I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

http://jzhwu.blogspot.com/2012/05/im-former-miso-engineer-and-founders.html

by rremoncake • 14 years ago

488 370 14 years ago

jzhwu.blogspot.com

DanBlake2• 14 years ago

First off, Screw those guys. Anyone who holds back money like that is someone you dont want to work for anyways.

Employees make mistakes and to punish them for it is insane. If you were purposely trying to screw things up and were fired for that, of course thats a different story- but it sounds like you were just trying to do your job and made a mistake, it happens. Also, seeing as you were supposed to have been paid the bonus while you were there, it makes it twice as awkward.

This should be a lesson to other founders- Treat people good and they will speak highly of you and may stay with you forever, to your next startup or company. Dont and they will do the opposite. That alone is worth more than the 10k you save.

Penny wise but pound foolish, as the saying goes.

rhizome12• 14 years ago

They also don't have any systems people who know to run backups.

rremoncake8• 14 years ago

To my coworkers defense the service was very new and we had plans to put in a backup system. Bad timing I guess.

rhizome12• 14 years ago

Something similar has happened to me twice (different scenarios), and the only commiseration I can offer is that they are life's learning experiences. Now you know a little more to get everything mentioned down on paper before you sign. I find it hard to believe that the referral bonus wasn't mentioned in an email or other notification-level policy statement, but aside from that you're probably just going to have to eat it.

They certainly did weasel out of it, though. Obviously they were looking for ways not to pay it rather than to avoid bad blood. That's fine, karma, they stepped on you on the way up the ladder, etc. Not a lot you can do about it, probably (but I'll be watching the thread ;).

veyron3• 14 years ago

FTA: "I was entitled to a $10k referral bonus offered by the CEO through internal emails." It was mentioned in an email.

rhizome12• 14 years ago

Yeah, just saw that :/

One of my life lessons was that I didn't save email from one of the scenarios, email in which the CEO had asked me how old I was.

veyron3• 14 years ago

"I was entitled to a $10k referral bonus offered by the CEO through internal emails."

Can you produce this email? (IANAL)If so you may actually have legal grounds for taking action against Miso ...

justjimmy3• 14 years ago

IANAL - I am not a lawyer.

Just incase there are others like me wondering what the heck that acronym stood for…

debacle2• 14 years ago

On the Internet, IANAL is I am not a lawyer.

On a bumper sticker, it means something completely different...

Produce2• 14 years ago

And there I was thinking that IANAL was a sexual preference.

dsl• 14 years ago

Email is the property of his employer, the courts would not expect him to be able to produce it. His lawyer could however ask the court to obtain the email on his behalf, and the company would be compeled to provide it.

stephencanon2• 14 years ago

The correct response here isn't to air your grievances in public, it's to talk to a lawyer.

jeremymcanally• 14 years ago

For $10,000? Lawyers aren't cheap and, honestly, typically aren't worth it for amounts under $25k, especially if the other side can lawyer up faster and better than you can. Take it to small claims and get as much as you can.

stephencanon2• 14 years ago

You can certainly talk to a lawyer for much less than $10k. The lawyer will either (a) tell you to forget about it (b) tell you that it's not worth using a lawyer, but that you might be able to pursue it in small claims court or (c) send a letter, which is probably all this would take, if he has any standing at all.

debacle2• 14 years ago

If the other side lawyers up faster and better they're also paying more, and with a $100 letter it might be easy to convince them that lawyers typically aren't worth it for amounts under $25k.

tomp• 14 years ago

Depends on what his motives are...

Also, it's 10k. For that kind of money, it's much cheaper to go public than to go legal.

kreek• 14 years ago

I agree, yes public shaming is free but he also just told the world he blew up a production database. That said I'll paraphrase Tom Watson when an employee of his made a $100,000 mistake "Are you kidding? We just spent $100,000 on your training".

mhurron• 14 years ago

And again, what does that (blowing up the database) have to do with a referral bonus?

FireBeyond2• 14 years ago

Docking wages for employee mistakes unless (and perhaps even if) wilfully negligent is /highly illegal/ in every state in the US, and will have the Labor Board all over your company and slapping you hard with fines and punishment.

veemjeem10• 14 years ago

He also told the world that Miso doesn't have great engineering practices. Deleting a few thousand rows is easy if you forget a "from" clause in your sql statement. Would you consider working at Miso if you knew about their poor moral standards and bad engineering practices?

I feel like more people should be publicly shaming companies so that companies realize they can't pull shit without consequences. I bet you there's a whole list of companies that fire people right before they're eligible for pension benefits, and there's little employees can do.

rremoncake8• 14 years ago

I want to emphasize that I don't really care for the money. It's the ethical implications of their decisions that I want to highlight.

rada2• 14 years ago

For what it's worth, your intentions were clear to anyone who's actually read your post. Good luck, you did the right thing.

jasontan2• 14 years ago

While this is unfortunate and it sounds like you deserve better (I'd like to hear the other side of the story first), I would discourage against taking this public. This is an issue between you and the founders, and no one else. "Warning" your former Miso coworkers should happen privately -- this post brings them the wrong kind of attention, but they did nothing to deserve it.

Future employers who read this post will think twice about hiring you -- frankly, this is rather unprofessional. Yes, the Miso founders might be in the wrong, but you can still take the high road.

rgrieselhuber2• 14 years ago

Agreed. Regardless of how you were wronged, threatening to take something like this public (instead of just doing so, or even better instead of talking to your lawyer first) can come back to bite you, in a number of ways.

ericdykstra• 14 years ago

However, by taking it public, there's a chance that Miso will try to fix the situation, and he will get the full $10,000 bonus, rather than paying a lawyer.

DanBlake2• 14 years ago

I dont agree. 99% of this time this type of stuff stays private because the employee is fearful of repercussions and as a result, new employees never get warned about the mess they are walking into. Thats why I upvoted this- It takes balls to air this publicly and thats the only thing you can do to stop shit behavior like this from happening and scare other companys into treating people right.

So long as companys think they can get away with treating you like shit, most of them will. Stuff like this stops that.

rgrieselhuber2• 14 years ago

I think it's worthwhile taking stuff like this public but threatening beforehand is a big no-no.

justjimmy3• 14 years ago

Employees are scared to burn bridges or take it public, because it will affect them when it comes to future job prospects. Unless your new potential employers really know your rep, HR will stay far away from you.

It's also up to the new employees to stay vigilant and find out as much as they can on their new employers – LinkedIn makes it so easy to track down ex employees of companies, just shoot them an email, introduce yourself (even easier with connections) and hopefully they can give on some valuable feedback (and hopefully they're honest!)

vijayr• 14 years ago

I wish companies thought beyond this "unprofessional" thing - is it not unprofessional for them to withhold the money that rightfully belongs to him (assuming the story is factually correct)? Sadly, so many times people don't come forward for fear of losing future opportunities, and bad employers take advantage of it.

ruggeri• 14 years ago

Hmm. I disagree. It's a small community built on trust. The cautionary tails I read on HN have changed the way I do business. I don't see anything unprofessional about going public. Think of it as a bug report :-)

If there's a code of silence about this, what levers do employees have? Are lawyers the only recourse? If anything, I think it's admirable to go public; the ecosystem is hurt without honest reporting. And the author pays the cost, of course, because future employers will have a look at this...

pudakai• 14 years ago

Tough call. I have to think would I hire somebody who did something like this - probably on a case by case basis.

In this case, it does seem (from his side of the story) that he was in the right & gave Miso plenty of time/warning.

All that being said, though, I would probably have to do the due diligence were I to know this about a candidate, that by itself is a negative regardless of the merits of the issue.

OTOH, an incident such as this might actually be a positive in a candidate where you are looking for someone who isn't a pushover.

So (IMO) it is hard to characterize it as objectively good or bad to a potential employer, at least this one, other than it is a flag that may need to be checked. It certainly is a good point of departure for getting a candidate to talk about himself.

In general, before going public w/something like this, one always has to consider "Never argue with an idiot because the people watching may not be able to tell the difference".

AznHisoka• 14 years ago

I agree. It sounds like the OP wants some attention, even if he claims he's doing it for the public service. His ego is bruised, he just wants to recover from it.

rremoncake8• 14 years ago

Yes. I do want some attention. But really, I think anyone here can see that I have a lot more to lose here than to gain. If this was a matter of pride I'd leave it as a Facebook post for my friends and call it a day. To me, this is the right thing to do, not the smart thing. Unfortunately the two don't necessary come in pairs.

pbiggar4• 14 years ago

I'm in two minds about this. If I were hiring someone and came across something like this, I would certainly have questions.

On the one hand, he might do this to me. What if he's lying or twisting the truth in some way, or there's more to the story.

On the other hand, fair play for sticking up for his rights. I'd like that mindset on my team.

I think it would come down to the interview, and how he came across. We once interviewed a guy who came across like an asshole online. We asked him about it in the interview, and he did a poor job of defending himself. I think the same approach would work here.

veemjeem10• 14 years ago

Well in this case, it looks like the employee was in the right. Just a few minutes ago, the founder (Somrat) admitted his mistake and paid Joshua the full $10k.

Later on when future employers see this, they'll realize that the employee has proper morals, and is a "do-er". I think most employees would suck it up if they lost out on 10k, but this person stuck it out and rode the storm.

Would you hire a passive employee, or a passionate one? Sometimes passion will cause people to do things that may backfire, but at least they gave it a shot. Passive employees wouldn't even bother with the 10k loss.

TheSmoke• 14 years ago

future employers who would want to screw him will think twice about hiring him.

mrbill• 14 years ago

Taking it public like this comes across as really petty and childish.

buf• 14 years ago

Seems to me like he's bringing this unethical decision to attention so that employers and employees know that it's not okay. I disagree with you. It's not petty, and certainly not childish.

slantyyz9• 14 years ago

> It's not petty, and certainly not childish.

Maybe not, but it's definitely the action of someone lacking experience. Anyone who has been around the block knows that companies can be very petty. Just because a work environment is 'friendly' and 'family-like' doesn't mean you can count on that kind of behaviour when you exit. Companies turn petty very quickly. Very quickly.

An experienced person would have made sure all the money he/she had coming was collected before even handing in the resignation letter. Once you've signalled that you are leaving, things can go south very fast.

I just look at this whole situation and what the OP did and think "what a rookie".

idm• 14 years ago

It's always better to say positive things in public than to post something like this. However, it also sounds petty and childish on Miso's behalf. They are the ones who hired the author, and they're the ones who set the stage for what constitutes appropriate behaviour, so the whole episode just looks ... bad.

