18 Months with a Framework 13

https://www.projectgus.com/2024/09/18-months-with-framework-laptop/

by todsacerdoti • 2 years ago

132 91 2 years ago

teekert2• 2 years ago

Nice review, those flimsy USB-A ports and the floppy hinge are pretty near deal breakers for me! Hope these are fixed on newer gens. I'm currently on a second hand HP ProBook (I always buy used business models, 2-3 y/o, with "good as new" status), but I'm definitely having a good look at the framework line-up when this laptop dies (or one of my kids needs a laptop.)

tommiegannert• 2 years ago

I didn't expect screen hinges to be the biggest annoyance.

Also, sleep issues. Any more insight? Is this related to the S3/S0ix issue discussed recently? https://blog.jeujeus.de/blog/hardware/laptops-will-not-sleep...

dmm• 2 years ago

The 12th gen Framework supports both s2idle(s0ix) and deep(s3) sleep. I use s2idle, because it's the default.

    $ cat /sys/power/mem_sleep 
    [s2idle] deep

At one point I did a quick comparison of the two and deep sleep performed a little better. I haven't attempted any tweaks to optimize that though, like eliminating sources of wakeups.

I haven't had sleep issues like the author describes. The difference may be that I run Fedora workstation which has a opinionated ootb experience and tracks the "stable" kernel, currently 6.10.

It could be a difference in usage too. I rarely use thunderbolt, for example.

dathinab• 2 years ago

I didn't expect screen hinges to be the biggest annoyance.

it really depends on what you do with it

I'm perfectly fine with the hinge strength and wouldn't want to stronger hinges.

But I can see that it's quite sup-par if someone idk. frequently uses it in quite bump situations or cares a lot about the angle of the screen not changing when idk. carrying it open around with one hand maybe handling a kid with the other or similar. Like if I lift it besides the touch pat with one hand and shake it a bit it (without much force just a bit of up down "shaking") the screen will open/close (depending if it was more open or closed before). Through I thing I might have some of the very very early "even worse" hinges. (But then for my mostly in-homes use-case it really doesn't matter for me).

Wrt. the sleep issues it's pretty much the issues discussed recently i.e. not OS specific and hard for Framework to fix. I can't say too much about it as I default my setup to sleep-then-hibernate since many year so I never really cared about "long deep sleep" working well.

roland352• 2 years ago

Last year I crunched my Framework laptop - basically bent the screen and the top shell badly enough that the screen was dead. Luckily I was able to purchase a new top shell and screen for ~$150 and replace it myself! I also popped in another stick of RAM while I had it open.

I am not sure that level of diy servicability is even possible with any other laptop!

tourmalinetaco• 2 years ago

Depending on the model, Thinkpads come in fairly close to Frameworks.

https://www.ifixit.com/repairability/laptop-repairability-sc...

someothherguyy4• 2 years ago

L14 Gen 2:

https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/products/laptops-and-netb...

No official videos for newest models, but not as easy as a framework, IMO.

panick21_2• 2 years ago

I just broke my screen and replacement screen will take 24 weeks.

minkles2• 2 years ago

I did that with my previous MBP (2015 15" retina). The lid cost a lot more but was quite easy to replace. Also I've replaced many many bits on thinkpads before for myself and other people.

someothherguyy4• 2 years ago

MBP Display https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5rYqscZRpk

Framework Display https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Display+Replacement+Guide/86

(If you needed to replace the top cover as well: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Top+Cover+Replacement+Guide/...)

Also, no options to swap the RAM in a MBP after 2012.

xvector2• 2 years ago

Do you think it was a durability issue or would this have happened to any laptop?

roland352• 2 years ago

Oh definitely my fault. I stepped on it!

ekianjo3• 2 years ago

you can do the same thing on pretty much any thinkpad

Refusing23• 2 years ago

replacing the motherboard, with new cpu etc ?

while still fitting within the frame and so on

marcus_holmes2• 2 years ago

Purism. I got shipped a dud screen and they told me to open it up and check all the cables, etc.

