Developers are building communities that act as their own miniature power grids

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/07/realestate/microgrid-solar-power-energy.html

by mhb • 3 years ago

187 243 3 years ago

haspoken• 3 years ago

Fascinating read! Microgrids and solar energy hold immense potential for a sustainable future. Exciting to witness these advancements shaping our energy landscape.

electrondood• 3 years ago

Tesla's Powerwall + Virtual Power Plant software allow individuals to profit from arbitraging electricity prices while doubling as a distributed energy grid. Combine that with Megapacks (buffer battery arrays for municipalities) and you've got a distributed energy grid that absorbs load effectively, and makes money for its participants..

mikeyouse2• 3 years ago

My friend lives in a small neighborhood north of SF in Marin County, but down a small road that frequently washes out. They were constantly losing power and would be down for days if not longer during big storms that drop a lot of limbs and wash the road out. Rather than deal with the urgency of restoring power to them and all that entailed, PG&E just installed a Powerwall in every house. Many of the houses already had solar so now when the main power line is cut, they can go for days/weeks and live relatively normally. Batteries are going to make a lot of things much easier.

Scoundreller4• 3 years ago

And in a sane world, few would have a physical internet connection unless you’re really pushing serious data (which probably doesn’t need to be from home anyway).

I’ve toyed with shutting my router and modem at night on a timer because it’s a waste of 15-20w of electricity for nothing.

YeBanKo4• 3 years ago

Did PGE pay for powerwall and installation?

usefulcat• 3 years ago

To give some idea of the arbitrage potential, in Texas right now the price is usually $20-$30 / MWh for much of each day, but rises into the hundreds or even low thousands during times of peak demand, usually for 4-6 hours each day. This pattern is very common during the hottest ~4 months of the year.

https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/systemwideprice...

jwr2• 3 years ago

This content is not on the internet. Can I also submit links to any local site that requires a subscription in order to view the article? Or does this specific site get an exception?

krastanov• 3 years ago

Yes, you can submit any local site with a paywall. For what is worth, it is part of the "community guidelines" for HN to not complain about paywalls (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html ). Someone will probably post a pirated archive link shortly (edit: they already have).

hinkley9• 3 years ago

Part of the community guidelines that we aren’t allowed to discuss is censorship.

I get that we don’t want to spiral on discussing things, but can’t discuss them at all is draconian.

bee_rider3• 3 years ago

I’m perpetually surprised this otherwise mostly legit site is OK with us sharing links to pirated material.

jwr2• 3 years ago

I think it is time to reconsider these guidelines. I believe that this community should stand for freely accessible information on the Internet. As it is, we are being gamed: we are used to upvote and popularize content behind paywalls. The owners do not make it freely available, but still get the benefits of the community.

I have nothing against paywalls and paid content (in fact, I subscribe to news publications myself), but I believe they have no place on HN. Either it's on the Internet, or it isn't.

notpushkin• 3 years ago

It's ok to post stories from sites with paywalls that have workarounds. In comments, it's ok to ask how to read an article and to help other users do so.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html

barbazoo• 3 years ago

Then why not post the workaround in the first place I wonder.

Alternatively an ignorelist of domains would be nice.

peoplearepeople• 3 years ago

https://txtify.it/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/07/realest...

louwrentius• 3 years ago

Better Title: Microgrids Are Giving Power to Rich People

franl2• 3 years ago

Rich is obviously very relative, but for many reading on this site, $300-400k is a reasonable home price (the price cited in the article). And the couple in the article paid even less. “The couple, who paid in the low $200,000s for their 1,350-square-foot, three-bedroom home, moved into the community last July.”

comrh• 3 years ago

North Carolina in case anyone else is curious

WarOnPrivacy• 3 years ago

> Better Title: Microgrids Are Giving Power to Rich People
but for many reading on this site, $300-400k is a reasonable home price

You're restating "rich people" as "Many reading on this site". Why not just say rich people?

ZeroGravitas2• 3 years ago

It's mildly ironic that one of the drivers of solar, battery and EV uptake in the US is private individuals responding to the fallability of the grid and planning for when their connection fails.

toomuchtodo2• 3 years ago

Grid fragility leads to distributed resilience while driving down the cost of the tech you mentioned as volume ramps. Innovation cannibalism. Systems working as intended.

hinkley9• 3 years ago

Reduced load is reduced funding which leads to poor people dying in heat wave.

fabiofzero• 3 years ago

Power companies should be the ones proposing, subsidising and installing these to replace traditional power grids.

Of course it will never happen because "iT hURtS tHe boTToM lInE" and "fIDuCiaRy oBlIGatION" but this is the way.

Johnythree4• 3 years ago

In Australia the people once owned their own power grid.

But then successive governments bought into the Neo-Liberal scam and sold it to their mates.

And (of course) any investment in new technology promptly stopped, and prices have (of course) risen dramatically.