Worse for Miso, though.

rhizome12• 14 years ago

It serves to inform potential employees of what they should pay attention to when negotiating with this company. Is it that it puts some tiny bit of negotiating power into the hands of potential employees that makes it distasteful for you?

tjic2• 14 years ago

> Taking it public like this comes across as really petty and childish.

I'm sure that everyone who would screw an engineer out of $10k agrees with this.

jes51992• 14 years ago

> During my last 2 weeks at Miso I accidentally blew away one of the production DBs for a service that was launched 2 weeks prior. No, we didn't have a backup.

Step 1) Make bad engineering decisions that make accidents like this possible

Step 2) Blame employees who knock over your fragile infrastructure

Great strategy, Miso!

cookiecaper• 14 years ago

This is a good illustration of the integrity of the company's founders. You should feel lucky to have gotten out. Hopefully your referral is planning on leaving too.

ams6110• 14 years ago

File under: Live and learn.

$10K is an amount that sounds like a lot to many folks but it's nothing you can ever recover. If you engage a lawyer it'll all go to his fees even if you "win." Move on.

ryanpetrich• 14 years ago

One could file in small claims court, if $10k is within the limit.

scott_w2• 14 years ago

Even if it's not, you just ask for the limit of the small claims court. $5k is still better than a kick at the table leg, and it's probably more than you'd get were you to hire a lawyer and sue for the full amount.

skurry• 14 years ago

The limit is $7.5k in California, but you can voluntarily reduce your claim to meet this threshold.

ghshephard2• 14 years ago

This part sounds dubious: "For example, we don't pay people outside of Miso when they refer us candidates that we hire."

Any recruiter worth their salt is getting a minimum of 15% on first years salary right now, and many are getting 20%. On a typical $150K Salary that would be $30K if the same candidate comes through a recruiter.

Perhaps it's just the case that Miso doesn't use external recruiters, and so the statement is accurate - but to suggest that bonuses are paid for good referrals as part of "Team Building" and not to get the lead on great talent would not be consistent with current market conditions.

eli2• 14 years ago

I would think very few startups use recruiters -- who has that much extra cash laying around?

objclxt• 14 years ago

I know lots of startups that use recruiters, including some YC-backed ones. Recruiting can take a lot of time, particularly if you're expanding rapidly. If you're the CTO it may not necessarily be the best use of your time to look through hundreds (and yes, you'll get hundreds) of CVs from a post on StackOverflow or HackerNews...

Of course, there are some that don't, but it's certainly not unusual for startups to use recruiters.

ghshephard2• 14 years ago

I've worked at three startups in the valley since 1999, and all three used recruiters. Typically they have 1-3 internal recruiters, and do try to avoid external staffing agencies, but, in tight employment conditions (right now) - hiring managers tend to working with staffing agencies to get some acceleration in hiring. One of the tasks of HR, in fact, is in the growth phase from 30 to 300 employees, is to run interference and keep costs from external staffing agencies down and use the internal recruiters as much as possible.

nandemo• 14 years ago

Hackruiter especializes in startups:

http://hackruiter.com

I also know of a recruiting agency in Japan that specializes in startups. Some companies have the too-many-resumes problem, but many startups have the converse problem. If nobody knows about you then you'll have a hard time finding qualified people.

jtchang• 14 years ago

Thank you for posting this. As a community of entrepreneurs and hackers it helps all of us know what happens behind the scenes. Some people may view it as airing their dirty laundry but I see it as a way to keep people honest.

The fact that you dropped the production database sucks. However you stayed around and fixed it. I can't really say anything more. My bet is we all handle lots of sensitive data around here. Our worst nightmare is to drop that data by accident. Stuff happens...fix it and move on.

I understand we are a litigious society but if your knee jerk reaction is to bring in lawyers something is wrong. My hope is this post will make it around to Somrat and Tim (I've never met either of them) and you two will resolve it amicably. Maybe I am delusional but good character still counts for something.

raylu• 14 years ago

Based on the post, it doesn't sound like he stuck around and fixed it.

rremoncake8• 14 years ago

To set the record straight I stuck around to fix it.

backspace6• 14 years ago

I disagree. Handling things professionally and keeping people honest are two different things.

There is no "service to the SV community" that this guy is doing by airing dirty laundry. If you've been wronged by your former company, handle it on your own. Shaming the company is not going to help you, the company, or anyone else. What you're effectively suggesting is that your "service" is to warn everyone to stay away from Miso.

Unfortunately, as a hiring manager, I'm going to stay away from you. While I wholeheartedly agree that you should have gotten your $10K referral bonus, I also believe it should have been while you were still an employee there. Once you leave, you're not entitled to anything more from the company.

mikeash18• 14 years ago

> Once you leave, you're not entitled to anything more from the company.

Can you explain how this works, exactly? How does quitting one's job wipe clean any debt from the company to the now-former employee? Can they refuse to send him his last paycheck too?

cconroy• 14 years ago

I argue that if he didn't do it -- it would be a dis-service to the community. I look at it like if it were simple assault involving you and an assailant. Since you were not really injured you decide not to press charges against them.

Let's say the assailant does this again in the future -- hurting somebody marginally. And they do press charges.

To the court this looks like a first offense and they let the assailant off gently.

Now suppose the assailant attacks again and this time causes significant injuries.

Had you originally reported your attack, then it is reasonable that the court would see a second minor attack more seriously and could bring more severe charges, deterring the assailant from subsequent assaults and improving the not only the assailant's life, but also the community (as a whole).

This is a specific instance of the more data a deciding entity has, the better chances their making the right choice.

ryguytilidie3• 14 years ago

Wow this is a super horrible post.

rb2k_3• 14 years ago

Honestly, the answers that the Miso founders gave seemed very professional and I think am a bit on their side in this one.

If OP had asked for the bonus while still being at Miso, it seems like he would simply have gotten it. Seeing as a non-contractual bonus is an investment in the employee that the company does in addition to the usual compensation, and seeing as OP quit on his own and doesn't have a compensation anymore, I can see that this would seem like a strange investment.

These informal bonuses shouldn't be seen as something you're entitled to, but rather as a nice extra that might disappear any second. If you really want something, it should be in the contract. If it isn't in the contract, you apparently can also live without it.

edit: Oh, downvotes. I really should stop posting my opinion if it might be controversial.

chasing5• 14 years ago

That's not really how it works. If it's in an e-mail, it's a contract.

Me: "Hey, if you do X I'll give you $10k."

You: [Does X.] "Can I have my $10k?"

Me: "Nah, the moment's passed. I'm not really feeling it anymore."

Nope. That's sleazy behavior.

rb2k_3• 14 years ago

As long as the email isn't as fully formulated as an actual contract I usually tend to see them more as a declaration of an intent that isn't 100% fixed yet and is missing some of the details. (such as: you won't get it after you decided to quit and work somewhere else).

That's usually the nice thing about startups, you don't have to fill out gobs of paperwork and have hours of meetings to get these small perks figured out, it's more of a "good will" thing imho.

But I guess I just have a different opinion when it comes to things that don't have 2 signatures at the bottom of them.

ditojim2• 14 years ago

the email could have said 10k for _current_ employees or something to that effect. i am also leaning towards siding with the founders here, not knowing all the facts. how much time and productivity did it cost the company when this employee lost the data? more or less than 10k? either side of it, does it really make sense to hand someone a 10k bonus after they made a major mistake and then quit shortly after?

jxi2• 14 years ago

The engineer communicated very professionally too. Just because you don't HAVE to not be an asshole, doesn't mean you SHOULD be an asshole. I agree with the engineer here since really this is something they promised at least informally and not delivering on it out of spite is just douchey.

rb2k_3• 14 years ago

His blogpost was quite questionable imho. Things like these really read as very professional, at least to me:

- "Impeccable logic."

- ' At this point. You might as well just tell me "fuck you. you didn't sign a contract. boohoo." '

- ' I was starting to feel like they were determined to screw me.'

- 'No. I'm not proud of threatening, but I was pissed.'

- ' The rest of this chain of emails consists of me double checking if he understood what I was saying, and him giving me some more BS.'

- 'This is unethical practice. Period.'

- 'Somrat. Tim. Was this worth the 10k?'

unreal372• 14 years ago

I tend to agree with @rb2k. There are payments you are entitled to by law (salary, vacation, personal expense reimbursement) and payments that companies do out of the goodness of their hearts (annual bonuses, lieu days, extra days off, referral bonuses). Don't quit under bad circumstances and expect to get money you're not by law entitled to. Should have gotten the money first.

ajross6• 14 years ago

That's not how the law works. The company advertised and promised a bonus. The fact that it didn't become a signed contract doesn't make it non-binding. It was payment for a service which was rendered.

Obviously, yes: you should get the money before quitting. But Miso doesn't have a leg to stand on here unless they're hoping that pursuing the money isn't worth the poster's time (which might be a good bet, given that he didn't ask for the money originally).

TheCapn2• 14 years ago

You're only hitting half the points here.

1) Yes, a referral bonus is optional

2) It no longer becomes optional once you make the offer to your employees. At this point you have established intent; especially if it is provided in writing. You cannot take it back once the other party involved has upheld their end of the arrangement.

mikeash18• 14 years ago

If you are explicitly promised annual bonuses, lieu days, extra days off, or referral bonuses, and then they decide not to give them to you, then you most definitely are entitled to them.

Just about everything in your first category is not an entitlement unless it's explicitly stated up front. If I get no promise of vacation days, then come back and demand them, I have no real standing. I can request them, but I'm not entitled to them.

Likewise, everything in your second category is an entitlement if it's stated up front. If they say, "We're giving you a $X bonus this year to anyone who does Y" and then they don't, they are completely in the wrong.

veemjeem10• 14 years ago

It doesn't matter which category the payment falls into. If the amount was specified in an email from a stakeholder, with specific guidelines, it's cash due. When lawyers make a decision, they're not going to decide which bucket this amount is supposed to fall into.

refurb• 14 years ago

I'm not a lawyer, but wouldn't this fall under "promissory estoppel"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_estoppel

renata• 14 years ago

Not unless he took action depending on the $10k, which it certainly doesn't seem like he did since he forgot about it for a while.

mcantelon3• 14 years ago

> Seeing as a non-contractual bonus is an investment in the employee that the company does in addition to the usual compensation

A bonus isn't a gift or an investment: it's paid to compensate for going above and beyond the call of duty. In this case, he did so by delivering a referral. He should be paid, plain and simple.

ww5203• 14 years ago

A bonus is a contractual obligation, just like sales bonus salesperson get or revenue target bonus management get. In this case it's a payment for the recruitment service. It's not an informal bonus.

