Living without a SIM card

https://habd.as/post/living-without-sim-card/

by jhabdas • 6 years ago

319 277 6 years ago

habd.as

neilkakkar2• 6 years ago

Not trolling: How does your life feel different knowing your data is not being stored in some database?

Losing out on all those conveniences sounds miserable to me.

deugtniet• 6 years ago

It's called peace of mind. Some people worry about their privacy being violated. Without the sim, there is less tracking, so less to worry about.

sarakayakomzin• 6 years ago

It's called peace of mind

Is it? because from my perspective you've taken yourself out of a few databases (AT&T / Verizon / Telco) and plopped yourself into a few other databases (2nd Line, Grab) without having a whole lot of benefit.

nicky04• 6 years ago

Some of us struggle with having constant connection to the internet in our pocket. Its a distraction at its mildest, and an damaging, health affecting addiction at worst (social media, and 24/7 work/communication expectations especially).

Well done to those of you who are able to carry around a smartphone and regulate yourselves but some of us need to take more drastic action to cut it out.

microtonal2• 6 years ago

Get a SIM without a data plan? You can still call or SMS people, get SMS 2FA when required, but you can't use social media apps.

I cut my phone use by removing most social media apps. I have also disabled notifications for most remaining apps, except for Facetime and iMessage (since I use them for high signal/noise ratio communication with friends an family).

neilkakkar2• 6 years ago

That makes sense, but wasn't mentioned as a core reason in the post, so I'm assuming it's not that for author.

melling• 6 years ago

When I travel overseas, if I can’t get a cheap SIM and data plan, I’m living for days trying to find public WiFi.

Colombia has lots of free WiFi in parks, for example. We should be doing this everywhere.

microtonal2• 6 years ago

I fear things will go in the opposite direction with ubiquitous 4G. Very often 4G is already much faster than most WiFi hot spots, to the point that I don't even bother anymore and just use personal hot spot on my laptop.

dtmf-io3• 6 years ago

The problem is that free public WiFi is wildly variable in quality, whereas 4G is usually quite good. Most of the time I just tether even if there's WiFi available since I can use my data plan in most countries and the WiFi is usually disappointing.

Also, many countries now require public hotspots to verify the user by getting them to receive an SMS. In some countries it even has to be a local number, because they have compulsory SIM registration, so requiring a local number lets them tie the Internet usage to an identity.

alltakendamned• 6 years ago

You can also get 2GB prepaid for 3 weeks for less than 2 USD :)

Ayesh5• 6 years ago

If saving money is the reason, go for a prepaid card. German/Dutch prepaid cards have far long credit life. I travel full-time nowadays and I can use my KPN number for less than €1 per year.

German Alditalk credit lasts 24 months IIRC, and topping up extends the credit shelf life.

Pretty much every SIM card has free incoming SMS when roaming. USSD are also free with some carriers.

Losing SIM card is less of a hassle with eSIMs.

Perhaps other than tracking concerns, I'm totally not convinced with the reasoning.

testis321• 6 years ago

Perhaps other than tracking concerns, I'm totally not convinced with the reasoning.

Tracking is not an issue, if you keep your phone in airplane mode (wifi and bluetooth can be enabled on most phones, but mobile network stays disabled), or if you just remove the sim card, and put it back, on those rare occasion when you need it (so you don't have to bother other people)

paublyrne• 6 years ago

If you have wifi turned on then what's to stop you being tracked. I imagine Google Maps can track you using a combination of GPS and WiFi, as well as working out your likely route between locations for periods you're out of contact.

ferzul3• 6 years ago

A German/Dutch sim card doesn't help someone living in Indonesia/Malaysia.

Also, the fact that the credit lasts 24 months before they steal it for not using it is meaningless, since life with a sim that has no data and makes no outgoing calls or sms is almost identical to life without a sim, except for the tracking and the ability to be found by others.

So i think it completely misses the message.

Ayesh5• 6 years ago

You can receive unlimited amount of SMSs for free.

valgeirg• 6 years ago

use tor, brave, vpn whatever. use prepaid unregistered sim. get online when you want, live :-) or just cut off you leg to fix your toe.

AdrianB1• 6 years ago

Getting a prepaid unregistered SIM is no longer possible in an increasing number of countries. I think most of Europe requires identification to buy a prepaid SIM.

wh1t3n01s3• 6 years ago

Have you ever heard of LycaMobile?

dtmf-io3• 6 years ago

The UK notably doesn't, and most providers are still doing "roam like at home" with the EU despite the UK having left.

dannyw2• 6 years ago

Thankfully this is still possible in the US... for now.

simpss• 6 years ago

I have not had an issue buying a prepaid sim in eastern europe AND EU is a "free roaming" zone, so if it works in the Eastern parts, it's going to work everywhere else as well.

hasfhashdahsd• 6 years ago

So you freed yourself of the hassle of paying for a SIM, but constantly rely on others who have a SIM to get around?

German Freenet Funk offers one-day-one-euro prepaid SIM; you can cancel any day.

Satellite.me gives you a German mobile number through an app for free (SMS support is in alpha, though).

Broken_Hippo• 6 years ago

Some of the inconveniences listed aren't really a thing: For example, you can use google services on devices with no sim so long as you have it connected to wifi. I figured this out because i had a new phone that wouldn't accept the SIM size, so I carried both that and the working phone with the sim for a short time. Google Maps and Open street maps works offline, but you need to be online to, say, get driving directions. Google will still give turn-by-turn directions offline, though. It simply won't have the same features of your choice of maps.

I think facebook still works so long as you have signed up from a computer, but I might be wrong. I've only considered having it on my tablet (that has never had a sim), but never bothered to install it on my phone.

