often exude friendliness and a willingness to talk to strangers. it may be because they rely more on networks of goodwill than those with salaries and lease agreements. it may be because their living quarters are closer together, whether in the shelter or on the street. whatever the reason, there is a noticable dearth of that human connection with my life in the PNW, and it's such a recurring point of conversation that the horse has now been beaten to a pulp.

the way you long for the pub culture of the Northeast US is all too familiar to me. it's my Disneyland, because it's basically a fantasy when our cities are designed the way they are.

tokioyoyo12• 2 years ago

Glad to hear someone else shares these feelings! I've met very kind and amazing people in the area, yet there is just nothing that brings people together. You'll hear from the people in local facebook groups about some small gatherings, but it's just still all "planned". It doesn't replace that "ah, i'm done with work, i'll quickly grab a drink and see who's around!" chats.

I've had incredible nights through just going to the same bar a couple of times during my travels, and people all around the world made me feel welcome. Yet here? No such thing, yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere.

CalRobert4• 2 years ago

One issue is that the "local pub" is less local, since building places like that (or even cafes) in the neighbourhoods where people live is illegal. I loved having a corner pub when I lived in Dublin.

Though regarding membership - maybe check out an Elks club?

tokioyoyo12• 2 years ago

I live in one of the densest neighbourhoods in NA, and I definitely agree with you how it's mostly illegal to open a pub in extremely residential zone. That being said, there are like 10 bars I can think of that's around me. But none cater for that "local pub" atmosphere.

What's Elks club? My googling only led me to something in New Westminster, if that's the thing you're talking about.

portaouflop• 2 years ago

Having a local place where people live is illegal? I knew it was a bit special abroad but that is wild.

consf• 2 years ago

A setup like that could transform the way people engage with their local community

tokioyoyo12• 2 years ago

Yeah, I’m on the younger side, compared to the old timers I’ve met at the bars. But from what I’ve gathered, nowadays, people want to choose their friends and curate their circles. There’s much less importance given to serendipity and just local connections. Some sort of easy activity (weekly grab-a-drink at a pub) would be great, but convincing people that it is a great way to spend time might be a challenging (but fun!) mission.

Was in London recently, and my friend dragged me to her watering hole on the first night… made me jealous instantly.

anal_reactor3• 2 years ago

be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable...

That's the crux of the issue. Since the rise of individualism, everyone has a different definition of "fun", which means that everyone has different expectations, and it becomes impossible to organize anything that is actually fun for everyone. Case in point: why work parties are so dry? Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator.

A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.

tokioyoyo12• 2 years ago

Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator.

I know bartenders who have a customer list that they never serve for various reasons. It’s easier to implement it in a neighbourhood level, as there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding.

Case in point: why work parties are so dry?

I get what you’re saying, but my work parties have been nothing but dry (and definitely, very far from dry) up until my current job. I just changed a few months ago though, and until I relocate, can’t really experience what they have to offer.

Agreed about the party hosting part though. It’s pretty tough to get some of my friend circles to do something together for the same reason. We can usually muster up for our big traditions though, which I think can be done in a local level too.

aziaziazi4• 2 years ago

As a guest I'm feeling less confortable when the host is organizing something specially for me: I'm coming to have time with you, probably talking. Eating, smoking or whatever is a nice plus if we happen to share the same interest and if we don't that's fine, I won't have a bad time if you didn't prepare my favorite meal. I'm not the birthday kid.

I understand some people fun is to organise for other folk's fun, that's a generous motivation. But sometimes just behaving/organizing the way you likes it yourself makes other more confortable. Just tell them what food you'll prepare, if smoking inside/window is allowed and at what time you'll be ready. If they're grown up they'll manage to have fun by themselves, they come to see you not for your food.

prmoustache4• 2 years ago

Since the rise of individualism, everyone has a different definition of "fun"

I don't think this is anything new. Back one or two centuries ago there were clubs and societies for people having common interests, social classes and behaviors.

A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.

I think you overthink it. The one who organize is the one who decides. You define a place, people adapts or don't come. Simple as that.

