Intentionally making close friends

https://www.neelnanda.io/blog/43-making-friends

by rzk • 4 years ago

1076 303 4 years ago

neelnanda.io

killjoywashere• 4 years ago

This deserves a deeper read

sys425902• 4 years ago

I really like reading this article and I think it's a good start to get rid of a loner lifestyle.

There's however one caveat... making close friends is quite a culture dependent topic in my opinion. Making close friends requires differerent approaches depending on the culture you're living in. Strategies that work in San Francisco may not work in Miami, Buenos Aires or Trondheim.

adamsmith1432• 4 years ago

I think the strategy of "Go do things with the same group of people repeatedly" is quite universal.

sys425902• 4 years ago

In some cultures and sub-cultures "opening up" is closely tied to the consumption of inappropriate levels of alcohol, while in others you can go without and still build a good connection to other people.

nerdponx2• 4 years ago

This is interesting because I have a handful of close friends, but I've never made a close friend intentionally. I suspect that even "naturally social" people might benefit from thinking about their social lives and relationships with more intention, especially as we/they get older and opportunities for random friendship development tend to wane, especially in highly-individualized Western society where people spend most of their time focused on themselves and their nuclear families.

Enginerrrd• 4 years ago

It is my experience that the most "naturally social" individuals ARE operating with a lot more intention if they let you really pick their brain, or you watch them interact with disparate groups of new people in different settings.

nerdponx2• 4 years ago

Maybe it depends on what we mean by "naturally social".

I tend to be gregarious and outgoing in most situations, but I also am very much an introvert in that I find it tiring to keep up for a long period of time. I find that I lack the social stamina to maintain and tighten connections with new people I meet. So my natural tendency is to have a large number of loose acquaintances and a very small number of close friends.

jcmontx• 4 years ago

This fellow had higher emotional IQ at age 17 than me at age 27. Great read!

hnuser847• 4 years ago

If it you makes feel better, at the age of 34 my therapist handed me a "feelings wheel" as a way to help me name my emotions[1]. Prior to that, my emotional vocabulary essentially consisted of "anger" and "joy". This in turn lead me down a very deep and painful rabbit hole to figure out why I had so much trouble accessing my own emotions, opening up to people, and trusting others.

[1] https://feelingswheel.com/

Errancer• 4 years ago

I skimmed through and the article looks a lot like what I think as well. One bonus point I didn't see is that the more people take the intentional-based approach the easier it is to befriend each other. My best friendship was formed and is sustained through intentional effort we share to keep it this way.

Barrin922• 4 years ago

I don't really understand this tendency to create these artificial systems for having friends. To me it's in the same category as dating apps, or weird exercise routines.

The best way to have deep friendships is to live a social life. Engage in the community you livee in, take on responsibility, be politically active, start a business, become an open source maintainer, if you're religious go to church/mosque/etc. If you're active and engaged with the people around you'll basically have no choice but to have deep friendships. We're social animals by nature, there's no need for a ten step program.

altdataseller• 4 years ago

Some of the suggestions you offer don't really increase the chances of making close friends.

Like being an open source maintainer - how is that really going to lead to close friends?

Or starting a business - sure you might network more, and meet business partners, but do they really become close friends?

I will say that going to a church regularly was the #1 thing that really led to lots of friends for me. Like instantly.

Barrin922• 4 years ago

I'm not talking about 'networking' which is a grift in the same category as all the other artificial crap, I'm talking about sitting in the same awful office, fixing bugs till midnight, eating crappy pizza and putting your blood and sweat into something that's meaningful to you. You do that with people for several years, they're not just friends but pretty much family.

And being involved in an OSS community around a shared project, particularly long lived ones offers the same opportunities especially for people who are physically in a place that's isolated. I know a non-trivial amount of people who found their spouse through academic and OSS communities. Work connects people.

micromacrofoot• 4 years ago

I don't think your experience translates well to everyone, hence the need for different methods.

I'm active in my community, politically active, have started and sold a business in the past, etc... and all I have are acquaintances. I don't think anyone outside of my immediate family even knows when my birthday is or how old I am.

lezojeda• 4 years ago

You are describing ways of getting acquaintances/just friends, the article describes ways of deepening those friendships such as paying more attention to questions that lets you better know people, I found it very helpful, it may come 100% naturally to you, but not to all of us

camtarn• 4 years ago

This really isn't true. I lived a pretty active life for a decade or so, as a drummer in various drum groups (samba, etc). I was well-liked, people knew my name and seemed to enjoy hanging out with me, and I had some decent conversations. But I didn't really have any people I'd be super comfortable chatting with 1-1, and nobody I'd call up and specifically hang out with.

It was only when the pandemic hit that I realised that, without the regular group socials I was used to, I literally had nobody to chat to. At that point I started doing more or less exactly what this article said, and deliberately trying to make closer friends. I'm happy to say that the strategy worked pretty well.

Perhaps you are naturally good at making deep friendships in these circumstances, but I think a lot of people are not.

antisthenes• 4 years ago

You're describing a way to make colleagues and acquaintances, not friends.

The more active social life you lead - the less time you have to spend on every individual you meet, hence, it is not enough to become close friends.

yshklarov• 4 years ago

We're bipedal animals by nature, but not every individual is able to walk. Likewise, although we're social animal by nature, not every individual can easily form close social ties.

There are many reasons a person might struggle to make friends. For instance, some people were poorly socialized, or have some kind of early-childhood developmental trauma that makes it difficult to feel the appropriate emotions when talking to people. Others naturally have trouble with empathy and so are unable to smoothly navigate social interactions. And some just naturally aren't interested in learning about other people's lives, or in telling others about themselves. So they have to force themselves somehow.

I agree with you: these artificial systems are pathological and unpleasant. But sometimes it can seem like the only option.

My impression is that you've never struggled with any of these very basic aspects of life. Consider that not everybody's experience is the same.

halpmeh• 4 years ago

Many people make close friends at university, even without intentionally doing so. There's a common, yet erroneous, pattern of thinking in many "successful" people where they attribute their actions to their success without considering that they may have still been successful had they chosen different actions. In this case, the author may have still formed closed friendships had they not chosen to do so intentionally, as many other students do. The only way to really know would be to have the author clone themselves twice and have each clone go through school with one intentionally seeking out close friends and the other not.

ianbutler• 4 years ago

I’ve only really intentionally made a close friend one time. However, my longest closest friend was not that way. Him and I bonded pretty much immediately after getting into a fist fight on a high school wrestling mat during practice and our coach had to separate us. Now he’s been there through most of my achievements and I his. Good guy, doing a PhD in chemical engineering at Case Western now.

harry-wood• 4 years ago

yes. I see what you're saying.

heads out into the street to start a fist fight

Xcelerate• 4 years ago

I fortunately have close friends, but not through any of my own doing. Over the years, there were a lot of friendly extroverts that encouraged me to hang out and join them for burger night, or they’d message me when they were in town. Everyone I dated took the initiative to ask me out, including my wife. I always feel awkward when I reach out to people, as though I’m bothering them somehow, so I tend to avoid doing so. Once someone is a close friend, I go out of my way to maintain the connection, but it’s that in-between stage of “acquaintance” where I have a hard time.

I had a bit of a revelation when I left my last job. There were very few comments from coworkers when I left. I don’t think I was disliked (hopefully?), but I don’t think anyone really considered me their friend either. Looking back I think I came across as somewhat of a NPC to coworkers. I preferred to eat lunch by myself and I only discussed the business topic at hand during meetings unless someone else brought up a personal discussion.

I wouldn’t mind to start more personal discussions, but I’m always concerned it might come across the wrong way, so the furthest I seem to get is “how was your weekend?”

bgroat13• 4 years ago

I am one of these friendly extroverts.

Something that's hard for me to explain is that "making friends is so hard it's easy"

What I mean by that is, social anxiety is so high, population-level self-absorption is so high, people are so lonely... that for the most part if you just approach someone and behave as if you're friends... they'll go for it.

There's so much DEMAND for friends, that people will gobble up your supply if you offer it (so long as you're not a total monster)

moralestapia• 4 years ago

I don't disagree with your post, but this only works in communities where:

1. Trust hasn't been eroded (i.e. fraudsters/salesmen do not predominate)

2. There is an external stimuli towards making friends (i.e. socializing is being perceived as a good thing)

3. There is an internal stimuli towards making friends (i.e. disregarding #2 and all other personal needs met, one still feels the need to connect with others)

The fact that you've got the results you mention here shows that you live in a community with mentally healthy, although isolated, individuals. You'll find drastically different results in other parts of the world (third-world, for instance). Plenty of people wouldn't talk to you if they see no financial benefit in doing it (even a measly amount can have a profound effect). I used to make fun of this but it's not an easy thing to swallow and can get you quite depressed.

The "loneliness epidemic" is just a reflection of the eroded values and misplaced goals that are now commonplace around the world.

lisper3• 4 years ago

Making friends is not hard in the way that general relativity is hard, it's hard in the way that digging a trench is hard. You have to do a lot of grunt work for a very long time in order to see results. And there are no shortcuts, you have to do it all "by hand" or it doesn't work.

rchaud3• 4 years ago

There's so much DEMAND for friends, that people will gobble up your supply if you offer it (so long as you're not a total monster)

This really doesn't ring true outside of school/university years. Back then, you are constantly meeting new people, and seeing them regularly in class and on campus. People that age don't have a "max occupancy" number when it comes to making friends. As an adult in the working world, the opposite is true.

Outside of that uni environment, a new person is going to have to knock your socks off with their personality, for you to even consider meeting up with them again. Most people cannot make a first impression that good.

Outside of school/uni, people are busy with daily life, and far less likely to chat with strangers. Friendship groups begin to quickly narrow around this time as well, as people get married, go to professional schooling of some kind, and start hanging out mostly with people that are very similar to them.

agumonkey• 4 years ago

It's not only social anxiety that forbids people. It's also failed relationships that bruise your desire to try again. In my case I failed people enough time not to want to bother someone else :)

krageon2• 4 years ago

There's so much DEMAND for friends, that people will gobble up your supply if you offer it

This is true, but only if you're attractive and somewhat charismatic. I would say that means it doesn't apply to the majority of people (who are plain or ugly and not particularly charismatic or actively repulsive).