So many things depend more on the device being on the internet (through whatever means) than having the sim card. The main thing you need it for is phone calls, SMS, and roaming internet - and sometimes, banking, but not always. I've realized this because my phone has roaming internet turned off by defaut - I use wifi as my primary phone internet and as it turns out, I pay minimal amounts for the phone (I'm not willing to go without, even though it is rarely used).

josteink• 6 years ago

For example, you can use google services on devices with no sim

Considering there have been WiFi-only Android tablets since forever this cannot possibly be news to anyone?

pbhjpbhj• 6 years ago

It's news to me, I thought you needed (in the UK) a phone number to register with Google. They send you a text message as part of onboarding (or did last I tried). That's common to most online social apps now, perhaps all of them?

goblin892• 6 years ago

…it's the only thing which has prevented me from having to continually make international calls from a friends phone

By relying on other people it is possible to do without many things.

However, unless you have other ways of signaling sufficient status or wealth (such as being a digital nomad living abroad in a lower income country), people you continuously rely on for essentials might start treating you with a little less respect.

njitbew• 6 years ago

My sister’s former boyfriend used to carry a phone without a SIM. His mom ended up calling my sister or our landline to check up on her son. It was annoying AF.

Feel free to live off the grid, but please make sure you don’t leech off of those around you.

thaumasiotes• 6 years ago

The example doesn't quite seem to connect to the moral. Maybe he didn't want his mom to call him. If a third party calls you to inquire about me, why is that my problem?

jakobegger2• 6 years ago

make sure you don’t leech off of those around you

I think that's a toxic attitude. Picking up the phone for someone else every now and then is really not a big of a hassle. Obviously I don't know the whole situation, but in general I do think that one should be ready to do such minor favors for another human being without calling them a leech.

Vinnl2• 6 years ago

This is really hard to do. I don't live off the grid by any means - there's a million ways to contact me, e.g. text message, calling, Signal messages, emails, etc. However, I don't use Whatsapp in a country where the vast majority of people does.

I'm fine with missing things if people don't feel like using any of the methods I have to get in touch with me. However, instead of either not bothering or using one of the communication channels we have in common, people tend to ask my partner to relay messages to me. So short of starting to use Whatsapp (which I'd really rather not do, and which requires installing a different OS on my phone - and possibly get a data subscription as well), the burden is on my partner to either tell them to contact me directly, or to relay the messages.

Any good tips for others ways of dealing with this are very welcome.

neiman2• 6 years ago

His mom ended up calling my sister or our landline to check up on her son. It was annoying AF.

What you call "annoying AF" was reality for many many years, and yet people were not constantly annoyed..

ulfw• 6 years ago

Yea that's by definition not "off the grid" anyway.

It's like German getting out of nuclear power generation but then buying nuclear power from Czech and France, where power plans are literally at the German border.

janci• 6 years ago

Some time ago when mobile phones were very expensive one of my relatives carried SIM without phone.

Fnoord3• 6 years ago

He could've just used a SIP client (plus e.g. WLAN, which does not even have to be on 24/7), and being the one who initializes the call. If he does it on a sane time, then he'll reach contact.

gvjddbnvdrbv• 6 years ago

That's on his mother not him. Maybe he did this specifically to try to have some breathing room from his mother?

IGotThroughIt• 6 years ago

You don't seem too impressed by those that make the choice to live off the grid...

dzhiurgis• 6 years ago

We’ve recently got rid of roommates like that. They owned nothing and borrowed everything. Plus their ideology was that every corporation conspires to poison people. And they were heavy on drugs. And smelled pretty bad.

Sharing is great when you put in something material in, not just try to be bubbly person.

upofadown• 6 years ago

Strikes me as a feature. Who really wants to be judged as a person by what they own rather than who and what they are?

madeofpalk• 6 years ago

But it's not what they own, it's what they impose on others.

The implication here isn't that they're being judged for not having a phone (with a SIM card), and that they're constantly relying and leaching from others. That can be annoying, and people tend to not like annoying people?

lottin• 6 years ago

He will be judged for his actions - becoming a burden to other people by choice

suifbwish• 6 years ago

I was going to say.. you definitely don’t need much if others are paying the bill. Some people see friendship as an excuse to expect to use the resources of others.

justnotworthit• 6 years ago

And waay too many glib answers and dismissals. GPS? Just pull over and ask... while you're taking the wrong exit to the wrong freeway in the wrong direction at night. This isn't about avoiding human contact.

Need signal/whatsapp? Just get a disposable number... that everyone adds to their contact books but has to change every time you re-install because you cant get the old number back.

The world is outright hostile to not having a number. It's like not having an address. I lament this, but there aren't easy solutions to this hostility.

peterburkimsher3• 6 years ago

I live without 3G on my phone, though I still have a SIM card for receiving "emergency" calls. I haven't topped it up though, so I can't call out.

It's been wonderful to make me focus on face to face conversations with people, rather than checking notifications all the time. I ask them to add me on Facebook, or make a note of their email address. If I can get online, I use mbasic.facebook.com with no ads, which loads quickly on an old phone.

My phone wakes me up with an alarm, but I'm not flooded with depressing Apple News first thing in the morning.

On the bus, I read books (the Bible and others, Edward Snowden's autobiography last year, currently The Shockwave Rider). I also browse offline Wikipedia (personally Wiki2Touch, but I've heard good things about Kiwix). I use Galileo Offline Maps with MOBAC-scraped tiles, without turn by turn directions.

Battery life is significantly better without 3G, and makes the old iPhone 4S quite usable.

Google Voice is often allowed for 2FA, and I use that when I need to receive SMS (e.g. TransferWise).

I could go without a SIM card entirely, but for the rare occasions when I do need to receive a call (e.g. I agree a place and time to meet someone, and they're late), then I still keep it in my phone.

