Tesla suffers network outage disabling vehicles’ mobile app

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-23/tesla-suffers-network-outage-disabling-car-owners-mobile-app

by Element_ • 6 years ago

191 243 6 years ago

bloomberg.com

dk11382• 6 years ago

Article not blocked by paywall: https://electrek.co/2020/09/23/tesla-suffers-complete-networ...

fsflover• 6 years ago

And the corresponding HN submission: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24568236

junkrat002• 6 years ago

Disabling js also works

gmaster14402• 6 years ago

https://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/auth.tesla.com?proto=htt...

mikece2• 6 years ago

I'm rather surprised that the Tesla app can't operate in offline mode directly with the car. Due to the nature of a car I would think it's a forgone conclusion that the owner might drive to where the app can't connect with the cloud but should still be an authenticated and trusted issuer of digital commands to the car.

Time to add some use cases to the acceptance testing script...

nacs3• 6 years ago

At least there's still a physical key to work in offline mode.

My Nest thermostats on the other hand require Google connectivity to change the temperature even when I'm connected to the home wifi..

pwinnski2• 6 years ago

That's staggering to learn! I'm glad I've avoided Nest now.

AlexandrB• 6 years ago

Can't you just turn the dial?

jaywalk• 6 years ago

They require Google connectivity to change the temperature through the app. You can always change the temperature using the thermostat itself. Although it is absurd that there is zero local connectivity, this is Google we're talking about. If they allowed that, it would be trivial to just keep the thermostat offline and not allow Google to siphon up your precious data.

mikece2• 6 years ago

I'm wonder if a line of "smart IoT" devices where the assumption is that cloud-down is the primary use case (and cloud-connected is a secondary "nice to have" mode even if that's how it's used 90%+ of the time) would succeed?

slg3• 6 years ago

There is definitely some functionality that works when offline. Phones are the primary key for Model 3 and that works fine when unlocking the car in subterranean garages that have no reception.

nacs3• 6 years ago

Isn’t there also a touch-less entry key fob?

trca2• 6 years ago

Even with my phone in Airplane mode (WiFi / Cellular disabled), and only Bluetooth on, I'm still able to get into my Model 3. Internet connection is not required by the car, or the phone, to be able to unlock the car, drive, or operate the frunk / trunk.

dkonofalski6• 6 years ago

It is required if your app hasn't downloaded a new cert. If you're still able to get in via Bluetooth, it's only because the cert on your phone is still valid. Once that cert expires, you'll be locked out.

lance_t• 6 years ago

Model S and X don't have the same bluetooth antennas to do the proximity triangulation is my understanding and rely on the network connection from Car -> Tesla and App -> Tesla to unlock and start so may be different for S and X drivers?

kerng• 6 years ago

This is unlikely correct, because in many parking garages there is no Internet connectivity and hence this issue would have been heard of many many years ago.

dkonofalski6• 6 years ago

It's partially correct. The app will still work without internet connectivity if the cert that the app downloaded is still valid. If you close the app and re-open, the app tries to download another cert and would fail without internet connectivity. At that point, you would need to use a backup keycard.

cma• 6 years ago

They were supposed to have a Robotaxi network running this year, I wonder how it would have handled it? All cars pull over and wait on further instructions? Return to home base all at once?

taf2• 6 years ago

Seems to be resolved

gmaster14402• 6 years ago

Does this load for you? https://auth.tesla.com/

daphneokeefe• 6 years ago

Nope

bdamm10• 6 years ago

Not resolved for me. I'm getting the "Car is no longer in your Tesla account" error.

api4• 6 years ago

Why can't the app just talk directly to the car?

Oh yeah, because we broke the Internet with NAT.

mey• 6 years ago

That has nothing to do with NAT.

function_seven• 6 years ago

Why can't the app just talk directly to the car? No Internet needed at all[1]. NAT shouldn't even come into it. Local Wi-Fi or Bluetooth should work.