WallabyEV• 4 years ago

I found positive social interaction as a baseline really rings true - a smile and the nod type thing - post-lockdown in Texas. Great to practice manners again and laugh at mixing up direction of traffic in the grocery store. Bumbling around in a mask in a hurry was not pleasant, this is nicer so I behave the same!

AntoniusBlock• 4 years ago

If people are going out of their way to approach you (especially women), then it's probably down to you being attractive or at the very least above average.

Xeoncross• 4 years ago

I go out of my way to maintain the connection

It could also be that the OP possesses traits which are notable and desirable to the right people.

I've barely exchanged a few sentences with someone before and they immediately stick out to me; not because they are attractive physically, but I notice something about their character that is desirable or rare.

bee_rider• 4 years ago

On the other hand, attractive women sometimes get harassed. If you are an attractive man, many people will just generally automatically be nice but also respectful toward you. Then you could end up with a cheery disposition because from your point of view the world is just a friendly, respectful place, and people are even nicer to you (or you could turn into a spoiled jerk, there are lots of paths).

the_only_law3• 4 years ago

Something happened within the last year, either to the general social environment around me or my own demeanor. I used to be able to go out and speak to people, have convos, people would even approach me.

This year has been much different though. When I go out no one wants to talk, except for straight lunatics. At the bar the other night the only guy who wanted to talk went on a tirade about “the Jews” and kept asking if I was a Jew. A couple years ago I could have had a nice conversation with someone who had just sat next to me.

replwoacause• 4 years ago

I am this exact same way.

-NPC Person

nier• 4 years ago

NPC as in non-playable character?

One of the first search results reads:

«[…] slang used by millenials to denote people who act as if they are being told by someone to act in a specific manner, although that may not be the case. Using this abbreviation, the commentator or the creator is poking fun at the other person for acting in a certain manner.»

gruez• 4 years ago

Right word, wrong meaning. In the result you quoted, a person's intelligence is being compared to that of a NPC, implying that the person can't think for themselves and does whatever they're told like how NPCs in games act. The gp seems to imply a slightly different meaning, where a person is thought of as being not being a real person, and is only someone you go to for transactional work related stuff.

_chu1• 4 years ago

NPC as in someone who is unremarkable, is basic and the same as everyone else, hence the name a non-playable character (moreso referring to a background characater).

esparrohack2• 4 years ago

We’re all NPCs for the ruling classes. That’s the big irony. It’s Elon’s simulation and we’re just living in it.

bowsamic3• 4 years ago

Another meaning that has started to become prevalent is the conspiracy theory that some people don't experience qualia and have no internal "souls", i.e. they don't actually exist they are just robots. See twitter every time someone points out that some people don't have an internal voice or can't see images in their mind. There will be a chorus of people who are genuinely horrified and claim that this means that the person is not a real human but actually a robot. It sounds dramatic and I think people might even downvote me for this comment, but I've seen it quite a lot and increasingly often

NPC has, for some, become a term to completely dehumanise, in an almost moral panic kind of way. In a way that's like "what if the people I know are actually NPCs?"

Guidii• 4 years ago

Origin predates computer RPG's. It's from tabletop role playing games, and stands for "non player characters".

NPCs are the characters that the Dungeon Master (DM) creates to guide and influence the story, but the player characters (PCs) are the focus of the story. It's collaborative storytelling about the PCs adventure. An NPC is, by definition, not the hero.

Workaccount2• 4 years ago

I always feel awkward when I reach out to people, as though I’m bothering them somehow, so I tend to avoid doing so.

Sometime around 30 it hit me like a swinging log to my introverted face that the reason I felt that way was because that's how I felt when people reached out to me.

It really shook my perspective to realize that many people like having someone reaching out to them and they are not annoyed by it.

Foivos• 4 years ago

I preferred to eat lunch by myself and I only discussed the business topic at hand during meetings unless someone else brought up a personal discussion.

Probably, they thought that you did not like them.

pessimizer2• 4 years ago

Your Friends Have More Friends Than You

https://scribe.citizen4.eu/your-friends-have-more-friends-th...

Math makes this part of the human condition. I honestly think that the solution for the shy (like you and I) is to value the relationships that these extroverts offer. At least a couple of the extroverts will think you're wonderful, and the other people that they will accidentally bring into your life through their gregariousness will cover the range from extreme introvert to extreme extrovert and everything in between. You will be meeting those introverts through a person who they trust, which is your best opportunity for successfully connecting with other shy people.

The only caveats are that you can't focus on one extrovert; get to know more than one, they're happy to talk. Focusing your explorations on one extrovert puts too much burden on the extrovert, and they want to share their time with a lot of people. The second caveat is to not let the extrovert take advantage of you, because a lot of extroverts are con-men/sales-types.

edit: 97% of the good friends I have had in my adult life were the result of a single extrovert talking to me out of the blue in my high school cafeteria. Through her, I met my first real girlfriend, and met two of the members of the band I'd end up singing in and touring with in my 20s. Still friends 30 years later, so I guess she liked me.

nicbou• 4 years ago

Someone posted succeedsocially.com in another thread, and it's an excellent resource that might help you. I'm astonished by how on-point it is.

kelnos7• 4 years ago

the furthest I seem to get is “how was your weekend?”

Not a social expert here, but that isn't a bad start! Sure, it's a bit small-talk-y, but it can open up more interesting conversation topics. Assuming the person you're talking to give you more than just "oh, it was fine", anyway.

You can also modify it to "did you do anything interesting over the weekend?" And then if they say something specific, you can follow up with deeper questions about what they tell you they did, and go from there.

I get that it's hard, though. I considered myself an "extroverted introvert" (and even an "introverted extrovert", on my more socially-energetic days), though pandemic isolation has weakened the extrovert part. I often feel like asking deeper follow-up questions is intrusive and somehow bothersome, but I think the first step is to just make yourself not care, and ask anyway. Listen to how the person responds, and you should be able to get an idea if they do want to talk more about it, or if they'd rather not. If not, you can slow down and disengage. But if they do, then that's a good sign to continue.

JumpCrisscross2• 4 years ago

had a bit of a revelation when I left my last job. There were very few comments from coworkers when I left

Can't remember who said this to me, but it stuck: nobody remembers congratulatory calls for a new job. But you never forget each person who reached out when you were fired or let go.

It's fun but ephemeral to celebrate. It hurts to share pain, but it’s rewarding. When I find people my gut wants to share burdens with, I listen: they became close friends.

ChrisMarshallNY3• 4 years ago

It's a great article, but is not the way that I have worked.

I'm a bit "spectrumish." I'd make a great hermit. I don't really find a need to have close relationships.

One thing that I've found in any relationship, is that a "power dynamic" changes things a lot. Most romantic or working relationships have a "power dynamic," where one party has some kind of leverage over the other, or that one party gets more from the the relationship, than the other.

This isn't necessarily bad (after all, we get married and have families all the time), but I feel that it adds a different "color" to the relationship.

Most of my closest (male) friends are ones that I don't have a "power dynamic" with. We usually have drastically different vocations, and don't really need each other. We generally have common interests (I suggest that volunteer work is a great thing), but find each other's company enriching and interesting.

xyzelement4• 4 years ago

// Most romantic or working relationships have a "power dynamic," where one party has some kind of leverage over the other,

This is a very weird way to think about it. Something I realized after I got married and bought a house and had kids, is that I love it and none of it would be possible without my wife. Likewise, she couldn't have any of this without me. We are partners.

If we wanted to look for power imbalances, we could find them. Like, we could obsess over who makes more money, or does more child care, or who had a greater impact on our selection of where we live etc, but that would be a very weird thing to put front and center. Much more importantly is that both of us are willing to put a lot into the relationship and consistently get even more out of it, enabling us to lead deeply meaningful lives together.

ChrisMarshallNY3• 4 years ago

This is a very weird way to think about it.

Got it in one. I’m pretty weird. I assume that my friends, acquaintances, and others, are also weird, as I read about that, in some book (can’t remember which one). It was one of those “Things that make you go ‘hmmm…’.” things.

But if it makes you feel better to call me “weird,” knock yourself out.

timoth3y• 4 years ago

“If you go out looking for friends, they are scarce. If you go out to be a friend, you'll find them everywhere.”

― Zig Ziglar

galaxyLogic2• 4 years ago

And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make

- Beatles

profstasiak• 4 years ago

But in the end it doesn't even matter

- Linkin Park

zelphirkalt• 4 years ago

The number of people I have tried to be friends with, but who not treated me like one -- I think it sounds catchy, but is not true at all, at least in my circles.

MetaMalone2• 4 years ago

Think we have been forgetting the necessity of relationships in a post-internet society. It can be a good thing to be intentional about relationships. The benefits don't only apply to introverts, it can also be important for extroverts to cut off harmful people from their lives and deepen connections with those they need most.

standardUser4• 4 years ago

Plus one for intentional relationships. I've become much more careful about who I form bonds with as I've grown older, and I've left a handful of long-term friendships behind when I realize I didn't want those people in my life. I'm not an extrovert, but I do make friends easily and I learned the hard way that if you just make friends with everyone who comes your way, you'll end up with some bad friends.

MetaMalone2• 4 years ago

Appreciate the note on making friends - I’m also not exactly an extrovert and I also make friends easily. I wish I would have known this sooner that it’s not as difficult to make lasting friendships as it may seem.

But it does take time.

galaxyLogic2• 4 years ago

I wonder if "Dividera et Impera" has something to do with workplace relationships and the society at large? In autocratic systems it is not in the interests of the ruling class that people would be friends with each other.

Friendship is not too far off from unionizing.

great_reversal• 4 years ago

I'm 23 and have lived most of my life without having close friends. I'd say I'm very extroverted and can strike up engaging conversations with most people I meet. I'm easy going and don't really have a fear of talking to new people.