In any group of friends or acquaintance, there are those that comes since the beginning, other who are always late, some who always leave early, some who are heavy smokers and spend all their time smoking outside, others who can't handle the smoke and stay inside and some who adapt and spend time in both area. Some people who always disappear for a while. In that group, some people barely spend time together. That is fine, you don't have to be the all of us together from start to finish.

aziaziazi4• 2 years ago

I was in Iran 5 years ago and the "3rd place" was the tea/coffee places full of men mostly talking and playing chest during the hotter part of the day. Women gathered at home on their huge sofas. At Friday/Saturday night (IIRC) all the cities families go out and gather in public parce for night picnics. It's a fantastic experience to have. People make music, kids plays together, and families talk to each other over the shoulder. There's many wrong things with that country but ho boy they know of to gather. People bring their huge carpets and some food/drinks. Sometime they're walking merchants or a small kiosk.

I now live in suburb of Paris, there's probably more muslims that in the average French city (but they're still a strict minority) but no coffee place neither an alcool one and definitely not collective picnics at night.

Xmd5a2• 2 years ago

Justine, you need to learn to think for yourself.

ANewFormation3• 2 years ago

I'd no idea chess was so big in Iran. Alireza a household name?

orwin• 2 years ago

From may to October, you should go to the 'quai de seine', between the Seine and Jussieu/jardin des plantes. It's young, but you'll see families, a lot of people learning to danse and picnic. With the occasional rose/wine seller. Probably the Parisian place I hate the less, with 'Chez Amel' near Canal st Martin (La station is fine also but too snob for me).

bell-cot2• 2 years ago

Old (American) geezer PoV - that sounds very similar to any number of fraternal and veterans organizations of a half-ish century ago. And not dissimilar to what many municipalities are trying to do with senior citizens' centers. And ...

Financially, the secret to the old fraternal and veterans halls was that they were built when it was (relatively) cheap & easy to build in America. And their membership was dedicated enough to pay for that, then do most of the work of running the place.

These days...a few such place and organizations persist. But mostly, relentless capitalism has optimized away American's willingness to undertake any activity which fails to enrich Wall Street.

HEmanZ• 2 years ago

These small local bars are usually illegal in the US unless they’ve been grandfathered in. The solution probably isn’t some fancy new membership scheme, just literally allowing them to exist in the first place. At least, we should try that first.

bratwurst30003• 2 years ago

could you tell me why? as a german with a pub in every little village i cant see the reason

specialist• 2 years ago

We used to have some of these. Back when rents were much lower.

eg The Last Exit on Brooklyn (near Univ of Wash campus). Just show up. Very diverse clientele. All tables were open (no bogarting open seats). Cribbage, go, chess, boardgames, whatever. Mostly with strangers. There was also regular poetry slams, open-mic, music, whatever.

I've long wondered how to recreate such venues.

Places like Mox are great. https://www.moxboardinghouse.com/seattle/ I've been many times along with my son's crew (gamers, artists, slackers).

But the qwan is just a bit off.

Why?

Is it because we banned indoor smoking? People used to just hang out and smoke, taking in the vibe. (Gods, as a non-smoker, I loved cigs and espresso and cribbage and talking shit. Not that I'd ever want to allow indoor smoking again...)

Is it because places like Mox require merch sales to remain viable? Alcohol sales are way down, so venues need something.

Any way. As an old, if my local public library served espresso, I'd never leave. Our book club has tried to meet at libraries a few times, but it always sucks. Our libraries are definitely not "third places".

/ramble

tokioyoyo12• 2 years ago

I absolutely agree with every single sentence. I've tried some group meet ups as well, but it just doesn't pan out. Going out by myself is also boring in the area, because for whatever reason, everything feels like a "destination for a group". I enjoy going out for drinks with friends, sure, but would be nice to have the "sit at the bar, shoot the shit, and have a drink by myself" option.

From my previous experiences, that culture is still alive in parts of Europe, Hong Kong, Japan and so on. But it just doesn't work here...

My guess is the alcohol prices, as convincing yourself that paying $13 for a drink + tip, is not a good idea if you do it a couple of times a week. Ideally, you'd want people without money to be able to afford it as well, as they tend to be the "culture makers" because of the time and availability. Alas, it's hard to make that happen in current economy.

Oh well, we're stuck in this weird predicament, i guess.

ping00• 2 years ago

Come to Harry's on 15th on Thursdays (8:30 pm + ). It's where the local hackers (2600 and DEFCON crowd) usually hang out and socialize. Ask Will (the bartender, who's great) for the hacker crowd and he'll point you in the right direction.

I moved up here 6 months ago, and it's been a great group of people to hang out with. The conversations are tech/tech-adjacent for the most part, but I've also spent hours chatting about Magic The Gathering, Seattle Public Transit, and Neal Stephenson. I got my HushCon invite just from showing up regularly enough that people recognized me.