[1] Well, I suppose if you're not near the car, Internet would be needed. Does the car have a publicly reachable IP?

stu2b50• 6 years ago

I mean, it does talk to the car with Bluetooth. You can unlock it without internet connectivity, just locally via Bluetooth.

bdamm10• 6 years ago

The car does not have a publicly reachable IP. It is using message bus (Kafka pub-sub, I believe) to bridge phone and car. Tesla does publish an API for anyone that wants to control a car (uses OAUTH for authorization.) Other than being unable to revoke tokens from within the car, it works great and solves the fleet management problem. (It is possible to simply entirely disable remote access from within the car, so this is a partial solution that Tesla does already.)

trca2• 6 years ago

The app does talk directly to the car, when you're in range of Bluetooth. That's how the phone key functions, all handoff and communications are done via bluetooth, not the internet when the devices are in range. Even with my phone in airplane mode (WiFi/Cellular disabled), and only Bluetooth on, I'm still able to unlock/lock the car, drive, and open the frunk/trunk.

api4• 6 years ago

That's not what I meant. I mean why can't the app learn the car's IP address using the cloud and then just connect directly to the car? That way if the cloud goes down it still works as long as its IP doesn't change.

It just amazes me that literally everything has to round trip to the cloud for everything. It's like we forgot that things can connect to each other.

ChuckMcM• 6 years ago

I'm curious if this was in retaliation for them helping arrest a russian malware hacker.[1]

[1] https://electrek.co/2020/08/27/tesla-fbi-prevent-ransomware-...

mtviewdave2• 6 years ago

I just tried this with my Tesla. The app cannot connect over the internet to the car, but unlocking and starting the car still works, as does using the app to open the charge port and the front trunk.

The Tesla app uses both internet and bluetooth to connect to the car. I would expect that even with no internet connectivity, bluetooth-related functionality would continue to work, and at least today, that is the case.

EDIT: After seeing dawnerd's comment, I just re-opened the app (didn't kill it, it was in background), and now the entry for my car is gone, which means all the bluetooth functionality I mentioned above no longer works. That's one hell of a bug.

dawnerd• 6 years ago

Don't close the app - I just tried and now bluetooth doesn't even work.

brianwawok• 6 years ago

Hopefully the keycard would? I do carry it in my wallet just in case...

0df8dkdf• 6 years ago

Love blue tooth, it is how Hong Kong guys circumvented the internet censorship. Really looking forward to when, users realize to NOT rely on the internet, and an app should work without internet.

jackfoxy• 6 years ago

Mechanical systems generally have well established failure modes, frequently related to parts wearing out with use. Often these failures can be predicted by warning signs or history of use.

Networked software systems generally have completely unknown and unpredictable failure modes.

Do you really want important infrastructure like your automobile dependent on networked software?

andyfleming• 6 years ago

Though the timing may be unpredictable the failure mode seems clear.

epistasis• 6 years ago

The regular NFC card still works fine.

When I took delivery of my car, the guy told me to just always keep the NFC card in my wallet. Honestly I thought it was more likely that I would have a dead phone than Tesla would have a network outage, particularly one lasting multiple hours, but I guess my phone charging is more reliable than their network configs. Given how unreliable and flaky I am, it's pretty damning of Tesla's technical chops.

mtviewdave2• 6 years ago

The key card still works, as I would expect. The car isn't dependent upon network infrastructure; an optional convenience is dependent upon it. You can operate a Tesla fully without installing the Tesla app.

As a comparison, my last car was a BMW. For that car, I had key fobs. I always had to take one of these key fobs in order to unlock and use the car. So going out, I would have one key with which I could operate the car.

Now, because I always carry the key card in my wallet, and I always have my phone, I always have _two_ keys with me. This isn't worse than having only one key, even if one of the keys is failing today due to an internet outage.

Essentially, I'm experiencing the worst case scenario right now, which is that I'm exactly the same situation as when I had my BMW. It's annoying (and as an iOS dev, I Have Questions on how the app came to be architected such that a network outage erases the app's settings). But I'm not worse off

PinguTS• 6 years ago

The problem is even more complex. For most people it is just the app right now. But what people do not realize is, that the devices networked in the car itself are trusting each other by some means of certificates. These certificates needs to be renewed regualry. If there servers are becoming unavailable for a longer time while the certificates expire, the connected device will not trust each other and will refuse to work.

Whatarethese• 6 years ago

Your power grid runs on networked software. The key is redundancy.

kelnos2• 6 years ago

Do you really want important infrastructure like your automobile dependent on networked software?

Is the automobile actually dependent on this infrastructure, or does that infra just provide some nice perks and extra features? If the car will still lock, unlock, drive, and refuel -- indefinitely -- without the network components, then I wouldn't consider it dependent on the network.

