iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/10/ios-11s-misleading-ish-setting-bluetooth-and-wi-fi-bad-user-security

by panarky • 9 years ago

543 329 9 years ago

eff.org

kevin_thibedeau• 9 years ago

As opposed to Google's dark patterns that make maps unusable with location tracking off.

mannykannot• 9 years ago

No, not "as opposed to." This is a completely bogus line of argument, even if the "opposing" behavior is equally bad.

panarky2• 9 years ago

Google Maps is perfectly usable with location turned off. I often use it this way just to stretch the battery.

dingo_bat• 9 years ago

He means location tracking, not location. If you turn off location tracking in settings, maps will keep bugging you. Even though it just needs location at that time and it is enabled, but you must allow Google to create a fucking timeline of you all the time otherwise maps will keep nagging you.

paloaltokid• 9 years ago

Yes, this was a big surprise in iOS 11. I can understand the appeal of making it work this way, but I wish it was implemented as a parallel set of options. Or at least make it configurable in settings of how it should work.

I feel the same way about the "Do Not Disturb While Driving" feature. I like the feature a lot, and I've been using it, but I wish it was a parallel feature as well. My "Do Not Disturb" patterns are different in the car from when I'm not and I'd like to be able to configure it as such.

zwily• 9 years ago

I wish the “Do Not Disturb While Driving” would re-enable itself after the car starts moving again. I lie and tell it I’m not driving all the time at a light to select the next podcast.

lucaspiller2• 9 years ago

Yeah this is a bit of a weird feature. I understand it’s a kind of mental barrier to prevent you using your phone while driving, but it’s weird you can’t keep it on and still use your phone - especially when you aren’t moving as you say.

UnoriginalGuy2• 9 years ago

Well this finally explains why Bluetooth kept re-enabling itself seemingly at random after I turned it off in iOS 11...

I agree with the EFF on this one, at no time was any of how this works communicated, particularly not the "turns back on at 5 am" quirk. These features aren't inherently bad, but lack of communication is bad.

MBCook8• 9 years ago

See my other post in this thread, it is communicated.

It’s definitely settle. But it is there.

jackvalentine4• 9 years ago

If that counts as communicating changes, it seems a bit Hitchhiker's to me. No user should be expected to notice and figure out the changed behavior for something they do that takes half a second, based on that 'communication'.

“But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

Terretta• 9 years ago

In an attempt to keep you connected to Apple devices and services, iOS 11 compromises users' security.

No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan. (And the very real frustration when things don’t work they expect to work, and they don’t know why.)

Meanwhile, the security motivated user will figure out she can 3D Touch or go into settings and meet her more sophisticated use cases.

Consider the normal user’s scenarios and do the math. This saves more users from more loss.

codefined• 9 years ago

This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever. The fact that I can upgrade and have no idea the behaviour unless I happen to read an EFF blogpost in the few hours it appears on HN isn't acceptable.

Note how they even use privacy as one of the main (at least, in my opinion) selling point for Apple devices[0] ("Every Apple product is designed from the ground up to protect that information.").

[0] https://www.apple.com/uk/privacy/

MBCook8• 9 years ago

It IS communicated.

If you just pull up control center and tap the button is says “Disconnected from ‘WiFiNetwork’”.

If you expand the panel with 3D Touch or a long press under the WiFi icon it either says WiFiName or Not Connected.

On the other hand the cellular radio says Off if you toggle it.

This isn’t completely hidden. The information is there. And I agree with the other posters that this is a far better setting considering how many people have run up ridiculous cellular bills because of bad Wi-Fi and forgetting about the setting.

At this point I’m not sure there’s a need for normal users to actually turn off Wi-Fi. The only real case would be something like airplane mode which already has its own setting.

coldtea• 9 years ago

This change would be absolutely fine to me if it were communicated to the user in any way whatsoever.

Well, there IS a strike-over in the icon when you fully disable wifi.

throw2016• 9 years ago

This is so unlike Apple. If there is a 'state' between on and off it should be visually explicit. No one can reasonably argue otherwise.

And since a state between on and off is not intuitive and cannot be imagined out of the blue by end users, the onus is on the implementing party to leave no room for confusion. The current vagueness with the control has no logical explanation.

kazinator• 9 years ago

Or it's a jab at the competition.

"So Android spontaneously turns your Wi-Fi off? How silly. Why, you know what? Ours will spontaneously turn on, take that!!"

panarky2• 9 years ago

No.

Yes.

It's not just because people forget to turn Wi-Fi back on.

Radios are "off-ish" because they remain on for other Apple devices and services, but off for other uses.

