I want to pay for TextMate 2

http://www.marco.org/2011/09/27/textmate-2-free-upgrade

by danielsiders • 15 years ago

454 228 15 years ago

elnetas• 15 years ago

Marco, learn a new editor, don't be lazy and a rockstar.

geoffb• 15 years ago

Why? He's clearly so happy with TextMate that he's willing to fork over more money for version 2 voluntarily. That doesn't sound like someone who's in need of a new editor.

xyzzyb2• 15 years ago

I absolutely agree. TextMate is still my favorite editor. I switched to it from vim in 2007 and have occasionally looked back and around at other editors, but always return to TM.

Everyone on my team also uses TextMate all day, every day. We'd be happy to pay for TextMate 2.

EricBerglund• 15 years ago

As someone who's actually making an analogous opposite switch (learning vim rather than using Sublime), I'd love to hear your reasons for preferring Textmate over vim (I haven't used Textmate myself).

dasil003• 15 years ago

My switch last year was exactly opposite, and I too am curious about this thinking.

The TM2 delay made me realize that I simply can't put my editor eggs in a proprietary basket. The way I see it, mastery of Vim will serve me with a solid baseline for the next 30-40 years of a polyglot programming career. While editors like TextMate and IDEs can create better user experiences in particular languages, nothing smokes arbitrary text manipulation like Vim.

xyzzyb2• 15 years ago

For me, it's the ease of use, the HTML bundle's shortcuts for quickly slicing through markup, the automatic recognition of languages embedded within languages (JavaScript bundle and syntax highlighting automatically activated when the cursor is in JS code inside HTML). The easy macro recording doesn't hurt either.

AckMate solved the only real issue I had with TextMate, so I'm a pretty happy coder with it now.

nicpottier• 15 years ago

I think the biggest argument towards vim/emacs instead of TextMate or any number of other editors is that you want a tool you can always count on.

I have been using emacs for over 15 years now. Over the course of that time I've fucked around and built my own elisp libraries here and there, but by and large I'm a pretty generic user.

But I can move around files and edit text like a madman.

Over those 15 years I've used emacs on Solaris, Windows, Mac, Linux and various other Unixes.

Over those 15 years I've used emacs to edit HTML, CSS, C/C++, Perl, PHP, Java, Ruby, Python and god knows what else.

The reason I stick to emacs is that it is a tool I know I will ALWAYS have. No matter what platform, no matter what language, I know I'll be productive in it.

We are craftsmen, pick a tool you know you can hone and use for your entire lifetime and career. A closed source text editor that only runs on one platform is definitely not that tool.

burgerbrain13• 15 years ago

Paying for a text editor. Boggles the mind.

calebmpeterson• 15 years ago

I've never used it; is it really /just/ a text editor?

Edit: to clarify, my use of "just" wasn't meant to be dismissive or diminutive in any way...

sigzero• 15 years ago

Pretty much...

elithrar• 15 years ago

> "I've never used it; is it really /just/ a text editor?"

It's not a text editor in the scheme of Notepad or TextEdit; it's an editor for text. That is, it's a tool for programmers, with all the searching, syntax highlighting, and whatnot that goes alongside. Sometimes even writers use it.

What makes TextMate good is that it executes well, and doesn't (at least to me) try to be an IDE. Which is why many of us like it, or at least liked it, before things stagnated.

burgerbrain13• 15 years ago

It sure is no Vim/Emacs, if that's what you're asking.

mhd• 15 years ago

Given the relationship that coders often have with their editors, this is like saying to some parents "It's just a boy"… If you spend a lot of time in one program voluntarily, it's hard not to develop some feelings for it, beyond pure utilitarian reason.

TextMate is certainly one of those programs. It embraced the programmability of a Unix-based environment, coupled with a very simple design and actually introduced some new concepts (or at least made existing ones more prominent and/or easier to use). It also came at the right time, filling a niche for developers that wasn't satisfied by the pure-Unix breed (vim, emacs), nor by the entrenched MacOS editors (well, BBEdit mainly). Being introduced in a quite hip Ruby on Rails screencast didn't hurt, either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not even a hardcore TM fanboy, as I switch a lot between editors, while secretly regretting that I can't just stick to emacs…

But I certainly understand the appeal, and if a bit of money (that most developers who buy Macs certainly can afford) helps keeping the momentum of a resurrected application, I'm all for it. Whether I'm buying it, is another matter. Right now, it doesn't fill an interesting niche for me, and I'd much rather spend the time customizing my .emacs file. Never mind that where I'm really missing good editing functionality isn't HTML or Ruby, it's Objective-C (or Java, when that was still job-relevant), where an IDE really helps. Well, let's see what AppCode[1] can bring to that particular table…

[1] http://www.jetbrains.com/objc/

kenjackson• 15 years ago

How does it compare to Notepad++?

aeturnum• 15 years ago

I've seen this reaction when I advocate for Sublime-Text 2 (I don't use Text Mate as I want a cross-platform editor). Excellent FOSS applications exist in the space, but individuals may value what they get out of products that cost money.