I actually found out about this because of another meetup on Thursdays: Black Lodge Research up in Redmond has an open night from 7:00 pm onwards. Great little makerspace, and a welcoming community. But it's definitely a schlep up there, especially after a workday so I haven't been back in a couple of months.

I'm not a big drinker, but it's nice to have a constant event on Thursday evenings that I can look forward to having a beer or two at (I actually have a custom drink that I came up with Will called "Pondwater" -- building up some lore like that is fun and is a sign of setting down some roots). I'd say Harry's is my "local bar" since I live about a 15 minute walk away. On the note of social drinking, there's a few sober people who come as well, and there's no compulsion at all to drink alcohol to be a part of the in-group. Hope I see you there sometime and I'd be happy to introduce you to the crowd; look for the Indian guy :)

tokioyoyo12• 2 years ago

I’m across the border, unfortunately! Otherwise would take your invite on a heartbeat, really appreciate it. Maybe next time I’m down in Seattle!

croes• 2 years ago

Don’t you already need to know the people before you are part of the Stammtisch?

That means you already aren’t lonely you just have a common spot in a pub with your friends - HIMYM vibes incoming.

tanvach• 2 years ago

I’m getting from the article that you can get invited to these as well as keeping existing friendship going.

ofrzeta• 2 years ago

Don’t you already need to know the people before you are part of the Stammtisch?

You do. And the classical eponymous Stammtisch isn't really inviting to newcomers. I've spent time in German Wirtshäuser (but maybe it's more extreme in Bavaria) sitting at a table next to the Stammtisch alone but they would never invite you to their table.

It's just not how it works, at least in Bavaria. Usually the Stammtisch is an extremely tightly-knit group of locals that frown upon everything new. Somehow over many years you might earn your right to an invitation.

Also if you go to a Wirtshaus it is easy to spot the Stammtisch (the actual table - it always has a bell) and even if it is empty you may not just sit there without permission just like in some kind of religious ritual.

Of course everyone is free to use the term to their liking and you call a regular meeting in different locations a "Stammtisch" but that is not how it is traditionally.

zelphirkalt3• 2 years ago

Alone != lonely.

grumblepeet• 2 years ago

I worked in Nuremberg for a while and was kindly invited along to the English Stammtisch which at the time was in different bars on a few nights throughout the month. Lots of English people but also lots of German folk who wanted to work on their English language skills. I made some good friends on those boozy nights and tons of fascinating conversations were had.

elric• 2 years ago

Similar thing in Belgium: "stamcafé" or "stamkroeg" in Dutch. It just refers to your local pub which you (and maybe some of your friends) frequent often enough to be a regular. Not to a table. Mine isn't even local, I regularly travel 60km by train for beers and good company in a nice atmosphere.

The flag thing sounds like a very German thing to do. Maybe that's why German tourists are notorious for using towels to try to reserve chairs in tourist resorts the world over? Like draping a flag over a Stammstuhl.

RamblingCTO2• 2 years ago

We always liked to organize in fraternities and "Vereine" (club) since the Kaiserreich. Everyone and their mom had a specialised frat or club for identity and community. And they had flags, colors, songs, customs and all of that to show belonging. You have things like the Wandervogelbewegung (think boy scouts), Pfadfinder (actual boy scouts), Bündische Jugend, Schützenvereine and things like that. I really mean there was a (is) community for everyone, complete with uniforms and stuff.

Typing this I get a bit sad that these communities are missing nowadays and didn't really made it into modern life. Hitler used a lot of them for his purposes and after WWII it was just old people is what I think about them nowadays. It's too conservative and traditional for me.

Got a bit off track with the comment, but I was replying to the flag thingy. As a German it makes total sense.

Ringz• 2 years ago

Maybe that's why German tourists are notorious for using towels to try to reserve chairs in tourist resorts the world over?

Perhaps the Germans started it, but they are by no means the only nation doing this anymore. They may not even be leading in this discipline anymore. Over 20 years ago, I already observed English people reserving the best poolside loungers with towels before sunrise.

begueradj• 2 years ago

I saw last night, in a French documentary, a middle aged man who lost 90% of his friends few months after he lost his job.

em-bee12• 2 years ago

that's why it is important to make friends outside of work. and for friends at work i try to find common interests that are unrelated to work.

anshumankmr• 2 years ago

Nothing similar in Bangalore. Quelle suprise... Though we have something along the lines at work "Chai/Sutta par charcha"

numpy-thagoras2• 2 years ago

I live in the PNW, but come from Croatia. When I went back after a long time away (about 7 years) and having grown up, I observed something with complete disbelief:

My friends from there, would go to their friends' ice cream parlour, grab some coffees and a beer at 8 PM. For the next four hours, they would do nothing but tell funny stories and laugh until they couldn't laugh any more. These guys literally spent 4 hours laughing together.

