HN user
I think that’s part of it but it’s also the natural consequence of having several people on one side of the table trying to find out everything they can from the founders in a very short period of time and being genuinely interested if you and what you’re building.
Think speed dating plus lots of coffee.
Honestly there aren’t a lot of products that were funded this way so I can’t point you to specific resources.
In our case the funding came prepaid with no strings attached. Can’t speak to where in their budgets the funds were allocated from.
I think we should build an ecosystem where companies support open source projects that benefit their companies with great ROI. Unfortunately I don’t know how we get there yet.
There are so many different funding models now for different things (https://humanipo.app/ for example) that there must be a good answer. We should all work together and try harder to find what the best option is.
Cool. We got the first 120k from I think around 12 companies. It followed close to a power law distribution, very long tail.
Our strategy was to encourage developers to talk to their bosses rather than contribute individually which we think but can’t prove worked well. Basically we tried to get on calls with CTOs and CEOs and explain that this would help the company.
It’s not too far off. Here’s how I’d look at it:
$180k base salary is appropriate but most of those people are expecting stock options as well (compare to Levels) so the fully loaded price* is closer to 300-500k/year x 3 people, so $1-1.5mm
We’ve already done most of the conceptual and architectural work for Postgres, MySQL, and mongo (and redis but not highly available). Much of that was inspired by the Manatee project at Joyent. So (though I haven’t looked at this I a while and the DBs may have changed in a way that becomes more challenging) this is probably a case of put money in, get value out.
However I can assure you you aren’t going to get even 600k out of the community.
We worked really hard to get the first 120k and twisted a lot of wrists to get there. (Of course if you know someone who wants to write 600k checks for open source stuff please have them call me)
The 1-1.5mm number is about what a standard YC company gets at demo day. So that’s the path I’d recommend. Add in another 500k for overhead and biz dev people and that’s a pretty solid startup. Honestly if we had just focused on that we would probably have got a series A.
One of the great things about open source is that you create 100x+ the amount of value that you capture. The dark side is that no one wants to contribute cash as users to make that happen (I’m thinking more of companies than individuals - lots of individuals will give a few dollars)
So, unfortunately, and as always, it’s easier to raise VC than sponsorships for open source.
That being said I strongly encourage anyone who’s interested to pick up where we left off. Either as a community project or a funded startup this would be a huge benefit to the ecosystem.
* of course you can find people who are cheaper and passionate about the project to do it for less, maybe much less. But if someone called me and said for what price can you guarantee this could be done, I’d say 1-1.5mm USD.
Cofounder here again.
I just wanted to say that while we’re sad to shut down and definitely didn’t accomplish everything we wanted to we are deeply grateful for having had the chance to build something significant and get past a 1.0.
Our original crowdfunding round and supporters - almost all of whom found us on HN, Y Combinator, and our seed investors helped make that possible (plus of course all our open source contributors, alpha and beta users, early customers, and even the people who filed GitHub issues panicked because their sites had just gone down).
Most of our team worked together on Tent (protocol for decentralized social networking) before this which no VC would get behind. So we know how much it sucks to have a great idea that no one will pay for you to build.
We’re very grateful to HN for the opportunity to build something so cool.
Neither of those projects would have been possible without HN. I know for a fact that we only got meetings, term sheets, into YC, and more on the strength of the HN comments and later the GitHub stars.
Before we had a working product we could at least say, “hey, these people all say they want what we’re trying to build” and that got us in the door.
We had lots of different proof points to show investors and even customers, but the most important thing was the number of upvotes and enthusiasm of the comments.
Thank you all for being so open minded and supporting our work. We literally wouldn’t have been allowed to do it without you.
Hope to have something even better to share with you all one day.
You’re welcome! Hope you’re doing well!
(For those who don’t know, all the partners in a YC interview ask questions of everyone simultaneously— this is complicated at the best of times and totally nuts when you’re trying to answer technical questions about distributed systems and questions about how you’ll build the business, but it’s a great mental workout!)
Happy to — it’s a great question! I want all software to be open source but we really haven’t figured out how to fund many types of open source projects yet.
- Database appliances (RDS) for major DBs
- turnkey security, especially for compliance (SOC2, HIPAA, ISO 27001)
- close the loop on development environments (vscode)
- CICD
That’s pretty close to our series A roadmap. Mythical man months aside, I’d say all of that could be production-ready in around 18 months with a few engineers per bullet point.
In terms of salaries it’s a little tricky for a number of reasons (people are willing to work for less for a startup and/or on open source plus we hired around the world), but for many of the developers I’d say equivalent to L4-5.