To give an analogous example: You can get an old computer for cheap. Buying a newer computer might be still worth it - it really depends on what you're going to use the computer for. Paying extra money for the right tool for the job is usually a good investment.

burgerbrain13• 15 years ago

Neat analogy, but in this case the "old computer" is far more powerful.

justin_vanw• 15 years ago

The point that parent is trying to make is, emacs and vim are free. emacs and vim are each much much more advanced editors than textmate.

I tend to agree. Also, the textmate 2 debacle shows the inherent weakness in basing a large part of your productivity on closed source software. What if textmate 2 never came out? What if textmate didn't work on OSX 10.9, or what if in 5 years OSX is no longer a reasonable platform to develop on at all? I know that Emacs will be compiled wherever I land, and that all my extensions and configuration will go with me.

It's foolish to lock yourself in to a specific vendor for something as important as an editor (if you are a programmer). Feel free to be foolish, it's your right, but it is foolish.

nhangen2• 15 years ago

I just bought it because I expected the free upgrade, and was patiently waiting. I don't plan on paying for it again.

eli• 15 years ago

Not be a jerk, but if you didn't plan on using Textmate in the mean time, why didn't you wait for 2.0 to come out before buying it?

nhangen2• 15 years ago

Don't get me wrong...I'm using it, and I like it. I just don't feel I should have to buy the same product twice.

diab0lic2• 15 years ago

Perhaps because he wanted to support the developer now, and it made little difference to him as it was as good as buying TM2 later... not to mention the price was locked in at the price you're paying now.

droithomme2• 15 years ago

It's a known problem to preannounce next generation products. Once you announce that the next generation is coming out soon, the value of the current version is discounted in people's minds. Hm, should I buy the 2011 model now, or wait a couple months for the 2012 model. The problem is when, unlike car models, the 2012 model doesn't come out when one expected and is indefinitely delayed. This can put a company in a position where sales dramatically slow down because people are waiting for the imminent next release, but the release is not forthcoming. More than one company has gone under in this conundrum. The solution to extricate oneself from the mess is to announce that the next version is free for all purchasers of the current one. Then people waiting for the next version will say hey why not I will get the current one while I am waiting rather than wait. These people only purchased because they were assured they were really buying the next version, and the current one was to tide them over. It is similar to when you buy a car and it is delayed so the dealer gives you a loaner car until it arrives. Customers would be quite disappointed, having bought a car and lent a loaner, to find that the dealer felt the loaner was good enough for them and if they want the car they bought they should pay a second time.

jinushaun2• 15 years ago

I bought TM1 in 2010 knowing full well that people have been waiting for TM2 for half a decade, because the presumption for late adopters like me (and possibly the parent) is that we bought TM1 to help fund the development of TM2--if revenue is really the problem for the delay of TM2.

I bought Sublime Text 2 while it was still a semi-working beta because I saw the potential and wanted to support the developer.

RandallBrown• 15 years ago

Being ashamed of buy discounted software is kind of stupid.

vtail4• 15 years ago

People may have different motives then you do. It is not stupidity - just one developer appreciating the work of another.

devtesla• 15 years ago

Giving TM2 as a free upgrade probably does make a lot of sense to the developers. Textmate is hugely popular, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets more than enough to finance what he wants to do off of its sales. And by making it free he makes sure that no one has a reason to use TM1 anymore, keeping his userbase unified and easier to handle.

It's also worth mentioning that licences from one discount bundle (MacHeist) will require an upgrade fee, a smart distinction to make.

Buttt, this is a case where he is severely undervaluing his software, which isn't helping in a market where software is already too cheap. The developers are doing less harm to themselves then they are the Mac software community.

gecko2• 15 years ago

I have a lot of trouble understanding this mentality.

I totally get paying when you don't have to in order to support fellow developers. I've got a nice collection of apps on my phone and desktop, all purchased, that I've acquired over the years to support my friends' development efforts. So if Marco wants to help out Macromates, that's fine. More power to him.

But I don't understand this mantra of, "We'll forgive you; just charge everyone." Let's ignore entirely whether that's a contract violation and just focus on whether it's fair.

Zoom back several years to the era Marco's talking about. TextMate 1.0 ships. It's a nice editor--really nice, actually--but it has a lot of rough edges to it. But, Allen promises, buy now anyway; upgrades through version 2.0 are completely free. So a lot of people, including me, slapped down money to buy version 1.0 on this promise. (And in my case, also to support an upstart dev who was daring to take down the 800-pound gorilla of Mac text editors, Bare Bones' BBEdit.)

But that promise never materialized. TextMate got a lot of improvements initially, but there's now a relatively large collection of third-party plugins you need just to achieve parity with the now-native versions of Vim and Emacs that can be had for free.

And in exchange for not shipping anything for literally years, you want to reward him by paying him more?

What am I missing here?

alttag3• 15 years ago

  > I have a lot of trouble understanding this mentality.

Like, say, tipping at a nice restaurant.

You may not like the food, but it seems others did, and they want to demonstrate that to the chef.

gecko2• 15 years ago

As I said: I can understand Marco wanting to pay. I didn't like my meal, Marco did, and he should feel free to give a great tip.

I'm focused on the people who are saying that Macromates should charge users for the upgrade they said would be free. This would be equivalent to someone saying that, because they enjoyed their meal at the restaurant, the restaurant should charge a mandatory 25% tip to all current patrons of the restaurant. That's a very different situation.

reidmain• 15 years ago

This is exactly what I was thinking. If Macro wants to give someone more money than power to him. There are developers who I've bought additional licenses for friends in the slim hope that they would use the app but worst case I supported the developer.