It worries me to read that the US immigration department are using anonymised cell tower histories to trace people, but I don't know if removing the SIM card would solve that.

pzumk2• 6 years ago

It worries me to read that the US immigration department are using anonymised cell tower histories to trace people,

It worries me to read you’re still using Facebook even though it looks like you value privacy. Why’s that? (Not trolling, serious question)

peterburkimsher3• 6 years ago

Keeping in touch with friends in other countries. Rarely, there's even targeted ads that I actually want (e.g. bands that are playing concerts nearby). I try to avoid the news feed, and usually just use messages and events. Unlike most other chat apps, Facebook has backwards compatibility for old phones. There's a limited sense of control: I choose when to update my location, employer info, Liked pages, etc. Yes, they know about me, but I also use it to analyse myself [1]. I have no expectation of privacy for the things I post, but I'm therefore more careful about what I post, which Lists I share content with, and what metadata is hidden in that content.

[1] https://github.com/peterburk/sortlikes

llampx• 6 years ago

I live without 3G on my phone
My phone wakes me up with an alarm, but I'm not flooded with depressing Apple News first thing in the morning.

So you turn off wi-fi before going to bed?

wtmt2• 6 years ago

Not GP, but I turn off WiFi completely (not the intermediate “disconnecting nearby WiFi until tomorrow”) so that I control when I’m connected and when I’m not.

peterburkimsher3• 6 years ago

No, I just disabled notifications for most apps, because I'm using iOS 6. Several apps have stopped working entirely (WhatsApp, WeChat, KakaoTalk), so I just use them through an Android emulator on my laptop.

paper-boat• 6 years ago

I've also tried going SIM-less for a few years. Wifi hotspots are frequently around you rarely find yourself in a situation needing a data plan.

But the main problem is 2FA many services force you to use now.

Going without a data plan is wonderful, but every now and then, having a couple minutes are SMS services is great.

kome2• 6 years ago

I lived SIM free basically all my adult life, but I had to buy a SIM last September, because a new European banking regulation that requires 2FA.

SMS 2FA is a joke tho.

Ayesh5• 6 years ago

SMS 2FA is a joke tho. Yes, everyone knows. But it's better than nothing.

keverets• 6 years ago

For the US and Canada, there is JMP.chat which can be used to 2FA over SMS without a SIM. Uses standard XMPP so can be used from a computer or phone while on WiFi.

There are other proprietary services which can do the same for no monetary cost (usually lots of advertising and tracking, though).

icebraining9• 6 years ago

Of course, that means you're giving "Denver Gingerich and others" full access and control over the number and channel used to receive unencrypted authentication tokens.

acd• 6 years ago

Being offline is good for your privacy and training concentration span.

torh• 6 years ago

Without a SIM card it would be a lot harder to do my taxes, access my online bank, check my insurance, etc., because the SIM card is used to veriy my identity using a solution called BankID. (https://www.bankid.no/en/company/) It's a lot easier then the alternative with OTP codes, especially since BankID is now supported by a lot of different sites and services. From government, banking, phone companies, etc.

pjc502• 6 years ago

How has Norway solved the "slamming" problem, where attackers ring the phone company and get a duplicate SIM?

kiloreven3• 6 years ago

The BanID SIM-application has to be installed over the air and activated through online banking. It's bound to one physical SIM, so an attacker would need to get into the online banking in the first place to reinstall the SIM app onto the new card. I believe the auth keys are stored on the SIM as part of this solution, and regenerated every time it's reactivated, invalidating the existing SIM.

kwhitefoot2• 6 years ago

The SIM will be sent to the registered address of the owner. So you will have to intercept the post as well. And the PIN will be sent in a separate envelope on a different day.

That plus the other things like storing the encrypted keys in the SIM card activated by logging in to a bank by some other means make it pretty secure.

Ayesh5• 6 years ago

Not sure about Norway, but in the Netherlands, you have to note down the PUK code. You can't get a replacement SIM card without PUK code. This is for prepaid though.

goblin892• 6 years ago

Isn’t BankID subject to the same old issues with cellular networks that make SMS 2FA insecure? Mobile provider support human factor, connection MITM’ing, etc. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16810266)

Edit: from sibling threads I can see that issuing a duplicate SIM card in Norway may require a very dedicated attacker, but mass-spoofing cell towers could still be an issue. I don’t know why do companies dislike non-SIM-associated OTP tokens so much…

tjoff• 6 years ago

Not at all. And the comment you link to is "just" social engineering. Tricking people into signing in someone else and then signing their transactions.

Akin to "hey I'm from paypal please give me your password so I can verify it is you". Or "I'm from Microsoft support, you have a virus please run this executable so that we can help you".

But it is a problem. And they explicitly target old and other people that (statistically) treat any computer stuff as black magic and are more likely to trust a stranger because they say they are calling from a bank/whatever.

kickling• 6 years ago

Is that the same as BankID in sweden? That is not 'connected' to the sim card, but to the device itself.

kwhitefoot2• 6 years ago

Really?

In Norway BankID is quite definitely connected to the SIM card.

TazeTSchnitzel2• 6 years ago

Norway's BankID and Sweden's BankID are different products by different companies that happen to have the same name.

Sweden did briefly have a SIM card-based version of its BankID, but it was quickly replaced with the smartphone app-based “Mobile BankID”.

galphanet• 6 years ago

In Switzerland we have MobileID which is basically the same thing as Norway's Bank If : using a sim card as a smart card.

ginko• 6 years ago

because the SIM card is used to veriy my identity using a solution called BankID.

That's BankID over mobile. You can also use a key fob like this[1] + a password to authenticate. I use it when traveling and using a prepaid SIM occasionally.

[1] https://bank.obos.no/globalassets/bilder-alternative-str/sig...

dmos62• 6 years ago

I used a dumb phone until recently. It was only possible, because my partner's phone could fulfil both of our "smart" needs. It's not easy to get around that. If there's just 1 service that requires a smartphone that you can't do without, you have to get one.

nicky04• 6 years ago

An iPod touch or iPad/Tablet will also suffice to access most "app only" services.

Mike_Andreuzza• 6 years ago

I had been living without a sim card for almost 2 years, and just use wifi. Loved it. No I have to because I am starting my own company and have no choice, otherwise I would have removed tphone completely.

