My experiment in phonelessness was a failure, and it also changed my life

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/feb/05/phone-screentime-detox-reflection

by thm • 2 years ago

213 274 2 years ago

"Do you want to be my girlfriend?" I ask Almond one day. "I already am. That's what this is"

Spot on. Sometimes that's all it takes, someone from the real world to remind you that you're OK, that _this_ is living, that it's good enough. After that the unreality at the inside of digital perdition starts to unravel and dissolve. The mind starts to wander back to that most highly addictive of all things, reality.

isometricid• 2 years ago

``` Thief of my life? No one gets to steal my life.

Unfortunately, I am now addicted to sugar.

```

ghaff2• 2 years ago

It seems there are some distinct modes of phone use that are pretty different:

- Social media/news/etc. scrolling

- Contact with friends you're meeting or otherwise being reachable

- Utility apps for parking, travel, GPS, etc.

- Camera

- Music/podcasts

Probably others.

ajmurmann• 2 years ago

The distinction between social media and communicating with friends is a interesting, but important one. I have some Signal groups that at times have huge bursts of activity and I haven't met everyone in them in person. Yet it's totally different from "social media" like Facebook. This seems obvious, but 2008 Facebook was closer to my Signal groups than current Facebook or Twitter. I want to say it's the news feed that made Facebook problematic, but maybe it's the volume and that there always is something new?

ghaff2• 2 years ago

I have Facebook and have a fair variety of people on it but it's mostly dip in/dip out/here are photos of my trip. Mostly use email/SMS/iMessage if it's arranging a get-together with a closer overall group.

With Facebook, I think it is partly the feed but it's also that I've accumulated a fair number of mostly professional colleagues and friends-of-friends over time. Some classmates I've stayed in various degrees of touch with.

lotsofpulp4• 2 years ago

The one I am loving in recent years is searching if an item is in stock at a store nearby and in many cases, seeing the location of the item in the store itself. Not to mention being able to compare prices and see reviews or other details.

csdvrx• 2 years ago

My quirk is being phoneless. I have an android phone, but unless I'm flying, it stays at home, in a drawer.

It's certainly not for everyone, as apps are used for almost everything, but I've found it helps me achieve deep focus by introducing just a little bit of friction, and forcing me to be more "in the present".

hot_gril3• 2 years ago

I carry a phone everywhere, but all the apps companies want you to install seem to add more friction if anything. Like, I have a credit card, why the heck would I use Apple Pay, let alone some store-specific payment app? Even if there's some fancy digital restaurant line system, that works via SMS, I'm not installing the Olive Garden app.

k__8• 2 years ago

I tend to use media (games, chats, dating apps, social media, etc.) excessively (for 4-8h a day)

However, since I never miss them when I have better things to do, it never fits the definition of addiction.

On the other hand, I also don't drink, smoke, or consumer caffein without a purpose, so maybe I just don't tend to get addicted.

blueflow• 2 years ago

Theory (open for discussion): With ADHD you don't get addicted, the excesses are mostly to fill the boredom between the better things.

mtlmtlmtlmtl3• 2 years ago

This is just plain wrong. People with ADHD are much more likely to develop addiction than people who don't. Most of the addicts I know, including myself, have it.

bradleyishungry2• 2 years ago

Smoking is twice as common in people with ADHD. ADHD specifically affects impulse control which means you’re much more likely to get addicted because bad habits are harder to stop doing.

emptyfile• 2 years ago

100% utterly wrong, people with ADHD are A LOT more likely to get addicted and stay addicted.

This is clinical data NOT open for discussion.

Blows my mind that people think medical data is a topic for discussion where your opinion matters.

k__8• 2 years ago

At least it feels like that for me.

I tend to eat more unhealthy food when I'm bored or depressed, but the moment I have an interesting task, I forget to eat the whole day.

WarOnPrivacy2• 2 years ago

I tend to use media ... for 4-8h a day...I never miss them when I have better things to do

Would it be reasonable to restate this as - media is the ~best thing available to you, 4-8h/day?

And by 'Available' I mean like 'readily reachable' and not like 'available if you reorder your life'. No wrong answer; just me wondering.

k__8• 2 years ago

I'm a writer, musician, software engineer, etc.

I have all these vocations and avocations available at my fingertips, they just don't always feel interesting.

bilsbie• 2 years ago

You raise a great point. But that identifies a bigger problem. Why is it so hard to find better things to do?

k__8• 2 years ago

No idea.

It seems to me that neurotypical people don't have that issue.

Then again, I don't think I'm close enough to any neurotypical person to judge that.

vonjuice4• 2 years ago

A trait of an addiction is that it significantly alters the way you perceive rewards and pleasure. It's not that it's hard to find better things to do, or that the other things aren't better, it's just they're not that. It's like it lowers the brightness on the rest of life.

If you manage to stay away from it for a period of time you start to see that it was just a lie, a skewed perspective.

WarOnPrivacy2• 2 years ago

I tend to use media (games, chats, dating apps, social media, etc.) excessively (for 4-8h a day)

I would do (and have done) genealogy for that kind of time. I think I can best describe it as overlap between it and addiction behavior. I base it on:

..how people close to me feel about it

..how often it squeezes out other worthwhile and important uses of my time

..that I keep justifications at the ready and think about others who do the same

I have no declaration to make about it other than I need to be mindful.

k__8• 2 years ago

"..how people close to me feel about it"

People I care are usually one of the reasons, I forget about excessively using media. So, they don't suffer from it.

"..how often it squeezes out other worthwhile and important uses of my time"

Theoretically? More often than not!

Practically, as I have ADHD it's not easy to define worthwhile consistently.

"..that I keep justifications at the ready and think about others who do the same"

Usually, I don't think explicitly about it. I don't justify it, I just do it for a while (more or less excessively) and when I deem other task more worthwhile (for whatever reason), I forget about them completely.

Aurornis• 2 years ago

I tend to use media (games, chats, dating apps, social media, etc.) excessively (for 4-8h a day)

This statement alone could be enough to qualify your habit as an addiction, FYI. If you compulsively fill your free time with a behavior that you describe as “excessive”, then that’s a sign that this is not a healthy behavior.

Perhaps it’s more important to realize that something doesn’t need to fit the exact definition of “addiction” in a textbook for it to be an u healthy behavior.

However, since I never miss them when I have better things to do, it never fits the definition of addiction.

This doesn’t actually disqualify you from addiction like you think.

For example, an alcoholic might drink excessively when they find themselves in a situation or location that triggers their excessive behavior (going to a bar, driving past a liquor store on their way home, attending a sports event that serves alcohol). Part of their treatment would include modifying their behavior to avoid those triggers. For you, the trigger could be as simple as having large amounts of unplanned free time.

On the other hand, I also don't drink, smoke, or consumer caffein without a purpose, so maybe I just don't tend to get addicted.

I had a friend who was in the addiction treatment and recovery industry for a while. He said it was actually very common for people to end up in rehab because they believed themselves to be immune to addiction or to “not have an addictive personality”. This created an opening for a lot of denial and rationalization, which led to deeper and more protracted problems before they did something about it.

A common example is a functional alcoholic: They can go for years denying that their use of alcohol is a problem because they’re holding down a job and they may skip days of drinking under certain conditions (something better to do) without going into full on classic withdrawal. However, they still have a problem and still default to drinking excessively during bouts of idle time. Excessively is the key word in this situation, and it’s the key word in your own post.

To be honest, the fact that you described an undesirable habit as “excessive” with 8 hours of use per day and then two sentences later tried to rationalize yourself as someone who doesn’t get addicted would be a major red flag that this behavior is problematic. Addicts tend to go through phases of rationalizing away their problem before they accept it.

k__8• 2 years ago

All good points, thank you.

However, isn't psychological or physic strain also a part of addiction?

I don't feel bad while doing it and I don't feel bad while not doing it (just bored).

Triphibian5• 2 years ago

I am over a year in to using a Light Phone II as my daily driver. There are many inconveniences, but the change in my life has been worth it.

thisischarbs• 2 years ago

What's THE biggest inconvenience would you say? And do you find yourself using more of your laptop/computer to stay on top of things?

