Ask YC: What's the most hacker-friendly keyboard?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=185743

by ComputerGuru • 18 years ago

23 77 18 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I'm using a Logitech Internet Navigator Keyboard that I got for $6.99 over 5 years ago. Since then I've tried a lot of other keyboards (including some really expensive Microsoft and Logitech models) and found that the flashier they are the less coder-friendly they become and always came back to the same basic keyboard...

Which keyboards do YC members use? What's a good keyboard for someone coding/typing 18 hours a day, from a purely tactile-feedback, key-layout POV?

goofygrin• 18 years ago

I carry a Microsoft Natural Keyboard Elite with me wherever I'll be for longer than a day.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-det...

Not the new crappy ones, but the old ones (I've got about 4 and they are all turning a nice yellow patina).

pmjordan• 18 years ago

I've been using a QWERTZ Natural Keyboard Pro [1] since 2001, and I love it. I keep meaning to try a more effective keyboard layout such as Programmer Dvorak, but I'm finding it hard to find one that appeals to me. I don't want to lose the extra Umlaut and Accent keys so US Dvorak isn't really an option.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MS_Natural_Keyboard_Pro.J...

meatpeople• 18 years ago

Likewise, but I'm using one of the newer ones (Natural Ergonomic 4000) and I like it. Been meaning to mod it ala tlb (http://tlb.org/keyboardchop.html) to get the mouse closer but I've never gotten around to it. Would love to have a trackball in between the keyboard sections to see if it works but never looked into it either.

ComputerGuru2• 18 years ago

The "new crappy ones" are the ones that I'm referring to in the OP - I got myself a 50 dollar MS keyboard, and my mistake ratio went up like crazy as a result of un-even tactile feedback that resulted in letters appearing out of order far too often. Stay away from them :)

silencio5• 18 years ago

Ohh, I never got used to the split keyboards. I got one Microsoft keyboard (I believe it was called the ComfortCurve?) that was something between a regular keyboard and a split keyboard but wasn't split. It was fairly comfortable and cheap.

I find it impossible to type a lot of things I want to, not only because some of my fingers are slower than others, but also because I usually do keyboard shortcuts with one hand, even if it's ctrl+alt+del. It's not easy to do on keyboards like those :(

dcurtis• 18 years ago

This was one of the first keyboards I ever used. It was also the worst keyboard I have ever used. And because I learned to type on it, for about a year afterwards, I couldn't type properly on normal keyboards.

Stay away.

randombit• 18 years ago

IBM Model M

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_Keyboard

jamess• 18 years ago

Seconded. I'm still using a 15 year old buckling spring keyboard, they're robust and they have great tactile feedback. Although if I were working in open plan, I'm sure the noise would drive everyone else spare.

You can get new keyboards from here: http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/cus101usenon.html

jksmith• 18 years ago

Orig PS2 is what I'm typing on right now. I started out on orig XT/AT keyboards, which have an even stiffer click, but I had to quit using them because they're missing F11-F12 keys.

IMO, the orig IBM keyboards are still the best keyboards ever made. Lots of PS2 keyboards on eBay for a reasonable price, but AT keyboards are going for 150-200 bucks! 20 years pass and computer items start becoming collectible.

rms• 18 years ago

Yeah, definitely get one of the newly built Unicomp Model M's, the originals go for more money on eBay. I had one that I loved until I spilled water on it. Don't spill water on these keyboards.

subwindow• 18 years ago

I had one of those for a few years, and it was a joy. It really sprung back against your fingers, and had a really satisfying sound to it.

jdavid4• 18 years ago

why use a plain model M

i sooooooo want one of these

http://steampunkworkshop.com/keyboard.shtml

orib• 18 years ago

Majorly second that opinion. Best keyboard I've ever used.

mmmurf3• 18 years ago

I don't recommend the model M. I used one for a few years and enjoyed the feedback and noise, but I found that it got me in the habit of pounding the keys really hard with my fingers.... overall not a good strategy for RSI prevention.

