The Anti-College Is on the Rise

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/08/opinion/sunday/college-anti-college-mainstream-universities.html

by mitchbob • 7 years ago

244 312 7 years ago

Say what you want, but a college degree is still necessary for high paying jobs.

jdsully3• 7 years ago

Yes, but the dirty secret is the earning potential of a college student is bimodal - yet people often use averages to discuss the benefits of a college degree. The $30,000 in additional earnings figure is propped up heavily by those making six+ figure salaries. Those who just barely scraped by do not earn more on average than those who only went to high school.

If you have the aptitude college will absolutely help. But for those who do not pushing them into college is just saddling them with debt for little benefit.

jimhefferon• 7 years ago

Some of the people without six figure salaries were interested in a subject that just simply did not pay at a high rate. They, or some of them anyway, may be glad they learned about the subject. (Of course, we are talking about lots of people so many may not be glad about what they did.)

My point is just that there are payoffs other than monetary ones. Nothing wrong with monetary, but nothing wrong with the others if that drives you.

jchw2• 7 years ago

No it isn't? It is necessary for some high paying careers, like working in medicine. But, I am certainly a software developer, for a very large company, pretty happy with my paycheck, and I have no degree. Nobody even ever asked me about it.

Whether or not it helps is another story, I am not claiming a degree is literally useless. I am however a little rubbed the wrong way by claims that you need a degree to ever have a job that pays good, that seems false.

snarfy• 7 years ago

Not having a degree in CS certainly limits how far up the ladder you can go. For most jobs at FAANG companies the #1 requirement is a degree. You can be the highest level senior developer at a company but you'll never make director or vp without a degree.

Avshalom• 7 years ago

I mean it's now necessary to be a manager at Target, as in hard requirement.

Ever since the recession flooded the market with laid off grads.

walshemj2• 7 years ago

That might have been more true when I started work xx years ago but I doubt that FANGs employ many direct entrants (your first job) without degrees.

And in many EU countries its effectively a hard NO

esoterica5• 7 years ago

At the best paying FAANG-type firms, the vast majority of developers have a degree. The employees there that don't have a degree typically had to spend a large part of their career working at crappier shops building their resume before becoming employable at a more desirable company, whereas the college graduates could get the cushy jobs right out of school.

plandis2• 7 years ago

Being the exception to the rule doesn’t mean it’s common or the best way into a particular field though.

finder832• 7 years ago

Maybe jobs that require college degrees pay higher on average, but it's just not true that for a high paying job you need a college degree. I was making over 100k before I finished my bachelor's doing computer programming. I've known people who own plumbing, welding, or electrical businesses that have a license that are millionaires that don't have college degrees. Maybe those aren't "jobs", but the highest paying jobs often don't follow the beaten path.

povertyworld3• 7 years ago

If that's the case why not do a degree you actually enjoy instead of a vocational degree? If you're a millionaire plumber, then paying tuition for an art history degree or whatever should be easy.

throwaway4133• 7 years ago

Maybe jobs that require college degrees pay higher on average, but it's just not true that for a high paying job you need a college degree.

Great distinction to point out and I agree.

itsaidpens• 7 years ago

Wrong. I make over 200,000 with zero college degree. Professional marketer - including SurveyMonkey in my CV.

throwaway4133• 7 years ago

Anecdata - $400k/yr, no college degree, no high school diploma, 5 years in the industry. Software engineer, self-taught, job-hopped early on.

gamechangr• 7 years ago

$400k/yr...what's the base/bonus/stock breakdown (seeing your in a throwaway)

nilsocket• 7 years ago

I was selected in campus placements.

I didn't yet complete my Under Graduate course, because I failed in 3 subjects.

I'm being paid more than my colleagues who completed the course from same college.

pmoriarty• 7 years ago

It's long past time for the wealthiest country in the world to make education free.

cyrksoft2• 7 years ago

Free? Who pays?

ykevinator• 7 years ago

Consumers?

wffurr• 7 years ago

The US federal government already makes free college available, you just have to serve in the military first.

We could eliminate that requirement by buying one or two fewer aircraft carriers or stealth bombers. Seems like a fair trade to me.

EliRivers3• 7 years ago

Done right, educating people should lead to them being more productive and producing a richer society. Done right, it's an investment that produces more wealth than it costs.

Somewhere there's a point where it costs more than it produces, dependent on how much time the person will spend being a more-educated person before they die, and I expect also dependent on the precise education being imparted, but I'd be surprised if that line was where the free education cut-off currently is.

asdff4• 7 years ago

Eliminate federal pell/other grants and roll the funds into in state tuition reimbursement for everyone.

Sniffnoy• 7 years ago

https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/against-tulip-subsidie...

thatoneuser4• 7 years ago

God no. We subsidized the shit out of college last century. On average it's not any better (the tech it uses is, but the university systems themselves are stagnant), yet it's much much more costly. Making it free would only continue this trend.

vangelis• 7 years ago

State funding for colleges has been continuous going down though.

jccalhoun• 7 years ago

I'm an academic so I'm biased. Administration is out of control but I think there would be some real benefits to free or drastically cheaper college education in the USA. There are studies that have shown that the more educated you are the less likely you are to commit crime (of course there is the old correlation vs causation question) and other issues so it would benefit society to offer cheaper education.

F-0X• 7 years ago

Why specifically Qatar?

lkbm3• 7 years ago

Seems like right now, the benefit of the education we're providing is waning. Making it free will deal with the student loan crisis, but won't make the education worth more.

Seems like, in terms of income/job prospects, you're better off studying to be an electrician or plumber (which is relatively cheap) than getting a BA in liberal arts or the humanities (which is relatively expensive). If this is the case, solution definitely isn't to encourage more people to do the latter.

anonymous513311• 7 years ago

College will already be made free in due time but it won't be from a government funded university. It will simply be from a private organization making the courses on their own and putting them online for free. People won't believe this but the technology already exists for it to occur. Most of college is simply organized textbook reading, with lectures, homework, exams etc. All of which can be digitized and delivered over the internet. Homework and exams can be digitally graded. Final exams can be proctored at a testing center like prometric. This system will deliver essentially the same results as a traditional university.

nknealk• 7 years ago

I'm currently pursuing an MBA. There's a huge body of research that shows raw cognitive ability is the strongest predictor of a high performance hire.

That is sometimes, but not always, correlated with educational attainment.

Source eg https://hbr.org/2017/10/what-science-says-about-identifying-...

danieltillett2• 7 years ago

Pity you can't just test for this and hire [1].

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.

lordnacho• 7 years ago

How many people in the US have come across the Open University? They do distance learning courses in a range of subjects, and has a reputation built over the last 50 years. Costs money but nothing like a private US degree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_University

It's actually the largest university in the UK, and has thousands of overseas students.

sdinsn• 7 years ago

Costs money but nothing like a private US degree.

