"That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

http://joethepeacock.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/thats-why-you-dont-have-any-friends.html

by kilian • 14 years ago

1041 195 14 years ago

joethepeacock.blogspot.co.uk

tseabrooks• 14 years ago

You can have all of the upvotes they'll let me give you. It's amazing being "all grown up" and looking out and realizing that highschool and all of the shit that happens while growing up has almost no connection to the real world.

ZanderEarth32• 14 years ago

Isn't the 'real world' relative? To a kid in high school, that is the real world. To a grown man among his peers at work, that is the real world. I never understood telling kids that high school wasn't the real world. I can understand telling them it gets better (and it does, I know) but to try to mask certain stages of their lives as not real doesn't seem genuine.

AerieC• 14 years ago

Maybe "the real world" isn't the right term, but high school certainly is an isolated, controlled, and artificial environment compared to the rest of the outside world. The kids are locked down and have little to no freedom and little to no control over their environment. Also, some things that are socially acceptable in high school are NOT socially acceptable in an adult workplace.

In that sense, high school is not "the real world", because high school students don't have the same freedom or the same tools to deal with obnoxious people as they otherwise would in the adult world. In "the real world", you have legal recourse if someone in your workplace is harassing you. You can get a restraining order. You can talk to your H.R. department. You can sue your workplace and/or the person if you've taken the above steps and nothing has been done. You can quit your job and get a new one. In high school you have none of those luxuries. Unless the harassment is extreme, there is very little likelihood of getting a restraining order against another student. Furthermore, getting a restraining order is not something a high schooler can do on their own (they would need help from their parents). You can talk to the administration at the school, but they don't have the same power, nor the same incentive to avoid lawsuits (although this is changing) as a company's H.R. department. Also, many school administrators are still of the mindset that "kids will be kids" when it comes to bullying/harassment, and are unwilling to do anything about the issue. Finally, a high schooler cannot simply quit high school like an adult can quit his or her job. Again, it involves their parents's help.

That is the difference between high school and "the real world". In the real world, harassment is a serious legal issue; in high school, it's just "kids will be kids". In the real world, you have at least a modicum of control over your environment; in high school, kids have no control. In the real world, actions have consequences; in high school, apparently, they do not.

einarlove• 14 years ago

By motivating the boy, I believe it could only strengthen his own motivation. Keep it up.

chriseidhof• 14 years ago

Slightly off-topic, but still relevant: a great quote from Alain de Botton:

"Intimacy is the capacity to be rather weird with someone - and finding that that's ok with them."

https://twitter.com/#!/alaindebotton/status/1924914438840115...

RollAHardSix• 14 years ago

That is now one of my favorite quotes of all time. What a great start to my day reading that.

kunle• 14 years ago

Not at all off-topic. Its spot on, and entirely relevant in this context.

In general pretty fun to read something that captures something so fundamental. Wish there were more folks like joe peacock to say those words to the awkward 14 - 16 year olds we were. Would have alleviated the pain a little bit.

personlurking2• 14 years ago

Also slightly off-topic, but in one of Alain de Botton's videos on Youtube titled "Epicurus on Happiness" [1], he states that Epicurus saw happiness as having 3 components: self-reflection, self-sufficiency and friendship. This leaves the question of 'can happiness be hacked?' to be pondered.

[1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20LTTRQcZ8c

aculver• 14 years ago

The author's observation about high school is exactly why my kids, by default, will be home schooled. If they decide they want to go to public or private school at some point, I'll let them. Unlike a lot of kids that end up getting bullied, they'll know that their attendance is completely optional. I'm not looking to shelter them from the real world, only the fake miniature society that exists at school.

jenius• 14 years ago

While I understand your point of view based on this one observation, I think this is a terrible idea if you look at the big picture.

Whether they get bullied or not, high school is an extremely important time for kids to gain social skills and learn how to deal with people. Dealing with people is one of the most important skills you can have, period. And that often means dealing with people that are being dicks, and people who you like and are good friends. And if people are being dicks, which they inevitably will be, it's a good time for you to think about it, build your self confidence, and figure out who you are.

I understand that sheltering them from the real world is not your motivation for this opinion, but it is the reality of what will happen. Your kids will miss out on a huge period of personal growth and a large expansion of their experience dealing with other people which they will never be able to get back later.

onli• 14 years ago

Totally agree, just want to add that their are different kind of schools and different kind of kids. If your kid really gets bullied, you can still change the school or send them to a fitting school in the first place. Not an ordinary high-school. "Just" have to make sure your kids would tell you.

An besides, even though bullying is unhealthy for the bullied kid, is a great experience to learn how that stops if you bash the right people, how to hack and influence society (maybe not something you want your kid to learn though).

invalidOrTaken• 14 years ago

Upvoted you both. Thank you for the civil disagreement that (unfortunately) is part of what makes HN special.

exDM69• 14 years ago

While high school can be a social learning experience (an awkward one), the outcome of it may not be entirely positive.

In high school, I learned how to smoke, drink, fight, cheat and steal. I almost gave up programming as a hobby because it was weird in the eyes of my peers. I narrowly escaped a life of crime by moving to a different city as soon as I was old enough.

Man, I'm happy to be out of that shit and out of that neighborhood. And almost out of school (finishing my masters').

chernevik2• 14 years ago

I would add that, if you have time to home school, you have time to help your kids build accomplishments that build confidence that carries through other people's crap.

A kid who achieves at sports / art / theater / computers / whatever has reason to _know_ they aren't little. Kids need help to organize themselves to achieve because the links between planning, persisting, studying fundamentals, spotting and handling emotional challenges and the emotional rewards are diffuse. It's hard to build the positive associations that build habits, and that's where parents can help. (Yes, it's hard to find the line between encouraging and demanding.)

Home schooling might be a necessary response to the schooling available. But social deprivation is a downside of any home schooling program, kids must learn to deal with other people. Better to meet frictions by building the kids up, rather than avoiding the frictions in the first place.

euroclydon• 14 years ago

I think it's interesting to hear more about offensive homeschooling. For instance, my brother is a senior commercial pilot. He has two high school aged boys who have been homeschooled all their life. They play (American) football in the fall and spend the rest of the year traveling the country for competitive sailboat races and catching free flights to Asia, Africa, South America and more with their mom.

Spyro72• 14 years ago

"I understand that sheltering them from the real world is not your motivation for this opinion, but it is the reality of what will happen. Your kids will miss out on a huge period of personal growth and a large expansion of their experience dealing with other people which they will never be able to get back later."

It is not necessarily the case that being homeschooled automatically equates to a child that has been sheltered from the real world. In reality, whether or not a child has missed out due to homeschooling depends heavily on the parents that are doing the homeschooling. A parent can homeschool their child and simulate a private school by integrating classes (with groups of children) from museums, libraries, and independent instructors. A parent can also homeschool their child by putting on a DVD and walking away.

I was homeschooled from pre-kindergarten through 12th grade. My parents relied on a lot of external classes to ensure that I was still able to develop the ability to interact with others. The reality for me was that I was able to have a far richer social environment as a result of my being homeschooled. By the time that I entered college, I had interacted with far more cultures and personality types than most of those around me. I went on to successfully complete my undergraduate and graduate degrees.

When I was homeschooled, I kept in contact with a small handful of friends that were also homeschooled. They all went on to do just fine in both college and in life. I realize that my experiences and those of my peers are anecdotal, but a study performed by the Discovery Institute in 2000 also provided evidence that there is no "sheltering" involved with most homeschools: http://www.discovery.org/a/3479

(Please note, I actually take issue with a few things in the Discovery Institute study, but I think that it does provide some degree of evidence that homeschooling does not automatically result in a maladjusted child.)

In my economics courses, we would sometimes take a look at the economic returns of education. I always found it strangely comical when someone would speak harshly about how homeschoolers are "sheltered" and then turn to me for moral support. It was always such a shock to everyone to hear that I had been homeschooled for my entire life. Some people even called me a liar outright. (I have always wondered what is it about homeschooling that seems to rub people the wrong way?)

I am well-spoken, outgoing, and have an easy time dealing with people. I do not say this (or anything else in this post) braggingly, but I say it to give credit to my parents for what their sacrifices were able to accomplish for me. You say that "sheltering" is the "reality" of what will happen, but how are you so sure of this?

I believe that the results of homeschooling, much like other forms of schooling, is a product of the teacher, the student, and the approach. I do not disagree that sometimes, with homeschooling, some children are not able to develop social skills. What I disagree with, strongly, is your insinuation that "sheltering is the reality of homeschool". Homeschooling a child does not automatically mean that the child will struggle socially.

chimpinee• 14 years ago

>gain social skills and learn how to deal with people

Learning to get on with people is important but school isn't such a good place to do that.

The social atmosphere in schools is abysmal. A combination of obedience to authority and placating bullies. It's more like being in the army, or in prison, than a modern workplace or a group of friends. At least in a group of friends you can talk freely, without needing permission or being teased.

I think one learns more subtle and useful social skills from interacting with friends (i.e. voluntary relationships, where either party is free to leave) and from interacting with colleagues.

In my case, this occurred in the years just after school.

I won't say that school doesn't teach a certain amount of valuable knowledge, but that knowledge can be obtained elsewhere, without the huge overhead of learning to share space with bullies, thugs, and people in authority who think they know what is best for you.

And I haven't mentioned the enormous cost of schooling: 12 years of your young life (instead of doing more enjoyable things that you stand to learn far more from). And for most people, stunting of individuality and destruction of creativity (which cripples the ability to learn new things later in life).

I think most people just assume that schools are good places to learn social skills because they were forced to go through it themselves, so they had to embrace it at the time. After a while, they look back with nostalgia, forgetting how much boredom and fear they had to endure.

michaelrp• 14 years ago

First of all, high school (for all its positives and negatives--and there are plenty of positives) is NOT the real world. Schools are the only places where there is such a high concentration of like-aged and experienced people. They are, especially in the U.S., carefully fabricated and constructed environments, often with their own sets of rules and regulations different from what one would expect any place else. (You need to raise your hand and ask permission to go to the bathroom? Someone can torment and bully you with impunity and its your own responsibility to learn to "deal" with it?)