Modern quiet keyboards are designed precisely enough that a small amount of resistance is all you need to type comfortably and accurately.

jacobolus2• 18 years ago

This is a very odd reaction. The reason that the Model M is so great is that it allows the user to not pound the keys:

- It has a force—travel-distance response curve with a distinct “click” which gives clear tactile feedback as soon as the key has been actuated (this is when it has been pushed about 2/3 of the way down). As it is pushed near the bottom, resistance gradually increases, so that it is in fact quite difficult to smash the key all the way down—it takes deliberate effort.

- It gives clear auditory feedback along with the tactile feedback (those buckling springs).

You should not be driving the key as far as it can go, as that will cause RSI. Fortunately, this happens less on a Model M than on any other keyboard I have ever used.

IBM designed these things based on decades of experience making the most popular typewriters among secretaries. Good typists can type faster on a Model M than nearly any other keyboard, with much less risk of RSI.

aristus• 18 years ago

The happy hacking lite 2. I use a mouse & graphics tablet, so the small width helps a lot. I wish it had a separate fn key row, however.

http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/haphackeylit1.html (With default viaweb store ugliness! :)

mrjbq7• 18 years ago

I couldn't agree more. I use the professional version with the blank keys.

The Happy Hacking keyboards have a great feel (the keys are weighted individually) and give a good boost to typing speed.

epi0Bauqu2• 18 years ago

GrandTec Virtually Indestructible Keyboard. I happen to use the glow model: http://www.grandtec.com/products/video/vik_glow.html

It took a little while to get used to it, but now i am quite happy with it.

Also check out: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=126360

icey3• 18 years ago

Are those the flexible rubber mat keyboards? I checked one out previously and thought it took an extraordinary amount of force to depress the keys reliably.

epi0Bauqu2• 18 years ago

Yeah. It is that way when you first start out, but when you get used to it, not so much. At this point, I don't really make any mistakes and am not pressing that hard. And it is really quiet.

rw• 18 years ago

Kensington SlimType; thin like a laptop keyboard, clicky and fast (unlike new imac keyboards):

http://us.kensington.com/html/5463.html

jdavid4• 18 years ago

i have one of these keyboards for my living room pc, it has the same spacing as a laptop keyboard, however mine has some strange & tiny backspace, for which i tend to hit the \ key instead. i highly recommend it, but maybe not for hacking. even for gaming its a bit off.

gtani2• 18 years ago

i'm not that picky about keyboards, as long as it's not the white/clear plastic Apple PoS. i do like the matias mac models, besides the cheap wired Logitech and Kensingtons:

http://matias.ca/products/index.php

pchivers• 18 years ago

IMHO the Kinesis Advantage is the Rolls Royce of keyboards. After having used it for over a year, I can't imagine going back to anything else.

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured_usb.htm

diego• 18 years ago

Second that. I've had two for the past three years (one at home, one at the office). Decided to get one after a weekend of frantic hacking that left my fingers in pain. After a month using the Kinesis Advantage my fingers felt great, never going back to a regular keyboard.

mechanical_fish• 18 years ago

Yep, the Advantage Pro. The ultimate emacs power tool.

cstejerean2• 18 years ago

I noticed I don't usually use the Emacs key bindings for navigation (C-f,b,n,p) when using my Kinesis keyboard. I use the arrow keys most of the time since they are located in such a convenient place. I really wish someone would make a laptop with a similar keyboard layout (even if it's not contoured, at least keep the split and put the useful keys within thumb reach).

cstejerean2• 18 years ago

I love the Kinesis Advantage keyboard. It's incredibly comfortable and the in hardware customizations (key remap and macros) are awesome.

It takes a couple of days to get used to it (the keys are not diagonal like in a standard keyboard, and it takes a little while for your muscle memory to adjust). By the way this will really improve your touch typing if you don't have proper form (since the keys are contoured to the shape of the hand there really is no way to type but the right way).

holygoat2• 18 years ago

I bought one for work. A few months later, I bought one for home.

vikram• 18 years ago

Yeah invested in one last year. When I was having lots of pain in my fingers and wrist. Took a couple of days to get used to it. Since then I haven't had any problems. I can't imagine working with a regular keyboard ever again. Interestingly my typing speed has gone up too.

dangoldin• 18 years ago

Not a bloomberg keyboard - those are terrible.

baha_man3• 18 years ago

Das Keyboard.

http://www.daskeyboard.com/

icey3• 18 years ago

Do you actually use one of these regularly? I see a lot of people recommending them, but very few people using them as their daily keyboard.

uruzseven• 18 years ago

I use one every day and am typing this on one right now. I actually like it so much, I bought 2 more. One for work and one for home plus and extra on in my closet in case the company goes out of business.

