Ask HN: Are there any studies about book reading retention rates vs. audiobooks?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16601545

by kspy • 8 years ago

120 61 8 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I commute a lot now and find it much more convenient to listen to a book sometimes. However if it's something non-fiction or technical I understand the value of having a physical copy to be able to grab, or even an ebook to access on screen. Thoughts?

rbur0425• 8 years ago

http://www.danielwillingham.com/daniel-willingham-science-an...

combatentropy• 8 years ago

I was going to write the same thing before even reading this.

The human brain is hardware-accelerated for encoding and decoding spoken language. That's why alphabets often just represent sounds, why it's so easy for even an educated adult to right homophones, and why professional writers still take into consideration sonic properties like rhythm. It's because, like the article says, even while reading silently, you still hear it.

Speech is primary, writing secondary. So sit back, relax, and enjoy it.

mcculley• 8 years ago

Not all of us hear words when reading. I usually don't unless I think about it (like now). I often miss written puns for this reason. I don't know how common this is.

ifoundthetao• 8 years ago

I haven't read any studies. Generally I'll bump up what I'm listening to, to 2x or 3x (if the person speaks slowly enough) so I can get through what they're saying more quickly.

But if it's something that's new to me, or highly technical, I'll follow up with a course, physical book, or create a study out of it in a different manner.

searine• 8 years ago

I find that with audio non-fiction I may gloss over some details but the momentum is better so I read more overall, so there is a net gain.

If I really want to study a subject I will listen to the audiobook, and then re-read it in text form.

anessaiver• 8 years ago

The problem is multifactorial.

There have been studies looking at the relative retention rates of visual vs auditory stimuli where the visual typically comes out ahead:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2667065/ https://scholarworks.iu.edu/journals/index.php/iusburj/artic... http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

However, I would posit that the main reason for this discrepancy is that memory is linked to the level of stimulation, and we typically have developed to place a far higher weighting on our visual systems, not to mention the fact that the visual signal typically has a far higher information content, linking to many existing mental structures.

Once these sort of links are removed, with the stimuli being decontextualized, the two tend to be more similar: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00447078

The problem with audiobooks vs reading is far more constrained, and possibly environmentally determined.

One study found that visual vs auditory retention rates for a short block of text were virtually identical: http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1978-21860-001

But another again shows the superiority of the visual system: http://scholar.utc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1171&cont...

But this was done in a controlled environment where the subjects' full attention was focused on the audio. In such a case, it makes sense that retention rates would be comparable, as the same language centers in the brain are used for processing the input once it is transferred from the appropriate input sense.

The big problem with audiobook retention is that we typically listen to them whilst being involved in other tasks, and there are are a myriad of studies showing that humans are inherently extremely bad multi-taskers, with high task-switching costs even in people who claim to be otherwise.

Aside from just sitting with my eyes closed and listening, I find that retention is maximized with audiobooks when there is a split between System 1 and System 2 activity (ala Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman). If I am doing something like driving, using System 1, my System 2 can be fully focused on the audiobook, until something darts out in the middle of the road and then I end up having to rewind and re-listen to what I missed.

techwizrd• 8 years ago

I don't necessarily know of any studies, but I can offer some "anecdata". In reading, I tend to skim past long descriptions without any action. For example, I would skim past the food description in Brian Jaques' books, the descriptions in Lord of the Rings (such as The Council of Elrond), and lots of minor details in Harry Potter. I've recently been listening to a lot of audiobooks since the free echo deal (that came signed you up for Audible) from Amazong.

I've found that I retain a lot more of the details now that I'm listening through the books and I cannot just skim past "the boring parts". I notice the subtle callbacks to details in earlier stories. I notice the little hints or clues dropped by the author (especially in their choice of words). I think I actually enjoy this more because I get a stronger sense of the "craftsmanship" element.

However, this really requires a good reading so that you can distinguish the different voices, emotions, and details.

iambateman• 8 years ago

I find that at the end of the day, my eyes are ready for a break and audiobooks provide entertainment & insight. My experience indicates that my retention rate for an audiobook is worse even though I listen to more overall content.