Forcing everyone to support your love for a developer is asine. Macro may be head over heels for TextMate but there are a lot of people who are extremely frustrated with broken promises from MacroMates. Forcing them to pay more is a slap in the face.

riffraff• 15 years ago

I believe (and imagine this is what grandparent meant) that this looks more like a case of "every table will leave a tip, so just charge more than the original menu price when the bill comes".

IMHO If Mr. Pink does not want to tip he should have the right not to do it, since that was the original agreement.

derefr2• 15 years ago

Then here's an idea that may make everybody here happy: the price for the software new is $60. The price for the software with a code from the previous edition is what you want. You can put in $60, or $0, or $256. How 'bout that?

wnight2• 15 years ago

Your example is horrid. Tips are in no way a signal to the chef.

In fact, you're "supposed" to tip about the same for a poorly cooked meal as a good one so as to avoid unreasonably short-changing your server who had nothing to do with the quality.

Tips are merely how restaurants get away with lying about their prices. They don't pay their employees minimum wage knowing you'll be gullible enough to pay the unannounced post-bill markup without a fuss.

5teev2• 15 years ago

Not a great analogy: while almost everyone else at the restaurant works for tips, the chef doesn't.

vtail4• 15 years ago

It's very likely that the original promise ("upgrade to version 2.0 will be completely free") was a huge factor in 2.0 shipping delay: Allan would need to invest a lot of effort to ship the new version to get only marginal return, as TextMate penetration of the relevant market was already high at the time the promise was made.

Charging for 2.0 would seem like a breach of contract for people who only bought TextMate 1.x because they were expecting 2.0 soon. But for people who thought that $60 is a fair price for 1.x (I myself belong to this group, and so seem Marco), it's just a promise of a generous gift that was taken away.

I for one would gladly pay for all hard work that went into rewriting TextMate.

phillmv16• 15 years ago

I can't believe there are so many cheapskates in here.

It's $60! WHO CARES! It's a tool you presumably use every single hour of your programming life. I refuse to accept that you feel personally violated over an idiot promise the author made six years ago.

Are people really saying that if the dude came out and said, "Hey guys, it's done but… if I keep my original promise, I literally won't be able to afford the bandwidth needed to distribute it" you'd feel personally slighted?

I'm not a fan of paying for dev tools, as I think open source is the way to go (yadda yadda yadda) but you're a professional for crying out loud. You get to write this off on your taxes.

stonemetal• 15 years ago

Yes but as GP points out that promise is a part of the reason why there will ever be a 2.0 in the first place. People over paid for V1 because they were buying a v1-v2 package. People who would have passed on V1 were willing to buy it because of the promise of polished V2 for no cost. Without the promise he wouldn't have done nearly so well and perhaps would have folded before V2 became a reality.

If anything V2 should have been reduced in scope and shipped sooner because of the promise, not drawn out so that you kill revenue giving free upgrades.

5teev2• 15 years ago

> But for people who thought that $60 is a fair price for 1.x (I myself belong to this group, and so seem Marco), it's just a promise of a generous gift that was taken away.

But kind of a bummer for people who considered the $60 as $30 for 1.x, $30 for 2.x.

embwbam• 15 years ago

I'd rather pay $60 to have it, than pay nothing and it not get done.

FuzzyDunlop3• 15 years ago

This logic fails if it's not a universal agreement. When it's not, you're just paying money for an expectation that may never materialise.

One might call it gambling.

tptacek4• 15 years ago

The simplest distillation of what Marco is saying may be:

Allan Odgaard built a great product but made a calamitous mistake in pricing it relative to the effort he ended up putting into it.

Marco has been auditioning text editors for several months now, and has come to the conclusion that he is happiest with Textmate.

Marco would strongly prefer to help Odgaard fix his pricing mistake over the option of having to switch to a different editor because Odgaard burns out on Textmate completely.

octover• 15 years ago

Does Allan have a pricing mistake for Marco to fix? I haven't heard anywhere that it is a real impediment to TM2. Even in the list message from Allan, he mentions that maybe it was a mistake, but money wasn't his primary motivation.

If Allan is smart he'll look at the Sophiestication blow up regarding CoverSutra 2.5 being a paid upgrade. I think that would be about the worst thing that could happen to his motivation to work on TextMate. Marco should buy another license if he wants, and I, and many other developers will most likely follow suite of our own free will.

I just can't trust Marco's analysis when it feels like he doesn't seem to give any consideration to the fallout. In the last Build and Analyze he also didn't know Allan's employment situation, and many other things that don't seem to vibe with what I know of the situation as someone who has used TextMate since it was first released. Granted I know he was being a bit flippant at this point, but he brought up how there are holidays before Christmas that could further delay things, but since Thanksgiving is firmly a US holiday and Allan is a Dane living in Denmark, it's fairly safe to say that Nov. 24 and that entire week are just going to be another week for Allan.

alnayyir• 15 years ago

>What am I missing here?

vimtutor or Emacs info-pages so you're no longer dependent on commercial entities for the cornerstone of your tools.

racerrick• 15 years ago

It's like taxes... you can always pay more if you want to!

sliverstorm• 15 years ago

It's quite simple. On the one hand, hold him to his promise (because after all a man's word is his bond) and get no TM2. On the other hand, allow him to renig on his promise (sacrificing your ideals of what is right, just and fair, and another $60) and get TM2.