Second, homeschoolers interact with many different kinds of people all of the time. Our kids play in community ensembles, participate in non-school sporting leagues, attend music and theater performances (during the day!), and experience the world with us in general. They have close friends their own age and younger and older.

The "home" and the "school" in homeschool is misleading. Many of us spend significant parts of our days out of the home. And to us (and I think to many other readers here) "school" is not synonymous with "learn". A school is a building or an institution. People don't learn because they are "in school", they learn because they want to (or need to, I guess).

We treat our own homeschooled kids as if they are, well, just people. My job as a parent is to provide for them (love, shelter, food, space--I'm an angel investor) and their job is to explore, learn, grow, adapt, think, do.

For us this works better without an institution involved.

ef4• 14 years ago

The thing is: school is nothing like the real world. It teaches you how to deal with school.

School is a very weird, twisted little society where none of the work has any real point, there's no source of purpose other than pure social approval, and everybody is either the same age or an authority figure.

The strategies you use for dealing with difficult people in the real world are completely different from what you have to do in school. Same goes for how to find friends, or how to decide what to do.

That's precisely why everyone is always saying "it will get better after you get out of high school". Because the conditions in school are not at all representative of the rest of your life.

windsurfer2• 14 years ago

I went to Bell High school in Canada as a gifted student, and I can say that I never experienced any kind of bullying - and I was very weird. Everyone was weird. It was great, and very much not like elementary school.

tedkalaw• 14 years ago

Is that a magnet school?

I went to a magnet school and my experience was pretty good. Sure, there were "jocks" - but their "power" is vastly diminished in a school where kids are sad if they don't get A's. As you said, it's like minded people being in the same place.

Unfortunately, not everyone has access to a school like that.

dsrguru• 14 years ago

Do realize that homeschooling has its cons as well. It can certainly provide a better academic education than a regular school if you use more efficient teaching methods than schools do, but you'll need to also expose your child to real people his or her age. If you do this through summer camp or after school activities, most of the children will have gone to regular schools and will, therefore, exhibit similar behavior to children at regular schools.

Regardless of whether your child attends a traditional school or is homeschooled, try to raise your child in a way that promotes confidence and a high self-esteem. Confidence is one of the best preventative measures at countering bullying, and it's very helpful in life. And make sure your child has avenues to make good friends. As this article shows, if that's not happening at school, encourage them to go somewhere where they'll find people with similar interests, be it a gym or club or whatever.

kilian• 14 years ago

I think this is the best advice. It's not about avoiding bullying (though that would be nice), it's about being confident despite what other might do or say. Sheltering won't help. Giving them confidence and self esteem (i.e. it's not you that's weird, but them, and you'll find that out once you get out of this town/high school/whatever) however, will.

fredericdb• 14 years ago

Lets all hide our weirdness at home. Lets not demonstrate to all miniature societies that weirdness exists in the world and its beautiful. Lets sit at home and wonder why the world is so different from ourselves and loath it.

unimpressive• 14 years ago

Even better, lets sit in our manor house on the hill overlooking the world. The kind with the thick iron gates and guard dogs. We can watch all the people outside set the world in a terrible blaze.

It's better to just watch the world burn.

Training your kids to hide from the worlds badness is a net negative in the bigger picture.

roguecoder3• 14 years ago

It doesn't necessarily help. I speak from experience: I was homeschooled and it was terrible. I didn't learn the 101 little tricks to make interacting with frustrating people that little bit easier, I didn't learn to empathize with people less smart than me and I didn't develop the social intelligence that I believe is vital for long-term success. Any time I had to interact with anyone I felt terrible and awkward and out of place. When I went to college I was as alienated and lonely as everyone else had been in high school and I still didn't have casual friends because I didn't know how to be friends with anyone who didn't already share my interests. I didn't understand letting other people talk in class, or that school was for learning, not achieving things, or that I could make people happy by listening to things I didn't care about (and in the process learn about interesting things I never knew I'd be interested in.)

When I got a job I didn't understand that jobs are for collaboration, not just achieving things myself. Most team jobs work best if members are able and willing to sublimate their egos for the good of the group: I was busy being smart and weird. I assumed that because I was right everyone else would, of course, agree with me, and so none of my ideas ever got adopted because I didn't know how to enlist people as allies. I was still super lonely and still hadn't learn how to have casual friends (close friends I always had, one or two, mostly other homeschooled kids, but they were people who could put up with me just the way I was, which was kind of an arrogant asshole.)

I eventually sat down and compared myself to people who were less lonely than me and figured out what I could do differently. I realized that I'd rather not be an asshole than be right. I developed an understanding of when and how to ask questions, how to work and, yes, fit in with a group while still keeping myself whole. I learned how to be passionate without being overwhelming.

My kids are going to school. I will fight tooth and nail for a safe environment for them with adults who are on their side and not on the side of the bullies, but I want them to grow up knowing that if you tell your friend to fuck off they will stop being your friend because you are an asshole, not because you are weird. If you are not enjoyable to interact with people won't be your friend because friendship isn't an entitlement: it's a collaborative project. It may be that if you find a huge city you can find someone who doesn't mind being told to fuck off, or maybe even who thinks it is cool, but that doesn't mean that prioritizing your weirdness over the comfort of people around you will lead to a fulfilling social life (especially because those people are likely to tell you to fuck off too). Developing friends will probably have as much to do with how we change and grow as it does with leaving suburbia.

Besides, we have the Internet now. There is no reason kids can't both learn to be part of suburbia and experience the wide world outside of it at the same time.

fusiongyro• 14 years ago

> I was homeschooled and it was terrible. I didn't learn the 101 little tricks to make interacting with frustrating people that little bit easier, I didn't learn to empathize with people less smart than me and I didn't develop the social intelligence that I believe is vital for long-term success.

See, I went to a public school and didn't learn that stuff either. Bonus, I got beat up routinely until high school.

lutorm• 14 years ago

I was not home schooled (I'm not sure such a thing exists in Sweden) but before I started school, my grandparents took care of me while my parents went to work, so I didn't go to daycare or anything like that. Even these days into middle age I'm clearly more "socially challenged" than most people. I remember school being quite a shock to me, and I do think that it would have been useful to be exposed to more kids at a young age.

So I guess what I'm feeling is that school isn't just for learning stuff, it's for learning to live in a world that's full of people, most very different from you, and where knowing how to interact easily with them probably is just as important as learning any particular "school stuff". Against this background, I'm fundamentally skeptic that the concept of home schooling really would be an overall positive in someone's life.

nostromo• 14 years ago

Thanks for this comment, I found it very interesting.

I recommend people also read another commenter's reaction to home schooling (it's completely the opposite of yours): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3884067

re_todd2• 14 years ago

Great post, very well-balanced.

One of the dumbest things I heard growing up was that to be silent is to agree with someone, I can't remember the exact quote, I think there are a few variations. So I'd see myself as a hero when someone would say something I'd disagree with, and I'd vociferously disagree. When I thought about why I didn't have many friends, I realized, though I saw myself as a hero following this high-minded idea about silence=consent, I was really being a rude, mean, self-righteous jerk. Then I'd go to the other extreme and agree with everything other people said, but I'd have no self-esteem or self-respect.

In the real world, it is more practical to switch the subject or say there are parts of other's opinions I can agree with, without agreeing with the whole thing. It's all about balance and nuance. I've been around many people that act like they always speak their mind, but then I've been able to observe them in difficult situations, they are far more conformist than they'd ever admit.

purp• 14 years ago

It's about building their confidence from age 0. It's about making and reinforcing a community of respect for difference wherever you are. And it's about being sure that your kids know they're never really out there all by themselves.

Our kids go to public school, are healthily wonky in different (and wonderful) ways, and have friends who are healthily wonky in other different (and wonderful) ways. We live in a community that, among other things, had spirited discussions about bullying years ago. We live there despite a long daily commute for me because we believe that having a good environment is almost as important as being good parents.

They look to you to tell them what's good and bad. Choose carefully the lessons you give, explicit or other.

j45• 14 years ago

I dealt with some really harsh stuff in school.

I only remember my real friends.

Learning how to pick you're real friends based on loyalty, character, values and doing the right thing is critical.

I won't tell you not to home school your kids. I will ask you to make sure they have the years of social interaction skills to find those other unique lone souls who do their thing regardless.

I'll ask you to ensure they learn how to deal with all kinda of people in the real world, unless you plan door them to forever telecommute.

japhyr2• 14 years ago

I am tempted to homeschool my kid for a number of reasons, but I also really want him to socialize with other kids in school. Does anyone have experience with being homeschooled for half-days, or something along those lines?

dholowiski• 14 years ago

I couldn't agree more, but I guess it depends on the school. Bullying was rampant in my school and the teachers were horrible (I like to think they were/are criminally negligent). A few years after I graduated, someone who was bullied brought a gun to school and started shooting (Killed 1 injured a few more). Little has changed since.

To me, school is a terrible, horrible place that I would never wish upon any child, and if I had kids I would never send them to such a place.

tjoff2• 14 years ago

The by far most important thing you learn in school is being social. That dwarfs everything else.

Yes, being bullied sucks but keep in mind that your kids will have to meet other kids as well, and if they are homeschooled they are going to appear weird just because they don't go to school and thus don't behave the same in crowds as everyone else does (trust me, this gets noticed instantly). That alone is basis enough for being bullied and that will only make them retract even more to the comfort of your home - and that could arguably be even worse than being bullied (in the long run).

Any kid that gets bullied is of course a serious problem and should be dealt with as best as possible (although it is a very hard problem to solve).

Gring• 14 years ago

What? No. Absolutely not.

Being bullied is not because you behave wrongly. You're being bullied because they others are assholes.

In the adult realm, there are still people behaving differently. And they're not getting bullied. You know why not? Because there is a state that punishes bullying among adults.

We need only one thing: punish bullying among non-adults. Currently they get a free pass. And every generation a million kids get scarred for life. No more.

pkteison• 14 years ago

I went to big public schools. I was valedictorian, a big geek, complete social misfit, bullied mocked and occasionally beaten, and I'm still a fan of public schools. Those social challenges were the most important lessons. Sometimes I have to make nice, sometimes the group of bullies aren't all jerks, sometimes I need to treat them as individuals, always I need to look for their motivations, sometimes they are even somewhat right and I'm in the wrong even if I don't agree with their method of resolving the dispute. The public school environment exposed me to the most different groups of folks available and made us all interact.