The problem is that I end up with dozens of friends that I regularly have good banter with, but it just never feels like one of those "best friend" or "close friend" situationships. Most of my own problems or vulnerabilities are dealt with by myself, internally, perhaps with some advice from others if I discuss it. It feels like you need to lean on people emotionally in order to actually become closer.

What OP has mentioned does actually work and I have used some similar approaches, without knowing it, to improve my friendships. But you also need to attach a high value to regular conversation and communications. If you don't keep in contact on a regular basis, the friendship will diminish, regardless of the closeness.

zug_zug2• 4 years ago

It feels like you need to lean on people emotionally in order to actually become closer.

I do feel like a lot of friendship comes down to interdependence, which I see as a good thing. But it's not always emotional, it could be that he helps you fix your motorcycle and you let him rant about his ex-wife. Or maybe you rely on this person's great taste in video games.

But yeah in general I think being open enough to gently "ask for help" in one form or another from people helps them grow close to you.

loeg• 4 years ago

It's good to keep in practice with making friends -- close or otherwise -- as an adult. Most of us are pretty bad at it, and on average we got worse at it during Covid. I appreciate the spirit of the post and applaud the author on seeking it out and writing about it.

lordnacho• 4 years ago

Great article, though it does give a sort of programmy-algorithmic answer to one of life's great questions. Not saying that's bad, just unexpected.

I was actually thinking about it today. Here's an awkward truth about friendships that everyone needs to get comfortable with: often one of you is more interested in the relationship than the other. You know what I mean. For instance, I was invited to a wedding a few weeks ago. It never occurred to me to write to this buddy in many years, I didn't invite him to my wedding, but he invited me to his. I had a great time, we caught up and had a good talk. The same has happened the other way round, I'm sure. People I like a lot and contact, but they don't contact me. Yet when we hang out, everyone has a good time.

If you act weird about these relationships, you lose them. You don't want to do that, because marginal relationships are maybe the most rewarding to maintain, IME. People doing different things to you in different places bring a lot more into your mix than the ones you see every day. There also tend to be many of these relationship-seeds, so your close friends will grow from some of them.

CretinDesAlpes• 4 years ago

It's a good point, but I would say it's not awkward, just expected unless exceptional circumstances (for example two single persons sharing a flat and having similar interests at that time). Like any relationships, friendships evolve with time, you might get close at some point but things change and you are not in touch much for the next few years, and then the situation changes again and you are back closer. Don't you think?

I see this happening especially when people get in and out of intimate relationships. I think it's just life...

zug_zug2• 4 years ago

I appreciate you calling this out.

I want to take a step back and generalize a little here, because I think there are a huge number of hypothetical "ideals" we tell ourselves friendships (and families and relationships) are "supposed" to be, but in reality basically never are - and when we hold ourselves to these ridiculously high standards literally we just end up isolating.

For example I think a lot of people act like lying is a huge betrayal of trust, but white lies are more-or-less a social lubricant (even comfort-lies that might prevent the person from growing, like "Yeah it was him/her, not you.").

Another example is romantic idea that we're 100% into 1 person romantically and 0% into anybody else until the moment we break up.

SubuSS• 4 years ago

I think that’s any close relationship: the internets like to say if you don’t get 50/50 - hit the lawyer, but reality is it is never 50/50. You won’t be in any long term relationship if you don’t accept that.

Michelle Obama posted this recently (that I agree with very much)

‘’’

michelleobama

Verified

As an adult, I’ve lived in a number of places, but as far as I’m concerned, I’ve only ever had one real home. My home is my family. My home is Barack.

But here’s the thing—our marriage has never been perfectly 50-50. One of us is always needing more or giving more. We have to be willing to listen to each other, honestly and without defensiveness. Only then, can we evolve together.

Over the years, a lot of young people have asked me about marriage. And my response usually goes something like this: You have to prepare yourself for long stretches of discord and discomfort. You have to learn how to make real compromises in the way you’ve lived as an individual. Glamorizing a relationship while you’re dating will lead you straight to difficulty once you’re married. You can’t paper over problems when you’re living with someone day in and day out.

So you’ve got to ask yourself: What are you trying to get out of this relationship? Have you truly thought it through? Do you want a wedding or do you want a lifelong partnership? Those are two very different things. Together, you are answering the question: Who are we and who do we want to be?

‘’’

balaji12• 4 years ago

"Traditions are solutions for which we have forgotten the problems" - I think this quote fits to so many more situations as I get older. Relationships (w/ friends and family) are easily strengthened by traditions.

Traditions are very algorithmic. Traditions sometimes force us to connect/meet people and resolve conflicts if you follow the "rules". Traditions can be hard to follow (as in overcoming some inertia or discomfort).

PS: Don't have to think of just cultural traditions. A gang of college friends can have their own silly but decades long traditions and inside-jokes.

legerdemain7• 4 years ago

The author is a child. The core of his anecdote is "I dated a girl and then I went to a summer camp and got my camp mates to do that '36 questions' exercise the New York Times popularized several years ago." I think this advice would be useful to socially awkward college students who need explicit instruction for talking to classmates.

hahamrfunnyguy2• 4 years ago

While the author is young, they've made some accurate observations - at least in my experience.

thenerdhead3• 4 years ago

Yeah absolutely accurate for their age. Will their age change things? I know it did for me when I approached 30.

legerdemain7• 4 years ago

The author's primary advice for making more friends is that you will have conversations with lots of people and you should iterate through them quickly by making more intimate conversation and revealing something about yourself to deepen the relationship.

This makes sense if the author is a student at a school of any meaningful size in a popular major. But it doesn't make sense for adults struggling to make connections outside of school. Assuming you work in an office, would you serially go from desk to desk asking coworkers out to 1:1 lunches? I'm a member of over a hundred groups on Meetup and I manage to find in-person events maybe every couple of weeks or so. And I talk to maybe 1-2 people at each one: everyone else mostly brings coworkers and talks to them instead. When I go work on a laptop at a cafe, I try making some kind of conversation with someone who is also there alone, but that's also usually 1-2 people a week and that's a sentence or two back and forth, not even a conversation.

I get the sense that even lonely people looking for more chances to connect with others have few promising encounters with strangers and can't apply that "filter fast" mindset.

yunwal2• 4 years ago

Yeah, I was so ready to agree with this article at the beginning, but then got to the 36 questions part and felt queasy reading it. Imagining a friend coming up to me and reading off some script about "who is your ideal dinner guest" makes me depressed.

I do think there are some decent observations in the beginning of this article that a lot of people take too long to realize.

1) There comes a time in most people's lives where making friends won't come without a lot of effort. You will have to go out of your way to create situations where you can get to know people.

2) Asking probing, slightly uncomfortable questions can lead to deeper friendships. If you're the type of person who doesn't feel comfortable digging into people's feelings, it's worth it to force it.

That being said, you need to treat your friends like they're unique people. You can't read questions off a script and expect them to feel good about it.

AtNightWeCode• 4 years ago

That font is super-annoying. You are not a friend...

emadabdulrahim• 4 years ago

Maybe you could be his friend and help pick a better typeface that works for prose ^^

sfusato• 4 years ago

Excellent article, but don't make having close friends part of your main goal. Once you are comfortable with who you are, do things on your own, work on new hobbies and interests, then you will attract the right people. Being confident and positive are a people magnet.

s1artibartfast• 4 years ago

I strongly disagree, or at least don't think that's Universal. There's more to meeting and making friends then simply being yourself. There's taking risks and putting yourself out there. There is making time and priority for them. Maybe this works for someone who is naturally an extrovert and naturally makes friends, but that isn't everyone. Not everyone can or should try to take a wait for them to come to me approach

kelnos7• 4 years ago

don't make having close friends part of your main goal

Why not? If that's what you want, then, by definition, that is your goal. Sure, you might be falling prey to the XY problem, where your actual problem is that you're feeling emotionally unfulfilled, but erroneously believe that having close friendships (when you currently have few or none) will help solve that problem. But... I kinda think that's likely to be a pretty good solution.

ispo• 4 years ago

I wish I know how, as a migrant that changes countries every 5-7 years... Alas, there is no way.

aeturnum4• 4 years ago

IMO this is the #1 takeaway:

I was trapped in a ‘normal’ mode of conversation - making small talk, being inoffensive, feeling aversion to being weird, respecting where I thought other people’s boundaries were.

If you want something else, you gotta let others know somehow! Everyone's life is different and has differently shaped spaces for relationships, interaction, etc. It's very common for people to be open to growing closer to some of their social circle, but be unsure about who to focus on. It can be you if you simply indicate you are also interested!

On the other hand, I think this is more wrong than right:

A point I’ve made throughout is that this is a skill.

Calling "Growing closer" a skill suggests it is a craft that 'you should' practice - but it's not. Growing closer requires work and attention and you will get better at it over time - but to think of it as a skill "you are doing" instead of a mutual process that advances only at the shared pace you are getting into manipulation. "Growing closer" is measured by the combined 'distance' by which you and the other person have adjusted your lives to be closer to one another.

Maybe OP means that having deep and vulnerable conversations is a skill - and THAT I would agree with, but it has nothing to do with growing closer! You can have deep conversations with strangers (in fact it's often easier to have them with strangers).

People who discover the power of intimacy in our atomized world risk accidentally leading others to believe they want a deeper relationship than they have the capacity to maintain.

andreyk2• 4 years ago

I think the "this is a skill" just refers to the various things needed to form and maintain friendships (being good at conversations, taking social initiative, following up, etc.) More of a set of skills. And to be fair, my interpretation is that it is a set of skills both people in the process of friendship possess and need to practice to make things work (it is possible after all to be a bad friend or a bad partner due to your own lack of effort or skill with eg communication or vulnerability).

aeturnum4• 4 years ago

* it is a set of skills both people in the process of friendship possess and need to practice to make things work*

I think this is another example of the idea I am trying to critique (and warn against). This suggests that "the process of friendship" is a singular, universal thing that will look the same for all of us (or for all of our friendships). Or that friendship "working" is a straightforward series of opportunities for both people to "say yes" to something. I think that is wrong.