Technical recruiters typically got 1/4 of yearly salary as payment. $10K recruitment bonus is cheap.

dkokelley• 14 years ago

This is really an interesting case, IMO. Verbal, informal contracts are still contracts, although they are a pain to enforce. A standing policy of a $10k referral bonus might be construed as a contract between the employer and employee. At the 6-month point the employee fulfilled his end of the contract, and was owed the $10k.

What if the employee had come back two years later to say "hey, guys. Remember that $10k you owed me?" I'm no lawyer, but I believe that a judge would consider that a form of forfeiture. Where is that line drawn?

I agree the tone seems to favor the employer, but tone doesn't make them right.

adgar7• 14 years ago

> Josh, let me talk to Tim.

> After you lost our data and caused our entire company to scramble for 3 days, I am hesitant.

Extremely professional. They blew me away with that one.

jacquesm2• 14 years ago

Only 'a' has nothing to do with 'b'. Those things are independent.

Also, any company that allows a single person to 'lose their data and cause the entire company to scramble for 3 days' has some issues with separation of duties.

mquander• 14 years ago

That doesn't make sense. A "nice extra that might disappear any second?" That's worth as much as a hole in my pocket. If giving referral bonuses is company policy, nobody would imagine that it might "disappear" retroactively if the management didn't happen to feel like paying you that day.

Regardless of whether it's legal, it's totally unethical to behave that way.

lawrence2• 14 years ago

You may want to consider putting the $10K towards a good cause (if Miso eventually steps up), to show it was never about the money.

Thanks for sharing. Sounds like Miso may have made a business decision, and you are reminding them of the cost side of that equation.

rremoncake8• 14 years ago

Any money that comes to me a result of this post goes straight to charity. You guys have my word.

danilocampos2• 14 years ago

You are under absolutely no obligation to do or say this, but if that's where you want it to go, good for you. I would be equally supportive if you promised to buy a hot tub with the money. You earned that cash.

tomjen3• 14 years ago

That is your money, you earned them.

And there is nothing bad or evil about going to work for the money and expect others to hold up their end of the bargin.

It is what allows us to have the society we have today.

tjic2• 14 years ago

> You may want to consider putting the $10K towards a good cause (if Miso eventually steps up), to show it was never about the money.

Why wouldn't it be about the money?

Why is this guy under any obligation to give away money he EARNED by making a referral?

danilocampos2• 14 years ago

> You may want to consider putting the $10K towards a good cause (if Miso eventually steps up), to show it was never about the money.

Why in god's name shouldn't it be about the money? He delivered incredible value by finding the company some talent in a talent-scarce environment. $10k seems like a pittance – but definitely one he earned.

lawrence2• 14 years ago

Well, I think if it were about the money he would have lawyered up, and not gone public. My understanding of his post was that the decision to go public meant he cared most about warning others.

smsm423• 14 years ago

But it is about the money - and it should be. It sounds like the underlying premise is that to claim the money one is due is somehow unethical and should be beneath a truly moral person. Nothing is father from the truth. If one was promised some compensation for something, he is due that compensation, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with asking for this money and absolutely no obligation to show "it was never about the money" - the money is part of the deal and it should be about it as well as about any other thing. If one is hired to do work for pay, one does it for the money, it is about the money (maybe not only, but also) and always was. Otherwise it is volunteering - which many of us also do, but Miso is not a volunteer organisation, as far as I know. So asking them to pay their debts is completely fine even if it's 100% "about the money".

mikeash18• 14 years ago

Why wouldn't it be about the money? Getting paid for one's work is pretty freaking important. The sum in question is more than enough to actually care about.

mgkimsal2• 14 years ago

Ugh.

I had someone not pay me $9k, and have filed a lawsuit. We're closing in on 4 years now (aug 2008) and still no court date. Courts take time.

I wrestled with 'name and shame', and in some respect, wish I had named. I found out that this company/person had done this to others, and one of the guys 'named' him publicly on a blog. He got a threatening call, telling him to take it down and he'd get paid. Of course, he took it down and didn't get paid - that was < $1k from what I remember.

I hear this a lot - "don't go public with these sorts of things, you'll get a bad reputation, blah blah blah". I'm really torn. I get it, but... if more people started doing this - going public when BS like this is perpetrated - there'd be far less resistance to hiring/contracting with people who have air this sort of stuff.

I've been self-employed for 5 years, have contracted on dozens of projects, and have 2 instances where I got shafted out of money owed. If I was to publicize those, but also have, say 25 other projects under my belt with fine referrals, wouldn't that say more about the 2 shafters vs me? And again, if everyone was doing this, it would seem a lot more normal.

Yeah, if I publicly trashed every company I worked with, my 'trashing score' would be pretty high, and people would want to stay away from me. But really, I'd prefer people know that I publicly praise good clients and trash bad ones, and if they think they're going to be a bad client, to not bother reaching out. I'd rather there be a filter there which keeps crap clients away in the first place.

The thing is, we all have to start doing this at the same time. I do agree that legal proceedings are worthwhile in some cases, in many cases, people are getting shafted out of hundreds or thousands, and it's often not worth the time to 'go legal'. The habitual scumbags know this and take advantage of it, continually rolling through contractors. They know most of them will just leave and won't make a public fuss, because they want to be 'employable' and not be known as a 'troublemaker'. Someone who doesn't pay me for contractual work done is the troublemaker, but somehow that seems to get lost.

droithomme3• 14 years ago

Thanks for sharing your personal experience with this, I've also been through similar things.

On the "take it down and he'd get paid" issue, one has to be very careful. There have been a few news stories where this has happened, the ex-employee agrees, and then the company goes public with a "employee was attempting to extort $10,000 from us" angle, painting the employee they cheated as some sort of criminal. The spin is they try to make it seem like the bad report was false and the employee was extorting money to take it down as some kind of protection racket.

mgkimsal2• 14 years ago

Yeah that would suck, and I wouldn't have put it past that individual in question.

In my particular case, I had all my documentation in a row, but still didn't choose to 'go public', tho in retrospect I somewhat wish I had.

nostromo• 14 years ago

Taking this "public" seems like a lose-lose. Miso doesn't come off super awesome obviously, but as a disgruntled employee, you're not setting yourself up for success either.

For example, should some future employer decide to Google your name before making an offer, they're likely to come up with an old spat between you and your employer. Even if you're in the right, it will make them think twice about hiring you. This disagreement may follow you forever (Google doesn't forget) and cost much more than $10k.

A better tactic may be to try and leverage your relationship with your friend who is still employed there. If this quarrel is detrimental to his morale, they may be willing to come to an agreement.

altxwally• 14 years ago

Otherwise what you are saying is to be afraid of the status quo because they have many ways of monitoring your past so you should behave, isn't it? If your 'future employer' gets biased by this kind of stuff then it would make sense to reconsider applying for work there, and whether it is really worth it to keep on supporting such kinds of disciplinary systems. What he is claiming sounds reasonable, and there should be no lose-lose when facts are facts.

j_baker3• 14 years ago

I respect what you're saying, but it's a bit naive. First of all, how do you know that the facts that were mentioned were facts? Were you CC'ed on any of the emails? For all we know, the author made the conversation up.

Secondly, nobody really likes hiring someone who speaks negatively about a former employer. Especially when there's no way to verify whether what they are saying is true.

planetguy• 14 years ago

If your 'future employer' gets biased by this kind of stuff then it would make sense to reconsider applying for work there, and whether it is really worth it to keep on supporting such kinds of disciplinary systems

I would have second thoughts about hiring this guy, not just because he took his dispute with an earlier employer public, but also because he apparently blew up a production server and screwed everything up for several days.

Right now these are the exactly two things I know about this dude, and put together they don't give a strong first impression.

veemjeem10• 14 years ago

I disagree. Companies that do this need to outed. There are companies that do this all the time to "old" employees who are just about ready to receive their pension benefits. They'll fire said employee on dubious grounds to save 30 grand or so.

If more people did this so that it would become a more accepted practice, companies would be less likely to pull these kinds of stunts.

underwater3• 14 years ago

While publicly posting about this probably feels good, it reflects badly on you as well as Miso.

* The lack of backups is partly your fault. You were an engineer there after all.

* Nuking a production database can happen, but the default assumption is that you are sloppy.

* Based on the timeframes one could assume you were fired from Miso.

* You have no problem revealing confidential information about your former employer's infrastructure and operations.

* You publicly post private emails between you and your former employer.

ckdarby3• 14 years ago

* So you can tell me the exact backup times of everything at Facebook for your machine right? You're an engineer at Facebook therefore under your broad assumption you should be performing the exact same of your statement. If tomorrow everything was to fail at Facebook & there was no data recovery you're saying that everyone in the company should come blame you because well, hell, you're an engineer there after all...

The more reasonable point is that he's an engineer not a sysadmin or ops guy this isn't his responsibility directly & more so this falls on the CTO shoulders of failing to assign someone to this task.

* If they point directly to production this really isn't unheard of.

* Why are we making any assumptions if the guy is fired or not; This has nothing to do with the fact of the bonus not being paid out on time while he was an employee.

* You're going to argue that the company failing to perform backups is confidential information about infrastructure and operations especially after the company mentions it in an email after his employment :|?

* These are emails after his employment & the company is or should be well aware that these emails from that point on can publicly be posted because he's not bound by anything to keep them confidential any more. This is why most companies follow strict HR policies of no further communication & very strict emails to former employees.

Come on, I expect a bit more from an engineer working at Facebook other than broad assumptions & statements.

underwater3• 14 years ago

According to their site Miso have four engineers. At that scale there each and every engineer is responsibility for how things are run. If you want to only do what is assigned to you then you shouldn't be working at a startup. I've worked at small companies who'd punted on revision control and backups, and I made sure those things were put in place. When I haven't had the knowledge or access I've bought up the issue with those who did.

I wasn't trying to ad hominem the guy by suggesting he was fired. For all I know he may have got a better offer elsewhere. I was pointing out that in his attack on Miso he's made himself look bad. If a future potential employer reads this his comments are vague enough they could draw the conclusion I suggested. The same applies to publishing the emails. He may be within the law but to me it's a major red flag.

I shouldn't have to have a disclaimer; this is very obviously my personal opinion. I don't see how my employer is relevant to the discussion. Am I supposed to refrain from commenting at all in case someone tries to tie my professional life to my personal opinion?

rwhitman• 14 years ago

Yea the first assumption I made after reading this is that he was fired in relation to nuking the DB.

prawn• 14 years ago

I'm sure they know this and it's their choice to do so. Regardless, how much is relevant to the payment owed?

