Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/plug-it

by sephlietz • 14 years ago

230 240 14 years ago

URSpider942• 14 years ago

This is PR mastery.

Nowhere in the release does Tesla refute that owners have "bricked" their batteries. Nowhere in the release do they say that the battery can not be bricked by leaving it for a long period without a recharge. All they say is that it would take a period of weeks for a Tesla roadster to reach 0% charge, and that the Model S has battery disconnect technology that can extend this to several months. They also point out that the car will provide increasingly strenuous warnings to plug it in (which, no matter how loud they are, would be hard to hear from across the country, if you've left it in an airport parking lot).

If it were true that a Tesla battery pack couldn't be destroyed by letting it fully discharge, or that it had never happened, then they would have mentioned it in the release. In fact, they take the opposite tack, re-emphasizing near the top of the document that users should always plug the car in when parked.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still very enamored by Teslas, and I don't think that this is any different than the owner of a gas-powered car letting it run out of oil and seizing the engine -- it's neglect. If you don't get it by now, Tesla owners, you need to plug in your cars.

fijal• 14 years ago

"mastery" is not a very correct word in my opinion. What they do is they provide absolutely 0 information, while still calling the blog a rumor.

I was very skeptical about the blog post up until now, when tesla essentially agreed to all it's claims, by not refuting any.

TL;DR; version of the blog: "Yes, it's true, we charge a lot of money for forgetting to plug in your tesla, don't do that or you'll regret".

ChuckMcM3• 14 years ago

This was my take away as well but the mastery part is where it sounds like they are refuting something. Basically, having read that post three times, I conclude that if you ignore the warnings and let your battery pack completely discharge your car will be unusable, aka a 'brick'. Which completely validates the 'rogue bloggers' point that it is a 'known issue' and one to be aware of.

I found the 'no oil' comparison to be weak. Sure if you run your gasoline engine vehicle with no oil it will likely seize up and require an engine block replacement. However, you can leave a gasoline powered car in a barn for 20 years and then re-discover it, fill up all the proper fluids and run it. (assuming it was in running condition when it was stored). You won't have to replace the engine.

The part that is missing from the Tesla response is, if your car is in this state (fully discharged), what can be done. Is there a way to 'reboot' the car? And if so what is the procedure? Can anyone do it or only the factory? And why? If the batteries become disconnected does that also brick your car? Or can you just re-attach them ? Why doesn't the Tesla vehicle have a 'full power down' state for storage?

redthrowaway6• 14 years ago

It's really no different than early fuel-injected cars being damaged by running out of gas. The solution? Don't run out of fucking gas. That didn't stop fuel injection from becoming the dominant technology, and neither will this halt the rise of EVs.

larrydag• 14 years ago

I would think its a little different since the infrastructure was already in place for gasoline. There isn't the same infrastructure nation-wide for electric vehicles.

ceejayoz2• 14 years ago

> It's really no different than early fuel-injected cars being damaged by running out of gas.

Barring a fuel leak, your car won't run out of gas sitting in your garage while you're on a long business trip.

Kynlyn3• 14 years ago

Yes, it is entirely different. Running an early fuel-injected vehicle out of gas didn't result in a repair bill that is approximately half the purchase cost of the car.

Secondly, you could leave your fuel injected car idle for months on and end without having to worry about the car slowly slurping the fuel down and then leaving you an empty.

So it is much easier to run a EV out of battery power and far more expensive to fix it when it does happen. No amount of PR spinning, FUD or wishful thinking changes that.

tocomment3• 14 years ago

How did they resolve this with modern fuel injected cars?

I routinely drive mine until it runs out of gas (don't ask) and I haven't had any adverse problems.

burgreblast2• 14 years ago

Sounds like you knew all along that the Tesla battery could be bricked by running out of charge? That would make you one of a very small minority.

The original story got play because it was a surprising, unknown, and frankly, sucks.

If all of my fuel-injected laptops had never been damaged when they ran out of fuel, I would be pretty shocked and disappointed when it was a problem with the Kugelfischer. Much like the Tesla owners this affected.

Tesla isn't a "cause" it's just a product. So whatever happens to Tesla one way or the other has a smaller influence on "the rise of EVs" than you can imagine. Mahalo.

tlb• 14 years ago

It's a little different. Replacing the fuel pump and injectors cost maybe 5% of the cost of the vehicle. Replacing roadster batteries costs 40%.

derroboter• 14 years ago

Any details on fuel-injected being bricked if ran out of gas? Never knew about it...

droithomme13• 14 years ago

So you agree, as we all do, that if you do what the "blogger starting an unfounded rumor" describes, then you will brick the car, as he claims will be the result. So you agree the blogger is telling the truth and the PR release from tesla is a lie, correct?

outworlder4• 14 years ago

Interesting fact: I managed to break the fuel pump on my Ford Ka by running the car for too long with low fuel.

Apparently, some fuel pumps are cooled by the fuel itself. If the level gets too low, it can't dissipate the heat fast enough and the pump fails.

It didn't "brick" right away, but it got increasingly harder to start, because the pump could no longer pressurise que fuel line fast enough.

vidarh• 14 years ago

> (which, no matter how loud they are, would be hard to hear from across the country, if you've left it in an airport parking lot).

Which is presumably why they're doing this:

> Starting with Roadster 2.0, owners can also elect for their car to contact Tesla headquarters once the state of charge falls below a specified level, and we can then contact the owner.

lamnk• 14 years ago

Well, why don't they just let the car contact the owner directly then?

larrys• 14 years ago

Agree with the mastery.

And the release doesn't reference the actual blogger which is this:

http://theunderstatement.com/post/18030062041/its-a-brick-te...

They reference an ad hominem of sorts about the "rumour" at this link:

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/02/23/tesla-bricked-battery-s...

which has the title: "Tesla bricked battery story may have a short circuit"

mansolo2• 14 years ago

If it is PR mastery (not convinced) it's in the tone of the writing.