They did this the next day, and the next, and many more until I had to reluctantly go back to the airport and fly back to the PNW.

Nothing even remotely like this has happened since last going back. Every time I think back to it, it seems like some impossible other reality.

lars_francke• 2 years ago

First time I saw "PNW"

It probably means Pacific Northwest.

Aachen• 2 years ago

What even is to the north west of the pacific ocean, do they mean Korea/Japan?

pavlov• 2 years ago

Curiously there’s someone else in this same comment thread also using PNW without explaining the abbreviation.

It’s giving me Baader-Meinhof phenomenon vibes.

Anyway, for the benefit of non-Americans, the “PNW” is basically Seattle and Portland, and it’s mostly like California but with winters.

zeristor• 2 years ago

PNW is Pacific North West I take it?

At first I thought it might be some part of Papua New Guinea

johnchristopher• 2 years ago

HN loves their acronyms. They sometimes say it's because they were on mobile but I don't believe it.

crossroadsguy2• 2 years ago

Google gives first result as "Purdue University Northwest". But assume that's not what OP meant, or did they? Pacific North West is the second result.

This seems to be a very American thing - using acronyms that is American only but then that's what HN must be - mostly American in terms of members :)

blitzar• 2 years ago

It is Penge West railway station (PNW) in the London Borough of Bromley in South London.

cloverich• 2 years ago

Ubiquitous initialism in the area, generally living here a few years i find the climate and culture to be relatively homogenous from far northern california through seattle (and presumably vancouver BC). Very different (for still American) from the other areas Ive lived or frequent (Northeast, south, parts of Cali). Mild, wet climate; passive, introverted, polite culturally (very generally speaking).

arg20241223de• 2 years ago

i too have witnessed this in many places outside the USA. seeing people of all ages, just talking for hours. whenever i’m in one of these situations, i feel like living in the USA has made me an unskilled conversationalist in comparison.

tomca322• 2 years ago

This is what I miss the most. I moved to the US 12 years ago, also from Croatia, and while I have friends here, the lifestyle there is just conducive to spending time hanging out with people.

It's really like a different reality.

Coffee before work? Sure thing. Another coffee after work? Absolutely. Drinks in the evening? Definitely.

The thought of not seeing your friends for a month or longer is just absurd over there. If you don't see them regularly they're not your friends. The whole culture is built around spending time with people, and I only realized that after I left.

I enjoy living in the US, but man, I do miss having such a social life.

bdangubic• 2 years ago

I moved to the US in 1992, also from the Balkans. America has an entirely different way of life. I have been "best man" at 5 weddings and have christened 11 kids. I hardly see any of them. Everyone is "busy" running around, work work work, then errands etc etc... in most of Europe this would be unheard of, there is higher value placed on social aspects of life. Hence the myriad of studies and stories and... about general loneliness in America (these studies often include people that are married and have children).

Another personal example - my sister is highly educated, has two PhD and I consider her the smartest person I know. Years ago we were discussing something and I mentioned that one of my dear friends is seeing a psychiatrist. My sister scoffed... And I was taken aback to say the least. How can someone that smart and that educated dismiss someone who is basically a Doctor and spent years educating themselves in this field. After talking through it I realized that if you have robust social life, myriad of friends, different friends to talk to about different things (as well as family) you just might not need a psychiatrist to talk to... Just an entirely different kind of life/existence...

lotsofpulp5• 2 years ago

grab some coffees and a beer at 8 PM. For the next four hours,

I feel like very few people in America could afford this in the places the vast majority of the population lives, especially multiple days per week. Even a couple hours of hanging out at a commercial establishment seems like it would cost $20, and many are designed for higher turnover so that you aren’t sitting there for 4 hours while nursing a couple coffees.

Not only are land/rent costs high in the places central to where people can meet, but labor costs at 8PM to 12AM are high too.

grouchomarx• 2 years ago

Four rounds of beers for three people anywhere on the west coast is like $100 now. Even in Copenhagen you can find a tall Tuborg for $1.50. Very sad

numpy-thagoras2• 2 years ago

Yeah I don't think any of them spent even so much as €8 on everything, mostly coffee, some ice cream, literally a beer and that's all they needed.