If we had maintained community ownership of our power generation, the old style Coal powered generators would have gradually given way to Solar and Wind power, as the technology increasingly became more efficient and affordable. It would have been so painless and progressive that we would have barely noticed it.

nathancahill• 3 years ago

Highly recommend reading "The Grid: The Fraying Wires Between Americans and Our Energy Future" if this is your cup of tea.

reacharavindh2• 3 years ago

Haven’t read the article because it is behind a paywall. Based on the title, I have a comment. I hope the battery tech catches up fast that we can have safe (one that is not vulnerable to runaway fire even at as low probability as LFP batteries of today are), and also hold about 50KwH of energy so as to serve as an effective buffer for most households.

hinkley9• 3 years ago

This story of decentralization has played out before. The hazard is that private grid infrastructure becomes affordable by the upper class, they stop soliciting politicians to maintain infrastructure. Once the middle class can afford it, then the votes evaporate, and the lower class is absolutely fucked. A half rotten water supply or electric grid becomes fully rotten every time there’s stress on the system.

Phasing out natural gas in new construction is going to cause this passion play in slow motion. Have you priced out induction stoves? Phew.

franl2• 3 years ago

What are some examples of this type of decentralization scenario playing out before? What you’re saying makes sense to me, but my hope would be that the decentralization would serve more as a supplement than a replacement - therefore still requiring ongoing maintenance and investment to main infra. The alternative without these microgrids and other microinfra is almost guaranteed to result in the half or fully rotten systems you predict as the prevailing recent political climate doesn’t give much confidence in terms of getting such massive projects planned and completed successfully (US-centric response).

polygamous_bat• 3 years ago

What are some examples of this type of decentralization scenario playing out before?

I am not very knowledgeable about this, but the public/private school debate seems to be one possibility.

burkaman6• 3 years ago

Phasing out natural gas in new construction is going to cause this passion play in slow motion. Have you priced out induction stoves? Phew.

More than two thirds of US households already have electric stoves, and normal non-induction electric stoves are about the same price as gas ones. A ban on gas stoves would only affect rich people for the most part.

DoingIsLearning• 3 years ago

A ban on gas stoves would only affect rich people for the most part.

And professional kitchens.

For the record I agree with phasing them out but I can see restaurant chefs fighting hard against it.

bluGill6• 3 years ago

Indication stoves are claimed to be as good as gas. However the cheapest induction stove in the US is 3x the price of the cheapest gas or electric. And if you go stove shopping you with find lots of options for gas or regular electric, but often only one induction model - if you want some combination of features and are willing to pay - you often still can't get it with induction. (dual ovens, number of burners, burner configuration, non-standard widths - there are lots of options that are at least interesting to someone who is cooking)

terribleperson2• 3 years ago

When it comes to cooking, non-induction electric stoves are a downgrade from gas stoves, even if they're the same price. Induction stoves are at least an upgrade in some respects, but a downgrade in terms of cookware compatibility. Phasing out gas stoves might be the future, but I wouldn't describe it as something that only affects rich people.

edgyquant• 3 years ago

Sounds like it would effect 1/3 of US households

YeBanKo4• 3 years ago

Moving from gas stove to induction electric stove is trivial. Upgrading from water and space heater to heat pump is neither simple nor cheap.

maliker4• 3 years ago

When solar was becoming affordable, there was a lot of talk in the industry about "grid defection" exactly as you describe, but it didn't come to pass.

Now that energy storage is getting radically cheaper too, I think there's a decent chance that what you predict could happen. It would be... enormously bad.

And I agree load growth plays a part in all this. The big growth will come from electric vehicles--once cars are all electric, that will roughly double the electricity demand.

hadlock• 3 years ago

Roofs generally last for 30 years. In my neighborhood at least, which was all built-out in a 3 year period in the mid-1970s, most of the roofs were replaced about 10-15 years ago (they're rated for 30 years, but everyone pushes their luck as far as possible). Because they replaced their roof pre-~2014 it wasn't cheap or common to do so and thus very little solar was installed at that point.

Those who have had their roof replaced in the last 5-7 years went ahead and put solar on top. My guess would be that when the neighborhood "cycles" through new roofs again in ~15 years, more than half will elect to put in solar or solar/battery combo. We are due for a new roof in 2-3 years and plan on doing solar at that time, and possibly even battery.

ZeroGravitas2• 3 years ago

The 2022 Inflation Reduction Act has provisions where low-income households can get an electric or electric induction stove fully reimbursed, up to $840. Middle-income households can get half the price of the stove reimbursed.

Apparently, individual states have to do stuff, so it might be like the medicaid expansions where some states opt out of providing stuff for poor people to make a political point.

thegaulofthem• 3 years ago

opt out of providing stuff for poor people to make a political point.

I would certainly hope my state isn’t giving out tax-payer funded luxury stoves.

There is no such thing as “free” here.

arcticbull4• 3 years ago

Off-topic but I just don't get why we means-test this. So what if 1% of Americans get $840 so long as the other 99% also get $840 towards a new stove. Surely the cost of means testing and administration is more than 1%?

tzs3• 3 years ago

So far I believe only one state has opted out, Florida. It's not really comparable to opting out of expanded Medicaid because at least with expanded Medicaid a state could make a somewhat colorable non-political argument for not participating.