It reminds me of a notice of late payment I received from The Economist magazine some years back. It was so darn polite and diplomatic, I kept it in a shoebox ever since.

Now, whenever there's an outstanding payment issue with a client, I read the letter for inspiration.

jskopek• 14 years ago

I'd love to read that letter! Any chance you could scan it or type it up?

cyrus_• 14 years ago

This is almost PR mastery. PR mastery would be saying that the blogger is correct before listing the facts about how insanely long you have to leave the car unplugged for the battery to become inoperable, and detailing what steps Tesla is taking to make this less of an issue (i.e. making it more prominent in their manuals, working on "deeper" sleep, etc.)

As it stands, this makes me think that Tesla likes to play with words to dance around hard truths. They also didn't mention the privacy implications of them being able to remotely track your car by GPS, which is a bit worrisome.

hyperbovine• 14 years ago

Saying "the blogger is correct" at the top of the post would cause a significant portion of the readers to close the tab and never think about buying a Tesla again. To me that's a PR fail.

Also, nowhere in the post do they mention GPS--only that the car (optionally) phones home its charge level. As best I can make out that's an unfounded rumor based on a single incident.

vannevar6• 14 years ago

Real PR mastery would be to issue a modification to the warranty to include this condition within X years of owning the vehicle and be done with it. If it really is rare, it will cost them a lot less to cover it than the PR costs of fighting bad press every time it pops up.

jilebedev• 14 years ago

> Don't get me wrong, I'm still very enamored by Teslas, and I don't think that this is any different than the owner of a gas-powered car letting it run out of oil and seizing the engine

Unfortunately, that's exactly the issue: many uninformed people are getting people like you wrong simply because they lack perspective on the Tesla "bricking" issue. Electrical cars are a new technology and people don't have the perspective to shrug off serious but very unlikely problems.

This is why Tesla's post isn't simply "PR bullshit" -- it provides context for the discussion and perspective. As others have pointed out, perspective exists with ICE vehicles today: we know that there are potential bricking issues, but we keep perspective and shrug them off because we understand how unlikely they are.

It's fair to over-focus on the Tesla bricking issue, but it's more fair to place this discussion in a context: how likely is this problem to occur, and what can be done to prevent it, to spot it before it occurs.

jwr• 14 years ago

Right. It's well-executed PR, but if you read carefully, you will note that if you have an older model, discharge it to 10-20% and leave it at the airport for 2-3 weeks, you might indeed end up with dead batteries. Which I think is entirely reasonable and something I would expect.

xixi772• 14 years ago

IMO, this was horrible, horrible PR. They basically confirmed all allegations, while still coming out as snotty jerks (talking about "unfounded rumors"?!). Linking the ad-hominem attack was just low.

They are in a difficult situation, as the problem is real, and difficult to address. In fact they are clearly doing a lot trying to address it, which is to their credit -- now if instead of downplaying it, they presented it clearly, and focused on what they are doing and planning to do, and thought about more solutions, it would do them much good.

And solutions don't have to be just technical -- offering insurance (even if high-deductible) would do quite a bit to calm some fears, as would the GPS based service if explained and offered right. Either way, without some kind of fix for such problems, they will never see any adoption beyond the "toys for the rich" market.

pwpwp• 14 years ago

My thoughts exactly. Very bad response, indeed.

wisty• 14 years ago

Totally agree. Good PR lets the bad news out all at once, and the good news out in drips.

Day 1:

We are very sorry that a handful of our thousands of users has had battery problems. It is true that a battery can be irreversibly damaged by a "deep discharge". It has not been covered by our bumper-to-bumper warrantee, as it is considered to be a misuse. This is only possible if a car is not being used on a regular basis, and provided our cars are left with a 50% charge they can last for months without a problem. Please do not leave your Tesla with a low charge if you will be away for a long period of time. This should not be a problem for the vast majority of our customers, but some may need to take special precautions, if they will not be driving their car for a long period of time.

Day 2:

Compare old Tesla to new Tesla. Note how long the new Tesla can last on 50%. Note that all cars have problems (oil, radiators, fan belts); and that it takes time for the new rules to sink in. Note that only a small handful of customers have been bitten, despite it being a completely new system. Note how many people have their engines get cooked, even after 100 years of oil burning cars. Note that electricity is fundamentally simpler, and easier to maintain, and that will only get better with more design work, and as people become accustomed to it.

Then wait a while, and find (or make) some good news. Free replacements for the handful of effected customers?

The more time people spend reading and arguing over the fine points of PR spin, the more time your name is dragged through the mud. Get it over with quickly.

vacri5• 14 years ago

The two-month period to reach 50% has nothing to do with the original poster's issues. He said that in unusual circumstances - driving it heavily, then not charging it for a short time - was sufficient to brick it. If it only takes two months for a 50% charge to drain, how long does it take a 10% charge to drain?

mkramlich3• 14 years ago

> Nowhere in the release do they say that the battery can not be bricked by leaving it for a long period without a recharge.

I happen to have first-hand experience with a gas-powered Porsche that was left parked for so long (years), with no starts, that the engine eventually became effectively "bricked", and had to be written off. And I had to fork out 1000's of dollars on engine repair (attempts) to even reach the point of deciding it had to be written off. This is with a gas-powered engine, a traditional car. So there is precedent where a car owner can misuse and/or fail to maintain the vehicle properly per the manufacturer's guidelines, and it becomes bricked. This is not a new kind of problem introduced by Tesla.

redthrowaway6• 14 years ago

And so marks the conclusion of yet another Internet shitstorm. Sound and fury, gnashing of teeth, forgotten in a week.

All this has happened before, etc.

fr0sty2• 14 years ago

I wonder if as much digital ink would have been spilled on this whole kerfluffle if the original article had not used the term 'bricked'.

Bricking, at least in my mind, is something that happens suddenly usually when attempting something at least slightly risky. Jailbreaking iPhones, replacing your laptop harddrive, desoldering components in an audio amplifier and other 'warranty voiding' all carry some 'bricking' risk.