That said, I find it valuable to learn how a writer thinks more so than the technical details of each point they're trying to make. Right now I'm on a deep dive for an author...listening to ~100 hours of their material. It is somewhat like listening to 100 hours of their lecture. I learn different things while listening to a lecture than I do when reading.

CryoLogic• 8 years ago

I can't use half the ebook readers because they come jam packed with ads for their app store, browser for distraction, frequent updates and attempt to push other apps on you.

I will stick with my paperback books for retention.

Crespyl• 8 years ago

Have you mostly used Android/Tablet based readers like the Kindle Fire or similar?

I have similar issues with lots of online services for more than just ebooks, but it seems like the e-ink devices (I use a Kobo) tend to be more minimal and focused on simple functionality.

Nothing will replace the smells and sensations of turning a physical page, but a basic e-ink device has made it much easier for me to read far more than I used to be able to (vastly more portable being the biggest improvement).

icebraining• 8 years ago

So use the other half? Why do you need more than one anyway?

gordon_freeman2• 8 years ago

A suggestion for Audiobook: I'd really like to have a start/stop button on UI by pressing which the app automatically captures a note in text format and stores in the cloud under the same Audiobook. I hate to always take manual notes and in process miss out what narrator said during the time I was taking the notes.

MartynX3• 8 years ago

Audible has this feature, works exactly as you describe it.

bosie2• 8 years ago

When did they add the sync feature? I asked the audible support about sync two months ago and they said that the notes are only stored on the device you are using. Indeed i couldn't see it anywhere else and when i switched phones the notes wouldn't sync to the new audible installation.

itwy• 8 years ago

No it doesn't, at least not on their Android version. You may just bookmark the location.

vlaak• 8 years ago

I've listened to a lot of audiobooks over the last several years. I've switched probably 80% of my "reading" time to audio so I can get more content (while driving, cleaning, laundry, etc.).

In my case, retention is much lower for listened content compared to read content. So much so that I now only listen to things which I consider entertainment. For anything technical, or that I'd want to retain longer than a few weeks I read with an actual book.

I hesitate to speak for everyone on this, but I will say that a few friends I've spoken to about it have said they see the same lesser retention in audio content.

gordon_freeman2• 8 years ago

One thing I've noticed is that when I'm listening to Audiobook and doing multitasking (working on computer, driving, etc.), the retention rate is usually very low. But if I am solely relaxing and listening to an Audiobook while not doing anything else then the retention rate tends to be much higher. The good thing with Audiobook is that the narrator can make the experience alive by his/her style of narrating which we would not get with merely reading the book.

Naritai• 8 years ago

I wonder what the retention rate would be if one tried to do laundry while reading a traditional book :)

phhlho• 8 years ago

100% agreed - it even seems to happen to me if the text is older or takes a little more time to process. I listened to an audio copy of Candide while commuting by car and when I reached the end I remember being struck by the fact that I had no idea what had happened!

maxxxxx• 8 years ago

For me the reader makes a huge difference. I have listened to some audiobooks where I really liked the reader and retention was very good. But for a lot of them I agree that reading is better. Even more so for technical stuff where you often stop or even go back.

tinymollusk• 8 years ago

I switched to 90+% audiobook after being an avid reader my whole life. I think my eyes have gotten worse, so physically reading because tiring quickly.

The secret for audiobooks, for me, is to listen to them while walking. Currently doing about 50 miles / week, which gets me through 1-2 audiobooks (1.5x, but I rewind and replay a LOT).

I notice my attention is crucial, and varies depending on interactions while walking. When by myself, not crossing streets (down by the walking areas of my town), I can retain a ton.

YMMV, but for me the sweet spot of information consumption is while walking, so audiobooks + exercise beat reading, hands down.

ams6110• 8 years ago

What about reading along with an audio book?

The only way one of my kids gets through some of the "great literature" he has to read in high school is to listen to it, which I've conceded but on the condition that he follow along in reading the book.

todd8• 8 years ago

I’ve heard the answer to this question somewhere, but now I can’t remember what I heard. :)

More seriously, some of this, to me, depends on what I’m listening to or reading. Fiction or easy non-fiction audio books do allow some degree of multitasking. However this doesn’t apply to 90% of my reading. Technical material is much faster for me to actually read.