But I will do it

Kipters• 6 years ago

For maps: Here Wego (new name for HERE Maps) can work completely offline once you download the necessary maps (even directions).

It's been a lifesaver in the pre-EU-roaming era

joshlk• 6 years ago

What the point? It’s so much hassle for no reason. If you want to be not dependent on something then don’t use a smart phone. But having a smart phone without a SIM seems the worse of both worlds.

icebraining9• 6 years ago

Why? Smartphones are just pocket-sized computers. Does a computer really need a cellular modem to be useful?

hilbert426• 6 years ago

A good point that I've not made in my post above. When people learn that I've no SIM card in my smartphones they inevitably remark why bother having one. The fact is smartphones are excellent computers and I use them as such all the time in applications where cellular modems aren't necessary.

ppafin• 6 years ago

Mobile without cellular and therefore without SIM: https://github.com/xxlsec/proteusdevice/wiki

nmstoker• 6 years ago

One major advantage is the impact on phone battery life - partly because various services aren't repeatedly pinging over the mobile network (especially in "notspots"), WiFi tends not to burn through battery. And partly because it tends to change your behaviour to do more focused things (the phone isn't constantly trying to distract you as it often can't, so you don't then waste time and power on these distractions).

I don't think I'd abandoned a SIM card in the near future but having used my old phone without the SIM as an alternate for my new phone on a few occasions, the old phone battery went from being awful to lasting way longer than my brand new phone of comparable specs.

Ayesh5• 6 years ago

You can always use the phone on flight mode (to turn off radio), and selectively turn on GPS, WiFi, Bluetooth, etc).

RupertEisenhart• 6 years ago

Flight mode is the only way of living

ehnto• 6 years ago

I got a smart watch after being staunchly anti-smartwatch, because I can now leave my phone at home. It was a compromise that allowed me to stay connected via phone while not having a distraction-factory in my pocket. I don't have anything but the phone app and weather on there, and I have a whitelist so only friends and family can contact me. I delay text messages 'til I get home if I can, and I get maybe 2 phone calls a week.

My biggest issue with the phone was it could distract me with a notification, and I could dive into it for too long after dealing with the notification. That doesn't happen on the watch because frankly, they can't do all that much and they are a pain in the ass to use for anything more than a quick sentence.

Could I just "be a better person" and be disciplined with my phone? Totally. But I've tried numerous times, so this is my method and it's been working well.

ip26• 6 years ago

Cellular really isn't all that power hungry, the problem is really data period, i.e. your phone being awake at all. If you get a 500MB plan, set everything unimportant to restrict background data, and turn off WiFi your phone can last for days.

Shalle1352• 6 years ago

He mention the risk of having stuff injected in the header while being connected to an isp. But doesn’t care about public hotspots? Personally I would rather trust a couple ISP’s than random hotspots.

madamelic• 6 years ago

Nor the fact that they recommend using free services that monetize through ads, especially call and text providers.

Any free service should ring major, major alarms for any one advocating for privacy.

icebraining9• 6 years ago

On the other hand, any paid service must be tracking you, at least for billing purposes, whereas you might be able to reduce the tracking that free services do.

dathinab• 6 years ago

My First reaction was that it sounds awesome and I want to try it for a view month.

Then I realized that most German delivery services require a phone number and email address (like when you order a new shelf or phone or computer or ...).

Then I realized that the messenger I use to communicate with my family bases identity on the phone number (not my choice, but nothing I can easily change).

Then I realize that my main relevant usage is to get live information about public transport.

Well I guess I'm not quite ready for it yet maybe when I managed to convince everyone to switch to a non phone number based messenger.

Erlich_Bachman• 6 years ago

Then I realized that the messenger I use to communicate with my family bases identity on the phone number

It is only required upon registration or a change of a phone. Most messengers don't require (nor really have a way of figuring out) whether you have the same simcard in the phone, or whether you have a simcard in it at all.

icebraining9• 6 years ago

In fact, I used to use Whatsapp on a WiFi-only tablet. The Simcard was on a featurephone that didn't have any support for installing apps.

mrweasel• 6 years ago

Denmark is pretty similar to Germany, in that a ton of services require you to have a phone number. Technically there’s rarely a reason for you to give out your number, and for stuff I don’t care about I’ll enter the number of a loan company or the number of a telcos support.

Still, I actually somewhat concerned that you’re basically not allowed to not have a phone. No one will actually call you anymore, but they do want your phone number.

I can’t think of a single service that would require you to have a phone, it’s just some weak attempt at “authenticating” you, via someone else.

bergie• 6 years ago

most German delivery services require a phone number and email address

As somebody who lived years in Germany without having the ability to make or receive calls (there was a SIM with a number, but connected to a data-only tablet)... Most delivery companies lack proper input validation, so you can either enter "n/a" or 00000000000 to the phone field. Never had issues with deliveries because of this

therealmarv• 6 years ago

and how not to be independent. The essence is to be sometimes/often dependent on other people.

whorleater• 6 years ago

This is modern minimalism to its peak: getting rid of your stuff by relying on others

luckylion• 6 years ago

Wasn't that modern minimalism from the get-go?

teddyh• 6 years ago

It has been so ever since Thoreau lived at Walden Pond and waxed poetically of self-reliance and living alone, but had his mother take care of washing his clothes.

eeZah7Ux• 6 years ago

Nobody is pointing at the elephant in the room:

GSM, WiFi, TCP/IP, SIM cards, debit cards could provide strong privacy for everybody by default.

Requiring random, temporary, untracked addresses by law is possible and achievable.

Yet, society accepts corporate surveillance for the masses and privacy for the powerful and wealthy.

markus_zhang• 6 years ago

Living without SIM Card is actually quite doable (I haven't made phone calls for a while and non of previous ones was mandatory), and you can always get a number using IP Phone or something else.