Even in technical jobs and working for programming firms, my bosses and coworkers have included a lot more of the folks I never got along with than the folks I identified with, there are just more of them out there in the world, and I am glad I have a clue why they don't like some things and what I can do to minimize or handle the conflicts.

It's probably not for everyone - it takes a fair bit of personal motivation to still learn when it clearly isn't strictly required of you - but it isn't automatically bad.

At the age when it would have mattered, I would not have had the wisdom to make the right choice. If my parents had offered me the chance to not deal with my problems, I would have jumped at it, and been worse for that choice.

datagramm• 14 years ago

On the home-schooling argument. I'm not saying you shouldn't home school your kids, but in my opinion avoiding bullies is not the best reason to do so. I can understand that people want to protect their kids, but I think it's much more effective to teach them to deal with it rather than just avoiding it.

I think it's incredibly short sighted to think that bullying just stops once school ends. People just learn to deal with it through years of practice. Learning to deal with crap like this is an incredibly valuable life skill and if you don't learn it at school you're going to have to learn it later in life. Sure, kids can be a lot more cruel than adults, but delaying the inevitable solves nothing.

I went to a state school in the north of England which could be described as 'rough' at best. Like many geeks I never really fitted in and was the subject of some fairly severe bullying at times. Like most people that were bullied (and anecdotal evidence would suggest that most people were bullied at one time or another) I got through it and never looked back. As soon as I gave up trying to fit in (and even started going out of my way not to fit in) people respected me a little more for it and life got easier.

Not that I want to tell people how they they should raise their kids here. I don't even have any kids of my own. But having been a child for a number of years I feel somewhat qualified to speak on the matter.

possibilistic• 14 years ago

Take the negative feedback you're getting with a grain of salt. All anecdotal evidence will support different claims; it simply comes down to planning.

I was homeschooled from the 7th grade, and from what I can tell I'm better off. I was able to focus on my own educational interests--computing and science. I launched a series of small, but cashflow positive websites. I studied Japanese through a free program by GPB for two years (another two via distance learning at University of Alabama) and ultimately found my way into teaching English in Obihiro / Tokatchi for half a year before I started college. I now find myself with a bunch of really great friends and colleagues; I've lived, loved, made mistakes and wonderful experiences. And I'm pretty sure your kids will too.

I'm sorry for brevity, but my phone sucks. If you want to discuss homeschooling topics and strategies at length, feel free to email me.

wtracy• 14 years ago

I'm a little surprised by all the negative responses you're getting. I and my sister were homeschooled from day one. We turned out fine. We're both gainfully employed, and I'm president of a local community group. :-)

The second half of high school we basically took the "remedial" classes at the local community college. I got almost straight A's.

I remember spending more time socializing with adults than with kids my own age, but I hardly consider that a bad thing. (Today I still do things like play with Lego, so I don't think I was warped by this.)

After some of the horror stories I've heard about public high schools, I honestly worry that I might have attempted suicide at one of those places.

excerionsforte• 14 years ago

Interesting. I learned during my tenure in college (still here) that everyone is weird.. has their quiddities and more over it's more or less isolated from what is really going on outside of it. You really aren't lonely, as per say. You always have the opportunity to connect to people who aren't similar to you, but quality over quantity I say. :)

jwingy• 14 years ago

Awesome.

On a side note, I wonder why this culture of popularity has to be the default in our schools?

EliAndrewC• 14 years ago

Paul Graham explores this question at great length in his essay, "Why Nerds Are Unpopular": http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

chris_wot• 14 years ago

Wanting to be popular is a popular topic in high school.

Tooluka3• 14 years ago

Because kids are uncontrolled there (in varying degrees), so they tend to self organize.

PS: this is default culture in any school.

kingkilr• 14 years ago

Do you think it's just limited to schools?

mattgreenrocks• 14 years ago

Status-seeking behavior is not restricted to teenagers.

Adults grovel at similar idols: money, beauty, fame. They just employ a bit more mis-direction to not make it seem so obvious.

personlurking2• 14 years ago

Always odd to have always realized that the 'cool' kids are popular because they can successfully mimic styles and behaviors pushed on them by corporations and style-makers. Shouldn't they instead be called 'mindless drones'?

Merchants of Cool http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/view/

re_todd2• 14 years ago

And it's the wealthier kids that can afford the stuff that makes them cool. It's all about getting the wealthy to feel superior to the rest of us and pretending that wealth had nothing to do with it.

roguecoder3• 14 years ago

Mirror neurons: http://dspace.learningnetworks.org/bitstream/1820/1858/1/Van...

japhyr2• 14 years ago

I think a good part of it is the fact that most schools don't really do a good job of meeting the needs of all students. There are so many students who are bored and frustrated because the work they are asked to do is either too easy or too hard. Make a good portion of the student body bored and frustrated, and the pursuit of popularity becomes a focus for many students.

tomjen3• 14 years ago

Basically because they have to organize some form of hierarchy and if there is no shared goal they will organize it around popularity (PG made this observation back in one of his earlier essays)

I am betting that if they end up on a primitive island they would organize with special respect for those who where the best trackers/hunters.

pgsandstrom• 14 years ago

There is also a hidden aspect of it: Those people who don't overcome teenage awkwardness. Those who never regain their confidence and end up the weird tech dude at the office whom no one ever speaks to. This guy might be able to feed the kids confidence, and then you can encourage "weirdness", but it isn't always as easy as that. Sometimes parents should just tell their kids to go play sports or whatever, no matter if they want it or not, just so they can learn to interact with other people and "be normal".

Tooluka3• 14 years ago

I second that. Better title would be "That's Why You Probably Won't Have Any Friends.".

Retric3• 14 years ago

As a socially awkward adult I can say I am one of the happiest people I know. I know enough to play the game if I need to, but it's just an act and I really do prefer to do my own thing. And I tend to do so enough that it's hard to maintain the basic social skills.

I suspect the idea that there is something wrong with loaners is mostly just projection. It's easy enough to vilify other and loners make the best fictional villains, but other cultures also have the ideal of the monk in the woods. In the end games of status are only important for those who seek status.

kstenerud• 14 years ago

I'm hoping you mean encouraging your child to continue seeking out new and different groups (sports, clubs, whatever) until he finds a place where people will accept his strong individuality.

If, however, you mean forcing him to join a group of "normal" people who will hammer him into the "normal" mold, I take great exception to your advice.

There is no worse blow to your self esteem than selling out on yourself to gain the approval of others. Yes, people in general like to belong, so let them CHOOSE to belong to a group that accepts them being themselves.

Here's what generally happens when you force an individualist into a group not of his choosing:

1. He resents you for deciding whom his friends should be.

2. It destroys his confidence because even YOU don't believe in him.

3. By the law of averages, his new group is likely to be comprised of exactly the kinds of phonies he hates, and they're likely to dislike him for his "weirdness".

Confidence is one of the, if not THE most important thing in the world. People respect confidence, even if they hate you. Bullying is an attempt to destroy your confidence while building the bully's confidence in himself by thinking he's the better man for destroying someone weaker than him (and so long as you don't fight back, he's right, btw). Most people get their confidence by herding with other people and mimicking them. It gives them a false sense of security, but it's confidence all the same. Unfortunately, that confidence comes at the price of never being able to be their true selves, and never being able to chase dreams that differ too much from the accepted norm.

Individuality and confidence are a potent blend. They breed explorers and free thinkers, poets, philosophers, disruptors, and cross-cultural bridges. They drive a person to blaze a trail of his own, bringing him after many trials and tribulations to doors that open but for a select few. However, this only happens IF he has the confidence in himself to try, and that comes both from within, and from his support base (you). Don't take that away from him!

magv• 14 years ago

Is this a US thing?

In Ukraine, no-one is weird. No-one is a geek, or a nerd -- there aren't even equivalent words in our language. Nobody thinks less of you if you're smart, shy, or talk about transistors on occasion. There are no "popular kids", and even the scariest kid in school is not a bully.

So, again, what is wrong with US schools?

Tooluka3• 14 years ago

I'm from Ukraine and I can say that at least in case of one school you are wrong. There was complete pack of school BS - nerds, geeks, alpha's, omega's, dominance games, bullying, etc. etc. And it was a little better than average school in the capital. I wondered at times what it is like in the regional schools... PS: you don't need to call geek "a geek" to bully him ;)

xixi776• 14 years ago

Those (regional or generally crappy) places can actually be better for some people -- true, bullying for the select unlucky few can be far worse, but on the other hand in my experience the rest of the students tend to be less cliquish compared to the "a little better than average" places.

ajuc• 14 years ago

I'm from Poland, I think we have similiar culture, at least we had when I was in primary school (in early 90').

You're right that there was nothing uncool with being good at math, or at computers - in fact people were jealeus about that(especially when you showed off that you "don't need to study"). But I experienced bullying nonethless, because I was shy kid with asthma, that couldn't play football or basketball. And other kids also experienced bullying, because of different reasons.

But it stopped when I got to secondary school in bigger city. Just because all the bullies went to worse schools, because they couldn't pass the exam.

Also - maybe it's rationalizing, but I think my primary school experience was good for me. At least I hope I won't forget what it feels like to be ostracized.

EDIT: I think it's very easy for kids that pass their particular school test for coolness (and for their parents), to overlook that some other kids are bullied in their school.

It just doesn't seem like a big deal that some people are "unpopular". When somebody is comfortable in a class, most bullying techniques won't work on him, and in effect seems harmless to him. Bullying isn't just beating up. Kids are very cruel sometimes, and they use psychical tricks for bullying, too. In my primary school one girl was always laughed off for stinking (I think she did not, really, but it's not the point). Kids made it into a play - they escaped from her, to not be "infected" with stinking. To parents - it's just some kids playing. But for that girl it wasn't easy probably. I'm ashamed to this day that I've participated in this, because I've tried to make them stop bullying me. Well, it was a good lesson at least.

crazygringo• 14 years ago

I think one important cultural thing is that, in the US, schools really are the center of your social life, including after-school sports, clubs, etc.