Of course, when adding extra features, we should strive to only make them dependent on the network if they truly require the network as a part of their basic premise. I suspect the Tesla has some extra features that could work fine without the network, but are probably broken because of this, and that's... not great.

cesarb2• 6 years ago

Networked software systems generally have completely unknown and unpredictable failure modes.

"A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you didn't even know existed can render your own computer unusable." -- Leslie Lamport, 1987 (https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/distributed-system.tx...)

donarb• 6 years ago

Musk will text out don't worry, it's an anti-theft measure, stock jumps up 5%.

SomeHacker44• 6 years ago

Tesla very clearly says that you should have your physical key (card or fob) with you at all times. I keep my card key in my wallet, next to my unused mass transit card.

boznz• 6 years ago

I wouldnt expect any vehicle to only work from a network connection as a lot of people regularly live or park their car outside of cellular and wifi coverage, I guess thats why they say to take your keys/rfid card with you

bobthepanda3• 6 years ago

Honestly, the prospect of having parts of my car have to depend on American network reliability is a huge issue for me. I've had friends stuck outside their Zipcars because they can no longer unlock it in the parking lot of a trailhead.

tensor4• 6 years ago

It doesn't. There is a backup keycard you are supposed to have on you somewhere.

bobthepanda3• 6 years ago

If this is a common enough problem, then maybe the issue is the fact that they offer a marginally more convenient but network-limited option that lulls people into a false sense of security.

blueblisters• 6 years ago

Zipcar could have implemented a quick/easy solution to this problem: allow the card to unlock the car offline until it has been returned. Or force the renters to lock it using the keys during the duration of the rental. This just seem to be too common an issue not to have been addressed somehow.

bdamm10• 6 years ago

No part of Tesla cars requires the use of mobile networks for basic car operation. It is just the extended functions such as pre-cooling the car remotely, or initiating "Smart Summon" (to have the car drive to you from across the parking lot) that requires mobile network connectivity. If you just want to do typical car stuff like drive somewhere you don't need cellular or Wi-Fi.

judge2020• 6 years ago

Quite a few things just died:

https://downdetector.com/

https://downdetector.com/status/rocket-league/

stevehawk• 6 years ago

Rocket League being down (unplanned) is a near weekly occurrence and may just be coincidental.

frakkingcylons• 6 years ago

Rocket League just went free to play today, so it’s a bit different.

RLdown• 6 years ago

Rocket league became free today. Many are downloading it right now.

throwaway5752• 6 years ago

Feels like regional outages. Doesn't bode well about 45 days out from this election.

jlv2• 6 years ago

From the article: “If you’re unable to unlock your car and drive, that’s a problem,” he said.

That's a bogus comment hovering on FUD.

In no general usage do you need app access to the car via the Internet in order to unlock or drive. My wife just drove one of our cars during the outage and didn't even known it was ongoing.

I would assume that even with the Model 3 using the phone as a key, it just uses LE Bluetooth -- not Internet access via the app.

mrguyorama3• 6 years ago

As the poster right above you mentioned, the local bluetooth functions don't work unless the app recently connected to the Tesla servers.

Are there teslas without physical "key" cards of fobs?

the_duke• 6 years ago

No. S/X have fobs and 3/Y have key cards.

I'd bet that a good number of owners don't always carry them around though.

AshleyGrant• 6 years ago

Are there teslas without physical "key" cards of fobs?

martythemaniak4• 6 years ago

They come with 2 cards and you can always buy more online. So yes, if you threw away your keys there are keyless Teslas.

cptskippy6• 6 years ago

See my experience: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24570450

I was unaware of the outage and did my normal routine obliviously and without ever opening the App. When I read about the outage, I opened the app and it basically gave me the middle finger. For shits and giggles I tried to use the car and it still worked.

So I'm not sure how the Phone talks to the Car but for me, on Android, the App losing it's mind didn't kill my phone's ability to drive the car.

I also carry my card with me at all times in case something happens to my phone. Seeing as how the replacements are only $25, I might pick up one or two just in case.

gamblor9568• 6 years ago

Apparently the multiple Tesla owners on this thread and online are all just spreading FUD about how they can't open their own cars this morning...

As other commenters have noted, the problem arises if your Tesla app needs to update its license or whatever this morning. If it did, you're SOL until they fix the bug. If it didn't, like apparently your wife's Tesla app, then you won't experience the problem.

root_axis6• 6 years ago

It's FUD in the sense that the App is just a popular convenience and not something that's required to unlock or start the vehicle.

cptskippy6• 6 years ago

I wouldn't call it FUD. I wasn't aware of any outage and just went about my day dropping the kiddo off at Daycare this morning without issue.