MagnumOpus• 2 years ago

Yeah nah. Twelve beers in a bar in Copenhagen runs to $100 too, just like in Seattle (at 60 DKK each).

Of course you can get it 5x cheaper in the supermarket, but the same is true in the US.

josefrichter2• 2 years ago

Same thing in Czechia, except the Stammgäste meet several times a week..

josefrichter2• 2 years ago

In Lyon, France, there are traditional “eating and drinking societies” called Francs-Mâchons. You can see them also in the Lyon episode of Parts Unknown with Tony Bourdain on YouTube.

anthk• 2 years ago

The Basque Country too, both in France and Spain. We call the 'txokos', in Spanish, sociedad gastronómica (no translation is needed).

ahartmetz4• 2 years ago

I think there used to be a similar thing in Germany, the "Kulturverein". AFAIK, these were similar clubs about nothing particular (presumably, food and drinks were served when they met) - but these days, the few remaining ones are actually about promoting art and culture, it seems.

dschuetz• 2 years ago

Ironically, the Stammtisch culture in Germany did not exactly help to counter the loneliness epidemic, if anything it softened the rise. People are lonely more than ever still.

richardw• 2 years ago

Last week I joined about 19 other guys who meet at 6am for a light exercise, sharing and coffee routine on a beach. It’s great. Just pitch when you can, instant network. It seems fundamentally there for mental health (combating loneliness and all the things that leads to), but so many other beneficial side effects. Recommend.

eska2• 2 years ago

As a German I was really surprised that this isn’t something that’s done everywhere. Personally I’ve been running a Stammtisch for Japanese for 15 years now, and taken part in 2 others for over 10.

It’s really not complicated. You ask the bar owner whether you can have a table at the bar every month, and how many people will come, that’s it. If you do it Monday-Thursday it’s better for them, because the bar will be emptier and they will know how many waiters to call in. They might even make drinks cheaper for you.

usr1106• 2 years ago

There are different meanings to Stammtisch. What you describe is more like a regular meetup around a special topic. Those are not marked as Stammtisch in the pub, altough attendees call it like that.

The other meaning is high alcohol consumption and extreme populist opinions. That's the Stammtisch of the pub.

eska2• 2 years ago

I don’t think that was ever true. A Stammtisch is not primarily about drinking, with something more refined on the side as an excuse. But I can imagine raging alcoholics like to believe that.

weinzierl• 2 years ago

Stammtisch is closed society. The fact that the members do not close the doors behind them and sit in public should not let fool you. Never sit at the Stammtisch table (which is not always obviously recognizable) if you were not explicitly invited.

In essence it is not unlike a British club. Not much help against loneliness if you are not deeply integrated in the community already and therefore likely not very lonely to begin with.

The less romantic way to see it, is that it is a hundreds of years old customer loyalty program. Regulars get a guaranteed seat and other perks like artfully crafted beer kegs with their names.

Moru3• 2 years ago

Also a good place for under the table negotiations for state contracts but that is less spoken about :-)

nisa3• 2 years ago

As a German: you are exactly right. Sitting down at the Stammtisch is asking for trouble. It's reserved for the die hard locals - it's coming from Stammkundschaft which roughly translates to regulars. Still it's perfectly fine to sit next to it or somewhere else in the bar. Usually sitting directly at the bar is the place for newbies or foreigners and people are often willing to talk and interact. Sometimes the bar keeper is interested in having a conversation or someone ordering a few beer initiates a conversation and invites you to their table.

Unfortunately my experience (in eastern Germany, maybe it's not universal) you tend to meet lot's of broken and fucked up people in bars and very little normal ones. At least I seem to have a talent to attract assholes and fascists that tell me their world view after a few beer. But this depends on the bar and the area. It's not all happy happy live.

bratwurst30003• 2 years ago

i live in southwest germany and that seems like a esst germany problem. here i can meet interesting people in bars. for sure drunk nuts but hey its a bar. i think the real german thing against loneliness is the Verein. you go there and share interests with people and usually u become friends witj them.

zelphirkalt3• 2 years ago

I think that very much depends on the Stammtisch. There are also welcoming ones and open ones. Some you might have to RSVP for, some you hear about from friends.

xg15• 2 years ago

Another German here: I think the term has become a bit overloaded and may mean different things.

Generally yes, a Stammtisch is in theory the exact opposite of an open "just drop in and join" culture that might be the idea of a normal pub.