Under the ACA Medicaid expansion the federal government covered 90% of the cost and the state covered 10% of the cost. I believe some of the states claimed that they could not afford that 10%.

With the energy efficiency rebates under the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL) each state has to administer the rebates for that state's consumers, but the allows the states to use a portion of their gran for for the cost of that, including hiring staff.

So basically a state just has to apply, get the administrative money to cover setting up a program to distribute the rebates, then get their share of the IRA and BIL money and distribute it.

In Florida deSantis used his veto to block authorization for the state to get and use the $5 million portion of their grant that would be for administration and so Florida residents will not be getting the $174 million in energy efficiency improvement rebates, or the $173 million in appliance rebates, or the $7 million for a training program for electrification contracts, or other smaller grants from those laws. All in all, Florida is turning down $377 million.

deSantis has not given a reason, but it is likely part of his "Fight Back Against the Woke Agenda" theme he's basing his campaign on. Reducing emissions and increasing energy efficiency is "woke" in current far right circle.

Other recent actions taken in his fight against "woke"ness are tax breaks for purchasing gas stoves and killing a bill that would have directed state agencies to consider lifetime cost of ownership when purchasing cars.

mschuster918• 3 years ago

Phasing out natural gas in new construction is going to cause this passion play in slow motion. Have you priced out induction stoves? Phew.

Two things here. For one, natural gas has to be removed from the market as the supply of gas is finite, it's bound to raise in price anyway due to CO2 taxes, it emits toxic particulates associated with lung disease, it's more efficient to run a heat pump than burn any kind of fossil fuel, and it's a major fire/explosion hazard particularly when maintenance is neglected.

The other side is, if you're worried about electricity going down, you can always grab a gas cylinder for a camping stove and live off of that for a week and more - personally, I have an Enders Explorer portable grill that can double as a stove and two 5kg cylinders of gas, mostly to run outdoor BBQs but also usable in case of a prolonged grid outage.

tick_tock_tick• 3 years ago

natural gas has to be removed from the market as the supply of gas is finite

I'd drop this argument your other points are good but while gas might technically be finite it's not on any timescale that matters here.

bluGill6• 3 years ago

If you worry about electricity going down you can buy a portable generator powerful enough to run at least some of the stove. Odds are you have never had your electric stove using the full power it can in theory consume (all burners on high and the oven heating), so long as your actual use is less than the stove needs this works.

Heat pumps are great, but it sometimes gets cold enough where I live that they are less efficient than a modern gas furnace. (not every year, but still often enough that I need to plan on those days or my pipes will freeze)

pictureofabear2• 3 years ago

Banning natural gas appliances doesn't stop natural gas production. It's a byproduct of oil production. Fly over any oil field, and you'll see natural gas being burned as a waste product everywhere. Only when natural gas prices go up do oil companies start capturing it to sell.

Kon-Peki2• 3 years ago

the lower class is absolutely fucked

Is it ironic that the technology is being developed and tested in poor neighborhoods? [0]

Honghao Zheng, an analytics manager for Chicago's electric company, ComEd, described the microgrid as the seed of something bigger. Moving from a centralized energy model to a decentralized one is the goal, he said.
Zheng said what's novel about the Bronzeville project is that this grid, unlike others, is not a "one-way street" of power — it's designed to be able to "cluster" with other microgrids, such as the one at the nearby Illinois Institute of Technology. Later this year ComEd plans to test the grids' "island" function, meaning its ability to disconnect from the larger grid.
"This is only a starting point," Zheng said. "We are also thinking about how to expand this kind of innovative technology."

A microgrid as it's known right now disconnects itself into an island that provides power for everything inside of it when the larger grid goes down. But what they're building now is a cluster of microgrids such that one microgrid can send its excess power to neighboring microgrids so they all have power. If this all works out then the rich folks aren't simply isolating themselves, they are also providing resiliency to their less-fortunate neighbors.

[0] https://www.businessinsider.com/chicago-bronzeville-neighbor...

bratgpttamer• 3 years ago

Until someone introduces a bidding mechanism, anyway.

"Man, we had no power for DAYS and I only got $14.75 from that stupid electric grid thing"

s1artibartfast6• 3 years ago

This is what happens when general public service infrastructure becomes so bloated and ineffectual that even at huge scale it can not compete with small scale alternatives.

At some point it becomes more efficient to put in a natural gas/water/electric storage in your back yard than pay for public service delivery.

eldaisfish3• 3 years ago

This is needlessly dramatic and negative.

The electric grid is what it is today because several problems can only be addressed at scale. There is no way that individuals will accept all the reliability, maintenance and risk that comes with running their own electrical infrastructure. More importantly, location is a very important metric here.

I always feel that comments on solar or renewable energy on this site come from a California-centric perspective. In almost all regions of the planet, power generation at scale provides security, resilience, stability, reliability and other metrics that are always superior to smaller, individual power generation sources.

pictureofabear2• 3 years ago

You're citing a separate problem... the lack of representation for the lower class. This has nothing to do with decentralization.

throw109202• 3 years ago

This story of decentralization has played out before.