Instead, I would say that over time a friendship is best understood as a series of opportunities to become more or less central to each other. Closeness and stability do not need to be linked! My oldest friend and I are extremely stable and comfortable with each other - but I would not say we are close. That we aren't close isn't a failure. It's a recognition that our lives have gone in different directions and that we most comfortably experience intimacy with other people. It's not a failure! Both our lives would be more frustrating if we relied on each other, with our divergent social worlds and approaches to life, for mutual understanding.

it is possible after all to be a bad friend or a bad partner due to your own lack of effort

This is true, after a way, but I think it mis-orders things in a way that will lead to confusion. You are only a bad friend or partner if you don't make the effort that you agreed to make. If you are frustrated that you friend or partner isn't showing up in a way that you want them to show up in a way they have never said they will - you are the one who is doing "badly" in the relationship! Obviously, the reverse can also be true - people can promise things and not deliver, but the gap is between commitment and behavior. There is no bad or good level of energy to put into a relationship as long as you aren't deceptive about it.

Basically, you aren't a bad friend or partner because of 'your own lack of effort' - putting more effort into engaging a way your significant other doesn't want would make things worse. It's the lack of alignment that causes the problem and, until that alignment is corrected, you can't know if more effort is actually what the other person would like.

ordu2• 4 years ago

to think of it as a skill "you are doing" instead of a mutual process that advances only at the shared pace you are getting into manipulation.

A mutual process needs some coordinated actions from both sides. If I'm unable to play my part, then there will be no mutual process. I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but it is the next stage of education on "how to make friends". When you have skill to make friends, then you can think of how to apply it mutually. If you have no such skill, then all your argument about manipulation just doesn't apply.

If you want something else, you gotta let others know somehow!

There is a question of how to do it. I do not know, for example. Have no idea. Several times different people tried to make friends with me, I tried to be open for it, and it didn't work out.

aeturnum4• 4 years ago

I don't know if I quite said it before - but I don't think a relationship just "succeeds" or "fails." A good relationship occupies the "right" amount of space in each person's life for that pair of people and also is, for each person, part of a larger healthier whole. There are many variables in this balancing act and we are all getting it at least a little 'wrong' all of the time.

Generally, you can make any relationship closer by investing more time into it. But that means you risk getting stuck in trying to make a relationship fill a spot it won't ever fill. Often, that relationship will be "better" if you can accept less intimacy and hold it less tightly. There are people who can be extremely important to us, even if we can't take too much intimacy.

Several times different people tried to make friends with me, I tried to be open for it, and it didn't work out.

Yah! Of course! This is always possible. Sometimes relationships just don't work for either person, despite everyone's best efforts. In those situations, the kindest thing we can do is gently invest less energy into the dynamic. Sometimes you can find an unexpected new relationship that's less than 'friendship' but still valuable and compelling. If you think about it like someone did something wrong, it's becomes more discouraging than it has to be.

kelnos7• 4 years ago

Calling "Growing closer" a skill

My take on it that the skill isn't the act of growing closer itself, but the actions you can take to elevate conversation above small talk and see if there could be greater compatibility there for a closer relationship. And that latter part is maybe a big part of the skill: I agree that just having a deep/vulnerable conversation isn't going to give you a close friendship, but I think that's a necessary step on the path. Determining whether or not -- from those deeper conversations -- whether or not a deeper friendship is going to develop is also a skill worth mastering.

(Maybe the author did actually mean what you thought, in which case I agree with you... and so I like my explanation better.)

balaji12• 4 years ago

work and attention

Attention is such a good choice of word. Attention with memory is key. I feel memory/remembering is the work, because we are constantly flooded with new things all day. Otherwise, once I am out of a conversation, I am into another app or meeting.

accidentally leading others to believe they want a deeper relationship than they have the capacity to maintain.

Damn that's true. Though I think our instinct is to try to connect on a deeper level, and with just good intentions. We can be good friends with a lot of people. And be close to very few. That's ok, and better to be clear.

thenerdhead3• 4 years ago

Serious question.

For those who have had close friends in their late teens to mid 20s, do you still have close friends after a significant life event like getting a job, getting married, moving to a new city, having a baby, etc?

I relate with the author of this article in my 20s, but cannot relate at all in my 30s because my life has significantly changed (for the better).

zerkten• 4 years ago

No, but a better answer is probably that the relationships are different. As with most HN advice it's completely contextual.

Close friends from before the transitionary period are still people I can connect with to a large extent. Not all are people I'd now want to spend a lot of time with because time is so limited.

Making new close friends is something I've somewhat given up on based on the fact that I've moved so far away, now have had to prioritize work and family, etc. I suspect there will be fleeting opportunities as the kids create introductions and I perhaps get more time for hobbies/volunteering.

I think things are very dependent on circumstances. People commenting and giving advice only have knowledge of X circumstances, but there are really Y or X number of them out there. This means that I get left feeling like I'm doing something wrong, missing out, etc. based on how others describe life. Anxiety and other mental challenges affect how I feel too. Things aren't that bad when I actually take a big step back and think about life though.

nonameiguess• 4 years ago

Nope. I had plenty of close friends through my mid-20s, but now at 42, after moving away to another state, I still believe we have enough accumulated trust and love that I'd give those people just about about anything, and feel comfortable sharing anything, and I'm reasonably sure they all feel the same way, but we haven't kept in regular contact. I'm not a phone conversation person and never have been, and quit all social media years ago to preserve my sanity. Regular visits aren't feasible because of the distance and the visits I can manage are ones in which I prioritize seeing my family over anyone else.

I don't have any serious complaints. I'm not lonely and people aren't super-important to me. I've got my wife and my cats and that's enough. I have no idea what I'd do today to make new friends that would ever be anywhere near what my old friends were. Those were people I saw day-in and day-out for years since we were in school together, we shared major life events and formative experiences that can't ever be repeated, and spent a level of time together that simply isn't feasible for so many reasons, from having a full-time job to having to prioritize time with my wife to no longer having the capacity and energy to go out and stay up late on any kind of regular basis.

Again, I have no complaints, but I don't see how it's realistic or possible in most cases to ever make friends as an adult that are as close as the friends you make and maintain throughout childhood and teenage years, other than a life partner or partners you actually live with.

jrochkind13• 4 years ago

Wait, you're saying you can't relate anymore because you don't have close friends anymore and don't want any? Or because you have close friends naturally so don't need to analyze how to do it?

I am older than my 20s, and have moved jobs and cities a couple times, but I don't have a spouse or kids. I still have some close friends (including one or two i've had since my 20s and one or two i've met subsequently), but would personally like more and closer. I'm not sure if that answers your questions!

My guess is a lot of people in our particular society in the USA stop having close friends when they have a spouse and kids... but I don't this this is true in all places and times, and I personally suspect it's not very healthy and people would be doing so much better in many ways, including unexpected ones in ways people don't realize would be affected by this, if they had more non-family intimacy. But whatever works!

thenerdhead3• 4 years ago

That I had close friends until I got older and had more responsibilities in life. That I relate with how to do it, but I don't have time to do it because it is not as important to me at this stage in my life.

inkcapmushroom• 4 years ago

For me the only close friends I have kept through my 20's and many life-changing events are ones I made in high school, and mostly because of Discord. Being able to virtually hang out has made it possible for me to maintain relationships after a move which I wouldn't have been able to keep up before.

sabellito• 4 years ago

I've kept 3 very close friends (they don't know each other), and now we live in 3 different continents. One I met in my teens, another in my early twenties, and another when I was almost 30. We're all almost 40 now and keep daily contact via text and have a call once every 2 months or so. They're the people I ask advice to and share good and bad news.

There's no secret to it, we're just on eachother's minds and ping one another frequently.

SoftTalker5• 4 years ago

Nope. I had my closest friendships in high school and college. I haven't talked to any of those people in 30+ years (nor have any of them reached out to me). Careers, relocations, families happened. Life has forks like this where paths separate and never rejoin.

And no, I didn't make new friends in the same way. Being young with a lot of time and no responsibilities doesn't ever come back.

jrochkind13• 4 years ago

I love this, it's very well-written.

For some people this kind of thing comes naturally/intuitively without necessarily being explicit about it; and for some people being explicit about it won't actually work anyway.

But for those like me who like and find helpful analyzing it and being explicit about it, this is very well-done!

andreyk2• 4 years ago

Very brief summary: a personal anecdote about forming good friends followed up by advice for how to have better conversions (vulnerability, curiosity) and how to meet more people who will become friends (meet people but filter out most of them, take initiative with following up), and lastly how to deepen friendships.

As someone who has a fair number of close friends, I think this is a good post with lots of solid advice. And it's written well! Personally I've been lucky to just naturally meet and form my best friends over time, but I definitely think taking initiative and following up are important to maintaining a close friendship.

A general point in this post I also like is that making and keeping close friends may require work and energy, rather than being something that life just throws your way. I intentionally try to periodically message friends, come out to places they live, just generally keep in touch; as one gets older people move about and it's harder to maintain your closest friendships, but it is possible!

Last comment: this is a very pragmatic and analytical post with a lot of discussions of things you can do, and not much discussion of how you should feel. I'd add this - just CARE. Appreciate the people in your life and let that appreciation guide you.

ngold2• 4 years ago

pro tip. Don't be a flake like me.

ngold2• 4 years ago

don't be a bummer

erdos4d2• 4 years ago

This guy should move to scandinavia, he'd learn that conversation is cheap. I can't tell you how many times I've spoken to a scandie for literally hours just to have it come to nothing. No new friend, not really even an acquaintance, it was all just talk and meant nothing at all.