Triphibian5• 2 years ago

The biggest inconvenience are businesses that insist on an app. I bought tickets to a hockey game and couldn't attend because the venue doesn't honor printed tickets. When I have to Zelle my mechanic I do it from my laptop at home before I leave the house -- good thing I trust him.

I "keep up" on news via my laptop -- which I keep open on my desk. I check my papers and Hackernews, etc throughout the day. I have a print subscription to the New Yorker.

VyseofArcadia2• 2 years ago

I really wanted the Light Phone II, but I need my phone to play music and podcasts. How did you get over the absolutely boneheaded way audio files are handled?

Triphibian5• 2 years ago

I listen to CDs in the car. I have been considering getting a cheap mp3 player.

izzydata• 2 years ago

Do you regular carry some other single purpose electronics to compensate the lack of function? I want to get a simple phone such as the Light Phone, but I wonder if I'd also want to bring around some kind of small camera or mp3 player.

Triphibian5• 2 years ago

I carry no other electronics. I just deal with it.

forgotmypw100• 2 years ago

Reading this makes me realise I have a healthy relationship with my phone. I don't have any "social" apps installed, or "scroller" apps (Insta, TikTok, and things like that). I don't pick up my phone during the day while working, and in the evening it sits next to my keys by the door. Being present is easy.

On my tablet, I have my RSS reader which produces about 30 entries per day, of which I read 2 or 3 articles, and then I'm done for the day. If I put down the tablet to do something else, I have zero experience of "FOMO" because blog articles are experienced at a glacial time scale.

But also on my work laptop, we have Slack and Email and such on my laptop (only, no hand-held devices), and none of them have notifications enabled. Also, once I've read my mail to inbox zero, I close that tab. Then I'll open Slack (not both at once), and once I've caught up I close it. Then I do some productive work. I'll open them later when it's convenient for me.

I think that's an attitude I developed at some point in the past few years. All modern Internet-based tech wants your engagement, full of dark patterns (like making things disappear if you see it once or lift your finger), and you have to protect yourself from that. Choose devices, apps, services that keep you in control. Discard the ones that don't.

notyourwork• 2 years ago

These are all great tips. Especially closing slack/email and disabling notifications.

I struggled with these for awhile, growing up during the IRC, ICQ, AIM era, messaging always felt like a requirement of using a computer. Putting them away for focus time is critical.

JKCalhoun• 2 years ago

I'm similar to you where my phone is bare bones, often not within reach. I do take it with me wherever I go — often it is my wallet. Maps, Camera, Notes and Messages are about the only four apps I use on it (yeah, Health and Weather and the aforementioned Wallet — Apple Pay, actually - from time to time). When I find myself out and about, standing in line or otherwise bored, I don't pull out my phone as I see so many others do — there is nothing interesting to me on the phone.

But I also turn 60 this year so, for me, my laptop is my "phone". It stays at home of course (except on trips) but it is where I do all my browsing, coding, image editing, etc. And to divorce myself from my laptop would be a hard task.

A remote friend of mine checks email/messages only in the morning when he gets up. Sometimes I have been up when he texts me and I reply within seconds — only to get his reply to mine the following morning — like playing chess by mail. (Sometimes he never responds at all ... I think he finds connectivity to be bad for his mental health and I respect that.)

I would like to be more like him — limit my browsing to the morning; essentially turn off the WiFi by 9:00 AM so to speak. Unfortunately when I am finishing a task (perhaps an hour out in the garage building a virtual pinball machine) I use the break time (perhaps a cup of tea) to open the laptop and see what insanity the US politicians are up to this hour of the day....

bigie35• 2 years ago

Bob Iger?

_chu15• 2 years ago

The only social app I have is Discord, I'm 15 and it's like the MS Teams of my generation. Nobody likes it, it's designed like crap and we hate the developers but everyone uses it so we just kind of have to. There's really nothing better I can think of, and my friends aren't as much of a nerd as I am (They still think the nerdy stuff is cool though, they love my Pentium III + Voodoo3 retro PC) to use anything like Matrix clients or Revolt.

mtlmtlmtlmtl3• 2 years ago

Is there a blog post or somesuch about this P3 of yours? I'm twice your age, P3 was my first CPU so I'd love to hear more about it!

ParetoOptimal• 2 years ago

I'm wishing for a serious UX-driven attempt to create a discord replacement built on top of Matrix.

OkayPhysicist2• 2 years ago

What do y'all find issue with in Discord? Compared to literally everything else in a vaguely related space (whether on the org management side of things, Slack, Teams, etc., or on the broader video/voip/messaging side of things), Discord has pretty fantastic user experience, at least to my tastes.

sumtechguy• 2 years ago

All modern Internet-based tech wants your engagement, full of dark patterns

I cant prove it... but I have noticed that my phone when I leave it alone does not do much if any notifications. But if I pick it up for a few mins and fiddle with it. Suddenly there are 2-3 notifications from applications that havent made a peep since yesterday but only after I turn the screen back off. Usually to tell me something very trivial. I suspect there is a background timeout that waits 1-2 mins after I set the phone down. Trying to get me to re-engage with the thing.

fifteen1506• 2 years ago

All apps on Android have Sensor Access permission, permanently [I think] and by default. GrapheneOS also allows that by default but has a toggle to change the default to deny.

LinkedIn app is one of the apps which tries to access Sensors.

zikduruqe2• 2 years ago

For almost a decade I worked with mobile devices; their certification, R&D, testing. At any given time I would have a dozen devices on me to test out in the field or demo units prior to sale.

Now that I no longer do this for a living, I seldom if ever carry a phone with me. I don't do social media, I don't watch movies on a phone, navigation I just look up where I want to go on a map and just drive there. The only connectivity I have outside the home is my Apple Watch Cellular for those random "pick up bread" messages, weather, and to tell the time.

It is so liberating.

Loughla• 2 years ago

navigation I just look up where I want to go on a map and just drive there.

This is one of the two reasons I believe I cannot get rid of a phone. After getting lost in a not great neighborhood in the 1990's and getting jumped, I have pretty severe anxiety about travel to places that I am unfamiliar with. GPS has been a godsend.

And pictures of my kids. There is no more convenient way to take constant pictures and videos of my kids than with my phone. I don't remember entire years of my life, and therefore their lives. But I have pictures and videos to remind me!

syntheticnature• 2 years ago

From my observations, people's innate ability to relate a map to the world varies. There are some studies attempting to tie this to gender, but my experience is that is not a hard line at all. I'm sure training is a component, of course, but some folks do not tie the abstraction to the real world well at all.

I seem to be good at it, but no one in my wife's family is, so during family get-togethers on that side I'm usually driving or navigating. The fact I can retrace a path I took two years prior from memory is an astonishing feat to them.

nonrandomstring2• 2 years ago

" When I was seven years old, my daddy caught me smoking a cigar. Locked me in a broom closet for two days and two nights with nothing more than a box of cigars and a book of matches. No food, Brewster. No water, just those god damn cigars. Wouldn't let me out till I finished every last one of them. Taught me one HELL of a lesson!"

I think you and I got the Brewster's Millions treatment.

Around 2010 I was at the heart of the Shoreditch startup scene and we had boxes and boxes of iPhones sent to us by Apple. I literally had 4 or 5 iPods and iPhones on my work bench for messing about with. All the time I kept a Nokia as my actual phone and adopted the drug dealer's creed of "Never use the product". Something just clicked inside. I could see these things as very useful palm sized tablets. Cute. Probably "the future" , but I didn't actually have a use for them. Somehow that stuck.

slothtrop• 2 years ago

At least as devs/tech people go, the fixation on phones seems a bit off the mark as we're always on our machines. I use my phone for menial phone-stuff in addition to reminders/lists, but on my machine I can fall into a bad habit of too much reddit or HN (I never use fb or twitter).

I guess the phone issue makes sense for those who have dedicated work machines that aren't used for any personal use whatsoever.

bsder• 2 years ago

Dude found a girlfriend--now spends way less time online.

Isn't that kind of ... normal?

Most guys I've known generally cut down their "find a girlfriend" activities dramatically once they actually find one.

simonbarker873• 2 years ago

I managed to make my phone boring in the past few months and it’s delightful.