The important thing to remember about PaaS is multi-node vs single node are different worlds. There are great tools like dokku that were designed only for single node operation, then there are things like Flynn or k8 for many nodes. As soon as you’re doing many nodes you’re in distributed systems territory where engineers have to manage much more complete systems design and as a result are more expensive and in more demand. That’s not saying anything bad about simpler tools, they’re great and important, it’s just a lot harder to design around distributed systems where failure modes, consensus, partitions, etc are a lot more complicated. A lot of the challenges when we started were figuring out what the problems were and how to solve them rather than implementation time. In the last 5 years there has been a lot more written so less research would be needed to implement some of these today.
Our overall goal was to automate anything in the devops lifecycle that could be automated, so that’s a never ending process. Unfortunately it means that the more you scale the more technology you have to make, so Flynn for smaller companies with fewer users is less expensive to design and build than Flynn for huge companies with lots of traffic. (Again, distributed systems are hard) so knowing the scale of your prospective users is a big part of the cost equation.
Interesting question. I think there are two angles:
1. Having already shut down and the team gone separate ways and onto new projects how much would you need to get back on the horse so to speak
2. Are there still things you want to accomplish and what would it take to make them succeed
Personally I’d happily take a check to do more development. There are a lot of Flynn 2.0 features that were in various stages of completion, if someone was willing to fund development to complete them up front that’s great.
However I wouldn’t want to do sales for this/run a b2b company around this again.
So if one of the companies that was using Flynn called and said they wanted to pay our development team to keep building, that’s great. But if a VC called and said “wait! Let’s finally make this company take off” there would have to be a decent sized bonus check attached. Mostly that’s just because after years on a ramen profitable startup as a founder your finances aren’t awesome so saying “yes” means turning down higher paying offers.
The biggest problem we had financially was being able to develop features before our customers needed them. We knew what to build but didn’t have enough budget to ship them. Any offer would have to come with the guarantee that we could focus on development for day 6 months before starting sales back up.
At the end of the day there’s work we left unfinished and if someone was willing to fund that in advance I’d generally be up for it. But if someone just wanted to keep the business wheels turning that’s not super attractive at this point, so it would need to be a https://levels.fyi salary rather than a startup founder salary.
Cofounder here.
We’re surprised and flattered at the interest and discussion.
For those wondering why we shut down here’s a brief summary:
We created Flynn to be Heroku that you could run on your own infrastructure (cloud or otherwise). We started Flynn as a crowdfunded project with support mainly from other startups, we imagined it would be non-commercial and community-driven.
After the prototype it became clear that we would need a full time team to develop and maintain the project. When we couldn’t find anyone who wanted to fund the project long term we applied to YC and then raised a seed round which let us build a 1.0.
Unfortunately we were never able to raise more VC so we spent several years trying to build a business that would allow us to keep developing the project.
We spent the last four years with a skeleton team and while we were able to build a business doing “ops as a service” for other startups we ultimately couldn’t generate enough revenue to cover both development/features and the 24/7 on call team we needed. While we were able to support our paying customers we couldn’t deliver the features we wanted to build or support unpaid open source users.
We also take stability and support really seriously. We were extremely uncomfortable with the fact that people were running Flynn but didn’t know enough to run it safely. So we’d get panicked emails and github issues from users who couldn’t pay us but needed help. That’s a terrible situation for everyone involved.
The ecosystem has come a long way since we started (we were one of the first Docker powered projects and started about a year before kubernetes was announced). But we still feel like there’s a need for something like Flynn :(
Unfortunately it’s expensive to develop full-featured platforms and we could never get VCs interested in a Series A.
The 24/7 on call lifestyle got to be too much for our team, especially during COVID so with no prospects of things changing we decided to call it quits.
Flynn co-founder here.
Great question. We just consider ourselves to be a normal company that happens to build open source tools. We also try to make money in ways that don't interfere with the open nature of what we build.
There are lots of different kinds of companies whose engineers primarily work on open source projects. In most cases where their core "product" is an open source technology they also sell commercial support, usually to large companies who need an SLA. Others (like us) sell managed services as well.
We made the decision before we started the company to make anything we ever asked users to run on their own machines permissively licensed open source and just be careful with our trademark (like Mozilla is[1]). That leaves the door open for closed-source SaaS in the future but gives our users (and investors) a clear set of expectations about how and what we'll build.
I think it's important for companies to be as clear as possible about how and why they license their code, what choices they'll make in the future, and what happens when the company changes hands. It would be great to see something like an "open source pledge" where founders/the company could contractually commit to either a final open source release before closing (like Parse did[2]) or staying open after being acquired (like Sun didn't after being acquired by Oracle [3]).
[1] https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/foundation/trademarks/policy/ [2] http://blog.parse.com/announcements/introducing-parse-server... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_(operating_system)#Pos...
edit: We tend to avoid calling ourselves an "open source company" which can get confused with the "open company" movement[4].
Thanks! Flynn is designed to be cloud-independent so you're not locked in to any cloud, or even cloud in general. You can also run Flynn on your own servers.