SeanDav2• 14 years ago

Notice that Miso is not actually denying that they pay the money: "However, we only pay bonuses to employees." They are being hard-nosed about paying someone that is not employed at the current time, even though he was eligible when he was employed.

Fail for Miso.

unreal372• 14 years ago

To be fair, most companies in North America would not pay any sort of optional bonus after an employee has quit or been fired.

If you quit Dec 31, and the company usually pays out annual bonuses on Jan 30, don't expect a check.

wvenable• 14 years ago

More to the point: Quit Dec 1st, don't expect a Christmas bonus.

moe2• 14 years ago

The bonus was due before he left the company.

Pretty clear cut for me. The conditions were met, they owe him $10k. Maybe not legally but certainly morally.

benhalllondon• 14 years ago

It wasn't an optional bonus thou, it was owed money as a referral fee

lotharbot• 14 years ago

My wife left BigCo in January one year. At the end of February she got a prorated annual bonus. Maybe you shouldn't expect it from every company, but there are some that do it exactly that way.

adgar7• 14 years ago

You didn't seem to understand the post. You have it backwards.

It's more like that you had a personal bonus scheduled for Dec 31, and your last day was the next Jan 30, and they never paid you.

jsnell• 14 years ago

I've received a bonus for similar circumstances as in this case six months after I left a job (for a patent application reaching a certain milestone, informally announced bonus scheme, no contract in place). I wasn't expecting to ever see that money, so it was a very pleasant surprise.

(The company was Google, which should qualify as an American company even though this happened in Europe. I can't imagine there being any particular Swiss legislation that would have affected this case.)

mikeash18• 14 years ago

If you were promised an annual bonus, and it was due before Dec 31, you had bet your ass you should expect a check. At that point they owe you money. It doesn't matter that you later quit. I can't fathom how people think it does. Can you explain it?

bking• 14 years ago

Miso should just pony up the $10k and move on.

1. They promised you would get the bonus at 6 months, and THEY did not deliver (their fault for not keeping their written agreement). -- They were in the red before you left. You are just collecting on their past dues.

2. They didn't have a backup before production and you happened to blow it up. You woked hard and recovered most of the data. (their fault for not having a backup) -- Kudos to you for fessing up that you screwed up, but everyone does that and it is their fault for not having a backup

3. You confronted them about their debt, and they tried to find "sneaky language" that sounds like a solid reason to not pay you for your service. (their fault for shady business)

Sounds to me like they are trying to kill two birds with one stone by using a made up on the spot loophole to save $10k and bury a mistake they made in not fulfilling their pledge.

justjimmy3• 14 years ago

I'd like to point out something:

I'm pretty sure the OP is smart enough to know this move could cost him dearly in the future. He's basically setting himself at the 'stake', next to Miso, with his post.

This is why we have to pay a bit more attention than just dismissing his claim and label him childish. Doesn't matter who's right/wrong, the OP felt this was an issue worth risking his rep for (just by posting, he's already a blip on HR's radar). The tech startup circle is pretty small, made smaller by internet and LinkedIn. Definitely a big decision to take something like this public.

I'm surprised at his move taking it public so quickly, and more surprised at Miso going back on their words and expect no repercussions/fallout.

rhizome12• 14 years ago

Even saying that it could cost him seems like empty threats from the peanut gallery. On what basis, that someone might not want to hire him because they plan to rip him off?

MartinCron4• 14 years ago

Someone might not want to hire him because they see his behavior as vindictive and immature. Not that I agree with that analysis, but there is a risk of that perception.

mparlane• 14 years ago

Dear _____,

While we found your CV to be the best of the bunch, and you are the most well suited applicant, we have decided to decline your request to work here at _____.

Upon discovering your blog, we found it in our best interests to not hire someone who does not like it when they are not paid.

All the best, Miso.

zem2• 14 years ago

as someone who has been in charge of tech hiring for a startup, this would definitely not be a red flag for me. as you say, it's not like we would be planning on ripping him off, and blacklisting him for what is after all nothing more than human disgruntlement over getting screwed would be petty and childish.

slantyyz9• 14 years ago

It has less to do with planning to rip off a prospective hire than determining whether the hire has a sense of discretion.

Do I think he's in the wrong with Miso, absolutely not. He has, on the surface at least, a legitimate grievance. He should have, however, handled this matter with a legal mechanism vs. a blog post.

When I hire, I have to look at the risk that a prospect is the type of person who will air his/her beefs in a blog post after he/she leaves the company. Which is why I spend time doing searches of everyone who makes my short list.

While I do think the OP has a legitimate beef, the outcome was predictable and preventable. If the OP was smart and had any work experience, he would have known to make any claims to any outstanding money before even signalling that he was going to leave. Companies, especially small ones, tend to be petty about dealing with former employees.

fleitz3• 14 years ago

Stop calling it a bonus, it isn't, it's payment for your services of recruitment. The offer came as part of a written agreement from an officer of the company in relation to the duties required by employees (adding the optional duty of recruitment) and their remuneration for performing said services (your payment for recruitment). Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.

Bonuses are when you receive additional pay for performing your required duties as an employee. eg. you were hired as a programmer, you've doing great work, here's an extra 10K.

Not only did they fail to pay your wages within X days of termination, an egregious violation of the labour code but now they are misrepresenting the employment agreement as not including written amendments made by officers of the company.

Furthermore this policy they speak of has altered the employment agreement with out consent from the employed, and failure to disclose the policy at the time the offer was made constitutes negligent misrepresentation of the contract. I'm sure if you had known that you would have only received payment while still an employee, the offer would not have induced you to perform said services for the company. Failure to inform employees of changes to the employment agreement is also likely a violation of labour law.

File with your local labour board for unpaid wages, dealing with this should cost them easily more than $10K. The last thing they want is bureaucrats around their business.

Then file in small claims court for lost wages and breach of contract.

Attach the directors of the corporation personally to the suit as directors are liable for unpaid wages. (This may not be true in your jurisdiction)

Find the statute that says that all unpaid wages must be paid within X days of quitting / termination, add damages.

Add up all your time spend dealing with the recovery of this money, as well as reporting this to the authorities, add costs.

Hopefully after this you've reached the max allowable for a small claims suit.

I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice.

kaiuhl• 14 years ago

For not being a lawyer, this is an awesome reply.

fleitz3• 14 years ago

I've probably missed a bunch of stuff, a real lawyer would have no problem getting that $10K with a letter. They fucked up big time by tying it to the db deletion.

fady• 14 years ago

i really liked this response. your last sentence about your legal advice is priceless ;) i did not know all these options were available either, so thanks!

arbales7• 14 years ago

It actually /is/ a bonus – because you're already employed, and salaried, there's no obligation for your employeer to pay you more for services rendered. I'm no lawyer either, but Google seems to think "Referral Bonus" is a common thing.

ww5203• 14 years ago

Following that logic, a sales guy get paid with the minimum wage should not be paid with his sales commission and bonus for his additional service in getting additional sales.

fleitz3• 14 years ago

Then they should stop creating an expectation of pay in relation to the referral and make it clear that the company pays these in capricious manner which will depend on how much the CEO likes you that day instead of relating it to the performance of your job.

If the CEO sent an email about new "Capricious and Arbitrary Referral Bonus" then I'd tend to agree with you that the OP should have expected to be treated in a capricious and arbitrary manner in regard to the payment of the bonus.

For example in my options contract with my last employer it stated that the options were part of an employee retention program and should not be construed as remuneration.

After reading those lines I knew the options were a ploy to retain employees and not to actually expect to make a cent from the options. Upon quitting and being offered to buy out my options I said "The options contract states that it's for retention and not remuneration, why would I buy something that you've warranted as worthless?"

It's no different than an employer offering a 'bonus' for hitting a certain date for code. If I quit day after delivery it should make no difference as to whether I'm paid.

andr3w321• 14 years ago

Sorry but you need to take responsibility for forgetting to ask for the bonus at the end of six months while you were still employed by Miso. If you had remembered in all likelihood you would have been paid in full and all would have been well.

As it is, you left the company on bad terms and decide to publicly shame them. You will have trouble getting future employment as a result. Your future earnings has just potentially decreased by substantially more than $10k. How would you feel if after someone fired you they blogged about all the mistakes you made on the job publicly referring to you by name? You just don't do this. It's bad for business.

creamyhorror5• 14 years ago

> How would you feel if after someone fired you they blogged about all the mistakes you made on the job publicly referring to you by name?

Totally not the same thing. If you make mistakes on the job you have not broken any contract. In this case, Miso (almost) broke a contract. That's why the public naming is justified. Releasing details of an employee's performance is not (unless there's an expectation that the company will do so).

Also, this guy has won a fair amount of approbation from many posters here and a few hirers. There will be certain employers who would be more willing to hire him because of his principled stance, even if there are more who are hesitant because they believe unethical practice should not be outed publicly. It's a fair risk to take if he thinks it'll filter out dodgy employers in future and is worth the benefit to the community.

We should be applauding this guy, not criticizing his choice.

thaumaturgy6• 14 years ago

It looks like I'm the only one here that's stunned by the chutzpah of asking for a referral bonus after accidentally nuking the production DB, and costing the company a lot of time and effort to recover it, while on your way out the door for a better opportunity.

Regardless of whether or not Miso is right to evade their promise of a bonus, I'm not so quick to heap sympathy upon rremoncake.

This certainly isn't the kind of dirty laundry that belongs on HN.

zasz2• 14 years ago

Aren't these separate incidents? Miso is benefiting from this employee referral, after all.

MartinCron4• 14 years ago

Exactly, coupling those incidents is, if not intellectually dishonest, at least intellectually sloppy.

davidu5• 14 years ago

"Because you are no longer employed by Miso, you are not eligible for this bonus."

I must say, I completely agree. This is how it works. Your referral bonus is a perk, and nothing more. You didn't claim it. They weren't on top of it. You both failed here. But then you quit. And you left without it. That sucks for you, but they owe you nothing.

adgar7• 14 years ago

When my girlfriend broke up with me, we had a lot of shared stuff in my apartment we had purchased together. I gave her back everything she wanted and more.

Why? I didn't owe her anything. We'd purchased things together, lived together, ownership was undefined, and hell, she left me. Oh wait - human decency. That's what it is.