For example, I saw an interesting paper recently[1]. It’s results are important and I’m happy to have come across them, but there is no way I could have absorbed it on an audio format without taking much more time.

I read technical material like this faster because I can skim over the things I already know (like why the result is interesting, applications of the idea, complex proof steps, math background material, etc) and I can slow down for the key results I want to remember. I can go back and re-read sentences that don’t make sense to me or where I’m confused.

For technical books there is so much that I don’t usually have to learn again, I can just skip to the new stuff.

[1] The Power of Two Choices in Randomized Load Balancing, https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=504343

tristanho• 8 years ago

Audiobooks certainly feel like they have much worse retention. To solve this, whenever I listen to an audiobook now, I'll both buy it on Audible and on Kindle. Then, whenever I hear something particularly compelling/important, I quickly hop into the Kindle app on my phone and highlight it. If a book has whispersync[0] enabled this is especially easy.

This, combined with having a workflow for consistently reviewing my highlights[1] has improved my (admittedly self-reported) retention significantly. There's plenty of science that supports how effective spaced repetition is for retention.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000827...

[1] https://readwise.io -- disclaimer: I built this, but I genuinely think it's helpful here.

winkywooster• 8 years ago

This is what I do. I also will read the Kindle portion of book when I can, only listening to audio when I'm in the car or doing something with my hands. I'm also a heavy user of "skip back 30 secs" (the back button on my truck's steering column does this out of the box). If I find my thoughts wandering, I will skip back to a portion I remember, and listen again. If I find myself skipping back a lot, I'll listen to something else.

In my personal experience, audio has a lower retention rate compared to reading. However, you can train yourself to do better. The benefit is I can listen at 2x, and get a lot books in during my commute.

Immortalin• 8 years ago

Shameless Plug: https://auditus.cc

You can easily convert a couple and run some A/B tests

juvoni2• 8 years ago

I've done some personal "A/B" testing on audio vs print for retention and found that I remember significantly less when listening to non-fiction content as opposed to reading it and the recall dropoff is very sharp.

I mainly use audiobooks now for mostly fiction and narrative strong content like history, biographies/memories, or communication around domains like sales, public speaking, marketing, and relationship books.

I found a lot more interesting things about being more strategical in using the right medium(print vs ebook vs audio) depending on the nature of the content I'm consuming as well as my energy levels[1].

[1] https://juvoni.com/print-ebook-audiobook

chc• 8 years ago

Did you actually listen under the same circumstances you would have read? For example, you wouldn't visually read a book while folding clothes. I suspect some of the lower recall with audiobooks is because people listen to them in situations where they wouldn't be able to read a physical book at all.

juvoni2• 8 years ago

I do admit that around half of the circumstances where I was listening to audiobooks I was multitasking or in a situation or environment where a physical book would be more difficult, but some situations were focused listening as well and strong narrative content usually persisted better in memory.

Most frequent contexts were: - Cooking - Working out - Airplane - Subway Rides (If the train is too crowded to read I'll switch to listening to an audiobook) - Walking Places - Focused listening before bed

hyencomper• 8 years ago

A study has shown that the mind tends to wander more when listening to audiobooks compared to reading. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2013.0089... Personally, I only listen to audiobooks while cleaning or driving, and so retain much lesser than when I read, which is when I am completely engrossed in the material.

russelluresti• 8 years ago

http://jass.neuro.wisc.edu/2013/01/Group%203.Udomon.Final%20... - "An analysis of the test scores also indicates that visual stimulation is more effective than audio stimuli at achieving higher memory retention and recall (with a p-value < .05). "

http://www.youngscientist.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/... - "From the results, it was concluded that visual information is recalled the most effectively, followed by audio/visual and then audio information."

From my understanding, listening and reading activate the brain in different ways. Listening also takes a higher effort to turn information into memory. It seems that if you're practiced at information processing through listening (e.g. you've listened to a lot of audiobooks or are a practiced storyteller) then there's less of a difference.