SoftTalker5• 4 years ago

Scandinavians are very friendly and pleasant people on the surface, but it's hard to penetrate that surface into deeper friendship. To really get into someone's inner circle of close friends you pretty much have to have grown up with them or known them for years.

comprev• 4 years ago

Same with the Dutch and Belgians. The countries are so small and families rarely move very far from each other. This makes it very hard as an outsider to break into friendship circles as often they've known each other since pre-school.

viburnum• 4 years ago

This is way too complicated. All you have do is show up to the same place regularly to places where other people also show up regularly. School, work, dog park, gym, etc.

wpwpwpw• 4 years ago

I agree with this. From my experience, people who feel lonely (and feel saddened by that) tend to become overly worried about what others think of them and obsessed on making an impression. That usually leads to them becoming an echo chamber of themselves and starting to act "artificially", which is noticed by others as not being authentic. I'd say that sharing, which arises from mutual interest, is the cornerstone. So being in places where people authentically share mutual interests and cooperate is a great place to make friends. Sports associations (team sports, climbing, hiking, with the added bonus of physical activity being awesome for mental health) community centers with activities (chess, musical groups, dancing)...

dragonsky67• 4 years ago

I think so. Seems so many people want a "how to" on every aspect of their lives. Friendship should not be something you try to design or have a strategy for, I can think of nothing that would drive me away faster.

Friendship happens, if through shared experience, interest or just chance. True friendship doesn't happen because you woke up one morning and "Make a Friend" was at the top of your todo list for the day.

GeorgeDewar• 4 years ago

I think for many, perhaps even most people, you're right and friendship happens organically without deliberate intent.

Some people just do not work this way - maybe it's being somewhere on the autism spectrum, but whatever the cause, some people need to take a more methodical approach to do this.

I think what this blog post shows is that such an approach really can result in true friendships.

It's a bit like online dating I suppose. That idea is abhorrent to some (or used to be - the stigma has reduced considerably over time), but when it works, there's nothing preventing the resulting relationship from being as genuine as one that started any other way.

batiudrami• 4 years ago

Showing up definitely helps but in my experience the transition from acquaintance to friend comes through a bonding moment where there was an emotional connection - either struggling through or achieving something together or vulnerability from one or both of you.

There are a lot of bad things about drugs and alcohol but one of the reasons I like them is they tend to enable/accelerate these moments.

kelnos7• 4 years ago

Showing up isn't enough. You have to engage with people, and push past mundane surface-level topics of conversation. And after that, you have to follow up and schedule time outside of whatever place/activity where you met.

I know plenty of people who go to work or a gym or whatever every day, but don't come away from it with close friendships.

pessimizer2• 4 years ago

That's quite obviously not true, because almost everyone shows up to places regularly, and some people fail to make friends. Unless you assume that all the people who are having trouble making friends are jobless independently-wealthy agoraphobic shut-ins.

the_only_law3• 4 years ago

Every few years I get this urge to “start over” somewhere new where I’m going to turn everything about my life around. Whenever I’ve tried to make friends or be social, it seems to fall into this almost cyclical pattern.

I’ll find a group of people who hang out and join that. Tend to make pretty good inroads early, and people seem to like me.

Then over time the group slowly starts to fracture into “cliques” none of which I eventually fall into. It starts to feel at some point that I’m no more than a court jester, there to make opportune jokes to entertain the other cliques. People care less about what I have to say and I guess any eccentricities about me that intrigue people get old quick.

Sooner or later there’s a big drama caused by some petty disagreement and the group fractures along those cliques. Sometimes reconciliation is tried, but by that point no one’s schedules line up, or half the people are always sick, etc.

OmarShehata• 4 years ago

I've seen this happen but it's really interesting that you say this is cyclic/it always falls into this pattern for you.

Have you found that reaching out to individual people in the group to be worthwhile?

I often find it hard to make/maintain meaningful connections in these groups (and the "people care less about what I have to say" etc feels relatable), but I've had great success with just asking individuals like "wanna grab coffee/lunch sometime" either 1 on 1 or in a group of 3. It can be kind of awkward, and there's always a sense of "Oh you guys were hanging out? Why didn't you let me/XYZ know!" but I just embrace that and it's been a much better way for me I think to make close friends.

tinglymintyfrsh• 4 years ago

Disclaimer: no unsolicited advice please.

I'm old(er) mid-40's, single, no kids, and never married. I don't have much family or close friends. Hookup culture is de rigueur but it doesn't interest me. Where I'm at, there isn't a context to meet people and most random people in public around keep to themselves and treat me like I'm invisible. I do volunteering but that also doesn't go anywhere.

If you have to constantly take the social initiative, then you're carrying the relationship. Sometimes absence is better. Instead of dwelling on loneliness or self-pity, keeping productively busy seems a better alternative.

I'd like to have a family and kids, but an inability to find and make friends precludes that. The thought of getting old alone, having no one to check-in on me, no one to bury me, no one to care that I'm gone, and no one at a funeral seems depressing. I don't see how I won't end up in a "potter's field" somewhere.

standardUser4• 4 years ago

"Hookup culture is de rigueur but it doesn't interest me."

That's media bullshit that people really like to believe. There is no shortage of people looking for relationships.

TheOtherHobbes2• 4 years ago

There is no shortage of people hoping and dreaming about relationships.

The number of people willing to move out of their comfort zone to make a good relationship possible - of any type - is much smaller.

afr0ck3• 4 years ago

It breaks my heart to see Western people living such lives. I love the West for so many reasons, but the social construction is a complete broken mess. Family and community is completely destroyed. People live and work only for themselves. The amount of loneliness and isolation is just mind blowing and unbearable. IMO, it's a selfish lifestyle. People who manage to make great success (due to a combination of lack, intelligence, hard work and sometimes just beauty) can live very good lives but the rest are doomed to live miserable, lonely lives and no gives a shit about them until they die. Very sad. I wish you happiness and fulfillment (whatever they are for you).

valarauko3• 4 years ago

What are you contrasting the "West" with? As a person who lived most of his life in an Asian country with a very strong familial and social construct, I can say that there were no shortage of lonely, broken people there - we as a society just did a better job of hiding it. Perhaps the sense of failure and isolation may have slightly different causes, but that is not to say that Western society is somehow uniquely broken.

matai_kolila• 4 years ago

Eh, I don't think family ties are "completely destroyed" in the West, we're just not as into our family as some "Eastern" cultures (I'm thinking of India in particular) can be.

Remember, a lot of the "West" (at least my exposure to it, the USA) is a conglomeration of other cultures; we have many Eastern cultures here as well!

Many of my friends have large families that they're much more entangled with than I'd opt into with my own family.

I could not live with my mother again, though I love her very much. I imagine many Indian men would love to have that option, all else being equal, though realistically they simply don't.

The freedom to choose is nice, but a great many of us "Westerners" choose to stay close to our families. That's what freedom is; the ability to opt into culture, rather than be forced into it.

granshaw3• 4 years ago

As someone who moved from SE Asia awhile ago, agree 100%:

  - Parents can't wait to kick their kids out once they're college age
  - A societal sense of embarressment if you're *still* living with your parents
  - No night-time social options to speak of unless you want to drink/party (everything closes early - no midnight cafes or the like)
  - Macho and bully culture all the way through high school leading to polar extremes in kids' social circles
  - Everything has been financialized. There is no community to help out with _anything_. You have to pay for _everything_
  - Suburbia abound, both kids and parents can't walk anywhere – kids are trapped in their homes and parents become defacto Uber drivers
  - There's this weird sense of "keeping boundaries", making it hard to make friends with your neighbors etc
  - Domestic help (eg live-in maids) are very expensive relative to cost-of-living and relative to some Asian countries, and kindof culturally taboo – parents are expected to parent completely on their own

valarauko3• 4 years ago

Hookup culture is de rigueur

I don't think that's generally true, especially if you're looking to date around your own age. Some in the age bracket may be averse to marriage, but not a relationship in general.

mrcrumb1• 4 years ago

This line of thinking seems pretty prevalent but the way I see it, there's no such thing as carrying the relationship. If you're the one with the social need, the onus is on you to get that need filled. This generally means doing more work than others but it's not on behalf of them. It would be nice if other people filled our needs for us, but that's generally just wishful thinking.

kleer001• 4 years ago

:Not advice, but many questions and some sharing my experience:

Feel free to answer or not as you like.

I'm old(er) mid-40's

I was in my early 40s when I found a lovely mate, married, and reproduced.

Hookup culture is de rigueur

What makes you say that? What geographic region is that? Is that just the kids or those in your demographic?

Where I'm at, there isn't a context to meet people

Are you in a place without personal ads?

I do volunteering but that also doesn't go anywhere.

Is that volunteering at the same place or different ones? What kind of volunteering?

I'd like to have a family and kids,

Do you want to make your own kids? Are you willing to be a step parent?

but an inability to find and make friends precludes that.

That's not my experience. There's popular advice that one should marry one's friend. But in my experience one can just look for a marriage partner and leap frog that nonsense.

The thought of getting old alone

Ah, so essentially human, thank you for sharing. I too have that at my core.

kelnos7• 4 years ago

If you have to constantly take the social initiative, then you're carrying the relationship.

I don't think that's true, and the article does talk about this a bit. Relationships are never actually 50/50. If you're expecting that, you're gonna have a bad time.

But really, think about outcomes more than trivial details: if you are the one who always has to be the one to reach out, but you end up having a good time when you talk or meet up with the person, then isn't that still a good outcome?

But ultimately everyone gets to make their own choice, of course. Would you rather have no friends or family, or would you rather have to put in more effort than the other person at some aspects of maintaining a friendship/relationship? Ideally it shouldn't be this stark dichotomy, but if it is, you gotta make your choice.

(Also, "no unsolicited advice please" is a weird thing to say when you're posting about a personal situation on a public forum. If you don't want to take this as advice, then take this as disagreement with what you're saying, and my expression of frustration that your choice seems to be "be alone and sad" when the alternative is "put in a little more effort than the other person".)

xyzelement4• 4 years ago

Apologies if this is in the category of unsolicited advice. I noticed that you had a submission describing a similar problem set in the work setting, so I am seeing a theme. It sounds like you are in a lonely place and are hoping for something better.

There's no magic to it but I can recommend some things that work very well for me.