To some people- not all people- having TM2 is more valuable than sticking to their idealogical guns.

d5tryr• 15 years ago

You answered your own question - "Let's ignore entirely whether that's a contract violation and just focus on whether it's fair."

davidw• 15 years ago

Parity with Emacs?

   M-x no-way-no-how

Nyr• 15 years ago

"Given the value that we get out of TextMate, it’s already grossly underpriced. Please let us give you more money"

The value for you isn't probably the same for all the customers.

Some people make millions from the work of the Apache Foundation for example but others use their web server to run little websites. Some would probably pay tons of money for it, others won't.

I am not saying that a upgrade fee for TextMate 2 will not be fair, but that is solely at the author's discretion.

jastanton• 15 years ago

"The value for you isn't probably the same for all the customers" Definitely right on. If this person is so set on paying for this product the creators of TM should just have a donate option. Then he can pay all he wants.

johnnyn• 15 years ago

I had no idea Textmate 2 would be a free upgrade for Textmate 1 users. I would gladly pay for Textmate 2 as well.

vtail4• 15 years ago

I find it depressing that some people in the comments here wouldn't want to pay for a _key tool of their trade_ - assuming they work with texts professionally as programmers, bloggers, designers etc. Even 10% increase in productivity will pay for Textmate license in 10 days, assuming you get at least a minimum wage.

craftsman• 15 years ago

I don't think it's depressing. I can use emacs (others would give different examples) for free and I can use it in my daily work quite efficiently. So given that reality, I have a hard time paying for an editor, even if it is a key tool of my trade.

vtail4• 15 years ago

What I was trying to say is that every tool should be evaluated using 'productivity gain vs cost' framework. It may well be that for some people productivity gains of TextMate vs emacs/vim/other editor are small and therefore paying any price for TextMate is unreasonable, since the alternatives are free.

But in a case where TextMate does yield to substantial productivity gain, "$60 is too much" is a wrong mental model.

georgemcbay• 15 years ago

I think the problem most here have with this (and I have the same issue myself, though for me it is hypothetical since I'm not a TextMate user) is that the way Marco worded his article he is suggesting that the TextMate creator should go back on his word and charge all users for TM2.

Randomly changing terms like that is BS regardless of whether a big corp or a small company is doing it. A lot of people who use TextMate as much as Marco does may be willing to throw in some more money for TM2, but going back on your word is never a good thing, so Allan should provide TM2 for free as promised and then have a separate Donate button or some other clever way to allow satisfied customers to pay for TM2.

dotnetnoob3• 15 years ago

I find it depressing that if I pay for something with the promise of free upgrade and it wasn't. There are people like you who will jump out from the wood to defend it. Don't make any promise if you can't keep.

vidar• 15 years ago

The assumption here is that TM2 is better than TM1. Lets see if that holds.

acslater002• 15 years ago

+1.

sant0sk1• 15 years ago

Please add your +1 by hitting the up arrow next to the comment.

danielsiders• 15 years ago

Understandable perspective from a successful independent app developer.

ary• 15 years ago

Contrast the TextMate situation to that of Sublime Text. Jon Skinner has done an amazing job of shipping something compelling early, updating it often, developing out in the open and giving his customers a good reason to buy the product even though it's still in beta.

Allan Odgaard has made promises as to the quality and ship date of his product, and that's about it (to be fair, there have been 1.x updates). At this point the promise of a free upgrade combined with the boatloads of cash TM1 made are almost certainly what put future product development on perpetual hold. Far from just avoiding that promise, he should have avoided talking about future versions at all.

For me the choice is pretty clear. I finally deleted TM from ~/Applications a few weeks ago and haven't really looked back. Sublime Text 2 isn't perfect, but it is already very close to being everything I need for my day to day development and general editing tasks. Even though it isn't stable, I use it nearly every day, and it just keeps getting better.

malbs2• 15 years ago

Thanks for the ref to Sublime - it runs on Windows. I have a TM license on my mac mini (hooked up via kvm), but since my wifes machine died I migrated her to the mac, so I don't really use the thing anymore (TextMate too), and I have to admit, it is a nice editor and I wish it was available for Windows. I'll definitely check out Sublime today though.

malbs2• 15 years ago

so I just downloaded it at work and had a quick look - immediate impression is "wow", it's really really nice, I need to put some mileage into it. I have some faith that the first impression was the right one

kanwisher• 15 years ago

Same here, a few months ago I gave up on Textmate2 ever coming and switched to Sublime2 and I love it, the every month upgrade cycle is perfect amount of time between releases.

FuzzyDunlop3• 15 years ago

Agreed. I bought a license for Sublime Text 2 about a month ago after I felt I'd taken advantage of the evaluation enough.

Almost nightly updates, more doing than saying, a nice little support forum and - the clincher - compatibility with TextMate bundles while being multi-platform (TextMate functionality... on my Linux install!). It's still in beta and has a way to go but it fills the gap TextMate has left, and it gets near-nightly updates.