Flynn also allows portability between clouds. Since we don't use any cloud-specific features (like, say RDS) you can backup a Flynn cluster (including database appliances) from one cloud and deploy onto a new cluster on an entirely different cloud.
Thanks for the great question. I'm the CEO & co-founder of Flynn.
tldr: we're open to making Flynn a foundation/community project if we could find the right kinds of partners and once the core innovation is complete.
This is something we've thought a lot about over the past few years. Everyone on our team is a hardcore open source believer and contributor and the long term success and sustainability of open source projects and Flynn in particular are something we care deeply about.
When we started working on Flynn (with just a crowdfunding page posted to HN) we had no intentions of commercializing it. Before asking HN to fund the project we reached out the founders of many growing startups (many of which are now unicorns) who we saw as the core users. Our goal was to agree on an architecture and set of APIs, then have each company "own" one component of Flynn, with one engineer at each working on their component full time.
Everyone we talked to said they loved the idea of an open source Heroku that could run anything (not just 12 factor apps) and run anywhere from AWS to their own colos and datacenters, but none had the staff to spare on infrastructure engineering (which is why everyone wanted a PaaS in the first place). Several, like Shopify, contributed to Flynn financially so we could hire a dedicated team to build Flynn for everyone.
So a community/industry collaboration was absolutely our goal from the start, but several things made us question that route. Not only were our first choices for collaborators and partners unable to participate directly, but we spent a lot of time talking to companies in the then-thriving OpenStack community as well as other foundation/industry run infrastructure projects. They shared a number of horror stories of how the most promising new features and capabilities were killed by cross-vendor compatibility concerns and how specs were limited by legacy vendors on committees.
Committees and bureaucracies are great at keeping something alive and maintaining the status quo, but not at innovation.
We also met executives from very large companies in regulated sectors like banking and telecommunications. They were extremely excited about Flynn but had a completely different set of requirements than the younger companies like startups whose needs we knew best, and had experienced ourselves. It was clear that we would have to build a very different project to serve the largest of enterprise customers. Crucially, foundations/industry collaborations on infrastructure attract the largest of vendors who have these mega-companies in their sights as the real customers.
If you want to see what a PaaS built to their (imagined) needs are, look at CloudFoundry built by Pivotal, which is currently owned in part by Dell/EMC, VMWare, GE, Microsoft, Ford or at OpenShift, which was built as a startup but acquired and retooled by RedHat.
While we think Flynn has a lot to offer today and in the future to these large institutional users, they have not been our focus.
Flynn today has the minimum feature set we consider necessary to be useful. Looking towards the future we want it to encompass a lot more. We'll be publishing a comprehensive roadmap/master plan soon, but most of that innovation would be harder or impossible to accomplish if we were locked into a foundation today. Development would be slower, changes would have to work their way through approval to consensus, and many partners would object to new features competing with their own established products.
We've been very careful both to limit external dependencies and to provide end-to-end integration between all our components. As a result we're able to move very quickly when changing APIs, implementation details, even major pieces of architecture, all without impacting customers. This gives us the freedom to stay nimble in a changing landscape, but partners might be more attached to technologies in which they already had a large institutional investment.
Infrastructure companies today are already a world apart from where things were in 2008 when Heroku upended PaaS. The default is now open source, making lock-in (historically the bigger concern) far rarer. There are few companies among our peers battling to become the next Oracle.
Additionally there's a tremendous amount of portability both among unified PaaS's and build-your-own infrastructure because of technologies like buildpacks and containers. As a result most apps that run well on one platform can be moved to another. There are of course features, like Flynn's database appliances, that are not available on most others.
We've made other choices like a small codebase with few external dependencies that make managing Flynn's development and maintenance easier, whether it's our team or yours doing that maintenance.
That being said, we're entirely committed to Flynn's future personally. While we'd love to see it become a huge company, that's not necessary for us personally. We're a team of five, and speaking for at least my cofounder any myself, we're not going anywhere, regardless of the VC market.
We work on Flynn (for several years and many long hours now) because we believe it needs to exist in the world, not because we think it'll make us rich. We're committed to keeping Flynn alive as long as that stays true (basically until it becomes unnecessary or there's something else that does everything we want but better). Since our 1.0 launch we've had huge growth and adoption and are currently fundraising. We're single digit new customers away from default alive with the current team. Whether we become a small, sustainable company to selling to/partnering with a large enterprise vendor, to creating a foundation, everyone on the team is 100% committed to a permanent, sustainable future for the product, with or without venture capital, unicorns, or IPOs.
(Disclosure: I'm the CEO co-founder of Flynn)
Heroku is a great product and it going down permanently would be a huge loss to the community.