The blank aspect is kinda cool but I really like the feel and sound of the thing. I don't know if I type any faster with it and finding some characters like % and ^ can be difficult at first.

I also know of several former co-workers that use them.

baha_man3• 18 years ago

Yes, I bought one to use at work and it's now the only keyboard I use.

It took a little getting used to, but now the only time I miss a keyboard with letters on the keys is typing passwords one-handed while I'm on the phone. Seriously, I don't even notice that the keys are blank any more.

NowStreamMike• 18 years ago

I've been using a Das Keyboard (original and II) for the last several years. Surrounded by 4 of them right now actually.

The model II is supposed to be closer to the IBM Model M. Don't know how close it is, but I love the feel.

Originally I got one for the geek cred (lamer), but once you go blank you never go back... err...

aditya• 18 years ago

You know, the new apple keyboards are NOT bad (expensive, but very very nice feedback on the keys)

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB110LL/A?fnode=home/shop_...

abstractwater• 18 years ago

I second that. Another great feature is how close and tight the plastic keys are to the metal base: very few things can slip underneath them, and the keyboard stays exceptionally clean.

silencio5• 18 years ago

For some very odd reason, I find myself typing as much as 20-30 wpm faster (so something like 150wpm-ish with 98+% accuracy, or so the typing tests say) on the low profile Apple keyboards (I have the bluetooth one, and my MacBook's keyboard) than on any other keyboard I've used. It makes a noticeable dent in the time it takes to reply to emails and to get my point across in IM and IRC.

Maybe it's the lesser effort required to press the key. The same effect happens when I'm playing the piano on certain pianos like that..just so much easier to play faster.

wheels• 18 years ago

I noticed the same once I finally became a laptop warrior some years back. Afterwards I switched from clickety keyboards to slimlines on all of the desktops that I work on. I really do think that the shorter finger distance makes a difference. Additionally not having a keypad means I can get the mouse closer to the keyboard, which reduces strain for me.

brent• 18 years ago

I agree. The feedback is the best I've felt. However, I also like the spacing and arrangement of the keys.

Dylanfm• 18 years ago

I bought the bluetooth version last week and I am very happy with it so far. It's almost the same as my MBP's keyboard, so the transition is not bad. The itunes controls are handy too.

fuelfive• 18 years ago

SafeType vertical keyboard. The MS Natural Elite was giving me RSI until I switched.

http://safetype.com/

rdouble• 18 years ago

apple laptop keyboard, kinesis ergo, happy hacking.

rewind• 18 years ago

I have a Goldtouch and it's worth every penny. You have total control over the splay and pronation, and it doesn't have a number pad on the right. This was the main thing I was looking for in the first place. I wanted the hand on my mouse to be as close to center as possible.

http://www.keyovation.com/pc-64-2-goldtouch-adjustable-keybo...

SwellJoe• 18 years ago

I have a couple of IBM small form factor keyboards (model SK-8809) from several years back. It is no longer manufactured, and the replacement model has laptop style keys which I don't find as satisfying. It's a full 104 key keyboard, with full-sized keys and all function keys and a numpad, but it's about 2 inches shorter than standard full-sized keyboards...it brings esc closer to home (I use vim). Pretty much everything is just closer together, and so reaching for delete, pg up/down, etc. is nicer. Likewise for the mouse.

And it's an IBM, and though it's not the Model M style of tactile feel, it has a nice feel. Not too much resistance but not smooshy, either, the way MS and Logitech keyboards feel.

icey3• 18 years ago

I use a Happy Hacking Lite Keyboard. I like the key action on it a lot; but I do find myself missing function keys and a number pad.