I removed all apps that need my engagement to make money.

It took time for me to realise why I was picking my phone up and then wondering why.

My brain was reflexively reaching for my phone as it was bored (or anticipating becoming bored?) but then when I concisely looked at my phone I thought “well there’s nothing to do here why did I pick it up?”

It’s taken a couple of months but now I rarely find my phone in my hand without a conscious reason to have it there.

nytesky• 2 years ago

It’s not just the apps. I know I have a problem with checking Hacker News and another very low tech discussion site (local to my area, basically a 2003 website).

The discussions are very pertinent to my daily life, unvarnished, and the clientele of note (kind of like Hacker News I guess).

For me it’s because I think I have very little time for real friends as a working parent; I text old friends from college and such, but my daily life is lonely outside my family, and logistics and chores consume a lot of that time. More free wheeling discussion like with a circle of friends is what these discussion groups fill for me, and that’s hard to quit.

chii• 2 years ago

I dont see a problem with HN in of it self. The problem is only when you spend disproportionate amount of time on HN (or twitter), vs other activities.

macNchz• 2 years ago

More free wheeling discussion like with a circle of friends is what these discussion groups fill for me, and that’s hard to quit.

I’ve enjoyed discussion boards long before smartphones, but have been spending more time scrolling them on my phone than I’d like since 2020. This point, along with the author’s discussion of “the desire underneath the desire” is making me think that I’m actually just missing the types of conversations I’d have with coworkers at lunch or over happy hour beers before I started to work from home full time. Most of my close friends are not programmers or involved in startups, so this sort of makes sense to me as a missing social outlet.

DHPersonal2• 2 years ago

For me it’s because I think I have very little time for real friends as a working parent; I text old friends from college and such, but my daily life is lonely outside my family, and logistics and chores consume a lot of that time. More free wheeling discussion like with a circle of friends is what these discussion groups fill for me, and that’s hard to quit.

It's the same for me, too. The people around me have few common interests, and conversations with them are awkward and sparse, and I've changed enough in my life that the communities I once was a part of are no longer feeling as welcome to me anymore. I've found the online communities to be both the best and worst outlet in my life, because they are directly tailored to my interests but are also not actually in my proximity.

actionfromafar• 2 years ago

So very hard.

rollcat• 2 years ago

I really enjoyed participating in Solene%'s Old Computer Challenge 2022: <https://dataswamp.org/~solene/2022-07-01-oldcomputerchalleng...>

I adjusted my rules a bit to make them fit into my setup (WFH, Homekit lights, etc), the main challenge being that rather than accounting for time spent online and trying to limit it to 1h, I just wouldn't go online at all (unless for work). It was a wonderful week, and even one week can start to make a long-term impact!

Another thing worth trying is to leave your phone at home, and attend to your "digital needs" from a smartwatch. The screen is too small and the input too quirky to be efficient at wasting attention, but you can still get directions, pay for stuff, reply to a message, etc. (I actually don't have mobile data on my watch so I need the phone to keep the watch online, but I'm mindful of when I'm in "no phone mode". You can also seize the opportunity and just go offline, without giving up on things such as checking the time or playing music.)

worldsayshi• 2 years ago

then when I concisely looked at my phone I was thought “well there’s nothing to do here why did I pick it up?”

I think of this as a possibly universal psychological trick that can allow you to slowly adjust your behaviour.

I.e:

- To do less of something, think of how useless the impulse is when it happens. I.e. dull the impulse.

- (To do more of something, be on the lookout for and amplify any impulse that drives towards that behaviour.)

It seems kind of obvious but sometimes we amplify bad behaviour by punishing ourselves and end up amplifying the impulse.

Brusco_RF• 2 years ago

I think an electric shock would go a long way.

Years back I tried to make a phone case that would shock me at random while using it. The idea was to replace the dopamine hit you get from checking your phone with a twinge of anxiety and dread.

I never finished the project. Turns out generating high voltages requires tall inductors, which generally make a phone case unacceptably thick.

enobrev5• 2 years ago

The addiction is real and strange.

A couple years ago, I removed most social media out of my life; anything on my phone with a public "friends" or "follows" list.

I can't put my finger on it, but overall I found myself more at peace.

I did eventually end up back on Twitter and adjusting the social app "rule" to "strangers-only" apps. And I found that worked out well as I could still get up-to-the-moment industry things (I've since switched to threads).

Recently I needed to sell an old couch and craigslist wasn't getting the job done, so I installed Facebook, fired up the old profile, and made my listings.

And now I'll just randomly catch myself browsing Facebook. It's without purpose, and I don't care much about what I'm seeing. I just randomly end up there scrolling. It's the weirdest thing.

The couch is still unsold and I've had two scam attempts on Facebook (none on CL). So I'm very much looking forward to getting rid of both on garbage day

simonbarker873• 2 years ago

Maybe just donate the couch and the payment is getting to remove FB from your phone again?

bookofjoe7• 2 years ago

You could put the couch outside on the curb and instantly solve both problems. Plus making someone very happy with their new couch.

walthamstow• 2 years ago

I tried the same and ended up becoming an expert in the Met Office weather app. Breaking the habit of picking up my phone and doing something, anything, was really hard.

simonbarker873• 2 years ago

Assuming you are British I feel you get a pass, just opening that app and hoping for sun is character building

bookofjoe7• 2 years ago

I remember remarking here years ago how I annoying I found it to have to use my phone to read QR codes while watching TV, only to learn that almost every HN reader/user ALWAYS has their phone on their person/within reach. Mine is rarely on my person/within reach.

lotsofpulp4• 2 years ago

Why do you read QR codes while watching TV?

HPsquared3• 2 years ago

I'll find myself closing my browser because of boredom, then within 5 seconds feeling bored and reflexively reopening it to the same site. This can happen a few times before I become aware.

travisgriggs• 2 years ago

I removed all apps that need my engagement to make money

This is the heart of the issue right here. Nicely out in one sentence.

Now if we could just get members of society to apply the same principle to their newsfeeds. I walked into a room discussion yesterday where a few were extolling how they “read both sides.” I congratulated them on subsidizing not one, but two circuses.

isolli• 2 years ago

For a while I was tempted to get a minimalist phone like the Punkt MP02 [0] or Mudita Pure [1], but in the end I could not give up on:

- A camera (to snap pictures of our kids)

- A map for navigation

- Authentication apps for banking

There seem to be a few success stories in the comments. I'd be curious to hear how they made up for the missing features I listed...

[0] https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp02-4g-mobile-phone/ [1] https://mudita.com/products/phones/mudita-pure/

pdxandi• 2 years ago

These are precisely the reasons I want a smarter phone. Taking pictures of my kids and navigating around town. We also listen to children’s stories in the car using Spotify so that too. Banking I could probably work around but it’s possible I’m just not realizing how much I use my phone for these types of things. That said, I have zero social media or scroller apps, outside of HN.

marginalia_nu• 2 years ago

I've adopted a different approach. Going fully offline makes life really difficult, so I decided to basically compartmentalize my online life.

I have different user accounts for different tasks, with privoxy set up to block irrelevant network traffic . Admittedly I mostly use a desktop computer for my online life so it's tailored toward that, but I did configure my phone to use a proxy as well it's been working pretty well.

Means I can cut back on "mindless" social media use without having to cut back on intentional use. I did a write-up here: https://www.marginalia.nu/log/99_context/

vundercind5• 2 years ago

It’s a document scanner, a document-signing device (we did basically the entire house search, offer, and closing process all on our phones, last time), flashlight (I use this daily), camera that can do “live photos” (they’re magical, I have zero interest in a camera that doesn’t do that), a check-depositing terminal, a tape measure or level (in a pinch), a note-taking device, and so much more. Music player. Alarm clock. A credit card.

My phone is without a doubt the single most-useful electronic gadget in my house, and it’s not a close call. My desktop machine and laptop are nothing but toys unless I’m building stuff for computers. (My tablet is the second most-useful, and again, it’s not a close call)

Toutouxc2• 2 years ago

a document-signing device (we did basically the entire house search, offer, and closing process all on our phones, last time)

Interesting, what software/platform do you use on the phone?

dallasg3• 2 years ago

Almond?

weinzierl• 2 years ago

I have a similar experience. I lived almost three years without Google and Amazon[1] before a global pandemic changed my life in a way that did not make this sustainable anymore.