I mean, public US degrees also cost nothing like a private US degree

synchronizing• 7 years ago

Depends on whether the student is an out-of-state or in-state student.

anonymous513311• 7 years ago

US companies don't view foreign degrees that positively unfortunately.

nimbius• 7 years ago

Disclosure: I'm an automotive diesel mechanic by trade, and chose the anti college 15 years ago.

Trade school cannot continue to be a four letter word in american households. HVAC, plumbers, machinists, welders and electricians are all facing massive shortages and offer a skilled, well paying job with benefits. These are all 1-2 year with an apprenticeship and the opportunity to build something you can be proud of.

nkozyra• 7 years ago

I think the tide started to turn on this a while ago, honestly. I remember my dad telling me how much money good machinists, plumbers, electricians made and how there's always jobs available.

He pushed heavily for University, but I started getting programming jobs in high school and realized quickly the truth of supply and demand. There will always be demand and need for these types of jobs and they are not low skill at all.

Since then I've heard a lot of people marveling at the need and value of trade jobs.

If I had to quibble at the direction, it would be at the risk that specialization carries. My grandfather was a chiropractor but in later years found a more lucrative career as a copier repairman. This job was highly desired and well paid but for numerous reasons became less so in the 80s and 90s. What happens when you have devoted your career to a specialization and then it disappears or radically transforms?

notduncansmith• 7 years ago

It seems like we could prevent this by making retraining and respecialization a more normal part of education and career. What intrinsic purpose is there to doing one job for your whole life? If you can learn copier repair, you can probably learn some other useful engineering/repair trades.

HeWhoLurksLate3• 7 years ago

This is why I feel like hyper-specialization in universities should be limited to masters or doctorate degrees- if the market for airplanes goes poof, then a "I can design ailerons" type of degree is basically worthless and can mean that you won't be qualified for a job for a while.

One of the things that Jewish communities have done for a while is have the men gain both a skill (university degree), and a trade, so that if one fails, they can switch to the other and still provide for their families. For example, after getting laid off in an economic downturn, being able to fix others refrigerators might be the thing that keeps yours from going empty.

The other thing that I wish people would learn is living well within their means, so that if something happens, they don't lose everything that was theirs / the bank's.

dx87• 7 years ago

I have one cousin who decided to be an electrician, and another that is doing elevator installation and repair. I was suprised how well they're paid, it's probably because we've got strong unions in the area. Neither did any college, and they started out making about $25 an hour with no prior work experience.

I still think people should go through college eventually, even just for resume padding. I spent ~8.5 years in the military and have almost 10 years of experience in my field, but HR at some places won't give me the time of day because I haven't finished my degree yet.

eikenberry3• 7 years ago

People need to remember some of these jobs are tied to specific parts of the economy and can have downturns like anything else. I have a couple friends who are electricians and when the housing/construction market went pear shaped a decade back they both had a rough time of it. Turns out lots of electricians work in relation to construction and when there is no new construction there is a lot less work.

ralusek• 7 years ago

They're not well paid because of their unions, they're well paid because they are necessary jobs for which there is more demand than supply.

latencyloser3• 7 years ago

I'm just gonna vent for a sec out of envy: As someone who did the software route, there are days I deeply wish I had done this sort of thing instead. My neighbor is a welder, lives in a house the same as mine, doesn't work crazy hours without getting paid overtime, doesn't spend weekends keeping up with the latest welding technology or practicing esoteric welding techniques just to pass an interview (as I sit here learning Rust because my team is starting to use it and practicing interview problems because I'm trying to transfer internally at the company). His boss probably doesn't pressure him to go give talks at welding conferences off hours as publicity to the company. Or come in on Saturday's to listen to presentations on what other parts of the welding org are working on. I'm tired of a career that consumes _my life_. I so truly just want to clock in, clock out, work about 40hrs/week and have time for my family. But I'm scared to do that in my industry, it just moves too fast and it's too easy to feel left behind, especially where I'm at in it--a weird limbo between programmer and manager where I'm expected to know how do to things without being allowed time to learn them. I loved programming when I was younger, and I still do, but my god I hate this industry. I daydream about taking a pay cut just to be able to go live in like... Cheyenne, WY or something and not be a part of the tech rush. Once I pay down my house a bit and can afford to start over with my family somewhere else, I just might. /rant

If any software folks who understand where I'm coming from wanna chime in on that, I'd love to hear about what you did about it... Or maybe I'm just a negative nancy, that's plausible too.

m0zg3• 7 years ago

If your company requires interview to transfer _internally_, you should consider leaving. Microsoft was like that (maybe still is, I don't know), and it was easier to get a job elsewhere than to go to a desirable team.

api• 7 years ago

High skill blue collar work is massively underrated. It also often allows you to live in places that are not ruinously expensive.

save_ferris• 7 years ago

I’m right there with you, there’s this weird insecurity that follows you around throughout your career, and it’s exhausting trying to satisfy it.

That said, the trades just don’t pay as much as software does. I’ve thought once or twice about making a career change to that world, but it’s not nearly the kind of money we like to think it is. Sure, there’s a skill shortage, but a cursory look on indeed paints a less glamorous picture

tsomctl• 7 years ago

Counterpoint: he is destroying his body. He's pretty commonly lifting heavy things and exposing himself to hazardous chemicals. Depending on what kind of welding he's doing, he's breathing smoke from all kinds of different paints and oils. There are fume extractors/ventilation, but they don't remove everything.

My dad and grandpa are both plumbers. My grandpa destroyed both his shoulders. He's had one replaced, and needs to have the other one done. My dad is well on his way to destroying his shoulders too.

d357r0y3r3• 7 years ago

I feel like my life and career as a software guy is pretty cushy. I work probably 35 hours a week on average, remote, on a schedule I prefer. I have a ton of time left over for socializing, hobbies, TV, games, etc. But, this was a deliberate progression for me.

And it could even get easier. I could do 20 hours a week of consulting work and still get by. I don't think I'd want to do that, but I could.

I don't know where you live or what area you work in, but I think the thing you want actually is achievable, maybe with a pay cut, or maybe not even. The fact that you're having to learn to use Rust because it's all the sudden getting used on projects says to me that you're working at some place where people put way too much of themselves into work.

sct202• 7 years ago

Blue collar work isn't all sunshine and rainbows. Blue collar workers often have to pull forced overtime on weekends or weeks on end if the job needs it. I worked in a factory for the longest year of my life, and we had a rule in place that you could not be forced or voluntarily work more than 15 days in a row without a day off. And people regularly hit that limit of 15 days working 12 hours a day during busy season, sure they were getting paid overtime but it wears on you. And then if you ever need to switch jobs, you might end up on the bottom of the seniority totem pole and stuck on 2nd or 3rd shift on a non-traditional work week. We only shut down on 2 days of the year and that was Christmas day and Thanksgiving day for 24 hours.

jorblumesea• 7 years ago

Alternatively, I know blue collar folks that are working crazy overtime, odd hours, sometimes 60-70 hours weeks to make close to software engineer salaries. I also know talented software engineers that work 40 hours a week and make x3-x4 what anything blue collar could pull in.