The situation with Tesla is more akin to leaving your (very expensive) bike out in the rain: Given enough time it will rust up and need to be extensively repaired but I don't think you would say you 'bricked' it...

joenathan• 14 years ago

That would be the context that the term "bricking" is most often used in but the term itself simply means the object in question has been made just as useful as a clay brick.

abruzzi3• 14 years ago

It need not be risky or warranty voiding. Bricking has been applied to software updated pushed out by vendors in the past, so I don't think it implies anything more than something that causes something to lose all function and become inert, like a brik.

fr0sty2• 14 years ago

A vendor software push is risky even if well tested...

> "something that causes something to lose all function and become inert"

add "suddenly and without warning" and I'd agree with that definition.

giberson• 14 years ago

Am I the only one face palming from reading "Here is why the rumor is unfounded" followed by the first two paragraphs confirming exactly what the blog stated? That batteries must be kept charged, and that if they get too low will contact Tesla HQ?

ricardobeat2• 14 years ago

The rumour is unfounded because you have to try really hard to get to that state. You can leave your car in storage or at the airport for weeks as long as it has enough charge to hold, and even if you get to 0% charge you still have 30 days to plug it in before all is lost.

mef• 14 years ago

Incidentally, does anyone know why the wheels of a 'bricked' car would be locked up, preventing towing?

Mvandenbergh• 14 years ago

Yes, because the systems for disengaging the wheels from the drive train won't work without power.

tocomment3• 14 years ago

Is that a fail-safe or the opposite of a fail-safe? I can't decide...

randomdata• 14 years ago

Does it require more power than a tow vehicle can supply to provide that disengagement?

mellifluousmind3• 14 years ago

One key issue that Tesla PR accidentally omits is whether owners are still responsible for 40K replacement if battery does indeed fail.

40K replacement basically tells user that go get a gas-powered car. If a fuel-injected engine fails, would it still cost just as much to replace? How about a BMW? or Mercedes? or Lexus?

ceejayoz2• 14 years ago

I doubt that was accidental.

cnyc• 14 years ago

Exactly. The first article didn't attack the fact that the "bricking" occurs nearly as much as it attached the cost of replacement.

Geee• 14 years ago

Of course you have to pay if you are stupid. Same thing if you destroy your gas-powered car on purpose using some other method. It is not a 'fail', which implies a manufacturing error or similar.

shock-value• 14 years ago

Except in this case you wouldn't be destroying the battery "on purpose" obviously, but rather through neglect or ignorance. It's a fail in the sense that this technology has been exposed to be clearly unready for wide-scale adoption, and the company in question has barely even acknowledged the issue, let alone outlined steps it is taking to fix it or improve the design.

mellifluousmind3• 14 years ago

The point is that the cost of repair an EV seems way more than a fuel-injected vehicle. It has nothing to do with stupidity

verelo• 14 years ago

No technology or system is perfect, there is a certain level of "acceptable use" that we always need to comply with. I don't think charging a Tesla is that big of an issue, and if you're fortunate enough to own one, you're probably also intelligent enough to plan ahead.

In Australia (where I'm originally from) LPG (Propane to everyone in the US & Canada) conversions on Petrol (Gas?) cars is a common thing. Its the same situation, LPG is not available everywhere, and while most LPG cars can run on both fuels...you simply think ahead before you go on some unusual route. It becomes part of your planning for a long trip and that's all there is to it. If you run out of LPG, its a bad situation...you cant just go grab bottle of LPG, its a compressed gas, you actually need to either run the car on normal fuel (Petrol) or get it towed.

My bias opinion here is that someone probably mistreated their car, and Tesla told them something like "We tried to help you before this happened, but you ignored us...its in the terms you signed when you bought the car and now there is nothing else we can do to help"

Completely reasonable.

miker64• 14 years ago

If you don't do the basic, fundamental things to maintain your vehicle, it will no longer work.

If you are, in fact, unable to grasp that, then you will pay the cost.

How is this even a thing?

burgreblast2• 14 years ago

Um, because maintaining a gas/diesel/lpg vehicle (or a laptop) doesn't include keeping it continuously fueled up at the risk of $30K damage.

You don't keep your laptop or phone charged on penalty of battery replacement, so why pretend that you're not surprised at the Tesla result?

revelation3• 14 years ago

If you completely discharge a battery, it will take damage.

Also, quite obviously, the batteries used in the Tesla are the same kind used in your laptop or phone, just a vastly greater number of them.

So yes, maintaining a laptop means keeping it charged.

(How do people not know this? Battery 101)

sek• 14 years ago

Who says they don't inform a buyer about these things, it's nothing to make a promo video about.

Who just leaves his car for 12 months somewhere, without caring about it? I know someone who left his motorcycle outside for too long and now rust killed it.

aidenn0• 14 years ago

I'm still a bit astonished that they didn't implement a deep-sleep in the roadster, but it's good to see they will do it for the Model S.

revelation3• 14 years ago

What is wrong with you people?

You are really trying to kill off cars because you got a horse carriage at home. The horse can when coupled reproduce itself, all it takes is some food and water to keep going, its unlikely to break down, you can be flexible by changing from a one-seater to carrying raw material in the blink of an eye.

Obviously, the horse is vastly superior to its new "car" competitor. Only a moron would invest in further developing the car, given that it was irrefutably shown to be inferior.

-- On a more serious note, I really can't believe this. This is supposed to be a technologically informed crowd, but you are instead acting as if we've got an infinite amount of oil "somewhere down there" and that it's unacceptable to deviate from the three ton monster SUVs that roam the streets in the USA.

mansolo2• 14 years ago

I feel you on this one, but building an industry on misinformation is not the way.

Another thought: maybe we need to stop being so obsessed and utterly dependent on cars in general. Live locally, support your community, become more self-reliant, leverage personal technogy.

gnaffle3• 14 years ago

I can hardly see that Tesla has provided any misinformation. They have apparently told owners that it is important to keep the batteries charged. Which owners will in the typical usage scenario.