However, the benefit of not having a number pad really shows up if you end up having to mouse + type a lot - you barely have to move your hand at all.

jdavid4• 18 years ago

does anyone use one of these?

http://www.amazon.com/C51-A04031-Laser-Virtual-Keyboard/dp/B...

jdavid4• 18 years ago

i wish there was a mouse technology based on that. it would be sooooo cool to have your laptop just sense your movement to the left and right of it, as if you had two mice. but, what am i , thinking that would require someone to do something totally unique.

jwr• 18 years ago

Beware, fellow hackers. Many of us will suffer serious wrist problems. I did, after 15 years of hacking on various keyboards. What finally got me was 2 years of working on a tiny laptop keyboard (a Japanese 12" laptop).

Sit down in front of your keyboard, place your hands on it like you usually do when you type. Are your wrists bent? If they aren't perfectly straight, you're heading for trouble. How much trouble exactly depends on your genes, but trouble it is.

I found that once you are in pain you very quickly determine which keyboard is healthy. It's the one you can type on with the least amount of pain. My personal ranking:

1. Fingerworks TouchStream. Those aren't produced anymore, Apple bought Fingerworks and turned their technology into multi-touch screens. They sell for ungodly amounts on eBay, and for good reasons. Once you get used to the gestures, you never feel at home on any other keyboard.

2. Microsoft Natural and variants thereof. Any keyboard that is split in the middle is way healthier than any straight keyboard.

3. Any other keyboard that is wide enough so that you can keep your wrists relatively straight.

The keyboard on a MacBook Pro is what I'd consider the limit as to width -- go any narrower, and you're certain to hurt yourself.

Be careful, people. If only I could go back in time and tell myself to use healthy keyboards...

baha_man3• 18 years ago

In my personal experience, it's the mouse that does the most damage. If you use Emacs but switch Caps Lock and Ctrl, you'll be much better off than using a normal IDE and the mouse.

If you must use the mouse, try using your non-dominant hand. To start with, it feels strange, but only for a few days.

silencio5• 18 years ago

I tend to mouse with my left hand (I'm pretty ambidextrous but more right handed than left), but my problem is that nobody makes mice for left handed mousers. Every single one of my logitech mice, especially the one I love (mx revolution)? For right handed people. Logitech makes like all of one lefty mouse (not counting the equally lame ambidextrous mice), and it's an old model I'm not interested in. All the other manufacturers are the same.

The only exceptions are touchpads (obviously), which I switch hands for, and Razer gaming mice which are nice but not as nice as using an mx revolution for everyday mousing needs.

Hexstream• 18 years ago

I use a TypeMatrix 2030 and I love it! Legacy aside, non-staggered keys makes so much more sense. It only took about 2 days to get used to it. The keyboard is small and thin so you can have the mouse close and you don't break your wrists.

I did have to remap some keys because the default layout is horrendous. First, I use Dvorak but from the OS, not the keyboard itself so I never use the dvorak built-in to the keyboard. And here are my remappings, in logical-key --> labelled-key format (compare with http://www.typematrix.com/images/newpics/new2030us_640x266.j...):

  Left Ctrl --> Bottom Shift
 Shift --> Pg Dn
 Alt --> Pg Up
 AltGr --> Left Alt
 Pg Up --> Right Alt
 Pg Dn --> Right Ctrl
 Right Shift --> F32

I use emacs so I use Ctrl extensively, it's great to have it where I put it because 1. it's very convenient to reach and 2. I don't have to alternate left and right Ctrl, I always use the same key. Point #2 also applies to having the shift on the equivalent position of the right hand, this way I can write in UPPERCASE without having to use caps lock! Having Right Shift as F32 means I can map it as a normal key in emacs. I write lisp (a programming language (with (lots of ((parentheses))))) a lot so I told emacs to generate two parentheses then put the cursor between them when I press F32. Similarly for double quotes and CTRL-F32. Previously I needed to press 3 (well, 4 if you count the modifier) keys for that...

mmmurf3• 18 years ago

this is a great keyboard... i wish i could get one retrofitted onto my laptop... i stopped using it b/c switching back and forth between it and my laptop keyboard was costing about 15 wpm in errors.

rickmb• 18 years ago

In the 20-plus years I've been coding, I never really gave a crap about what keyboard I worked on.

