2013 H1B Visa Supply Nearly Exhausted

http://it.slashdot.org/story/12/06/12/0149237/2013-h-1b-visa-supply-nearly-exhausted?utm_source=slashdot

by moubarak • 14 years ago

74 118 14 years ago

it.slashdot.org

ed209• 14 years ago

I've been thinking of moving to the Bay area for a while from the UK. Everyone I follow / engage with seems to be there so it seems like a good place to go.

One thing I'm hearing though is that companies are not that interested in hiring H1B candidates (at least for design) - I'm surprised that the increase in take-up is due to tech companies. Any Bay area companies able to comment on this?

ropiku2• 14 years ago

I really did not feel that. I just graduated in the UK and will move to the Bay area in fall (when H1B starts). All the companies I talked to were totally ok with H1B.

excuse-me5• 14 years ago

Then they are either $BILLION mega corps with a big legal dept or they have no idea about H1B.

Essentially if you aren't Intel/MSFT/IBM you don't stand a chance of getting an H1B application through

manishsharan2• 14 years ago

As a former H1B, I would like to point out that there are two types of H1B candidates: ones who got a degree here or are switching a job from an outsourcing company and seeking a American employer and the ones who are placed as a part of a larger team by an outsourcing company. The former are a part of a self-selected pool of risk takers. If you are a running a start-up, you are better off with the them as they have the mental toughness to withstand risk.

eli_gottlieb• 14 years ago

And the latter are subverting the ostensible purpose of the H1B visa towards outright labor arbitrage.

jrmg3• 14 years ago

Err, and then there are the people from outside the US that have applied for a job with an American company in the usual manner, have been selected as the best candidate for the position, then need a way to legally relocate to the USA and do the job...

tejaswiy2• 14 years ago

That's usually not how it works. I can only tell from my experience on what happens in Inida, but you usually apply for a "consulting" company which is basically a front for a shop that takes 30-50% cut in the developer pay by sponsoring them a H1 and sending them out to companies that need developers. A part of this is faking the number of years of experience they have on their resume, completely faking the technical expertise etc.

US govt. has kinda caught up to this and is rejecting many H1Bs that were sponsored by consulting companies now. So make of that what you will.

manishsharan2• 14 years ago

Agreed. And they also belong in the former category -- they are taking a risk and moving from away from their comfort zone.

My point was H1B candidates of the former type have self-selected themselves into a pool of skilled risk takers and could perhaps be an asset for a start-up. But your mileage will vary.

As for the latter category, you are not really hiring an employee ; you are merely hiring a vendor . Buyer beware !

spiralpolitik2• 14 years ago

There are actually 3 types of H-1B candidates:

Bodyshoppers - Faux consulting companies that recruit H1B workers from overseas with promises of a life in the US and a Green Card and place the "consultants" at US corporations to fill developer positions. Usually while they are paid the "market" rate as per DOL guidelines the companies sometimes deduct "fees" from the salary for the first year or so giving the candidate not much to live on. The green card never materializes and the candidate is usually threatened with having to pay back all the fees if they leave. Some are really good candidates who come into the US this way and usually jump ship as soon as they can if they can find a US company to sponsor the H1B. There has been a crack down on this over the last several years so body shopping isn't as common as it used to be.

Outsourcers - Companies who specialize in transferring work development overseas. "Consultants" come to the US on a H1B for year or so to learn the process and systems then head back overseas to setup the development team offshore. Was very in vogue a few years ago but seems to have slowed down as more companies realized it doesn't work as well as advertised.

The third category is companies who genually are seeking the best candidate for the position and cannot find anybody locally. Really these companies should be sponsoring the candidate for a EB1, EB2, or EB3 green card however the process takes too much time (1-2 years+) and doesn't give the company as much leverage over the candidate as bringing them in on a H1B. If you are coming in on a H1B these are the companies you want to work for, but make sure you get any promises for Green Card sponsorship in writing otherwise it probably won't happen.

itcmcgrath2• 14 years ago

Don't forget H-1B isn't the only VISA you can hire people under.