I just now opened up the App to see if I was affected and it gave the usually "Waking up car" message before kicking me out to a splash screen that says "No Products Found\r\nJoin the Mission"(https://i.imgur.com/n34IKUc.png). When I try to view my account it displays an error (https://i.imgur.com/JnD6gev.png).

And with the App in that state I just checked and the car let me put it in gear. So even without my key(card) it still recognized me.

Idk what's going on but I wouldn't outright dismiss it as FUD.

Shivetya• 6 years ago

Well lets see.

(update 3:10 EST - app connectivity restore)

So I noticed the app would not connect earlier when I went to lunch so I just hopped in an drove to and from the store. I did use the app to open the frunk but I did not bother to see if it would sync up to the car.

However in the name of science I swiped the app off the phone so I had to restart it. Still could use my car. Now if the app is not loaded I cannot use the car. So I start the app and instantly I can use my car.

Now let me make it clear, at no time has the app forgotten which car I own. I am not sure how that falls off the app if it cannot connect? I am using an iPhone if that matters.

My Mac App, ValetforTesla of course cannot find the car as it needs to get back to the mothership.

On a side note, I had similar issues with my Volt's app when OnStar went on the blink but that car relies on the fob to unlock the car and drive off, all I lost was stats and ability to remote start.

ryanmarsh• 6 years ago

I'll take your comment a step further, you don't need any of the screens to drive the car (2018 S) either. I once had a (software) crash and reboot at highway speeds, only thing I noticed (besides the screens going black) was the A/C turned off and back on.

root_axis6• 6 years ago

I think that's a step too far. Losing the screen while in motion is quite disorienting, yes the car continues to function fine mechanically, but you lose all of your telemetry, voice commands, maps/navigation, and some other critical functions like wiper settings. In addition to that, the Model 3 has very poor rear visibility, so it's pretty unsafe to do much of any backing up without screen-view cameras.

rasz• 6 years ago

Reboot is mild, how about freeze on both screens? Its good to know how to ALt-Ctrl-Del Tesla dash https://tesla-info.com/reboot.php

fomine32• 6 years ago

Driving feature should work with display off, but I'll fear and possibly panic if all displays down suddenly while driving.

encom• 6 years ago

Most of this thread is material for @internetofshit[1].

Hot take: I would rather walk than use my phone to unlock my car, not to mention having my car connected to the internet in the first place. If you're affected by this, you have no one but yourself to blame. This really is the clowniest timeline.

[1]https://twitter.com/internetofshit

martythemaniak4• 6 years ago

The cars have keys, the apps are for added convenience.

jimbob45• 6 years ago

Tesla has beaten everyone to the electric car mass market and that’s great. However, every report I see contains failures of the cars like these such that the car itself is poorly designed. What’s stopping Toyota or Isuzu from making a me-too version of the Tesla? What competitive advantage does Tesla have beyond being first to the market?

martythemaniak4• 6 years ago

You can watch yesterday's battery day event for a hint: https://youtu.be/l6T9xIeZTds?t=6028

mrtksn• 6 years ago

Toyota doesn’t have a celebrity CEO that can push through unreasonable product tied to a promise of having a good product in the feature. Tesla’s competitive advantage is Elon Musk.

Try selling crappy and expensive product with a promise of using the money and expertise to build a better one next time.

Yesterday’s battery day was also a promise to do great things in the future.

Autopilot is something that Tesla sells with the promise of one day becoming self-driving car.

Who else can do that? The others need to put their own money to bet on that and need to deliver good value products with reasonable quality for the money asked.

avalys2• 6 years ago

Speaking as a car nut and long-time Tesla skeptic who eventually broke down and bought a Model 3 - the car is not poorly designed, it's just not perfect, and any imperfection gets amplified by the company's high profile and the army of people that seem to want to tear them down.

dk11382• 6 years ago

Same. Bought a 3 at the beginning of August. Is it perfect? No. Is it the best driving experience I've ever had? Bar none. I sometimes take it out just to drive in the evenings. I plug it into my house and have a full tank every day. The power on demand is incredible. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Do I feel like I overpaid? Not in the slightest. My last new car was a Mazda 3 and I feel as though the 5k difference in cost is negligible to the gas savings.

misiti3780• 6 years ago

I just bought a model 3 in august and love it. best driving experience i have ever had. what are the obvious imperfections?

gamblor9568• 6 years ago

The batteries.