Citation needed.

This reads just like a really strong defense of centralized systems, ignoring the robustness and economic benefits of a decentralized grid, purely to push a political agenda.

coderenegade• 3 years ago

I'm willing to bet most people on here have never actually experienced living with decentralized infrastructure, and only have an abstract understanding of what it entails. I live on the edge of a state forest where the only centralized service we have is electricity (we still have solar). We have gas bottles for cooking and hot water, and when one runs out we switch it over and get it replaced. For sewerage we get the septic tank pumped, and for water we collect rainwater. If we have a dry year or use too much, we have to pay for water cartage. If the pump goes down, I'm either fixing it myself or paying someone else to fix it on short notice.

Now, I chose this and it's how I grew up, so I wouldn't have it any other way. But the beauty of centralized systems is that they offset these burdens to an authority that handles all of that for you. If I were unable to pay for a new pump, well, I would have no water. A centralized system paid for by taxes guarantees that everyone will always have access to water under fairly mild conditions.

The failure of centralized systems and people resorting to locally decentralized solutions isn't indicative of decentralized solutions being better, but more a failure of governance and bureaucracy. I mean, there's a reason we all moved from decentralized systems (like getting water from a well) to centralized systems in the first place. That's not to say that decentralized anything doesn't also have advantages, only that the distinction really matters, and people should be sure of what it is they're advocating for when they want to decentralize infrastructure like electricity and water that are vital for survival.

archi42• 3 years ago

Natural gas stoves are unhealthy[1]. Poor people already have worse health than rich people for a multitude of reasons [2]. So if more poor people get access to places with electrical stoves, their health improves.

I only looked at walmart.com: Cheapest gas stove was 122US$, cheapest induction 222US$. If the 100US$ difference is relevant, you're neither building a house nor looking to rent an apt without a kitchen anyway.

[1] https://www.google.com/search?q=natural+gas+stove+health [2] https://www.google.com/search?q=health+of+poor+people e.g. https://health.gov/healthypeople/priority-areas/social-deter...

gottorf• 3 years ago

It's unhelpful to link to Google searches as sources; the first page of results is usually just news or blog articles very thin on facts.

The risks to health of natural gas stoves (basically, just the production of NO2 and particulate matter) are almost all due to insufficient ventilation. Houses will need more and better (active) ventilation going forward anyway, as increasing insulation standards for homes mean they don't "breath" as much as they used to. So there's other ways to mitigate those health risks that don't involve banning something that many people enjoy using.

Poor people as a whole indeed do have overall worth health than rich people, but switching to electric stoves won't move the needle almost at all. Gas stoves are most linked to pediatric asthma[0], but in terms of stuff that affect poor people more than rich people, that's hypertension, arthritis, smoking, and obesity[1], none of which care what kind of stove you cook with at home.

[0] https://rmi.org/gas-stoves-health-climate-asthma-risk/

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2016/16_0088.htm

K0balt• 3 years ago

My off grid community runs a micro grid for the residents and projects here. Our all solar micro grid runs a coffee plantation, 7 cabins, 5 houses, a gym, a dojo, a lounge/kitchen/dining hall, water production, purification, and distribution, a small school, and several apartments and workshops.

It’s totally feasible for many areas and power is comparably priced or cheaper than the local utility while being much more reliable.

rndmize• 3 years ago

This is something I've been curious/interested in for a long time, so its good to see that somewhere out there (random Pacific islands aside), there's communities making it work.

Some rough numbers I did a month or two ago - Tesla offers a megapack that has 3.9 MWh at a cost of $2.4m. "In 2021, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. home was 10,632 kilowatt-hours (kWh). Or about 886 kWh per month." That's about 30 kWh per day; my community has 45 houses, so use of 1.35 MWh in total, so a megapack will provide power for 3 days for the community at a cost of ~50k per house. Probably not worth it and I'd expect 3 days to be overkill. But a community that was double our size will have a cost of about 25k per unit for 1.5 days of power - which doesn't sound too bad to me.

Another thing I've found interesting is Anker seems to be getting into the home power business - https://www.anker.com/anker-solix/home-energy-solutions?ref=... - which I'm hopeful about, since it doesn't seem like anyone except Tesla has been able to make something that feels simple/easy/attractive. Every time I've look at Powerwall alternatives I'm been unimpressed by the offerings; maybe Anker can deliver.

hkt• 3 years ago

It'd become much more sustainable to do what you're talking about if it was accompanied by energy saving measures. Do it well and you could easily aim for 5kWh per day per house by minimising heating and cooling choices.

momirlan2• 3 years ago

anker, being a Chinese manufacturer, doesn't have much chance to penetrate the western markets. even assuming they can develop a dependable product. but I wouldn't trust more than a headphone, or a wall charger from them.

vorpalhex• 3 years ago

Anker knows batteries and their LiFePO4 batteries are solid stuff (as are their traditional lithium cells).

