Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/the-play-deficit

by trevin • 3 years ago

467 369 3 years ago

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

atonse7• 3 years ago

We have really made it a point to have our kid play freely as much as possible and minimize scheduled activities (piano lessons etc.) the problem is that most of his friends are in a million classes so even if he’s free, they often aren’t.

That’s been the big challenge. So then there are these magical days where they all don’t have any activities and those invariably happen to be the days ALL kids look forward to. Cuz at the end of the day, they just want to play with their friends.

But that has taken planning in the past where we coordinate with parents for those free play days.

But those days are the exception. I wish they were the rule.

We’ve actually noticed how amazing his mood is after a day full of unorganized play hanging out with friends.

fnimick3• 3 years ago

Sure, but are you maximizing his college admissions chances via skills in carefully selected activities in order to stand out? (mostly joking, but this is how a lot of people approach scheduling these days)

gloryjulio• 3 years ago

I agree. You get to be really careful where you want to put ur skill points. Play time is part of the skill tree too ;)

Full scheduling of random stuff doesn't mean it would always help the children. It's the children's version of appearing busy.

atonse7• 3 years ago

haha I have been maximizing the annoyance level of my parents and others by telling my kids these things:

- don’t focus on GPA, focus on actually gaining knowledge and understanding how the world works. good grades are a measure of how you understand things. they should never be the goal. I was a C student and I am more curious about things than many of my peers with fancy degrees.

- forge your own path, there is always a thousand different paths out there. College is just one.

- no replacement for hard work. don’t expect anything in life. anything worth getting, you’ll have to compete with many others to get it so learn to be a good competitor.

- college should be approached with all the tradeoffs and as any other investment. We’ve told them we will not pay for their college. so they will have to make choices about getting the best bang for your buck. We’re the only parents in our whole social circle that aren’t saving for their college. it feels weird and isolating when that topic comes up.

- first think about the kind of life you want and then make choices to get you that life.

they’re already sick if my lectures. and they’re 10 and 5. :-)

kelseyfrog2• 3 years ago

When does little Johnny learn intrapersonal skills, conflict resolution skills, active listening skills, how to build and maintain friendship skills, or self-determination skills?

evrimoztamur• 3 years ago

This makes it sound like the adult pains of holding friendships alive as you grow older. Everybody is busy with their lives and coordinating even with your closest friends leads to 'agenda conflicts' that push your time together weeks or months ahead. It's sad to see that this is happening to kids (who are often pushed into scheduled extracurriculars for better academic opportunities) too.

awesomeMilou3• 3 years ago

(who are often pushed into scheduled extracurriculars for better academic opportunities) too.

Gotta say though, this seems to be purely a thing in the english speaking cultures. Apart from sport and maybe an instrument, extracurriculars aren't a thing in most european countries.

Extracurriculars are so peculiar that our ministry of education deems it necessary to make it a mandatory point for teachers to discuss when talking about american childrens typical day in school.

2OEH8eoCRo03• 3 years ago

This makes it sound like the adult pains of holding friendships alive as you grow older.

Bring back the pop-in!

OkayPhysicist3• 3 years ago

A good approach is for a social circle to block out social time. Saturday night, every other week or every third week seems to be the sweet spot where it's constant enough to make people not create recurring conflicts, but sparse enough that people can still make other weekend plans. Not everyone can make it every time, but between people inviting new people and a core group of regulars, you can keep it up in perpetuity.

ccleve2• 3 years ago

I came here to post exactly this. It is appalling that we live in a neighborhood where everyone can walk, there are plenty of kids that my son knows within a mile, he's 14 and more than old enough to be out on his own, but every one of his friends is in a math class, or French school, or out of town on vacation, constantly. He goes to the park and there is no one there. So he stays home and watches anime. The only way we can get him out is to call other parents and schedule something.

There is something deeply wrong here. I blame other parents who overschedule their kids.

afavour3• 3 years ago

I blame other parents

Ah, the mantra of our parental lives!

These classes kids go to aren’t always some kind of arduous, academic overachiever factory. My kid goes to a Spanish immersion after school program once a week and she loves it. She’s made a ton of friends there. We’re not shoving her through the door.

Don’t get me wrong, some parents do go over the top with it, no doubt. But a lot of these activities are genuinely enriching.

dgb23• 3 years ago

Boredom can be a great breeding ground for creativity.

myth_drannon• 3 years ago

Yes, this culture of parents scheduling play dates drives me insane. And even if you try to schedule, everyone is so busy. Kids have karate and 30 minutes later baseball and that's after school. It so much different from our childhood and we struggle to integrate into it.

hattmall• 3 years ago

Blaming other parents is great and probably correct, but putting blame on things outside of your control is a cop out.

Why don't you move to an area that's not like that, or you go an play with your kid at the park until other kids show up.

or build an app that makes the makes scheduling the play time very seamless.

2OEH8eoCRo03• 3 years ago

I met some of my current friends not from school, but from seeing them at the park or in the neighborhood while playing, walking, or biking around.

teaearlgraycold3• 3 years ago

As someone that was always surprised at how much more free time I had compared to other kids back in my school days - I'm still very much in support of limited structured activities. Me and the boys would just goof off on bikes and in backyards. This was 15-10 years ago.

I'd talk to people in class and they'd claim to have like 1 or two hours free between school and sleep. And I had something like 8 hours free. What the hell?

supportengineer• 3 years ago

I'm at the age where I'm seeing the endgame of this, our cohort of kids & friends are applying to college. They did all these after-school activities, tutors, sports, etc. They were over programmed over achievers. And guess what, even with their 4.5 GPAs and impressive resumes, they aren't getting into the colleges they want (University of California). So what was the point of all that?

Der_Einzige3• 3 years ago

Given that the anime waifu crowd is a huge reason why AI image generation is moving as fast as it does, it's probably better for society that he becomes a weeaboo. It's thankless work but someone has to label all the images on the -booru websites for the good of humanity (unironically).

jackcosgrove• 3 years ago

I used to think parents who overscheduled their kids were reacting to incentives put in place by college admissions offices and secondary selective admissions schools, and ultimately employers who demand elite credentials.

But as I've studied this issue and experienced life, it seems to be the case that credentials are in reality overrated compared to competence and experience. The vast majority of colleges will admit anyone, and the vast majority of employers requiring a degree just ask that you have a degree of any kind.

So now I think parents should just chill, not because it's the altruistic strategy in game theory, but because that's how the actual labor market works. Parents are killing themselves and their kids for no reason.

azemetre• 3 years ago

Might be an issue with your social class? I know plenty of poorer parents whose children aren't filled with a myriad of activities because the family simply can afford to pay them, the kids simply act like kids.

afavour3• 3 years ago

I’d hesitate to make any broad point with stuff like this. My daughter sounds like your son, she loves unstructured play. My son on the other hand is much happier with structured activities. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either.

giantg22• 3 years ago

Same thing as adults. Everyone is too busy to get together, especially after having kids.

SoftTalker7• 3 years ago

Structured lessons and organized sports are not the problem, kids have been taking piano lessons and swim lessons and playing Little League baseball since forever. But it can't be exclusively that. They need unstructured free play as well.

alex_lav• 3 years ago

My sister and I have separate mothers. My mother, who I lived with, was pretty absent throughout my childhood. I never really had any monitoring on how I spent my time, for better or worse, but that reality allowed me to kind of chase interests (or ignore interests) and cultivate a lot of passion and curiosity. My sister's mother was the exact opposite. She prioritized "getting to be a mom" over my sister's time and enjoyment, so she became a Scout Leader, Soccer Coach, Ballet Coordinator, Cheer Coach etc. and had my sister join all of those activities. Every day was school from 7-whenever, straight to dance, straight to homework, straight to bed. I don't think my sister ever had more than an hour or two free for her entire childhood. The outcome is kind of wild. She's an anxiety mess, overly controlling, but also unable to really think for herself or prioritize her interests (maybe because she doesn't have a ton?), and usually just takes the path of least resistance or that she's been told to take. I feel sad for her, but I obviously was powerless to stop it.

kulahan2• 3 years ago

That sucks. I used to ride the bus home after school, throw my backpack at my house, and run off to play with my buds until the sun started to go down. It was the most amazing part of my day, just being free to be a kid and DO WHATEVER. Sometimes we'd walk to the stream and pick up rocks to look for bugs and crawfish. Sometimes we'd play card games. Sometimes we'd go to the park and play "wall ball", which obviously included a painful peg to the back with a tennis ball if you failed whatever the goal of that game even was!