Tesla cars are the worst-built, worst-furnished cars you can buy at their price points. If you care about comfort, ride quality, etc., go with anything but a Tesla.

But Tesla's batteries are industry-leading. If Tesla were to shed their EV-money pit, they'd easily earn their current valuation just by selling their batteries to everyone in the auto and power industries.

But by keeping their batteries limited to just their small share of the auto market, they've given their competitors reason to do their own research into battery/EV technology, and it's already starting to hurt them in Europe, where Tesla was outsold by other EV brands/models in several countries over the past few months, and that's without their major competitors having yet brought mass-market EVs to market.

etaioinshrdlu• 6 years ago

I was in a friend's new-ish BMW recently and I felt the interior had a poorly-built, cheap, plasticky feel compared to Tesla. So let's just say that your opinion is not universal :)

jeffbee• 6 years ago

The only reason Panasonic tolerates the existence of Tesla is that Tesla operates as the global marketing division of Panasonic batteries. If Tesla sheds the EV business then Panasonic will no longer deal with them.

The idea that Tesla is fundamentally a battery company is just weird. All of their battery chemistry, technology, and capacity is from Panasonic in one way or another.

zeroxfe2• 6 years ago

Tesla cars are the worst-built, worst-furnished cars you can buy at their price points. If you care about comfort, ride quality, etc., go with anything but a Tesla.

Ride quality? The Tesla is by far the nicest, smoothest, and most fun ride I've ever experienced.

The in-car tech is pretty awesome too.

bwanab• 6 years ago

The batteries, the supercharger network, the software.

I think you’re reacting to the media presentation. Even though 100s of thousands of people have perfectly fine operation every day, that isn’t going to make the news. The few breakages do.

Sohcahtoa829• 6 years ago

the supercharger network

This is so incredibly underappreciated.

Are their other charging networks? Yes, certainly. But they're either too slow for road tripping, they're spread thin, and/or they're expensive. I can drive my Model 3 from my home in Portland, OR to any anywhere in the USA and never spend more than 30 minutes charging, with most stops being 10-20 minutes every 100-200 miles.

I don't know what a typical supercharger costs as they vary on location, I just know that the one I've used is 29 cents per kWh. So to charge my Model 3's 75 kWh battery to full would cost $21.75, which would give me about 250 miles (It's rated at 299 miles, but you'll never get that unless you're going 55 mph with climate controls off), which is 8.7 cents per mile. If you assume gas is $3.50/gallon, then in terms of price per mile, it's the equivalent to a 40 mpg car.

Other charging networks are usually 40 cents/kWh or more, while charging slower. Some have a ridiculous charge per minute rather than charging per kWh.

tensor4• 6 years ago

The Model 3 is the most well designed car I've ever used. There are some rough edges, but it's a huge leap forward for car UX. I'd actually argue that Tesla has as much or more of an advantage and head start on UX as they do on battery technology.

bmitc2• 6 years ago

it's a huge leap forward for car UX

Could you give any examples?

For comparison, I have a Kia Optima SXL, and I find the fit and finish to be beyond any Tesla that I have ridden in. Kia has a strange reputation (despite now being one of the best automakers), and even with this reputation, the car gets many complements and comments. I am also a big fan of buttons, and I simply find having buttons where I know where they're at and how they feel are far superior to navigating a touchscreen. Is the touchscreen cool? Yes, I suppose. Is it better UX or functionality? No, in my opinion. At no point have I ever wished to take all the functionality my car has and have it jammed into a single large touchscreen in the middle of the dash.

I have also ridden in multiple Chinese brands like NIO, BYD, and other more affordable brands. The NIO, upon initial impression, immediately outclassed the Teslas that I have ridden in (Model S and X) in terms of design, especially on the inside. The BYD and others that you find the DiDi drivers driving are all very impressive and affordable such that they easily compete with Tesla. When I was in China, it was "wait, what car is this?!" day after day. We must have saw half a dozen fully electric car models.

speedgoose3• 6 years ago

Phantom brakes did kill the dream for me. I simply can't drive a car that will randomly brake hard for no good reasons when using basic features such as adaptative cruise control. It's uncomfortable, scary, and dangerous.

speedgoose3• 6 years ago

Other car manufacturers are producing EVs today. Not Toyota, they did bet on hydrogen cars and lost years.