What actually happens in iOS 11 when you toggle your quick settings to "off" is that the phone will disconnect from Wi-Fi networks and some devices, but remain on for Apple services.

Location Services is still enabled, Apple devices (like Apple Watch and Pencil) stay connected, and services such as Handoff and Instant Hotspot stay on.

heartbreak• 9 years ago

I disconnect from Bluetooth daily because my TV soundbar or wife’s car in the driveway picks up my audio output. I’ve never intended that action to disconnect my Apple Watch. iOS 11 is an improvement for me in that regard.

blub4• 9 years ago

I don't have any other Apple devices. And no, long pressing and toggling is not disabling it on < 6s.

I think they just fucked up.

dx0346• 9 years ago

Yes.

HN audience doesn't represent the typical iphone user. The typical iphone user appreciates privacy but is less concerned about transmitting devices than about the phone bill. I'm sure there are people who always remember switching wifi back on (or have a true unlimited contract) but most (including me) are not part of that. I see why this feature can be viewed as critical but think it'll be an improvement for the vast majority of users.

Ideally, they would've provided a switch in the settings to allow iOS10 behaviour. Maybe they'll bring that with a later version.

jackvalentine4• 9 years ago

It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan

Is there a source for this, or is this your opinion?

davb2• 9 years ago

It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan.

Is the solution here not simply to turn off mobile data when you don’t want to use it, if you’re on such a restrictive mobile plan?

The fact is, the behaviour changed in a way that wasn’t made clear at all. That WiFi will reconnect by itself after being off for a period is a security and privacy issue, and is a frustrating change.

Hiding things behind 3D Touch is not very intuitive or user friendly. What was once a toggle - on or off - is now a three state option where one of the stares can only be accessed from the settings app.

servilio• 9 years ago

Is the solution here not simply to turn off mobile data when you don’t want to use it, if you’re on such a restrictive mobile plan?

Or add warning and cut-off thresholds, isn't that alredy possible?

new2993• 9 years ago

I just spent a couple of minutes trying to 3D touch to properly disable wifi, then googling how to do this with 3d touch and came up empty.

Either it doesn't work that way, or it's well hidden and appears not great in terms of UX.

Overall, I agree with you though. I'm personally not clear on the utility of turning off just wifi or just bluetooth. I assume (hope) airplane mode turns everything off. But in any other scenario you're still leaking location and other information.

mattacular• 9 years ago

There is no way to 3D touch the bluetooth and wireless radios all the way off in iOS11. You have to manually go all the way into settings.app now which takes quite a bit more effort not to mention longer than the old control center

firloop• 9 years ago

I don't believe there's any way to turn off the wifi from Control Center, even with 3D touch. You must flip the toggle in Settings (TFA seems to say the same thing). Happy to be wrong here, I just couldn't figure it out while fiddling with it.

lnguyen• 9 years ago

You can turn on Airplane Mode then turn back on the services you want (except cellular data)

odammit• 9 years ago

Is that really a concern anymore? (Anecdote alert) I roll over several gigs a month that I don’t use ...

This feature has been driving me NUTS because I’m surround by about a 1000 google Starbucks and TCWifi hotspots at home and at work and I connect to them magically and suddenly my phone stops working because I haven’t logged into their service.

colejohnson663• 9 years ago

Go to the Wi-Fi submenu in the Settings, tap the chevron on the Starbucks network and tap “Forget this network”

clouddrover7• 9 years ago

resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi

The way I've run every smartphone I've owned is to turn off mobile data, WiFi, and Bluetooth and only turn them on as and when I need them. I prefer it to work that way.

The way this works in iOS 11 is now inconsistent and confusing. I can turn mobile data on and off via Control Centre. But, while I can turn WiFi on in Control Centre, I can't turn it off again. The mobile data icon in Control Centre has two states: highlighted for on and non-highlighted for off. The WiFi icon in Control Centre has three states: highlighted for on, non-highlighted for disconnected, and non-highlighted with a line through it for off. For consistency the mobile data icon should also have a line through it.

I can turn WiFi off via Settings, but doing it this way is slower and clumsier than it used to be in iOS 10. As a workaround, I've added Settings to my phone's taskbar. Force pressing the Settings icon pops up a menu which lets you get to the WiFi settings directly.

wildmusings• 9 years ago

The way I've run every smartphone I've owned is to turn off mobile data, WiFi, and Bluetooth and only turn them on as and when I need them

Okay, but you have to accept that this is a ridiculously small minority use case.

othersideofcoin• 9 years ago

Ya, so accept that Apple decided your hyper aware use case doesn't need to be the default. Seems like you know what is up, so they are working to prevent unnecessary charges to the far larger, far less aware segment of the population. All seems good, no?

josteink8• 9 years ago

The way this works in iOS 11 is now inconsistent and confusing

I really don't see how the apologists can deny this.

