Fire Me, I Beg You

http://robbieabed.com/fire-me-i-beg-you/

by robbiea • 14 years ago

234 65 14 years ago

robbieabed.com

jgmmo• 14 years ago

Interesting perspective. I can certainly relate, in one of those positions at this very moment...

stealthuser2• 14 years ago

I had the same exact feelings so ... I resigned last week. I am certainly excited about the future :) !

rwg• 14 years ago

All of the "if you're not happy and you know it, quit your job! clap clap" blog posts that make it onto Hacker News these days seem to whitewash or ignore some unpleasant realities.

I gave notice at my job of ten years last week, and I'm about as unexcited about the future as you can get. I've accumulated years of skill rot, self doubt, health problems, and straight up depression. I live in a part of the country with almost nothing in the way of a tech industry, so finding a better job will probably require moving to a strange new place. Despite having two years' gross in the bank and no debt, I constantly worry about ending up broke and on the street.

Going from "miserably employed" to "somewhat less miserably unemployed" to "happily employed" takes significantly more work than just walking away from a job, but talking about that isn't the sort of material that gets the pageviews.

joaquin_win• 14 years ago

I'm going through something similar, wish they fire me to be able to apply for employment insurance (http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/sc/ei/index.shtml) and "not work" (develop my own projects) for a while. But no, they love all the whizzy automation that I've created and have saved them month's of work.

nhashem• 14 years ago

This is actually a great mental exercise for determining if you're fundamentally unhappy at your current job. Just try and imagine your boss calling into a meeting like the one the OP describes and giving you some sort of, "your work has been good, but unfortunately we have to make some changes, and this will be your last day" speech, and imagine how you would feel.

If your reaction is something along the lines of relief, then you are fundamentally unhappy at your job. You have not only concluded that it is not a good situation, but that the situation is incapable of improving. It's likely only artificial mental restraints keep you from doing anything about it ("oh man I may have to move, moving is annoying... and I guess I get paid pretty well, most of my friends are making half what I do... and my boss said some things would change, although he said that months ago...") and those restraints aren't even that strong, otherwise you wouldn't be relieved if you got laid off.

orbitingpluto• 14 years ago

For me personally, starting to do this exercise already means I should already be halfway done planning my exit strategy.

hornbaker• 14 years ago

It's a useful exercise from the other direction, too. As an employer or manager, ask yourself how you'd feel if Employee X walked in your office and handed you their resignation. If your gut reaction is closer to relief than to horror, then terminate Employee X sooner rather than later.

keeptrying• 14 years ago

If you need to do exercises to figure out your unhappy then that should be sign enough. It means that you are battling layers of denial - not a good thing.

endtwist• 14 years ago

Those restraints are stronger than you think, in all honesty. Especially if you have any insecurity whatsoever about being able to find something else or make it on your own.

Once you can get beyond that insecurity, though, your feelings change entirely.

baddox• 14 years ago

I'm not sure if that mental exercise is something I would trust for myself. I'm extremely satisfied with my job, but when I run through the exercise of imagining myself getting fired, there's a reflexive twinge of excitement about what I would do if I were immediately thrown into such a scenario.

I don't think that I could conclude form this that I'm "secretly unhappy" with my job. I think it's my innate longing for wayfaring adventure, even unwise and irresponsible adventure, that I constantly have to reign in to keep myself productive. It's excitement I imagine feeling, not relief, and in reality I'm sure anxiety would accompany (even drown out) the excitement.

duodecim• 14 years ago

I would do well to remember this, and not just professionally.

kaens• 14 years ago

The most important thing, of course, is knowing yourself.

I mean, I have that same twinge about a lot of things, and I had identified it as something I need to evaluate instead of acting on immediately. This lead to me sticking in a position way too long (I actually only recently resigned), and becoming utterly miserable.

The line is fuzzy, but there was definitely a point at my last position where I would have been premature in leaving. I would say, however, that the appropriate point to leave would have been right around the time when relief would have been my primary reaction to being let go.