Even if you prefer a US maker, competition will help lower prices.

mschuster918• 3 years ago

I agree on being careful with China goods in general, but Anker is one of the very few very trustworthy brands out there. IIRC, the only fuck-up regarding batteries they did was with the 535 power banks, and they handled that one very solidly [1].

[1] https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/anker-recalls-some-535-p...

croes• 3 years ago

Pretty strange view, when you consider that China still is the workbench of the world.

s_tec4• 3 years ago

I recently installed an Enphase home backup system as a DIY project (crazy, I know). The biggest problem with any home-backup system is moving the loads onto their own sub-panel. When the utility goes down, power needs to flow into the home, but not to the rest of the neighborhood. To do this, a switch needs to physically disconnect the utility meter from the main loads panel. If this isn't possible (such as when the meter is integrated into the panel), all the loads need to move to a sub-panel. This is the hard part.

Once the meter and main panel are separate, the various backup solutions become pretty similar. The disconnect switch installs between the two, with the solar and battery attached. Sometimes the disconnect switch + solar + battery are all in one unit (like the Bluetti EP900), while sometimes the solar inverter, battery, and switch are all separate units (like Tesla or Enphase). The Tesla switch and battery are sleek & glossy, but the inverters are ugly. The Enphase stuff isn't quite as shiny, but at least the boxes look consistent.

Performance-wise, the systems seem pretty similar as well. Most systems are around $10K for 10KWh of capacity, with somewhere around 6-9 KW of peak discharge rate. I imagine these prices will drop a lot over the next decades. If the battery becomes obsolete, just install a different system. Once the home is correctly wired, swapping the storage system should be pretty straightforward.

rstupek3• 3 years ago

Why did you choose the Enphase system versus any of the others? How much capacity did you install and is it upgradeable?

bombcar2• 3 years ago

You don't move the loads to the sub panel. You make a new main panel, move the feed to that, and turn the old main panel into a sub panel. Much easier.

newZWhoDis• 3 years ago

You don’t need an isolation switch if you use a sol ark 15k or EG4 18k, you can just tie the grid straight in and they have isolation built in if the grid goes down.

rsync• 3 years ago

"To do this, a switch needs to physically disconnect the utility meter from the main loads panel ... this is the hard part.

It doesn't need to be.

You can just use a physical interlock and toggle between utility breaker and (any input you want) breaker.

You can do this on an integrated meter panel.

This is a dead-simple configuration that you can comprehend - and verify - with your own eyes.

The lock-out switch is NEC compliant, utility approved, etc.:

https://www.amazon.com/Generator-Interlock-Compatible-Homeli...

Yes, you do lose all power for a second or two but ... so much simpler and comprehensible than an ATX solution.

cyberax• 3 years ago

If you want something crazier, try doing online backup. So that you don't get any power dropouts.

maliker4• 3 years ago

Pair the storage with some solar, and you could probably reduce the storage size or increase the survival duration (or both).

Here's a fun tool that lets you play around with the balance of these things and see the expected cost: https://reopt.nrel.gov/tool

adql2• 3 years ago

Probably not worth it and I'd expect 3 days to be overkill. But a community that was double our size will have a cost of about 25k per unit for 1.5 days of power - which doesn't sound too bad to me.

If you're not looking to go completely off-grid, I think you want to double it again. At basic level, battery pack is there to soak solar power during a day and give it off when the solar is down.

16 hours is enough to cover most or all of that..

I think the model could work if the local community basically "sold" the battery storage capacity to the users.

Pay few cents for kWh to store it for 24 hours, anything in excess can be sold back to residents at slightly lower than market price, producing some money for maintenance and upgrades.

nuancebydefault6• 3 years ago

I never stop to be amazed how average consumption figures in the US are often at least 100 per cent bigger than in Europe. At least for water and electricity, let alone fuel.

Just a thought that naturally pops up... :

If you take the reasoning one step back, wouldn't it be easier to optimize the consumption side (low hanging fruit) in favour if optimizing the cost per unit of energy? The latter seems a lot of effort, at least for the devs.

cultofmetatron2• 3 years ago

its pretty easy to understand when you spend significant time in both.

european cities: typically built for density. I'm never more than a 10 minuite walk to a grocery store. I can hop on a train or tram to get to work and I can usually stop to get groceries for the day on the way. if you're in a city like athens, you can get fresh fish and meat. was probably dreaming of finding a mate or eating fresh acorns on the other side of the pasture barely a day ago.