Admittedly I considered ending the experiment even before the pandemic hit and it is very likely I would have done so. Also I deliberately did not pick up the abstinence again.

Despite all that, I would never call that phase a failure. It gave me a lot of confidence that life without these services is well possible and that it was not much of a sacrifice for myself. What it thought me, however, is that it very well was a nuisance for others sometimes[2]. And that is the reason I ultimately decided not to continue, but I believe I use the services of both companies much more deliberately than before.

[1] Why these two of all things? In 2015 or 2016 I sat down and classified all the services I was using by how much valuable data they collected about me and how much value they provided in return. These were the two services that lost. It might seem strange at first but the data Amazon has about me is a ton more valuable than the data Facebook has. I decide what I put on my profile there, which friends I add and if I want to use messenger. I feel I do not have that choice with Amazon - I order what I need, but that still paints a pretty accurate picture of me. I'm not sure if my analysis today would come to the same conclusion, but that was my thinking back then.

[2] This is even more true for WhatsApp, but there I'm still steady.

mofeien• 2 years ago

For one month now I have mobile data turned off on my phone. I have started reading much more on the subway since the main distraction is gone, and there are surprisingly few drawbacks. Of course, YMMV.

What started as a one week experiment quickly turned into a month and now I'm thinking about getting a cheaper data plan, since I'll only be using it for emergencies.

hot_gril3• 2 years ago

Yes, the only thing I can think of needing mobile data for is navigation, and that's not too hard to solve either.

webdoodle• 2 years ago

How long was he in 'phone detox'? From what I gather, only 2 months, which isn't nearly long enough. I've been 100% phone free for 4 years now, and was 95% free 2 years prior to that (only powering it on for work). I can personally say that anything less than a year is probably not long enough to even dent the addiction, and anything less that 2 won't teach you the discipline to stay phone free.

barbarr• 2 years ago

Seconding this. I was phone free for an entire year, only to get re-addicted a few months later.

runamuck• 2 years ago

I recommend turning off all notifications and then configuring the phone to allow texts/ calls from "Favorite Contacts Only."

msluyter2• 2 years ago

A lot of articles on reducing phone use coming out at the moment. For example (older, but recently updated: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/break-up-with-you...) I think a lot about the fact that we carry on our persons the most addictive device ever created.

I've recently adopted the grey scale trick -- set your phone to grey scale display mode. It works pretty well! Of course, I can always disable it if severely tempted, but it creates another hoop to jump through. I also have one of the phone safes, which I use sporadically. Ironically, having an Apple watch makes the phone safe more effective, because I can lock up the phone but still answer critical calls if necessary.

Weird that in the 23rd century, a lot of us are replaying Oddyseus, collectively tying ourselves to the mast.

HPsquared3• 2 years ago

Cellular smartwatch (Pixel watch in my case) is great for minimizing distractions while retaining basics: calendar, note-taking, basic messaging, phone calls, maps, music (via Bluetooth) and payments. But WITHOUT the very distracting web browser and YouTube. Battery life can be pretty poor though if the phone is turned off, you really can't listen to music all day for instance.

I also use greyscale mode on phone, can set a keyboard shortcut. Some apps are also just far too colourful - e.g. Duolingo - and look better in greyscale I think.

Phone can be a productivity machine too though with a Bluetooth keyboard, phone stand. Can have full desktop environment with a keyboard and mouse and VNC client.

the_snooze2• 2 years ago

Seconding smartwatches. There's no reason to habitually check my phone (and risk getting distracted) when my watch tells me if I have notifications. My watch is basically a read-only beeper for high-priority notifications, so there's no fear of missing out on something important.

I don't even need a cellular watch. Just having the phone inconveniently nearby (e.g., in a backpack, or on the bathroom counter instead of a nightstand) adds enough friction to eliminate mindless phone use.

acedTrex• 2 years ago

Yep this is the primary benefit of my apple watch, i no longer feel the need to incessantly check my phone for notifications. i just glance at my watch

keshet• 2 years ago

Another +1 for the smartwatch.

Before: Every time a message arrives the phone makes that noise, and a little lamp is lit in my brain which stays lit until I pick up and unlock the phone and look at the message, answer, etc.

After: The phone is in silent mode all the time. When a message arrives I get a little tickle on my wrist - I just glance down and see who it's from and the lamp in my brain has nothing to do anymore. I even sometimes forget to pull out the phone and answer the message later.

It's easier to leave the phone out of reach, I feel less need to have it on me. It's great having a phone which never makes a sound. If a call comes in I see it on the watch and can reject the call from my wrist and optionally send an SMS instead. And podcasts are not interrupted by annoying pings.

It's a Garmin, so only have to charge it once every 10 days or so, and there's not much to do on it.

AlwaysRock• 2 years ago

+1 for grey scale.

Other things that were hugely helpful for me:

- Turn off tap to wake on your phone. It sounds funny but having to press a button to turn on your screen will make you do it less.

- Remove social media apps from your phone. (duh). If you have to use them, use them in browser which generally sucks and will prevent you from using them for a really long time.

- Take apps off your home screen. My phone is a lot less appealing when there isnt a shiny bright a/b tested to death app icon telling begging me to click it. It takes seconds to search for and pull up apps.

- Turn off notifications for everything but calls/texts. (duh). I don't need any push notifications. Once you stop getting them you will stop looking at your phone expecting them to be there.

graphe2• 2 years ago

I've done grayscale but the truth is that I'd disable it with muscle memory over time. I got efficient.

At the end of the day I had no life and I didn't spend it on anything worthwhile so the phone it was. Once I did worthwhile things I naturally used my phone less. I'm glad you k kw your limits and it works for you, but beware your brains searches for efficiency!

NoraCodes• 2 years ago

I think a lot about the fact that we carry on our persons the most addictive device ever created.

The device is not addictive. Some applications of the device are addictive. It may seem pedantic but I think it's an important distinction; it's the difference between, for instance, parents limiting "screen time" and parents engaging deeply with what their kids are doing on their "screens", which can range from learning programming to interacting with real-life friends to, yes, mindlessly scrolling Instagram or getting radicalized.

Cthulhu_2• 2 years ago

I mainly use my phone to "waste time", somehow I've gotten into a lifestyle where I end up waiting for other people a lot to do something - codependency, woo - and tend to browse Reddit while doing so. It's fine if it's a few minutes, up to half an hour, but after that I start to think wtf I'm doing with my time.

Mind you, I'm not alone, the other two people living here do the same, the joys of ADHD I suppose.

captainclam2• 2 years ago

I've never used social media or had a "problem" with my phone. So I used to read articles like this a little smugly, but I'm growing increasingly discomfited by the notion that I'm...out of touch..?

Yeah, it's probably overall a positive thing that I've never been hooked on instagram, but it's also a language/shared experience with which I have no point of contact. I'm a little worried that not having a social media presence /at all/ is going to turn or has turned from mildly admirable (such restraint!) to...weird.

And it's great to be weird! I just hope that it doesn't impact potential connections in the future.

thfuran• 2 years ago

I'm a little worried that not having a social media presence /at all/ is going to turn or has turned from mildly admirable (such restraint!) to...weird.

Well, I have some good news: here you are, on social media, having a presence. Admittedly, it's a bit more niche than Instagram.

captainclam2• 2 years ago

Haha, good point. I'm not a hopeless case after all.

browningstreet• 2 years ago

National borders and most romantic dates won’t ask for your HN profile but they will ask for all the other major social networks. Not everything with an account and a comment system is a Social Network to lay-people and first encounter authorities.

dgfitz3• 2 years ago

Before the abused and tired notion of "social media" was coined, this was called... a forum. Nothing "media" about it.

stronglikedan• 2 years ago

While both have been coined "social media", I think there's a huge difference between content aggregation/discussion sites, and content creation sites. I think, deep down, everyone knows HN and its ilk are not "social media". It's a merely discussion forum at most.