Then the battery died and I had to replace the motherboard - they shipped me a replacement (for not much) and I did the replacement myself. Kinds fun and very simple. All the screws and fasteners are standard and obvious.

solardev6• 2 years ago

You got a broken screen when you bought the thing and they made you do the repairs yourself? And then charged you to replace a broken battery..?

Why would anyone do business with them?

noobermin2• 2 years ago

I bought my Framework laptop and promptly moved to a country with a lesser species of human, if we were to use framework's logic, I assume. I mean, it wasn't until like last year they opened up deliveries to Taiwan, you know, the country where the thing is manufactured. Of course, europe, the US, you know, the countries with real people™, has had access to their marketplace since day one.

So, I've spent three years with a dying battery and bashed case, a warped screen shell, but I have no recourse. Honestly, it would have been better to buy an actual open source laptop that allows generic replacements, not one from their own store that, let's be real, will go kaput one day when the founder gets bored. The whole "diy serviceability" doesn't really square when you can't get your own parts.

Hackbraten• 2 years ago

and promptly moved to a country with a lesser species of human, if we were to use framework's logic, I assume

I feel you.

I’ve been in your shoes, and I used to hold a similar grudge. But what I’ve realized lately is that selling products to foreign countries is a massively complex mess of tasks due to local laws and policies, which can be ridiculously counterintuitive. Vendors need time and money to learn all the pitfalls for each individual country and to figure out how to manage the remaining risk properly.

If Framework knew how to ship you a product without risking violating local regulations left and right, they would likely be happy to do so.

heraldgeezer3• 2 years ago

You think it's easy selling something all over the world? They sell where the most market is.

bartvk• 2 years ago

On one hand, you can't expect a small outfit like Framework to offer cheap worldwide shipping.

On the other hand, you have a great point about "DIY serviceability" being useless if you can't get parts for a reasonable price.

dustincoates• 2 years ago

I moved to a Framework 13 (with Ubuntu) for my personal computer back in January from a Surface Pro (with Windows). I've mostly been happy with it, though, like the author, I'm not doing anything too demanding with it.

My biggest complaints are the battery life and heat, as well as the terrible speakers and webcam. It's also not as easy to travel with as the Surface Pro. Plus the fingerprint reader, although I'm not sure if that's Framework or Ubuntu at fault. But I love that this exists, and I'm overall very happy.

fatfox• 2 years ago

Lots of people say the fingerprint reader should work out of the box on Ubuntu, but I also never got it to work!

mrbigbob• 2 years ago

In july Framework mentioned they were replacing the webcam going forward and the new webcam should be shipping by now (they originally said august) https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-13-deep-dive---a-la...

beefnugs• 2 years ago

11gen intel framework has been mostly very good to me: but the reminder why linux desktop is ouch was inevitable : Ubuntu 22.04 is stuck on a kernel version with bad intel driver for 11gen (after 6 months ago the problem was discussed on arch forums)

That is a fundamental flaw to me, that ubuntu ships known bad kernels to the world capable of complete UI lockup requiring force alt+prtscrn+REISUB

(ubuntu 24.04 upgrade just released and fails, but now instead of figuring out why, my eternal anger means i am going to have to spend lots of time learning these nix or "atomic" distros that prioritize being able to switch kernels "easier?")

worble• 2 years ago

Reasons like this are why I jumped ship to arch a long time ago. The amount of issues you get are about the same but they get fixed a heck of a lot quicker. And now flatpaks are popular I can use those for most applications without worrying that a random lib update isn't going to brick it, as would happen somewhat often for aur stuff.

I've played around with Fedora Silverblue and the like but there's still a lot of friction with entirely immutable distros, having to layer packages is a slow and painful, and setting up a consistent development environment is hard; I'm not entirely sure how I'm supposed to install dev tools in a toolbox and get my IDE environment from a flatpak to integrate with it. There's probably something I'm misunderstanding about how I'm supposed to set this up but a quick search at the time didn't lead to anything.