However, the term has also been coopted for low-friction, introductory meetups of larger organizations, fan communities, organized subcultures, etc. (Those can be anything from political parties to hobby groups to the local furry community)

They still have some formalism - you're expected to go there if you 're either already a regular or have a specific interest to meet people from the organization/subculture/etc; many ask you to register in advance - but they do have the explicit purpose of "onboarding" newbies and serving as "entry points" into larger communities.

So I think those kinds of organized "Stammtische" can be effective in combatting loneliness, but more as a tool to bring people into organized communities and less as a thing of its own.

nisa3• 2 years ago

Thanks, that other meaning was totally lost on me. I only ever knew it from bars / Kneipen / and so on.

teekert• 2 years ago

Last year I wen't to fosdem alone, met up with some people who listen to the same podcasts... We had a great time!

You know when you are forced to socialize and you don't know what to talk about? Well, that doesn't happen when you are with a group of people who are all avid self-hosters, they all have cool setups and there is so much to learn.

It may feel weird, but it's so worth it to do this, even if you generally have a bad time in some bar while your normal (normie) friends are out socializing with the people around them.

em-bee12• 2 years ago

every linux user group. wherever i go i look for them.

but boardgames work like that too. see my other comment.

nox101• 2 years ago

Stammtisch might help a little but for me, loneliness comes from lack of a lover. It's not the sex, it's the support, hugs, caresses, pillow talk, companionship that, at least I, need.

I had a weekly drink up for 15yrs and seeing friends 3-4 times a week for dinner and activities. It was 100x better than not but not sufficient to cure the loneliness of not having a life companion.

Of course good relationship > single > bad relationship

zelphirkalt3• 2 years ago

This is what many people in relationships, especially many of those who have always had an easy time getting into relationships, don't get. How much their partner is a support for them and how much more exhausting it can be to live without a partner to support each other. Of course that is also a kind of work and effort needed, but each gives as they can and when they can and if that works out in sufficient amount, then the relationship has a good chance of surviving.

ahartmetz4• 2 years ago

Worse still, bashing on "incels" is totally fine.

mjsweet• 2 years ago

When my wife and I lived in Canberra, we made friends with a few couples who met at alternate homes every Sunday night, almost without fail. I miss that so much. All I want to do is have dinner with the same group of people every week. We moved to Melbourne and then back to Brisbane, but we were never able to replicate that.

junga• 2 years ago

In German there's also the word Stammtischparole (barroom cliché). It basically describes views and ideas so populist that no one dared to say outside the Stammtisch. Until recently…

crossroadsguy2• 2 years ago

Around here the main culprits of spreading loneliness, esp. among men and women in their late 20s and later, are marriage and kids and the victims are those who didn't go for it, or didn't happen for them. Now, we can get into the deep debates of "you can be lonely in a family or among people" but let's keep that aside for some other day.

It must be a different geography/culture thing but if I want to deal with loneliness a bar or a pub is probably the last place I'd go looking for people to spend time with drunk. Hobbies, workshops, sports are the venues that work. For me letter writing seems to work - but very little. Met some friends and if they are from nearby cities or my own city then we kind of make time to meet et cetera. But it's not sustainable.

What this article lists is more like - there is already a group of friends who meet at a reserved table regularly. How does it even begin to work against loneliness? Loneliness IMHO is when you have no one to spend time with or they can't make time or you can't make time.

It comes down to this - you might want to figure out what kind of person you are early in life (as in mid 20s early) and what do you need in life in terms of company and possibly work on possible loneliness later in life - or plan against it - but that doesn't happen, does it? Also, at least in our generation's case, the social scene changed faster than one could cope and the COVID was almost like pulling the rug. Before and after were so different that felt unrecognisable. I have friends who loved the closed world of COVID and couldn't care less about the lack of people who give them their time and want their time, on the other hand there are people like me who are getting more miserable everyday for the lack of it and now wonder whether going for marriage probably would have been a better decision practically and realistically. Then you wonder maybe not.

My fight against it is by keeping very fit, resuming running, resuming reading (as in active reading otherwise it never stopped), get into cinema (again actively - join some film clubs/forums etc), multiple weekly sports (and one daily), and starting gym (which is part of keeping fit of course) et cetera. And the most important - I am still dealing with it - is fighting procrastination. The keeping fit part really helps, it might not seem so. But it does. It helps both physically and mentally.