There are other countries where school is just school (more like a job), where there are no sports/clubs/etc., and your social life revolves more around your family and long-term friends. Sports might come from totally separate organizations. In this case, school is much less of a social thing. So maybe that has something to do with it.

d0mine• 14 years ago

There is "ботан" in Russian (pejorative version of "nerd") http://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/ботаник

bearmf• 14 years ago

You must be joking. Bullying in Russian and Ukrainian schools is probably much more severe than in US. It is common for people to get beaten.

xixi776• 14 years ago

there may be no similar words, and indeed the social structure is different, so transistors would not get you into immediate trouble; but, my guess is that you have been rather lucky -- either due going to somewhat unusual schools, or due to not noticing what was happening around you.

StavrosK3• 14 years ago

By the way, what's with the "even the furry had more friends than me" bigotry? Would "even the gay had more friends than me" fly?

54mf• 14 years ago

Considering the fact that he speaks fondly of him outside of that line, I assumed he was being facetious and playing off the common social view of furries as loner weirdos. Not that that makes it okay, but I don't think it was meant to be harmful.

evincarofautumn5• 14 years ago

I chalk it up to the fact that what’s perfectly normal within a group of friends can seem harsh from the outside. He’s probably just accustomed to making jokes like that with Jay, so sees no issue putting it on his blog.

StavrosK3• 14 years ago

Yeah, that's an interpretation I can accept. I'm not sure it was meant that way, but it might (the part about "he was my friend" makes me unsure).

mkr-hn• 14 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

'Bigotry is the state of mind of a "bigot," a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group.[1]'

It's contrast, not bigotry. Bigotry is when a jock beats up a furry for being a furry.

methoddk3• 14 years ago

He made a joke. Laugh at it. Not one part of that had anything to do with bigotry. Relax.

anotherthrow2• 14 years ago

The sentiment of the article is great, but a lot of it just doesn't quite ring true.

When the auther starts going on about other people being losers, and him being a winner, because they do things he doesn't personally value, you start to wonder if he is really free from defining himself in contrast to the guys who excluded him years ago. Life isn't a competition like that.

There's a classic transformation you see a lot of high-functioning geeks go through when they leave school, and start earning more money, living more cosmopolitan lifestyles and meeting more interesting people than those they left behind - they flip around and start juding their ex-classmates negatively in just the way their classmates judged them. You see it a lot on places like reddit, and I think it comes through a little in this article.

unalone• 14 years ago

It might come through a little, but there's a difference between comparing yourself perpetually to the people who used to torture you, and feeling sympathetic to a 14-year-old kid who's being tortured now because you remember what it was like to be his age. It's not too bad to remember that things used to suck, and that they're better now. Plus, I don't know a thing about this guy, but he sounds like like a cool dude from this blog post.

anotherthrow2• 14 years ago

I know, but on a (probably unfairly) uncharitable reading his advice is 'don't worry, that girl who didn't want to kiss you is a loser, and so are the people who don't want to hang out with you'. It might be comforting, but I don't think it's healthy or true attitude to take.

DanielStraight• 14 years ago

This is basically what I wanted to point out. And please understand I intend this to build up the community, not to tear down the author of the post.

"It's not me that's weird, it's them" is the wrong path to self-esteem. Really, it's a form of retaliation, and it's dangerous. If you categorize people who aren't like you as "weird" and write them off, then you are acting the same as those who are bullying you. The solution to bullying cannot be bullying the bullies.

I understand that when the author says, "There's nothing wrong with you. There's something wrong with them," his emphasis is on the first part. But the second part isn't necessary at all. And in fact, it's a dangerous attitude to have.

"Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

evincarofautumn5• 14 years ago

“Even the furry had more friends than I did.”

That’s a bit harsh.

Still, the overall sentiment is very much on point. It’s not really expected that a high school student should think for himself and go about his life normally, without adopting a particular social identity. Unfortunately, it simply doesn’t occur to some of us to bother trying to fit in. But if you keep an independent, open mind and learn to deal with people, you’ll do fine no matter what.

chernevik2• 14 years ago

It's a great post. One of my kids struggles socially, and I've had similar conversations.

I'd add this: You have to love the things you love. When you meet people who love the same things, and it could be a while, your friendships will go deep because they're founded on something deep and dear to you. And you'll be a great partner in exploration because you know these great things. Conceding yourself to other people's notions now erodes your ability to form real relationships later.

Which isn't to say such kids shouldn't look for as much commonality they can find. And they should note that they may have some genuinely negative and offputting behaviors which they shouldn't accept in themselves. It's very hard for these kids to pick out the social cues that they should read because they get so many they shouldn't.

But yeah, kids need to hear that it can sometimes take a long time to find their place.

nickik6• 14 years ago

Nice, that will help him alot.

As somebody from Europe, we always see these typical American High Schools and think it can really be like this. Sure they overdo it in movies but I have read a fair amount of blogpost and reddit comments that discribe the same problem.

There is grouping and groupe think too in Schools here but not in the same extrem way. It could be selection bios on my part but lets look at the diffrents in the schooling system.

In Switzerland (most parts) we have 1-2 years of Kindergarden, 6 years of Elementry School and then the people get split up in 3 diffrent section depending on your grade. The lower to only take 3 more years and after them mandatory school is finished and most people start an profecional education via the Dual Education System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system). The other way is to go 6 more years and then most people go to a universety.

The good parts are that more often then not you put people to gather that go together. The typical movie example where the bull beats up the nerd doesnt really happen. The next positiv thing is that you put people together that are about equal in how fast they learn. The guy who always distracts the class will not hold back the guy who wants to learn. The studends get the matiral in there own speed, thus they don't feel stupid because of the fast learners, witch can be bad for confidence and it can cause social conflicts.

The bad is of course that you split up frindships because people go to diffrent schools and you just don't see each other that much anymore. This happend to me and only years later we really start hanging out again. Today kids are much better equiped to deal with this. To other bad thing is that often good studends could help the others.

It seams to me spliting up teenagers that are in puberty is good way to avoid social problems.

Other opinions why this problem seams worst in the US or is it just selection bias?

SoftwareMaven• 14 years ago

I was talking with my neighbor (a second grade teacher) about this over the weekend. I think there are two problems: first, everybody is lumped into the same groupings, so the "advanced" kids are bored and the "slower" kids are lost. That leads to conflict on its own, but then we make it worse by expecting everybody to go college track with one other option: drop out.

For many kids, the college track education is worthless. My neighbor believes she can spot kids who are likely to drop out in second grade (there is a LOT of confirmation bias in that, I'm sure, but probably some truth). By making them all move ahead lock-step, we are, ironically, guaranteeing they are going to fragment and have problems.

It is encouraging to see some signs of change in education (at least here in Utah). There are a lot more trade options (ability to get a CNA in high school or starting apprenticeships in trades, for example). The math program is being re-built in an attempt to change it from "this grade learns algebra, so if you aren't learning algebra in this grade, you are dumb". On the flip side, my kids' high school has partnered with the local state university to provide kids with the ability to have an associates degree by the time they graduate high school.

So while education has been broken for a long time, and is still bad, at least anecdotally, it is getting better. The factory training ground aspect is changing, but, unfortunately, the authoritarian part is still getting worse (see, for instance, the six year old who was arrested for throwing a tantrum).

nickik6• 14 years ago

I think the modle put forward by Khan Academy is promising. Keep people together but let them work there own pace and stop with grouping by age.

I don't think they have a well written document about all there concepts but you can pease it together with these videos. http://www.khanacademy.org/#talks-and-interviews

Im talking physical school not internet education.

woobar• 14 years ago

Does this mean that if kid is underachieving in Elementary school he is screwed up for life? I've heard that similar system is in Germany. And at very early stage in someone life he could be relegated to be second-class citizen.

nickik6• 14 years ago

It is a problem but I think the system is pretty well optimized to allow to jump around.

If after three years you want to do the mid-level instead of the low one you can just add a year and do it.

If you do the mid-level you can go to something called "Kurzzeit Gymnasium" witch will take you four years but you end up with the same with the top-level kids.

Even if you do a educatonaly simple job with a start from the lowest level you can do a 'Berufsmatura' combined with working. This gives you almost the same thing as the normal top-level would give you. You can go to some university (there is no word for them in english but you get a beachlor all the same). With one extra year of school you can go to all of them.

In that respect im pretty happe with the system. Socialy it works out pretty good too, you arn't some kind of idiot if you go to the lowest level.

carguy1983• 14 years ago

No. The GED (HS equivalency) and community college systems are highly effective at getting turn-around kids into top public universities (like UCLA, Michigan, etc.).

adam-a2• 14 years ago

I'm from the UK and I have the same reaction to most of these stories. Can it really be that bad? Is the American school system so dramatically different?

I went to a high school which was not split by grade. I was called a "geek" or "boffin" (basically the regional equivalent of nerd) because I was often top of the class, or made fun of because I have mild scoliosis. I managed to keep a good group of friends though and I mostly just told the bullies to fuck themselves and got on with my life.

I think there were people who were unable to deal with bullying, and that mostly comes down to a lack of social skills, rather than any extra persecution that they suffered because of their intelligence or appearance.

I would guess it's selection bias.

rgoddard• 14 years ago

One of the big differences is just the size of the schools. I was in Ireland for 8th and 9th grade. The school I went to consisted of grades 6th-12th with a total of around 300 students, with 48 kids in my grade. My graduation class from high school back in the US was around 600. My high school consisted of 10th-12th grade with around 1800 students total. This difference in size makes a huge impact in the different cultures that have evolved in the different school systems.

johnhartigun• 14 years ago

I have a very similar view. One thing that seems to be specific for US high schools is that there are relatively clearly defined and isolated groups. In the school I attended (in the Czech Rep), there were vague / fuzzy groups but basically everyone was friends with everyone.

kitsune_• 14 years ago

I'm from Switzerland and the reality that you miss is that a lot of students will be thrown into the Realschule (lowest tier of secondary education in Switzerland) for a variety of reasons, including spiteful teachers or foreign parents who fail to understand the magnitude of this decision. Often the path is already being set at the Kindergarten age with inept teachers who are unable to properly educate foreign speaking pupils. From then on it's a direct path to the Realschule and later a string of two or three failed attempts at getting a professional education (as a semi-skilled cook, hair stylist, whatever)

My brother was sent to the Realschule because of a primary teacher who habitually hit the pupils he hated - he was a sadistic tyrant.