Maybe a big, red warning sticker on the door would make people happy?

Sanddancer• 14 years ago

From everything I've seen, Tesla's been pretty up front as far as what the battery needs, and what sorts of behaviors to expect.

As to your other thought, some of us do not want to ghettoize ourselves. Some of us have friends in areas that are, unfortunately, difficult to reach via public transportation. Living locally would mean disconnecting from a great number of people that I care about quite deeply.

mirsadm• 14 years ago

I don't think people are arguing against electric cars as such. I'd like to think most people here want to buy (or make) a product which is very easy to use and idiot proof. That is an important part of what makes a product desirable. Having a car which breaks because someone trips over a power chord while you're on holiday isn't really ideal.

wtvanhest2• 14 years ago

What happens if you leave a gasoline car for 6 months without driving it?

That is the comparison I would like to see.

ghaff4• 14 years ago

Typically? You'll probably have to jumpstart it. If it is sitting outside you could end up with the parking brake, in particular, stuck. It's not good practice to just walk away from a car for this long (should disconnect battery, put it up on blocks, etc.) but nothing terrible is likely to happen--especially if it's protected from the elements.

The running down of batteries in an electric car to the point where they're damaged is definitely a corner case. It's not one that's out of the realm of possibility. (Someone goes to winter house for a few months, leaves car in garage, and the charger isn't hooked up properly or something.) It sounds like the current generation vehicles make it even more of a corner case although I have to wonder what the failure modes of the various protection systems are.

nwmcsween• 14 years ago

Not 6 months but about a year:

* Fuel starts to turn into a syrup from evaporation requiring you to drain the tank. (This is a big issue on 2-stroke engines, you need to do a lot more work)

* Oil should be replaced due to acidic oil eating away sediment from crank case.

* Depending on time of year coolant should be flushed (depends on what mix is already in).

* Battery will be dead.

* Brake fluid might need to be changed as well.

Half of these you can ignore but it will cause wear and isn't good thing.

jellicle2• 14 years ago

If you disconnect one of your car battery terminals, it will be perfectly fine for six months. Reconnect the terminal and drive away. It's not necessary to do anything else.

The main danger is things like squirrels moving into your engine block, if it's outside.

wtvanhest2• 14 years ago

Not sure why you were downvoted. Seems reasonable to me. And the animal threat is real.

blhack3• 14 years ago

Here's one of the problems that I have with this whole thing:

My iPod goes dead all the time, so does my phone, so does my laptop, my camera, my remote, my everything.

I think that every single battery-powered device I've ever owned has, at some point, gone "dead" (as in it won't power on).

NONE of these things have ever been completely incapacitated because of this. I've never had to replace my laptop because I let it go flat.

I'm sure some of the 5 owners who have had this happened knew that the car would go dead, but I'm sure that all of them figured that that just meant that they would have to charge it.

Tesla: here is how to fix this, and I'm asking that you do this on behalf of all electronic vehicle manufacturers (to keep people from being scared off the things by blogs like this).

Release a statement that follows the standard 3-step press release of oops:

---

1) "Own it". -- We fucked up here. This was our bad. We were stupid to believe that the general public would understand that letting the battery on their car go dead would cost them $40,000. This was incredibly stupid of us, and is 100% our fault. We take responsibility for this.

2) "How we're fixing it" -- The 5 people who have had this happen have all been contacted by Tesla motors. We're shipping a tech and a battery to all of them, and all of their cars will be back on the road by next week.

3) "Why this won't happen again" -- From now on, we're including a physical battery disconnect. A device will attach to the battery terminals that is normally off, and requires that the battery be at 5%[1] charge to close. If the battery drops below this, it physically disconnects the battery from the rest of the system, and doesn't allow for any parasitic electronics to drain it further.

[1]: 5% is a made up number.

---

Of course this won't happen, but a PR-spectator can dream.

Tesla: you bungled this one. Badly. You're hurting the entire EV industry. Suck it up and admit you were wrong.

davedx• 14 years ago

The problem is, I think, that a battery will discharge even if it's physically disconnected.

I do wonder why the batteries become 'bricked', though. All I've heard so far is just that 'they do', not why.

gvb• 14 years ago

"sounds" answered that previously http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3619112

He referenced http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Electrochem...

"The overall reaction has its limits. Overdischarge supersaturates lithium cobalt oxide, leading to the production of lithium oxide, possibly by the following irreversible reaction:"

revelation3• 14 years ago

The hell? Batteries are not magic black boxes, that when disconnected, will be removed from this world only to be recovered at a pleasing time from a distant galaxy back to you. They will continue to discharge, even if you completely disconnect them. Which is a stupid thing to do, because then the microcontroller drawing <~500mA won't be able to warn you of the impeding battery death.

learc833• 14 years ago

You can get a microcontroller to draw far less than 500mA. There are plenty of microcontrollers that can spend most of their time in a low power sleep mode where current draw is measured in microamps.

andylei• 14 years ago

> NONE of these things have ever been completely incapacitated because of this. I've never had to replace my laptop because I let it go flat.

Maybe you're fortunate, but I've definitely had to replace laptop batteries because they got bricked. If you leave your battery discharged for a long enough time, you can never charge it again.

gph2• 14 years ago

Now that you mention it, I've probably seen a couple of 'bricked' laptop batteries. At the time I didn't realize that was an issue inherent in the technology, but looking back that's probably what killed those batteries.

Well at least this whole saga has taught me more about Li-ION batteries. I feel like this information is something that should be more generally known amongst the population, not just for cars but for all the products we use with Li-ION.

Arjuna• 14 years ago

I mentioned this yesterday [1], but I am repeating it here, because I believe that it is a critical piece of the conversation.

The consequences of failing to maintain the battery are clearly stated by Tesla Motors in the owner's manual.

Is it the fault of Tesla Motors that an owner did not read, understand and follow the maintenance procedures outlined in the owner's manual? Is it not the buyer's responsibility to perform due-diligence in this regard?