Anyways, point is, this fostered my interest in nature (looking for bugs), my sociability and strategy (card games), and my agility and teamwork (wall ball). This was stuff I worked hard at too, because they were my interests.

fnimick3• 3 years ago

Meanwhile I know people who look at analytics and numbers to decide what sports and activities their child (who is still in elementary school!) should be doing in order to maximize college admissions chances. It's madness. Don't play violin (even if you like it) because there are too many people doing that, you have to do something unique. Don't play basketball, it's too common and therefore too hard to stand out, you have to do something exotic. It's better to be average at something rare and expensive than pretty good at something ordinary.

We ramp up the pressure younger than ever, tell people that their entire future hinges on their success and getting ahead of their peers right now, then we're surprised that people crack under the stress?

(FWIW, the sports that seem to come up on top are rich, exclusive sports like fencing and polo, because they serve well as class signifiers in admissions)

atonse7• 3 years ago

Yeah again the same social aspect is the challenge. We’ve resolved to tell our kids to forge their own path but they hear differently from friends, teachers, and other parents.

doubled1122• 3 years ago

As a dad of two, this timeline sucks.

Even children need to be optimized for maximum success (so profit) now? Must have missed that memo.

fnimick3• 3 years ago

The "optimization" really is around signifying class. How much can you afford the exotic activities, how good is your network to get that unpaid internship or that volunteer opportunity, and of course you can't be in a financial situation where your child has to do menial work like retail.

There was a discussion here a while back with a college admissions person where they confirmed that volunteer work is a bonus where actual work is not. It's not explicitly stated, but anyone who comes from a family where they _have_ to work is at a disadvantage.

anon2912• 3 years ago

Even children need to be optimized for maximum success (so profit) now? Must have missed that memo.

Well ... no they don't and this is the problem. 'Regular' people for some reason feel the need to replicate what 'they' do. Why do you see 'them' do this and then think 'my children need what they are doing with theirs'.

Look.. the data are unequivocal. Most people are unhappy. If you are not unhappy with your life, you are the outlier and the exception. Thus... don't try to do what others are doing, since most likely they're unhappy. Just enjoy yourself.

hooverd• 3 years ago

Epee is the common man's sport, foil is for fancy lads, and sabre is for people who want to be pirates.

Kon-Peki2• 3 years ago

Meanwhile I know people who look at analytics and numbers to decide what sports and activities their child (who is still in elementary school!) should be doing in order to maximize college admissions chances.

Those people are dumb; ignore them. They're "fighting the last war", so to say.

Seriously, an orchestra needs 30-40 violins per tuba. There has to be a lot of violin players, or there is no orchestra (the Harvard orchestra is short on violin players right now [1] - they certainly aren't going to be taking many more "unusual" instruments without more violins)

The injury rates for young athletes keeps increasing (as in younger than 25-30). Plenty of research shows that specializing in a single sport at a young age is a strong contributor to this. Of course those "elite" coaches want your kid to give up everything else; when your kid burns out or get injured the coach just moves on to the next kid in line.

Just opt out of this system, your kids will be fine.

[1] https://www.harvardradcliffeorchestra.org/current-roster

floren• 3 years ago

They're not trying to optimize so the kid can be a profession violinist -- god forbid, there's hardly any money there at all! No, the idea is to just do things which make the kid look different on a college application. That's it. Once the Harvard letter comes in, the cello can be sold, it's served its purpose.

Der_Einzige3• 3 years ago

Most school orchestras are not chamber orchestra, they separate band and the strings into separate classes with separate performances.

j-bos2• 3 years ago

Looking back I've never been more active on internet stuff, social media, mindless youtube, the hn loop, than when unable to hang out IRL and do stuff with friends. Given screens are correlated with mental health issues, the article premise seems plausible.

meter• 3 years ago

I can empathize with the “friends” part.

When I was in college, I was either studying or running around with friends. The only time I mindlessly scrolled on my phone was when I ate alone in the cafeteria.

Hanging out with close friends, I hardly felt any urge to use my phone. I really miss that.

mseepgood• 3 years ago

Playing video games does not count as play, I assume?

j-bos2• 3 years ago

Games alone or online feel very different from games played together in the same room. Even if they're the game.

wing-_-nuts• 3 years ago

Man do I ever lament the decline of 'couch co-op' games. Even to this day it's so nice to be able to go over to a friends house, crack open a beer and play together.

nathanfig2• 3 years ago

(speculating) Multiplayer games with friends still provide a lot of the same healthy cooperation/conflict that play creates. But yeah I doubt it can be considered a whole substitute.

Waterluvian6• 3 years ago

This may be obvious or well-discussed but I had an epiphany some years back when my dad, regarding my kids, said (paraphrasing),

"they're not playing. 'Play' is a misleading term. They're testing the world. They're learning how things work. How gravity works. How friction holds lego together. How actions cause reactions. How friends and strangers behave when you do things. How to use language with make believe. How to comfortably and safely explore new ideas out loud with their action figures. How to discover what feels good and what doesn't. They're not playing. They're growing."

My kids are young. But I'm confident this is generally true for teenagers, too. One quick example: I played WoW and looking back... I learned a ton about how to work in a team. How to be social. What social behaviours work and don't work. How to deal with people you don't like. How to delay gratification. How to plan. And it was all in a low-stakes environment.

pomian• 3 years ago

Brilliant comment. We had a principal in our little community school who had exactly that attitude. He encouraged 'playing", and was often criticized for his efforts, by parents who didn't understand. Overall, however, the kids from that school were all eager learners, curious as to the world around them, socially very well integrated, and easily adapted to the rigors in high school and later. Play, is under valued.

OO000oo2• 3 years ago

The parents have every reason for concern, not because there's something wrong with the principal but because there's something wrong with the society their children are entering.

The parents realize that their children will be screwed if they don't get into a good college, and the poorer parents need scholarships too! The principal's philosophical musings won't pay the bills.

lolinder2• 3 years ago

I wholeheartedly agree based on my own kids, but want to add a caution lest someone misunderstand: this testing, learning, and growing is of a kind that can only be done without adult supervision. It's not something that you can give them with a private lesson. It's not something that can be taught in a classroom. It's not something that can happen at all without adults letting the kids figure it out on their own by random trial and error.

Parents generally have a strong instinct to try to make things easier for their kids than they were for themselves growing up. We know the food is hot, so we blow on the kid's food or let it cool before giving it to them. We know the toy will break if it's repeatedly thrown down the stairs, so we impose a rule that "we don't do that in our house". We know X, Y, or Z, so we sit down with them and explain it to them.

I don't think that these explanations and rules have no place (I don't want a child learning what heat is by falling onto a wood-burning stove!), but we need to recognize that it's a strictly inferior way of learning something when compared to experience. And as you point out, unstructured play is where kids get that experience in a low-stakes environment.

Play serves a valuable purpose, but as soon as parents get involved to try to assist the purpose evaporates.

Waterluvian6• 3 years ago

The way I explain this is, "my job is not to protect my kids from harm, it's to protect them from irreparable harm."