I guess since HN is full of armchair CEOs, dismissing respectful business relationships is in vogue here.

davidu5• 14 years ago

Your analogy makes no sense.

pbiggar4• 14 years ago

> "Your referral bonus is a perk"

It seems your argument centers on this point, which is conjecture on your part, at best. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?

davidu5• 14 years ago

At my company, it's a perk. And I love paying it out. And my loyalty is to my employees. I would bleed for them. But it's not to my former employees. As I approach 100 employees, many who have been with me for 4+ years, I find my stance to be entirely in their favor.

pyoung3• 14 years ago

Bonuses can be considered either contractual or discretionary. If there was any mention or implication that the referral bonus was discretionary, then the company can withhold payment for any reason, such as poor employee performance or low revenue/profits.

At my company, all bonuses are considered discretionary. They plainly and clearly lay out the parameters of the bonus structure, but they also reserve the right to withhold the bonus for any reason. They rarely reign in on their promise as it significantly hurts morale. However it is well known that if you leave the company before a bonus is paid out, that you will not receive the money, regardless of whether or not you have already fulfilled the parameters for the bonus.

tptacek4• 14 years ago

Well, this is now the only thing I know about Miso.

Good call, Miso.

dpio• 14 years ago

Yeah seriously, haha.

wglb• 14 years ago

A better call: http://jzhwu.blogspot.com/2012/05/im-former-miso-engineer-an... Apparently they have decided to pay after all.

moocow01• 14 years ago

I applaud this.

I'm really tired of this one way street where employers get to be sleaze-balls behind the mask of a company name while an employee doing anything that skirts the line of not being upstanding is 'irresponsible.'

We need more of this IMHO in that there is way too much practicing of sleazy business techniques in SV if you ask me

Iwaan• 14 years ago

I was an intern at a Startup in Silicon Valley and experienced something very similar. I got screwed over an even higher amount. The CEO argued, that the reward does not apply to interns. I took him to court and won. Emails are legally binding just as any other expression of intent.

yoav2• 14 years ago

This is like deciding to leave a company and emailing them a month later to make sure their product roadmap is still the same.

The bonus was an incentive, which you clearly didn't care about because: a) you forgot about it, and b) you referred your friend who you would have referred anyway

Making it "public" now is just vindictive. If you forgetting about your own bonus for months, and then another month after leaving the company still leaves you eligible for said non-contractual bonus, then what _is_ the statute of limitations? Would you email them 10 years later and ask for the bonus?

If Steve Jobs promised you a company trip to Hawaii if you got the Macintosh shipped on time, and EVERYONE forgot and didn't care, or Steve took everyone out for sushi instead, would you email Apple inc. tomorrow and insist they send you to Hawaii??

lolcraft• 14 years ago

> If Steve Jobs promised you a company trip to Hawaii if you got the Macintosh shipped on time, and EVERYONE forgot and didn't care, or Steve took everyone out for sushi instead, would you email Apple inc. tomorrow and insist they send you to Hawaii??

Yes, I would. Why wouldn't I? I just don't get it. Shyness, peer pressure? Please explain. And, why that appeal to the majority? Screw the majority.

> The bonus was an incentive, which you clearly didn't care about because: a) you forgot about it

Yeah, well, would you not ask for one month's unpaid wages? Would you just say "oh, I guess I forgot to check the numbers this time, sucks to be me"? What if that happened to one of your friends or close family? If something I say can be interpreted as though I don't care about my wage, should I work for free? Asking doesn't count as caring?

> b) you referred your friend who you would have referred anyway

Everyone gets paid according to the contract, regardless of what they would've done otherwise. Or, fuck it, let's just not pay ethical surgeons shit. They would've operated on those dying people anyways, the suckers.

mikeash18• 14 years ago

My recollection is that the statute of limitations on debt is something like 7 years. Months is definitely not an appropriate amount of time for a debt to expire. If I stop paying my mortgage and the bank neglects to follow up for a few months, do I own my house free and clear? Of course not. If they let it go for years then, and only then, can it work out that way.

arbales7• 14 years ago

veemjeem10• 14 years ago

The bonus was a legally binding contract. As long as statute of limitations has not passed, then the company is obligated to compensate according to contract. I guess you could wait 10 years, but if the company is no longer around, you probably wouldn't be able to get that 10k anymore.

If a company forgot to pay you your last paycheck after you left the company, would it still be wrong to ask for that paycheck a year later? That "bonus" was part of the compensation package, and would be no different than a paycheck lost in the mail.

yoav2• 14 years ago

The guy made it sound like an off hand comment in an email. From what I read in his post it did not sound at all like a legally binding contract.

silentscope• 14 years ago

this same shit happened with me when I worked retail, but I didn't quit until they told me I would never get the money. I never quit and then went back to get it. If memory serves, the phrase is "take the money and run" not "run and then try to go back for the money." seriously dude, you forgot about 10k? who does that?

now that I'm reading more though, if they didn't stipulate "you have to be a current employee to redeem your bonus" from the get go, they probably should have and it was asking for trouble not to do so. if they're casually going to toss around 10k in informal emails it clearly didn't mean that much to them anyway. unless there's more to the story, ie an employee contract with a bonus clause in it. which there probably is because we've only read on side of this story.

miso has way more to lose here than one engineer, if I was miso, I would've met immediately with legal counsel and him and hammered out a solution, not fired emailed back n forth.

dumb moves all around.

dudeguy9992• 14 years ago

I appreciate you doing this and I hope my employees would do the same if I were to act unethically in any future startup. There's a million sociopathic megalomaniacal assholes in Silicon Valley and that won't change unless people fight back.

droithomme3• 14 years ago

Thanks for letting us know about this Jzhwu, you are doing a service to the community.

patio113• 14 years ago

First step after an employer says no to paying you money owed should ALWAYS be a letter on dead tree saying exactly what your email said, signed by your lawyer. You'll come out $9,700 ahead because folks understand that fobbing off lawyers has consequences.

Your lawyer would have printed out email #2 ("You nuked a DB. Screw you."), called it a pretext to deny you rightfully earned wages, and told the company to have their legal representative suit up because he'd be happy to take his chances with any judge in the state. (Edit to add: Technically, that is a couple of increasingly pointy $300-a-page letters later in the sequence, but the threat of it is implicit from the first time he signs his name with Esquire.) A check would shortly arrive in his mail.

ajross6• 14 years ago

The point about illegal retribution is really good. Notice how email #3 walked it right back and came up with an entirely different argument. They knew they screwed up.

patio113• 14 years ago

Yep. More to the point, when a letter from a lawyer comes in, they're going to ask their lawyer for his opinion, and he is going to say "#$()! Why did you send that!?! That drastically complicates things for me. Just pay the kid or we're going to run up quite the bill fighting him and may yet lose."

(If you don't understand why that email is radioactive, here is a joking-but-not-really exhaustive list of things US courts will find as being sufficient reason for denying employees earned wages: )

jroes• 14 years ago

This is great advice.

I just wanted to make the typical legal fees clear to keep things realistic. I'm not sure if it's the same with this type of case, but for personal injury claims, the typical lawyer contract entitles the attorney to 1/3 of the dollars won plus fees.

Of course, 2/3 of 10k is still > 0.

patio113• 14 years ago

Lawyers typically work personal injury on a contingency basis because they have a high percentage win ratio and because, all things being equal, the person injured is likely to be poor. There may well be lawyers who take employment law cases on a contingency basis, but there will also be ones who simply hire out their services in formal letterwriting on an hourly basis, broken down into six minute increments. That is, overwhelmingly, the most common billing arrangement in the profession. You might even find a lawyer willing to do that and defer the payment until after the check had been received, but I do not anticipate the legal bill here being a prohibitive amount of money for an American professional.

cncool• 14 years ago

"Of course, 2/3 of 10k is still > 0."

Depends on the language.

orthecreedence• 14 years ago

People generally think "well, if I take it to court, I'll never see the money anyway." They're right...but 98% of these cases never get in front of a judge. A few well-placed letters (with quotes from your emails) and an actual filing will generally get you most, if not all, of whatever you're asking for (if you're in the right).

Legal action is expensive for everyone, so most companies threatened with it will just send a check in the mail with a contract saying "don't sue us again." Any smart businessperson will check emotions at the door and do what's best for the company.

The exception to this is if someone at the company does take it personally and actually decides to fight it, in which case you then cut your losses and move on...but never roll over without at least getting your lawyer to write up a letter saying "fuck you, pay me."

I understand it's emotionally nerve racking to be involved in litigation, but as someone who has been involved in a few lawsuits, it's very worth it to your wallet and self-esteem if you don't just shrug your shoulders and say "gee, it's only $10K."

vacri• 14 years ago

Frankly, at this point it's beyond the money.

Any time you see this, you can be pretty much guaranteed that it's entirely about the money and nothing more. If you want to prove to yourself that it's about principle of exposing poor business ethics, then give some or all of the money to a total stranger (or a charity) when you get it. Not going to happen? Then you're not really in it for the principle.

Anonomoose• 14 years ago

If Somrat had not said:

  "After you lost our data and caused our entire 
  company to scramble for 3 days, I am hesitant",

everything might've been fine for Miso. It's too bad he never learned to keep his mouth shut.

adgar7• 14 years ago

That was what kept me reading the entire article.

Somrat started the conversation by making it personal.

cletus• 14 years ago

"Name and shame" is a thorny issue.

Opponents are right in the same way you shouldn't badmouth former employers in job interviewers. It's not fair but it makes you look worse. You just kind of have to suck it up and move on.

When companies screw you out of money, you should name and shame them (IMHO). Trust me, over the years I've probably lost out on all told $50,000 or more that people never paid. In some cases it was a clear breach of contract. I never pursued it through litigation and reading stories from those that have I'm kinda glad. Such a thing is a mental burden and a distraction. Your best bet really is to move on unless the amount is really huge (maybe even $50,000+ for a single claim).

All that being said, this scenario is not one the company should be ashamed of IMHO and were I Miso I wouldn't have said a damn thing about it.

He forgot to claim a referral bonus. They didn't pay it after he left the company. Technically, they are correct: referral bonuses are paid to employees. He is not an employee.

Sure they could've paid it to him and maybe they should've but I sympathize with their position.

No matter what anyone tells you--and this is important--when you get a bonus of any sort it is forward-looking even though it's for what you've done. If you've left the company or are leaving, you are no longer of value to them.

If he's made the claim and pushed back on it finally reneging, that would be a completely different story.

This is a textbook example of "nothing to gain" and "makes you look bad" rolled into one.

EDIT: to answer one point brought up by a commentor (chasing): yes, you are correct. This is not a bonus in the strictest sense.

It is not however automatic compensation like your salary is. You need to take action to claim it (by submitting the form or whatever to get the referral bonus). Miso admits he did not do that. He is no longer an employee and thus can't file forms an employee otherwise would.