First, do you have a curiosity about people? The folks you're working with, or folks at your volunteering events - do you strike up a conversation? Do you know where people are from, what their families are like, what their hobbies are, what they think and worry about? I don't mean to encourage you to engage in robotic small talk, but asking you whether these things are actually of interest to you? Wanting to know someone is the first step of a relationship.

Assuming you have the interest, ask whether you've done anything to learn these things? If you realize that there are 30 people you could have known these things about but don't - why not? Are you very shy? Do you think people will think you're rude? Do you not know how to chat? Answer this for yourself and seek resources on-line for how to close those gaps. I went from a shy mush-mouth to a pretty good shmoozer in a few years, it's possible.

If you decide that you actually don't have an interest in people (like, you genuinely don't care what anyone's life is like) then there's a strong disconnect between than and the desire to have a family/kids/friendship. If you have the ability to, seek some sort of talk therapy to explore this question. Chances are there's some "wound" that's blocking your ability to want to connect with people if this is the case.

Finally, you sound like someone who closes doors before they are even open. I suspect when you say "hookup culture..." what you are really saying is "I have a reason for why I am not on dating apps." When you say "people treat me like I am invisible" - you are writing off an entire town as not being interested in you, which gives you an excuse to not try to connect with them (yet, somehow they had all met each other - so it's probably your vibes - and that's in your control to change). If you really believe that your location is a problem that's preventing you from having relationships, then move. If you have a desire for family and kids and you think that's not possible in your location, why are you there? (and, if you are about to give yourself an excuse as to why that's impossible, pay attention to that too)

Shocka1• 4 years ago

Solid "unsolicited" (odd thing to say) advice here, especially in the third paragraph. Another description for this I think is simply being genuine. Being genuinely interested in other people's lives, their families, and the stuff they like to do goes a long way and will tear the layers off people. In my experience, learning this combined with listening will have you quite possibly wanting less friends.

spyckie2• 4 years ago

Some people are too, too risk averse. They subconsciously avoid, not just pain, but the possibility of discomfort. It's not just one or two actions - it's their filter that they see the world through.

Pain avoidance is often disguised as disinterest, but really it's just a cost function to minimize the possibility of feeling embarrassment, awkwardness, discomfort, heated discussion, or emotional distress. Sometimes this is personality related; other times, this is a result of an aggressive, hurtful, or manipulative upbringing.

I have a friend like this and he is very hard to be friends with. He hit this point where he was stuck in an unhappy life situation (have few good friends, can't find love, etc) but vehemently opposed anything slightly uncomfortable that will move him from his unhappy cage.

What's happening subconsciously is a deep seated trauma/fear freezing him in place. For my friend, he was bullied as a kid, and his parents also were emotionally angry and abusive. He grew up with the fear that out of nowhere, a seemingly trivial sentence or action could send him into a world of confusion and hurt.

Today, meeting new people and sharing emotions is a giant minefield to him. But most people just see him as stubborn, whiny, hard to socialize with and doesn't listen to advice.

But it's hard to be his friend not because of his awkward socials but because he complains about his distress so much but doesn't do anything about it... for years. As someone who wants to solve problems and make progress, it is very frustrating to see him move so slowly.

He is very, very slow to go out from his comfort zone, even just a little bit.

throw903290• 4 years ago

You obviously care about your friend, but I do not think you really understand his position.

For some people company is "nice to have", something like owning a sports car. Maintaining friendship costs energy and has real risks (being used, emotional blackmail...). And benefits for short, obese, bald guy are really not that great.

leobg4• 4 years ago

Our neighbor is in his 70s. No kids, no wife, no family. Spends his time watching crypto videos on YouTube and gardening in summer. He is polite and helpful, but we try to avoid getting into conversations with him because those end up becoming monologues of him telling us about the apocalypse.

Living alone today is easy. It’s also comfortable, because you save yourself all the drama and overhead of having to deal with another irrational human being. It’s also easy to feel superior for living this way, telling yourself that you are rejecting a sick society. The thing is, with nobody knowing you intimately and giving you feedback, you can end up being totally delusional and not ever realize it.

leobg4• 4 years ago

Also, an unsolicited book recommendation: Hesse, Steppenwolf. You may recognize yourself in it. I did.

renewiltord• 4 years ago

I have lots of friends at varying levels of closeness - from folks in a shared group chat to folks who helped clothe me when I couldn't. I find them easy to make, honestly.

But the most interesting relevant experience I had recently was when a friend of mine suggested using these couples' cards just to get to know each other, skipping the explicitly romantic ones. I barely knew her except as a sister of another friend of mine, but we did a couple of these every day for fun for a week and we ended up quite close at the end of it.

It's stuff like "what situations make you anxious?", "what is a time you were really happy?", "what things do you do for me which you wish I appreciated more?". This lends some credence to the idea that questions around vulnerability help quite a bit. I've always been quite intentional about making friends, but this rapid-bootstrap is literally the fastest it's happened to me.

l33tbro3• 4 years ago

This is kind of sad. It just feels like OP has built this enormous apparatus over some emotional void they've picked up in their development. Making friends just isn't that hard for the vast majority of people.

If you're having to use reverse engineering and problem solving to form emotional connections, then you might want to spend the time in therapy and working through what caused you to be emotionally stunted.

ptato• 4 years ago

You're making a lot of assumptions. Sometimes a blog post just isn't meant for you.

l33tbro3• 4 years ago

I'm not sure how I'm making an assumption. They admit they were unable to form emotional connections prior to this convoluted methodology they've developed.

alocasia-1• 4 years ago

Therapy can literally just be talking through the same kinds of mechanisms as described here (with the plan to apply them to real life). Source: it was for me. How are they going to become second nature if you don't practice?

kelnos7• 4 years ago

Making friends just isn't that hard for the vast majority of people.

Is that actually true? Things I've read seem to suggest that, at least for men, forming close friendships is hard, especially as we get older.

I'm feeling it, too. I'm 41, and with the exception of my partner, I don't think I've made a close friend in nearly a decade.

(Also, note that this is talking about close friendships, not just people to hang out with.)

But really, this "apparatus" seems to work for this person, and he seems to be happy with the results, so who are we to criticize? If others who also have trouble making friends can find this useful, all the better. If not, that's fine too.

archagon• 4 years ago

Why are you so weirdly judgemental/insecure(?) about this very earnest post?

Making friends just isn't that hard for the vast majority of people.

Good for you and the vast majority of people, I guess...?

l33tbro3• 4 years ago

Because I find gamifying connection sad.

technological• 4 years ago

I feel it is relatively easy to make friends during engineering (under grad) when there is no financial responsibilities and you have lot of patience, high level of tolerance. When compared to age where you have more financial responsibility and certain age where you no longer have patience to let go some of things which you do not like in other person. It comes to point where I feel why do I need to compromise on so many things to make friends.

cat_plus_plus• 4 years ago

Screw vulnerability. Of course, I have problems like everyone else. But I have given each one a lot of thought and decided what's the best thing I can do right now, or that there is nothing further than I can do. I don't really need advice or practical help, it's a matter of me allocating my limited energy and willpower. On giving side, there is also so much I can offer to someone outside my immediate family. And the last thing I want to do is to pay MORE attention to downsides of my life by talking about them to others.

What I really wish I could have is camaraderie in personal growth, which for some reason seems to be impossible in Silicon Valley. For example, I have been taking photography classes, but when I ask other students if they want to go on a hike, shoot pictures together and improve our technique, nobody is ever interested. I can understand that women might think I am hitting on them, even after I mentioned I am married and have kids, but not even old guys? I don't know if it's something about my appearance or mannerisms or if people only live through organized events and have no interest in just hanging out with others based on mutual interests. Maybe they also outsource their vulnerabilities to professional therapy? :-)

Now of course nothing is black and white. Being able to give someone an unfiltered account of one's day is a testament of quality of the relationship and reassurance that if I faced a truly overwhelming disaster in future I might have some help handling it. But overall, I would rather expand my life than dwell on aspects of it that either can not be changed or are already being worked on.

fedeb95• 4 years ago

Interesting approach, however I'd like some more data on it before trying it. Intuitively I'd go for the "by chance" route

mpetrovich• 4 years ago

The systems angle mentioned later in the article may seem a bit …engineered, but it works!

I’ve moved a ton in my life, and I have an annoying habit of losing touch with friends when I move away. Out of sight, out of mind, ya know?

Anyway, to combat this annoying habit, I started scheduling monthly phone/video calls with each of those friends. It’s been a game changer, especially as folks have kids and busy lives.

photochemsyn• 4 years ago

Perhaps I'm an outlier, but having to sit around making small talk and sharing personal life experiences with a like-minded cohort is literally a nightmare scenario for me. On the other hand, I love working with people on collaborative effort-intensive projects, working toward shared goals and so on (but I don't have much interest in getting involved in their personal or family lives afterwards). Also, I may be unusual in that I don't suffer from loneliness, there's always something interesting to get involved in or work on. Is this a very uncommon type, I wonder?

Additionally, financial restrictions on activities are a reality for many people these days, ruling out a large number of extracurricular activities that would be fun and interesting to share with others. When one's economic future is on the line, things like friendships become luxuries that might have to fall by the wayside, as people have to move in search of employment, and budgets get tighter. People in a college environment are often not under such immediate pressures.

standardUser4• 4 years ago

"making small talk and sharing personal life experiences"

It sounds odd to me to combine these concepts in the same sentence. Sharing personal life experiences is arguable a necessary part of building deep friendships, and it's often a vulnerable and intimate act. Small talk is none of that, if not the opposite.

TheOtherHobbes2• 4 years ago

But it is a prelude and a warm-up exercise.

No one - well, hardly anyone - jumps straight into deeply personal conversation with a stranger without it.

proc0• 4 years ago

A key mindset I use when forming connections via conversation is: “If we aren’t both excited about this conversation, do something differently”

This is my problem. Friendship seems to be a series of entertaining experiences. People seem to value others based on their entertainment value, but then when discussed it's always about some other warm, fuzzy feeling. The best friendships seem to happen as a kid, when you hold no judgements, and also outside forces out of your control decide who you are exposed to (i.e. where you go to school). As an adult, the judgement list is way too long for people to commit their time any longer than a short conversation. It's no longer about being yourself, being accepted, and going with flow. Instead friendship as an adult is a chore, with responsibilities and expectations, which unlike a job are all implicit and hard to navigate.

standardUser4• 4 years ago

I'm in my 40's and I have a lot of close friends, both in my city (mostly newer friends) and around the country/world (mostly older friendships).