Also, I would argue that Nissan was first to release an good enough and affordable EV in 2011.

The concurrence for EVs is strong in Europe now, and Tesla is not the best selling car company anymore. See for example the Norwegian stats : https://elbilstatistikk.no/ That may change when Tesla will make smaller and more affordable vehicles in Europe.

ChrisClark• 6 years ago

I don't see how this is a problem. My Tesla comes with a key (card) so even if the app might fail, I'll always be able to drive perfectly fine. The card is in my wallet, I just hold my wallet up to the door and get in.

Just one of a variety of conveniences is currently down.

Wowfunhappy6• 6 years ago

But why does the app need internet access in the first place to unlock a car over bluetooth?

cavisne• 6 years ago

if your phone gets stolen you can remove the phone as a key, this info needs to be synced back from tesla.

It doesn't need internet access to unlock it, but it needs periodic internet access to sync this info.

dkonofalski6• 6 years ago

It only needs it to sync the cert that tells the car the phone is authorized as a key. If your cert is still valid, you can still unlock with Bluetooth via your phone. If it's not, it'll try to update and download the cert, fail, and won't let you use Bluetooth.

bmitc2• 6 years ago

Isn't a problem in the sense that a company hypes itself up and markets itself by all these market differentiators, but then when these fail, the company and others just shrug it off and they suddenly become just conveniences?

What's the point of having these features in the app if you need to carry a key around all the time due to the app features being unreliable and poorly implemented?

How does the card work if the electronic mechanism to read it fails? Do you then need to also carry around an actual key fob?

My car, like most modern cars, has a keyless entry fob, but if that fails or the battery in the car completely dies, there is still mechanical entry points to get into the car and start the car.

modeless2• 6 years ago

What's the point of having these features in the app if you need to carry a key around all the time due to the app features being unreliable and poorly implemented?

The point is that the key fits in your wallet. It's way nicer to carry, and then the phone gives you the convenience features that you'd usually get from a bulky fob, and much more.

The app is anything but unreliable; in fact the keyless entry and walk-away lock features have worked completely flawlessly for me for more than a year (very uncharacteristic of a feature that relies on Bluetooth). An app malfunction is way less likely than my phone being lost or broken or out of battery; those are the more important reasons to carry the key card.

If the car battery dies then the key card won't open the door. But the car also can't drive, and that seems like the bigger problem. Your ICE car also can't start with a dead battery, so being able to open the door is marginally useful. In both cases you need to fix the battery before you can drive the car. (Yes, there is emergency access to the battery without opening the door.)

phone86753093• 6 years ago

I hope people keep this in mind when you purchase "DLC" features for your car - features that you can unlock after purchase like this: https://www.cars.com/articles/bmw-software-updates-will-enab...

xeromal7• 6 years ago

DLC can be problematic but it can also be a benefit. An example with Tesla is that the Model 3 recently received an option to improve its off the line acceleration after Tesla monitored enough usage to see if there were any motor and battery issues in their new model 3. You'd have to wait to get a new car in the old world.

hellotomyrars2• 6 years ago

It has been very problematic in the case of Tesla, as they have stripped features from resold vehicles.

If I bought a car from anyone else, everything I bought the car with will be on the car when I resell it. I'm sure some people will tell me I just need to understand this exciting and innovative new paradigm pioneered by Tesla, but I'd like to think most people can understand how this is anti-consumer behavior and really gross.

phone86753093• 6 years ago

My previous comment was discussing paid DLC - content that may require an active connection to check authorization for and may disable features if it cannot verify online that you have purchased.

Free DLC/software updates that do not have such a check would not be impacted by a loss of network connectivity, but thank you for raising that issue explicitly.

jedberg• 6 years ago

There are a lot of people saying, "This isn't a problem, just use the key/keycard". Which is a fair thing to say, but not what Tesla markets.

Tesla strongly markets the idea that "all you need is the phone".

I know that my in-laws with a Tesla don't carry the key cards. They just use their phone.

So either Tesla needs to make a much stronger push for carrying one's key/keycard, or they need to fix the bug that makes the local bluetooth on the app stop working (or both).

Maybe some people will learn an important lesson here and start carrying their cards.

tensor4• 6 years ago

The Tesla sales person told me to keep the keycard in my wallet or somewhere similar.