I imagine if this were a case where he expensed something and failed to claim the expenses the employer would pay. From this you can (reasonably) view the two as similar. The difference (IMHO) is that if an employer doesn't pay outstanding expenses, you may continue to own or you have a pretty cut-and-dried case against them for breach of contract.

Failing to file a referral bonus form while you were an employee is really your fault.

I'm not saying the employer is completely in the right here but honestly I think they're more right than he is and certainly come out of this looking better than he does.

tptacek4• 14 years ago

I just don't understand the mentality behind looking for reasons not to pay out bonuses. I see it all the time. It baffles me. When people have credible claims to incentive compensation, just freaking pay them. Almost by definition, we're talking about sums of money with very little marginal impact on the company; those same sums often have unpredictably huge impacts on employees.

Forward-looking, employees-only, whatever: not paying is more costly than paying. It sure as heck is here, because this ended up being Miso's introduction to a huge swath of potential candidates down the line. What a debacle.

If you have legitimate concerns about abuse of bonus programs, the problem is with the structure of your bonus program, not with how you enforce payouts.

calinet6• 14 years ago

> Almost by definition, we're talking about sums of money with very little marginal impact on the company; those same sums often have unpredictably huge impacts on employees.

This should be the way every employer sees bonuses. The have huge potential negative and positive impacts, with most of the negative being mitigated by adhering to the rule, "don't be a dick." When in doubt, pay them anyway. The complex positive effects you can't ever fully predict will almost always outweigh the minor negative and predictable impact to your bottom line.

Same goes for not giving refunds to customers, and using the right-hand lane to attempt to pass on the highway. It might seem like the best thing to do at the time, but some unpredictable event out of left field will put you three miles back and cursing your short-sighted decisions before you can say "Oldsmobile."

chasing5• 14 years ago

It's not a bonus. It's payment for services rendered. They offered $10k for a service. He performed the service.

Say I take a cab home from the airport. The money I give the cabbie upon arrival isn't a bonus -- it's payment for services rendered. (The tip is the bonus.)

tptacek4• 14 years ago

You guys can both be right and it still doesn't matter. If you're going to offer bonuses or incentive comp of any sort, plan on paying them. You should be allergic to any reason for not paying short of "there is no credible claim to being owed this bonus".

It's definitely true that bonus programs are usually intended for existing employees. Concrete example: my last employer blew out their numbers the year I left the company; I wound up in a 6 month transitional role (and a few additional months of outside consulting) after a cordial mutual understanding that I was going to leave. The whole company got a massive bonus. I got a negligible bonus, even though I was a full-time employee, and even though the bonus accounted for multiple years where I was a full-time, fully performant employee with no stated intention to leave.

Am I mad? Nope! Most of the (unstated) point of the bonus was employee retention. I was unretainable. Paying me a giant bonus was irrational.

I think that's the same sentiment 'cletus is talking about, and to that extent, I'm totally with him.

But the answer to most disputes about bonuses should generally be "I'm sorry we let this escalate to a dispute, it's important to us that everyone knows we deal fairly with the team, and so we're paying you the bonus. We wish you the best."

temphn5• 14 years ago

This guy Joshua Z.H. Wu does not come out looking good in this blog post. He doesn't realize it, but he just lost a lot more than $10k in lifetime earnings too. Someone willing to nuke something that their friends/coworkers built in this fashion is just not someone you ever want to hire. You find this kind of crap on Google, and you just don't call him back or offer an interview.

After all employers are human too, and when you delete the production db, make everyone pick up your mess, quit, and then have the stones to ask for your long-forgotten referral bonus for current employees in a chipper tone when you are already at another company...yeah, he's kind of a douche.

I'm sure he can be legalistic about it, and I'm sure there are no end of lawyers out there willing to huff and puff about the evil employer but...douche.

ajross6• 14 years ago

I find the reactions here fascinating. There's a hugely bimodal distribution here between people who sympathize with the employee (I'm in that set: the guy's out ten thousand dollars, who cares about feelings or "employers being human" at that scale?) and the employer.

I'd guess the latter are mostly founders, or people lurking here in the hope of someday being founders. And that makes me sad that so many of you think it's morally acceptable to promise large bonuses to your employees that you intend to pay only if reminded about it.

mikeash18• 14 years ago

Asking for money you're owed never makes you a "douche". It doesn't take stones to ask for what you're owed just because you caused some problems. There is no link between the two! I'm astonished that anyone thinks there is. There's absolutely no leeway to say, "I don't like what you did recently, therefore I'm not going to pay you the money you're owed for something completely unrelated."

joncooper• 14 years ago

Integrity isn't about technical or legal validity. It's about having made an agreement with someone, and honoring it.

Finding a semantic or legal way to breach an agreement is wack. Extra-much so if due to interpersonal static.

I don't know the parties involved nor do I like the attempt to adjudicate the matter in the court of Internet public opinion, but I do understand why folks are reacting to the story.

pyoung3• 14 years ago

I would argue that it is the employee, and not the employer, that is searching for a semantic or legal way to breach an agreement. The agreement was that employees (not ex-employees) are eligible for referral bonuses. He failed to settle this issue during his time as an employee, and is now searching for a semantic or legal method to do so as an ex-employee.

mikeash18• 14 years ago

The company agreed to pay him a certain amount of money if he referred somebody who stayed for at least 6 months. He referred somebody who stayed for at least 6 months. The company thus owes him the money. His employment status with the company has nothing to do with it, unless that was stated as part of the deal up-front.

I'm pretty sure this would last about five seconds in front of a judge. Produce whatever documentation is available (an e-mail about it should be plenty) showing that they promised the money, and it's done.

It doesn't matter that he forgot to claim it. Unless he let it go for so long that the debt passes the statute of limitations (7 years or so?), it's still owed to him.

This is little different from spitefully withholding an employee's last paycheck, a practice which is wrong and highly illegal.

blantonl• 14 years ago

I wholehearted agree, but..

I'm pretty sure this would last about five seconds in front of a judge

This whole issue would probably cost 50k just to get in front of a judge.

tobtoh2• 14 years ago

> I'm pretty sure this would last about five seconds in front of a judge.

Would it? I think the judge will see it as 'refer somebody who stays for 6 months and submit a claim to get your bonus'. I doubt any documentation on the bonus would say that you get the money automatically credited - so any T&C on how to claim the bonus would legitimately be considered part of the agreement. Since the employee failed the last part of the condition, the company would win.

jacquesm2• 14 years ago

Splitting hairs over a commission when you make money on a deal is going to cost you a lot more than just paying out.

Next time that deal will go to a competitor that has no qualms about paying, even to non-employees.

This sends all the wrong signals.

EricDeb• 14 years ago

I would agree with you that "naming and shaming" at this point is not in his best interest, however there is no question his employer should pay him in an ideal world.

dudeguy9992• 14 years ago

>Failing to file a referral bonus form while you were an employee is really your fault.

Congratulations, you're an asshole that I never want to work with.

wpietri7• 14 years ago

Amen to that. Part of the job of a manager is to look out for the people doing the actual work. Taking ten large from a trusting employee is bad. Blaming the employee for leaving the cover sheet off his TPS reports is worse.

ryguytilidie3• 14 years ago

"I'm not saying the employer is completely in the right here but honestly I think they're more right than he is and certainly come out of this looking better than he does."

This HAS to be the employer. I cannot imagine how someone can seriously think this. As a recruiter I have awarded bonuses to employees at 3 different companies and no one ever had to fill out a form, it was just a matter of if we paid him or not.

mcantelon3• 14 years ago

>It's not fair but it makes you look worse. You just kind of have to suck it up and move on.

My guess is this will negatively effect them more than it effects him. He's not badmouthing the company as a whole, he's badmouthing them reneging on a specific deal they made with him. They essentially earned $10K at the cost of advertising to devs that they are the kind of employer that will weasel out of a deals they make. Is saving that $10K worth that change to their reputation? Probably not.

rmc2• 14 years ago

referral bonuses are paid to employees. He is not an employee.

There is a big difference between "Referral bonuses are only due to employees" and "Referral bonuses are only paid to employees". At one point in time he was an employee and hence was due the bonus. The bonus was not paid to him at the time though.

He is still due the bonus.

dools• 14 years ago

This is a legal dispute and your bringing it public reflects terribly upon you.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_media

cgag• 14 years ago

I'm happy to see you name names. I've seen too many posts where people mention being wronged but then let the guilty parties of the hook. I can't imagine any company wouldn't hire you because of this is a company you'd want to work for .

You made a mistake with the db, but I don't see how that entitles them to essentially fine you 10k.

rdl2• 14 years ago

Actually, in California, an employer is penalized if late paying wages after termination of employment. Employee wages continue until they make the payment (this is a little less clear in this case, since it was a referral bonus). (IANAL of course, nor is this legal advice)

I still wouldn't have gone for the "nuclear option" of naming and shaming -- it makes your next employer more wary of hiring you (which probably costs you more than $10k in wages, even though anyone minimally competent can get a job in the current market in the Bay Area), and costs the employer way more than $10k (I doubt any HN readers will blindly trust Miso or the founders, at least for a while).

Just like the namesake, the "nuclear option" is negative sum. I prefer to stick to positive sum games when possible, or zero sum when unavoidable.

jusben1369• 14 years ago

Here's what surprises me: Miso - Hey, is $10K really worth having a disgruntled ex employee out on the streets bad mouthing us in the community (even if you assume he/she doesn't go public with a post you know the story makes it around to 50 people in his circle) Ex-Employee: Hey is flaming Miso for this really worth $10K to me when it could cost me a future opportunity to work someplace where the salary is 6 or 7 figures over a few years + equity upside?

Between the two of these sense usually prevails. However, this one appears to have made it past both barriers and out into the public.

dkrich• 14 years ago

There's a reason he's a CTO and not an attorney. As is probably been mentioned a million times, it sounds like you absolutely had a contract. It need not be written. If you have emails or some documentation implying a contract between you and Miso, that's every bit as good (in some cases better because it is specific to your case).

If it were me I'd get an attorney to take it up on my behalf. If you have a friend who is an attorney who can do it, even better. File a small claims suit. Make them show up or hire an attorney. Settle out of court for five or six grand or go to court and take your chances. Sounds to me like you have a very good case complete with emails to show consideration. Split the money with your friend (or pay the attorney). Move on satisfied that you made them pay up.

chrisacky• 14 years ago

Miso shares the same root as Miser.

How accurately suited their name relates after this.