It's hard to generalize an entire industry.

darpa_escapee• 7 years ago

As someone who did the software route, there are days I deeply wish I had done this sort of thing instead.

Don't. As an office worker, you have to worry about carpal tunnel syndrome, your back going and cardiovascular disease from sitting.

Manual labor means repetitive strain injuries and working in an environment that's conducive to hurting one's self.

Those who do manual labor and aren't able to stack capital, become their own boss and hire others will have to worry about all of those things, and the effects of aging on their ability to do their job. Bodies deteriorate with time, and a single injury might prevent them from ever being able to work again when they hit their 40s, 50s or 60s.

I daydream about taking a pay cut just to be able to go live in like... Cheyenne, WY or something and not be a part of the tech rush

Find an agency or consultancy to work for. There are plenty of them using decades' old tech, maintaining their clients' projects, and "new and shiny" is actively avoided in favor of what's worked for years.

burlesona2• 7 years ago

Just FWIW your experience doesn’t sound anything like the software jobs I’ve had. In fact all my programming jibs have been pretty close to your ideal. I’m currently in an enterprise job, but have done startups and consulting agencies as well. Only the startup had any long hours.

I’d encourage you to get a new job. These days programmers are in extremely high demand, and you sound like you’ve gotten stuck working at a place with a non-ideal culture.

ip26• 7 years ago

There are software jobs all over the country if you don't mind working for ordinary salaries (instead of whatever nutso numbers NCG's are making at FAANG these days). Cheyenne itself isn't even that far from a variety of software.

whiddershins• 7 years ago

As the gp said though, you can enter those trades with a couple of years of apprenticeship, and I think you could do all the fun programming you desire on the side.

Is that something you could actually do?

crimsonalucard• 7 years ago

Gotta pick the right role. There are lots of software jobs where you can just coast. I would know, I'm in a startup, in San Francisco.

onion2k• 7 years ago

99% of the software industry isn't like that either, of course. You're just paying the cost of working in the glamorous bit that funds landlords the best.

Nursie• 7 years ago

I'm not going to call you a negative nancy, but I will say that you got a bad deal out of things, IMHO.

I work in the UK, I probably do a 35-40 hour week depending on the week. I work from home two days of that week. I don't spend my weekends learning new stuff unless I have an itch I want to scratch. I don't really have a boss.

I got into server-side programming from the get-go, it moves a lot more slowly in terms of tech than anything web/frontend-ish. I've picked up a lot of crypto/security knowledge along the way. I've managed to leverage that into a contract consultant-developer type of deal. I get paid well*

My only real downsides are that my commute is long because I work in London 3 days per week, but that's really down to me as I refuse to live there. I have no job security at all as a contractor, but to be honest I consider job security in permanent employment to be an illusion much of the time.

(*off the scale according to glassdoor, not sure how true that is, I know that contractors have their own scale. Compared to a silicon-valley salary it's still not that impressive, but then I don't have to put up with what you describe!)

antisemiotic• 7 years ago

doesn't work crazy hours without getting paid overtime

That's not a problem with software, that's a problem with the crazy idea of "unpaid overtime". I'm from Europe, and honestly the first time I heard about it I thought that it must just mean it's legal in US not to pay extra for overtime.

viraptor• 7 years ago

All of this really depends on the work environment.

I so truly just want to clock in, clock out, work about 40hrs/week and have time for my family.

Some people I worked with at HP did just that. Maybe try large, corporate environments?

commandlinefan2• 7 years ago

Part of the reason you feel compelled to do all of that as a professional programmer is because you're facing intense competition from desperate people everywhere in the world. Skilled "tradesmen" aren't. There's a reason we do and they don't, but we dare not speak it's name.

turk73• 7 years ago

My dad was a welder. I can speak confidently on the subject. I am a software engineer with a long academic career (PhD). I have lived in both worlds. I even weld as a hobby and used to work in his shop off and on.

For the most part, welding as a career sucks big time. It is a dirty, nasty, disgusting business and working as a welder can't possibly pay you enough to really ever get ahead unless you open your own business of some kind and have employees or something like that. It fucking blows compared to an office job writing software.

Even if you can tolerate the horrible working conditions--my dad had to crawl down pipes inside power plants barely big enough to fit into and weld internal seams. He also had to climb into ridiculously high places dragging heavy gear and spend hours up there welding in 100 degree heat of course wearing long-sleeves and heavy clothing. It was a living hell. He did this usually for about $25/hr (1980s, early 1990s).

It gets worse. Oh it get so much fucking worse: The people he had to work with were the most miserable lot on the planet. Drunks, druggies, wife beaters, guys with 20 DUI arrests, biker trash. These were his co-workers and constant companions. If you're the average of the 10 people who spend the most time around, he was doomed! Guys would go out to lunch and drink then come back and operate heavy machinery. OSHA? GTFO! They laughed at safety. No time for that on clock! People got hurt, went on Worker's Comp. I have dozens of stories from back then and I doubt it is any better today. Do you like unions? Because welders have to be in unions more often than not. Unions are just another power structure to lord over people with--the drunks run the unions. It's ugly business. They give the best jobs (foreman) to their buddies. Everyone else is SOL. Only 10 slots at a job in town? Guess you're working out of town this year. And so on.

Find any other job than welding for a living.

vorotato4• 7 years ago

You should quit a job that has you work crazy overtime if that's something you don't like. I don't _ever_ work more than 40 hours, religiously. I may not be the highest paid ever but I'm perfectly okay. Saving money, enjoying my time in the hammock in a modest house with a modest car.

bg4• 7 years ago

I feel the exact same way. I'm on a 5 year exit strategy to become a luthier.

RickJWagner2• 7 years ago

Yes, exactly!

This is one of the reasons 'free college' cannot happen. College jobs generally pay more, we cannot artificially remove associated costs or there will be an even bigger gap between degreed students and pupils of skilled trades.

The world needs plumbers, electricians, machinists, etc. We need to pay them well. Kids need to recognize the opportunities presented.

tschmi2• 7 years ago

The exact opposite is true.

With free college, more students from wider backgrounds could affort it. That would increase supply in college graduates while decreasing supply in workers of skilled trades. Thus, the latter would get to demand higher incomes (while the former would see theirs decreased).

smnrchrds• 7 years ago

HVAC, plumbers, machinists, welders and electricians are all facing massive shortages and offer a skilled, well paying job with benefits.