From the Roadster 2/Roadster Sport owner's manual (italic emphasis is mine):

"Important! Caution: If the battery’s charge level falls to 0%, it must be plugged in immediately. Failure to do so can permanently damage the battery and this damage is not covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Also, if you allow the battery to fall to a critically low level it may not be possible to charge the vehicle. If you are unable to charge the vehicle, contact Tesla Motors."

[...]

"However, situations may arise in which you must leave the vehicle unplugged for an extended time (for example, at an airport when traveling for a couple of weeks). If this is the case, it is your responsibility to ensure that the battery does not become fully depleted."

[...]

"If for some reason, you are unable to keep the vehicle plugged in when it is not being used, it is up to you to preserve battery life by paying attention to the charge level and the temperature [...]"

[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3625527

carbocation• 14 years ago

You can put whatever you'd like into the warning. The fact of the matter is that this is a car. When a car runs out of gas, it's not forever bricked. People will, due to a hundred years of experience, expect the same from a new car that has a different power source.

They can fix this. They have the technology.

ugh5• 14 years ago

Yes, it is Tesla's fault. Clearly. You shouldn't need to read a manual to drive a car. Tesla has to make sure things behave like people expect them to behave. That's how people are going to see it, anyway. Owning up to it would be a small price to pay for Tesla.

xixi772• 14 years ago

You are absolutely right, and Tesla has no liability for these batteries.

That does not change the fact that the thing -- and especially its' handling -- is an absolute PR disaster that WILL greatly (likely fatally) hurt any wider adoption. If Tesla thinks that saving 5x40 = 200k is worth it, they are free to do whatever they feel like.

fleitz• 14 years ago

"The consequences of failing to maintain the battery are clearly stated by Tesla Motors in the owner's manual."

For sure they are well documented in the owners manual.

However, the idea of getting a $40,000 repair bill for a car is going to turn many buyers off. Tesla should cover it for the sake of their business. If Tesla was paying for these repairs I guarantee you they'd figure out a way to prevent the failure.

ghaff4• 14 years ago

At least with the 2008 manual I looked through, the warning (which doesn't seem to be as detailed as the more recent one) appears in section 5-2 of the manual. Well past all the dire warnings about using seat belts and how the car may contain chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer. I wouldn't conclude--based solely on this evidence--that everyone would be fully aware of the seriousness of letting the car discharge fully.

Of course, Tesla may emphasize the point in other ways.

That's the general problem with the omnipresent safety warnings you get with products. The important and possibly non-obvious get drowned out by the all the boilerplate silliness.

jd2• 14 years ago

I'm not going to point out how Tesla car batteries have to follow the laws of physics. Other people did that already.

Tesla cars aren't mass market products (yet). They're for early adopters who can afford what is essentially a $100.000+ toy. If you then don't read the manual and leave the car on a parking lot for months, then yes, you can ruin the battery.

So let's compare it to other early adopter technology. It took decades before motherboards didn't occasionally die during a BIOS update. For decades stereo equipment (and other expensive electronics) had a little slider on the back of the power supply labeled "110v - 220v". It wasn't always in the right position when you bought the device. If you forgot to switch it to the correct setting the device breaks, simple as that. Expensive cameras that you couldn't clean on the inside -- take them to the beach once and they're ruined forever. Cars with breaks that would fade so quickly that driving down a mountain became tantamount to suicide. Or how about power tools? They don't come with any manual and if you use them in the wrong condition you risk severe injury. Forget to turn off the stove before you leave for holiday? Your house might burn down.

So let's not lose perspective here. If you forget to plug in your Roadster before you go on holiday, in the absolute worst case scenario you have to replace the battery. Not the end of the world. As with any other piece of equipment, you can break it if you're sufficiently careless.

JS_startup3• 14 years ago

>So let's not lose perspective here. If you forget to plug in your roadster before you go on holiday, in the absolute worst case scenario you have to replace the battery. No big deal.

Have you read the original blog post? (http://theunderstatement.com/post/18030062041/its-a-brick-te...) Battery replacement costs $40k in cash and all of Tesla's documentation only gently "suggests" that the car be plugged in when convenient.

That article includes an incident where someone parked their car at a garage and the battery died within less than 2 months.

jrockway4• 14 years ago

Forget to turn off the stove before you leave for holiday? Your house might burn down.

This is the best example I've read so far. If you own expensive stuff, you have to be careful. That's life. If you're not careful, don't buy a $100,000 electric car. Buy a $750 used pickup truck or something. That way, if you break it, you'll be able to afford the replacement.

mbowcock• 14 years ago

I believe all lithium-ion batteries have a low-voltage threshold that once crossed they can not be charged again. It's similar to a fuse - once tripped - there's no* getting around it. This protection is to guard against shorts in the internal circuitry. With the current technology there is no way around it.

* Edit. Missed the 'No'.

absconditus• 14 years ago

You have never had to replace batteries in those items because they are not completely dead when they will not turn on. They are designed to prevent users from killing the battery.

surrealize• 14 years ago

Of all your devices that have run out of charge, have you let them sit that way for months? If not, then you're making an invalid comparison.

jamesgatz2• 14 years ago

OK. I have to say I think you're acting bizarrely entitled. "Bizarrely" because you're acting like you're entitled to fictitious, impossible technology. Objects that exist within the physical world require maintenance to retain their use. Even with that maintenance, they will eventually degrade. Things fall apart. Tesla's maintenance requirements - "plug your car in once every twelve months" - are absurdly reasonable.

The conversation surrounding this issue reminds me of an adult explaining to a child why their goldfish died. If you don't feed the fish, the fish dies. If you don't take care of your toys, your toys break. In this world, entropy is the natural order of things. And there's no world but this world. So stop complaining and plug your car in.

cynicalkane2• 14 years ago

As a few dozen people pointed out, these batteries can become bricked even with a physical disconnect. They're not bricking because of being drained, they're bricking because they're drained and then left for months. Do this to any other Li-Ion device and the same thing will happen.