Nuking the database isn't related at all to his entitlement to the referral bonus. Publicly naming is risky for future prospects as well. Hopefully, your integrity shines above the perceived lack of loyalty that future employers will see. I think you made the right call naming, but without legal intervention, you won't see a penny of that $10k.

dotBen• 14 years ago

Awareness of the incident aside, the comments on this thread just remind me of this well worn mantra:

Asking developers and entrepreneurs (as awesome as they might be) legal questions is about as useful as asking my lawyer engineering questions.

Name and shame, awesome, now get a lawyer.

teyc• 14 years ago

10k for a start up looking for a revenue model is a lot of money. It is effectively another month's runway.

If an offer has been made, and the person is still with the company, then it is not only a contract, but a business necessity.

Obviously, from an ethical perspective 10k promised is 10k owed, and regardless of how unhappy the CEO is with gaining one employee only to lose another one, we all recognize the value of keeping our word. The CEO should chalk it up to be more careful about these type of terms in the future.

aaronblohowiak• 14 years ago

>. It is effectively another month's runway.

With half an engineer, maybe

bitops• 14 years ago

Regardless of whether or not this person is in the right, and it seems like there's some controversy, the Miso founders emails could be seen as typical for someone who wants to keep their money. It may be that the OP is entitled to the money legally, but the reasons many people get away with stiffing others is that once you say "I'll sue" it takes a lot to really follow up on that. Sadly, I speak from personal experience.

menocchio• 14 years ago

The comments are really interesting on this story. They break out into a few types:

- this is a good/bad way to get your $10K

- this is a good/bad way to have a job in the future

- this guy who's out $10K is a douche/everyday hero

- this is really/really not a bonus, and that is relevant because [ ]

- bonuses are forward/backward looking and therefore [ ]

I also see some, but not enough, in my opinion, of the following:

keep your promises, whether they are tacit or formal, expensive or cheap, connected or not connected to some other issue, defensible or not defensible in court. Just keep your promises. Regardless of spin, regardless of how you feel emotionally, regardless of how busy or distracted you are. If you forget, or lag, and then are reminded, apologize and pay up. You can still say the guy is a douche if you want to, or scold him for his bad taste, or bad skills, or whatever. That's really a separate deal.

javajosh• 14 years ago

I feel like there should be a meta-HN app that allows people to categorize and collect HN discussions like this (I often find myself doing that myself). But your analysis is spot on, and it bothers me that so much of the conversation seems to miss the central point: the company promised something, and then broke the promise. This is wrong, and should not be encouraged in our society.

(Reminds me of the gay marriage debate, which too-often ignores the simple fact that these "defense of marriage laws" are exactly like Jim Crow. It doesn't matter if you like gays or not, or why you do/don't like them. You can't discriminate, period.)

jes51992• 14 years ago

This probably doesn't apply in this case, but if any of you ever have an employer fail to pay your paycheck, you probably can get it resolved without a lawyer. This happened to me once, and I filed a complaint with the Bureau of Labor in my state (Oregon, at the time), and they leaned on the company and got me my last paycheck in less than a month, no cost to me.

(On some level, though, I wish I felt like naming names, because that company is still in business, despite that one quarter where they suddenly stopped paying everyone. But don't worry - they're almost certainly nobody you've ever heard of or done business with)

lucian303• 14 years ago

Always collect your money before burning bridges if possible, especially in this industry.

drawkbox• 14 years ago

While a situation like this totally sucks the bridge was destroyed like The Bridge on the River Kwai on both sides. Maybe even nuked.

Never heard of Miso (other than the awesome soup) but this is heavily damaging to the brand (for developers). They really should have paid if the new employee was working out, not anything based on the employees performance. Isn't a referral based on getting a good additional asset? Without that referral would you be less a good developer, then pay the bonus.

For the OP, probably should have just moved on as destroying bridges is not a good idea, the world is smaller than we think.

salimmadjd• 14 years ago

Miso HR department should have automaically paid the $10k as soon as the criteria was met.

When you work your heart out for a company, you expect the company to look out for you. Loyalty is a two way street, at least this is how I used to manage my people and I would go above and beyound to protect them.

All said, the OP harmed himself as much as he harmed Miso. Although I side with OP on principle, his rash reaction would make me hesitate to ever hire him. It would have been better to have exhausted all other options, before trying to burn your old company.

arbales7• 14 years ago

Really disappointed by this post. As a long time friend of Miso and the awesome people there – the people responsible for several awesome open source projects (Padrino, RABL, to name a few) – it makes me really bummed someone would choose to bring an issue up in this way.

I've never heard of a former employee receiving a bonus – referral or otherwise. The idea of a referral bonus is rewarding someone for /growing/ the team, and if you leave before that term is up, or if you leave before you file for the bonus, it's ridiculous to ask for it later – especially when you've already deflated your good will with a company. Moreover, I've not heard of people receiving a referral bonus after forgetting to claim it. I've forgotten to claim one! But I'd never think its anyone else's fault but mine, and my company is backed by an enterprise with a lot of resources.

Hey, I dunno, maybe I'm too busy putting my heart in the work to focus on stuff like this. People like the `jzhwu` whine, foster negative energy, and distract our community from focusing on good work.

Or maybe I'm just secure – financially and mentally. I don't need to squeeze money from former employers or vent my discontent because I'm focused on what I'm doing now, and what I'll do next, and how I'm growing as a designer and a person. I hope this guy discovers a more mature mindset before he does more damage to his career.

Finally, I'm also disappointed by the many people who can't see this for what it is – I assume they're the same crowd that's taking to badmouthing "brogrammers."

jefe783• 14 years ago

You're an inspiring type. Certainly hope I never need to interview with the likes of you. The guy is owed money. he should be paid, regardless of your love affair with Miso.

arbales7• 14 years ago

He's really not owed anything. He neglected to collect his referral bonus it before leaving, bummer.

thesnider• 14 years ago

Why would you ever set this system up so that the employee would have to remember to claim the bonus unless you never really expect to pay it? Surely the company could very easily determine who is woed bonuses when, and automatically disburse them? Mine certainly does!

It's great for you that you don't care about $10,000 owed to you, but not everyone is in that position, and that doesn't make them worse people then you

arbales7• 14 years ago

Oh don't get me wrong, if someone actually owed me 10k, I'd totally care /and/ be aggressive about collecting, but that's not the case here.

Startups, especially small ones, need not waste time with HR infrastructure like this – they're building products. HR should be ad-hoc and people-driven. If that's a problem, there are numerous larger companies to work for that devote their time to things like that. It's not unreasonable to expect someone to ask/remind the company about their referral bonus – and if he cared that much about it, he'd have collected before he departed.

My point is – spilt milk. Move on, build other opportunities for yourself, and don't forget again :D

accin3• 14 years ago

>> The idea of a referral bonus is rewarding someone for /growing/ the team, and if you leave before that term is up, or if you leave before you file for the bonus, it's ridiculous to ask for it later – especially when you've already deflated your good will with a company

What is the "term" that you're referring to in "leaving before the term?" From the blog post, it seems like the author "grew" the team by successfully referring an employee who stayed for minimum of 6 months, which gives him the entitlement of the 10k bonus as per email discussions.

arbales7• 14 years ago

"or if you leave before you file for the bonus"

my point is asking for a bonus for growing the team /after/ you've left, thereby shrinking the team, is kinda silly.

peetahb• 14 years ago

There's nothing wrong with badmouthing brogrammers, true story.

arbales7• 14 years ago

Bummer you think that, bro. Bad mouthing anyone is something we should all work to grow out of.

mikeash18• 14 years ago

It's not "squeezing money." It's trying to collect what he's owed. There is nothing wrong with doing that, at all. I can't fathom why you would think that's a bad thing to do.

chasing5• 14 years ago

Did you read the article in question? Because, jeez. What the hell.

orangecat• 14 years ago

I've never heard of a former employee receiving a bonus – referral or otherwise.

Have you heard of former employees getting their final paychecks? That's all this is.

adamsilver• 14 years ago

What they did to you is the right thing. I can't imagine rewarding a stupid employee who wiped my data and left my company.

jefe783• 14 years ago

If your company is too stupid to have backups in place that's your own damn fault. The fact that he blew the data away is irrelevant. It can happen to anyone.

And you think screwing someone out of money they're contractually owed is ok? I'm sure you'll do well..

netrus• 14 years ago

I am shocked, not because things like this happen, but because a broad group of posters at HN seems to justify Miso's behavior, which was legally as wrong as morally (and strategically wrong as well).

I had never expected to see such reaction from so many HN characters. That's a long list of people I wish never to do business with.

drats• 14 years ago

I like how they are saying he shouldn't have said it in public but have their contact information or real names in their profile while stating they agree with breaking contracts and screwing employees.

suyash• 14 years ago

Anyways you have to pay around 35% tax on 10K, so think around 7.5k in hand and on top if there are any legal fees etc.

paulsutter2• 14 years ago

The author seems to feel powerless against an employer, and may not realize the choices he has. Disputes happen. What matters is to get a resolution, and there are a few ways to go about it. Lets compare:

1. Public shaming

2. Work with a lawyer

3. Litigation

I'm taking this purely from the author's perspective, how can he get a successful outcome?

Public shaming has some downsides for the author:

- Threatening to publicize may give you some leverage. But you lose all your leverage once you take action. Losing leverage isn't good in negotiation.

- The founders of Miso are now likely furious with him, and emotionally determined to prove themselves right and him wrong. He's just increased their conviction to the point where they may fight it with irrational determination.

- It's easy to get a detail wrong, especially on an emotional topic. If the author made some mischaracterizations (even accidentally) in his post, he could be opening himself up to litigation. Especially when you think about the bullet directly above.

My recommendation to anyone is to talk with a lawyer first. I noticed some of the responses here suggest that going to a lawyer is somehow underhanded. It is not. I'm not talking about a scum-sucking bottom-feeding accident lawyer. I'm talking about a business lawyer. Usually you can get a free consultation. If not, paying for an hour or two of his time is well worth it. Consider it a form of tuition to the school of hard knocks.

Often, a lawyer could give you some pointers to either help accelerate a successful negotiation of your own, or point out any weaknesses in your case that you may have overlooked. If the matter is complex, you could have the lawyer negotiate on your behalf. This could take the form of writing a single letter to the employer.

Once that letter is on file, the employer will need to disclose it as an outstanding dispute in their future disclosures for any financing round or sale of the company, unless they settle it. This is why the employer may actually have less power than the employee in negotiating a dispute. And why you should take the honorable route, with a lawyer to help you understand the law and take the right actions.