Regardless I'm mostly comfortable with sticking to arch for a bleeding edge distro and drivers, knowing that if I do get an issue it'll be fixed relatively quick, and always keeping linux-lts kernel handy along with timeshift backups if anything does cause major issues.

rscho• 2 years ago

GRUB allows to choose your kernel at startup. Had a bad Debian (testing) update, chose an older kernel for a while with no problem at all.

homebrewer• 2 years ago

Presumably you've tried using hardware enablement kernels?

https://ubuntu.com/kernel/lifecycle

I concur with worbie, rolling release distributions are where it's at: it's the least painful way to use a desktop (reusing the famous phrase, they're the worst operating systems, except for all the others). I recently had issues with the latest kernel, but a) they were fixed within a couple of weeks, not a couple of years, and b) I simply installed linux-lts while fixes were being worked on and continued with my work.

mschuster91• 2 years ago

Ubuntu 22.04 is stuck on a kernel version with bad intel driver for 11gen (after 6 months ago the problem was discussed on arch forums)

Ubuntu's fuck-up aside, it's really trivial to compile yourself a kernel, even one that gets wrapped in a .deb package [1].

[1] https://kernel-team.pages.debian.net/kernel-handbook/ch-comm...

xvector2• 2 years ago

I really admire people that are willing to go the whole way to daily drive something like the MNT Reform or Linux+Framework. It definitely requires a certain dedication and commitment to a principal.

knallfrosch• 2 years ago

After reading the comments here, I agree.

I always imagined myself as a Framework kind of guy, but I'm not sure I could bear that level of quality after using Microsoft Surface Books, Macbook Pros and now a Thinkpad professionally.

I really don't need bad hinges, weak USB ports, weird screen hinges or operating system worries.

G3rn0ti• 2 years ago

I really don't need bad hinges

The hinges were changed a long time ago and affected only the first generation laptops AFAIR.

weak USB ports

Never had these issues. But the ports are little modules you just slide out and replace by sliding in. No screwdriver necessary. I have seen bad USB ports on laptops you had to re-solder if not placed on a separate board ...

operating system worries

Well, Linux remains Linux. You can run Windows, too. But Framework has fully-fledged Ubuntu support and even provides UEFI firmware updates via the Linux vendor firmware service. I had one for my Framework 13 AMD (although no UEFI related problems as far as I was aware) and the update worked like charm.

CalRobert• 2 years ago

I've been using just Ubuntu and a framework for the last two years and like it. I don't know if it required much commitment. After 10 years on Ubuntu I can't stand Windows and find it much harder to use.

teekert2• 2 years ago

It does, but then you get to look down on others, much like vegans and EV drivers, so it's worth it.

I kid, of course, but there is some truth in there, I do feel good about my own privacy focus, the sense of control, etc.

Anyway, greetings from the moral high ground, it's nice up here.

arianvanp• 2 years ago

The laptop is also prone to occasionally cooking itself in a bag and discharging the battery while "suspended". This might be a Linux problem not a Framework problem:

It's actually a Microsoft problem. They've crippled any kind of sleep in x86 because they want to be able to spy on you whilst the laptop is off.

Any laptop after 2013 is basically unusable.

The framework laptop is so bad compared to my MacBook that I basically never use it. As any time I put it in the bag the battery is dead the next day.

Same with Windows and Linux. No difference. The thing just will always die after a day.

I either use my MacBook or my T430 for which I can still buy replacement batteries They're the only kind of sane devices.

I hope Microsoft's push to ARM will fix all of this mess and we can leave this chapter of buggy Intel and AMD "laptop" crap behind us.