I've had this instinct whenever my kids are on the jungle gym to say, "slow down!" "That's too high!" etc. but I usually catch myself and think, "if they fall is it a cry or a hospital visit?"

bryanlarsen• 3 years ago

I don't want a child learning what heat is by falling onto a wood-burning stove!

Famously, the Dusun in Borneo teach their children to respect knives by allowing them to play with them (and cut themselves) as toddlers.

jauntywundrkind• 3 years ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivism_(philosophy_o... feels obligatory to mention here:

a theory in education which posits that individuals or learners do not acquire knowledge and understanding by passively perceiving it within a direct process of knowledge transmission, rather they construct new understandings and knowledge through experience and social discourse, integrating new information with what they already know (prior knowledge).

A bunch of the big One Laptop Per Child people were strong constructivists. It didnt seem super successful, but the OS really did a lot to build a more open sandbox for compute that kids could more directly be involved with, see & manipulate. I wish that effort had gone a bit better, had developed more compelling learning software & been given a shot at a much bigger scale, where more could have been learned/tried.

HWR_14• 3 years ago

We know the toy will break if it's repeatedly thrown down the stairs, so we impose a rule that "we don't do that in our house"

For many parents, the toy is expensive enough that it warrants a rule (like the stove.)

kajaktum2• 3 years ago

Whenever this kind of opinion props up I wonder how far would you let your child to "fail"? Clearly we need our children to stumble and fail in a low-stake environment before they actually experience them later on in life. This naturally involves taking some risk. I remember being able to walk freely around the village pretty much without any supervision, I did get hurt a lot either from running into walls or getting scratches from sword play. The problem I see is that modern people have absolutely zero tolerance for "failure" in this regard. Clearly I could have been kidnapped, fallen into the river, fall from a tall tree, got run over by the cows or whatever. Let's face it, this comes with risk. But modern society can't seem to tolerate even a single dead children. Is that for the better? Maybe? But I think trying this has a long term cost. Trying to min/max risk taking and maintaining absolutely zero children suffer is just not going to work. We'll probably lose on both ends.

Note: I have no children nor do I plan to. Exactly because I have no idea how to deal with them nor do I want them to suffer being with me lol

toshk• 3 years ago

You can definitely enrich & join play. You just have to also enjoy & play and not supervise.

magicalhippo• 3 years ago

I worked for a guy who designed playgrounds for kindergartens, schools and similar.

He stressed the importance of spontaneous, unstructured play. As you note it leads to important social development, it improves creativity and could lead to much better academic performance into the teens according to the studies he showed me.

When he designed a playground it wasn't "here they can do A and there they can do B", but he strived to provide spaces that facilitated spontaneous play. He wanted the kids to do their own thing, and provided as many options as possible. An important factor here is that kids enjoy different kinds of play. Not everyone wants to kick a ball, some want more social play so might need a space that allows for that, perhaps a secluded sitting group.

However as you note safety is a big issue. He had a guiding principle of two kinds of safety. There's subjective saftey, if you're high up you know falling might hurt. This is what kids should learn, and it's important they get to do that without permanent injury.

The second kind is objective safety, which relates to the environment and equipment, which facilitates this learning of subjective safety. There shouldn't be rocks near by equipment which could cause permanent injury if a kid fell of the equipment. There shouldn't be gaps in the swing attachment where a kid could lose a finger, and so on.

jwells89• 3 years ago

I'm not a parent, but I can imagine how difficult it must be for some parents to be able to "let go" in this way sometimes and let kids be kids.

I think if I had kids my gut feeling would be to prevent harm and unpleasant experiences, because I wouldn't want to experience those things myself, much less those in my charge who may not be equipped to handle it as well. If I allow myself to be driven by that instinct however, they'll never be well equipped which does not make for a well rounded adult. It hurts to see immediate family hurting even in trivial capacities, but a parent must seemingly be able to endure that if the children are to come to be able to stand on their own.

Gerard0• 3 years ago

Of course we told (many times) our 3 yr old son not to put his hand on the stove.

And one day he just had to try it and feel what all these stories were about. He started crying immediately. We went to the hospital and came back rather quick. It wasn't so bad, just had to have a bandage for a couple of days.

Some weeks later he does it again. On purpuse.

!!??

I tell my brother and he answers: "I kind of understand him. Sometimes I want to do it too."

maerF0x0• 3 years ago

only be done without adult supervision.

I disagree. It's best done with adult supervision, by adults who either at least allow play, if not are still playful themselves.

Yes teens do need some time without adults for a sliver of contexts, but the vast majority of learning is optimized when having the availability of at least 2 responsible adults who aid when called on but do not impose.

Lots of our ideas about teenagers, what kids can and cannot do etc are very recent and very contrary to history's proof that they absolutely can

vorpalhex• 3 years ago

"Play is the work of the child" - Dr Maria Montessori

SV_BubbleTime• 3 years ago

We often explained to ours they they were going to work like mommy and daddy, they just work at school (which was a Montessori and it was awesome).

theptip2• 3 years ago

WoW is an interesting example. I’m sure there are lessons to be learned in any activity; it’s not like structured playtime is giving you zero information to update your world model.

I suppose the question is whether the “learning density” is high or low, and diverse, in video games. I spent a lot of time on single player games as a kid and am open to the idea that MMOs give you more learning (particularly social, of course), but I do wonder how they compare with, say, team sports or running around the woods with your friends.

Waterluvian6• 3 years ago

That's usually on my mind, especially since my parents did a lot of "you're on X all the time" where X was at least a dozen different things throughout my teenage years.

The way I'm approaching it is simply: all things in moderation. Did you go outside today? Do a bit of tidying? Spend some time at the craft table? Go nuts with Super Mario after dinner. Did you wake up and play Mario for a few hours and get cranky when your brother asked you to play outside? Might be time to press the parental finger on the scale.

JKCalhoun2• 3 years ago

I'm even more bullish as to whether WoW counts as much more than team play with training wheels on.

When you screw up team play on the playground you can make enemies, rivals that will follow you through school for years to come, a reputation (for better or worse). You may have to look another kid in the eye and tell them, "No".

I don't doubt you can acquire some skills from online play, but if you think you're leveling up in self-esteem, social skills, I imagine that will get really put to the test when you find yourself alone at a party, or in an interview for a job.

Like flight simulators, they can be educational but I suspect it's a whole 'nother level of learning and experience when you could die if you screw up.

nonethewiser7• 3 years ago

Very true with rough and tumble play as well. Which i imagine is virtually non-existant for kids raised only by single mothers. And is extremely important for adolescent boy.s Basically it teaches limits - what hurts and what causes pain to others. And overall leads to much healthier social development. Jordan Peterson talks a lot about this https://youtu.be/Ay1KVzVXbjc

anigbrowl• 3 years ago

Most people do that with peers, not parents.

MisterBastahrd• 3 years ago

How on earth do you even get to the conclusion that rough and tumble play is off limit for kids of single mothers? Those kids are much more likely to go unsupervised for extended periods of times and are also more likely to learn life skills earlier as they support their mother.

Der_Einzige3• 3 years ago

I think children of single mothers are over-represented in tech circles and likely on HN, which (alongside your poor grammar/capitalization and citing of a charlatan) is why you're being downvoted. The truth hurts, but it's true none-the-less. Boys raised by single mothers have terrible outcomes compared to full families, or even of single fathers. This is a sociological fact.

iancmceachern• 3 years ago

It's scrimmage for life

mrguyorama6• 3 years ago

'Play' is a misleading term.

In psychology, the rest of your post is what "play" means. It's basically anything done as practice, or with low stakes, or without other purpose.

smogcutter2• 3 years ago

If you keep your eyes open for it around (neurotypical) adolescents you’ll see that this is very true. Everything they do that they know is observed by others is an experiment. What happens if I say… what happens if I try… what happens if I wear…

They’re very keenly tuned in to social feedback, far more so than we may realize as adults.