If you haven't been in that situation, it's a bit hard to relate the feeling, but it's definitely it's own class of "positive", not like the "excitement of reacting to the immediate and having to think on ones feet" feeling at all.

I personally think that the biggest problem with this approach is that you have to remember to do it. The "fundamentally unhappy" situations tend to sneak up on you as you get into that weird cycle of going to work and doing the dance being prioritized higher up on the list than your long-term mental health. It's hard to stay in the moment.

bbwharris• 14 years ago

Same here. It would open up doors that were once shut. It makes the possibilities seem limitless.

It's also a challenge to prove something.

xpose2000• 14 years ago

I was in that position as well, and I had no choice but to quit my job. I even got a 15k raise and that still wasn't enough. My old boss once said that more money won't make you happy, it simply makes you less unhappy.

When you don't care anymore it's a sign that it's time to move on.

I work on my own start-up now. Sure I don't make as much, and I work odd hours, but it's fulfilling.

emp_• 14 years ago

I my case I do care a lot of what is being built, what are the expectations of our customers and how happy they are, but I don't give a fuck to the people working with me right now, I don't care about them -- are those you meant?

cydonian_monk• 14 years ago

That's just a sign of a good work ethic. I'm a bit of the same - I've never really cared for the corporate atmosphere where I work (or for being inside all day), but I'll defend what I've built to the grave.

nhangen• 14 years ago

This is so true. Once got a 10k raise, and while it definitely made me less unhappy, it still didn't mask the fact that my boss was a moron and I was never going to get what I wanted out of the job.

Problem is that I cared for far too long...I don't know any other way.

jmjerlecki• 14 years ago

Pretty good comment on that article, resonated with me:

"When you have to make a hard decision, flip a coin.

Why?

Because when that coin is in the air, you suddenly know what you're hoping for."

nathanbarry• 14 years ago

I do something like this. When I am not sure I flip a coin and then judge my reaction to the outcome. Often I will learn what I "secretly" want.

slavak• 14 years ago

I've been using this method since elementary school. It's funny to see someone mention something that seemed like such a "private trick."

FuzzyDunlop• 14 years ago

This reminds me of a particular scene in the last season of Breaking Bad. Not to spoil it, but it resonated with me then.

tseabrooks2• 14 years ago

This line was in an episode of Boardwalk Empire Season 2 that just finished airing.

zem• 14 years ago

the idea is older than him, but piet hein put it into verse very nicely:

    A PSYCHOLOGICAL TIP

    Whenever you're called on to make up your mind,  
      and you're hampered by not having any,  
    the best way to solve the dilemma, you'll find,  
      is simply by spinning a penny.  
    No -- not so that chance shall decide the affair  
      while you're passively standing there moping;  
    but the moment the penny is up in the air,  
      you suddenly know what you're hoping.

ChuckMcM• 14 years ago

This was a great quote for me as well.

A mentor once advised me when I was in the manager roll of deciding to lay off or not lay off someone, to write on the board two columns, "pros" and "cons". Then write the first one that came to mind (either pro or con) and that was the decision. If the first thing you thought of was what was a real benefit then keep them, if the first thing you thought of was a consequence, then lay them off. The theory is that you have already ordered and prioritized the pros and cons for this if you've been thinking about it, and you naturally order them in your thinking in magnitude. So doing the physical action pulls that ordering out of your brain and into the open.

AsylumWarden• 14 years ago

I just flip the coin and then do the opposite of whatever it says because, in my mind, it is just a stupid coin and will naturally make the worst decision. So far so good... one day I may meet a smart coin and regret this method though.

tjoff• 14 years ago

"Because when that coin is in the air, you suddenly know what you're hoping for."

Sounds waay too easy. The one you are hoping for depends not on what is the best decision but rather in you.

And for many I'd imagine that the one they are hoping for happen to be the decision that has the best short-term benefits.

Most hard decisions are hard because of uncertainties and those don't become clear because of a coin flip. And even if you find yourself hoping for something doesn't mean that that is the right thing to do but just as much as what else you want to escape.