Link512• 2 years ago

On Linux I've configured the OS to hibernate when I close the lid instead of sleeping. With today's SSD speeds, waking up from hibernation instead of sleep only adds 5-10s. Unless you're constantly opening and closing your laptop lid, that shouldn't affect your daily routine that much

wakeupcall• 2 years ago

It's a work-around at best, and not a nice one if you consider the wasted disk space.

I don't understand why all vendors are actively trying to kill S3 sleep. It doesn't make any sense.

Idesmi• 2 years ago

I managed to enable S3 sleep on a modern laptop with AMD Ryzen 7 6800H by using Smokeless UMAF: https://github.com/DavidS95/Smokeless_UMAF/

arthur_sav• 2 years ago

As a kid I installed Ubuntu in the first laptop I ever owned. One day, I put it in my backpack. It probably woke up from sleep and got fried because it was unusable after that.

Still holding a grudge on Linux for that one.

solardev6• 2 years ago

Heh, the first time I installed Ubuntu, installation took a while so we went out to lunch.

When we came back, the laptop had partially melted and burnt through the glass table underneath it... pretty scary stuff.

sofixa3• 2 years ago

To be fair I've had the exact same issue with my M1 MacBook Pro. It has even drained its battery sitting on my desk for a weekend.

ndiddy• 2 years ago

At least Apple lets you turn it off. Go to Settings -> Battery -> Options and change "Wake for network access" from "Always" to "Only on power adapter" or "Never".

rsynnott2• 2 years ago

Do you have any weird corporate management software running on it? That can do all sorts of nonsense, unfortunately.

If not, turn off "Power Nap" (https://support.apple.com/en-ie/guide/mac-help/mh40774/mac - the option is, annoyingly, kinda hidden.)

Confiks• 2 years ago

Same. Including weird audio clicks during supposed 'sleep' (already happend during heavy load while awake). Then one day this summer it just died without any recourse.

consp• 2 years ago

> The laptop is also prone to occasionally cooking itself in a bag and discharging the battery while "suspended".

I've had this problem and updating the linux firmware packages to the kernel repo ones of all components fixed it 99.9% of the cases. It's an AMD though so ymmv.

Still want S3 sleep instead of fake-S3 aka S2-idle aka spy-sleep.

ffsm8• 2 years ago

Why would it be resolved by Microsofts Push to ARM if it's caused by Microsofts desire to spy on the user?

Also, the issue generally goes away as long as you detach the power connection before you're closing the lid, because the issue isn't actually caused by Microsoft.

They do want to spy on the users though, this just isn't an issue related to that.

SR2Z2• 2 years ago

ARM chips are generally better at conserving power than x86, simply because they have less instruction decode HW.

croutonwagon2• 2 years ago

Completely agree. Google modern standby or hybrid sleep. Its terrible.

I just full hibernate or shutdown when going into a bag. This is as true for my work thinkpad, as it is for my personal razer as it is for our more family/general use framework 13 that is de facto my wifes computer.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan• 2 years ago

Not sure if I'm missing something, but the term "sleep" has never meant "power down" in Windows. It's just a lower power state that keeps all your applications running.

AFAIK you can still enable hibernation (which does actually power down the machine) in the control panel.

TiredOfLife• 2 years ago

because they want to be able to spy on you whilst the laptop is off.

Source?

justin66• 2 years ago

I had all the same problems but had the opposite conclusion, that I’ll never give them any more of my money if I can help it. Of course that could change if the mainstream x86 laptops continue to get worse and worse.

OJFord• 2 years ago

I sent Framework a video much like the one showing floppy hinges in OP, and they shipped me replacements free of charge that I could swap myself in a couple of minutes.