Roughly a decade later, My brother graduated in law and is now on path of becoming a very successful (and rich) international arbitration specialist.

Now obviously, not everyone will be able to turn the tide.

Another reality you seem to ignore is the fact that even intelligent people can be rowdy assholes.

My Gymnasium (high school) class was filled with them. They smoked blunts all day, lighted up books in front of the teachers, even brought some teachers to tears, they bullied kids and so on. They were very excellent students and didn't have to learn for exams.

As an introverted nerd this had the following effect on me: In order to fit in I started to smoke joints myself and missed 50% of the last year. I didn't have problems getting good grades so I didn't prepare for the Matura. In hindsight it was also dumb luck, not just my ingenuity that made me pass the Matura with good grades still. While I was still introverted, it helped ease tensions and I made a couple of good friends in the process.

In conclusion, from personal experience the Swiss education system has deep flaws.

nickik6• 14 years ago

> I'm from Switzerland and the reality that you miss is that a lot of students will be thrown into the Realschule (lowest tier of secondary education in Switzerland) for a variety of reasons, including spiteful teachers or foreign parents who fail to understand the magnitude of this decision. Often the path is already being set at the Kindergarten age with inept teachers who are unable to properly educate foreign speaking pupils. From then on it's a direct path to the Realschule and later a string of two or three failed attempts at getting a professional education (as a semi-skilled cook, hair stylist, whatever)

This is true and it is a problem with this splitting up system. What has to be said is that when you have the will you can still move out of it. There are briges at every level. Even when you are one your way to become a hairdresser you can to the "matura" and get into some universety.

This has to be added to the list of problems, with this kind of system.

> Another reality you seem to ignore is the fact that even intelligent people can be rowdy assholes.

Sure there allways assholes but I think its fair to say that less of that stuff goes on in such a split system. Smart kids slacking of is pretty common (I would guess that weed is more popular in these schools), the question is how bad would it have been in a uniform high school.

What form of bulling? Was there really physical stuff?

Im really into individual learning its the only way to prevent better studends from slacking of and distrupting class, bored people always act stupid.

> In conclusion, from personal experience the Swiss education system has deep flaws.

I had more or less good experiences. I just wanted to show the diffrence in the system, not praise it.

In my opinion its time for a huge reform in most education systems but that not really the thread to talk about that.

rickmb• 14 years ago

US schools have a much broader social role than schools in Europe, and therefor tend to form a social universe of their own.

In Europe virtually all activities that are not directly related to being in a classroom happen outside the school, and so kids are more likely to have multiple social circles.

Or in other words: going to school in Europa resembles going to work as an adult much more than in the US.

nickik6• 14 years ago

I think thats an importen observation. I don't think the government has to for diffrent sport programmes. In the small (5000-6000) people village I live there are so many diffrent clubs you can go to, I don't think a school could practicly provid all the deversety.

What happens alot more in the US seams to be other kinds of clubs (movie-knowledge). You seem to have AudioVideo, Math, Spelling clubs that one rearly sees in Switzerland.

abraxasz• 14 years ago

I like the article, a lot. But I have some reserve with the advice given.

In my experience, many people would actually be glad to hangout with someone weird if he gives them some time to get used to it, and take it easy on the weirdness at first. I consider myself weird (my weirdness is that I mostly don't give a shit about conventional thinking and politically correct things. I just love a good argument, to the point where I would provoke people I barely know into arguments about politics, religion, whatever), and I have to be extra-careful with what I say and do, otherwise people freak out. Sometimes I slip and people think I'm crazy. But I'm getting better know, and I have a group of friend with which I can be myself. I provoke them playfully and they understand that it's just the way I am. And I'm grateful that they do.

Someone quoted Alain de Boutton in the thread: "Intimacy is the capacity to be rather weird with someone - and finding that that's ok with them". That's exactly right, but intimacy is not something you get immediately, for free. It's something you have to build, it takes time, and sometimes it doesn't work. Most of all, it takes compromises: people will accept you as you are when they realize that you're interesting and that you care about them.

Now why should weird people go out of their way to befriend other people? Well you have to be pragmatic here, and think about what you really want. Friendship is an amazing thing, and is available to anyone, weird or not, and doesn't require you to change who you are. It just requires you to be patient and take it step by step. Is it being hypocritical? Pretending you're normal when you really aren't? Not if it's temporary. Think of it as a way to create a first contact, before working your way to a real connection, where both parties can act natural. That's what social interactions are about, that's what all this highschool BS is about, and that's why I think it's a bad idea to home school your kids.

EDIT: An example of my weirdness in action: I often mess up with girls I really like just because I can't help saying outrageous things just to spark a good old argument. Damn.

js2• 14 years ago

I'm with you right up to that part about not homeschooling your kids (homeschool dad here). But I'll let it go since I think you may just be trying to provoke an argument. :)

(Unless you've homeschooled, I don't think you have any idea how much social interaction homeschool kids can get; we don't just sit at home all day.)

Edit: I see comments below on homeschooling and from homeschoolers. Our kids get a ton of social interaction outside the home: homeschool co-ops/events/park days with other homeschoolers, language lessons, sports (karate, soccer, equestrian), music lessons, girlscouts/boyscouts, university outreach programs, town provided activities (acting, choir, pottery, etc), temple, playing with all the neighborhood kids, and that's just off the top of my head.

My kids are 9 and 11 right now and are way more comfortable socially, and better at it, than I (public school) ever was.

Ultimately I think a lot of it has to do with the kids and the parents. We chose to homeschool our kids because we think we can do a better job with their education, but it certainly hasn't hindered them socially.

anon_d• 14 years ago

I was home schooled, and I believe it did hinder me socially. What you say about social interaction outside the home is true, but it's still not all that much.

aidenn0• 14 years ago

I went to a well respected magnet school for high school, so we had a lot of HS freshmen that were previously home-schooled. Then I majored in Physics in college, so we had a lot of college freshmen that were previously home-schooled.

I came to the conclusion that while there is a strong correlation between home-schooled kids and poor socialization, it's almost certainly not as causal as most people assume. All the "really weird kids" that were homeschooled had equally weird parents, so there is a good likelyhood they would have had issues even being in public school.

That being said, it did seem clear (and obvious in retrospect) that what homeschooling does is allow the parents to have a much larger influence on their kids up to an older age. The typical late-elementry aged kid will have picked up a lot of behavior and habits from their peers, wheras the homeschooled kid of similar age will have done so to a much lesser extent. However, that influence seems to expire aproximately 4-8 weeks after the kid leaves the homeschool environment so I don't think it's a big deal in the long-term

alttag• 14 years ago

The great part (or the problem) is that it depends on the parents. And on the kids.

I was homeschooled for a bit, but it got to be too much for my mother (there were six of us kids at the time), so we went to public school. I needed the socialization. Even though I spent the majority of my time in public schools, I still didn't get that part quite right.

My kid brother (7 of 8) was home schooled later in life. Highly social. Smart too. But because his secondary education was primarily influenced by our mother, he's academically weak in the same subject she is. ... particularly math and science. The six oldest of us disagreed with their decision to home school through high school (we'd all been h/s-ed at some point in elementary and gone to a public high school).

Bottom line is, it depends. It may be the right decision for some.

Unfortunately, we often encounter too many examples of those that it wasn't the best solution for their circumstances. The ones who get it right often don't advertise their origin, be they "normal" or "brilliant." So, societally, we're left with a negative bias.

dorian-graph• 14 years ago

Provoking people is never good. I'm a little 'weird' too and I too have to watch what I say and do. I've given a good deal of thought to this 'weirdness' and have my own conclusions about true normal which partly align with this article.

Now, some things people do, say and are actually are a bit odd and perhaps not good. We need to change. Labelling one's self as weird isn't a pass to do whatever the hell you want. I've learnt that. If we excuse ourselves we then have to allow others to excuse themselves resulting in wonderfully horrible circles of selfishness, everywhere. Everyone needs to improve—to see what's bad and change for, again, there are things that simply are bad. The good things, improve them too.

The selfish relativity of the modern island is a sham that's going to collapse on the heads of those followers soon enough. We people seek to understand others, that is when things change. Unfortunately, like how Asimov wrote in his Foundation novels that there only really ever was one person who understood this (Hari Seldon), it doesn't happen often.

I was talking with a friend, a girl, in the car after we did some shopping and I made an effort to open the door for her. She said that someone had once said to her to never bother with someone who didn't do that and that person was quite vehement in his advice. I suggested perhaps not to disregard that person forever but perhaps to view it as a wonderful opportunity to teach and help someone.

omgsean• 14 years ago

>I just love a good argument, to the point where I would provoke people I barely know into arguments about politics, religion, whatever.

This right here is the problem with "embrace your weirdness!" posts. You're not being weird or unique, you're just ignoring social cues and deliberately making people uncomfortable.

If your weirdness is that you're super into physics or anime or whatever then that's great, but if your weirdness is that you think you're above learning how to properly socialize with other people then it's not on other people to accept you for it.

EricDeb2• 14 years ago

Agree. If you've ever seen Curb your Enthusiasm Larry David demonstrates this perfectly. He just always pushes it too far. Being weird is actually totally acceptable if you are confident and respond to basic social cues.

Aloisius2• 14 years ago

Being combative, antagonistic and argumentative doesn't make you weird. It makes you a bully.

xixi776• 14 years ago

I've met quite a few people who enjoy arguing about something far more than discussing favorite sports teams, or comparative benefits of different restaurant chains (eww!!), or the color of someone's socks (no, I'm not inventing this), or whatever their kids are doing in school. Of course you would want to stay away from idiots, but say OWS vs. libertarianism, or whether AAPL is a good investment, or pretty much anything else, is so much more fun to discuss with someone who disagrees.

Life would have been more interesting had this attitude been more common (interesting for people like us of course, for some others, probably supremely annoying).

methoddk3• 14 years ago

Thanks for this. I was the "weird" kid in junior high and someone just like you gave me that speech. It helped tremendously, and you changed that kid's life.

DanielBMarkham• 14 years ago

I'm about as asocial and celebratory of diversity as they come, and I love this essay, especially the conversational style. But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry.