0xbadcafebee• 2 years ago

HN isn't technically social media, but it's close. The little vote buttons, the karma, the constant feed of "hot" articles, are designed to fuel the dopamine push that creates addictive engagement.

What it lacks to be true "social media" is engagement around a social network. There are certainly "social networks" at work on HN, but most of the users don't know each other and aren't focused on each other's statuses, pictures, videos, relationship statuses. Instead they're mostly focused on intellectual competition via comments. (when you're not allowed to compete for jokes, like folks do on Reddit, you compete for whatever else defines your identity, which on HN is intelligence).

Ironically, HN's always wanted to be a social network, in that they want to build "a community of users" where the users all recognize each other (they claim that's necessary in order to build a community). Once HN introduces personal blogs or tweet-like status updates, it will 100% be a social network, with all the same health concerns.

jacquesm3• 2 years ago

Forum participation is a bit different than social media in that it is first and foremost about the discussion and not so much about 'you' which seems to be the main focus for social media, furthermore you can't follow people and there are no push notifications so it is impossible to create 'an audience' other than whoever is there.

Those are distinguishing factors that are strong enough to differentiate otherwise the BBS I used to hang out on would have been social media and IRC would be as well. I don't buy that broad categorization. Facebook, TikTok, Youtube, Instagram, Twitter -> social media. Reddit not and HN definitely not.

Though the quantity of 'meme' content may have to factor in there somewhere and then we have a continuum of online participation with on one end personal messaging and on the extreme other IG, TT, FB etc.

seoulmetro4• 2 years ago

Hacker News isn't social media. No matter how much you want to claim it is.

camgunz• 2 years ago

I think there are important differences between news forums like this one and social media:

- HN doesn't have notifications

- HN doesn't provide affordances for virality: you can't "retweet"/"subtweet"; you can't start trends like #ProtectTaylorSwift; you can't brigade people; etc

- HN doesn't have a personal algorithmic feed

- HN doesn't have DMs

- HN links elsewhere (mostly) for the main content

- HN's moderators are available directly, and they also participate in discussions

- You can't be an influencer on HN: you might be a patio11 or something, you might even get jobs from your HN karma or posts, but hawking products based on your clout for a kickback is astroturfing/shilling and the community is pretty good at snuffing it out

---

I guess overall my argument is that if forums--even forums like Reddit or random vbulletin forums--are social media then the term kind of loses meaning. It opens the door to questions like "are blogs social media, after all there are accounts and comments sections".

I know people highroad social media and its users a lot (I'm guilty of this haha; finally my misanthropy is good for something!), so there's something attractive about an argument that cuts holier-than-thou HNers back down to size (trying to be generous and lighthearted here, again I'm a member of this crew). I just think the shoe doesn't fit in this case. There are good things about social media! Black Twitter! Queer/Geek Mastodon! But I really feel like those services are meaningfully different than forums--especially this one.

sonicanatidae3• 2 years ago

Personally, I don't use tech to interact with people. I use it to interact with information, data, etc. I can live without it, but prefer having it because there is always something I want to know more about.

When I was a kid, the source was an over-priced encyclopedia. Now, it's a search and to me, that's the magic.

Also, you can't Ctrl-F search paper, and that's a huge downside, imo.

YMMV.

kaashif2• 2 years ago

Personally, I don't use tech to interact with people.

I am a person. You have interacted with me using tech.

How are you defining "tech" exactly? I use messaging apps all the time to organise things with friends or talk to distant family members. There's no better way to do it, I can't meet everyone in person and if plans change, it's better to know sooner.

sircastor• 2 years ago

I think you're the 21st century equivalent of the people who "don't own a television."

It depends on what your social circles are like. Given that you're not attached to social networks, it seems likely your associates aren't super connected either. So you might miss out on a few inside jokes, but those are fleeting in the moment anyway. Probably nothing truly long lasting. Because of the broadness of the social network experience, it's not the same as missing Dallas or Game of Thrones in prior decades. And you might not have a water-cooler to talk at anyway...

PaulDavisThe1st• 2 years ago

it's not the same as missing Dallas

tell me how old you are without telling me how old you are :)

TehShrike2• 2 years ago

I installed TikTok for a couple weeks to try it out. It wasn't as interesting as people acted like. I don't think you're missing much.

petsfed2• 2 years ago

My experience with Instagram Reels and Youtube Shorts and Facebook stories (and all the other things that compete with TikTok) is that it can still get its hooks in, but you have to invite it in. That is, if it doesn't immediately grab you, its not enough to open TikTok and idly doom scroll for 2 minutes. You have to consciously watch for 15 minutes before it starts to alter your brain chemistry.

bitfilped2• 2 years ago

No worries, the line near the top of the article about needing a phone in the search of a partner is so absolutely foreign to me I had to stop and reread the sentence to be sure I was comprehending correctly. And I'm more than a decade younger than the author!

rblatz• 2 years ago

I’m in my 40s, how would you expect to court a partner without a phone?

There is already plenty accounts out there that even the relatively small barrier of iMessage -> SMS is a large enough of an inconvenience to stop a lot of casual relationships from moving to the next level or even continuing.

Having no phone means you are basically unreachable for most of the day. A much more significant hurdle to get over. It’s possible to find another like minded person but that is a very tiny minority of people looking for a partner. It’s not the 90s anymore and people are accustomed to living in this constantly connected world. Look at most sitcoms from the 90s so many of the situations they find themselves in just aren’t relatable because of the easy communication we have with everyone at all times.

insane_dreamer• 2 years ago

you're really not missing out; social media has its benefits but I'm not sure they outweigh its detriments

I deleted my FB account ~8 years ago and twitter ~1 year ago and have not regretted it one bit. IG is the only one I have left and use that to share/keep up with family/friends' photos.

arsome• 2 years ago

As long as you don't overspend on weird. Being weird is great until it isn't.

araes2• 2 years ago

Having gone the other way, can comment slightly. Tried FB, Instagram, Twitter, Pinterest, Youtube, Vimeo, Imgur, LinkedIn, and Slideshare. (Plus several forums/newsforums like Reddit, Slashdot) Mostly found out I was not humanity's demographic. I don't really like posting exercise photos. I don't really want to take pictures of my pets. I don't watch sports all that much. I don't follow celebrities much. There go most of the 10k+ categories. (re: Instagram's unlinkable explore page https://www.instagram.com/explore/ )

From my own experience, you don't actually feel very "in touch" unless you're successful. Instead, you end up making a lot of posts into the void that maybe get 10-20 views? 100 on a ++ post. Spend a month on a demo and get 1 comment. Watch nobody ever read what you wrote, while others post "does sugar go in spaghetti?" and get 60 million views and 4 million comments. [1]

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58270497

fragmede• 2 years ago

what's your demo?

andoando3• 2 years ago

I dunno if it’s that weird. It can help if you want to be more social of course.

rootusrootus2• 2 years ago

My phone has never really been the problem. I don't install frivolous apps, don't watch YouTube or TikTok, etc. The real problem for me is ... HN.

Here I am. At work. With one browser tab wasting time on HN. Admittedly, though, I'm not totally lost. I'll check HN when I'm taking a break for some other reason, running a big suite of tests maybe, or like now, listening to our C-suite regale us with the exciting future of the company and how awesome we all are. Somehow they manage to do this while continuing to sound like they have no idea what to actually do next (and it's not a tiny company, ~5000 employees). But I digress.

doublerabbit• 2 years ago

I to, here right now instead of writing PowerShell am on HN.

Although, who really wants to write PowerShell anyway. It's hell.

The S is silent.

vonjuice4• 2 years ago

I chuckled.

ap11071• 2 years ago

A few weeks ago, I watched a YouTube video [1] that helped me reduce my phone usage from 2-3 hours a day to less than 30 minutes. It made a significant difference in my life. Sharing the link here in case anyone needs a helpful guide.

[1] [YouTube video](https://youtu.be/Ek2eo5lrZws?si=dotZxn-EttMOmF9W)

helboi4• 2 years ago

I find that all of the positive effects he's talking about of trying to cut down consciously eventually fade away after a while. I dislike how the article acts like he's become enlightened from one detox. I've been in this mode many times. This has been harder than dealing with a nicotine addiction for me.

marviel• 2 years ago

Recently, when I feel the urge to pick up my phone without a specific purpose in mind -- I force myself to write something down in my (physical, pen/paper) journal instead.