Part of me thinks that reading leads to better comprehension and information recall because it's very easy to re-read a sentence versus rewinding audio. Anecdotally, I know I've been in a scenario where I was reading the end of a paragraph and realized I had stopped paying attention and was quickly able to go back and re-read it.

dntrkv• 8 years ago

One of my favorite features of Audible is the ability to rewind in 30 second segments. Very often I'll be listening to an audiobook and realize that I stopped paying attention, hitting the rewind button a couple times makes it super easy to get back to where you last payed attention.

surprisetalk• 8 years ago

When that happens to me, it's a sign that I'm listening at a rate that's either too slow or too fast.

I highly recommend speeding/slowing your audiobooks to the perfect point where your mind doesn't wander.

matthewmcg• 8 years ago

I jump back and forth between Kindle and Audible versions of the same book frequently. Like others, I find that retention seems lower for audiobooks, usually because I am doing something (driving, walking, chores) when listening.

I do, however, find strong associations between certain book passages and the places where I was when I heard them. Particular road trips are inextricably linked to particular books and vice versa.

rripken• 8 years ago

I used to listen to lots of audiobooks b/c I had a long commute and I definitely agree that places get tied to specific passages. I believe it works both ways - re-reading books can sometimes make me remember the places and revisiting the places can remind me of the book that was playing. I'm now in Grad School and frequently listen to lectures during the drive. It makes test-taking interesting b/c some test questions cause me to think about geographic locations and then thinking about nearby geographic locations can sometimes remind me of the parts of the lecture that preceded or followed the material. Its the commuter's version of "Method of Loci".

nickjj2• 8 years ago

A lot of people are saying audio books have less retention (which may be true), but are you accounting for what you're doing while listening to them?

For example, if you read a book, chances are you're 100% focused on the book, probably sitting or laying down in a quiet room.

On the other hand while listening to an audio book you might be driving, running errands or cleaning. Most of that is probably on auto-pilot but I have to imagine trying to multi-task whatever you're doing while absorbing content is going to cause a huge hit to retention.

I think it's worth exploring the above because I find that other than first hand experience I learn best by watching videos. It could be someone talking into a camera, or just slides, but in both cases I feel like I retain information better than just reading. However in this case, I'm also 100% focused on the task as if I were reading. Most of those videos could have just audio and it's basically the same thing (comparable to audio books).

michaericalribo• 8 years ago

Nice point about distractions. We also have a LOT more practice learning and retaining by reading than we do by listening.

nickjj2• 8 years ago

I'm not so sure about that.

Maybe it's different outside of the US but in the US, most of the time you have a teacher talking to a bunch of students with a blackboard. This goes from about age 6 to 18.

Learning is very much audio driven, and text books were used as supplements (and for homework).

DanielleMolloy• 8 years ago

Overall my retention is currently higher for audiobooks just because I get through them much faster in comparison to physical copies. Also, I’m more likely to finish them - I will listen through boring sections, due to which I would probably put the physical book aside.

I can not imagine listening to technical books though (popular science seems to be fine, I’m listening to Walter Isaacson’s Einstein biography right now), the reader must be a fit (Stephen Fry is gorgeous); and I can only use the times when my head is not engaged otherwise (commuting, groceries, food, housework).

To those unaware: Spotify has a huge audiobook collection now. I wish they would add increasing playback speed as a feature, if readers are too slow my thoughts will wander. I also have an Audible subscription, they have a quite convincing library now.

wink• 8 years ago

I'm pretty sure the study would point out that there are two groups of people, for each of which the one medium is vastly better ;)

Source: anecdotal evidence

unbearded• 8 years ago

I'm not aware of any study, but having listened to over a hundred audiobooks on the last few years, I would like to share my experience while listing to non-fiction.

My experience is that retention depends mainly on two factors: the amount of attention and quality of the reader. I prefer when the author is the one reading because many of them add comments and a special "energy" to the book.

I find the "car mode" on Audible very convenient to add bookmarks without disruption while I'm driving and I use at the gym as well.

Some books that I want to reference later I buy a paper-copy and mark with a highlighter on the same places I bookmarked on the Audible App.

While listening, the faster I play, the more attention I pay. I start at 2X and if I'm listening to the audiobook a second time, I can go up to 3X. 1X and 1.5X are for engaging parts or when I can't understand what is being said.