If you want to hire from Australia, there is a VISA that is roughly equivalent called the E-3. It has a cap of 10K, of which less than 3K are filled yearly. This is the VISA I have.

Not saying you will necessarily find the people you need down under (if you cannot find them in the US), but it is possible :)

Aloisius• 14 years ago

Interesting. I had no idea we had a special visa program for Australia. Are there any other countries we have special visa programs for?

netvarun• 14 years ago

The other two countries with special allotments are Chile and Singapore http://immigrating.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/h1-b1s-chile-and...

millerfung3• 14 years ago

Great to see this as I am graduating soon in Sydney, will definitely check this out!

meric2• 14 years ago

I study finance in Sydney, am graduating next semester and knows how to code too! Rare to see someone in similar situation on HN! Send me an email (see my profile) maybe we'll have more to talk about. :)

rdl3• 14 years ago

Do you have any tips for recruiting Australians?

excuse-me5• 14 years ago

Ample supplies of beer, barbies and sheep in the office?

itcmcgrath2• 14 years ago

I was recruited from the companies own conference they held in Australia. 'Cletus' was recruited from his StackOverflow iirc.

General rules: Be friendly, polite and sell the positives of being state-side (larger tech community, more user groups, conferences, etc)

praxxis4• 14 years ago

The tech community in Australia, while close knit and growing, has nothing on San Francisco (but honestly, where in the world does?). There is also the lure of other big, well known cities, particularly New York. Australians love to travel, and coming to the US is pretty expensive, so perhaps pitch it as a way of being close to north and south America?

That's why I'm here. I don't plan on returning to Melbourne until I've lived in San Francisco and New York either. It's a hell of an opportunity once you're over here.

astrec3• 14 years ago

The E-3 is a pretty good deal; indefinitely renewable, spouse can work etc. It's the visa I'd have if I wasn't married to a US citizen.

potatolicious3• 14 years ago

Not Australian so don't know much about the E-3, but it seems Canadians have a similar visa (TN-1) - indefinitely renewable also.

The trick is that it's a non-resident-intent visa, which is to say, while it's indefinitely renewable on paper, at some point USCIS is going to point out that you've been here for an awfully long time and you risk the renewal not going through.

Not sure if the same applies to E-3.

feralmoan2• 14 years ago

The biggest problem with an E3 is that it's only 2 years and when you get on the ground in the US its virtually impossible to get a credit card from major banks, and few insurers (health and assets) will touch you. On my second renewal, still no credit, ho hum, it certainly disincentivizes spending any money here or considering any kind of future beyond professional and material. Maybe that's the point tho, go figure. I would certainly like to not send every cent of savings offshore, however.

dalore• 14 years ago

I might be potentially getting this one soon too (fingers crossed). One thing though it's a non residency visa, as in you can never use it on the path to become a resident.

jellicle• 14 years ago

Luckily there's no unemployment problem in the U.S., because if there was, the H1B program would just be a way for companies to hire employees at well below market wages, further depressing the U.S. economy.

http://www.google.ca/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&#...

wavephorm• 14 years ago

You should also link to data showing how H1B workers are paid less than Americans, this one says on average $13,000 per year less:

http://www.cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages

enraged_camel2• 14 years ago

Wage discrimination based on visa status is illegal, though. Before a company petitions for an H1-B on behalf of a foreign worker, they first have to apply for a labor certification showing that the worker's wage is close to the mean wage for that job title in that region.

What is most likely happening is that once the foreign workers get their H1-B visas, they are denied raises and bonuses. And since their staying in the US is contingent upon their employment, they don't have much negotiating power.

sundae79• 14 years ago

Did it take into account lawyer fees paid for sponsoring that visa?