Exactly. These jobs pay well because for the past couple of decades, people have followed the common advice and overwhelmingly chosen to got to university instead of learning trades. Supply has thus become smaller than demand and wages have risen as a result.

Now that the tides are turning, if people start following the new increasingly common advice to learn trades instead of getting a degree, what will happen? If university enrolment falls by 50% and trades college enrolment increases by the same amount, what kind of job market the new cohort of tradespeople will have upon graduation? If enrolments remain like that for 20 years, what would the job market for trades be in 2040?

I sincerely doubt that blue collar jobs can offer better long-term career prospects, stability, and lifetime earnings than white collar ones. But then again, having gone through Alberta's recession and seeing what it did to blue collar jobs, I might be overly pessimistic.

selimthegrim• 7 years ago

Where else in Canada did the unemployed go?

koolba• 7 years ago

The overall costs are lower and the time from completion to realization that either it’s not for you or the job market is saturated (even just locally) is much quicker.

You’re less likely to end up with a glut of HVAC repairmen or welders versus something like lawyers or (would be) programmers.

sokoloff3• 7 years ago

I think that many skilled blue collar jobs will be very late to never automated. I think a lot of white collar jobs will be automated, possibly within the career lifespan of today’s 17-year olds choosing a path.

shams93• 7 years ago

Yeah it makes sense to maybe make this move I consistently get asked to do 140 hours for 40 hours pay in software being an electrician is easier work even if it has some hazards doing that much overtime is also hazardous probably more so than the job risks ofan electrician or welder

arelandt• 7 years ago

But with the current demand in software you don't really have to say yes to working 140 hours, much less without being paid for it.

At least that's what I've been doing here in Spain for the last 8 years.

The moment I'm asked to work longer hours than I want to I just say no and start looking for another job. It's quite easy to find another one and eventually you find a place where you are not demanded to do such a thing.

Noos• 7 years ago

So how many women do you know that are diesel mechanics?

A lot of the surplus in college graduates is due to women entering and graduating with four year degrees or more. They simply can't or won't repurpose to those trades. When I was in tech school, we were 80% or higher male, with virtually all the women clustered into hairdressing and machine drafting, with a few outliers in graphic design (printmaking then) and the trades you mentioned. And Machine drafting was where the misfits ended up, the ones who didn't fit into traditional trade work; none of us worked in our field if i remember.

Very few people seem to even think about how the trades can't be an answer for slightly above half of the college-going populace. Even then, honestly trade work is something that will nail you unless you move to management later on.

burlesona2• 7 years ago

I agree with everything you’re saying, but FWIW the article seems to be accusing colleges of being too “careerist” and offers basically the opposite of college AND trade school, a philosophical exploration without a particular emphasis on vocation.

paxys• 7 years ago

Those aren't contradictory. Historically, the intended purpose of University education has always been scholarship, research, exchange of knowledge and ideas etc. If you didn't want that, you would go find an apprenticeship or enroll in trade school.

The whole "have to go to college to get a job" requirement is a very recent development, and that is what the article is speaking against.

daodedickinson2• 7 years ago

I don't think trade school is a four letter word anymore. I hear much more respect these days, often from those with much student debt.

ryanmercer5• 7 years ago

Trade school cannot continue to be a four letter word in american households.

Then they need to stop being predatory and expensive. Here in Indy you basically have Lincoln Tech. Let's take a look at one of their programs:

https://www.lincolntech.edu/net-price-calculator

Want to learn "Welding and Metal Fabrication Technology" Estimated net price: $ 31576.00

Are you kidding me? 31k$ to learn how to weld?!?! Looks like average welder income is $16.09 an hour here in Indy... basically a year's gross salary... except you won't start at $16.09, looks like you'll start at $12 an hour or less.

If we do your profession:

"Diesel and Truck Technology" is $56,253 for a 13 month program

"Diesel and Truck Degree" is $63,473 for a 15 month 'degree'!!!

claudiulodro• 7 years ago

Community college! The PCC[1] welding program costs $5200 for a 1-year certificate. They also offer training in a variety of other trades for roughly the same price.

[1] https://www.pcc.edu/programs/welding/

dekhn• 7 years ago

I'm definitely considering recommending trade schools to my kids, after a life as a software engineer and scientist. More importantly, I wish schools taught more DIY home improvement in general, so people could maintain their houses without needing to depend on expensive repairpeople all the time!

AlwaysRock• 7 years ago

I grew up in Vermont and my high school had a tech program. Plenty of guys I went to school with here working as an apprentice by the time they graduated. I know a lot of them are just scraping by though. It seemed to me like there is a shortage of skilled people only in certain areas. I knew a dozen people I could call if a pipe burst in Vermont. In Chicago, I have to call a service and have a stranger fix it. I know a lot of the guys who I went to school with have zero interest in moving away from their hometown.

jamesmp984• 7 years ago

Ok, but I look at the entry level pay for electricians in my hour and see offering at $12/h with the top earners making $50-60k at tops

AngryData• 7 years ago

While I agree they are decent jobs, I think you are severely underestimating the costs of many trade jobs. My father, a heavy equipment mechanic, can't even open up a jar anymore because his hands are so worn down from wrenching his whole life, they are basically simple claws even if he won't admit it to himself. My grandfather who did masonry, had constant near unbearable back pain by his 50s to the point where he had trouble sitting up in a chair without severe effort. My uncle, who did general contracting, had to have both knees and both hips replaced because of the physical tolls. All of them suffer daily physical pain far beyond simple aging. Not to mention the boom and bust cycle of construction with the economy means unpredictable income in many cases. Not to mention the 20 years or so each of them have shaved off their life span.

Trades is a good job in your 20s, probably your 30s, but once you start getting to your 40s or above and your body stops performing and healing as it once did then it becomes a problem. How many trade workers never get to enjoy their retirement because their bodies have failed them?

The pay is decent, but in most cases it isn't good enough. If we started clearly putting a price tag on years of peoples lifespans and quality of life, trade jobs are no longer as attractive, and I think that is being reflected in peoples hesitation to join a trade, especially if they are a personal witness to a trade worker with failing health.