It doesn't even have to be "why am I trying to pick up my phone right now," though it often becomes that.

Analyzing how this makes me feel, I've found I am more calm throughout the day, and I attend to things with a bit more mindfulness / care.

karaterobot• 2 years ago

I’m currently on my phone for 90 minutes a day. Five of those are spent on Instagram. I no longer feel addicted.

I take it this is an improvement over the prior state of affairs, so that's great to hear. But I'd personally consider 90 minutes an awfully long time to spend on my phone every day.

If I assume the author doesn't have a laptop they're also using, and their phone is their only computing device, that sounds like a victory large enough to write a followup article like this about.

If not, I think I'd want to know whether they had just shifted their usage from one platform to another rather than actually decreasing the overall magnitude. If that's the case, I wouldn't consider it much of an improvement.

tech_ken2• 2 years ago

What’s the desire underneath the desire to check your phone?

This seems like a big question that gets elided in discussions of social media addiction. My understanding of "classic" addictions (ex. substances) is that there's typically some initial romantic experience or period where a person kind of falls in love with this ideological version of the object of addiction ("chasing that first high", but with a wider definition of "first high" than simply the first time they took the drug). Maybe they spend a beautiful month in Paris drinking wine all day long and that forms the bedrock of the later addiction, as they try and recreate th e magic of that experience ad nauseum. I've never really tried to reconcile phone addiction with this pattern though, but if we are going to call it a true addiction we should probably attempt to square these things up. Identifying the underlying desire, rather than just modeling the phone addict as someone simply pressing a dopamine button, seems like a more productive approach to developing a healthier relationship to technology. Like in my case, my worst scrolling behaviors occur when I'm avoiding something that I find overwhelmingly stressful. When I'm enjoying the outside world I rarely reach for me phone, it's only when I'm uncomfortable or anxious that I open Reddit or Insta (or when I'm waiting for my brain to finish waking up). Maybe targeting this anxious-avoidance would help me end the behavior, rather than trying to behaviorally hack my way off the phone.

rolph• 2 years ago

F.O.M.O.

fear of missing out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomo

tech_ken2• 2 years ago

Definitely see how that's a factor in many cases, but I can see other possible explanations. For example, I used to be a real serious Twitter addict, but it wasn't really FOMO driving that IMO. My own post-hoc analysis is that it was a mixture of needing feel "in control" during a period of political upheaval, alongside a desperate desire to build a personal brand and receive recognition. There's lots of people and lots of software, I think the underlying motivations are going to be different for different pairings of the two.

jebarker• 2 years ago

I agree that it's deeper than just dopamine addiction. I think the phone provides relief from our deepest insecurities. For me, I found putting down the phone (and alcohol) came much more easily when I addressed the real issues I was trying to escape from or find answers to.

shinjiempath• 2 years ago

Just my experience - but I think a large piece of this has to do with many of us join “social media” or a forum. We get excited at first to be able to see our current and new friends, it’s this feeling of opening a massive conduit to see the people you know and like / feel a sense of belonging. Facebook started as a college app - college is probably when some people are the most social. But after a long time, friends drift, I have so many people on social media that I haven’t actually had a conversation with in years but still see their updates. I feel like my addiction is rooted in the desire to connect with people, to see friends. There isn’t a physical place that makes sense to do so to get the same thing (bar, church, common room, whatever) so I go on social media to see those people, then realize I don’t have anything to message them over because it’s been years, and doom scroll. Engagement converted.

I see your point about the “romanticised version of themselves” and that’s what comes up for me - curious if anyone else feels the same.

hn_throwaway_99• 2 years ago

I've struggled with a bad phone addiction, and my previous attempts at either going phoneless (or rather smartphoneless) failed because there were enough useful things I needed from my phone on a regular basis (e.g. maps, Uber/Lyft, Venmo, etc.)

I think that after years of trying I finally have a system that has greatly reduced my "mindless scrolling" on my phone. I had previously set up "focus mode" to block apps, but I did it with the idea that I would be "in the zone" and thus blocked anything that could give a notification like the Messages app and GMail. The blocklist was too broad so I ended up just turning it off. Now I only block the apps that I use for "mindless doom scrolling", like the browser, any social media apps, shopping apps, etc. Of course then it's easy to just click the "use for 5 minutes" button, but I was amazed the amount of times I would just unconsciously open one of these apps whenever I felt the smallest tinge of boredom. It was at least a reminder to me "Do you really want to be looking at that now?" I'm not perfect know but I've come to enjoy being a little bored at times and forced to find something more interesting to do.

I also banned my phone from my bedroom which vastly improved my insomnia symptoms.

madmask• 2 years ago

I think the key is blocking feeds. It’s totally ok to actively look for stuff online with a question or problem in mind. For me it becomes addictive when I am prompted by a feed.

Multiplayer• 2 years ago

Wait till these guys try the Apple headset.... oh the irony.

I think the AVP (Apple Vision Pro) is incredible. I am wearing it... a LOT. I'm working, wandering around, playing, etc. I don't think I'm crazy either. It's not social media per se at the moment but it's definitely a major shift from not being "online".

I'm wearing it so much I'm getting puffy bags under my eyes (hopefully temporary)

There is a whole new set of issues and causation coming!

VoodooJuJu• 2 years ago

You don't look crazy, but it's definitely harming your social standing.

_uoud• 2 years ago

Yep, just like I wrote about my experience in my age of distractions post back during the COVID-times… It stayed on the front page for quite a while here on HN: https://www.lostbookofsales.com/age-of-distractions/

I also mentioned the greyscale screen trick people bring up here, haha. Phones are huge contributor to this whole problem.

graphe2• 2 years ago

I cracked my screen and didn't replace it. Ruins my experience for the better. Glad the writer stopped his anxiety and addiction... For now.

hot_gril3• 2 years ago

iPhone 6 throttling update did this for me. The phone was borderline unusable.

Stephen_0xFF• 2 years ago

I think the crux of the issue is our brains looking to be occupied with easily digestible content. I removed Facebook a while ago but then replaced it with Reddit and X. I quickly removed them, but then it was like my brain was looking for something similar and I was on Neighbors and Telegram groups for a while. So I removed those too, but now I'm on HN more. I tell myself I would rather be working, and that working is more beneficial to me in the long run, but for some reason, it quickly opens a tab to HN when I'm stuck or tired. Rewiring my brain is harder than I imagined.

orzig• 2 years ago

Having gone through the same cycle, I've done some amount of acceptance. HN is least bad, as long as I don't get sucked into writing comments (oops). The total amount of time I 'waste' is really not huge, so I try not to stress about getting it to 0. YMMV, but worth considering.

keanebean86• 2 years ago

I did a detox a few years ago. Just HN and maybe some Google news. Eventually I went back to reddit and it felt so weird. It took some time to get addicted to reddit again because it just wasn't as interesting. I really need to detox again because this stuff has ruined my attention span.

dstroot• 2 years ago

“Why, exactly, are we rendered so uncomfortable by concentrating on things that matter — the things we thought we wanted to do with our lives — that we’d rather flee into distractions, which, by definition, are what we don’t want to be doing with our lives? When you try to focus on something you deem important, you’re forced to face your limits, an experience that feels especially uncomfortable precisely because the task at hand is one you value so much.”

— Oliver Burkeman, Four Thousand Weeks

j4yav• 2 years ago

Does he get to an answer in the book?

SketchySeaBeast2• 2 years ago

I don't have an inspiring quote for it, but you can't focus on "things that matter" all the time, and often the things that matter that you can effect by thinking about them at that moment aren't that many. Yes, you can always be learning something new, but does learning for learning's sake actually matter?

chippy• 2 years ago

Perhaps we need to identify a substitute before quitting a certain thing? Something pleasurable and beneficial (not work). Like reading a book.