Symmetry• 14 years ago

These aren't liberal arts majors here. The recession doubled unemployment among programmers and electrical engineers, but that means that they're up to 2.4% and 1.6% now. The US demand for STEM majors has been growing steadily, but the number of people graduating in STEM majors has been decreasing steadily over the last decade.

dsolomon4• 14 years ago

Cry me a river. Pay decent wages.

tosseraccount4• 14 years ago

Degree is not necessary in tech business. Ellison, Gates, Jobs all dropped out of college. The people that teach themselves and have a "go get 'em" attitude tend to do the best. Perhaps a little on the job training is all we need to compensate for the "steady decline".

rajdevar• 14 years ago

Lots of People don't know that applying for H1B Visa is not getting the work permit/Visa to enter the country. Tech Companies like Microsoft file the Petitions even if they don't really utilize/invite people in the current year. This is just to keep a pool of extra workers on stand-by. Out of the 65k ,how many will get approved by the USCIS and how many really qualify in the Visa interview ?. How many enter the US in the current year? Remember your visa is valid for 6 years so they can utilize it in the future.

ark15• 14 years ago

Slight correction - The visa is not valid for 6 years. The H1B visa that is granted to you at a US consulate abroad is usually valid for up to three years. (sometimes two) i.e. you have till that expiry date to enter the US.

Once in the US, you can extend your H1B status for up to 6 years (and more if you have a pending 'green card' process)

rll2• 14 years ago

And another type. Canadians with TN-1 status (and Mexicans with TN-2) will typically switch to an H-1B in order to apply for a greencard. I worked in the US for about 8 years on TN-1 status, and then switched to an H-1B for the 6 months it took to go through the accelerated greencard process.

The xenophobia also seems a little over the top on this issue. With the rather broken American education system, is it so unbelievable to people that there may actually be quite a few non-Americans that are simply better qualified for these jobs?

stdbrouw• 14 years ago

With "accelerated greencard process" do you simply mean the greencard process as it exists for people that are already employed in the US as opposed to the slower / more uncertain process for people that, for example, use the Diversity Lottery or that are employer-sponsored but not already in the US?

rll2• 14 years ago

I am not sure how it works actually. I know the Labor Certification part was skipped entirely and I was put in some higher priority queue. Whatever they did, it took just under 7 months from start to finish.

ubernostrum2• 14 years ago

I'm not sure that it's so much "xenophobia" as the fact that companies are pretty well-known to be abusing the H1-B process right now to avoid hiring qualified Americans. The advantages for employers are quite strong, not least because H1-B holders have far less mobility and are essentially at the mercy of the employer.

whacker• 14 years ago

If you are in demand, then mobility is really not an issue. I know a friend who switched jobs within 6 months of coming here.

untog3• 14 years ago

In the tech industry, mobility isn't as big an issue as people make out. I've successfully switched jobs on my H1B.

rorrr2• 14 years ago

There are not nearly enough qualified and affordable senior level programmers in the country. We tried to hire them. Most candidates, that are senior on paper, do suck, they can't solve even medium complexity problems.

Unless you have a crazy budget, you will spend a loooong time interviewing and going through one shitty candidate after another. We've interviewed close to 60 people, hired 3 (NYC). One of the 3 turned out to be a rat who delegated all the work to other developers, and had to be let go.

In cities like NYC or SF, you need a very high salary to attract true talent.

ktsmith2• 14 years ago

Individuals with an H-1B can transfer employers under the AC21 rules. Many people with an H-1B simply don't know it. There's a lot of information from AILA here: http://www.aila.org/Issues/Issue.aspx?docid=12647

donall• 14 years ago

I'd like to see a credible source for this. There are references to a handful of shady companies misbehaving, but I have yet to see hard facts or credible stats (I'm not saying they don't exist). On the other hand, I have seen a lot of xenophobic hysteria and comments from American "IT professionals" whom I certainly wouldn't want to work with.