My trick is, I cheat. I'm happily single, live alone and have no children. That gives me the luxury of doing the heavy lifting in my friendships. I travel a lot and most of those trips are to stay with friends in their homes or to meet them at a third destination. That's been the most effective way to stay very close to my friends, as well as to become close to their spouses and kids. I understand most people can't do this because of their own family obligations. But maybe it's something people with families could do just once or twice a year to visit people important to them?

Beyond that, I'm usually the one to start group chats or send memes on social media or schedule video chats. Sometimes it's a chore, but usually it's effortless for me. And the close friends I've maintained to this point are with people who are usually very eager and able to stay in touch on their end. The others have fell by the wayside over the years. And some I have consciously excluded from my life when I realized they were bad friends.

I'd also add that, as a man, I find that women make better friends then men, especially past our 20's, and I'd encourage all men to consider finding and building more non-romantic relationships with women.

shepherdjerred3• 4 years ago

building more non-romantic relationships with women.

I completely agree; I've always preferred being friends with women, but in my opinion it's not easy to do.

Things sometimes get complicated quickly if there's attraction on either side which often happens to at least one side if you're close friends. Even without romantic feelings, things get weird/awkward if either party is in a relationship or married.

boring_twenties2• 4 years ago

Complicated doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm in this situation now and it's basically ruining my life. Or maybe it's ruined already, because I see no possible way out -- not even just ending the friendship.

Not only is the friendship very close, but inextricably linked with far and away my favorite activity in the world. One that has brought by far the most joy to my life, and one that I have given up a lot to pursue.

I don't even know how I could have predicted or avoided it, either. At first glance, I never would have guessed I would end up feeling any attraction to her at all. In actual fact, what I ended up with are feelings I could have never even imagined I was capable of feeling for someone (I'm 40).

The only thing I could have done differently, I'm afraid, would have been to make damn sure to never get so close to any woman at all.

PuppyTailWags2• 4 years ago

I wonder if we can learn something from homosexual people in this. I don't often see gay guys cutting off their straight friendships because they're one-sidedly attracted for example in the same way straight men swear off any woman.

mikesabat2• 4 years ago

I agree with a lot of this comment, but honestly having kids is just another connection point with other people - another reason to form a friendship.

A few months ago I organized a Dad's Drinks at a local bar. I walked there with a neighbor and realized that on every block there was at least one dad chilling in his house that wanted to come out. Having kids builds a habit to stay home, but isn't always a necessity - especially once the kids are 3 years old or older.

rr888• 4 years ago

Location makes a big difference too. I've always lived in big cities in areas with lots of expats and transient people. Its very easy to make friends. In suburbs its tougher, especially in areas where people grew up still know neighbors from elementary school.

The other thing is I've always had room mates - its a lot cheaper and more social. I never really wanted to live by myself.

blobbers• 4 years ago

I think the approach in this article is great… for some people.

It really doesn’t apply once you have a lot of responsibilities and limited time. Commitments can quickly eat up your time, whether it’s caring for elderly, kids, a family or all of the above, on top of career.

As the author mentioned, most of these techniques don’t apply to people you need to be around fairly regularly, which tends to be almost all the people you meet once said responsibilities are established.

acqbu• 4 years ago

He writes and thinks like an INTJ. I bet he is one of us.

devknight1• 4 years ago

save

VBprogrammer3• 4 years ago

I always considered myself someone who made friends easily. In fact when my partner and I met she found it hard to keep track of my various social circles. Friends from school, friends from my first stint at university, friends from my second stint at university, friends from places I used to work etc. She on the other hand had one or two close friends.

Since having kids I've found it much more difficult. It's literally a once a month thing to get a couple of hours to go out for a beer. I enjoy meeting up with a couple of guys I meet through prenatal classes but they are all in the same boat and making time for a new friend when their free time is so limited is challenging.

I also had the profoundly upsetting situation of losing touch with one of my closest friends due to some poorly chosen words while I was in a poor mental state following some stressful experiences after our first was born. Interestingly, this also meant I lost touch with many of the people I had friends in common with on his side.

Weirdly, for my partner her social circles have exploded. She now is very close with a small group from her prenatal classes, she's also converted a couple of her ex-work colleagues into actual friends, many of them by them having similar aged children.

fleddr• 4 years ago

TLDR: Ask people questions, genuine deep ones.

People like questions. It allows them to talk about their favorite topic: themselves.

Don't read that as selfish, it isn't. It's just the realization that any interest beyond the superficial is surprising to people. It's sadly very unusual.

quickthrower2• 4 years ago

I love the article, and the experiment. He is clearly way ahead at 17 than I am at > 40, which amazes me. I have had a lot of bad experience with friends, so that has hampered me since and put me off and made me weary of having friends. I also don't do friend things well - I don't find the energy to reply to messages and emails. I do like "going out for a drink / coffee" type things, as well as doing something together, like going to he gym. I might try this out though, as it sounds good.

keepquestioning• 4 years ago

Wait, they are 17?

Oh god.

jdkee• 4 years ago

"What's fascinating is why that disconnect happens. Since the 1950s, sociologists have identified three factors that need to be in place for friendships to take hold.

They are:

• Proximity: You're around each other regularly.

• Unplanned interactions: You see each other even without putting an appointment on a calendar.

• Privacy: You're in a space where you can exchange confidences."

See https://www.businessinsider.com/things-that-help-people-make...

hoseja• 4 years ago

Each one of these has been destroyed haha. Surely nothing bad will come of this haha.

coldtea2• 4 years ago

I find it hard to introspect on exactly what the internal experience of past Neel was like, but I think the core was that trying wasn’t available as a possible action. That I spent much of my life doing what felt socially conventional, normal and expected, for the role I saw myself in. And ‘go out of your way to form emotional connections’ wasn’t part of that.

The whole intro part of the post sounds a lot like ASD 1 musings, including the approach regarding the solution...

mjfl• 4 years ago

They are numbered now?

coldtea2• 4 years ago

Yeah, three tiers, I think the old term for 1 was much better...

bogdanoff_2• 4 years ago

I often find myself in a situation where someone is monologuing and I'm listening but I'm not very interested and I don't know how to pull out. I wonder if anyone can offer advice.

(I haven't finished reading the article yet; if I find an interesting answer from the article, I'll reply to my own post)

mikesabat2• 4 years ago

This is a great post. A few immediate thoughts.

Friends become harder to make (mostly for men) as you get older and have children. It simply takes more effort and you'll have less time, but having friends that you see regularly is probably more important when you are 40+. It's worth the effort and easier to systemize.

Following up & reaching out can be a big blocker. I just decided that I'm always the one to reach out and I even built myself an Airtable tracker to do this.

Vulnerability is trending up (for lack of a better description). Writing this post was vulnerable and it's #1 on HN. Finding the right way to open up, make it interesting and not seem needy is an very valuable skill.

floppydiskette• 4 years ago

Why mostly for men?

michaelteter• 4 years ago

We often don't consider the impact our current age has on our experience.

Making close friends is easier the younger we are. When we are young we have fewer responsibilities, and we have fewer hangups.

As we get older, we have old life experiences which stand out and leave lasting behavioral impacts. Plus, we have real and immediate responsibilities which have priority - but which we may not announce all the time. The other party may not know the circumstances; they merely don't get especially magnetic interactions from us.

My caution to those of us who are analytical and want to understand how life works is that we do not discount the significance of age and circumstance on matters of friendship and human connection.

Minor edits for clarity :)

robertwt7• 4 years ago

tbh I feel like it's much easier for me to make friends when I was younger (5-10 years ago). Many of my high school friends are still in touch right now back in my home country. It is quite hard though when you're an immigrant in a foreign country, I don't feel like I have close friends here although I have decided to settle in this country.

esparrohack2• 4 years ago

If you want to meet new people, get a hobby or go to a bar. Like attracts like.

It’s all instinctual. Friends, enemies, danger, etc. Noticr how effective your experiment was. Did you try the same approach at a dance club? Why not?

No such thing as close friends. Mutual benefit is all that matters unless there’s blood relation.

“The young have yet to learn the blessings of selfishness”.

wodenokoto• 4 years ago

How old is the author? Going in I thought this was about how to form close friends into adulthood (like 30s and 40s)

But after reading I’m thinking maybe this guy is still in college.

I think the cards for forming deep friendships are way better stacked in early 20s college than say, a work from home mid 30s professional.

xxEightyxx• 4 years ago

Making friends is easy, keeping friends and growing the relationships are difficult. I am mostly introverted but have periods of extreme extroversion. I'm 34 but all of my best friends have passed away from various accidents over the past decade.

I feel like a shell of my former self where all I do or have a desire to do is work. The only person I consider my friend is my former boss who, after losing his wife to ALS, I did everything I could to be there and support him because he took a chance on me by offering me a job that ultimately has led to a great career in the tech field.

I've noticed my personality has slipped away, I no longer have hobbies or anything of real passion in my life anymore and thus there's nothing I have to offer another person in a relationship.

It's incredibly lonely and a poor place to be yet I really don't know how to escape it. Most other dudes my age have families or many of them only care to go out to breweries which I don't enjoy.

There's still a bit of hope deep down that all isn't over yet and a ray of sunshine can still propagate itself somewhere, sometime.

ArekDymalski• 4 years ago

there's nothing I have to offer another person in a relationship.

I think that the most valuable (and appreciated) thing you have to offer are your atttentive ears and your time. That's what many people are looking for in a true, deep friendship.

The real frienship isn't about super-intresting hobbies or flashy personality but really basic things like listening each other, supporting i small or large difficulties etc.

solarmist2• 4 years ago

Yup, exactly like the article mentions emotional support and debugging.