ANewFormation3• 2 years ago

Kids and marriage also make it practically impossible to not meet other people.

If someone did a study on loneliness vs fertility rates, it'd probably be a near perfect correlation.

The modern era of Tinder, normalised deviancy, and so on is really setting people up for a very uncomfortable later life. And I say 'later' but it's really the overwhelming majority of your life, especially if you discount your earlier years where we're all just basically retarded.

em-bee12• 2 years ago

Kids and marriage also make it practically impossible to not meet other people.

yes and no. the problem is that most of those other people are parents of my kids classmates, and i can't choose them. unfortunately many of these are the type that i don't want to associate with.

em-bee12• 2 years ago

you might want to figure out what kind of person you are early in life (as in mid 20s early) and what do you need in life in terms of company

it took me 30 years to really understand what i need in life in terms of company. going by my feelings in my 20s i would have missed the things that actually matter. when i got married i had a long checklist of things that i thought would matter, but later i realized that many of those things didn't matter and some things that did matter were missing.

today i can say that what matters to me first and foremost is absolute support and loyalty and an extreme gentleness. because those are in my character and it works better if it goes both ways.

in my 20s i was completely unaware of these traits, so i would not have been able to look for them.

it should be noted that i believe that loyalty and support belong in every marriage, and the issue here is that we are not teaching our children how to be good partners or friends. and we really should be doing that more

changadera• 2 years ago

Surely it should be called national socialising?

OldGuyInTheClub2• 2 years ago

That's well and good until the table has one too many and invades Poland.

chasd004• 2 years ago

I wonder if I suffer from loneliness. I see my wife, MIL (she lives in my garage apartment) and two boys everyday but that’s about it since I work from home. Last week and lady came by and did a medical evaluation for my life insurance renewal. We chatted for a few min while she drew my blood and filled out paperwork. It was the highlight of my week and just talking to her was an amazing experience. I think I need to get out more haha

fidotron• 2 years ago

Coming from the UK to NA one of the big shocks of bars/pubs here is the near insistence on table service (and tipping). A major benefit of the UK and Irish setup is they are far more open mixer environments, for humans and dogs alike. This Stammtisch is classic NPR thinking a european solution exists while ignoring that it replicates the exact same cliquiness promoted by their over regulated environments.

It is very clear that younger generations are rejecting all of this anyway, partly due to reduced drinking, but seem to lack adequate substitutes. Several younger colleagues have flat out expressed the view that the idea any romantic couple ever met in a pub or bar is just Hollywood nonsense, and they were completely serious.

698969• 2 years ago

A friend recently created a discord server to match board game players travelling on the same ICE train (German long distance trains). https://bahn.party

There's a bot that lets you search trains and then creates a channel for the one you select and you meet with others on the same train and play board games or just have a chat.

Feels apt to share in this thread.

lippihom• 2 years ago

I don't take trains as much as I should but this is awesome - love it.

Macacity• 2 years ago

this sounds great! Sadly it's on discord and not publicly accessible

npc73x• 2 years ago

yes, it's true, the current state of social media is too toxic to interact with people. I don't want to interact with people who actively or encouraging the hates and spam contents.

idunnoman1222• 2 years ago

Literally go to your local and become a regular… tale as old as time

asdf6969• 2 years ago

Written like an alien trying to understand friendship

bentt• 2 years ago

I’m an American. I play soccer once a week with a mix of Americans and Immigrants. Recently I started meeting for coffee after with some of the guys. This was prompted by a Serbian, but in attendance regularly is a Hungarian, a Jamaican, and occasionally some Vietnamese guys. We call it the UN but more importantly, these guys know how to sit and talk. The regularity of it makes it more likely to continue.

It has done more for my mood in the past few months than anything else. Just sitting and talking and having coffee. As a group. Just men.

johnea2• 2 years ago

Personally, I have no idea what y'all are talking about.

I enjoy seeing other people, I went sailing with a group of friends yesterday, but I absolutely enjoy spending most of my time alone.

How anyone can be "lonely" with 8 billion other people on the planet is just incomprehensible to me. For me the whole place is just way too full of people. I really relish my time alone.

This has to be some "raised on the internet" kind of millennial phenomenon.