In my own experience, my employer is struggling to find qualified people. We are a fast-growing startup in LA and simply cannot scale as fast as we would like (mail me if you want more info). There is no shortage of foreign applicants but, afaik, I am one of only two sponsored H1B employees.

maratd2• 14 years ago

> With the rather broken American education system

If the American education system is so broken, why do so many Canadians travel south to attend American colleges and universities? My wife certainly did, to get her law degree.

> is it so unbelievable to people that there may actually be quite a few non-Americans that are simply better qualified for these jobs?

That isn't unbelievable at all. However, our immigration system, as broken as it is, serves a different purpose. The H-1B visa is meant to fill jobs that cannot be filled with domestic talent. Not jobs that can be filled with superior talent. A fine difference, but still a difference.

Personally, I'm for eliminating all this visa nonsense and allowing anybody who wants to come here to do so. Then again, nobody asked me.

pi18n2• 14 years ago

I also think the US education system is "broken" or close to it. Remember the recent polls saying 40% of Americans don't believe in evolution? Something is surely wrong with this picture.

It is not until college level that the US performs better than other countries. And then (for the majority of people) you would need a scholarship to be able to go.

K12 education has poor results and above that it is economically broken.

e: I don't mean this as an attack, I just want to say I can see where the grandparent is coming from.

mycodebreaks5• 14 years ago

In my team(at a company in SF bay area), We have tried to hire an entry level engineer and also a senior level engineer who can tackle software development. We've not been able to fill any position with qualified candidates.

Only reason is that the supply of jobs is abundant. Though there could be a huge number of american engineers, it simply doesn't match the demand at present. There is nothing terribly wrong in education system in the USA. The way you can solve this problem is by telling every freshman to major in Computer Science (However, many tech jobs don't require CS degree), which is not possible.

potatolicious3• 14 years ago

> " The way you can solve this problem is by telling every freshman to major in Computer Science"

I don't think that'd fix it - we're not really short on CS grads, we're short on CS grads that can write software. That's part of the xenophobia and hostility against H1B's - you have a lot of CS graduates who are just plain not very good programmers, who feel slighted that they're being passed over in favor of an international who's actually competent.

geebee6• 14 years ago

Would you be willing to post the salary you are offering, along with some information about what you consider to be a qualified candidate? Absolutely fine if you want to keep it general, I'm just curious about what people mean when they say they can't find a qualified candidate.

One big problem I have with the H1B visa is that it was created in response to an alleged "shortage". I'm very enthusiastic about creating a general skilled immigration under a points program (like Australia or Canada), but I'm far less enthusiastic about specific visa programs designed to remedy shortages in a particular and narrow segment of the economy. As you can probably tell, I'm one of those people who doesn't really believe that "shortages" of workers exist in a properly functioning market. I wouldn't rule it out completely, as we don't have a true free market and there are externalities to consider, but in general, I think most companies talking about shortages are really just having trouble hiring at the rate they want to pay.

Double or triple that salary, and you'll get your engineers. If that's too expensive, then maybe the talent you seek has just found higher value things to work on. One extremely regrettable aspect of the H1B is that it restricts mobility. Yes, changing jobs in related fields is possible and common, but an H1B holder can't stay on that visa to go to med or law school, start a new company, or respond rationally to all kinds of market signals they way free people in a free economy would be able to... and the ugly truth is that this is part of the appeal of this visa to some companies - a captive engineering workforce with all the market distortions that brings.

mycodebreaks5• 14 years ago

FYI, we could not hire anyone. Finally, we lost those open reqs because management decided so. Most smart engineer we interviewed, ended up having multiple offers from more cool companies.

it would have been 85k-95k for an entry level. In short, it was up to the standards in bay area for skills and experience.

durandal1• 14 years ago

As someone on H1B in Silicon Valley because of a rare, hard to find set of skills, I find it deeply insulting that every time this discussion comes up, it's always about money. But for people who just aren't sharp enoughs, I guess blaming something else than themselves is a convenient exit.