Living without Internet, on the other hand...

MarkusWandel• 6 years ago

A reasonable compromise is to just have a SIM card with a basic prepaid phone (and SMS) plan but no data. Lots of people I know do that. Phone is online at home, in the workplace, at restaurants etc, and you can communicate.

dangus3• 6 years ago

To me, the price paid to a cellular provider is actually preferable to relying on other people's WiFi networks.

Using someone else's WiFi isn't a security advantage, it's the opposite. You're bumming off of someone's network and not even paying them - so who knows what their motivations might be. Who knows if the network that the SSID claims to be is actually that network.

Is Starbucks Free WiFi actually run by Starbucks or is it a malicious router placed in the same vicinity? I don't actually know until I connect.

I would suggest the alternative of using a pay-as-you-go plan on a SIM card, something that doesn't cost a lot with low usage. If you want to be more disconnected you can simply turn on airplane mode. In almost any country in the world you can pay less than $10/month to maintain a phone line and SIM card.

sandworm101• 6 years ago

> Is Starbucks Free WiFi actually run by Starbucks or is it a malicious router placed in the same vicinity?

Both. The Starbuck Free WiFi is also a malicious router. All routers should be seen as malicious. That threat model is why we have secure websites. That's why VPNs are always a good idea, or Tor if you are really worried. But even then, those routers too must be deemed untrustworthy. At no point should one ever trust middlemen, be them routers or used car salesmen.

scarface74• 6 years ago

Are there any sites of any importance that don’t use https? What’s the threat model?

Nextgrid4• 6 years ago

The entire Internet is based on routers aka middlemen. Even your VPN provider is a middleman.

If I had to choose, I'd trust a known compromised access point that doesn't know my identity over Yet Another VPN provider to whom I paid money and gave valid billing details.

Both are shady, at least the first only gets small bits of traffic that happen to be unencrypted here and there and doesn't have my identity and can only snoop when I'm at the location of the AP, the other one has my valid identity and billing details, e-mail address and happens to snoop on me all the time I have the VPN on regardless of my physical location.

Nextgrid4• 6 years ago

Exactly this.

The only reason public Wi-Fi is a thing in this day and age is marketing & advertising tracking. Venues don't deploy it out of the goodness of their hearts, they do so because the data they collect from it exceeds the cost of deploying and operating it.

Another issue is that most public Wi-Fi is provided by a few companies offering it "as a service" to the venue so these companies can track you across different venues by your MAC address.

Trading off mobile data for public Wi-Fi for "privacy" is stupid and counter-productive. You're trading off a company that might occasionally be nasty (depends on the region - carriers selling granular location data like in the US wouldn't fly in Europe for example) to companies whose entire businesses is to be nasty.

vhvjkyhkogvv• 6 years ago

The reason cafes offer wifi is that otherwise people would stop coming.

dntbnmpls• 6 years ago

Is Starbucks Free WiFi actually run by Starbucks or is it a malicious router placed in the same vicinity?

Isn't Starbucks "Free" WiFi a joint venture between Starbucks and Google where you have to agree to them collecting your browsing data in order to use their "free" service?

dana321• 6 years ago

I first thought this might be about eSIM; the electronic SIM that doesn't require a physical SIM card.

smoovb2• 6 years ago

Your phone sees this as normal SIM and connects to cell towers in the same way, so not sure what this achieves?

Causality1• 6 years ago

The feeling of moving around without your whereabouts being constantly beamed into a database can feel quite liberating.

Hate to break it to you buddy but you're still being tracked and your database updates every time you connect to wifi. Frankly you're being tracked much more precisely than I am with my GPS and wifi turned off.

NotSammyHagar6• 6 years ago

Not true if your phone randomizes your mac address. Comes automatically on my phone. The next level is services on your phone logging in an saying "hey this is fred", you have to block that. Which thing were you referring to?

chewz7• 6 years ago

I envy the OP. Unfortunately since September 2019 living without SIM card became (practically) illegal in EU.

most online payments above €30 to go through an extra level of verification such as entering a code received via a text message. [2]

Most banks unwisely chosen SMS as Strong Customer Authentication providing little choice to customers.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/payment-services-psd-2-directi...

[2] https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/psd2

dangus3• 6 years ago

Unless you summarize the law we don't know what you mean by "practically illegal."

When you say "practically illegal" I can only assume you mean "not illegal."

chewz7• 6 years ago

I have edited my answer.

Most institutions I know have chosen SMS for Strong Customer Authentication which means sooner or later you in practical life will need your personal SIM card (banking, doctor visit, e-prescription, e-government etc.). Unless you chose to live off the grid for real.

matthewheath• 6 years ago

They're referring to the Revised Directive on Payment Services ("PSD2") passed by the European Union which imposes a requirement to use "Strong Customer Authentication" for certain financial transactions (online or contactless) to reduce fraud, among other things.

When you make a payment over a certain size, you're required to verify that it's you making the payment. It's 2FA for payments essentially, you enter the code sent by SMS or you tap the approval button in your banking app, or enter your PIN again for contactless transactions.

It seems a lot of payment institutions have allegedly implemented SMS verification for these transactions. I bank with Monzo (https://monzo.com) which offers an approval notification in their app.

Unless you switch to a "challenger" bank like Monzo, you're going to be getting SMS to verify transactions (otherwise the transaction won't go through) and while I consider it hyperbole to mark this as "practically illegal", it does make things rather difficult for those with no phone or SIM card.

thefounder5• 6 years ago

Don't blame the EU just yet.