Simply cutting something out will leave a gap where that something was. We should fill it with things of our choosing otherwise it will be filled up with something of a similar gap shaped thing!

endemic• 2 years ago

Exactly -- don't resist, replace.

schneems• 2 years ago

I’ve always dreamed of a social app that frog boils my brain to something useful. Like imagine mastodon, but posts start gradually transition to duolingo questions or paragraphs of a book I’m reading on kobo.

My worry is that I would stop using the app in the same way I don’t open an ebook by default when I’m bored.

vonjuice4• 2 years ago

If you stopped using the app and didn't replace it with social media that would be a good outcome, if it improved your habits to the point of doing something creative or productive instead.

djhn• 2 years ago

Needs to be a feature built into the phone OS.

Start out chuckling to yourself reading tweets at 10am but after doing that for more than 5 minutes the feed starts morphing into your email inbox. That email you were dreading to open? Yeah well too late, you’ve started reading it now. Thank me later.

Come back from lunch and click on that catchy looking video of Primeagen reacting to yet another one of those articles that reads like hundreds of articles before it? Three minutes in he switches over to the terminal to prove a point about how anyone should be able to do a bubble sort except instead of vim it’s 3brown1blue sneaking in a lesson on the Bursuk-Ulam theorem.

It’s 8pm and you had to reply to a whatsapp message you received from your brother. While you’ve got your phone out you might as well catch up on what your friends have been up to on instagram. Except after 2 minutes the feed starts showing you your own past snaps of your kids and spouse! May as well stop staring at your phone and actually talk to them seeing as they’re in the same room.

EGreg• 2 years ago

It’s called curiosity

Gathering information about your environment

And also social interaction. Can’t be solitary hunter 24/7.

Men’s brains seem to be far better suited to embrace long abstract solitary activity (like math or programming) than women’s, on average and also at the extreme ends. Probably because of evolutionary psychology. But still even men have limits and need to take a break from sustained solitary activity, and socialize. Even if the actual socialization doesn’t produce any long-term deliverables, it helps center you psychologically.

Given the rise in remote work, I wouldn’t be surprised if FB/Apple hijack that to move interactions from the watercooler to the “metaverse”. I already see a lot of young men (not women btw) “wasting” hours on various Discord gamer / political voice chats.

https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Is-There-Any...

conradfr• 2 years ago

Activate the noprocrast option in your HN account settings and see where you land next ;)

jijijijij4• 2 years ago

Personally, I found the smartphone app and web experience to be waaaaaaay more addictive than desktop browsing, because the phone is always with me.

I also found I can break away from my phone, when I delete and disable all content streams. This painfully includes podcasts and Spotify, at least initially, and I also disabled Safari all together! Otherwise it won't break the habit of reaching for your phone! Screen time limitations for apps won't do, because I am still not getting the tease out of my mind.

The idea is to have the phone for communication with contacts, do-one-thing tools, navigation and personal time and information management. And nothing else. The phone should never be the place where "something happens", where you can discover and explore. It shouldn't be more on your mind than your headphones, not more exciting than a spoon. Notifications should always ever be sent either by "myself" (e.g. calendar) or by real contacts (calls and messages).

Public transport planning/navigation, synchronized calendars and encrypted messaging are the deal breakers with "stupid phones"/no phone, for me.

Sure you can still shift your pleasure seeking to the desktop, but at least your mind won't be bothered by temptation and intrusive thoughts, when you're on a walk, sitting in the bus, in the kitchen, on the toilette, ... You will have a chance to break away.

For desktop web, maybe ublock the 'next' button on websites like HN? Hide all the internet points?

esperent2• 2 years ago

This painfully includes podcasts and Spotify, at least initially, and I also disabled Safari all together!

I've done the same on Android since about six months ago. No browser, no play store, no social media apps. It's frustratingly hard and technical to remove these, and it shouldn't be. No problem for anyone here I am sure, but most people would find it too hard and give up.

Next I noted what still kept my attention on the phone and removed everything it all. My email client, ChatGPT app, all the games like solitaire. They all went.

It's great. I still spend time on HN, Reddit, and Facebook, but much, much less. And as soon as I leave my home office, I'm disconnected from all of it. I am pretty sure I will never go back.

I've replaced it with my ereader and a note taking app on my phone. Most of it went totally unnoticed and painlessly, the biggest cognitive issue I noticed has been my desire to research things when I am out and about. But I use the notes app to keep a list of things, and then I research them more fully and mindfully when I'm at my laptop.

Note that I definitely do spend more time on these websites on my laptop than I would have before. But the overall time I spend is way down, and that's good enough for now.

muffinman26• 2 years ago

I think attempting to replace the easily digestible content with work is part of the problem.

You say you're opening a tab to HN when you're stuck or tired, but should be focusing on work. Your brain is stuck and tired because it needs a break. You can train it to do something other than switch to easily digestible content when that happens, like taking a walk or stretching, but you can't completely avoid a loss of productivity when you're stuck or tired. The brain isn't 100% effective all of the time.

nonameiguess• 2 years ago

For what it's worth, I think I did a reasonable job of this. I don't consume any web-based algorithmic feed content and participate in nothing interactive other than Hacker News and do not visit Hacker News every day, or even every other day most of the time. Almost never on weekends. It's really an "I'm bored at work" thing.

As others said, I had to replace these things with something else. I'm not meditative enough to just sit around with a perfectly still mind staring at the wall. For me, it was a few things. Books, first. Not hugely consistent with what they're about. First few years was mostly sci-fi and fantasy, then a year or so of non-fiction pop physics books. Right now, I'm mostly reading cooking books and learning to cook better. That's the second thing. I cook all of my own food, from scratch, and experiment a lot. That consumes quite a bit of time and it's active time. Third, music, but not algorithmic feed music. No YouTube music or Spotify recommendations. Nothing social. I'm listening to complete albums, curated either because I'm in my 40s and already know a lot of music I haven't listened to in a long time, or via human critics the same way I curated music in the 90s. Fourth, movies, but again, nothing algorithmically generated. Just like it's 1999 again. In fact, Alamo Drafthouse is doing a celebration of 1999 for its 25th anniversary. It happens to also be my and my wife's high school graduation year, so a lot of beloved movies to go see. At home, we're doing 70s. We've gotten through Easy Rider and Rosemary's Baby (yes, I know, they're 60s), Badlands, Days of Heaven, Dog Day Afternoon, and Harold and Maude. Quite a few more to go, queued up and ready, curated from prior knowledge. I've already seen most of these but my wife has not. Fourth, exercise. You can't just get off the couch and do it. I spent years building up the capacity after spending the latter half of my 30s mostly inactive due to degenerative spine problems. Started off with resistance bands and walking 6 years ago. Today, I lift for about an hour 6 days a week and then run, row, or both for cardio, anywhere from 60-90 minutes a day. Fifth, concerts. My wife and I saw Judas Priest and Dead Kennedys at the end of last year, Tool last week, and we've got Madonna, Social Distortion and Bad Religion, Ministry, Echo and the Bunnymen, and Slowdive scheduled over the next few months. We usually travel to a multi-day festival or two each year as well but haven't decided which yet for this year. This is also curated from prior knowledge. I guess I miss out on whatever is hot right now, but oh well, there was plenty of great music already out there in 1995 and plenty of these acts still tour.

All in all, this gives me goals, accomplishments, scheduled events, social interaction with a real, non-anonymous person I actually know who is physically present, had made me far healthier, more fit, and better looking, and the quality of my entertainment, though I suppose less "addicting," is much higher.

The downside is this is expensive, but it probably doesn't have to be if you actively bargain-hunt, stay local, work out at a gym instead of buying your own equipment, and eat worse than me. Probably many people on the Internet would say another downside is I'm not very tuned in. It's an election year and I have no clue what any candidates are doing, saying, winning races, and I probably won't vote. Oh well. I'm sure the world will do about the same as it would have done if I didn't exist, which is fine. I'm not that important and neither are you.