As for myself, I started trades myself doing carpentry, I was happy, then I got into an accident, another not uncommon occurrence in trades, after I recovered and tried to start again from a weaker state it became blindingly obvious how hard even just 10 years of real physical labor had done to my body. Yeah it became less noticeable once I got back to full strength, but I realized that it was just me ignoring the very real damage I was doing to my body on a daily basis. Today the only work ill even consider doing for public hire at market rate is high-end cabinetry. I still use my skills in my normal life, but im not going on some strangers roof for a paltry raise over a cashier. Im not going to breath in the chemical fumes and material dusts and pretend it isn't a problem. Im not going to lay brick for even a 20% raise. I plan on being able to actually enjoy my retirement rather than being confined to a lesser physical state full of pains and ailments.

jorgesborges• 7 years ago

I'm almost thirty with a degree in philosophy. College was easily the worst financial decision I've ever made. It's scary to reflect on how I made that mistake as a teenager. The people I've met that were able to successfully leverage the advantages of a college degree fall roughly into two categories: 1) people whose parents had the money to support them financially but also the sense to guide them with respect to a career; and 2) highly ambitious people with a plan. The problem is that there was a generation of students (myself included) that thought a university education led to a well-paying job. I know how incredibly naive that sounds. But it was also the understanding of many parents without formal education encouraging their children to attend. But I think in general there's an increasing awareness that this isn't the case and now we're having these anti-college conversations.

brianbreslin2• 7 years ago

what have you been doing for the last 8 years? Why did you pick philosophy?

ipython• 7 years ago

I wouldn’t be too hard on yourself. I have met some great technically minded program managers who majored in philosophy. Granted you may not get far in SV (don’t know - I don’t live there) but in other big Corp and fed govt you can find people who appreciate a well rounded candidate. Try sales engineering, product owner or program manager if you’re looking for tech jobs.

It’s too bad that we have such blinders on as an industry. There’s more to tech work than knowing the big-O notation of a given algorithm off the top of your head.

pacaro3• 7 years ago

I have a philosophy degree (strictly speaking History and Philosophy of Science) and I'm a staff software engineer at Google.

I've been doing this professionally for 25 years, and definitely my career had a slow start, it took a good nine months out of college to find my first job, which essentially served as an apprenticeship. I've certainly never had a problem with being insufficiently technical, if you can work your way through Gödels incompleteness theorem then you can work your way through PAXOS or an algorithms text book

eikenberry3• 7 years ago

I'm have a master is philosophy and don't regret it for a second. Helped shape my thinking in so many ways and was probably one of the largest contributors to my ongoing success as in software development. I've known a surprising number of philosophy majors in software, so I don't think it's an accident that it helped me. Seems like philosophy may be one of the better areas of study to help get your brain working in ways that are conducive to software.

csomar• 7 years ago

I used to hate Philosophy and think it's something people who can't do anything do. My vision changed lately and I think Philosophy and theoretical thinking is important.

However, abstract theoretical thinking without an adjacent skill (like software development), is probably useless in the market today. This is probably why the OP didn't find financial success.

Suggesting a philosophy career is then a bad idea. Suggesting a CS + Philosophy career might be a decent one though.

GreenJelloShot• 7 years ago

It is possible to study philosophy without putting your career on hold for 4+ years, and spending tens of thousands of dollars.

michaelchisari2• 7 years ago

a university education led to a well-paying job. I know how incredibly naive that sounds

That was the god honest trust for about 40 years, so it wasn't naive. The market conditions changed drastically and abruptly, but the same advice was being given.

astura• 7 years ago

Is this really true? I have my doubts there was ever a time where an English or philosophy or art history undergrad degree had very much value in the job market. And if there was, what specifically has changed to make that no longer the case?

lkbm3• 7 years ago

The problem is that there was a generation of students (myself included) that thought a university education led to a well-paying job. I know how incredibly naive that sounds

I hear this all the time from people in their 20s and early 30s, earnestly complaining that they were tricked into believing this, and I think it's somewhat true.

But at the same time, I got my double major in Philosophy (primary was Computer Science), so I know that if you major in Philosophy (or Art, or Sociology, or--this will really get them going--Gender Studies), there will be people crawling out of the woodwork and lining up to tell you your degree is useless and that you should study engineering.

After seeing Yet Another Non-CS Major Software Engineer, I recently joked that we should send a letter to all Freshman and tell them "Just study CS--it's what you're going to end up doing anyway."

My coworker, a software engineer with an art degree, turned to me and said "UT sent me that letter when I started college. I ignored it."

So....we're sending mixed signals to teens. I think you're right that it's starting to turn around and get less mixed. More pro-trade school stuff is appearing on Facebook, for one (though maybe it's that my friend group is shifting).

jameskegel• 7 years ago

What value is in a gender studies degree, and what path does that take careerwise?

daodedickinson2• 7 years ago

I was so afraid of debt I religiously avoided it. But I had another friend who racked up major debt in undergrad and then law school. When I asked him about paying it off, he said he could just get out of it through bankruptcy. Apparently the law student hadn't checked the law on that.

I attended a grad program for just one semester (since I was able to get the first semester as a free trial - but the rest of the degree would have cost $150K and the program was ranked #1 in the US News scam rankings and yet the school refused to give any statistics on employment of graduates. No problem for the women, who all got the entire $180K paid by corporations. A couple of the guys, though, as I feared, were unemployed for over two years... after $180K debt for a program ranked #1 with an acceptance rate well under 5%! One girl needed a job in less than a week to stay in the US, so her boyfriend hired her as a programmer though she had absolutely no knowledge or experience and so she just started getting paid to study CS. By then, I had about completed a CS program at another school but couldn't get a single job offer.

Several of the guys told me their plan to pay off the $180K was to get Bernie Sanders elected so he'd just forgive it. In fact, that's the most common plan I've heard. Very few people want to pay back student loans unless they quickly get a lucrative job and I dunno if I've found anyone (in person) other than me who felt at least a possible moral obligation to pay if I decided to take out the loan.

anonymous513311• 7 years ago

Really brings into question what type of law education that guy was getting if he didn't know student loans couldn't be bankrupted...I think I learned that from high school...

anonymous513311• 7 years ago

Absolutely agree. A big part of this problem, which is still being perpetuated today, is this idea that if you go to college and study ANYTHING then it will get you that coveted 50k/year salary job upon graduation. This idea was mainly perpetuated by elementary, middle and high school teachers, as well as parents who honestly should not have even been giving career advice to begin with.

Also you are by far not the only one in this situation. I have friends on my facebook that I look back at and see them still working the same job they worked while in college (making roughly 23k/year in Southern California!). They have degrees in sociology, psychology, philosophy, communications etc. Their degree has made them worse off because now they have student loans to repay on a degree which simply cannot support the repayment of such loans. Likewise, the degree did not increase their income at all. It is hard to believe but in reality, they would have been better off not going to college at all.

dsfyu404ed2• 7 years ago

A lot of people in these comments are forgetting which types of employment took the biggest hits in the past few recessions.

rb8082• 7 years ago

Were you around in 2001 after the dotcom crash? It was really difficult to find work. I know a few web devs that never worked in the industry again.

pkaye• 7 years ago

In 2000 I went back to college to get my MS degree. I remember in 2001 people were begging the college to admit them because they were laid off right around the admissions cutoff.

anonymous513311• 7 years ago

I graduated from high school in 2006 and was determined to study computer science when I went to college but by the time I had graduated I decided to just go with accounting because I had heard so many horror stories about how there were no jobs in tech anymore. I viewed accounting as something that might not pays much as a programmer but it would surely get me a job because every company needs accountants. Nowadays, being employed in accounting, I kinda regret it because my true passion was computer science.

maxdamantus2• 7 years ago

Luckily I'm from a country where university is still reasonably affordable .. in fact, since I left, they've made it so fees are government-funded for the first few years. Even though I did have a student loan, it was at least interest-free.