1. EU didn't force the banks to use SMS

2. EU is aware of the privacy/security issue of SMS and is planning to actually ban using SMS otp as a form of strong auth

https://www.zdnet.com/article/german-banks-are-moving-away-f...

chewz7• 6 years ago

I wasn't blaming EU (I am not in a habit of bashing EU) and I am not saying this is completely bad law. I am just observing the reality on the ground.

tracnar• 6 years ago

Most banks use their own card reader which you can use to authorize/sign a payment, I never had to use SMS for this.

makruiten• 6 years ago

And some banks (ING, bunq, but also others) don’t require anything else than just the mobile app, using either a pincode or biometric validation through your mobile OS. That’s way more practical, because you don’t need to have a reader in your pocket in order to do payments.

detaro2• 6 years ago

Where are you? Here in Germany, most banks do not require SMS (many have phased out SMS entirely).

chewz7• 6 years ago

In Poland most banks I use (Citibank, Santander, Millenium and others) require confirming logging into account via SMS at least once in two weeks. Some require confirmation via mobile app. (That wasn't obligatory before)

Its rather that banks have phased out other methods like tokens as too expensive and troublesome.

https://www.money.pl/banki/santander-pko-bp-mbank-czy-pekao-...

https://www.spidersweb.pl/2019/09/jak-zalogowac-sie-do-banku...

Joeri• 6 years ago

Banks in the US and EU are required to have the identity on file for all bank accounts (ostensibly to combat terrorism), so sharing your phone number with them shouldn’t change the level of privacy. If it is cost people are worried about they can get a prepaid card and never use it except to receive sms. That’s effectively free.

Combined with the push to get rid of anonymous accounts and phone numbers there has also been a push to get rid of cash. I expect to see a time in my lifetime where a country will fully do away with all anonymous forms of payment, effectively making it impossible to be anonymous.

lotsofpulp2• 6 years ago

Since the inevitable conclusion is impossibility of being anonymous, I think we should push to ensure full transparency for all. Otherwise, it ends badly for those not in power.

jowsie• 6 years ago

I'm not sure how common it is, but in the UK I've known people who have been forced to use their 'free' SIM or risk having the number revoked and the SIM disabled.

rhn_mk1• 6 years ago

sharing your phone number with them shouldn’t change the level of privacy

It's not sharing that is lowering the privacy level, it's having to disclose all the information to the mobile operator, in addition to the hassle of needing an additional contract with a third, unrelated party.

mnm12• 6 years ago

I expect to see a time in my lifetime where a country will fully do away with all anonymous forms of payment, effectively making it impossible to be anonymous.

That would mean either the elimination of poverty or a country that so hates its poor, it's willing to remove them from the economy altogether. I highly doubt that will happen, even in the US, where the poor are despised and hated by almost everyone. But then again, you never know.

hilbert426• 6 years ago

Let's be clear about this. Sorry I didn't make myself clearer in my post that I'd never entertain the idea of doing internet banking from a smartphone or any online PC or other facility (except an auto-teller using my card).

In fact, the last internet banking transaction I would have made would have been at least 10 years ago!

fulafel2• 6 years ago

Be careful what you wish for. Probably if banks are forbidden from using SMS they'll force you to use a mobile app on your Google mobile implant. (And the app will refuse to run if you have root on the phone, facilitated by strong DRM mechanisms)

Freak_NL4• 6 years ago

All but one Dutch bank (newcomer Bunq) offer authentication methods that do not rely on owning a smartphone. Most often this takes the form of a complimentary card reader that uses your debit card as a hardware private key to generate OTP codes.

Most banks do try very hard to push you to use their Android or IOS app though. I agree that it is becoming increasingly hard to exist without either an Android or IOS smartphone.

The Dutch government is mandating the use of a stronger level of authentication to access your personal medical data. Currently, the only system that meets this standard is the government Android or IOS app. An alternative is being considered that allows people to use an NFC-reader on any modern computing platform with a suitable driver's licence or ID-card, but this won't be available to every citizen until 2029 due to the renewal cycle of these government issued cards. But even then I can't escape a certain sense of complacency with the government branch developing these techniques; they really seem to want everyone to either get an Android or IOS smartphone, or authorize a relative or friend to manage your digital affairs on your behalf. This latter option is of course geared towards the elderly and the digitally encumbered.

It was possible to participate digitally as citizen in the age of the personal computer even if you didn't get Windows or Mac OS X, but in the smartphone era this freedom does not seem to exist for much longer.

huseyinkeles2• 6 years ago

ABN Amro (and I think many others as well) send you an e-identifier device and allows you to make online iDeal payments with those devices.

zimbatm• 6 years ago

One thing I did is to use Twillio to get a mobile phone number (5.-/mo) and forward the SMS to email or whatever. It works pretty well and was easy to setup.

One big advantage is that number-porting attacks are much harder to pull-off with them as they have better security than most phone companies.

One downside is that the SMS must come from the same country. It's a weird limitation of their platform.

microtheo• 6 years ago

I live in Germany, and while I need a smartphone to get the code for my online banking access, it doesn’t require a SIM card or a phone number.

kome2• 6 years ago

that's not much better tho.

t0astbread• 6 years ago

Most banks in Austria mandate their own proprietary push-TAN apps and don't support SMS as a second factor. Depending on your POV this could be better or worse.

overgard• 6 years ago

If it's for privacy, wouldn't a burner phone make more sense?

Otherwise leaching off everyone around you to save a bit of money... seems like it would get old pretty quickly

smoovb2• 6 years ago

The 2 device solution seems best. One device for connectivity and essentials, the other device for personal stuff.

Prepaid sims are so cheap, can't see how this is about saving money.

reportgunner2• 6 years ago

I have been using this for the past two years and I'm very happy.

One dumbphone with 5-7 days battery life that does only SMS and Voice calls.

One smartphone that I use for browsing, google authenticator, twitter and some apps and occasionally as a hotspot.

Usually the battery dies in either of those, not in both at the same time. This means that when my phone dies I'm left with either only SMS and Voice or only Internet.

Both phones have dual SIM support so I can keep swapping the prepaid SIMs when needed.

grecy• 6 years ago

Five years ago I quit my Software Engineering job, and I got rid of my dumb phone. I've not had a SIM since. My sister gave me her ~4 year old HTC One phone, which I take out and power on about once a month to use as an alarm or use google authentication or some such.