IMO this is also why it’s so important as an adult to be very intentional and unambiguous when appropriate. Flat statements like “that’s rude” or “that was very kind” can be very powerful.

Also worth considering how online interactions change the game- they’re trying all the same gambits, but the kinds of feedback they get are very very different than in person.

bcrosby953• 3 years ago

Flat statements like “that’s rude” or “that was very kind” can be very powerful.

Labels without understanding is kinda pointless. My friend's 5 year old has translated 'rude' to mean 'something I don't like'. Whenever he gets a timeout he calls his parents rude. It's actually pretty hilarious.

roody15• 3 years ago

Well said!

Aachen• 3 years ago

Of course. Kids aren't supposed to play instead of working just for the heck of it, there's a real purpose to it. I thought this understanding was part of upbringing and realising what it is you've been doing

brianmcc• 3 years ago

I really like this. The only thing that's missing from it is "fun" perhaps? I don't think it's "playing" unless there's also some intrinsic enjoyment!

cloudripper• 3 years ago

They are testing the world.

I like this a lot. That is so true. Personal anecdote:

When I got my first car as a teenager (a cheap, used, beat-up sedan), I would often take it out to 'play', ehm, 'test the world'. I lived in a rural area and would drive random, remote backroads for hours with no maps (and no cell phones at the time). I would try to see if I could get lost. I never succeeded. I was always able to eventually find my way, while I was simultaneously building spatial awareness and a general sense of direction that accompanies me to this day. The winter time gave me the best 'testing' environment. I would drive these backroads when they were icey and very slick. When I had certainty there was no traffic anywhere near, I would see how I handled my car when I lost control. A few rotations later, after spinning uncontrollably, I was able to regain steering and was able to navigate out of the problem.

Risky? Sure. Useful skills? Yes. Would my parents have stressed out knowing what I was doing, definitely. I'd like to think I'm a much better driver today because of it and have gotten myself out of some potentially consequential accidents because of my awareness of how a vehicle handles when out of control.

Many people learn from doing - many kids especially. Being raised in proverbial padded rooms may mask very beneficial learning that corresponds to the real consequences of life that we will inevitably face in adulthood. There will always be risk by letting our kids loose a bit more, and thats probably the scariest of things for many parents..

lossolo• 3 years ago

I also played WoW and learned a lot. I was leading a guild and was a raid leader in a somewhat semi-competitive environment (we were competing with other guilds on our server for first kills). If you want to learn how to be a team leader in a highly competitive environment where people fail, things do not go as planned, and you need to improvise, where stress comes into play when you fail for the 27th time over the last 4 hours, then you can do it there for free. You learn how to make hard choices (you may need to replace a friend with another guildmate if they are holding the whole team back by failing game mechanics, etc.), how to lead a team, how people behave in stressful situations, how to keep the team together, and how to keep morale high, etc. So next time you see a kid playing WoW with others, don't underestimate the learning experience he will get there.

emadda• 3 years ago

Play is the Trojan Horse for getting the organism to learn the principles of reality.

dredmorbius• 3 years ago

Play is low-consequence exploration.

ecf• 3 years ago

I’m convinced the late 90s and early 00s was peak growing up years and it’s been going downhill ever since. One major factor in my reluctance to have kids is that there is zero possible way for me to offer a better experience for them compared to what I had.

raincole• 3 years ago

Isn't "play" biologically testing the world? Like cats do?

caesil• 3 years ago

I wonder if this doesn't have a lot to do with cars.

In surrendering utterly to the preeminence of streets, we have essentially taken our open, free world and overlain it with an immense grid of electric fences -- thick lines all over the map that, if children wander across them, might easily lead to their deaths.

So "hold hands everywhere" and "don't let your children run free outside" become the norms. The only safe place is locked inside or behind fences; the wider world is a death trap for children.

Play inherently requires a degree of freedom, but children have none. We are just prison guards eternally transferring them from one captivity to another.

fallingknife2• 3 years ago

No. It's paranoia. Cars have been around for a long time.

pj_mukh3• 3 years ago

Is it paranoia? If it wasn’t for guns, cars would be the number killer of kids under 16. Note: This includes kids IN cars being ferried around from activity to activity.

Granted the numbers are lower now than before but that’s because of various safety and traffic calming efforts. Seems like we should push harder on that front, so parents can feel safe encouraging their kids to just pop over to their friends place on their own.

NegativeLatency3• 3 years ago

Cars as we know and use them have only been around for 100 years, which is very little time compared to say the evolution of the human brain.

lapetitejort• 3 years ago

Cars have been around for 100 years, but cars with grills taller than the average child going 60 down residential streets is somewhat new.

WaffleIronMaker• 3 years ago

I would say that American car-centric development and distrust of others go hand in hand. The more people wall themselves away into their castles in the suburbs, the less they feel part of a community, and the more they distrust others.

bluGill• 3 years ago

Not really. Cars don't help, but even when it is a safe, kids are not allowed on their own.

pj_mukh3• 3 years ago

Absolutely, and America has double problem where denser neighborhoods are seen as unsafe due to crime. And less dense neighborhoods means kids can’t go anywhere without having an adult drive them.

So kids are stuck at home, miles from a playmate.

alexpetralia2• 3 years ago

Routinely in New York City at least, you can kill someone using a motor vehicle almost with complete impunity.

The driver who led to Sammy's Law (which still hasn't passed) only received a 180 day license suspension a year and a half after the accident, even though he sped past a stopped vehicle on the righthand side (the vehicle had stopped for the child). Death by car is often considered acceptable.

There is really no disincentive to dangerous driving, to say nothing of the preeminence of driving more generally.

throwaway-243• 3 years ago

7,485 pedestrians were killed by cars in the whole of the US in 2021.

this is a great example of where whataboutism is not a logical fallacy. i mean what is your solution? ban all driving?

sure, but give me a proper public transport network that can supply the suburbs and rural areas. fix urban cost of living while you're at it.

uoaei7• 3 years ago

Which is absolutely wild to me. It is a great responsibility to wield a multi-ton machine in the proximity of other people. Driver's licenses are handed out quite freely and it seems the reason has less to do with competence than a complete failure of the economy as we know it if people couldn't bring themselves between the places that earn them money and the places they spend them, especially considering how far apart they are from each other in cities built after cars were brought into public awareness.

elibailey• 3 years ago

I agree, and not just because busy streets are unsafe for kids.

Neighborhood != community. Imo with: - Lack of interesting nearby spaces - poor walking options (unsafe, unpopulated, unshaded) - poor transit options - growing options online - polarization

Families are less likely to spend leisure or errand time in/near their neighborhoods. And kids suffer for that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes

moffkalast2• 3 years ago

Cars do make it worse, but probably aren't what it all stems from. As an example, I lived a 5 min walk away from the primary school I was attending and wasn't allowed to make the trip on my own for years. They gave me a payphone card and I had to call one of my parents to come and walk me back.

Helicopter parents don't let things like logic and convenience get in the way of taking every atom of independence from their kids. It may also have something to do with trust. Nobody trusts their kids with anything these days anymore and then they expect them to somehow grow up capable of taking responsibility? Like, how?

deanmoriarty• 3 years ago

Wow, this is so sad. I grew up in Europe in the 90s with parents who pretty much let me do whatever I wanted as long as I was a well-behaved child/teenager and getting reasonable school grades.

At 6 years old I was literally biking by the river or wandering in the woods with my friends after school for hours on end. Every day was an exciting adventure without any adult supervision, just random groups of 2-10 kids who would gather in the afternoon to play together. The rule was "home by dinner or there won't be any dinner for you". I never did any extracurricular activity, ever.