Don't get me wrong, TextMate was (/still is) great, but if people want to celebrate a developer for announcing what has essentially been vapourware (and may still be), and running a travesty of a blog, they're free to, and they're free to throw their money away.

But if I had a blog of my own I might suggest you save that €30, give Sublime a go, and see if you'd rather put that cash towards a full license for it.

frou_dh• 15 years ago

TextMate 2 seems to be limping over the finish line while Sublime Text 2 is already getting in to its stride for the next race.

I think Sublime deserves to take the crown, but a little more polish specific to the Mac version (behaviours, icon) wouldn't hurt.

desireco423• 15 years ago

I think Mac version gets a ton of attention :)

alttag3• 15 years ago

Several commenters here, and on other threads and across the web have complained about no progress since forever ago. And while the core product may not have changed, bundles and plugins have continued to be created/updated, so it's not like things have been completely stagnant all this time.

Sure, there's angst at a lack of communication, but that doesn't mean the TM community has stagnated the entire time.

damiongrimfield• 15 years ago

What are all the features that everyone wants? Why all the hype?

I gave up on TM2 a long time ago, but that doesn't mean I switched to another editor; I still use TM1 everyday. However, when I purchased TM1, I was promised TM2 for free, and therefore I'll have it for free.

weaksauce• 15 years ago

There are quite a few things that textmate does not have but should have to be a full featured text editor. off the top of my head the main ones are: split screen, better printing control, better plugin system, ability for a real lexer/parser/tokenizer to be plugged into the plugin system(I guess you could get around this by writing your scripts in ruby and shelling out but that seems slow.) Regex for syntax highlighting your files breaks very easily. I might be way off base and all these are easily fixed with some plugin but I haven't found the solution to them yet.

scottbruin• 15 years ago

Major things I wish for are: bulk grouped undo, improved Safari-esque search where all items highlight, non-blocking project search, jump to class/function definition that doesn't stink, improved project layout a la Espresso & Chocolat, auto-updating bundles, setup syncing across computers (this would be killer and new for editors), better jump to file, smarter quotation doubling, improved default HTML/CSS language definitions, and more obvious bracket matching.

munificent• 15 years ago

TextMate 2 is the perfect, yet heartbreaking example of Brook's Second-system effect. It's painful seeing an otherwise successful developer get so completely sucked into it.

backwardm2• 15 years ago

Except we haven't even seen TM2 yet. It could be a more svelte, nematodeine, feature-less slice of software. Just because it's taken half an eon for even the beta announcement to come to fruition doesn't mean it's a bloat-ware type scenario. At least I hope it isn't.

tobinfricke• 15 years ago

nematodeine - worm like?

spooneybarger8• 15 years ago

Sadly it isn't even a beta announcement.

savrajsingh• 15 years ago

While we wait for TM2, you can supercharge/augment TextMate 1's full-project search capabilities with ackmate. It's an indispensible tool for me:

https://github.com/protocool/ackmate

vertr• 15 years ago

I installed this yesterday, and it's fantastic.

smackfu• 15 years ago

"You promised the free update in a different era, probably expecting different circumstances. Things have changed."

True, but not how he means it. Now people expect lifetime free upgrades from smaller software packages. There's no Instapaper 2.0, for instance, and probably never will be.

leejoramo• 15 years ago

I am pretty much a die hard BBEdit user for the past 15 years, but I purchased a copy TextMate years ago. I think it would create a lot of bad will if 2.0 was a forced paid upgraded.

I think TM2 should be free for TM1 buyers via macromates.com, but cost full price via the Apple App Store.

mrinterweb• 15 years ago

If TextMate 2 is great software new customers will buy the software. If TextMate does not come out with a new version, other editors like Sublime Text 2 will deprecate TextMate. If MacroMates wants to sell more licenses of TextMate they will need to be competitive with the other more modern editing software. MacroMates should hold to the existing contract that subsequent versions are free to upgrade to for TextMate 1. If they want to change that with TextMate 2 licences, that is fine. If you want to entice MacroMates to develop TextMate 2 with money write them a check and tell them what the money is for or buy a new license when the new version comes out.

randylahey2• 15 years ago

Vim is still free.

veyron• 15 years ago

and is still awesome! I tried textmate for a few weeks and went back to macvim

randylahey2• 15 years ago

I look forward to the day I can teach my kids to use Vim :)

sdfjkl• 15 years ago

Simple solution: Optional payment. Keep the promise of a free upgrade, but add the option to pay anyways if someone really likes it (if the current TextMate is any indication, many will).

I wish all software was sold like this: You get the full version for free, no restrictions, no nagging (perhaps a reminder once a month). If you really like it, you get the option to (easily, avoiding PayPal) pay for it. Heck, you might even let people choose the price.

Of course this would work only for software that makes people think: "Hey, someone really spent a lot of effort into making just the right tool for the job". Microsoft Office might not benefit from this method of "voting with your money" - but then that would probably be a good thing too.

plainOldText2• 15 years ago

If as a current TextMate user I'll have to pay for TextMate 2 I'll just switch to MacVim.

phillmv16• 15 years ago

If you don't mind me asking, why on earth would you do that?