Currently mostly happen to use the new Apple keyboard that came with the iMac. Expected to want to replace it when I first saw it, but it's surprisingly pleasant.

ComputerGuru2• 18 years ago

Has anyone used a DiNovo Edge? I hear it has great tactile feedback, but haven't had the chance to try it out yet.

Morieris• 18 years ago

I have one of those for my home computer, and I think it's great. The short throws on the keys feel nice, and overall it is quite solid. I wouldn't want one at work though, as it lacks a proper numpad. Also, chicks dig it; it's a sexy keyboard. http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/details/US/EN,CRI...

silencio5• 18 years ago

I'm a chick and I dig the way it looks, but there is noooooo way in hell I'd be paying that much for a keyboard :(

voldern• 18 years ago

The good old Keytronic KT800 http://www.le.ac.uk/cc/dsss/docs/kb_kt1.jpg

Tough if you're looking for something more new the Logitech Ultra-Flat keyboards is good to.

axod• 18 years ago

Macbook, or the new Apple wireless keyboard is really nice.

kingnothing• 18 years ago

I've been a fan of Microsoft's ergonomic models for many years now. I don't see that changing any time soon, unless something revolutionary comes along.

dfranke• 18 years ago

Sun Type 6.

hsmyers• 18 years ago

Any OmniKey Ultra from Northgate Computer Systems. Try eBay. Company no longer exists...

gcv• 18 years ago

I use a variety of Apple keyboards, an IBM Model M (wonderful original PS2 model), and an IBM ThinkPad keyboard, depending on which machine I'm using at any given time. All excellent, especially with the Caps Lock key set to Control. All non-Apple and non-ThinkPad laptop keyboards I've seen are horrific, as are all cheap "included with hardware" keyboards from Dell and the like. Stay far away.

PS: Heed the advice above about keeping your wrists straight as you type. Avoid the mouse "flick," where you move your right hand to the mouse on the right (left) of your keyboard and thus flex your wrist slightly to the right (left). In addition, try ordinary and reverse wrist curls with very light dumbbells (<20 lbs each), and do them regularly. Will do wonders to keep RSI at bay.

gtani2• 18 years ago

gc: excellent advice on the curls. other wrist strengtheners

http://www.thinkgeek.com/interests/giftsunder50/6a4b/

(they need to check how many "Gifts Under $50" cost $59.99

and PowerWeb thing (you need one if you've hired Django or Rails devs!) http://www.fitter1.com/Catalog/Category/35/HandWrist.aspx

pepeto• 18 years ago

this is the shit, for less that $1,600 you get lcd's on your buttons :) customizable with Shakespeare on the space bar! Now that is pimp. http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/

samueladam• 18 years ago

I really miss a pointing stick keyboard.

wanorris• 18 years ago

The best keyboard I've every used is my ThinkPad keyboard -- great feedback, everything within easy reach including both pointing devices.

If I ever went back to using a desktop again, I would probably buy one of these, which is a pretty awesome way to get a TrackPoint for your desktop:

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPo...

Zak2• 18 years ago

I recently saw one of those being used in a store at a POS box of some sort. They had removed the trackpoint cap!

andreyf• 18 years ago

Surprised nobody mentioned this: http://datahand.com/products/proii.htm

Never seen one, but heard crazy stories...

scorpioxy• 18 years ago

I got the Microsoft Natural Ergo 4000(did they start with 1?).

I bought that after my wrists started hurting from being bent on a regular keyboard. It takes about a day to get used to it and about 3 for your fingers to get used to the new key placement. But overall, its very comfortable.

maxniederhofer• 18 years ago

Surprised no one is mentioning these

http://www.cherry.de/english/products/keyboards_g81-3000.htm

Simple, timeless, cheap.

Zak2• 18 years ago

I like this variant: http://www.cherry.de/english/products/keyboards_g83-6188_lin...

Ask YC: What's the most hacker-friendly keyboard?

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