USA: Its a hellish landscape of urban sprawl. want to get sone milk or eggs? its illegal in most place for there to exist a grocery store within walking distance. be prepared to walk along the side of a busy road to get to a convenience store which might have what you are looking for. maybe there's a sidewalk if you're lucky. Every damn trip requires a car. your work place is probably 30 min drive minimum. there is no other way to get to work. since getting to the store requires effort, you're going to go get a week's worth of groceries to save time. fresh meat? nah, killed weeks ago in a centralized slaughter house and shipped accross the country after a life of being fed corn farmed with chemical fertilizers and shipped to the animals in temperature controlled facilities. better keep a large fridge to hold it all. wouldn't want it to spoil before you eat it.

you literally can't live in the USA without increasing your consumption. its built into the dna of our infrastructure.

eddy_chan• 3 years ago

I would imagine in the southern states where it's 40 degrees C+ every day for 3 months-4 months or more on end the heatpump (aka reverse cycle a/c) is basically kept on constantly. Let's say it draws 1kw on average, that's 24kwh right there. They actually draw more than that. There's no way around it if you want to live comfortably. But I think the whole society is designed so much around driving everywhere and living in detached houses that the low hanging fruit is actually to install solar/batteries for these guys.

rchaud• 3 years ago

Developers won't make homes below a certain square footage because it's not profitable for them. That means that there will always be an amount of square footage that will need to be cooled and warmed, despite the space being largely unused.

Most people, like the couple in this article, aren't buying green 1350sqft homes, they're buying 2500 sqft McMansions because those are what are available in the market.

tzs3• 3 years ago

I believe that US households on average get a higher percent of their energy from electricity than do European households. For a proper comparison we need to compare energy use, not electricity use.

The average US household used 77 million BTU of energy in 2015 [1]. That's 1.94 TOE (tons of oil equivalent).

The EU average in 2014 was 1.3 TOE. It ranged from a little under 0.5 (Malta) to around 2.7 (Luxembourg) [2]. UK and Germany were around 1.4, France around 1.7, Italy around 1.9. Belgium was just under 2.

[1] https://rpsc.energy.gov/energy-data-facts

[2] https://www.enerdata.net/publications/executive-briefing/hou...

caseysoftware• 3 years ago

If you take the reasoning one step back, wouldn't it be easier to optimize the consumption side (low hanging fruit) in favour if optimizing the cost per unit of energy?

Yes, absolutely.

In general, if you talk to a good solar sales rep, they'll first ask if you have done energy efficiency projects. If you have good quality windows, insulation, appliances, etc, not only are you going to be more efficient up front but you'll need a smaller array+battery overall.

There are also tax benefits for doing some of those projects together so you get some upside there too.

oh_sigh• 3 years ago

Realistically you could get that number 6x smaller, because people could voluntarily cut their usage from 30kwh to 15 when the power is out, and 1.5 days of power is probably overkill when 12 hours would get you through 99% of power out scenarios in America.

On top of that, when the grid is functioning normally, you could use the batteries to get cheaper electric rates with time of use pricing.

pests2• 3 years ago

Surely doubling the households would only half the cost or the duration available, not both?

HeyImAlex• 3 years ago

I don’t think so? Household Cost = Total Cost / Households, Household Duration = Capacity / (Household Usage * Households), Houshold*2 would half both.

mshenfield• 3 years ago

25k per unit, assuming the battery lasts 5 years, is uneconomically high at $5k/year per home.

A 100kw generator can produce enough power for 100 homes, costs ~$50k all in, and ~$1k per day in fuel costs to run during an outage. Assuming the generator also lasts 5 years, that's only $100/year per home, 50x less than the battery solution.

Batteries are for the foreseeable future way too expensive.

tzs3• 3 years ago

You probably should divide all those number of days estimates by at least 2 or 3, because in many (most?) places the times when power failures are most likely are also the times when households need the most electricity.

For example here in western Washington outages are most likely during winter, which is also when we are using the most electricity. My daily winter use is 3.5-4 times my daily summer use, perhaps even more on those years when we get a week of near record cold.

totetsu• 3 years ago

"random Pacific islands aside"

kind of dismissive..

myself248• 3 years ago

Islands tend to have good sun exposure, minimal cloud cover, and little in the way of alternatives. Of course they do solar there.

Doing solar in places that perhaps aren't as sunny, and which could easily connect to a grid, is newsworthy.

conductr• 3 years ago

Some of the Bluetti home power stuff looks nice to me as an individual and not requiring any community cooperation. It’s not as sleek as a power wall but I have space for it

https://www.bluettipower.com/collections/home-battery-backup

antisthenes• 3 years ago

Things like that are incredibly overpriced, you're paying almost $1000 per KWH of capacity.

xbmcuser• 3 years ago

The price of 50k per house will probably be 25-30k in 5 years.

NelsonMinar• 3 years ago

Is there a good technical analysis on whether microgrids are helpful in the context of a first world country with a reliable, well-run large electricity grid?

On the face of it, larger grids seem better. I simply don't believe this claim in the NYT article: "microgrid also eases the burden on the local utility, because it can disconnect from the larger grid during a period of overload". (Either the microgrid doesn't have enough power or has too much; either way it'd be better to share its resources, no?)

As a PG&E customer I'm stretching a lot to assume "a reliable, well-run grid". I've got my own picogrid here with solar and a generator because our grid is so badly run. But I'm still a technocrat optimist and think most grids can be run at very large scale well. Am I wrong?

kccqzy• 3 years ago

During a period of overload, which I interpret to mean the demand exceeding both traditional supply and micro grid supply, there has to be some kind of disconnection to protect the grid. When that disconnection happens, micro grids can at least still power limited number of appliances.