I think university education should be seen as an extension of all earlier education. If you start thinking in terms of "is this financially a good idea", you'll start wondering if people should be leaving school at 14 or something, because they're basically able to work at that age .. right?

Personally, I think the time I had at university was massively useful to my educational development. Even though a lot of what I learnt during that time I consider to be "self-taught", the university environment seemed much more conducive to self learning than the working environment, where you do what your company wants for 8 hours a day then spend the rest of the day trying to defocus.

Just like primary and secondary education, it seems insane to me to just think about tertiary education as some concrete monetary investment. If you give everyone the opportunity to spend a short amount of time (like 3 or 4 years, out of a career period of 45 years) focusing on a particular field of their choosing, surely there must be a massive benefit there to society.

Edit: Also, it should probably be pointed out that a lot of research that happens at universities is used in industry, so if the university system continues to be undermined, you can expect these gains to be lost. We're probably mostly programmers, right? Try pointing to a significant feature of any programming language (old or new) that isn't taken straight from academia.

simonsarris2• 7 years ago

If you start thinking in terms of "is this financially a good idea", you'll start wondering if people should be leaving school at 14 or something, because they're basically able to work at that age .. right?

Yes, this age is something we should wonder and re-wonder often over time. Is all the delayed adolescence of the current state desirable? Do all people need 4 years of high school? Do all degrees need to take 4 years for wildly different fields? Would many people benefit from a "work study" version of high school instead? Etc.

maxdamantus2• 7 years ago

I really dislike the idea of providing a monetary incentive for kids to stop going to school. People who are not well-off are going to be pressured into taking this path, causing a further arbitrary wealth gap within the population.

austincheney• 7 years ago

People I have worked with who have graduate level education (masters or doctorate) are extremely well prepared when performing as a software developer. The education can be in any academic discipline.

People who have a bachelors degree are less prepared to work as a software developer. Counter intuitively this lack of preparation is magnified for those with a computer science degree. Most of my computer science coworkers have historically had weaker communications skill, such as describing details with precision objectively or documenting a simplified set of instructions. I am so under whelmed that basic reading and writing are something I would test for in a job interview.

In addition to weak communication skills I have also observed less flexibility or willingness to learn unfamiliar skills from computer science skills undergraduates. It’s as though these students believe they know all they need and the employer should adapt to the set of techniques these employees were taught. I have had heard somebody on HN describe this as lame duck syndrome. I have observed this enough that it biases me in opposition to job candidates with a comp sci education.

anonymous513311• 7 years ago

Those little quirks can be eliminated through proper employment screening. You can implement personality screening, skills verification exams and so on. Assuming the screening is effective, these undesirable candidates can be eliminated quickly.

thrownblown2• 7 years ago

Who goes to college to work in tech anymore?

esoterica5• 7 years ago

Most people who work in tech? Do you think the number of Google engineers with a degree is above or below 50%. Take a guess.

armatav• 7 years ago

Do you think their employees make up more or less than 50% of the population of engineers in Silicon Valley?

anonymous513311• 7 years ago

Tech is just an overall outlier since the demand is so high in that field that employers are willing to hire people who just have the skills to do the job. In more traditional career paths, like engineering, a college degree is absolutely required to even be considered for the position. No degree = no interview. Lots of other professional careers are like this as well like accounting.

cwperkins• 7 years ago

Joe Biden said it himself, he didn't like how elitist America is becoming. I couldn't agree more and couldn't be happier to see people choosing a career in the trades. They can be high paying and stable.

duxup• 7 years ago

That really reads more like something centering more on some personal philosophy than something that would challenge traditional education.

Barrin92• 7 years ago

Yes, to me this is the very worst version of counter-culture. This isn't challenging the elite instititutions, it's even one step up the ladder, like some 70s hippie experiment of the privileged who roleplay as workers in some retreat in the mountains reading Plato. Gender segregation and overly strict "no alcohol" policies included. it's rebel roleplaying.

If people want practical experience and physical work the organisers of these institutions should go to Switzerland, learn how the apprenticeship system works and bring it back to America so people can be set on a viable career path.

ngngngng3• 7 years ago

Good. But on that note, there are ample opportunities to get an affordable education in the US. You just have to make 2 simultaneous decisions. 1) Go to a public school, 2) Stay in-state.

Why the hell are so many people choosing non-public and out of state schools? Do people really think that double the cost gets you double the returns?

smoknib• 7 years ago

Can’t tell if srs or trolling

xwdv• 7 years ago

For networking mostly. People feel if you go to an elite college you will network with the elite, and this will come in handy. If you are going to a public state school, then people feel they will just be networking with cheap chumps and nobodies. It’s horrible.

thrav2• 7 years ago

I did this and have regretted it most of my life. Things are pretty great 10 years later, so I can’t complain too much, but I needed to get out of my home state to thrive.

The difference between my life there and my life when I said fuck this place and moved somewhere cool, outdoorsy, and away from all the baggage is night and day.

ngngngng3• 7 years ago

I've seen this in practice, but I don't think it's that you have to leave home to thrive. In my experience there are many places where the economy is just not strong enough for beginning a career, or there are too many applicants and not enough jobs.

I grew up in Southern California, and I don't know anyone that stayed there that is "thriving". All have college degrees, still living with parents, not making enough money for me to even consider them "living".

I would say it's a very wise decision to try and move to somewhere with a booming economy as soon as possible.

JadeNB• 7 years ago

I did this and have regretted it most of my life.

I think I can tell from context, but, just to be clear, is the 'this' you did "(1) Go to a public school, and (2) Stay in-state", or "choosing non-public and out of state schools"?

colechristensen2• 7 years ago

There is a robust thesis to be made that the only value of university in the current environment is in its exclusivity (expressed as selectivity for social value + wealth). Education received is not largely relevant.

More people choosing state schools won't make the mean or median degree cheaper, it will just make state schools more expensive with lower admittance rates.

People do not know how to evaluate the quality of education. The 'real' quality of the education also doesn't matter because it is not actual ability that governs success but ability to play well the game that has arisen from elementary school through new-grad hires.

If you take out the mechanics of the game which are arbitrary you get an economy where there are far more people who are able to be educated and who have been educated for any particular field than there are jobs and success becomes a lottery. (Success is already a lottery hidden behind the game mechanics)

ngngngng3• 7 years ago

exclusivity

This is expressed in The Case Against Education, which strengthens it's argument by convincing the reader that university is really only useful as a finishing school.