1. Your existing copy of TextMate will continue to work just fine 2. Have you used MacVim recently? Assuming TM2 has a totally painless upgrade path from TM1, you will be spending weeks getting used to vim. Surely, it is cheaper to invest in TM2.

burgerbrain13• 15 years ago

"you will be spending weeks getting used to vim."

How in the world would that even be possible? Give it a weekend at most.

plainOldText2• 15 years ago

1.Yes, indeed my existing version of TextMate will work just fine, however it won't get any new features/updates in the long run since probably most resources will be spent developing TextMate 2. I will be using an abandoned product.

2. My TextMate license is only a few months old, so probably there will be the felling of buyer's remorse.

3. Since MacVim is free if there will ever be a totally new MacVim version I can easily switch to it with no additional costs involved.

So in the short run, yes sticking to TextMate is far easier, but in the long run I feel like switching to MacVim will be a better investment.

desireco423• 15 years ago

Dude don't wait :) Use MacVim today.

diab0lic2• 15 years ago

Seriously. Frequent releases, native UI, rich plugin set, customizable, free, multi-platform (vim) and timeless.

breathesalt• 15 years ago

i agree. do not resist, there is no esc :x

desireco423• 15 years ago

Seriously people just use Sublime Text if you can't figure out Vim (I use both). Author is super responsive, cranks out really awesome features every week, totally someone who is worth throwing money at.

And both of them are cross-platform ie. Linux, Mac, Win, you rule them all.

YuriNiyazov• 15 years ago

I switched back to Emacs from TextMate. Never looked back.

sshumaker• 15 years ago

A simple solution to this problem - for existing users, allow them to choose their own price for the upgrade. Some people feel like they deserve a free version (maybe they just bought Textmate recently), while others have been using it for years and feel like Allen deserves to be paid for version 2.

johnohara• 15 years ago

This is somewhat OT but I've used EditPlus under Windows for almost eight years and have paid $35 twice -- v2 and v3. Same with FileZilla.

When it's worth it, it's worth it. a lot of people feel the same way about TextMate.

georgeott• 15 years ago

Also OT, but, as a PC guy who LOVES EditPlus, is Textmate similar in features?

dragonquest• 15 years ago

Hmmm, that's odd because I bought EditPlus 2.3x for 30$, the price was increased in 3.x. Also v3 was free for all paid customers of 2.x. When did you buy 2.x?

backwardm2• 15 years ago

I have tried using a lot of other text editors over the past year or so—trying to find a viable replacement for TextMate. Each time someone in HN mentions Sublime or MacVim or new hotness text editor X, I give it a shot, use it for a couple of days to see if it sticks. I even tried going back to BBEdit—the editor I used for years and years before TextMate. To me, nothing compares. I'm not sure exactly what it is about it, but it just feels right to me. I even use only maybe 2% of what it's capable of. Still, there's something 'correct' about it.

In fact, I often think to myself, "Self, if TextMate 2 never came to be and you 'had' to use your current dusty version for the rest of your life, you'd be a.o.k. fine and dandy. Maybe by the time you stopped using a computer (and therefore TextMate 1.x), you'd have learned to type a little faster and maybe learned to use another 2% of the available features. Maybe, if TextMate 2 came out, you'd still prefer what you're using now." I totally agree with myself, then move along—happily coding away for yet another day in TextMate current.

So, when TextMate 2 comes out, I'll download it and give it a shot—just like all the others. If it sticks, and helps me enjoy my work a little bit more, then, just like everything else that does, I'll purchase it so I can keep using it.

The makers of TextMate will decide to do whatever they think is best for them regarding the price & past promises of free software, but I'm with the Marco.org fella in seeing (and paying money in exchange for) value in well crafted tools.

Legend• 15 years ago

I don't really own a Mac nor do I use TextMate but over the years, I have heard about its greatness. I am just dying to ask this but why not put an optional paid upgrade? That way, if someone feels like paying for it, you'd know :)

Sublime Text 2 (which is my TextMate :) on Windows) uses something like this - keep using it and pay when you feel like model and I absolutely love it!

xenophanes• 15 years ago

Maybe he should use the "pay what you want" pricing concept for upgrades. Anyone who wants his free upgrade can't complain. But he'll end up getting paid some, too.

sirclueless• 15 years ago

This seems like a good idea to me. Just have part of the upgrade process be a text box that says something like: "Please enter how much you would like to pay for the upgrade. As promised, this upgrade is free if you want it to be, but if you think Textmate is worth it, please consider paying an appropriate amount."

That way people who can't afford it or otherwise feel entitled to the free upgrade can get it free, and all the moderately wealthy developers who use Textmate every day and can afford it can be guilted into supporting development.

mcritz• 15 years ago

TextMate 2.0 will be free. Maybe TextMate 2.0.1 will cost $79. Maybe if enough people support TextMate 2.0 by paying for it, the rest of the freeloaders will get 2.0.1 for free, as well.

droithomme2• 15 years ago

Wanting to pay more is certainly a valid and generous thing to want to do.

However, it is a bit grating that Marco presumes to speak for all customers of this product by using the word "we". I don't presume to speak for Marco, he should speak for himself only.

frankPants• 15 years ago

He should start a donation fund to pay for the development of TextMate2. I'd happily throw a few hundred $$$ into that. I own TextMate 1, so I get the update for free.