Sohcahtoa829• 6 years ago

I don't recall being told that during my test drive or during delivery, but even if they didn't, it seemed like a no-brainer thing to do.

A lost, broken, or dead phone is a common failure case. If you know your phone is your key, then you should be considering what your backup will be. Since you already need to be carrying something with your license, it makes sense to keep a key card with it.

dkonofalski6• 6 years ago

Where does Tesla market the idea that "all you need is the phone"? When you enable the phone as a key, it explicitly tells you to keep your keycard with you as a backup and that the phone is for convenience only.

People may primarily use their phone because it's convenient (I definitely do) but that doesn't mean Tesla marketed it that way to me.

xoa• 6 years ago

As a practical matter this is reinforced as well by the need to still carry a driver's license. In principle the government could offer a secure digital ID, but it doesn't. Phone payment also isn't at 100%, so a backup credit card also still a good idea.

So it's necessary to have the ability to have a card on hand anyway, and at that point it's not much of a stretch to have a couple. Either via a phone case or whole wallet, but it's not like someone can (legally) just take their phone with them when going for a drive. Keeping the keycard along with license and credit card is still fairly minimal (phone digital wallet can consolidate a lot of fat card packs beyond those).

I guess the bigger risk is that while I always at least take my wallet with me in the car, I don't always take it with me out of my car while I always have my phone. Might be nice if Tesla had at least an option for some sort of fallback auth mechanism built into the car itself, be it keypad or biometric. The ones in phones are pretty good and are a pretty tiny item on the BOM, in a $35k+ vehicle seems like there should be room for it as an option?

Maybe that's overthinking it though, not like regular cars tend to have those either. Sometimes people just lock themselves out with regular keys too and that's that.

millerm3• 6 years ago

Exactly, I always have my key card on me. I'm not stupid.

slg3• 6 years ago

Tesla barely markets anything. They don't do any advertising so their only real informational marketing is what is on their website and what you hear directly from Tesla employees including Musk (who often speaks out of his ass). Tesla would probably be better served to have a more defined and clearer marketing message. That would certainly help avoid the controversy about how Autopilot is or is not marketed.

root_axis6• 6 years ago

I know that my in-laws with a Tesla don't carry the key cards. They just use their phone

Are you actually sure you know that they don't carry the key card in their wallet? Why wouldn't they? I find this pretty doubtful, it just seems like a pointlessly unnecessary way to risk getting locked out of your vehicle if your phone happens to die or becomes otherwise incapacitated. What possible reason could anyone have for not just keeping the card in their wallet as instructed by Tesla associates upon receipt of the vehicle and the cards themselves? It just doesn't make sense.

cesarb2• 6 years ago

in their wallet

Playing devil's advocate: what wallet? As more and more functionality is moved to the smartphone, the less reason to carry a wallet there is. A smartphone can already replace credit cards (Google Pay and similar), cash (several per-country payment systems, the one for my country will be released in a couple of months), and even the driving license! (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=br.gov.serpro....)

In a more humorous note, I've seen many people use their cell phone as their wallet... by putting their identity card and cash inside the aftermarket cell phone cover on the back of the phone.

bdcravens2• 6 years ago

If you lose your phone (or have it stolen), does that mean you can't drive home?

clintonb• 6 years ago

If you lose your car keys, does that mean you can’t drive home?

The phone and keycard are keys. If you lose them, you lose access to the car.

strawberrypuree• 6 years ago

If you have your Tesla account password memorized, you can turn any old smartphone -- a friend's, one you buy at Target -- into the key if you so choose.

cbsmith4• 6 years ago

I think the weird thing is the app won't finish starting until it has linked up over the Internet, which is problematic on a bunch of fronts. Even when things are working properly, it keeps the app from loading quickly... not something you want to see with a key-entry system.

dbcurtis• 6 years ago

wat? so if you are out of cell phone coverage the ap won’t start? ?

kemiller2• 6 years ago

I mean, the card is shaped like a credit card so people can keep it in their wallets so there's not much excuse. It seems pretty dumb to 100% rely on a device whose battery can run out.

bdamm10• 6 years ago

And it's a thin card with no embossing. There's really no excuse. And convenient if you drop your phone in a river, like I did a few weeks ago while out kayaking. Upon returning to my Tesla, I unlocked it with my key card because of course I carry it with me.

chinathrow• 6 years ago

So either Tesla needs to make a much stronger push for carrying one's key/keycard, or they need to fix the bug that makes the local bluetooth on the app stop working (or both).