The best way to avoid litigation is to work with an attorney. Litigation is very unnecessary, expensive, time consuming, and a distraction. I've always been able to resolve any disagreements without the need for litigation.

Think of an attorney as a guide through dangerous territory. He's been through dozens or hundreds of similar situations. He's seen how to get resolution, and he's seen things that have worked out badly. And he knows how the law views the matter. The law is complicated.

Finally, I cant possibly have an opinion about whether the employer or employee are right or wrong in this case because I haven't heard the other side. And I suggest that the rest of you take a similar neutral position.

rhizome12• 14 years ago

emotionally determined to prove themselves right and him wrong. He's just increased their conviction to the point where they may fight it with irrational determination.

If Miso is anything but self-funded, it would reflect extremely poorly on Miso for their executives to act in the way you describe here. It's simply bad business to dig in your butthurt heels.

paulsutter2• 14 years ago

True, but I've seen it happen. More big business decisions are made on an emotional basis then you might expect.

I'm just trying to consider the matter from the pure perspective of how to get the best outcome.

btian• 14 years ago

Miso should certainly have paid him the bonus because at the point when the bonus was due, he was an employee. It doesn't matter that he did not claim the bonus (it's the company's obligation to pay him, and since it was not paid, it should now be paid with interest) or there was no written contract (email and/or verbal communications are contractually valid).

Having said that, I don't think it is correct to name and shame the company this way because it damages the reputation of the firm, and thus making it more difficult to claim the bonus. I'd have hired a lawyer and settle with the company (i.e., claim the bonus and legal expenses) if I were him.

ChristianMarks2• 14 years ago

I've been in situations like this and have involved lawyers to no avail. The reason why I did not complain about former deadbeat clients to the next one is that a manager that hears that I was taken advantage will say to himself, "If some other savvy businessman was able to get away with screwing this guy and I don't, I look like an idiot."

timo614• 14 years ago

Contact the CA department of labor and ask them how strong your case is. CA's department of labor will handle the process of arbitrating any unpaid wages and can likely tell you about labor law much better than most people here.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/HowToFileWageCLaim.htm "Unpaid wages, including commissions and bonuses." "A claim based on an oral agreement must be filed within two years from the date the claim arose."

Personally I think they lost their case as soon as their executive mentioned that the reason they would withhold payment was because of mistakes made on the job. By doing such they appear to acknowledge the debt and state their reasoning for not complying with payment is related to such reasons. Regardless of any future emails that kind of breaks CA labor code as far as I know. I'm not a lawyer though so what do I know.

9999• 14 years ago

Naming and shaming is not in this guy's immediate interests at all. It does not change the chances of him getting compensated, and future employers may view the act negatively (although this may act as a useful filter for rremoncake, the kind of people that wouldn't hire him because of this are probably not the kind of people he'd want to work for anyway).

The founders of Miso will now be perceived by many people (myself amongst them) as highly unethical and shortsighted individuals. Being either of those things makes them undesirable as employers/employees/coworkers.

I'm reminded of the altruistic primates that run shrieking through the forest to warn their clan of an approaching predator, at the risk of being eaten themselves... If rremoncake saved some hackers from putting in a few years with these guys only to be hosed after an acquisition, then I think he's done something pretty positive, and should be commended. Sorry if you get eaten.

tomrod• 14 years ago

I see this as costing the blogger more than the $10K, in the long run.

readymade• 14 years ago

I love it when insane discussions like this come up on HN because it gives you a great pool of people and companies to remind yourself never to work for, or with.

robomartin• 14 years ago

Lawyer-up. Get paid. Don't get screwed.

I say this as a founder many times over. An agreement is an agreement. I've had to do things like put salaries on credit cards and mortgage my house to make payroll during bad times. I don't appreciate business owners that behave as you described.

The data loss event you mentioned has no relevance here. Yes, you fucked-up. And you own that. Lesson learned. The $10K was not conditional to you being a perfect employee, it only required you to bring someone in that would stay for at least six months. That, you did.

quellhorst• 14 years ago

"Fuck you. Pay Me." comes to my mind after reading this. http://vimeo.com/22053820 [Video]

accin3• 14 years ago

This blog post brings up an interesting point. Is it normal for employees to have to 'claim' (certain types of) bonuses?

ChristianMarks2• 14 years ago

Expert witness in forensic computing evidence here.

Remember when the too-big-to-fail banks were bailed out to the tune of $700B USD and bank executives insisted they had to be paid their bonuses because their employers were contractually obligated to do so? A lot depends on who the payee is.

In this case, I imagine I would argue (in an affidavit) against the CTO who admitted that there was no backup in place. Also, there was an email suggesting that the verbal contract (now confirmed in writing thanks to the exchange of email!) would be honored except for a database mishap. That's an admission of liability. The emails do not state that the (potential) plaintiff was responsible for backups. They don't say, "you were responsible for backups and you did not implement any." They simply admit there weren't any, which I would count as a failure of management to implement backups.

A good labor lawyer could do a lot with this.

ssx• 14 years ago

Ironic part is that Miso I'm sure is loving the traffic this is generating.

unconed• 14 years ago

In this thread: a bunch of sociopathic hackernews commenters fall for the Just World fallacy.

ryguytilidie3• 14 years ago

I think the bigger issue here has to be how much one has to get screwed before they actually come out and tell their tale. I had a former boss and coworker who were sleeping together and to this day the backlash i got for reporting it internally absolutely blows my mind, I can't imagine if I had told people externally as well. While I was right and both people admitted it, it involved months of stress and lies before everyone realized i was right and they should stop being dicks to me. Of course, the two in question have never had to face an ounce of blame while the person who correctly pointed out they were breaking rules got punished badly.

Just remember that the revisionist history will always go on unless you're on the best of terms with the founders always. The fact that my old boss had been there longer than me simply made his he said more powerful than my he said. It is incredibly discouraging how sketchy this industry is becoming, and I hope more people speak out in situations like these before it is too late.

imroot• 14 years ago

I'm in a bit of a similar situation. My last company didn't have any form of corporate credit, so I purchased everything on my own card and submitted the expenses to be reimbursed.

Fast forward to November. I purchased over 8k worth of computers, phones, and software for new hires. I get my reimbursement check in Janurary. Most of their amazon stuff running was on my amazon account, and I ended up paying for their Microsoft assurance license costs out of my own pocket with the promise that I would be reimbursed.

I left in early April.

Guess who's still using his twilio API key for their SMS notifications? Guess who hasn't migrated their stuff off of his amazon key? Guess who hasn't paid him for his last expenses, and who held my last paycheck for an extra two weeks?

It's someone that is getting ready to get a first round of fifteen million valuation -- and I'm hopeful that when they fund, I start to see some of the money, but I'm not holding my breath...

Hell, I've sent them emails asking to have them remove their services from my accounts; even providing detailed instructions on how to do so. I am afraid of turning them off because I do not want to be accused of disrupting their services -- which would be a death blow to my career -- and emails sent to the CTO and VP of engineering go into the ether.

Bonus: the two attorneys I talked to wouldn't touch this with a ten foot pole.

brendoncrawford• 14 years ago

This public shaming was immature and unprofessional. The matter should have been resolved within the legal system.

I would not hire somebody who behaves this way.

eavc• 14 years ago

Do those that do the hiring communicate with each other about especially bad behavior by employees?

Then it is equitable that those who seek employment communicate with each other about especially bad behavior by employers.

I applaud your courage in posting this.

rdl2• 14 years ago

Somrat is actually a friend of mine (former coworker...), and I emailed him to point out the HN explosion over this, and ask if they'd consider paying the $10k.

Apparently he'd already done so, and commented on the blog:

http://jzhwu.blogspot.com/2012/05/im-former-miso-engineer-an...

Somrat NiyogiMay 10, 2012 9:37 PM I'm CEO of Miso. Let me start by saying, this was our mistake and we apologize. We reached out to Joshua Wu and we are paying his referral bonus.

Let me dig into this further. We have a policy in place where if a Miso employee refers a full-time hire to Miso, after the referred employee has worked at Miso for 6 full months, the referring Miso employee will receive a bonus. Pretty standard stuff. What we didn’t make clear is what the timing is and other requirements for receiving the referral bonus. We did not have a clear and complete policy and it was our responsibility to communicate fully with our employees. This is clearly our fault.

Our referral program is still in place and we will continue to encourage our team to refer the best candidates to Miso. Moving forward, we have established the following clear criteria to explain how employees will be eligible for the $10K referral bonus: - The employee must provide a referral for a full-time hire. - The referred employee must work at Miso for 6 full months after hire date (excluding any leaves of absence) - The referring employee must be employed at Miso and not have given notice to depart the company prior to the date of the bonus payment.

If the above has been met, the referring employee will be eligible to receive the referral bonus in the first full pay period following the 6-month anniversary of the referred employee.

We are human and we make mistakes. We’ve learned something from this.

xtiy• 14 years ago

As someone already said, file with the local labor board for unpaid wage, then take them to small claims court.

Very easy, I've done the small claims court before, piece of cake.

delinka• 14 years ago

What's with all the jerks trying to say the only enforceable contract is a written and signed contract? U.S. Courts uphold verbal contracts all the time. "He said, she said" is quite a bit more iffy without witnesses, but commitments and agreements are still legally valid commitments and agreements. Email conversations are just about as good as a printed and signed contract.

And the employee has to remind the employer to pay up? Let's see how far that goes when employees have to remind the employer every payday that the paychecks are due. Why don't you just institute some asinine rebate-style process for obtaining your referral fee? 1) Clip the UPC code from the new hire and have it notarized on its date of hire; notarizing on any other date will void your claim to the fee 2) Hold the notarized code until the new hire has been employed with the company for at least six months 3) Mail the notarized original code to an address seven hundred miles away using a handwritten envelope and first class postage only; computer printed envelopes and postage in excess of first class postage will void your claim to the fee 4) Pray that the new hire is still with the company at the moment the claim department decides to process your claim. Claims may take six to eight months for processing.

SeanDav2• 14 years ago

There is apparently a post now on his blog from the Miso CEO that they will pay.

rremoncake8• 14 years ago

UPDATE:

First of all. Thank you. I made this post with hopes that someone out there can learn something from this. Needless to say I got a lot more than what I was expecting. I'm humbled by the attention and support I've gotten from everyone. Strangers and friends alike. The 10k I'll be getting will be going to charity to celebrate the integrity, compassion and passion demonstrated by the community at large.

I want to especially thank the Hacker News community for helping this get the attention I believe it deserved. The discussions it generated in the comments section was fruitful for everyone. Again, thank you all. None of this would've been possible without your help.

I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

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