However there are a number of open source alternatives with very similar user experiences that you can run yourself in a variety of environments including:
https://flynn.io/ https://github.com/dokku/dokku http://deis.io/ https://www.openshift.com/
Absolutely. We're putting together a list right now, we just don't have permission from everyone to talk about it publicly yet. Hopefully we'll have quotes and case studies to post on the website soon.
We designed Flynn to be easy to install and use and for it to take care of itself as much as possible. Users generally get up and running and manage issues on their own.
Most current users (from individual developers to large organizations) haven't needed or wanted commercial support contracts. The offering is there for organizations who need significant help and/or an absolute guarantee that they'll be able to reach us at any hour of the day, every day of the year.
We're very active about providing as much free support as possible to users over email, github, and IRC. We've collected some great quotes from users about how impressed they are with our responsiveness.
Unfortunately we're a small team and frequently travel to events, etc. So it's expensive for us to guarantee that someone will be around. Obviously we'd like to provide support to as many people as possible at the lowest possible rate, so as we have more people paying for support and economies of scale kick in we hope to be able to drop those prices. In the meantime we need to cover our costs or development will stall
edit: our current prices are also based on the level of support that our most active beta users needed. Now that we're past 1.0 hopefully users will need less help which will also help lower prices. We have a very high bar for support quality and don't want to overextend ourselves to the point where we can't deliver
Flynn (YC S14) founders here. Happy to answer any questions.
Flynn co-founder here. Thanks for the question.
We view the work of the Kubernetes (and Mesos, Docker Swarm, and other scheduler projects) team as incredibly valuable to Flynn.
We try to solve problems and create value at a the platform layer. Schedulers are one technology we use, but aren't at the core of the value that we (or most other platforms) deliver. We want to make development and management of production apps simple and invisible. For most users that should mean never needing to know about or interact with a scheduler directly.
We closely monitor progress on the major scheduler projects and look forward to a day when we can utilize one of them in Flynn instead of maintaining our own. As these technologies mature we'll be able to deliver even more value on top of them, while saving users from interacting with lower level components.
Also see the study on aerosol transmission of prions:
At least in the technology industry many investments are astronomically expensive. See the acquisitions of Instagram, Whatsapp, et al. Having huge amounts of cash allows companies to suddenly expand into new fields (robotics, self driving cars, etc) without having to borrow anew from banks or investors.
We've done the same: https://flynn.io/blog/against-forced-updates
I also urge other founders and exec teams to join in. The best chance we have of stopping this is a strong show of agreement across the community.
Context:
After rescuing 1,700 boxes of manuals from a closing manual warehouse for future archiving and scanning,
"goodwill and the interest in these types of project shouldn’t fade away with the completion of the main part of the Manuals Plus project. He instead proposed that there be something like Archive Team for physical rescues. Naturally, there’s a lot to learn in that space, but with a level of speed and radical approaches that worked for Archive Team, maybe something good will come of it.
Therefore, in one line, I announce: ArchiveCorps."
Flynn cofounder here. The primary difference between Flynn and cloudfoundry, dawn, deis, dokku, octohost, openshift, tsuru, etc is that Flynn is designed to run everything itself, not just 12 factor web apps. Most immediately this means that you can run databases inside of Flynn alongside other apps. In fact we've already wrapped up postgres.
Flynn also tries to be more technology agnostic, for example we don't depend on CoreOS or Docker.
It's worth noting that several of the other platforms including Deis claim to be production ready today while Flynn is still a few months out.
The difference in both features and goals will be a lot clearer in the coming months. What we have today is just the foundation and minimum viable feature set. Once that's rock solid, the real work gets started.
and/or short-term salary reductions (especially for founders)
Seems dangerously close to SparkFun (https://sparkfun.com) trademark and space. I had to look hard to figure out it wasn't a sparkfun product.
Awesome!
From the CC license: "NonCommercial means not primarily intended for or directed towards commercial advantage or monetary compensation."
I'm definitely not a lawyer and would like to hear from one interpreting the license for this use case, but it sounds like that could be interpreted to mean not okay to use for a business if it generated a commercial advantage, like HIPAA compliance.
Clarification from your lawyer (published on your site) would be good if you aren't okay switching to a more permissive license.
Suggestion: name them "FREE HIPAA DOCS AVAILABLE AT [URL]" and use a license requiring attribution, should make them hard to resell?
The ops team at a company is the group responsible for running and scaling the apps after they've been written. The role varies from company to company, but in general they manage databases, underlying infrastructure, and other technology that power apps.
You could think of them as the sysadmins or IT team that powers especially public-facing services and websites. Think Twitter, HN, etc. The people in charge for making sure there are no fail whales are the ops team.
Ops is what you do after you write an application. Deploying it to one or more servers, connecting to databases, detecting, diagnosing, and fixing problems.
Flynn is a layer of software that sits between your application code and the servers it runs on to make all of that a lot easier, especially at scale.