This did not prevent me from going to a great university in my country, get my master in Computer Engineering, graduating in the top 5% of my class, have a curriculum good enough to legally immigrate to the US, and working at several tech companies including FAANG, making high 6 figures now.

I would never give away those wonderful memories and early life experiences for some random extracurricular activity just to "stand out" later on, I do believe such freedom helped form my character to a much greater extent than any scripted activity would have.

MattGaiser3• 3 years ago

This did not prevent me from going to a great university in my country, get my master in Computer Engineering, have a curriculum good enough to immigrate to the US, and working at several tech companies including FAANG, making high 6 figures now.

The key question is more, could you do that today and would you sacrifice that to give your kids that childhood? Would your grades and lack of extracurriculars have earned you admission in this year's cohort? Is that path still really available?

I am 9 years out from the university admissions game, so still pretty young, but some time has passed. I would not be a competitive applicant today for many of the same programs I was admitted to back then.

High school was by far the most stressful time of my life and the fun part is, it would have had to have had more pressure to be where I am today.

medvezhenok4• 3 years ago

This is a really good point that people miss. Sure, the (insert birth year here) childhood seems really nice in retrospect, but many of the realities of life have changed, and someone growing up with that kind of childhood today will not necessarily have the same outcomes as back then.

klabb32• 3 years ago

I would not be a competitive applicant today for many of the same programs I was admitted to back then.

Disclaimer: I live in the US but didn’t grow up here. I also grew up in the 90s.

In my experience, in higher education the prestige of the school has a smaller impact on learning than most people seem to think. Mostly, it seems to function as networking and a badge on your resume which can open the next door.

But once you have a bit of experience, more doors will open. In a few years, people care more about what you worked with than what school you went to, even if it’s an Ivy for instance.

Plus, working at smaller companies is a much faster way to learn than faang, imo. Sure, you get good at politics, perf reviews, and learn some best practices, but in terms of domain knowledge and practicing decision making, faang is terribly inefficient for “growth”. I wish I had worked more at smaller companies/freelancing, because frankly most of big corp was a waste of time (although money is good).

hiAndrewQuinn• 3 years ago

You're going to have to be somewhat careful or forward thinking to keep those same benefits for your kids going forward, I'm afraid. I made the opposite move and I see kids playing outside far more often here in Finland than I ever did in the States, and I grew up in a quite cozy little suburb.

In my darker moments I fear this may be one of those things where the tradeoffs between a high performance society and a take-it-easy culture just can't be squared. But then I remember that it's more likely downstream of other, more transient issues in American culture - the ever present fear of getting cancelled, the heavily bike-hostile ecosystem, etc. It's worth fighting to get back.

OfSanguineFire• 3 years ago

Younger children in Finland do play outside more than younger children in the USA do these days. However, the linked article is about teen mental health, and Finland has a pretty bad track record for that, too. Loads of Finnish teenagers are walled off indoors, with social media their main outlet.

1letterunixname2• 3 years ago

I'll shout it from the rooftops: Down with helicopter parenting!

Independence, life skills, and fun stem from the freedom to explore on one's own. If anything parents, should be constantly nudging and encouraging kids to be more independent than is typically expected by:

1. Letting them have some unstructured, unsupervised time, especially out in the neighborhood.

2. Not automatically doing or thinking for them, especially by answering advice questions with questions that encourage reflection and independent decision-making.

3. Expect them to help with chores and needs self-service, pushing back against the expectation that parents are the forever barbers, waiters, and maids while the kids are on permanent vacation.

carabiner2• 3 years ago

Helicopter parenting is bad until it gets your kid into Cornell. Therapy can wait until that corporate job health plan kicks in.

twiddling4• 3 years ago

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-462091/How-children...

I love this article with the comparison across generations.

I grew up in Europe in the '80s, and was riding streetcars and taking subways when I was 10.

outlace2• 3 years ago

I haven’t looked into the data carefully but this strikes me as implausible at first impression for a few reasons.

One is that cultures with highly structured time for kids like China do not have the same dramatic rises in mental illness, that I’m aware of. Two is that this seems to only apply to middle class or rich western kids (unsurprising for academic studies). You really think poor kids are spending too much time at piano lessons and not playing? No they have the opposite problem of too much lack of structure.

Overall this seems quite narrow minded to me. The only part of this that rings true is the cultural phenomenon of wanting to make feel everyone safe all the time, even from mere ideas and speech.

MattGaiser3• 3 years ago

China do not have the same dramatic rises in mental illness

Or does their culture just tend to view higher levels of distress as normal given how competitive it is there?

https://fortune.com/2023/07/06/china-gen-z-mental-health-cri...

That being said, they are open that there are issues there as well.

outlace2• 3 years ago

Yeah but there’s big a difference between mental health issues in China being driven by intense academic competition and pressure and, as the Haidt article claims, lack of enough unstructured playtime.

ddq3• 3 years ago

The epidemic of youth suicide in Japan and South Korea related to the stress of their rigid, demanding education systems is fairly common knowledge.

giantg22• 3 years ago

It's the legal structure.

We live in a society where a small mistake can ruin the rest of your life; where parents can be jailed for allowing previously common freedoms to children; where children are increasingly subject to age restrictions; where parents are under increasing threat of legal actions; surveillance is everywhere; and more.

Many of these things were done with the best intentions of protecting children. How much joy does one get out of keeping a toy sealed in a box, preserving it's "value"? How much more valuable would that toy be if one enjoyed it during their childhood? We're keeping our kids in the packaging to protect them, but we're losing the real value.

adamredwoods2• 3 years ago

Before everyone begins chastising parents:

> He notes that this is a correlation, not proof of causation, although experiments with animals support the claim that play deprivation causes anxiety and poor social development.

I also wonder if "playing" in Minecraft, or Roblox supports this definition of play. Or even RPGs like DnD. It's interactive, and allows children to experiment. It's not a physical world, but I don't know if these parameters were explored.

jstarfish3• 3 years ago

I also wonder if "playing" in Minecraft, or Roblox supports this definition of play. Or even RPGs like DnD. It's interactive, and allows children to experiment. It's not a physical world, but I don't know if these parameters were explored.

I don't think so, but that's my opinion.

These virtual worlds have entirely different sets of rules that do not reflect those of reality or social norms. Kids do go through the same motions of testing boundaries, but they're testing boundaries that would get you punched in the face or jailed IRL-- but they get away with it without consequence because it's all virtual. There's no consequence to scamming other kids in Roblox or destroying people's artwork in Minecraft. It's completely normal behavior to them.

Tabletop D&D doesn't count; it's in-person, so if you're tossing around slurs or being conspicuously offensive, someone will correct your behavior.

That's the extent of their socialization, and then they're unleashed into the real world expecting things to work the same way there.

adamredwoods2• 3 years ago

> but they get away with it without consequence because it's all virtual.

I'm not sure. From my limited observations of my N=1, and even from observing some Minecraft Youtube channels, there are definitely rules and consequences. But these are tested, changed, negotiated when new members (usually classmates) are brought in.

em-bee16• 3 years ago

Kids do go through the same motions of testing boundaries, but they're testing boundaries that would get you punched in the face or jailed IRL-- but they get away with it without consequence because it's all virtual. There's no consequence to scamming other kids in Roblox or destroying people's artwork in Minecraft

i'd like to disagree. first of all these actions don't have serious consequences because it's a game. destroying someones work in minecraft is no worse than destroying your lego house. that would not get you punched in the face either, nor would cheating your classmate out of their lunch money.

there are also less consequences because of lack of supervision. i don't know about roblox, but the minetest servers my kids play on absolutely have rules against breaking others work and punish players by putting them in an in-world jail or blocking them from the server. in both cases the consequence is that the kids can't play. they have to learn how to interact with other players just as much.

chiefalchemist2• 3 years ago

Ahhhh. So it's not social media?