Making the grid larger and more extensively shared power decreases the probability of overload but increases the inconvenience when such overload does happen.

bobthepanda• 3 years ago

Microgrids aren’t exactly new; essential campus type facilities (hospitals, universities, emergency services, military facilities, etc.) have often run their own grids. The major difference is that it is now starting to get affordable for residential.

The particular problem it solves is mostly the cascade. You can disconnect to insulate from cascading failure, you can probably restart a microgrid easier since it’s less things to sync, etc. And a cascade can happen for all sorts of reasons, whether that be operator error (2003 Northeast blackout), a natural disaster that hits the wrong way (hurricane/tornado/earthquake/tsunami) or intentional human disaster (Ukraine)

Kon-Peki2• 3 years ago

Here is a nice link to a university microgrid explanation [0]. They claim that it allows them to isolate the failure (external or internal) and continue to provide power to the rest of the campus in 1/10 of a second:

Prior to the installation of the microgrid, Illinois Tech experienced three or more power outages each year, at a cost of up to $500,000 annually in restoration expenses, lost productivity, and ruined experiments that often cannot be recovered.

[0] https://www.iit.edu/microgrid

maliker4• 3 years ago

The US grid is still pretty reliable now, but it's been getting worse and worse.

E.g. see some of the recent NERC reports https://www.powermag.com/nerc-warns-of-mounting-reliability-...

bluGill6• 3 years ago

"microgrid also eases the burden on the local utility, because it can disconnect from the larger grid during a period of overload". (Either the microgrid doesn't have enough power or has too much; either way it'd be better to share its resources, no?)

Maybe, but probably not. The microgrid is often much more expensive than the regular grid, and provides noisy power that the grid doesn't want. Think diesel generators. Getting those power sources to sync up with the grid is tricky and adds much higher costs to equipment that most places don't need.

Some utilities will give you a discount on your power if a few times on their busiest days you agree to disconnect from the main grid and run your backup. These are days when power is most expensive for everyone (the grid is running their more expensive power sources), so that the microgrid is also using expensive power balances out. It is generally only considered worth doing this if you already are thinking about having a microgrid that can work when the local power goes out. However if you are already thinking about installing such a system you can save a lot of money by being able to separate from the regular grid on demand - but it isn't enough to pay for the install and maintenance costs of the microgrid.

Now if your microgrid is solar you provide clean power that is easy to sync up with the rest of the grid. To make solar work as a micro grid requires expensive batteries (which need to be maintained and replaced correctly). So for solar installs connecting to the grid makes sense if you can as it is cheaper. Even if you do want the microgrid for power outages, you can get by on a much cheaper system if you don't buy a system large enough to handle your worst case usage (which is a long sequence of cloudy days in winter)

adql2• 3 years ago

Microgrids are probably too small (we want economies of scale here), but it would make a whole lot of sense to move some of the storage near the generation when more and more energy gets shifted to solar.

Something like a big battery pack at every substation to handle the local loads when solar is down and help with peaks

elicash• 3 years ago

There is also networked geothermal

https://heet.org/geo/

samtho3• 3 years ago

As the cost of this equipment goes down, this can totally become commonplace, what I fear is the HOA being the monopoly energy, telco, water, and sewage provider that can then charge ridiculous rates because it simply resell from the upstream provider. They can also make the rules on what, if any, value a homeowner can derive from solar panels on their roof, perhaps even going so far as to say that they belong to the HOA and are required to have them on their roof.

tracerbulletx• 3 years ago

If you don't think the HOA is acting in your benefit do you not feel you can affect change by going to the meetings and building a coalition of your neighbors to take control?

mschuster918• 3 years ago

You generally don't stand a chance in a HOA if you're not a pensioner who has the time to actually go to meetings and wad through paperwork.

anjel• 3 years ago

HOAs are in many cases a collection of opinionated amateurs making binding decisions on behalf of their disinterested neighbors. See also 'special assessments' And that's the best case scenario. HOAs can get a tad 'authoritarian' at least according to John Oliver: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qrizmAo17Os&pp=ygUPam9obiBvbGl...

samtho3• 3 years ago

This has been my stance on the issue, but I am just pessimistic for the first generation of HOA leadership because it tends to attract nosy, controlling busybodies that love draconian rules. It’s not until those people die off or move where new leadership has an opportunity to flourish.

Additionally, my statement was more generalized view of how it could be used, obviously if a homeowner finds themselves in this situation, the strategy would be to gather neighbors support and demand it to be changed or just do a hostile takeover of the HOA.

wing-_-nuts• 3 years ago

Or I could simply never, ever buy a home with an HOA, unless it's a condo.

Why on earth would I willingly give up the rights to do what I wish with my own property as long as I follow city codes?