Problem for him is, he'd open himself up to litigation if he tried to charge for TextMate 2. However I'm also of the opinion that the lack of release is due to the lack of cash. If he could see money rolling in via "donations" maybe he'd be more capable of paying his bills and continuing to develop his great editor.

bradgessler3• 15 years ago

I think Alan could make money writing a book about the development of TextMate 2.0. I'm curious what happened and what lessons were learned.

ricardobeat• 15 years ago

Just present an optional payment screen, maybe a pay as much as you want scheme, to those who are upgrading.

2. Get rich

kylec• 15 years ago

Back when I pirated TextMate 1 (probably in 2006 or so) I told myself that I'd pay for it when 2.0 came out. I still plan to, though I'll admit that it's been longer than I thought it would be.

geoffpado• 15 years ago

I'll solve both issues: TextMate Gold. It's a special version for TextMate 1 licensees that decide to pay the extra upgraded prices (or unlicensed users who pay an extra 39 EUR). No extra features, it just adds a gold titlebar (preferences controllable, of course), and puts your name in gold lettering in the about box. People like Marco can feel better about themselves, and no one who bought TextMate 1.x feels screwed over.

whyme• 15 years ago

When I bought, I remember reading the free upgrades part, but I had thought it was only up "TO" version 2.0 not including 2.0. Somehow I just assume that major upgrades are fair game for upgrade fees.

So...if 2.0 is truly a major upgrade I'm more than willing to pay the $60.

Count me in!

Uchikoma2• 15 years ago

Me too.

Uchikoma2• 15 years ago

How can the support for Textmate, expressing my will to pay - be worth a downvote.

I understand the urge to keep this place noise free, but people committing in public to pay for a new version - and I've also bought Textmate a long time ago - is probably of more information value for many people here - with their own projects - then many other upvoted comments.

statictype• 15 years ago

I find it interesting how he feels that software purchased through discount bundles are not proper.

evanlong• 15 years ago

<snarky>Those jerks at Microsoft who have the nerve to charge for things at every major release...</snarky>

jarek4• 15 years ago

Well, XP to XP SP 2 was practically a major release, and that was free as they promised.

chromejs10• 15 years ago

I can see both sides of the coin. I understand that a lot of people may have bought TextMate because they were told the update to 2.0 would be free (otherwise they may have waited). However, with as big as TextMate is and how a guy with little or no team was able to create it, he can't possibly afford to offer it to free for the thousands of people who bought the original one.

I think it would be perfectly fair to offer a discounted price to those who bought TextMate 1.0 (as opposed to free). That's a pretty fair thing to do IMHO. Many others said it, but if you are shelling out all the big bucks to buy a Mac, spending a few more bucks on an outstanding piece of software. It is a good way to show your support to the developer and make him continue sending out updates.

Just imagine the scenario where he does offer it for free, makes virtually no profit, and then ends up quitting support for TextMate 2 (as in making bug fixes, features, etc) because he can't afford to just live off of doing that. We all lose in that scenario.

I'm a student with lots of debt, but I will buy TextMate 2 full price because it's a good investment. Even if he does offer it for free, it would be a great gesture to buy it anyway or at least open up a donation thing for him.

Can't wait for its release!

ThinkEzy• 15 years ago

WE WANT TEXTMATE FOR WINDOWS ABSOLUTELY

neilrahilly• 15 years ago

What would people like to see in TM2? I'll start:

- window splits - better inline search (i.e., from hitting /), so that the find/replace window isn't covering up the editor window

snow_mac• 15 years ago

Blah, blah, blah. I seem to remember all versions free up to but not including version 2. Anyways, aside from it being a little bit better then Notepad++ mostly in UI. It's OK. I personally roll with: Textmate for local dev @ home & vim, Dreamweaver & Notepad++ @ work and Eclipse & gEdit @ school. Personally if I could find an IDE that isn't as heavy as Eclipse that can roll HTML, java, php, css, coldfusion, ruby, bash, javascript and C I'd happily convert from 6 different editors to 1. ... #justSayin

FlowerPower2• 15 years ago

Oh la la, look at this guy, he has money!

tuananh2• 15 years ago

Tell Alan to put a donation badge on the site. Problem SOLVED !!!

epo• 15 years ago

Just for interest's sake can anyone point to this 'promise' of a free upgrade to version 2? I bought TM1 and it played no part on my buying decision because I was not not aware of any such guarantee.

If this promise was made then IMHO his best option is to adopt the Firefox/Chrome numbering scheme: stabilise and release whatever he has now as TM2.

He should also change the licensing to free updates for 12 months from date of purchase and continue working on TM3.

lylejohnson• 15 years ago

See for example the "license policy" page [1], where it says, "We do hope to release a free 2.0 upgrade (which will require Leopard) but we provide no guarantees about this, we do not promise what features it may or may not include, we do not have any expected date of release etc."

[1] http://macromates.com/license_policy

urbanjunkie• 15 years ago

It's strange how so many people are waiting for a number.