Are there any more extensive writings on the game mechanics of education and successfully joining the workforce?

gravypod3• 7 years ago

I'm in state and in a public school and I'm in huge debt. Family used to make a lot of money. Drugs and situation ruined my family just as I was going to college. FAFSA only takes "$year -2" income into account so my $0/month income family was being given the support that a 6-figure family got. Had to take out a 30k loan at >20% APR since no one could co-sign for me except my mom and she'd been evicted 2 times, stopped paying her bills, and had no income so it's all i could find from Sallie Mae.

"Just do x" doesn't help when the game is rigged from the start.

I'm doing everything right:

1. Work during school (on campus & industry) 2. Getting good grades 3. Applying for FAFS 4. In state 5. Engineering progression (IT) 6. Not dorming (except first year because of family situation) 7. No meal plan

I'm levereged over $100k in this degree. Hoping to finish soon. I know my situation is nonstandard but this misinformation is just polluting the dialogue on this topic and it's something that really hurts people like me.

diminoten3• 7 years ago

Your situation is insanely rare, it's not fair to think what you're living through is what people should be talking about as an average.

zhte4152• 7 years ago

APR of >20% is criminal. And from Sallie Mae.. my mind boggles. You're in a major in a state school with good grades that provides solid employment options, I'm sure there's an opportunity here for someone browsing this thread to compete in student loans.

Get it paid off as quickly as you can (sure, you know this). Best wishes.

danieltillett2• 7 years ago

Why did you not defer going to college for two years?

zhte4152• 7 years ago

Not only in-state, also overseas. Finland, Germany (and sometimes Denmark) offer free tuition and stipend for international students. Hong Kong University also (postgrad, AFAIK). There are probably more. English language is the language of 'instruction'.

Every one of the (ex-)overseas(ish) graduates that I know from these countries' universities have had nothing but praise and thanks for the opportunity, have loyalty, promote in their home countries, and live (and earn, and pay tax) there for several years, and if returning home will gladly return / switch between countries.

If any high schoolers reading this thread have not considered this option, take a chance to take a look.

anonymous513311• 7 years ago

I was extremely frugal with my college decisions and effectively optimized for cheapest option. This is what I did.

1. In high school I took as many AP courses as I could possibly take and realistically pass. I ended up passing 6 of these exams. These exams cost $80 and get you the equivalent of "one course" worth 3 credits. My US history exam gave me 6 credits for 2 full courses! So in total I got 21 units. In effect, I paid $480 to complete 17.5% of my college education!

2. After graduation, I did not go directly into college. Instead, I skipped one semester and then used CLEP exams to knock out an additional 5 exams. These are exactly the same as AP exams but you basically self-study for the subject. The subjects you study are basically general education subjects like sociology or psychology. I got an additional 15 units from these exams for a total cost of about $500. At this point. I have completed 30% of college education for a cost of $980.

3. I apply to a community college and am subsequently accepted. All of my AP + CLEP exam credits are accepted. I then complete another 24 units at the community for a total cost of about $2,400. I don't fully recall what the cost was but this was on the high end estimate. At this point, I am basically 50% done with my college for a total cost of $3,380.

4. I apply to a state university which I am accepted to and then complete the last 60 units for my BA degree. I don't recall fully what the cost is completely but I would estimate it to be about $3,000 per semester. So estimated total cost for my BA degree was $15,380.

These numbers are just for the tuition and books. I lived at home the entire time, commuting to school. I also was working full time the entire time and paid cash for everything. Never had any student loans. When I graduated it took me about 4 months to find a job paying 52k per year. Major was accounting and I live in Southern California.

Most important thing is to make sure to use the resources that are available to you. AP and CLEP are EXTREMELY value resources to you. It just boggles my mind when I talk to people who complain about their student loans then I ask them if they took AP or CLEP exams. Some of them say they never even heard of these programs....are you kidding me?

christopher8827• 7 years ago

Good. I think the university system is outdated and there should be other institutions to train people for the workforce.

ne01• 7 years ago

College is the idea of paying someone to force you to read a bunch of (mostly useless) books.

Just read books and google if you don’t know what to read

And choose a field that does not require a degree to work

This way you save your time and money and probably will end up being more successful

anonymous513311• 7 years ago

Honestly, this is good advice.

ryanmercer5• 7 years ago

And choose a field that does not require a degree to work

The problem with this is, more and more employers are wanting a 4-year degree for ANY job, even basic office work because 1/3 of the country has at least a 4-year degree.

randomdata• 7 years ago

Specifically, employers look for a degree when the market for a particular line of work is saturated. Practically speaking, an employer can only evaluate a handful of people who are vying for a job, so filtering out everyone without a degree is a quick, and legally accepted, way to cull applicants down to smaller numbers.

The problem is that if you are trying to compete in a saturated market, you are already going to lose as there is always someone who is better, faster, and willing to work for less money, leaving the degree to be of no great benefit to you, with respect to getting a job.

Causality1• 7 years ago

The mainstream college culture needs to die, no question. It's my opinion, however, that "hippie wilderness getaway for upper middle class kids to find themselves" is just profiteering from disenchantment.

They will take on 15 to 20 hours a week of manual labor in Sitka all at an affordable price found the program in order to give young people a taste of the education he received at an older countercultural experiment, Deep Springs College Deep Springs — a tuition-free, highly selective two-year liberal arts college Our goal is to make our credits transferable to four-year institutions upon accreditation

So in order to further the spirit of a tuition-free liberal arts college, is charging "students" an as-yet unrevealed fee, working them for four hours a day covering almost every single non-management job at the Sheldon Jackson Campus, with absolutely no set curriculum or accreditation or transferable credits.

This is by the far the most transparent scam I've ever seen make it to HN.

vetelko• 7 years ago

No college. No debts.

achingtooth• 7 years ago

I don't think the gimmicky travel to Alaska, take a gap year, or having "a way to talk about one’s higher purpose in the world" is important at all. What is important is having cheap tuition and solid courses. As much as people bash on college, it's still important. I don't have a college degree and it's been impossible for me to find a 'real job', though some of that may be due to my age. This is despite having a decent amount of programming and freelance experience. Overall college is important if you want to go down the traditional job path smoothly, I think these people are focusing on the wrong thing.

testpostpls• 7 years ago

I disagree. I think it’s important to take the time to develop a personally meaningful life philosophy. Too few do. None of us is facing starvation.

anonymous513311• 7 years ago

I would argue that obtaining a high quality education and developing meaningful life philosophy are two separate areas. Colleges need to move away from the teaching life philosophy to everyone. If people already know what they want to do with their life then just let them take the essential courses to get valuable skills/education. If people want to learn about meaningful life philosophy then they can do that on their own.

anonymous513311• 7 years ago

Completely agree - having solid courses that teach relevant theory/skills is extremely valuable. We simply need to make the means by which we take such courses more efficient and therefore lower cost.