Making the right decision is often hard, hoping isn't.

arupchak• 14 years ago

Another good mental technique is to think about the work week or period ahead of you after doing something you enjoy. If you find that the thought of it makes you irritated or unhappy, you need to immediately stop and figure out why. Is it the project you are working on? Is it your manager? Is it your team? Is it the company?

Whatever it is, it always warrants a serious conversation with your manager. Ideally, it is something within your or your manager's control.

Karellen• 14 years ago

I've heard it as, if it comes out the way you want, you'll have no problems with that. OTOH, if you catch yourself thinking "best two out of three", then you know what you want.

dstywho• 14 years ago

What if your boss reads Hacker News?...Success!

andrewflnr• 14 years ago

They did wait to post it until they had already quit.

WiseWeasel• 14 years ago

If you've got no immediate prospects, and you can hold on a bit, you might try waiting for your next evaluation, and when they ask what you see yourself doing in five years, answer with something in a completely different industry. Then, maybe you'll get laid off with a chance of collecting unemployment, so you don't need to rush into another job that might not be right for you.

ja27• 14 years ago

It's amazing that most bosses don't realize / don't care about the reaction they'll get from sending a meeting invite like that. That's not a sign that you're working for an A player.

tseabrooks2• 14 years ago

Yes. I'm currently at a small shop and when my boss scheduled my 90 day review he realized he hand't mentioned there'd be such a thing so he walked over to my office after scheduling it and said, "Hey, I don't want you to freak out about the review... you're doing fine... we love your work.. we just wanna talk about stuff in depth".

EREFUNDO2• 14 years ago

Since my team and I started working on our startup and build our product, I actually began to like the fact that I hated my day job. It energized me to work harder into getting our project launched and have people use it in the real world. Finance is just not for me. I want to build and create things...much more fulfilling!

yangtheman• 14 years ago

Oh, man. I was in almost exact same situation last week!

I also quit, about a week later, and I am so much happier. I really had to think about whether this is something I want to do or this is the company where I really want to work. Now I am free to explore many different options, and plus, I can concentrate on finding what I want, rather than trying to complete the tasks at work and look at the same time. It helps that I was able to get small severance pay.

Kudos, though. It's certainly not easy to leave without anything lined up. It wasn't an easy decision for me, either, when you have families to feed. But, I am definitely happier with my decision.

It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything ~ Tyler Durden

jczhang• 14 years ago

I've done this before, but let me know how you feel in 2 weeks.

EREFUNDO2• 14 years ago

If getting a raise or promotion does not motivate you anymore then you should plan your exit strategy soon. You were born to be an entrepreneur. Simple as that....

alexlumley• 14 years ago

Very scary to think of how long you can go in life doing something that you don't want to do, if you never think about what you secretly wished happend. SHIVERS.

aen• 14 years ago

Resonates with me.

webjprgm• 14 years ago

Any advice for a guy with a risk-adverse wife and not enough money in the bank to go the startup route, but who does secretly want to get fired? Also, the company I work at is quite nice, it's just the job I'm doing isn't what I love. But I don't know if I like large corporate life very well and I do know that I like small company environment. Startup environment maybe (difference between small vs. startup is urgency and energy).

My current manager convinced me, last time I asked, to stay through current project completion. He gave me a raise and promised raving reviews. He also says I should definitely stay in the company. So I have an easy career path. I just don't know that I want it. Actually, I'm pretty sure I don't want it, but I won't know that until I try the other way, I just don't have the money in the bank to afford the other way.

Sorry about personal sidetracking. Great post, and certainly made me think about my situation again. At the very least, the mindset of "Fire Me, I Beg You" can be a great bargaining tool.

robbiea• 14 years ago

shoot me an email (it's in my profile), and we can have a good chat. anyway which I can help.

wildmXranat• 14 years ago

Way to draw a detailed scenario to which, I unfortunately have no advise for. Having said that, it resonates with a lot of what I hear in my personal circles.