An unfortunate production issue, but that and a screen issue (I can't quite remember, a dead row I think) made a nice early showcase of user serviceability for me.

skerit• 2 years ago

I love my Framework 16 with Linux. The only problem is the battery life. From 100 to 20 in 4 hours or less.

szszrk• 2 years ago

On which CPU?

aktuel• 2 years ago

The freaking arrow keys are the single reason I'm not going to buy this thing.

ekianjo3• 2 years ago

yeah they are not great. too bad they still dont fix it on newer models.

commandersaki4• 2 years ago

The idea was anyone could create replaceable parts, but I haven't seen anyone come up with a new keyboard.

suyjuris• 2 years ago

I have a Framework 13 (AMD 7640U), running Arch Linux, and overall it is nice. It is convenient to have an HDMI port again and I did not encounter issues with hardware. (Sleep drains the battery somewhat quickly over longer time periods, but I put it in hibernate anyway for that.)

However, the screen broke down after a few months and support initially refused to replace it, citing “customer induced damage”. As far as I can tell, this is both untrue and illegal (under German law, within 12 months after purchase all defects are presumed to be due to the original condition of the product, for which the seller is liable; that presumption can be overcome, but you would need some reason). They relented eventually, but it certainly soured my opinion on both the product and the company.

AJRF3• 2 years ago

I have a Framework 13 (AMD 7640U) and sometimes the machine will just freeze up, crash and reboot. I've never had that happen with another laptop (mostly been on MacBooks for the past ~8 years) - is that something that happens to other people?

I have the most up to date bios. Happens on both Windows and Linux which makes me think it's a CPU problem.

lawn• 2 years ago

It hasn't happened to me yet after a few months.

heraldgeezer3• 2 years ago

just freeze up, crash and reboot

And the logs say, what?

Done a reinstall?

Tried Windows and Linux?

My Windows desktop would do that, but I had to re-seat the RAM sticks and it was fixed.

AJRF3• 2 years ago

And the logs say, what?

You've caught me in my laziness, i've not really learned well how to read logs after a crash. It's inexcusable that I don't know how to do this, and I am now inspired to Google around for how to do this, I'll start with Windows at thats my current installation.

Done a reinstall?

Yeah many times.

Tried Windows and Linux?

Yes, Win 11 and many flavours on Linux. Happens more on Windows, but does happen on Linux too.

thekurst_• 2 years ago

I just setup an AMD Ryzen™ 7 7735HS and this is the first time I’ve ever had an AMD powered device and it’s also just freezing completely, blank screen and then rebooting occasionally on Windows 11. The most annoying part is there are no logs in Event Viewer. No Blue/Green screen nothing. Also doesn’t happen during intense CPU activity or anything, it’s seems random and I’ve had the device for less than 30 days. I’m wondering if it’s worth troubleshooting or if AMD systems just aren’t that reliable or maybe I just got a dud. Concerning that other users are having similar trouble on Linux as well.

croutonwagon2• 2 years ago

Not sure if Framework has a similar setting but we have seen this with Ryzen thinkpads specifically with Win 11.

Our fix was to turn off the CPU Power Management switch in the Bios.

AJRF3• 2 years ago

Thank you will try this

commandersaki4• 2 years ago

Going to copy/paste from a comment I posted a year or so ago. I have a 12th gen Framework 13", 13" M1 Air, and a 15" M2 Air. I use the Framework laptop for work because I need to use Linux.

The Framework laptop is mediocre just like pretty much all PC laptops. The hinges are awful, if you pick up the laptop upright, about 50% of the time the screen falls flat 180 degrees.

The trackpad is arse in Linux. If you're lucky you can probably get 5 hours battery life, but on a realistic workload you're looking at 2-3 hours.

The keyboard is pretty nice, but I wish ctrl/fn is swapped like Apple and it has the inverted mini-T keyboard arrows (or at least I wish someone would make a swappable keyboard for the Framework). The speakers are bloody awful. Display/Webcam/Mic are fine. I would like more ports over modular ports, but I appreciate the design that went into the modular ports. Speaking of modular ports, sometimes they abruptly stop working and require removing and reseating.