I'm a person who is a little addicted to the internet, so for me I think of it like an alcoholic not walking into bars - I'd be that guy constantly reaching for my phone in social situations, so it's simply better if I avoid the temptation and just don't have one.

A few thoughts:

- Yes, I occasionally ask humans for directions. It's actually kind of novel and always starts a conversation.

- I had to talk to my bank for an hour to let me use email as my verification option. Works fine now.

- I have wifi at home, so I have tons of contact with my family using my laptop and video chat, messenger, etc. I spend more than enough time online.

- I have a large social media presence, but it never 'bothers' me. I do it for 15 minutes a day on my laptop, then I put it away and I never get a single notification during the day.

- I thoroughly enjoy sitting in a bar or other social setting and looking around the table to see who wants to make eye contact and talk vs. who is staring at their phone. Many times I'm the only person at a large table not using a phone.

- Sometimes I miss out on social stuff because friends are organizing on whatsapp or even messenger an I don't open my laptop so I don't see it. I honestly think this wouldn't change if I had a phone, because I'd turn off notifications and only look at it a few times a day.

- I've saved a lot of money over the years

- It certainly is inconvenient at times, and I'm currently flirting with the idea of getting a SIM for the old HTC so I can take creit card payments. So be it. I probably won't install any apps.

saint_angels• 6 years ago

What if mobile operator can give you a fixed mobile number, and periodically changing ones, that forward SMS/calls to fixed one? Give fixed number to relatives, variable to fb. Would you pay for this service?

NotSammyHagar6• 6 years ago

Probably. But the whole thing is, I don't want every service to use my mobile number to track me as I register for my grocery card frequent customer (10 cents of lettuce), I want that to be anonymous. Instead it's not, they must be centralizing that. I want something like a virtual sms provider on my phone that (1) protects my privacy (ha), (2) hands out virtual sms numbers for services. It knows that at say costco I'm sms number 1234, and at safeway I'm sms number 456. I use the app on my phone to manage this. Another user on this service gets a different number at safeway than I do (but it's unique for them). Because there aren't an infinite number of these, the numbers the service has get randomly shared among the users. So someone else would eventually get 456 for a service that use, but it's not "me".

hilbert426• 6 years ago

My smartphones NEVER have SIM cards in them—as I'm not that stupid so as to become just another easy target of surveillance capitalism! Instead, they connect by Wi-Fi to external portable routers that do have SIMs installed in them. As such, these phones can connect to the internet but cannot be used be used to make telephone calls. Thus, there cannot be any cross-reference between my actual telephone number and my internet activity.

In addition, my smartphones use LineageOS without any Google Apps (GApps) installed and their browsers always have JavaScript disabled. Right, I have absolutely no need for social media, Facebook etc, and I never use any of Google's services such as Gmail—except perhaps search via an anonymous metasearch engines such as DuckDuckGo.

So how do I actually communicate? I use a separate dumb phone that has no internet access.

Oh, BTW, I never order stuff online via a smartphone, nor do I use smartphones for email.

So, am I a Luddite? Definitely not, I've always been a high tech worker, I was an early adopter of mobile phone technology, and I had one of Motorola's "bricks" the moment they came on the market decades ago. Moreover, if you saw the complex configurations of my smartphones and the ways they have been rooted (with the latest Magisk super-user software, LineageOS and firewall configurations to stop app software phoning home) then you'd realize I'm more a mobile communications platform than a person with a smartphone).

You may well ask why do I go to such lengths. It's principle really: as I see it, when I bought my first Motorola "brick" the telephone service was essentially anonymous with the option of users being listed in the telephone directory. Since then governments have deregulated and sold out our phone systems to Big Tech without any of us users ever having had a say in the matter—the damn hide of them! Nowadays, not only has Big Tech (Google, Facebook, Microsoft etc.) usurped our internet but they've also fucked our phone networks by actually integrating their corporations' businesses into our telephone systems—and they've essentially done so without anyone's permission.

jhabdas8• 6 years ago

Best comment in the thread. Thanks for keeping it real, chief.

hilbert426• 6 years ago

Thank you Sir.

guidance7• 6 years ago

DuckDuckGo isn't an anonymous search engine. It's owned by the same people who own Google. And Microsoft. And Intel. And Facebook. etc....etc.

Likewise, what firmware is running on that phone's baseband chip?

Your plans aren't foolproof, but you're on the right path.

hilbert426• 6 years ago

It's not a matter of being completely anonymous, if that concerned me then I'd never use the internet. After all, ISPs know who I am and where I'm located so anonymity isn't the issue.

What is at issue is the wholesale collection of our data by Big Tech without our full permission and proper disclosure, and that includes the end uses to which it is put and who has possession of it. The other key issue is the atrocious way governments have abrogated their responsibilities in these matters.

I agree with you that firmware on the phone's baseband chips cannot be trusted (nor any other binary blob)—nor can Intel's secretive and all-pervasive AMT on its PC/CPU chips for that matter. (In my opinion, surveillance via embedded firmware together with what actually goes on in firmware and cloaked from view by the compilation process is serious matter that all too few bother to consider important—remember the VW emissions affair and you'll get my gist.)

That said, I accept that some 'spurious' data does escape through my systems—even LineageOS has Google addresses in its kernel—but that's not the point which is essentially that I am effectively obfuscating and disrupting the collection of my data to the point where what's left is essentially worthless to others. A check of the data and IP addresses that pass through my routers shows that my efforts have made an enormous difference (in effect, I stop well in excess of 99% of unwanted traffic by using a combination of quite different technologies). Combine this with the fact that I use multiple different browsers which also report randomized browser user agent IDs to reduce browser fingerprinting, and it turns out what I've done is quite effective. For instance—except for when I'm testing, etc.—I never see ads on my mobiles or desktop PCs and those that I've accidentally seen have never been target at me as a direct consequence of my circumstances or interests.