Edit: I guess it's worth adding none of this involved or required getting rid of my phone. The phone is, in fact, quite useful. I listen to my albums on it. I buy movie tickets and concert tickets through it and they're delivered to the phone. I buy airline tickets and keep them on the phone. I keep my recipes, log my food, log my workouts, and map my runs on the phone. The local train system sells and keeps passes on a mobile app. There is nothing wrong with phones per se. Just don't let these apps gamify shit for you. Don't opt into social features. Don't create an account if they don't force you to. Disable all notifications. Don't worry about what other people are reading, where they're running, what they're eating. Just worry about yourself. Don't have or use any pure social apps. No algorithmically-generated content feeds. Read full-length novels, watch full-length feature films, and listen to complete albums. Force yourself to exercise at least a medium-term attention span. You don't need a change of theme every 40 seconds.

ericmcer• 2 years ago

HN is opened subconsciously while working whenever I encounter a difficult problem. Focusing is pretty easy when the road is straightforward, but the second I run into a challenge my brain tries to escape.

Not sure what that means biologically/evolutionarily.

namaria• 2 years ago

It means we short circuited the reward wiring in our brains with too much 'informational sugar'. We get obesity and type-2 diabetes because of refined sugar and high-fructose corn syrup. These things were never part of our diet in evolutionary time scales. Same thing with content. Our brains are getting trained to consume low effort high dopamine content so our scales for gauging difficulty vs reward of tasks are all out of whack.

stmblast• 2 years ago

This is a great article.

I think it's difficult to not be addicted with how much simple content there is out there that's easy to digest. TikTok, YT shorts and Instagram reels are pretty good examples of this.

wsintra2022• 2 years ago

That sugar addiction is the elephant in the room. What a history that drug has! We still ain’t had reparations for it.

h2odragon• 2 years ago

Gave up having a phone a year ago, when even the cheapest "prepaid" plans went to $30/mo minimum.

I'm way out in the woods, anyway. Verizon ran a tower here I could talk to until a few months before I gave up phone; but then something happened and i'm told its an AT&T tower now. It didn't provide signal anymore, even in the front yard, most of the time.

Having had several years of "phone don't work" is a great way to make switching to "no phone" easier. I just regret the money I spent all those years for a service i didn't really receive.

gwbas1c• 2 years ago

I mostly stopped using Facebook: I slowed down a few years ago, and generally stopped in early 2021. Now I probably open it every few months.

But, I'm still looking at news frequently when I'm on the toilet, or if I'm trying to fill a few minutes. I do it instead of reaching for a magazine. I use Google's feed. It's... addictive... But at the same time, it's not endless. At a certain point the "news" is just the "olds," and if I'm reading the "news" for that long, it's time to switch to Kindle or find something educational.

andoando3• 2 years ago

My interest in no phones is going back to the old days where you’d have to make plans to meet someone at sometime and be there next week with no communication in between, not having ease of access to every bit of information, not relying on maps, etc.

It’s crazy how much having a phone changes things and it’s fun to think about living life in almost another world simply by getting rid of it.

weiliddat• 2 years ago

I'm trying to go smartphone-less, but a major blocker are services that rely on apps that are critical to my life, e.g. banking, insurance, transport. Some of these services don't even have alternatives and you MUST use an Android/iPhone to do basic operations like transferring money, logging in, or showing your ticket.

Now that I mention it, it seems like the critical functionality that these apps provide are usually just credential holders, e.g. ticket / card, MFA auth that happen to be locked in a proprietary app. I really hope more services adopt standard credential/authentication mechanisms.

Anyone happen to know a list of services, e.g. banking (US/EU-based) that don't require an app these days?

wt__• 2 years ago

One addiction to watch out for is the desire to read articles about other people's attempts to conquer their phone addiction. They seemed to start about 2-3 years ago - surely we have passed the peak by now?

In my experience you get a degree of dopamine from the inevitable schadenfreude felt reading of the author's difficulty or perceived "failure", but there is a steep law of diminishing returns when it comes to learning anything new, until eventually you realise this and that, even if you are not addicted to your phone, you are almost certainly addicted to something else yourself (e.g. Wordle, some podcast you could almost certainly live without, websites you would be ashamed to admit to using, damaging personal relationships, the spotting or collecting of pretty much any real or virtual object and so on.)

The secret is to (a) tell yourself not to click on the stories in the first place and reward yourself for doing so (b) look but quickly scan them. Also, actually check who wrote the article, so you can decide whether or not you know or care who they are.

My own phone tips are:

- deleting apps (especially anything social but also YouTube and anything that feeds you random content - the advice from another commenter about considering the business model of the app is good) - inserting gaps between apps on your home screen so it's not cluttered (iPhone users: do a search for "Invisible iOS Home Screen icon Template" - it's ridiculous Apple don't let you add blank spaces, but we are (still) where we are) - turning all the badges/counters off - massively pruning notifications - having a mobile browser home screen filled with icons for 'meaningful/useful' favourite sites - using text only news sites (less distracting) - placing the phone face down or across the room - keeping it in silent mode the entire time - putting it in airplane mode at night - books/audiobooks (because more effort's gone into them but also they're longer, so there are far less frequent occasions when you have to decide/browse what to listen to next) - personally I'd also recommend turning screen time etc OFF - on iOS at least you can get a decent enough idea of usage just from looking at the battery page and time limits inevitably never work.

I'm aware if I was truly free of any addictive behaviour myself I'd have skipped writing a comment about it, but I don't comment on this issue that often and the above have genuinely worked for me for quite a long time.

Rudism• 2 years ago

I used a Light Phone II for a few years, which is essentially an expensive e-ink dumbphone (it runs Android under the hood, but you can't actually run any apps outside of some minimal built-in ones for stuff like directions and music).

My main gripe was that I like to listen to music and podcasts while I walk, and the LP2's apps for that are rather lackluster (nearly to the point of unusability for me). It drove me back to my smartphone a few times (a OnePlus something-or-other), which would usually last a few weeks before I'd go back to the LP2 again because the smartphone was too distracting (like I'd pop open a web browser to look up an actor while watching a movie, then getting sucked down a rabbit hole and missing the whole movie before I realized it was happening).

I'm trying a new experiment now--I've got a smartphone again but it's a super tiny one (a Jelly Star which has a 3 inch screen). It's very annoying to actually use for typing or reading because it's so small. It's only been a month or so, but so far I'm finding it's a very nice compromise. I can listen to all my podcasts and music using my normal Android apps, and I can fire up a web browser in a pinch, but it doesn't suck up my attention because it's so uncomfortable to use for any period of time.

wakasaka• 2 years ago

After many years trying to reduce my phone usage, I think the best way is to install a MMORPG such as wow classic or similar. I barely touch my phone now.

_benj• 2 years ago

this made me chuckle, but I'm with you on that! The times that I've been deep into something, either a project that enjoyed a lot (like writing a CHIP-8 emu, that was fun!) or a book that I couldn't put down, or a video game that I just to play (Ark?) I didn't even cared about my phone!

lrvick• 2 years ago

No phone for 3 years now. I am so much happier. Every excuse you have in your brain right now is moot because we survived the 90s, and with probably higher attention spans.

npteljes• 2 years ago

I have several excuses: one, yes this worked in the 90s, but as smartphones shape the culture now, they are a soft, sometimes hard requirement, now that they are widespread. We did fine without the internet and credit cards too, but not culture, business, life relies on it.

Second, surviving is a very low bar. Maybe it's not such an excuse to set it a bit higher. Living organisms survive all kinds of ailments, abuse, deficits and other bad situations. Yet, it's not "fine" to inflict these on each other at all.

Third, what works for one, doesn't necessarily work for another. It's great to find something that's working, but humans are different, their situations are different, they are at different stages of life, and so, advice in general is not very universally applicable.

pizzafeelsright• 2 years ago

My biggest help was switching to gray scale. A lot of the entertainment value of scrolling videos and photos goes away.

spacecadet• 2 years ago

I tried this for over a year back in 2011. The hardest things for me were maps, I had become reliant on mobile mapping... and of course friends and family complaining I dont have imessage or facetime.

DoItToMe81• 2 years ago

This is just a narcissist making a histrionic show over basic adult self control. I'm astounded the Guardian has such low standards.

blendo• 2 years ago

I expect that hundreds of years ago there was also much gnashing of teeth about people overusing the new technology of literacy.

My experiment in phonelessness was a failure, and it also changed my life

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