In school people clan and desperately look for some identity to copy. This leads to all the terrible social behavior you see in most secondary and high school in the U.S. Somebody calling you "weird" can really be a badge of honor.

But there's nothing to be gained in being different in itself. While you should be who you are, if you only define yourself in how weird you are compared to others you're doing the same thing, only in reverse. Instead of saying "I will look at my peers and copy them" you're saying "I will look at my peers and do the opposite" Both of these are just the same kind of herd thinking. Being weird? Awesome. Being deliberately different? Not so much. You need to do a gut check on this one. Schools are full of a bunch of people who all are very proud of being different, just like everybody else.

I also note that the gym conversation consisted of people comparing social preferences: sports teams, hollywood stars, and so on. These kinds of conversations form a type of social bonding -- a joining of group opinion (even if outliers are allowed). It's this very banter that creates the group identity that then shuns other people for being "weird".

People are some funny animals.

ScottBurson• 14 years ago

Yes, except that teenagers don't know who they are yet. They have to experiment, trying out various identities and behaviors until they figure out what fits them and what doesn't. So defining themselves in terms of others, whether by similarity or by difference, is to some degree inevitable.

They do need to be encouraged to grow out of it, though, so your point is very valid.

rhizome• 14 years ago

They do need to be encouraged to grow out of it, though, so your point is very valid.

Just call it a "phase," that always works.

LesZedCB• 14 years ago

Well, and I would say it may not even be a bad thing for a certain period. Most of childhood development is imitation. We learn communication, behavior, etc, from our parents when very young. The same imitation exists up until some point. However at some point, it becomes unhealthy.

danneu• 14 years ago

Looking back on my highschool years and previous, my parents tried to encourage me to grow out of all sorts of phases.

They'd barrage me with empty platitudes like "just be yourself" when my primary frustration in life was that I didn't know who I was, or that being myself so far clearly led to nothing but social dejection. "Just be yourself" became an epithet that mocked me all day from the walls of halls and classrooms, often found block-lettered across posters of celebrities and eagles soaring over canyons.

It did nothing but make me feel like my parents were disconnected from my struggles, unhelpful in the same way "just go up and ask her out" fails to encapsulate dating. Convincing me that it really was that easy, sound advice for everyone in the world but me.

You grow out of phases by coming to terms with them yourself. It's how you evolve.

driverdan2• 14 years ago

What you described is the true meaning of hipster. Someone who does something because it's uncool or weird.

nerdfiles• 14 years ago

I never understand why this is interesting at all.

If someone chooses to like something or do something because others dislike it or choose not to do it, the fact of their choosing is compatible with them liking it for additional reasons. And that's uninteresting too.

I just don't get why the "pro-skub-anti-skub" dynamic exists at all.

"I like to ride bicycles because others do not, and because they're convenient" is simple, and moreover, it need no social anxiety to attach itself to the shorthand, "cyclist". It seems as of late every social category that crops up exists solely to spark this type of "definition sharing" talk exchange.

dclowd99012• 14 years ago

Why does every post on here need someone coming in explaining how it's wrong in some way.

It's not only disingenuous, but outright wrong to assume the author was saying "be weird for the sake of being weird." He's saying he is weird, and that's OK, just he won't see a lot of good in it in high school.

You're acting like he's advocating becoming a hipster, a straw man you invented.

endersshadow• 14 years ago

Did you come in looking for a fight? Daniel clearly stated that he thought the argument was a good one, but it's too easy to take the extreme from the headline (or miss the point of the essay entirely), and say that being "weird" is good in and of itself. It's not, clearly. What he's saying is, find your passion and damn the social torpedoes, because it'll all work out in the end.

Daniel's point was that being "weird" for the sake of it is not really the point of the essay. He was not creating any type of straw man. You read it too fast or not at all if you think he was.

ucr• 14 years ago

Why does every post on here need someone coming in explaining how it's wrong in some way.

Because that's how conversations are built. You either find something to agree with, or you find something to disagree with. Both are useful; even better is doing both at the same time.

But if you notice, you basically did the same exact thing you're complaining against.

pascalr2• 14 years ago

I barely look at comments now because it's too often about little flaws and rarely about the main idea.

You don't learn by arguing, it's pointless. Someone cannot be told the truth, he has to learn it by himself.

"I can only show you the door, you have to walk through it.", Morpheus.

I'd like to see comments about how to improve the idea and making even better, but I haven't found a single comment that does this yet..

The only valuable comments I found were links to other documents or a joke once.

earbitscom• 14 years ago

Completely agree. Inspiring post. The author never said anything besides, don't conform, stay true to yourself. A disclaimer wasn't needed, and I rolled my eyes the minute I started reading the parent comment.

chops• 14 years ago

"There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist." -Ayn Rand

celer• 14 years ago

I don't personally see a problem with adopting certain clothing styles, mannerisms, or interests to fit in with a certain group. I think most people spend far to much time and energy on fitting in to a specific group, but the primary benefit of clothing is signalling. If wearing one type of jacket over another lets me meet more people I want to spend time with, and I don't care all that much about jacket choices, then I don't see any sort of problem with wearing that type of jacket. Being perceived as weird relative to the norms of a desired group tends to be a disadvantage, and I certainly don't praise it. Think what you will, act as you know is right, but when dealing with others be willing to go along with otherwise undesirable behaviors. Why do you disagree?

saulrh• 14 years ago

  In school people clan and desperately look for some
  identity to copy.

This struck me. The most intelligent and self-aware of my friends seem to have consciously chosen some person or character to copy in high school or middle school. Perhaps this is a clever way to satisfy the urge while still being self-defined. I emulated the classic mad scientist archetype, for example, and it'd led me to reasonable success. I also suspect that practices such as spirit animals, guardian angels, and the whole positive-affirmations thing are related to this; to a first approximation, these advise that a person create an external target and attempt to emulate that target, and could have evolved as another way to sneak some self-definition through the copying.

EricDeb2• 14 years ago

very good insight. I too have noticed that intelligent people often consciously chose a character or archetype to adopt.

rdtsc• 14 years ago

Ha interesting! I was in the business of copying the mannerisms and styles of some of my college professors. It was fun, it was sort of a game I played.

Some cultures engage in this copying behavior. I noticed Japanese do it quite often. They will emulate behavior and outward appearance of other cultures (American, European) without seemingly understanding the meaning of such behaviors. It hard to describe, if you see it, you'll know it.

dkrich• 14 years ago

I completely agree. I don't really think there is any net gain to having people dislike you. I guess the optimal situation would be to do what you like but still have lots of friends from a wide variety of groups like you. It never hurts to have more friends, but it can definitely be a setback to not have any and worse, fall into a repetitive cycle where you constantly vilify people because they associate with a group until you convince yourself that only you are worthy of your company. I know, because I have done that too and found it to be self-fulfilling and self-destructive.

People who do things differently or have a value system that is significantly different to those around them will often find themselves as outcasts as a natural biproduct of how they spend their time and the people with whom they feel comfortable. But this doesn't have to be the case. If you find that you are on your own a lot, that should be a natural occurrence and not something to strive for. I think advising an impressionable youth to look down on others who do conform is a mistake because it could start him down the course of assuming the reason he has no friends is because nobody understands him and that will continue to reinforce itself until he is a all-out recluse.

When I look back at those times in my life that I was a recluse I recognize that people were genuinely dicks sometimes, but most of the time I was just not that easy to make friends with. Socializing is a matter of give and take.

dkarl3• 14 years ago

I like to imagine the Dalai Lama and George W. Bush getting stuck in a hotel room together. They'd probably have a wonderful time. We tend to assume that social relations are built on sameness, but people who can't build relationships without sharing every experience and attitude down to the last concrete detail are only one step more socially advanced than people who fail to build relationships at all. People who like to conform and be tribal have no need for the ability to find commonality across a superficial divide, but for weirdos, it's an essential skill. (Which I lack completely, of course, but here's to trying.)

WalterBright• 14 years ago

> Schools are full of a bunch of people who all are very proud of being different, just like everybody else.

I love the old Dr. Pepper ads - Join the non-conformists!

cbsmith• 14 years ago

I missed the part where that guy was advocating "I will look at my peers and do the opposite". It's more like, "don't look at your peers for any hint about your identity, because you aren't going to find it there".

jonnathanson• 14 years ago

"Being weird? Awesome. Being deliberately different? Not so much."

I realize I'm straying further afield of the original article in saying this, but we should keep in mind that being "weird" (or even being "different") isn't always a choice, or at least not a conscious one. I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to suggest that most "different" people have no agency in the matter. But a lot of them don't. Being different is a relative status typically assigned to you by the dominant social paradigm and context in which you exist. There certainly can be a choice, i.e., in whether to embrace this difference, or to attempt to amend it. And degree of self-awareness plays a huge role in the outcome. But often, even deliberate attempts to rein in the differences can fail.

Long before many (most?) of us even realized we had a conscious say in being weird, our peers made that call for us. What we're actually choosing is how to contextualize and reckon with that weirdness.

This is, as you've suggested, far different from a person's deliberately cultivating a surface-level eccentricity in an attempt to stand out (which is really just a case of fitting in by having an interesting quirk).

Finally, I'd suggest that those of us who consider ourselves "weird" or "different" -- regardless of whether that label has been intrinsically or extrinsically imposed -- should take a very nuanced and almost surgical view of it. By self-analyzing the weirdness, you can break it down into its components and decide which elements are useful, which are harmful, which are productive, which are counterproductive. "Weird" or "different" can be reduced to more elementary traits, rather than seen as broad, blanket terms. The broad terms may be value-neutral, but the smaller components often have values (good or bad).

dkarl3• 14 years ago

Before I say anything else, I'd like to say that Whit Stillman's new movie Damsels in Distress is a wonderful movie with an affectionate but nuanced take on weirdness. Check it out.

By self-analyzing the weirdness, you can break it down into its components and decide which elements are useful, which are harmful, which are productive, which are counterproductive. "Weird" or "different" can be reduced to more elementary traits, rather than seen as broad, blanket terms.