However, the bigger issue for all of us is that all-encompassing surveillance, whether it's by the State and or Big Tech, reduces both our freedoms and autonomy to act as humans. That's why we must resist it.

kaiwen1• 6 years ago

I've been without a SIM for over a year. Here are a few more tips:

- Google Voice gives you a free number that works anywhere and can be used for texting and 2FA. (There are some exceptions.)

- Calling with Google Hangouts is free to some countries, cheap in others, and can be configured to show your Google Voice number as the caller. Unfortunately, the call quality cans be pretty bad, definitely worse than, say, Skype.

- Google Maps offline works great on iPhone.

It feels liberating to have no SIM. I'm not always reachable, and that's a good thing. I'm not always connected to the internet, also a good thing. I usually near urban or suburban areas, so free WiFi is everywhere. When I want to connect, I connect. Easy.

Along with living without SIMs, my family also has a policy of No Screen Day (NSD) once a week. We all put our phones, computers, etc in closet at 11pm and don't touch them until 6am two days later. No TV, no going to movies theaters, no screens of any kind. We love our NSDs. They cause us to do different kinds of things, sometimes just read books. It usually the best day of the week.

gormandizer• 6 years ago

I'm inclined to argue that ditching a SIM card in favor of Google voice is simply trading one form of "Surveillance Capitalism" for another.

jhabdas8• 6 years ago

The misperception I feel many of us have - myself included - is basic privacy means nondisclosure. I don't personally trust Google, nor do I have a Google account. But if I were to have a Google account I'd rather share my data - whatever it was I chose to share, which should always be opt-in - with Google's nemesis (Huawei?) and let let them pay us to fight over it.

driverdan• 6 years ago

The Google Voice app requires confirming your phone number in order to make or receive calls. You can use it for SMS and incoming voicemail but not calls.

If all you need is a number to text people there are other alternatives that don't harvest data like Google.

spicyramen• 6 years ago

Good luck if you have young kids and a wife

rook24• 6 years ago

What about https://crypton.sh? I saw they do SIM cards (also with encrypted storage), servers in Iceland and privacy stuff.

jhabdas8• 6 years ago

"CRYPTOCURRENCIES SUPPORTED", says the page. I cannot wait to try this.

cproctor2• 6 years ago

Getting rid of my SIM card is attractive to me for financial and political reasons, but it would not be compatible with my loved ones' expectations that I be reachable in an emergency. Here's a compromise I have been thinking about; I wonder if anyone has experience making it work (or knows why it won't) on an unlocked iPhone 6:

    - Buy a pay-as-you-go SIM card with support for SMS and data, but no voice, for when I'm not on WIFI. 
    - When I am on WIFI, use VOIP for calling, and SMS and data as usual.

Possible challenges/questions I need to research more:

    - Will iPhone permit a SIM card without voice?
    - Can I receive SMS via WIFI when connected and via the burner SIM otherwise?
    - What service should I use for VOIP when connected, and for accepting voicemails when not connected?
    - I know Apple overlays its iMessages over SMS (which causes terrible headaches when someone switches from iPhone to Android, and no longer receives iMessages). How should I manage this?

cproctor2• 6 years ago

It looks like I can get most of this through Twilio if I'm willing to do some programming. One issue will be that Twilio is blocked from some 2-factor-authentication systems.

peterwwillis• 6 years ago

Oof. I honestly don't know which is less secure: SMS or e-mail confirmation. Probably the former, but the latter is probably easy to downgrade into plaintext, and can/does does go through random middle boxes. You can add mitigations all over the client but I'm not aware of any requirement for strong authn+z in the protocol.

As a second factor, SMS is better, unless that 2FA e-mail is allowed to be different from your primary e-mail, and you only every sign into it from your phone.

T_ADD• 6 years ago

Can only wish i could do that but working for a local telco i have to have a "live" SIM all the time. Because i do callouts 24/7

reportgunner2• 6 years ago

Finally, relax. The world isn't going to end if you don't respond to every message instantly. And your friends and family will come to know you weren't actually trying to ignore them when you didn't respond right away.

So much this. Applies to IMs as well.

dktalks• 6 years ago

I would say that this does not work in third world countries and the author also mentions this subtly by saying.

>If you're in Southeast Asia and in need a taxi service, you can ask someone to hail you a Grab. I've done this numerous times in Kuala Lumpur by kindly asking Coffee shop baristas. The feeling of moving around without your whereabouts being constantly beamed into a database can be quite liberating.

Imagine asking strangers to book you a cab in a country you cannot speak the language of.

While these countries and all first world countries have the ability to hail cabs for instance, asking strangers is basically not the way anyone goes because they don't have a sim card. For example, I do use a data-only SIM in a country I am visiting right now from Google Fi just to do basic things like ordering an Uber, checking bus timings etc.

However, I cannot without a local number 1. Order Food Online 2. Get Any services which require mobile number valid in the country for any services

I am used to doing all this because I have a phone number in my country, but can't do this in another country, because logistics involve delays and they have to be communicated and a local number is the best way to do it. Without wide-spread messaging only services which work out of the box for every app there is no way any establishment can contact you.

Everything is a step in the right direction, for example, people would call on WhatsApp/Facebook Messenger etc, but you don't expect micro-economy people in third world countries to have the skills to do that, they will want a phone number to do it.

runesor• 6 years ago

In Norway (and rest of the world for all i know) banks offer ID auth which is linked to your SIM for online banking. Are there any similar service available without SIM?

thorwasdfasdf• 6 years ago

I have plan that only costs me 8$ a month. I get 150 min, 150 text messages and no Data. it's USmobile, they're awesome. i have no affiliation with them other than being a customer.

jhabdas8• 6 years ago

Be the burden you wish to see in the world. https://getsession.org/

Living without a SIM card

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