...and no, 'property values' don't cut it. I don't even consider my home when factoring my productive net worth.

bluGill6• 3 years ago

Sure, if I have time. The point of a republic form of government is that you vote every few years and then live your life. While it does take time to figure out who to vote for you don't have to figure out every petty issue, some of which you don't even care about (in a pure democracy you have to decide, and that means learn about them even though you don't care)

HOAs are too small to attract good people to run. (nations are too large and attract tyrants)

applied_heat2• 3 years ago

Electric co-ops generally have lower rates and are better managed than larger utilities

samtho3• 3 years ago

For ones serving municipalities or communities, sure. My electric company is a co-op, but it is also not a dedicated reseller as it generates most of its power and usually has surplus it sells to PG&E.

With an HOA, the very land your home is built on has this sort of lien via a “special property assessment” and you are subject to their policy or risk having your home taken in a 100% legal way. My electric company cannot do that to me.

jksmith2• 3 years ago

I pitched an energy arbitrage system back in 2005, but it was just too far in front of the available technology. The idea was to build small grid co-ops, where endpoints could buy/sell computing power, even just electricity based on demand. Batteries, even idle smart-washing machines and IOT stuff endpoints could provide energy and cycles for whatever.

The tech is becoming possible now, but expect utility companies to launch a threatening offensive against people to stop the de-centralization movement from happening. Nicholas Carr's "The Big Switch" in reverse.

93po• 3 years ago

There are at least a couple companies doing something similar to this right now

whelchel• 3 years ago

If you know, can you share names/links? Thanks!

maliker4• 3 years ago

The first microgrid they discuss was built by a local not-for-profit electric cooperative. It's a nice example of how there can be benefits to the grid as well as the consumers served by the microgrid. There are not a lot of details out there on the grid benefits, but I suspect a decent one would be moving load off of peak demand times.

hpb423• 3 years ago

I always wondered if flywheels[0] would be a good alternative to batteries to store energy. Flywheels can absorb peak current, help stabilize grid frequency[1] and can have high efficiency.

But I haven't seen much on the topic, and a lot in chemical batteries.

What are the prices and downsides of flywheels? Does anyone have an up date comparison of commercial solutions with TeslaWall and similar?

- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage - [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_storage_power_system#...

herlitzj2• 3 years ago

https://www.torus.co/torus-flywheel

ketzo3• 3 years ago

well, if nothing else, that thing looks futuristic as hell

would love to point out in my yard and say "oh, that? that's our mechanical energy storage device"

reacharavindh2• 3 years ago

That looks very cool. Mechanical energy storage. Any idea what the return efficiency of such a device is? And guesses about its cost?

hpb423• 3 years ago

Cool! Thanks for the link.

A 10 kWh flywheel that can charge/discharge at 20 kW (lasts for 20~30 min at this power) costs ~11500 USD + installation and control system.

A Tesla Powerwall has 13.5 kWh capacity, delivers power at ~6 kW and costs ~11500 USD.

That doesn't seem a large difference to me.

chankstein383• 3 years ago

For transparency, I'm not very well versed on this topic. That said, one concern I've always had with flywheel systems is that it ends up being a crazy heavy thing spinning at a decent rate. I don't know how valid it is but many years of being around maker communities and stuff has given me a respect for heavy things spinning at decent speeds.

They do seem like they would be a simple effective way to get some brownout or power flicker protection though!

Johnythree4• 3 years ago

A flywheel can provide frequency stabilisation, or it can provide energy storage, but it can't do both at the same time.

To provide frequency stabilisation is must be synchronised to the mains (eg run at a constant speed), while to provide storage it must be non-sychronised, eg slow down when loaded, and speed up when charging.

Of course you can use non-synchronous flywheels with synchronised inverters, but then you can do that with batteries, wind-generators, etc.

btbuildem• 3 years ago

Sounds like they are -- thanks for the links, that was an interesting review!

eldaisfish3• 3 years ago

flywheels solve a narrow problem and are worse than batteries at delivering long term energy. The examples linked in other comments are around 10 kWh of energy. Most north american houses consume around 30-80 kWh per day. The real problem with flywheels is scale and longevity. How many flywheels can you name that have been in service for 20 years? Lithium batteries have won the short duration energy storage race and most other solutions are for edge cases.

exabrial• 3 years ago

That is a _lot_ of acreage for solar. What I’m curious about though is what do we do when the solar panels degrade? We haven’t solved that problem yet as far as I know; we’re looking at up to 1/4 less energy output in 25 years (give or take, results may very, blah blah pedantic the usual fine print here)

Johnythree4• 3 years ago

They can be easily recycled, but the key is that a small decline in efficiency is largely irrelevant if the energy is free in the first place.

Jedd2• 3 years ago

TFA, and other articles I can find about Heron's Nest install, just refer to a 'battery' (255kWh) but don't mention type. So I'm assuming it's a Li-ion variant.

But with several dozen home's worth, it feels like it'd be close to where the cost / scaling of a flow storage system would be much more compelling over a conventional Lithium system.

(I'm grid-connected, with solar, eyeing off storage systems, but here in AU our prices are high and our options are small. Flow storage looks to be an objectively superior design, but at single-dwelling scale the pricing is just not competitive, at least not yet, and not here.)

Developers are building communities that act as their own miniature power grids

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