In your situation, I would talk to my wife. Assure her that my professional life deserves a change and after which, follow through very carefully. First, find out what it is I need to be happy. Is it money, distance to work, workplace dynamic or maybe my own business. Itemising the collective of what works for me, will give me a sense of following up with my goals. I can attack them one at a time. I don't want to feel pressured to change based on any findings, but I don't want to shelve them away as well. It's kind of like making a pact with myself about a life-changing, 180 deg turnaround, and then getting a sandwich,- and forgetting about it.

Once I have an idea of what and where I want to be, I'd start by being honest with myself: can I pull it off. Baby step into it by setting aside minimal amount of daily time to find out how I'll get it all done. For example, if my path leads me to making my first mobile game, I'll go to the book store. Research what kids games are easy to port and estimate my time. "Tic tac toe" for instance would be a good first candidate. Do a shitty, but honest effort to get something done. Rinse and repeat, but improve a bit with every iteration. I would attempt to join online groups, find related groups on G+, FB, etc. If I find myself loosing interest, re-evaluate if I really can keep up with the expectations.

And then there's my current albeit hypothetical job. If above makes me happy enough, why quit. If you still loathe it, reapply your spent time to looking for new job and call a meeting for tomorrow at 8am with your boss.

capsule_toy• 14 years ago

This is really hard to say without knowing what exactly you mean by going the startup route and what exactly it is you want. There are companies that are profitable, have a small company mentality, have exciting challenges, but are certainly not startups any more. They don't have the same urgency, but a lot of that urgency comes from the high risk inherent in just being a startup.

Chances are you'll have to make compromises. Find out the most important things to you and figure out how to get there while balancing other considerations, like the amount of risk you can actually take.

enneff• 14 years ago

Your "risk-averse wife" should consider the risk of having an unhappy and resentful husband in a few years' time. As a couple, her happiness is entwined with yours, and vice-versa; neither will be content until both are.

If you feel you are on the wrong track - and it seems you have quite soundly arrived at this conclusion - start hunting around.

sopooneo• 14 years ago

I've got some advice there. Volunteer with inner city youth. You will be so jaw-droppingly stunned about how horrible your life isn't that every day on Earth will seem like a gift from heaven no matter what your job.

nirvana• 14 years ago

I think the solution to your problem is relatively easy. You want something different, but your wife won't sign off on it in advance, because she's reasonably concerned about making ends meet.

The solution to this is to get the opportunity lined up before presenting it to your wife, and without quitting your current job (which by the way, has a time bomb sitting on it - your boss had to convince you to stay so they might be lining up a replacement for you already. Really depends on the nature of that relationship and company.)

If you really want to work for a startup, find some well funded ones, go interview with them (take long lunch breaks or a few personal days) and get some job offers at %120 of your current salary. Your wife will have trouble turning down a raise from a company that you really want to work for.

Most companies want "recommendations" but this is a legally dangerous situation anyway (even a positive recommendation opens the recommender up to legal liability for not being positive enough.) Most people will understand that your current employer cannot give a recommendation and when they ask about them, don't badmouth your current employer just say they're good but they can't give you what you need.

Anyway, that's how I'd approach it. If working for a startup means you'd have to move somewhere else, then you might look into the possibility of getting another corporate job, but in a startup hub, relocating there for a few years before making the switch to a startup.

droithomme• 14 years ago

For competent people, getting fired is awesome as it always means a big pay raise.

At most jobs I carry a letter of resignation with me at all times, ready to be handed over at any moment. This practice really helps take the edge off of many situations, since I don't see any situation as anything I have to put up with, which seriously reduces the angst and depression that I encountered from feelings of futility and hopelessness from "situations beyond my control" before I adopted the practice. Now I know that all situations are under my control as far as my own choice to be involved at all is concerned, and likewise, others are responsible for their own decisions and happiness.

thejteam• 14 years ago

I think I'm going to type one of these out this weekend. I really could have used it this past December.

Luyt• 14 years ago

Carrying around such a letter is analogous to always being prepared to walk away from a negotiation. Which you must always be, otherwise it'll seriously undermine your position.

javert2• 14 years ago

For competent people, getting fired is awesome as it always means a big pay raise.

Can you explain this?