More generally, you jumped to conclusions based on personal anecdotal evidence, ignored the entire preceding discussion, then pretended you were some kind of PR expert based on stuff you just made up.

(Edit: I guess the accusations are that some earlier battery models discharge in a week or a few, not months. I'm told the charge management circuitry of the 6000+ cell battery is extremely complicated, so improvement over time is to be expected. Nevertheless it's not a case of "duh just disconnect the battery"--these things self-discharge and also discharge very slowly over the disconnection circuitry!)

seanos3• 14 years ago

Except that for the Tesla it's days after reaching zero charge, not months.

From the manual "Important! Caution: If the battery’s charge level falls to 0%, it must be plugged in immediately. Failure to do so can permanently damage the battery and this damage is not covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty."

blhack3• 14 years ago

>More generally, you jumped to conclusions based on personal anecdotal evidence, ignored the entire preceding discussion

I didn't ignore anything, nor did I "jump" to any conclusions. The preceding discussions have been talking about the vehicle doing things like "phoning home" and issuing audible warnings.

This stuff doesn't come for free. You need the battery to power this.

ricardobeat2• 14 years ago

You missed the part where they say that it's fine if you plug it in in less than 30 days.

I've had plenty of devices nearly bricked (only working with an external power source, battery lasts seconds/minutes) by leaving them unattended for months. My 1st gen iPod dies in less than an hour after being left at 0% charge for a few weeks.

sr3d• 14 years ago

This is the weakest "anti-rumor" corporate response ever. After all that lengthy passive-aggressive "We're great, but you need to charge your battery", there's not a single statement about what would happen if the battery runs out, which is precisely what the original article is about.

Tesla, stop beating around the bush like a politician, grow up and answer the million-dollar question like a man:

What will happen once the car's battery is completely depleted?

(life-line hint: it will get bricked)

mikeash2• 14 years ago

Here's something I'm still unclear on: how strongly were owners warned about this beforehand?

If Tesla cars come with a bright red warning on the driver's side window saying IF YOU DO NOT KEEP THIS CAR CHARGED THEN YOU RUN THE RISK OF REPAIRS COSTING UP TO $40,000 then I'd say Tesla is completely in the right here.

If they didn't mention this anywhere and it's just something owners discover because they use it in a way that Tesla didn't think they should, then Tesla is completely in the wrong.

If they did something in between, then it's in between. I may have missed it, but so far I haven't seen this explained.

morrow• 14 years ago

These (apparent) e-mails between an owner with the dead battery issue and Tesla seem to indicate that there is a a 'built-in notification system' for this, but it wasn't added for the first 500 cars : http://jalopnik.com/5887504/tesla-emails-gallery/gallery/1

mikeash2• 14 years ago

A problem like this really needs advance warning, not just a notification when the problem is about to develop, since the owner may not be in a position to get the car plugged in if they don't know it could occur beforehand.

moomin• 14 years ago

TL;DR; A single blogger is spreading a rumor about electric vehicles becoming inoperable. We'd like to confirm the rumour.

Seriously, I find it breathtaking, for all the reasons people have already given. It's a case study in saying "yes" while giving the impression of saying "no".

JS_startup3• 14 years ago

What a terrible release. Is it still a rumor if the company who makes the product just confirmed that it's true? What happens when the battery runs all the way out? Why does it happen? What's being done to resolve it?

PR mastery indeed..

abruzzi3• 14 years ago

This is a textbook example of a non-denial denial:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-denial_denial

Torrents• 14 years ago

I registered at Tesla motors website so I could comment, but it says to login to comment, even when I'm logged in. When I click 'login' it says I'm already logged in.

I would like to ask if it's true or not that any batteries have become inoperable due to being drained completely. Also If that does occur, what is the cost of replacement, and is it at all covered by warranty.

It doesn't seem like that answer is forthcoming...

maxerickson• 14 years ago

It seems pretty clear to me that they do not plan on offering warranties against batteries sitting unplugged for long periods of time.

solsenNet• 14 years ago

quote "spreading a rumor"

turns out in this case the rumor is true...

well the first automobiles needed to be started with a crank on the front grill. sometimes the crank would catch and whip around an break the user's arm.

its a neat thing that even in this day and age, people aren't completely shielded from being on the cutting edge.

the 2020 Teslas are going to be amazing.

mmuro• 14 years ago

Even though this response doesn't address everything that was brought up by the original post, I still find this whole thing fascinating.

functionform• 14 years ago

tl;dr don't take your tesla camping, or it will 'discharge' coughbrickcough

jellicle2• 14 years ago

Tesla, what's the cost of bundling a solar trickle charger in with your vehicle? Either build it into the roof (next generation, obviously) or just buy one that sits on the dashboard and throw it in with purchase.

"Please to be using this when leaving vehicle at airport. Thank you much, Tesla."

Maybe there's some reason this won't work, but... you need to work with your customers' expectations. Some of them are going to leave the vehicle unplugged for a while, and they're going to be pissed if the vehicle battery is destroyed.

jws2• 14 years ago

30 watt drain. You will need 720 watt hours per day which will be around a square meter of solar cells.

Won't work in the parking garage, snow, or Seattle. Just don't leave your tesla at the airport of 12 weeks. That's expensive all by itself.

krallja• 14 years ago

Do you need the full 30W to keep the battery alive, or is that for the whole electrical system on standby?

vollmond• 14 years ago

Even if it is in the owner's manual - and even if it is prominent in the manual - how many of you have ever actually read the manual when you get a new car? I know I have only ever looked when I actively needed something: the meaning of a warning light, how to operate the disc changer, something like that. It is entirely conceivable for someone to own a relatively new car for years without needed to look in there.

edit: and yes, I realize it would probably make sense to check it out when buying a type of car that is relatively new, but that doesn't mean even a significant minority of new owners will.

aero142• 14 years ago

Why is this thread so filled with hate? This all sounds very reasonable to me. They clearly acknowledge that the battery must be maintained properly and they seem to be doing to the right things to minimize the risk. They then show very clearly that the total amount of maintenance is less than that of a gasoline vehicle, w/ oil and scheduled maintenance. There are a bunch of things like breaking your timing belt that will break a gasoline engine. This all sounds very reasonable to me. Why is everyone freaking out?