As far as I can tell, there have been almost no feature promises, so the TM developer would be perfectly within his rights to add the 1 or 2 promised features, bump the version to 2, and fulfil his contractual obligations.

mryall• 15 years ago

Maybe Allan should skip version 2 completely and just release the new one as TextMate 3.

webrakadabra• 15 years ago

While I totally appreciate the generosity of Macro, I totally condemn Macro's speaking for the entire buyer community as in "We will not hold you to it" & "Please let us give you more money".

For Allan, money sure is good but reputation is still better.

lyso• 15 years ago

He could just do what everyone else is doing: move to the Mac App Store and charge everyone again.

neilalbrock• 15 years ago

I agree. I would gladly pay full price for TextMate 2, even although I paid for it the first time around. Of all the software I've bought over the years, TextMate is the one product that I use every day.

I'd started looking at Sublime Text 2 as a possible replacement, as it's got some really nice features. The TM2 announcement fills me with hope that I may not have to do that... so I'll hang in there a bit longer.

rays• 15 years ago

Speak for yourself. The only reason TM2 is a free upgrade, or even coming out at all is that Sublime Text 2 is eating up the cash cow that was TM1 and soon TM user base will go away unless he does something about it.

jrockway• 15 years ago

What I like about the Free software is that if the main author dies or stops working on the project, I can pick up where he left off instead of write blog posts saying we should all give him more money.

jinushaun2• 15 years ago

The problem is that, from an accounting perspective, money that should've been funding TM2 is considered TM1 revenue. So it looks like he is giving away TM2 for free, even though many, including myself, only bought TM1 for TM2. I think Sublime Text is smart for charging for the ST2 beta in order to avoid this problem.

Macromates should've charged new customers for the TM2 beta while he had a chance years ago. I bought TM1 recently. There was no good reason I should've been paying for TM1 in late 2010. I should've been buying and helping to fund TM2 directly, even if it was an alpha release. I don't know what held up TM2 development, but Sublime Text 2 has shown that people are willing to pay for a broken unfinished product if it has potential. Now he has a whole bunch customers, myself included, to unnecessarily grandfather in.

swah• 15 years ago

While you were talking, a new update for ST2 has arrived :)

nobleach• 15 years ago

I've been trying to find some rationality in all this. I think it's crystal clear. The REASON Marco has been using version 1.x since 2006 is because there IS no version 2.0.

It's NOT any of our faults that the upgrade wasn't there 6 months later. That was the developer's fault. If it had come out 6 months to a year later, the revenue generated by 1.x would have most likely covered his "salary". But that money was obviously spent somewhere else... at his discretion. Now we have people saying, "it's ok, we'll pay again." Sure, I used the software since 2005, but only because for most of that time, there was NOTHING better. In no way is that my fault.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to Textmate, its developer or anyone else. As a developer, I understand that rightfully, family, obligations, and more lucrative projects can get in the way of one's pet projects.

wastedbrains• 15 years ago

Sounds good, long as we are making developer requests.

Hey Marco, I want to pay for a really good kindle sync of instapaper, stop being so iOS focused.

ImprovedSilence• 15 years ago

There seems to be a lot of bickering along the lines of "business is business, and he should keep his promise of business"... Which doesn't quite make sense to me. If I were him, I'd charge all yall $80, but up it to $90 if you sent me an email about free upgrades. Buy it, or don't buy it. You love the product. you ponied up for a mac. I suspect somehow I'd sell enough to not be able to give a rats ass what you think. That's business my friends.

thenduks4• 15 years ago

That is an... interesting approach.

I, for one, who would gladly pay for TM2 separately had I not already purchased a license for it, would not appreciate that kind of attitude and make sure never to do business with Macromates again.

briandear2• 15 years ago

I'm sure the author of the posting could simply donate to the dev via paypal. It's similar to those "rich" people who are demanding to pay higher taxes. That's a nonsense argument because they can donate to the US Treasury just as a dev could donate to the TextMate guy. I am tired of people suggesting to other people how to spend everyone else's money. If you want to pay more -- do it yourself.

For the rest of us, I'll pay what I'm required and donate if I feel so inclined. I'd personally rather donate to the Tiny Wings guy simply because paying $60 for a text editor is fairly steep, if you aren't getting the version 2 update for free. And Tiny Wings has better music. Logic Studio is only $299, compared to a text editor's $60 and Xcode is free. The amount of coding that went into Logic is light years beyond TextMate, but Apple knows that if they charged $1000 for it (a fair price based on feature set, they'd lose more revenue than charging $299.) I'm not a business school guy, but I do know a thing or two about demand elasticity. Try charging $4.99 for an app in the App Store and charge $1.99 -- you'll make more money at $1.99, unless it's some highly niche product; TextMate is far from highly niche. It's ubiquitous.

I have paid for TextMate and have no problems doing so, but I'll be damned if some jackass suggests that we should pay more. That's a business decision to be made by the TextMate dev, not some user who likely has very little experience in selling software to the public. No offense to anyone, but based on the posting, it appears that the author has little understanding of demand curves, not to mention contractual agreements.

seyDoggy• 15 years ago

I will be paying for the upgrade. It's a full digit release that's been a kagillion years in the making. I've gotten my $'s worth out of all the 1.X's to date.

JamesChurchman• 15 years ago

its should be a paid upgrade... its taken too much time to be a freebee ..

I want to pay for TextMate 2

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