That said, social media aside, I wouldn't want to be a teen today. Too much fear. Too much gloom & doom. Too much adults preaching "Don't do Y and/or Z (and not offering "do this instead" alternatives).

And parents are looked down upon for not overseeing their kid's every move. So yeah, the parents live in fear as well.

This level of fear is not healthy.

We've removed agency and replaced it with a void. Is it any wonder teens are struggling?

nathanfig2• 3 years ago

One major cause would not subtract another

chiefalchemist2• 3 years ago

The point is, the mainstream media narrative has been 95% focused on the social media devil. That's leading to stagnation elsewhere.

It's not only unstructured play, it's physical activity that's needed. But how do you tell a society raised on taking pride in fat & stupid that the bridge they brought is - in the context of history - one of the biggest scams of all time? You don't. You go all in on blaming something secondary like social media (which - fyi - parents could exert more control over).

legitster• 3 years ago

As a parent of a young kid, I am rarely worried about him. He knows how to watch for traffic. He knows how to find his way home from a friends'. He knows enough about what is dangerous to do.

It's the police and CPS that I am afraid of. The ubiquity of smartphones has made tattling and "calling someone" so easy. And it's almost never from other parents! The parents are more worried about "what people will think" than they are their own kids actually being hurt!

Also, there are so many fewer kids in a neighborhood than when I was a kid (both from a declining birthrate - and also the monopoly older/kidless people have in suburban housing right now is very underreported) that there is less safety in numbers. There are only 2 other kids on our block.

alexpetralia2• 3 years ago

(deleted - posted under the wrong comment)

afavour3• 3 years ago

Agreed. Also in NYC and while I do trust my kid with road safety I’ve witnessed so many drivers blowing through a red light, speeding, parking in the middle of a crosswalk and pulling all kinds of dangerous manoeuvers that the streets don’t actually feel particularly safe. There’s just zero enforcement out there.

nonethewiser7• 3 years ago

Moreover, the 2019 Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System survey revealed that during the previous year 18.8% of US high school students seriously considered attempting suicide, 15.7% made a suicide plan, 8.9% attempted suicide one or more times, and 2.5% made a suicide attempt requiring medical treatment.

Wait a minute, what?

Nearly 1 in 10 attempted suicide? So in a middle school of say 400 kids a kid would know almost 40 peers that tried to kill themselves? I wasnt in middle school in 2019 but this just doesnt seem right. Maybe im misunderstanding.

Edit: it says high school not middle school, but point stands

dwaltrip• 3 years ago

Yeah that sounds way off.

MattGaiser3• 3 years ago

I would be curious at how far you have to go for “attempted”, especially when most supposed attempts did not require medical intervention (so it might consist of getting the materials and not having the final nerve to go through with it).

But having graduated high school in 2014, my anecdotal reaction based on that experience would be that it seems on the high side but is plausible.

My reaction certainly isn’t “no way.”

nonethewiser7• 3 years ago

Yeah there is a lot of gray area. Its also self reported, so they could also feel motivated to over report for some reason or another

mrguyorama6• 3 years ago

Maybe there's something like a "mental health crisis" that could be why it's so high.... /s

nonethewiser7• 3 years ago

Im not denying that. Im saying those numbers are shockingly high

nexuist• 3 years ago

It's not a "mental health crisis," it's schooling in general. The suicide rate among teenagers plummets when school goes out, or in the case of 2020, when a pandemic forces everyone to stay at home.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/maryroeloffs/2023/07/19/teen-su...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/childrens-risk-of...

https://pages.uoregon.edu/bchansen/Back_To_School_Blues.pdf

twh270• 3 years ago

Apparently it's even worse (slightly, but still...) in 2021 according to https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/su/su7201a6.htm.

This is horrifying. These kids are going to become adults who will, to some extent, struggle to have successful, satisfying and rewarding lives.

itronitron2• 3 years ago

Hopefully they won't get hooked on opiates like so many adults in the free-ranging generation before them.

rossdavidh3• 3 years ago

2.5% of 400, or 10, made a suicide attempt requiring medical treatment. That doesn't mean the rest aren't in trouble and in need of help, but it's likely that in a previous decade we could have missed them.

Still, 10 out of 400 needing medical treatment for a suicide attempt, is awful, and seems much higher than when I was in high school.

nonethewiser7• 3 years ago

8.9% attempted suicide. Thats what im referring to as nearly 10%

1letterunixname2• 3 years ago

Old guy perspective: When I was a kid(tm), I played with a neighbor almost every weekend be it skateboarding, building a fort, playing Nintendo, or riding bikes around the neighbor. That was back when toy guns didn't have orange tips and parks didn't have ultra-safe, ultra-boring equipment.

Perhaps the real losses of community and public commons (other countries call it "commonwealth") create a desert of human interaction. Maybe this is partly why the US has an absurd number of depressed and maladjusted young people.

m3kw9• 3 years ago

adults are human too, this applies to adults to a same, lessor or more degree

renewiltord• 3 years ago

Does anyone know of somewhere in America where it is common for children to play semi-unsupervised with lots of other children of different ages? I grew up in a super-block like setting and you could look out and see your kids play but most of the time you didn't and they'd form groups with kids of ages above and below theirs and work out some relatively fair way to play a game and have fun.

Usually sports, but sometimes something else. I actually really enjoyed this sort of setting. Kids would get hurt accidentally, there were some harmless fights, and that sort of thing.

I'm just concerned that, independent of my own viewpoint on the subject, I will be unable to find sufficient other parents with this approach, or, should I find them they'll be clustered with other beliefs that I think are suboptimal for success.

Ultimately, if there is a place with this culture then I will try to make it so I can reasonably live there.

lgleason• 3 years ago

The kid that does really well in school, makes it big is going to have an opportunity for a lot more play later in life. The kid who does nothing but play will probably end up having very little opportunity and have to work long hours later in life to barely make ends meet with lots of stress and little opportunity for play. So its a trade off.

Obviously if the kid comes from a rich family that is willing to support and leave all of their money to the kid that changes the equation, but I have seen examples where those kids still ended up as drug addicts etc..

AlexandrB• 3 years ago

The kid that does really well in school, makes it big is going to have an opportunity for a lot more play later in life.

Really? There's a constant push to "grind" more, even for well-paid professionals. This is a cultural problem, not one of attainment. Consider how Elon Musk, one of the richest people in the world, claims to work ~16 hours a day. Someone with a steady job in construction probably has a lot more free time than him.

tinycombinator2• 3 years ago

I don't think it's as simple as having 100% play vs 100% work. There's got to be some optimum balance here that we're clearly not satisfying, with our flawed notion that 100% work is the best route. It's possible for people to have a satisfying social life while also doing very well in school, and it's also possible for a loner to have a depressing life while failing at school.

Shocka13• 3 years ago

Agreed. It's not black and white and the realistic answer is something in between. It's entirely possible to work hard and still play hard, especially in your 20s/30s/40s when your body is still in its prime.

stainablesteel• 3 years ago

yes, and i'd love to put this through the frame of generational differences, which play a significant part, but we've honestly made a work/school/eat/fuck off culture that just doesn't help anyone raise kids

i mean, its even gotten to the point where no one is having them. other countries around the world apply all the golden rules of economics to become wealthy and successful, but it fails in 2 main areas: education/upbringing, and maintaining a stable birthrate/population

we're eating ourselves alive through a more insidious version of the soviet-era snitching system while proclaiming that cannibalism is immoral

nazgulnarsil• 3 years ago

I think most video games are too structured to really qualify as play. This would be why more freeform games have been such surprise smash hits.

rossdavidh3• 3 years ago

I am especially interested to hear from non-USA readers of HN, as to how much of this sounds like what is happening in their countries vs. how much is a unique American issue.