InclinedPlane2• 14 years ago

Tesla is a corporation, they make money by selling things. Sometimes those things have limitations or imperfections. By the rules of anti-capitalist internet logic that makes Tesla an evil Robber Barron trying to scam people.

snowwrestler• 14 years ago

A surprising number of people, even within the technology field, don't like change that disrupts their personal habits. Hence the constant low-intensity warfare over the various Linux distros and interfaces.

In this case a lot of folks are getting emotionally involved because this story serves as proof that electric cars can't be maintained with the exact same habits that an ICE car is maintained. Habits are a personal things, and can be difficult to change. A lot of people will fight to preserve them rather than adapt them.

stitchy2• 14 years ago

The comments here seem to fall into two unrelated categories: "Tesla isn't telling customers the whole story" and "What did people expect to happen when they left their car unplugged for months?"

Both are valid points. Why are you arguing? The points don't seem mutually exclusive to me. Tesla has a lot going for it. They make innovative cars, and I would love to own one. That doesn't make the company's PR responses any less defensive and cagey. The response for this particular issue is a big turn off for me. I would definitely prefer that they didn't contradict themselves within the first three paragraphs.

I get it. Owners of Tesla cars need to charge their cars or they will be out $40,000. That makes sense to me. Batteries don't last forever. My Mother however doesn't care how the car works. She just wants it to work. She'll do the maintenance that you ask her to do, but she's not going to know why. So, she won't know why she can't leave the car at the airport for a month.

That's why it's important for Tesla to say, "yes this is an important issue that is part of maintaining your car." Not, "A single blogger is spreading a rumor about electric vehicles becoming inoperable." If my Mother read that last sentence, she might say to herself, "oh, I guess that blogger was just lying," and move on without reading the whole article, now assuming that it's not possible to "brick" her car.

I also lay some blame at Michael Degusta's feet. I don't think that it was appropriate for him to title his article "'It’s A Brick' – Tesla Motors’ Devastating Design Problem." I don't see this as a design problem. It works. The potential for bricking your car is just something you'll have to watch out for, just like not changing your oil is something you need to watch out for.

I think that Tesla was just reacting against the accusation that they had a design flaw. As long as they make sure that all of their customers know of the issue, it's not a design flaw. At that point it's maintenance. That's where I think that Tesla failed today. They skimped on their responsibility of informing the customer of important facts, so that they could come out smelling like roses.

P.S. Incidentally, if I were to take a trip to my mountain home in Italy for half a year, roughly how much would I expect to pay in electricity to keep my Tesla vehicle charged? Does it draw a constant amount of power for the entire time that I'm away?

jrockway4• 14 years ago

If you can afford a $100,000 car, you are not going to leave it parked at the airport for a month. Tesla does not make cars for people that need a utility vehicle, they make toys for rich people. Some day, this technology will be mass market and the batteries will be more forgiving. Today is not that day.

stitchy2• 14 years ago

I agree with you. But now that you mention it, it seems like utility vehicles get used more often. Rich toys often stay in the garage with the other rich toys.

TwoBit• 14 years ago

tl;dr - A Tesla car can in fact be bricked.

The blogger should write a follow-up article: "Tesla admits that cars can be bricked. They are just a little harder to brick than assumed."

droithomme13• 14 years ago

Wow. Great example of PR spin. It totally confirms the bricking claims by refusing to outright deny them. Instead it just repeats that you are supposed to recharge it and not let the batteries deplete, which is something everyone already acknowledges is true and is not a point of contention.

There is also a jab at a "single blogger" bringing the issue up, as if he is some rogue on a vendetta or looking for attention. But then not denying his claims makes this look like an insidious corporate attack on a journalist who actually brought to the public's attention a serious flaw with a product. Very similar to how GM's attacks on Ralph Nader back in the 1970s started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed#Industry_re...

jrockway4• 14 years ago

I read this as, "yup, you'll brick your car if you don't keep it plugged in."

On the other hand, I manage to keep my cell phone charged at all times, so I can imagine that I'd be able to keep my car charged at all times. But I ride a bike, so this doesn't really affect me.

jfasi• 14 years ago

This is a good release, however there is a better way to present it.

By now, gasoline powered cars have been around for a hundred years. Everyone knows they are complex machines with lots of movings parts, and that they require regular maintenance to keep in working shape. What Tesla is putting forward here is the fact that the same principle applies to their electric cars: they need their own kind of TLC to be kept in good shape.

However, there is another point Tesla fails to get across. Over those hundred or so years, not only has the need to care of a gas-powered car entered into the public psyche, but also how that care must be carried out. Everyone knows that cars need oil changes and exhaust checks and all that. It's obvious by now.

However, that sort of awareness doesn't exist when it comes to electric cars. Saying they need care is great, but Tesla is missing an opportunity to develop the same sort of intuitive public awareness with regard to their vehicles. It's not just 'these cars need care,' it's 'these cars need care, and its of a kind you don't expect, that's OK because you haven't need raised on these vehicles since you were young.'

This way, the message would move from being an ever-so-slightly condescending implication that you forgot that electric cars need electricity, and refocuses on the need to augment the way in which people think about maintaining their vehicles.

cenuij• 14 years ago

Is it true to say that other battery only electric cars don't have the same potential, sorry, to become a brick? If so, this PR response is pure fluff.

wmf• 14 years ago

Other EVs have the same warnings in their manuals.

ssmoot• 14 years ago

I can't remember ever saying this before, and it's not even really plausible considering how relatively small HN is, but some of the comments here feel like they're directly from the mouth of Tesla.

I mean seriously. Cost doesn't matter? Time doesn't matter? Equating going on vacation without your car to never changing your oil?