I think they just did that stronger push, albeit involuntary :)

TurkishPoptart• 6 years ago

What happens if your phone's battery dies?

millerm3• 6 years ago

Time to tell your in-laws to keep their key cards with them.

adoxyz• 6 years ago

This is just wrong. All the instructions tell you to keep your keycard on you at all times. And the keycard is literally the size of a debit card. Just put it in your wallet with your ID and you never have to worry about a network outage.

I keep my keycard with me at all times and it's come in handy when my phone died or the app was just being stubborn.

kelnos2• 6 years ago

Regardless of what Tesla markets, it would seem to be incredibly foolish to rely on your phone in this manner. If you're miles away from home, and you drop your phone and it breaks, or your phone's battery simply dies, I bet you'll feel pretty stupid when you walk up to your car and are unable to unlock or start it via any other means.

Carrying around the key cards just seems like taking a basic amount of responsibility.

NotSammyHagar4• 6 years ago

I disagree, I've never heard them market it as 'you just need the phone'. I've had one for 10 years now. Relying just on a phone is incredibly stupid, for obvious reasons. Do they never drive into a parking garage with no service? Have they never had a phone die suddenly - that's how mine always seem to go? What if you drive where there is no service, out in the country?

gowld2• 6 years ago

You don't need "Service" for Bluetooth.

xedeon• 6 years ago

Tesla strongly markets the idea that "all you need is the phone".

I've been a Tesla owner for quite a while now. I don't recall seeing that in any marketing material. More-so being "strongly". It's pretty silly not to carry the key cards as a backup for the Model 3/Y (S and X use traditional RF key fobs).

They are also only $12 each! https://shop.tesla.com/product/model-3_y-key-card I carry one in my wallet and iPhone case.

tersers• 6 years ago

I'm surprised by many of the comments in this thread. For those who keep referring back to the keycard/fob access, those are still software solutions and can themselves be susceptible to some bug. Just because it's a backup doesn't mean it's any more reliable than the more "convenient" solution.

cblconfederate• 6 years ago

Cars are just not phones, don't treat them as such

novok• 6 years ago

Teslas need to work properly offline, and stuff that could be offline like opening the car with your phone needs to keep on working.

neonate• 6 years ago

https://archive.is/TIJ7s

golem14• 6 years ago

Could this co-incide with the latest comcast outage in the bay area ?

millerm3• 6 years ago

In the end it's the car operator's fault.

From the Model 3 manual:

CAUTION: Always carry your key card with you in your purse or wallet to use as a backup in case your authenticated phone has a dead battery, or is lost or stolen.

Again, sure maybe people will NOT do this, but you cannot blame Tesla for this. Services fail all the time. The phone as a key is just a convenience. This same silly FUD went around earlier this year as well. Nobody got locked out of their car by a failure of Tesla. They locked themselves out of their own cars.

sschueller• 6 years ago

Just like Tesla aggressively overselling you auto pilot but in the fine print it's you fault if it doesn't work... /s

At what point does the manufacturer take some responsibility for their blatant lies to sell cars?

bdamm10• 6 years ago

It's also posted in the car when the phone key is added. In my case, the handover agent specifically told me to keep my key card with me. It's not really a secret, nor is Tesla saying you should only use your phone as a key and nothing else. Tesla's marketing is that you can use your phone as your key - and they're right, and it's also very convenient. It's not the same thing to say that users should only rely on their phones. They can't anyway, since the car will require the key card when adding a phone.

sib• 6 years ago

Of course, if you read that literally, none of those things ("phone has a dead battery, or is lost or stolen") happened, and Tesla's screwup still caused a problem.

(Note, both my wife and I own Model 3's and I own $TSLA, so I'm no hater... I do carry a card key in my wallet, but I don't carry my wallet 100% of the time that I need to get into my car.)

nunez• 6 years ago

It's crazy to me that people won't carry a key card that is literally designed to be placed into a wallet.

altdatathrow• 6 years ago

Again, sure maybe people will NOT do this, but you cannot blame Tesla for this.

Are you serious? Of course you can blame Tesla for this. Their car is a goddamn touch screen on wheels, and it doesn't function.

ra7• 6 years ago

Does Tesla even have a status page for the online services they provide to cars? I couldn't find one.

Tesla suffers network outage disabling vehicles’ mobile app

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