DoingIsLearning• 3 years ago

Outside looking in:

- In the rest of the world University applications are (mostly) decided on academic scores. This adds academic pressure but it means outside school work the time is yours (probably not so true in Asia though). In the US I get the impression that kids (and parents) need to create some sort of 110% intensity overachiever halo in all their out of school activities (as early as possible) to be able to pad their applications in order to impress an Admissions Officer.

- Your infrastructure is (beyond insanity) car hostage and the SUV arms race adds to even more pedestrian lack of safety. That pretty much makes a lot of kids confined to a few blocks around the house until they are 16. If you were to say to anyway in Europe that a town with more than 50k people has multilane streets but with no sidewalks they would probably protest.

- Having said that I still feel that at least for teenagers smartphone/social media usage is a major cause of mental health decline across the globe (so not US exclusive). It's the whole problem of comparing other people's filtered best with your internal self-perceived worst.

clsec• 3 years ago

Seeing lots of comments about over scheduling children's free time.

I took music lessons, did Cub Scouts Weeblos & Boy Scouts, played little league, played Pop Warner & high school football and ran track. All after school activities.

As for freedom.. I took SF MUNI, BART, Ferries and Golden Gate Transit starting at 7 year old. Any free time I had was spent playing with friends. And I had to be home by the time the street lights came on.

So it is possible to have a lot of after school activities and plenty of time to play with friends and explore the world.

ddq3• 3 years ago

Scouting is an interesting example because my experience included both ends of the scheduling vs. freedom spectrum. My first troop was all about the weekly meetings, merit badge classes, memorization, structured activities, and the like. Camping trips almost always had a specific goal, like hiking a certain trail or getting certain merit badges. My second troop was about going camping and making our own fun. Once the necessary duties were out of the way, we were pretty much left to our own devices and it was infinitely more rewarding, both as a kid and in my retrospective analysis. I learned so much more just figuring things out with the other boys, especially on the social development side.

em-bee16• 3 years ago

i was going to mention scouting somewhere in this thread for exactly that reason. we didn't have merit badges in the country where i grew up, and scouting was a lot more of less structured exploring of the outdoors or activities planned and organized by the kids themselves. and most importantly, parents were not involved.

Animats• 3 years ago

Go watch Sesame Street, S01EO1.[1]

Early Sesame Street is all about unsupervised kids in a big city.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9NUiHCr9Cs

twiddling4• 3 years ago

Another thing that's jarring is how slow paced the early episodes were.

CatWChainsaw2• 3 years ago

Were the early episodes slow, or are newer ones faster because they know kids have reduced attention spans?

dukeofdoom2• 3 years ago

"About 1 in 36 children has been identified with autism spectrum disorder (ASD) according to estimates from CDC's Autism."

When I was growing up, basically no one had it. The rates were 1 per 1,000 or lower. So one or two kids in the entire high school. Now you can expect one in your class. Many of these kids are supper naive and vulnerable, just trying to fit in. One reason why the right is skeptical of what is being taught to them.

medvezhenok4• 3 years ago

Sorry to burst your bubble, the rates of Autism likely haven't changed (or changed in a minor way), what has changed is the rate of diagnosis. A lot of the kids currently being diagnosed also have parents that are autistic but undiagnosed. Same thing with ADHD.

The paths available in society have gotten less friendly to those with ADHD/Austism (by default), so more people are seeking diagnosis today than in the past.

Also, if you go far enough back, the U.S. used to institutionalize people with mental conditions, which is a pretty strong case against seeking any sort of diagnosis.

The decrease in child mortality might have also increased the occurrence of certain conditions in the population, but I'm not aware of specific studies to that effect.

dukeofdoom2• 3 years ago

I have a friend with an autistic kid. The kid is 3 can't talk and doesn't respond to facial expressions, along with a long list of specific easily recognizable common behaviours. The idea that these common traits would have not been diagnosed by previous generation of educators is wishful thinking at best.

Key signs of autism in children include:

1. Social communication difficulties: Lack of or limited eye contact Difficulty understanding and using nonverbal communication (e.g., gestures, facial expressions) Trouble with understanding and using gestures, body language, and facial expressions Difficulty developing and maintaining age-appropriate relationships with peers Challenges with sharing interests or enjoyment with others Repetitive behaviors and restricted interests:

2. Engaging in repetitive movements (e.g., hand-flapping, rocking, spinning objects) Insistence on sameness and routines; becoming distressed by changes in routines Intense focus on specific interests or topics, often to the exclusion of others Communication difficulties:

3. Delayed speech development or difficulty in acquiring language skills Unusual patterns of speech, such as echolalia (repeating words or phrases out of context) Difficulty initiating or sustaining conversations Challenges in understanding and using language pragmatically (e.g., taking turns, using appropriate tone of voice) Sensory sensitivities:

4. Heightened sensitivity to sensory stimuli, such as noise, lights, textures, or smells Seeking or avoiding certain sensory experiences (e.g., seeking deep pressure, avoiding crowded places)

5.Unusual play and behavior:

Engaging in repetitive and imaginative play that lacks social aspects Using toys in unusual ways or showing little interest in toys altogether Engaging in self-stimulatory behaviors (stimming) to self-regulate or express emotions"

honkycat2• 3 years ago

You know that weird kid in your class? That kid would have an ASD diagnosis these days.

dunkmaster• 3 years ago

I wonder if adults can also benefit from unstructured play

syntheweave• 3 years ago

They can, but you have to shape it a little bit so that they're out of the comfort zone and playing in a different role than their usual. It's the role, not the formal structure, that is important.

Improv acting, for example, centers simple "improv games". Playing the game imposes moments of vulnerability and creativity. But if you don't add enough context some proportion of the actors will fall into habit and "play like a winner", knocking over everyone else's boundaries by being an asshole.

honkycat2• 3 years ago

we grew up in a less prosperous time than our parents and grandparents so our parents didn't have any time to raise us and were constantly economically terrorized.

I will also ALWAYS point out that our parents could go to bars at 18 and actually had places they could gather socially without parental supervision before half-way through college.

They put kinds in child jail, tell them to behave or else, make them sit through hours and hours of shitty classes in un air-conditioned rooms with checked out teachers. ( note: this is not how the children of the wealthy experience school )

Once again, you can point to economic factors like the erosion of the public spaces, the massive over-building of suburb and road infrastructure making outside objectively dangerous, and outsourcing public spaces to corporate owned malls that were NEVER profitable.

rafaelero• 3 years ago

Why talk specifically about children when the uprising on mental health issues has been seen across the board, from kids to adults and elders? It doesn't seem like a smart stratification if you want to find the correct cause.

Also, multiple twin studies show how parenting have negligible effects over life outcomes, so I am pretty skeptical of this theory.

moffkalast2• 3 years ago

There is also evidence that teens who have part-time jobs are happier than those who don’t, because of the sense of independence and confidence they gain from the job.

Genuinely wondering where they got any data for that, given that child labour is generally illegal these days and all. What kind of part time jobs for children that pay actual money exist in the present?

I suppose you've got the rare ones like acting, modelling, toy testing, but those come with a lot of other factors that are probably hard to control for and in most cases I doubt the kids are paid directly. Maybe they counted getting $5 from your parents for mowing the lawn.

twiddling4• 3 years ago

< given that child labour is generally illegal these days and all

In the US that's changing...

OkayPhysicist3• 3 years ago

Teenagers can work almost anywhere in the US. There are special rules restricting how much they can work, and under what conditions, but there aren't any states that outright ban teenagers from any kind of paid work.

janalsncm• 3 years ago

The argument in TFA makes sense at a conceptual level. Kids that aren’t allowed to play will be a neurotic mess.