Listening with your whole attention and authentically sharing your experiences is a massive component of any strong friendship.

This is something I've only understood in the last year or two. It took me ~40 years to understand because I was very emotionally neglected as a child, so I never processed my emotions or helped others do the same. From my mid-teens through 35, I thought I didn't have the same emotions as other people.

g4e2t• 4 years ago

Make two lists. One, an activities list. Every time you hear something fun to do, put it on the list. Eventually, after a couple years, you'll have nearly everything. If it's on the cheap side it's a good sign, although expensive things can be fun too.

The second list, is a content consumption list. Basically, building a twitter, but without the timeline. Write down categories you like, and people you like, and get a YouTube subscription so you don't have to have adds. After around 2 years, you should be rarely adding people & content to the list.

My advice: have a separate categories for movies to watch & tv shows to watch & only do so with friends & loved ones. Never watch tv or movies by yourself, would be my advice.

I understand loneliness. It can be a sad journey.

sva_• 4 years ago

and get a YouTube subscription so you don't have to have adds

Nice try, Susan.

hermitcrab• 4 years ago

Sorry to hear that. Recommend you try an activity that involves physical activity and other people. Kayaking, capoeira, rock climbing, whatever feels interesting to you.

solarmist2• 4 years ago

First, let me say this sounds like the first stages of depression. It is VERY difficult to break out of yourself because by this point or a bit further; you start having trouble figuring out why you do anything, so you stop doing almost everything. Once you reach that point, it is very rare to be able to self-diagnose and get on a path to recovery.

This was me a few years ago. At some point, I stopped being authentic and sharing my experience with others (just saying what I was feeling, dis/liked, wanted/didn't want, etc).

There is likely an emotional block or a few in your past that you feel you shouldn't/can't/won't talk about to others (because it will bother them).

"Most other dudes my age have families or many of them only care to go out to breweries which I don't enjoy." <- this is a symptom of an emotional block.

You are saying No to yourself without considering options or asking people for ideas. There are an unlimited number of ways to adjust those situations to work.

This has been true in my personal life since I was about 13, but when it happened in my professional life too, I became very isolated and it wasn't until I read waaaay too much psychology that I started understanding that other people have had the same feelings (nothing I felt/feel is unique; what makes me unique is the combinations of those things) and then telling people bits of it, then more.

To continue that last two weeks ago I forced myself to cry for the first time since I was around 13. Then on Friday, I wanted to cry in the car during a sad song and I let myself. Then Sunday, I felt my sadness damn crumble and I was really sad about random things for a few hours.

It's a long process, but being able to feel sad again will let me WANT help from other people again and WANT to connect with them. It will let me feel lonely, which will motivate me to go find people to be around. Soon, this process will lead to more friends.

In many ways we've forgotten how to be human (as a culture) which actively prevents from connecting with other people in one way or another. I'm on an active journey to learn all the things I didn't learn as a child and I'm still pretty lonely, only one close friend, but I've already gotten past feeling empty inside and not interested in doing things.

wolverine876• 4 years ago

One of the greatest sources of joy in my life are my close friends. People who bring excitement and novelty into my life. Who expose me to new experiences, and ways of seeing the world. Who help me learn, point out my blind spots, and correct me when I am wrong. Who I can lean on when I need support, and who lean on me in turn. Friends who help me grow more into the kind of person I want to be.

This depicts people who provide functions for the author - entertainment, mentoring, advice - not people who share mutual love. Friends can and do provide some functions, but that's not necessary, sufficient, or the point. Love can be and is transformational, but that's not the point.

ge96• 4 years ago

Late 20s (username not for age)

I used to have tiers of friends in HS and a lot in college. I put a lot of effort into it being a glue between people. Overtime I tried less and less to do that. Even pulling inwards like hiding in my room during parties. Now I have 3 close friends. Real friends. Crazy how you change over time.

I had a best friend but one day we just split. My current friends I do most of the engaging. Since I'm always online/wfh. I'm also a loner/not an extrovert. So yeah... I know you could try to change but I am the looks down at the ground, shy person now. Before I was a jackass which could be good because I was not as limited. Now I just have this constant questioning if I did something cringe.

There is a messed up thought. Pretty much all of our interaction is a chat/text. Since we all live in different states/but we were around each other during childhood. Aside from occasional photos... It's almost like you could replace them with bots since the medium is electronic.

RamblingCTO• 4 years ago

This was a great article. I've been doing this for quite a while now, coincidentally. I just noticed that I can get my needs met if I open myself up (I feel lonely all the time). I actually got the feedback quite a lot from a bunch of people/new friends that myself opening up very soon is what drew them and immediately lifted the relationship past the awkward acquaintance-phase, they really dig that. They've been more open as well.

The comments have great advice as well, my key take-aways:

- more female friends as a dude (on that, sometimes takes a bit of work if you're interested in each other beforehand, that's where I'm at right now. a break of two weeks should work magic) - be more initiative, be a friend to other people - show up and stay connected, even if it's not 50:50, which is unlikely anyway

I have social anxiety/depression and have lived most of my life in the basement (literally and figuratively). But since last year or so I'm very extraverted. Not sure how this works, but it does and it's awesome. I just chat to random people (being German!).

The only thing I'm still struggling with is friends who behaved in a way that I didn't like. Instead of talking about it I withdraw from the relationship. But one step after another.

langsoul-com• 4 years ago

Arrange another meetup immediately with anyone you find cool is the best advice.

The chances of meeting up again is slim or unknown , so don't leave it to fate.

alostpuppy• 4 years ago

I was expecting someone to comment on attractiveness and its impact on this. Didn’t find it.

laurex• 4 years ago

This is a structural problem made worse by individualistic social norms. Once you’re out of college, or contexts where there’s “hanging out” that happens without intention, you’re in a situation where you have to do several things: meet people you like, put effort into making plans, and have time together frequently enough to become friends, not just people who like each other. I work on this problem as a builder and I’ll observe that most of the cultural scaffolding that used to support this has deteriorated, see Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam or The Lonely Century by Noreena Hertz for good research on this.

krumpet3• 4 years ago

I've always assumed it was the lack of BIG things happening that limits the depth of friendships. With my childhood friends, we went through so much growing up together (family deaths, relationships, breakups, make ups, divorces, death of classmate, arguments, school, sitting around together for hours just hanging out, etc.)

Those sorts of events really deepen a friendship. I don't experience anything like that with my adult "friends". That limits how friendly we can realistically be. Sure, I've made friends as an adult, but they're just people I know and enjoy seeing once in a while.

Maybe having really deep relationships as a child makes it that much harder to make friends as an adult as they suffer by comparison.

tim-montague• 4 years ago

Making close friends is a big reason why I'm building FourHere (https://www.fourhere.com). After working in Silicon Valley for years, the only people I've been able to somewhat connect with are co-workers. Facebook, TikTok, LinkedIn, etc doesn't actually help you build friendships -- it's a bunch of people you know about, but don't actually meet. And I think that's unhealthy. There are studies that show close friendships, can help us live up to 20 years longer.

thomastjeffery• 4 years ago

I...was too anxious to try...a non-standard action

That's a really familiar type of anxiety.

We tend to put a lot of human interaction into a shared narrative. That's pretty useful, so long as there is a role in that narrative that we can fill, that will bring us to a desired outcome.

As soon as it doesn't, we suddenly become personality responsible for writing the narrative. To become the writer is intensely liberating, but the pen feels heavy and sharp to an unpracticed hand.

And we have a lot of social boundaries that make it feel wrong to be the writer. Who are you to dictate this interaction? Isn't that selfish or greedy? Playing God? Blasphemy!

Social interaction can feel a lot like chess. After years of practice playing the roles of each piece, being a pawn, a bishop, a rook, the queen, all you have left is a king. 50 more moves and you lose! What do you do? Cheat?

But cheating is wrong! It's an unfair advantage! It breaks the rules!

Breaking the rules is actually fine. The rules are nothing more than structure for the game. We don't have to keep playing. The only rules we can't break are thermodynamics.

My first instinct is to make a new game. Better yet, an expansion! I can just put all my desired functionality into an abstraction, and share that with everyone! That's collaboration, right? I have another word: boilerplate.

The scary thing about playing God isn't rejection: it's faith. If someone puts their faith in my narrative, then suddenly I'm responsible for their needs, too.

I don't want the responsibility. I don't want to pay God. But that's selfish in it's own way: someone has to fill the role. If I'm the one putting faith in others, then I'm dumping my own responsibility onto them.

So there is no way around this anxiety. I can't factor it out and abstract it away. I can't place the burden on someone else and expect them to succeed for me. I can't analyze and predict potential outcomes.

There are only two moves left:

1. Wait

2. Act

Option #1 is just what we call the time leading up to Option #2, so the choice has already been made. The only question left is, "When?" "Now" is as good as answer as any other.

---

The thing I have to keep reminding myself is that "yes" is a valid option. It's important to respect "no" when you hear it, but to expect "no" takes all the power and potential out of "yes".

gytdev• 4 years ago

I can relate to the author. When I was ~28yo, I used to do similar things and experimenting socially. The best way to get to know guys is by doing shared activities - basketball, hikes, going to sauna, gym. But it only makes acquaintances. The vulnerability and honesty part can only be achieved 1-on-1 and some people don't like those talks. But it really makes true friends. It can cut through the polite-social-minimizing-risk-bullshit-talk like a knife. It's really hard to have very close friends and having at least one is a true blessing... I never had the fortune of meeting great female friends though. Even though I like talking to them and doing activities that involve many females (dancing salsa, bachata, kizomba).

flippinburgers• 4 years ago

Becomes nearly impossible as you get older and have a family.

gw67• 4 years ago

Great article

amai• 4 years ago

I have a simpler algorithm. I ask three questions:

- Do you have a dog?

- Do you smoke?

- Are you in favor of nuclear energy?

If the answer to any of these questions is yes, you are not going to be a close friend. Everybody else is welcome.

Intentionally making close friends

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