Lazare2• 14 years ago

Sure.

When you are hired, you can negotiate a salary $X based on your skills, the company's needs, the job market, and a whole host of factors.

At each pay review period (or however your firm does it) thereafter you may get a salary increase of Y%. The realities of corporate politics, management, social dynamics, etc. say that the frequency of the review (or if you even get one) is mostly out of your control. Further, the amount of the increase may have little to do with you; maybe there's "no room in the budget for increases this quarter", or maybe your manager is giving you poor evaluations to try and keep you from being promoted out of his department thus reducing his headcount. Finally, there is a force in almost every organization that says that salary should be based on seniority not merit. There may be pay grades, or salary caps, and there is almost always some limit on the size of the raise any person can get without a top exec signing off on it. I could go on. :)

Meanwhile, you (hopefully!) have more knowledge and skills than when you were hired; you certainly have more experience. After a few years, you are almost certainly worth a lot more than when you were hired. (If the job market has improved since you were hired, this goes triple.)

The end result is that, for most people, your salary represents a pretty good snapshot of your "worth" when you are hired, but every quarter thereafter it diverges. Changing jobs periodically lets the good employees "lock in" that extra value. (Meanwhile the poor employees will do their utmost to stay, as they know they may not deserve all of the raises they've received. This is but one of many reasons why organizational performance trends downwards over time.)

You'd think that you could just renogotiate with your current employer. "Hey, I know I was only worth $60k when you hired me, but I'm now an expert on X, Y, and Z, and the job market is really hot right now. I know you've upped my salary to $90k, but you'd have to pay over $140k to replace me. Give me a raise or I'll go next door and get $120k." Seems logical, but human nature being what it is, this never works. Instead, you quit and go to work next door for $120k, while one of their guys quits his $90k job and comes to work at your old employer for $120k. Of course, both of you are now less productive for the next 6 months as you learn new systems and a new codebase. It's silly, but there you are.

gnosis• 14 years ago

I've read that the average pay raise from the company you're already working for is about 10%.

While the average increase in salary when you start a new job is about 20%.

I think the differences are usually even more dramatic near the beginning of most people's careers. Entry level employees tend to be extremely underpaid and undervalued.

With at least one year of experience under your belt, your worth on the job market is significantly higher than someone who's fresh out of college. But the company with which you've been working at since college rarely sees it that way, and tends to undervalue you. If you switch jobs, you are almost guaranteed a significantly higher salary -- even more so with two or three years under your belt.

In my own case, I managed to more than double my salary in about three years of job hopping about once a year at the start of my career. Of course, simple math will tell you you can't keep that sort of thing for long (unless you're one of the few to win the career lottery and make C__ at a successful company). So eventually your salary increases will start to plateau, and you might even price yourself out of the job market entirely -- making your current job (the one willing to pay top market rates) that much more valuable for you to keep. But when you're just starting out, and even in the middle of your career, this won't be much of a concern.

mjwalshe2• 14 years ago

"Fired" means you have been sacked for a small number or serious offenses and could never be considered "awesome" - I think you mean made redundant.

mjwalshe2• 14 years ago

Voted down for this FFS am I the only person on HN with any knowledge of HR and IR issues.

fogol• 14 years ago

hmm, this story has more to it than it says: no boss of mine ever sent me meeting invite at 2am and for next morning. Other games afoot there, and it might explain why he dreaded his workplace.

michaelochurch• 14 years ago

Any manager who uses "catch up" for a firing meeting is just a bad person.

You don't put a firing meeting on the calendar. Why would you?

The bad managers make messes for people like OP's manager, who really was working at face value.

steveh73• 14 years ago

She set up a meeting at 2am? And you were awake and checking your work email at the time? You should have quit a long time before then.

guelo• 14 years ago

It's better to be fired if you've been there a while. You can then collect unemployment for a few months and be really picky. I've actually never been fired but have felt like a sucker when a colleague was fired at the same time I quit and he was getting unemployment while I had nothing. Though you probably need some solid references to make up for a firing.

Fire Me, I Beg You

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