But I hesitate to write off teen mental health as just a result of over parenting or social media. Those are probably contributing factors, how much is not clear to me.

Another contributing factor is the economic knife hanging over everyone’s head. It’s not enough to just finish high school like it was in the 1950s. It’s not even enough to finish a bachelor’s degree now, even though only 40% of millennials have accomplished that. So just being above average isn’t enough. You need to be excellent.

If you compare pretty much any other time in American history to the post-war economy, every metric is going to look worse. Does it mean we should be letting kids play tackle pom pom [1] during recess? So I’m not convinced by the hand-wavy look how great things were back in the day analysis.

This analysis would be much stronger if it tried to account for confounding factors. For example analyzing countries where life expectancy is not decreasing.

[1] https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads/school-yard-recess-game...

itronitron2• 3 years ago

You could also make the argument that teens only seem to be having a mental health crisis because adults are spending more time listening to them.

2-718-281-828• 3 years ago

i'd assume that play deprivation is also a major cause of mental problems in adults. me personally i just recently discovered the joy of games feasible with one or two standard decks of cards.

current selection:

- skat

- gin rummy

- german whist

- spite and malice

i found playing cards to be an amazing catalyst and temporary distraction while having a drink with a friend. it relieves the pressure of having to talk more or less nonstop. and shifting attention to the game away from conversation tends to engage the subconscious producing new interesting subjects to discuss. similar to that effect of ideas popping up during having a shower.

any standard card game enthusiasts here? what's your game of choice?

jrochkind1• 3 years ago

also possibly adults?

sourcecodeplz2• 3 years ago

My knees and elbows were constantly hurt from all the activities.

twiddling4• 3 years ago

I remember my friends and I playing tag in a copse of trees which were close enough to swing to and from branches between them. Fell out once and laid there on the ground , breath knocked out of me, staring at the dappled light through the trees...

In my 50s and I still smile when I think about that day.

sourcecodeplz2• 3 years ago

I once worked my courage up to go to the skate park with my roller blades. I fell on my ass when trying to go down the quarter-pipe. I felt like dying and couldn't breath. When I got home I threw them in the trash, without hesitation.

carabiner2• 3 years ago

Kids should be inside coding and studying math. That's what 90% of successful YC founders did I bet.

viburnum2• 3 years ago

I’m confused, play is something small children do, not teenagers. Do they just mean free time in general?

anon2912• 3 years ago

We've normalized institutionalizing children in institutions that will never let them take any risks due to insurance concerns. So many colleagues and friends put their children in day care a few weeks after birth and then straight to school. These institutions are naturally conservative and don't let children engage in the kind of rough and tumble play that they need. Moreover, in order to appeal to parents, they focus on doing 'activities' with the child.

My children are at home with my wife (not school age yet). This is apparently abnormal now. So many people have expressed concern that our daughter is not in preschool or daycare. My own mother is concerned she hasn't started academic work like my niece and nephew (they're all around four and five). A neighbor has commented that we're pursuing an 'alternative' lifestyle just by having our kids at home. It's crazy.

Now back to play deprivation. Hot take: the play at preschool, etc is not the same as play with parents, family, and friends. At the end of the day, daycares, schools, etc are businesses (yes, even public schools) that need to protect themselves from liability, which means they are naturally going to promulgate the safety culture that we now know leads to all sorts of mental health issues for teenagers. To get around the issue of lack of play, they announce new activities for the kids. One preschool we were looking at bragged that they did a 'research project' with the children! Now, I'm sure research projects while sitting inside carry less liability concerns, but I'm not sure a preschooler needs that. But, this is the best business decision as they get the benefits (low insurance premiums and ability to get more revenue by enrolling more kids) while they outsource the problems (a teen's mental health issues are the parents problem).

We are lucky to have an active community and my wife and other stay at home moms take the kids on play dates basically every day. On the days they're not with friends, they're at one of the grandparent's houses. Over the summer, they've done things like gone hiking, gone fruit picking, zoos, museums, playgrounds, pools, etc with other kids. The best part is that, since it's not a professional environment, the kids get to do things like jump off rocks, fight with each other, fall of playground equipment, run down hills, climb tall trees, etc. Now of course, not all parents are like this, and some probably think my wife is negligent (I've seen many of these parents at the playground and they seem dreadfully boring). However, some parents allow their kids to play. On the other hand, I've never met a teacher or daycare worker that would allow these things. My carers growing up certainly wouldn't. I don't even blame the teacher; they're often watching 10+ kids at a time, and it's simply impossible to pay attention to a kid doing anything fun at that scale.

But, when you have a group of adult friends supervising children, what ends up happening is that the adults sit around having fun, while the children play, which is awesome. So many times I've seen one of the kids come up to the adults with a complaint about play, and the unvarying response from all the adults is "if you're not having fun playing, why don't you sit down and engage with the adults?" Sure enough, after you put it that way, every kid goes back to playing regardless of whatever slight initially sent them away.

We need to normalize being a child again, and we need to have an honest conversation about how to make that possible.

alexdunmow• 3 years ago

The low-key judgement you get from people and especially other parents for not putting your children into day orphanage as soon as they're born is absolutely bizarre! People act like like your kids are going to grow up antisocial psychopaths because they're not surrounded by 15 other sad abandoned kids every day.

ajsnigrutin• 3 years ago

Anecdotal, but still.. back when I was a kid, we had school until 13h (1pm), maybe an hour more or less, and after that we were 'free'. We did have some homework, but that was usually left for the evening, or copied in school the next day. We did a bunch of stupid stuff, went around, from 'adventurous' trips around the city to sitting on the same benches for 6 hours talking about stupid stuff and arguing about stuff, that we couldn't google right then, because google didn't exist yet. They (the parents) didn't even wait for us to come to dinner, since sometimes we were impossible to reach (if we weren't on the same benches next to the apartment buildings).

"Kids these days" (at least the ones I know) have their whole days scheduled for 'stuff'... school, home, music lessons, sport practice, come back home at 8pm, homework, sleep. On weekends, they're packed in the cars and taken somewhere 'in nature/countryside', so they wouldn't spend their days at home or outside sitting on a bench for the whole day.

I'm an adult now, for quite a few years, and the thing I miss the most about childhood is the "freedom",... after school, you were free to do whatever, and during the summer, you were free for 2.5 months... no responsibilities, no timetables, schedules, no nothing... just kids and stupid (then important) kid stuff.

crtified• 3 years ago

Free play is but one element of an ideal childhood.

A kid can play free as much as they like, but that doesn't parlay into success if that kid routinely goes home to unhappiness and imbalance in other areas of life.

rcurry• 3 years ago

When I was like 12 my teacher was an army reservist and got the idea to teach us how to rappel off the top of the school, lmao. So we all got together with our families and rappelled off a four story building. It was bananas and we all had so much fun. Now days they’d probably charge that teacher with a felony.

kbos87• 3 years ago

There’s (rightly) a lot of focus on the impact of social media on teen mental health, and very little about how controlled, structured, and parent-dependent the average young persons’ life is today. Social media clearly plays a role, but you have to wonder if it’s a convenient scapegoat for parents who don’t want to face the impact their own anxieties and control are having over their kids lives.

thefz• 3 years ago

Yet if you point out that the current state of teens is "not alright", you will drown in comments teaching you that this is something that every genration thinks of the one before, and kids are better and better, get called "boomer"...

... Oh, and the compulsory XKCD link https://xkcd.com/1227/

makeitdouble• 3 years ago

It's weird there is little discussion about having kids play more online to have them discover that space the same way they discover the rest of the world.

We let kids look at cars, poison signs, stairs and elevators and make them understand hos it works and why it's dangerous. Online threats shouldn't be different.

Play deprivation is a major cause of the teen mental health crisis

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