The bigger issue here is that employers have gravitated far too much towards the college degree as a signal device for a quality employee which effectively shuts out alternate forms of education. Employers need to be willing to hire people who are smart but don't have a college degree. If someone self-studied all the subjects on their own and it is clear they are on the same level as a college grad then they should not be excluded from the hiring process.

It is almost like we need some sort of "SAT" for various subjects. That way if someone is really smart then they can just take this SAT in whatever subject to evaluate their knowledge. We sort of have this already for certificates but it seems like employers don't place much value on them compared to a college degree. There are exceptions but they are mostly outliers IMO.

yostrovs2• 7 years ago

It is basically illegal by federal law to test potential employees for their overall intelligence. It is considered racist, the term being 'adverse impact' in this case.

Corporations effectively outsource intelligence testing to colleges, as they have no other choice to obtain info about their future employees' abilities.

icelancer• 7 years ago

> I don't have a college degree and it's been impossible for me to find a 'real job'

More and more people are becoming like me in this market and not overweighting degrees. I don't care about your formal education and I actively blind resume submissions for it through an assistant. I care about what you've done and what you're passionate about.

On the way to hiring 100 people pretty soon here and growth is solid. Leads to a lot of diversity of thought and background, which is a good thing.

After all, I'm a dropout nobody, too. Someone's gotta look out for us.

victor9000• 7 years ago

You may also consider studying in a country like Germany, where they heavily subsidize education even for immigrants.

wyclif• 7 years ago

This is nothing new, St John's College in Annapolis, Maryland has been educating this way for years (tutorials and no grades). The only question is if it will become more widespread in the face of the erosion of the quality of higher education.

jokoon• 7 years ago

I went and failed school programs several times as an adult, in a country where those programs are free. The last 2 programs I went to were 1 year programs. I already have programming skills yet they did not give me the "degree" because they might have perceived a lack of motivation. Those programs were web oriented and I'm more focused on industrial programming.

I tend to dislike higher education as a general rule because it's more a process of fitting in and obeying a teacher, instead of focusing on the subject matter. I don't care that much actually because I know I'm already skilled at programming. I might not be an excellent programmer, but I can do a lot of what's required.

While education is important, I have put a lot of personal time to learn more and more programming skills after the year I failed one, 8 year ago. Yet the job market is constantly focused on "the degree", while everybody knows that self-teaching is more important in programming. I don't get hired and it's always a matter of trusting a new guy who doesn't have professional experience and can only talk about his skills.

Personally I don't have a lot of faith into the market and the market doesn't have faith in me. So yes, I have plenty of reasons to say that people going into higher education are lucky, privileged or just obedient people who are not yet capable of learning new things, or did not have to waste so much resources to learn things they could do at home.

In the end, you will either have large companies with normative, schooled people, or start ups, who will always struggle to start products because they have no resources.

I'd say that higher education can be bad because normalization slow downs innovation, so in the end, degrees become privileges. People who are taught skills but don't use them to improve society and constantly encourage obedience are a brake on society. In an age of inequality, degrees are seen as rent seeking. People get degrees for comfort. Other people won't seek degrees because they don't want to obey to a system they see as lame and evil.

itstimefor2020• 7 years ago

I feel the same way. I went straight into the workforce with 17. Now 5 years later I feel like I absolutely need that degree to advance my career or to simply avoid my resume being thrown out. So I went back to school and I bet you can already guess what happens. Now that I have to spend at least 25 hours a week studying I barely have time to work on my software skills. I used to learn stuff like writing compilers, work with FPGAs, read up on machine learning, etc... You can argue that maybe I focused too much on individual topics and a CS degree covers many more but at the same time the lack of a degree isn't what's hindering me from working in these areas. I'll finally be done with school soon and then I can go to college next year and I definitively am going to specialize in topics that I am unfamiliar with such as robotics. However, I bet the end result will be that I will work on the same trivial web applications as I am doing right now but with a pay bump and more opportunities during the job hunt.

jamesmp984• 7 years ago

I feel the same way. I went straight into the workforce with 17. Now 5 years later I feel like I absolutely need that degree to advance my career or to simply avoid my resume being thrown out.
However, I bet the end result will be that I will work on the same trivial web applications as I am doing right now but with a pay bump and more opportunities during the job hunt.

I started working in the field professionally around 18 or 19, and I'm begging to fear this same thing. If I do decide to go back to school, it'd be in hopes that I can escape subfields that bore me to death, but I feel the reality is that there just really isn't any real job market for the things I'm interested in.

bryanwb2• 7 years ago

Several things irk me about this article

First, the proposed educational experiences sound like more silly adventures for kids with money (or debt) to burn. You could learn more about life and yourself by working at McDonald's for a year.

Second, it fucking annoys the shit out of me that when articles like this talk about "the liberal arts" they really mean humanities. I have yet to meet someone who espouses the merits of a liberal arts education who realizes that it technically includes math and the natural sciences. How many English majors takes statistics? How many History majors take discrete math or more than the most basic math requirements needed to graduate? Bet it is less than 1%.

I am all for a liberal arts education as long as it has equal helpings of math and the natural sciences along w/ English, philosophy, etc.

Have you really "learned to think" from your humanities education if you have no understanding of calculus, probability, statistics, or physics? If you have never learned how to design and conduct an experiment?

A "good" university education is simple and not sexy. High quality courses taught by passionate teachers. Nothing else. No student unions, no sports teams, no academic or emotional counseling, no beautiful buildings, no study abroad or fucking trips to Alaska. Which basically describes university studies in central Europe and Israel.

Not very sexy so no NYT articles about it.

I actually attended a pricey "liberal arts" college where I majored in computer science. I am currently in the OMSCS program at Georgia Tech and the quality of education I am receiving through it is much better at less than a tenth of the cost. We have better discussions on Slack than I did sitting in seminars w/ a bunch of rich kids 20 years ago. No picturesque campus to stroll through though :)

hadsed• 7 years ago

Your second point seems really overblown. Language evolves, embrace and accept that. People seem to be using the words humanities and liberal arts to mean the same thing these days.

bryanwb2• 7 years ago

bullshit, the removal of natural sciences and math from liberal arts reflects today's math-phobia and fear of doing hard things.

bawana• 7 years ago

It’s not about blue collar vs white collar. It’s about working for yourself or being an employee. Corporate culture is ‘anti human’, anti-planet, and anti-social. When you have to use energy to demonstrate your ‘adherence to policy’ that is waste. Furthermore, corporations make you spend that energy from your private store.

The Anti-College Is on the Rise

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