Just because someone says it's neglect, or even has a contract that defines it that way, doesn't mean it's reasonable or even anywhere near the realm of common sense. That's just lawyer speak that is.

phil• 14 years ago

This sounds a lot like breaking a timing belt on an engine with an interference design. (When that happens the cylinders plow into the valves and there's a lot of carnage).

On my car that's a $6-7000 fix if it happens. I bet if there were only 2,500 of those engines in the world it would be a $40k fix, but economies of scale have made it cheaper.

gwern• 14 years ago

> The earliest Roadsters will take over two months to discharge if parked at a 50 percent charge without being plugged in.

What exactly are the conditions for this statement to be true? My laptop battery has lost some of its capacity over the past 2 years - how much capacity do Roadsters lose over time? If I had bought one of the first 100 or whatever, what would that discharge figure be now?

xl-brain• 14 years ago

So, I guess they are saying you can brick a Tesla roadster.

Just to add to the PR observations, I like how they have a few positive comments, but it is actually impossible to make comments on the post.

grellas• 14 years ago

Deposition line of questioning suggested after reading this piece:

Q. Is it true that the battery has catastrophic failure when it drains to zero and is left in that state for a sustained period?

A. The company has built in countless safeguards to ensure that the battery never drains to zero.

Q. That is not what I asked. Please answer the question.

A. It is an unfounded rumor that many owners have incurred such a catastrophic failure and only an irrational fear would permit anyone to believe that.

Q. I didn't ask about many owners, only whether it is possible to incur a catastrophic failure as described. Please answer the question.

A. Our documentation clearly tells owners that it is vital to keep their car plugged in and we give them ever-escalating warnings to ensure that no rational person could ever let the car get close to that state.

Q. I didn't ask about the likelihood of this happening, only whether it can happen. Please answer the question.

A. We value our customers more than you can imagine and it is slanderous to suggest that we would subject them to risks that can be avoided.

Q. Again, not what I asked, please answer the question.

A. Every car has risks of catastrophic failure if it is badly misused.

Q. Does this mean the Tesla does too with its engine?

A. We will not dignify a mere rumor with an answer to that question.

Q. And is it true that it costs $40K to replace the battery?

A. I object to that as irrelevant.

Q. And that it is not covered under warranty?

A. Ditto - irrelevant.

Q. And constitutes an uninsurable risk?

A. We really are off track here. I will not answer.

Q. So you do not regard it as worthy of disclosure to your buyers that, should their battery drain to zero for any sustained period, the only remedy is to replace it at their own expense at a $40K cost.

A. That disclosure would not fit with our marketing plans. Plus we say something of the sort at page 487 of our owner's manual.

Q.Well I guess this was all pretty pointless.

A. Of course, nothing wrong here. Ignore the man behind the curtain. What a stupid thing to ask about anyway. The revolution is apace and you shouldn't bother me with little details.

eduardordm• 14 years ago

Answer to your first question: No. The battery is fine, the stupidity in understanding that Li-ion batteries must never be fully discharged is the only catastrophic failure here.

Why can't I down vote your post? :(

PS: Don't buy any RC model (or diesel engines!), they all suffer from the same "catastrophic failure".

dhughes• 14 years ago

What about diesel engines? I have a diesel, have run out of fuel (clogged filer), have had air in the system - bled it out, was dangerously low on radiator fluid but no ill effects.

All that over the span of ten years and I still drive it actually the engine is the best part the rest of the truck is falling apart around the engine.

Add to those no spark plugs, no spark plug wires, no distributor, a more durable engine design, higher efficiency compared to a gasoline engine.

pbreit2• 14 years ago

> Is it true that the battery has catastrophic failure when it drains to zero and is left in that state for a sustained period?

This question is answered multiple times in the owner's manual and buyer contract (where buyer is required to initial after reading). I'm not sure why it would need to come up in a depo.

zephjc• 14 years ago

Devices are not pets or children. They should not die through owner inaction.

outworlder4• 14 years ago

Assuming Tesla PR is correct, then:

1- All modern battery packs, including laptops, have internal management circuitry that, among other things (like controlling charge so that they will not explode) not allow the damn thing to deplete. When 0% charge is reported the battery still has plenty of juice left.

2- With the given parasitic drain, the battery will last for at least a month left at 0% charge

3- If you leave you car at the airport, you kinda expect to be able to get back, so you won't leave the car at 0% when you depart. And even at 0%, you have a month to plug it in

So, barring a zombie apocalypse, what is the expected use-case that actual owners would encounter, to be able to destroy the batteries? It is certainly not normal usage.

eldude• 14 years ago

The comparison of a fully discharged battery to the negligence of running a car with no or bad oil is disingenuous and likely manipulative. One is a passive issue of forgetting or not knowing a car requires charging when _not operating_, the other is an active negligence of operating a car that is unfit to run. I can neglect a car in storage for decades and getting it started will not require more than the cost of the car. At best it will require a tune-up and a full tank of gas.

pbreit2• 14 years ago

The original blogger and all the naysayers were completely insane to think this was some sort of design oversight and that the Model S would not include significant improvements.

mathattack• 14 years ago

Seems like a little upselling going on in the defense. That is mastery.

bambax• 14 years ago

Isn't the whole point of "electric cars" to save energy?

Here we learn that they need juice constantly to run "vital systems" and therefore consume energy at all times, even when not running. The owner cannot choose to let his car unplugged because then it'll break down completely and need to be repaired at a cost of 40% of the original price.

This is not progress.

jaggs2• 14 years ago

Two words: Nissan Leaf.

Quote - "Nissan spokeswoman Katherine Zachary tells Motoramic that the all-electric Nissan Leaf "will never discharge completely, thanks to an advanced battery management system designed to protect the battery from damage." Thanks to a combination of different management and battery cells custom-designed for the car, Nissan has sold 22,000 Leafs and never suffered a similar failure. Tesla's acolytes may find no fault in the charges, but other automakers know there's little margin in blaming customers for not asking the right questions."

Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

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