All these small nits really add up and it just feels like a mediocre experience. It is my work laptop, but I try my best to avoid using it over my PC with WSL2 or either Air laptop, but I try my best not to mix work and personal. Both the 13" M1 Air and 15" M2 Air are just amazing compared to the Framework, and I suspect PC laptops in general. They have their drawbacks, price (gouging in some ways), less ports, can't drive dual displays, but their trackpad, finish, speakers, etc. are just amazing. I personally prefer MacOS to Linux for a desktop experience as well.

For one C++ project I work on I need 32GB of memory to compile as sometimes the oom-killer will kill the compiler. That's one of the only reasons I use my WSL2 desktop or Framework laptop since memory is cheap.

IshKebab2• 2 years ago

Interesting read. This feels like quite a deal breaker though if you're going to run Linux:

The laptop is also prone to occasionally cooking itself in a bag and discharging the battery while "suspended".

I've heard of that being common on Linux laptops in general (fortunately mine doesn't do that). Why is it so difficult to do right?

commandersaki4• 2 years ago

It's common with PC laptops. Mac doesn't cook but it doesn't fully go to sleep either.

I set my framework up with a little over 32GB of swap so that I can do hibernate. Resuming takes about a minute, but at least it's not draining battery since it is shutdown.

IshKebab2• 2 years ago

Mac doesn't cook but it doesn't fully go to sleep either.

The battery drain while a Mac is sleeping is insignificant, so I don't think it really matters what kind of sleep it is.

Resuming taking a minute is unacceptable. That's slower than a cold boot.

class3shock• 2 years ago

For anyone thinking about a Framework I would echo the same final thought. They have there issues but are really worth giving a shot.

I have a 16 that had a motherboard that got bricked by a bios update. After trying everything to fix it that their tech support advised I did get a new motherboard shipped to me. Not a trivial thing to replace but doable and I've had no issues since. I realize that to many just hearing about that failure would turn you off of getting one but if it were any other company, I would have to send it back and more than likely the whole laptop would be scrapped. I probably also would have gotten the run around to get the approval to fix it first. I wish it just worked perfectly out of the box but their response was about as good as one could hope for.

I can also say that on the 16, the hinge issue is fixed. I have a type A port but haven't used it heavily yet so can't comment on that one. As far as the sleep situation, I've been running linux for close to 10 years as my daily driver and I've had sleep issues off and on the entire time (with two previous Dell XPS 13's running mostly Ubuntu or Fedora). So far I haven't had them with the Framework 16 but I'm sure some update will trigger it at some point.

I don't use my laptop for work, just for personal use, so maybe that lets me lean towards things that are a bit more finicky but if you care about open hardware this is a product that deserves your support. Having basically taken one apart as much as one can, I feel confident saying alot of good design went into this thing to make it physically durable and easy to take apart/assemble.

kinow• 2 years ago

I replaced my old Thinkpad T530 that has been my daily machine for software development (Python, Docker, Java, workflows, some HPC work) by a Framework 13 AMD about two months ago.

So far everything worked fine. I've limited the battery at 60% as I work with it plugged into power most of the time. I use earphones most of the time, but when I had to use the speakers they were alright.

Camera, keyboard, and trackpad are good too (better than what I've been using). And I haven't had any issues with the monitor hinges (not sure if lucky, or newer batches have the problem fixed).

Once my CPU fans got really excited with some containers and kernel upgrade running in parallel, and wouldn't go off. I restarted it (I had a decent number of tabs open too, to be honest), and then it quieted down.

I limit the CPU performance as I use it for programming (have IntelliJ, WebStorm, and PyCharm open at the same time sometimes, with Firefox with 20 to 40 tabs, and sometimes containers running in the background, and SSH connections to servers. Everything works fine. If I open Blender or something else like a game, then the fans definitely wake up and kick in.

But otherwise very quiet, and the performance is good enough for me. It came with the latest bios installed, and I had no issues installing drivers (Ubuntu 24.04, and using XFCE BTW, everything working OK). So, so far a happy user.

18 Months with a Framework 13

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