This is wonderfully expressed. I wish somebody with that perspective had been around to help me when I was a kid. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out whether the things I liked about myself and the things I hated about myself were two sides of the same coin. Everyone else assumed they were -- some people (like my parents) assuming my social difficulties were good and nothing to worry about, because a kid as smart and well-read as me couldn't help having social difficulties with normal kids my age, and some people assuming (and saying out loud, behind my back) that I was only smart because there was something wrong with me. All the adults (and other kids) who liked me or cared about me at all were of the opinion that I had no real problems, that I was just fine. So... then I could basically just drop my difficulties start enjoying an awesome and unconstrained life anytime I wanted to? I only tried that a thousand times; maybe the thousand and first would have been the charm. The only people who acknowledged I had problems were people who disliked me and wanted to drag me down. That was the worst part; the only people who saw the problems I was struggling with were the people who wanted to use them against me. I appreciate your advocacy of a nuanced analysis and hope that attitude becomes more widely accepted.

we should keep in mind that being "weird" (or even being "different") isn't always a choice, or at least not a conscious one

Not having a choice about it is a big deal. I liked being weird sometimes and certainly embraced it, sometimes perversely, but I always wished I could turn it on and off so I could take part in some of the normal social relations that other people enjoyed. (I was never an introvert. Just alone.) But you can't turn it on and off. Being weird means no practice at socializing, no confidence, and becoming accustomed to people reacting negatively to you -- an expectation that eventually handicaps your relationships with everyone you meet, even people you should be able to get along with. You can't act normal with someone even by your own standards until you get over the hump of anxiety and negative expectations that have become your default mode for relating to people.

Even if you meet someone who might be a good friend or girlfriend, you have no idea how to relate to somebody who doesn't think you're weird. By the time you've figured it out, the moment has passed. That happens a bunch of times before you've kind of figured out, through imagination and through study of other people's behavior, how to act with someone when you expect the encounter to be mutually pleasant. And later you realize it isn't a bad idea to act that way with most of the people you meet.

It becomes easier and easier, but now that I'm in my thirties and still have to make a little bit of an effort at the best of times, and I can regress ten years under the influence of stress, fatigue, or unfamiliar scenarios, I tend to forget there was ever a time when I enjoyed being weird and enjoyed being able to follow my own path on everything. Now I just take it for granted, and I catch myself assuming that everyone was always as free as I was. But I did benefit from embracing my weirdness.

nazgulnarsil• 14 years ago

well said, you don't get correct answers simply by reversing stupid ones.

emmelaich• 14 years ago

Yes, be happy to be different (as much as possible). But don't let it metastisize.

akmiller• 14 years ago

It's definitely an inspirational story in a way...but lets not be quick to call the other kids "losers".

We must remember that they are all kids just trying to find their way. Some kids find their way by trying their best to fit in while others might be like the kid in this story.

You can build this kid up while not tearing the others down. Even the kids who are popular and mean, like the girl he mentions in the story, may at an older age find some of the things they did in school reprehensible. Lets not condemn them while they are still young and immature.

navs• 14 years ago

It was the same for me in Fiji. I was into comics, computers, video games and not rugby. In Fiji, not liking rugby instantly makes you an outcast. 7 years later and I'm no better. All that loneliness led to insecurities that I have yet to shake. Now I work in a studio with a bunch of designers, photographers and on occasion, models and I feel as lonely as ever.

Hopefully in 10 years I can belong to a studio of amazingly weird, relatable people.

Lapsa• 14 years ago

reminds me one of xkcd comic: http://xkcd.com/610/

Exposure1012• 14 years ago

Haha, xkcd FTW!

g-garron• 14 years ago

Wow, that was a little long-post, but I enjoyed it a lot. It remembered my school days, I used to be interested in computers and physics and math. Usually others seek me because they needed help on homework. Yes you feel yourself a little weird, but then you grow up, and you realize that weird is also cool. If you enjoy being weird. Let's be weird, if you want to.

growt• 14 years ago

reminds me of this: http://www.viruscomix.com/page500.html

Exposure1012• 14 years ago

I'm glad there is still awesome people out there and thriving. I'm 25 and I still feel like the weird kid sometimes.

tzaman• 14 years ago

I wish someone explained it to me like this, back then.

chaostheory• 14 years ago

I like the essay as a whole, but there is one clue that struck me.

"Then one day, Mike got tired of my bullshit and said those words to me. "That's why you don't have any friends," he said at very high volume. He deserved to say it -- I'd just told him to go fuck himself when he tried to explain why my girlfriend at the time was screwing someone behind my back. I called him every name in the book."

It's not being weird that will make you a pariah; being an asshole does.

egonschiele• 14 years ago

If you read Daniel Goleman's Social Intelligence, he claims that being awkward will make you a bigger pariah than if you were just an asshole. Not sure how true that is. But I was certainly both awkward and weird in high school.

tehayj• 14 years ago

It is not about you or them being weird, it is about being real. If you are real you will get respect for that no matter what you are. You might not get respect from the "cool" group or the "geek" group but you will get respect from all those who would like to be like you but are not because they try to fit in.

kevinalexbrown• 14 years ago

I really identified with the article, and the author seems to have taken a reasonable course.

But I would not call all groups with social norms that differ from you 'losers' that 'lost the battle to be themselves.' The author's transformation seems like it had more to do with finding somewhere he fit the social norms than realizing any group that didn't want him was full of losers with no personality. After all, the author found a group in like-minded anime fanatics, and his group has its own norms regarding conversation:

The topics change -- what cars are best, what sports are better than other sports, what teams are better than other teams, what shows are better than other shows (but never politics or religion -- something you learn really fast in a gym is to never bring up the two topics most likely to incite violence in a building filled with metal bars and heavy plates).

Someone who walked in talking about the Talmud all the time probably wouldn't fit in.

And that's fine. It would just be sad if the kid, like a lot of nerds I've seen, unwittingly developed his own social norms, but was just as heart-breakingly rigid about them as the kids in his school.

frederico• 14 years ago

outstanding article; things ring so so true. Highschool is such a rough time with getting people singled out, and it's hard for those who are individuals.

Kudos to this guy for an outstanding talk to this kid; inspires hopefully many of us to share our experiences and reach out to younger kids we see.

rralian• 14 years ago

Yep, I was one of the brainiacs, socially awkward... not necessarily alone. More in the "activities" clique, which was by no means cool. I'm still pretty awkward, honestly. I'm either the life of the party or climbing the walls trying to get away from people. I have no middle ground.

Anyway, while I totally understand supporting this kid and letting him know there's nothing wrong with him, I'm not so sure it's healthy to feed the "us vs them" (or "me vs them") mindset either. Though I totally understand it. Yes, everyone is an idiot in high school. Even him. The "cool" kids aren't necessarily giving up their identity just to fit in. Maybe they just like the same things. But honestly they're probably not all that happy either. Everyone is miserable, and they're all pretty much idiots. I mean, you're in high school.

I think the important thing is to help build confidence (and importantly not arrogance, which is just a defense mechanism) in these kids. Find something they love to do and support them. Confidence is really the most attractive trait. Outside of just being super-hot, that is. :-)

My son is five years old now, and I can already see his social skills following his daddy's footsteps. I see the other kids talk to him when I drop him off for school, and he'll just ignore them and stand off by himself. It's not them or anything they're doing, it's his mindset. I would desperately like to help him avoid the some of the mistakes I made. I think I'm actually pretty hard on him because of this. And then I feel pretty awful myself.

Anyway, sorry for the verbose meandering comment... I've just been thinking through this stuff myself, so it's useful to write it out.

srconstantin• 14 years ago

I didn't have social trouble in high school, I had trouble in college. And that's something that I think goes unrecognized. Everybody knows about the crazy suburban high school experience, but a surprising number of my friends were severely unhappy in college. I can barely remember my freshman year -- I pretty much blocked it out. And I went to an Ivy League school. There was a kind of background noise level of callousness; people who were "different" in various ways were singled out for mockery in the school paper, people who were struggling were ostracized. And the undergrad culture was seriously misogynistic -- I accepted it as a given while I was there, but by the time I graduated I noticed I was advising girls not to go there if they had other options.

It's not just high school that can suck. Teenagers are immature, but there are other kinds of environments that can be stressful and isolating. And the advice is the same -- get through it, and then find a culture where you fit in better.

tlear• 14 years ago

There is a lot to learned and gained from learning how to deal with people. Becoming a hermit is not an achievement. Most people who "do not have friends" are not in that situation because they are something extra special and different snowflakes but because they have not learned how to communicate, empathize, follow simple social norms and perhaps even take shower time to time. Not being an ass usually gets you at least few decent friends.

iamsoreal• 14 years ago

This is a nice story but it makes everything seem too easy and I say this as someone who had a similar experience at secondary school. Even though it has been 7 years since it was over, I still relive it.

I was rarely bullied but I was almost completely ostracised for two years of my life. Before these years I had only a few friends and acquaintances. It's difficult to pinpoint any particular reason, but it was probably because I had truly awful brace treatments and that I was shy to the point of awkwardness; my geekyness and creativity could have been offset if I had been able to socially manouvre. To my detriment, my upbringing at home was fairly traditional and my parents believed that I should 'be a man'. I kept quiet. (They also didn't believe it was worth the money to buy me a school dinner so I could sit with everybody else, or drive me to friend's houses more than a couple of miles away... sigh)

To survive: I learnt to cope with silence, I learnt to be my own person, I learnt to concentrate on my hobbies, and I learnt self-control. However as the weeks passed and I 'stood strong' my actual thought patterns deteriorated. Weird fantasies of not existing or martyring myself crept into my mind, and I began to find it difficult to pay attention to school work or imagine a better future. My grades dropped from A/Bs to C/Ds. I was very depressed, and my upbringing and personality gave me little opportunity to get help. All the time this went on, people washed their hands of me, understanding me to be yet another introverted kid who was happy to be on his own. I suspect there is very little which could have helped me even if I had spoken out.

My point is that: a few days alone is uncomfortable, a few weeks unbearable, but a few months or years is traumatic.

But, I will tell you the upside. The stressful moments in your life generate the person you are. The old adage is true: "What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." and so one day I lay back and decided I would fix everything.

Few will understand: after a difficult life, all adversity is shallow. "Ethos Anthropos Daimon."

I destroyed my social anxiety. I gained back my self-confidence. I am driving myself like a machine to work and to educate myself.