Stop complaining and sharpen up your skills folks, we're living in a global world with global competition on all levels. American companies can't afford to hire B talent just because they're "americans" (whatever that means, many americans I know are immigrants 1-4 generations back).

eitally• 14 years ago

Meh. I have an H1B who makes about 25% more than the rest of his team in the same office because the prevailing wage is higher than my company's standard wage. It cuts both ways, depending where you are and what industry you're in.

optymizer• 14 years ago

My H1B expires in 2013 (first 3 years). Does anyone know if this affects my ability to renew my H1B for another 3 years?

refurb• 14 years ago

As far as I know, it doesn't. Extension of an H1-B is not subject to the annual caps.

untog3• 14 years ago

No. Once you have an H1B, you're good. You can extend it, and apply for a green card and have it be valid beyond six years while you wait for your response.

mavelikara2• 14 years ago

No, it doesn't; the cap applies only to new H-1Bs. You can extend your H-1B for one more term of 3 years. If you apply for a GC in those 3 years (if you haven't already) and reach a certain stage of the processing, you can get extensions past the 6 years. If you do not apply for a GC, you will have to leave the country after 6 years.

tsycho• 14 years ago

It doesn't. For the 3-year extension, that is.

After your 6 years of H1B are over, and if you decide to leave the country for 1 year, and then reapply, then you will have to go through the quota again. Unless laws change by then, of course.

dsolomon4• 14 years ago

So what if the supply is exhausted. It's a synthetic shortfall driven by a smoke and mirrors view presented by companies that don't want to pay decent wages.

There's no shortage of quality tech talent, never has been. Now go show me a quality company.

dimecyborg• 14 years ago

funny comment in page "Maybe the visa numbers are stored in an unsigned short and can't go above 65535 anyway"

TheMagicHorsey• 14 years ago

I hope Congress realizes that restricting the immigration of highly qualified tech workers has unintended consequences.

If I can't hire good programmers in America I'll be tempted to open an office in India. Once I open an office in India, I have even less of an incentive to hire people in America. With less employees in America, my company is spending less on services in America. My employees are buying less things. The people I didn't hire in America don't need houses in America. Real estate prices suffer.

Silicon Valley is an amazing place. Immigration restrictions are unnecessary friction. They are protectionism for college graduates who should be able to compete on their own (if they can't, wtf were they learning in college?). If you gunk up Silicon Valley you are basically priming the ground for the emergence of rivals. That seems unthinkable now, but only because we are all sitting in Silicon Valley and we aren't watching what is happening abroad.

Programmers can grow up anywhere. They can learn anywhere and with AWS, App Engine, etc. they can deploy their services cheaply from anywhere. Soon kids won't need VCs to launch companies. The proximity to Silicon Valley for funding's sake will be irrelevant. It'll be the tech community that will be the draw. If the best people aren't in Silicon Valley because immigration rules stopped them at the border, then there will be competing communities in other nations. Where living costs might be cheaper. Where the weather might be better. Where the abundance of beautiful women (and men) might be higher.

What happens to Silicon Valley real estate when tech work moves to other locales?

cjensen• 14 years ago

Good. H1Bs are abused by employers who refuse to pay the prevailing wage and lie to the government that they "can't find anyone at the prevailing wage."

The IEEE had it right when H1Bs were first expanded: don't give H1Bs at all. Instead, give greencards so that if the wages are below market the employee can immediately jump to a company paying the actual prevailing wage.

ylem2• 14 years ago

Anyone here working on an O-1?

ylem2• 14 years ago

I have a roommate who just missed the deadline and is trying to figure out what her options are (background is in image processing/medical imaging)--she had an offer, but the process is rather long going from J-1 to H1...

2013 H1B Visa Supply Nearly Exhausted

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