As a barely boomer, born at the end of the '50s, the US population has tripled since my childhood. I really miss the open spaces that weren't packed full of people.

em-bee12• 2 years ago

loneliness is not about not wanting to be alone. it's about finding it difficult to connect to others even if you actually enjoy it. i am fairly introvert i guess and i can walk through a city with millions of people without connecting to anyone, which is mostly ok, but at the same time i also feel unable to connect to anyone just like that.

the last time i was alone in a city for a few days the only person i connected to was a friend of a friend who introduced us.

otherwise i usually look for specific activities like tech meetups, or other public social events

Thiez• 2 years ago

Personally, I have no idea what y'all are talking about. > I enjoy seeing other people, I went sailing with a group of friends yesterday, but I absolutely enjoy spending most of my time alone.

That's wonderful that you don't have this problem at all! And that none of your friends have ever been lonely either. I sure hope this lack of personal experience won't make it hard for you to emphathize with those who do suffer from loneliness.

How anyone can be "lonely" with 8 billion other people on the planet is just incomprehensible to me. For me the whole place is just way too full of people. I really relish my time alone.

Uhoh. Let's start with the 8 billion people nonsense. How is that relevant? One is unlikely to meet the almost 3 billion Chinese and Indians in, say, Alaska. The fact that billions of people exist somewhere else is not helpful. Doubly so because with most of those billions there is no shared language, no shared culture or experience, and generally little else to build into a meaningful connection.

I would argue that we can reasonably exclude the earth population that you are unlikely to meet on a regular basis. This filters out about 8 billion, leaving us with "only" millions for those living in or near big cities, and hundreds to thousands for those who live in the middle of nowhere.

All of this is ignoring the fact that people manage to feel lonely even in a crowd or even at a party. Ultimately loneliness is not about being alone in the literal sense but about not having (enough) meaningful connections. Having no connections in a crowd of millions only emphasizes the loneliness, it does not solve it.

This has to be some "raised on the internet" kind of millennial phenomenon.

Dismissing the existence of elderly loneliness and spitting on a younger generation all in one sentence. Jup, kids these days, they suck right? You could really try some more empathy with people going through hard times and not dismiss their lived experiences just because it hasn't happened to you (yet).

As a barely boomer,

Ah, there it is.

I really miss the open spaces that weren't packed full of people.

Sure, but the US still has many places where you can walk for hours without meeting someone. Or you could move to Alaska. If that seems like a hand-wavy bullshit argument, consider what your 8 billion people argument might feel like to someone who is lonely.

Maybe next time you go sailing ask your friends if they or someone they know have ever felt lonely, and try to stop yourself from arguing an dismissing their stories. You might learn something.

johnea2• 2 years ago

I would rebut that this isn't a lack of experience of being lonely, of course I've felt lonely at times.

This is on the contrary for the OP a lack of the experience of feeling OK with themselves. Along with a neurotic belief that they need someone else to make them OK.

Any mental illness resides only in a person's mind. Therefore the only solution is from within that person's mind.

In short, get over it and move on. Stop wallowing in your self serving misery... Unless you actually want to feel that way...

smeeger• 2 years ago

if you arent in contact with other people frequently enough that they start to get on your nerves, you will not fix your loneliness problem. thats why everyone is so lonely because everyone refuses to be irritated or deal with even the smallest amount of other peoples problems. “meetups” and discord are so unbelievably anemic and useless for the purpose of helping lonliness

iteratethis• 2 years ago

In the Netherlands we call it a "stamkroeg", your home bar.

I've had the routine to attend one on most Saturdays and Sundays with a group of mates for 15 years straight. It's fun, relaxing and in a way also efficient if you have a large group of friends. A predictable moment where you catch up with everybody.

Then most of us had children, but we continued with a home version of the routine. We meet every Sunday, same time, and we rotate whom is hosting it. I thoroughly enjoy it because this is exactly the age where friendships water down.

And there's a very interesting side effect. This group of old bar mates effectively become extended family to the children of the hosts. They see all of us very regularly, often more than their grandparents or uncles/aunts which they typically have few of anyway.

And it keeps going. As we see these children grow up, we throw opportunities at them. For sports, work, anything.

I suppose it's common sense. When people spend regular time with each other, bonds and networks form. Common sense as it is, the modern age has few institutions to facilitate it.

mediumsmart• 2 years ago

Not sure about loneliness but for Germans, Stammtisch is indeed one way to fight.

rurban• 2 years ago

It's an age-old German tradition where a group of like-minded people — traditionally men — meet up at a bar or a restaurant at a regular time to have drinks and chat.

Actually my wife has much more Stammtisch events with her groups than me. And esp. the chatting is also more intense. In Germany

One way to fight loneliness: Germans call it a Stammtisch

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