But it is so difficult to atone, and I am off the beaten track with strong individualistic values, constantly striving to be more. While I can empathise with all that have struggled, who can empathise with me?

foobaar• 14 years ago

I had to register just to point out how dead-on accurate you are.

I was never bullied either because I became an expert at never being noticed. Camouflage is a fine defense mechanism if you're an octopus, but a human can't live that way indefinitely at the cost of his own individualism. Sooner or later you'll want to be noticed by potential friends and by the opposite sex. That "hide in the shadows" mentality which kept you alive through high school will start to work against you and the world will seem much smaller, colder and meaningless.

Any success you have in life gets attributed to dumb luck. The mind kills any thoughts of pride in your work. You see no point in meeting new people because "they won't like me anyway" or "I just won't know what to say," which does nothing but fulfill your self-inflicted prophecy. You feel nothing but the lows in life; if you're like me, you may have used drugs to simulate the highs. Thoughts of martyrdom become common after a couple of years because if your life is going to be meaningless then at least your death shouldn't be. This kind of thought process takes years to form and unfortunately just as long to destroy.

And after you succeed, you're still left with lingering thoughts about how many years you've wasted and how you'll never get them back. That particular demon is a serious little fucker because it's rooted in truth. If you've made it this far, though, then you've already faced worse.

I eventually saw the problem and rooted it out, but many people never will. Hopefully this kind of discourse gets through to a few of them.

sopooneo• 14 years ago

That sounds like a pretty good speech, but I can tell you from experience that the thing that will help kids most is listening to them. We tend to project whatever our frustrations were in childhood onto all struggling adolescents (and almost all adolescents are struggling) but the content of these heartfelt talks is much less important to the kid than being heard and knowing people care.

vectorpush• 14 years ago

Highschool is one thing, but don't let this advice fool you into believing that every subtle faux pas is a badge of honor. I know several brilliant "weird" people who have learned to love themselves but have simultaneously rejected the notion of managing their social quirks.

You know the kind I'm talking about; the knowledgeable but frustratingly pedantic and egotistical smart-ass who can't glance passed his own hubris to consider the lowly opinions of mere mortals, or the talkative engineer who spends 30 minutes every morning boasting about his cool personal projects in your office (completely oblivious to the social cues that say "stop talking, let us get back to work"), or the enthusiastic geek who alienates non-nerds by always steering the conversation to obscure technical topics that half the group has no interest or knowledge of.

Don't be ashamed of who you are, but don't let a headstrong attitude make you believe that it's never your own fault that others find your presence alienating.

skrebbel• 14 years ago

tl;dr: "has it ever occured to you that it's just everybody else's problem that they can't get along with you?"

davemel37• 14 years ago

My takeaway from this post is that, " You can really make a difference in someones life if you take a moment to empathize with their situation, and share a word or two of support."

I bet that kid will remember this speech for the rest of his life. I know, cuz I have my share of good and not-so-good memories from as young as a little boy to as recent as yesterday about how far a nice sympathetic and understanding word or two can go, and how damaging a cruel and dismissive comment can be.

We should all take a lesson from this. We are all human beings, and we all have commonalities we can empathize with and relate to in some capacity. It's all about perspective, and guess what... Perspective is all we have!

Use it at your discretion.

But remember, when that awkward weird boy changes the world one day, and looks back and says, "I was once in a gym hanging out with some older blokes, and one fellow gave me the confidence to be myself.I owe it all to him."

vikas5678• 14 years ago

I went through a similar phase during my high school years where I felt like I was weird and an outsider. When I was about to graduate, I found a gym, started working out and it changed my life. I feel happy for the kid in this story because he was at the gym, interacting with mature adults, and learning the discipline of weight training - great way to build a good foundation for his future.

sniperjoe• 14 years ago

After reading this article I am sure of one thing, he is not a minority. This existential crisis of "weirdness" he refers to is the luxury of those who are supposed to be normal.

dools• 14 years ago

Good story. As a side note: why do men have to be so mind numbingly boring? I had the misfortune of hanging out with a bunch of guys I didn't really know recently and the talk was similar to that described here (sports, women, avoidance of anything actually interesting like religion or politics). It was so boring I just left and went back to work.

As a gender, I think men have a lot to answer for in terms of conversation skills. Stop being so boring and predictable. Stop talking about sports as a habit.

zachsnow• 14 years ago

Hang out with different men, odds are they will talk about different things. Or, find sports and women more interesting.

It's quite unlikely that all men, everywhere, only talk about things that everyone really thinks are boring. It's also unlikely that everyone everywhere thinks discussing politics and religion is particularly interesting.

gaius• 14 years ago

You're probably missing all the implied and non-verbal stuff. It was probably really a conversation about philosophy couched in allegories and metaphors.

Tichy• 14 years ago

This message that you will get out of your small town and meet likeminded people is a big one. However, why wait miserable years? I think even in a small town there are on average enough freaks so that you don't have to be lonely. The question is how to find and activate them. Also, some socialization might be acceptable even for freaks, for example "normal" clothing, showering etc.

majmun• 14 years ago

If you are considered "wiered" that means you probably also lack the social competence to know what is the definition of word "friend". so don't wory as far as you know you may have many friends, but wrongly think that you dont have any. and your enemy may be your best friend. as far as you know.

Tsagadai• 14 years ago

I resonate with the article but I think the author only groks half the lesson.

And, "Fuck them" is rarely the solution.

It isn't being different, accepted, weird or yourself that is important. It is how well you can interact with other human beings. You can bang on about finding your niche or just being true to yourself but you are then following just another brand of conformity and group dynamics. The author himself realises this. He's in a gym, in this tale, with others he bonds with through social interaction and bonding (talking about sports, not pissing people off, joking about). What the author has stumbled upon is an understanding of the nuances of socialising and friendship.

I resonate with the post because like the author I was weird in school. I'm still weird as an adult. I had few friends (sometimes no friends) and would frequently fight. I was an outsider. Growing up didn't change many of those things (well, I don't have to live in a Lord-of-the-Flies style dystopia any more). Growing up helped me realise it isn't about who you think you are it is about how you interact with others.

I'm still an anti-social outsider but now I know how to make friends and get along with other people. Weirdness isn't something I wear as a badge of honour, it's just a factor of my personality. I can hide it to fit in. I can appear different to how I really am in order to get things done. You can be yourself, and you should with people you want to get close to. You have thousands of other people you will need to interact with to get things done, it is them that you have to be "less weird" for.

Now, I can bond with people who once upon a time would (and did) attack me on sight. Since then, I've sat around talking the gossip/sport/trivia/current events/reported speech topic that gets them excited over a beer or other social medium. Everyone loves to think there is some huge unfathomable difference between them and people that they don't get along with. There isn't, the only thing preventing you and anyone getting along is how well you can socialise.

It's the conclusion that I disagree with the author over. They are already practising the solution, his gym buddies are bonding with the kid and the kid seems to be learning. Most of us eventually learn how to interact with each other civilly, that's what growing up is about.

Eventually, almost all of us learn how to be part of one tribe or another. We are biologically programmed to find our tribe. So what's you favourite....

padobson• 14 years ago

The money line: You want to know what's weird? Hiding who you are just to have the company of people you don't even like. That's weird.

I was an athlete in high school, so early on I hung out with the athletes. Those in that group were not particularly enjoyable company, but I was too young to know what enjoyable company was.

When I finally stopped hanging out with athletes and took my proper place among the band geeks and drama nerds, that's when high school started to suck less (it always sucked, but it sucked a whole lot less when I discovered the type of people I liked being around).

Everyone needs validation. Everyone needs needs social acceptance. Everyone needs human affection. We're hard wired to require these things. But this can only truly come through introspection. You must conclude that you are a deeply flawed individual, and that those flaws don't separate you from your peers, but are actually the common ground.

The reason why you don't have any friends is because there is a failure to realize these common flaws. One side will often point this out: "You're weird. You're odd. You're not normal". Such phrases are not meant to affect any emotion in the target, but rather to hide the flaws of the speaker.

It is the truly enlightened individual that can recognize the speaker is as deeply flawed as they, and counter with affection and affirmation: "You're dead on. I'm crazy weird. You're beautiful/smart/funny/athletic, and I'm happy to be weird enough to say so"

How much better would high school be for everyone involved if high schoolers could just avoid going on the offensive to hide their own flaws, stop thinking about what makes them better than those around them in the ceaseless measuring of cocks, and start measuring and encouraging the best qualities in their peers?

Can such a (high school)world exist? I pray that it can.

mattiask• 14 years ago

Loved the story and it's very good advice indeed. I'd like to add one thing though. Having a "fuck them" or "they are losers" attitude (not saying the article advocates that) isn't really healthy. It might be great for a boosting your ego short term but it isn't constructive in the long run.

I don't think one should look down or harbor anger/resentment towards anyone. Not because it hurts them, but because it hurts you, and your happiness.

So my advice would be to try and understand why people act the way they do, why it probably is caused by some underlying problems/childhood whatever and if anything feel pity (so long it doesn't go into besserwisser territory) rather than resentment.

It's also great to be able to socialize with all kinds of people. They might not be exactly like you, they might not share all or any of your values but surely you can find something interesting in interacting and trying to understand them.

Another sign of personal growth is that you don't have to convince other people they're wrong or convert them to your views. If it's being discussed you can put front your opinion in a constructive manner and let it be up to them whether to agree or disagree. Also always be open minded about other people's viewpoints and try to understand where there coming from and if there might be something to it.

Sorry if I sounds a little fluffy or obivous but I feel that changing my own perspective on things like that has been very beneficial

zashapiro• 14 years ago

I really love this story. It's so incredibly hard to see the forest for the trees when you're that age.

I love PG's notion that some kids are playing the popularity game and others are playing an entirely different game, because they're being individuals and are learning or pursuing something they want, regardless of popularity.

huherto• 14 years ago

I am very late to this discussion, but I wanted to share my thoughts. I didn't like too much the advice of the article. I would have taken the opportunity to tell the kid about diversity, to appreciate the diversity of other people and specially his own. Observe that every body has strengths and weakness, that no one is perfect. Also, It can't be that everybody is an asshole. But even if they are, it is not his fault.

xxcode• 14 years ago

Never till I went to MIT did I not feel that I was weird. At MIT, it felt ok to be me. I was like that, and others were kinda like that, and we were good together.

"That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

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