One thing I don't do is: listen while not able to pay attention. While dring it can be while going through a toll or navigating through unfamiliar streets.

With all said, the feature that I think is the most useful for retention is the Pause button. This way I can reflect on what I just heard and save the information on my brain's long-term storage.

rushi_agrawal2• 8 years ago

I've had an instance where the author was reading his book himself, and his accent was so difficult that only then I started to realize the effort professional readers must have put into to make the book listenable. Had to read that book at .9X to be able to follow it.

nottorp• 8 years ago

Define "retention". Do you want to be able to parrot it, or understand it?

contingencies• 8 years ago

Random suggestion: how about listening and taking notes?

WheelsAtLarge2• 8 years ago

Yes, this will help. But how many people will do it since many people listen to books so they can multitask?

baby2• 8 years ago

People in this thread are talking about listening to audiobook while driving and I find that distressing as a pedestrian. Can’t wait for mandatory self-driving cars.

matte_black• 8 years ago

You can do a lot worse than listening to an audiobook while driving.

baby2• 8 years ago

Still, when people are driving next to me I wish they would focus fully on the road. More than a hundred people die every day in the US from traffic accident, it's far from nothing.

KVFinn• 8 years ago

Personally, for fiction, my retention is higher in audio form because it forces me to read slower. I have a bad habit of getting into a speed-reading mode otherwise where I think I'm retaining everything but I'm actually skipping over details.

I've found books that I thought were mediocre were much better as audiobooks because the pace forced me to really listen to and appreciate the quality of the prose.

I do agree that more technical material is more awkward in audio form and really benefits from being able to flip back and forth for reference in a real book.

WheelsAtLarge2• 8 years ago

There's a theory in memory research that says that you need to focus or at least notice an idea or thing before you can remember it. Example: given a picture, few people will be able to completely describe it but you'll be able to describe those areas you focused on or caught your attention.

We think that we remember everything we see or hear but that's impossible since in order to remember the data first has to be detected and it has to go through short-term memory before it can be stored in long-term memory. Short-term memory can hold about 7 items at one time. Also, our memory's nature is to forget unless it's important.

So given the above, it's impossible to retain much of what we hear vs reading. We get the illusion that we are capturing everything we hear but we are not. We capture what we think is important but it's going by so fast that it's just bits and pieces with our minds filling in the blanks. Basically, what audio is doing is keeping our minds busy.

So if you want to get the basic idea of a book you listen to it. If you want to retain the most of it you read and you try to recall what you just read.

staunch• 8 years ago

Repetition is the secret to audio or visual learning, at least for me.

If I like an audiobook/podcast/documentary/movie, I'll listen/watch it multiple times. I've listened to my very favorite stuff dozens and even hundreds of times, so I know the content extremely well.

FullMtlAlcoholc• 8 years ago

For me, it depends on whether I'm listening to a fiction or non-fiction book (also, the ability of the narrator to draw me in is key). I was completely immersed in the audio version of the Three Body Problem and wager that I could recall it better than if I had read it.

As for non-fiction, the last book I tried to listen to is Behave by Robert Sapolsky. Although the narration is good, I simply cannot retain the names of the various brain structures and their function. After listening to a chapter for the 3rd time, I just gave up and decided to purchase the text version.

If someone is painting a picture for me, so to speak, as in narrative fiction, I feel it makes a stronger impression than actually reading the material. But if I'm trying to learn something, I frequently need to pause what I'm taking in, usually to build a mental model.

sadiqyanju• 8 years ago

15 percent for physical books i.e I have to read it 5 times to pass a an undergraduate level exam with an A grade, 20 percent for audio about four times spaced repetition for the A grade and 25 percent for video. I passed PMI-PMP just watching videos on my first attempt.

lordkrandel• 8 years ago

I think you need better questions instead of a direct answer and here were my 2 cents. Funny how people here think about A/B testing before they actually try to put an hypotesis behind the fact. As an average guy, I'd say that remembering things you've just listened to is very harder, except for people who have non-standard memory qualities. In ancient Greece, Epic saga started to be written to ensure the story wouldn't change through time. There's not only memorization involved, but also understanding and the ability to refer to someone else what you've learned. Have you ever tried as a child that game in which you have to pass a message through a number of mates by whispering it in their ear? It's disastrous and you don't even have to memorize it. Hammurabi has started writing laws for the same need of reference. And yet? In ancient times nothing was written, and people had to learn long codes and rhymes by heart and were requested to remember that for a lifetime. And it was easier: they exercised the skill a lot. Their attention span was linear, more focused, more trained. Did you actually learn logarithmic tables by heart? State capitals? We live in times that don't really promote retention in favour of linking concepts and knowing where to search the written information at speed, just because the lack of exercise has taken away our trust in our own memory. So I don't really think that the medium is important, it's the fit. Do you want a soothing voice telling you the beauty of an imaginary landscape? Or to give voice to a particular character from a book which matters to you? Or are you reading a technical reference book? Are you studying for repetition? Does voiced emphasis give you a stronger hook on sentences? Are you reading or listening to a book about public speaking? I remember prayers from my catholic days which I learned by heart in church without even reading them once - because I remember the rhythm and that kind of song they used to make you better memorize it. Still reminds me of Homer and ancient Greek times. What do you think?

rushi_agrawal2• 8 years ago

I'm continuously listening to audiobooks while commuting since last couple of years or so. To increase retention, I've done a few things which have helped (I don't have enough time to go through the physical book or ebook though I tried it a few times, so can't comment on comparison there):

1. Driving slowly, so as to still have safety as the most important priority, and so that you miss lesser moments when you have to take your mind away from listening and to the things happening on the road (talking about Bangalore's i.e. India's traffic here). The slight gain in commute time (I think it should be around 10% and definitely not more than 20%) is completely worth it. This actually made my driving safer in general too.

2. I have a 'repeat last 30 seconds' functionality at my fingertips. You'll invariably miss a portion after which (sometimes) the story will stop making sense. The attitude which worked for me here is, it's okay to spend a lot more time to re-listen a part multiple times, than to let laziness take over by thinking it's anyway an unimportant portion and okay to miss.

3. Take out 5-10 minutes after a commute is done, to write notes about what I thought are important learnings and should not be forgotten with time. I believe if the goal is to not let the commute time go waste, then this notes-writing time is also a part of it, without which your learning is incomplete. This is way better than only remembering something like <2-5% of the book after a year. I use Microsoft OneNote (this trumped over using Vim because I can edit/read my notes while on the go without a laptop). One area of improvement is, I need some way to _remind_ myself to read those notes :)

4. Forcing myself to re-listen books which I found too useful to let my mind forget in any way, instead of jumping over to that next interesting book. I read mostly non-fiction books of a specific category (scientific-study-oriented books about humans, their interactions, behaviour and their flaws). Forcing re-learning is partly due to the fact that after a time I thought I'm reading less important books (i.e. I'm running out of extremely good books in this area), and partly due to forgetting to transfer that new book to my phone to listen.

5. I've lately realized that cramming all your free time to reading/learning is not helpful too. You should have a reasonable time to 'ruminate' in the day, each day, i.e. time when you're doing nothing (social network, news, sports, or any screen-time in general, doesn't count)

Feel free to ask questions. Also, feel free to provide suggestions and book recommendations. I'm all ears :)

johnsimer• 8 years ago

I use memory palaces for audio books, and can get 80% retention for the first few days, without review

vinchuco• 8 years ago

Learning: Deliberate practice, active recall, and spaced repetition.

cyberprunes• 8 years ago

In my view, audiobooks are a complete waste of time for retaining information unless you are highly engaged and not distracted. The droves of multitaskers that "mind hack / life hack" themselves by listening to audiobooks at 2x+ speeds while "getting shit done" are deluding themselves and descending into stupidity. Read, god dammit! Read! You have to read deeply and deliberately. Seriously, audio books are a good supplement but not a replacement. You cannot be educated "on the go" with audio books. Anything worth learning will demand your full attention. That's my opinion.

Ask HN: Are there any studies about book reading retention rates vs. audiobooks?

Related Stories