In iOS every UI control to toggle something on or off toggles things on or off... They all have the same UI presentation, and shows the same affordances, leading the user to expect the same behaviour.

And that they have. Everywhere except for wifi. Who in their right mind though this was a good idea?

How is it possible to argue this inconsistency is not a source of confusion?

I can't wait for my next flight, to hear how the in-flight personnel are going to explain this to Apple users.

"If you have electrical equipment with a radio transmitter, please turn it off now. If you have a Note 8, please let us know now, so we won't have to call the bomb-squad. And lastly if you have an wifi-only iPad running iOS 11, please make sure you turn wifi off using the special settings app because flight-mode doesn't work".

This is getting ridiculous. I bet the airliners are really happy about this change.

underwater• 9 years ago

I don't understand why they don't just fix that specific problem.

jonahx4• 9 years ago

No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money...

Naked apologism. So unthoughtful, and delivered with such a righteous tone.

If this was their intention, they could have implemented the feature honestly, informing users about what was happening, and offering a clear choice, such as an immediate popup, between "turn off for this location" and "turn off completely." That would have been fine.

But the existence of this "pro" to the deceptive and confusing behavior does not justify it.

IBM5• 9 years ago

They did inform users.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086

morganvachon6• 9 years ago

"offering the option to actually turn the services off."

I'm not getting into the rest of your discussion, but I think you completely missed that you can indeed actually turn them off via 3D touch. Even on non-3D touch devices like the iPad mini, you can get to the "actually off" toggles by long-pressing the icons. Sure, it's somewhat of an extra step, but it's misleading to claim that the option doesn't exist when it clearly does.

beedogs2• 9 years ago

Naked apologism. So unthoughtful, and delivered with such a righteous tone.

And, of course, voted up to the very top of the comments section here, as usual. The Apple apologists here are a bit of a plague.

794CD01• 9 years ago

Prompting the user every time for a nuance they likely don't understand instead of just doing the thing they want 99% of the time is bad UX.

donohoe• 9 years ago

No. It’s not.

I want to turn it off.

The fact that this is front-page on HN means something.

Karunamon• 9 years ago

It means that the minority of techies that read HN found it interesting. There’s nothing to suggest any conclusion broader than that.

Sniffnoy• 9 years ago

Question: Is there some reason the phone can't have some mode where it automatically determines which of mobile data or WiFi is providing the better connection at the moment, rather than having to manually toggle WiFi on and off as using the internet becomes frustrating?

dx0346• 9 years ago

It does (wifi assist for example) but until the phone has established if the connection works or not, the user already switched it off. When I leave the house I get ~10 sec with wifi but no actual connection. That's long enough for me to notice it but probably not enough for the iphone to detect if Wifi is really not available.

siculars• 9 years ago

That’s straight garbage town. There are other ways to remind users that their WiFi is off than tricking users into thinking it is off when it really isn’t. Standard “engineers know best” mentality. Off means off. As in the opposite of on. This nonsense feeds into people (rightful) distrust of technology.

lathiat2• 9 years ago

I'm a generally well educated person in both security, radios, etc. I can tell you that the control Centre Wi-Fi is basically always used by me to disconnect from the current network. And it persistently infuriated me when I would later forget and was on mobile data.

I can also see users frequently being confused by things like their Apple Pencil not working.

I love this change. You can still turn it off properly in settings. I generally trust Apple with frequent and speedy security updates. Their security track record is industry leading. I'm not remotely concerned.

Also most of the time people tell me they want this option they really mean they want to save battery life. I'd suggest just using low power mode for that, it's what it's designed for.

astronautjones• 9 years ago

This is such a backwards approach to security in an age where the average user is only less and less informed

AlfeG• 9 years ago

Windows phones has ability to turn off for a hour/2/4 . Really miss this thing on android

beedogs2• 9 years ago

The security motivated user probably wouldn't be using an iPhone in the first place. Or any smartphone for that matter.

mtgx4• 9 years ago

Apparently the "security motivated" have to discover when Apple has completely changed how their apps and settings work, too.

Are the "security motivated" also expected to know if iMessage or FaceTime stopped using end-to-end encryption, too?

These things should be communicated. Also, all Apple had to do was make it a 3-toggle button instead of a 2-toggle one. Just keep the normal way of turning-off Wi-Fi and add a new one for Disconnect Wi-Fi, too. Nothing could be simpler. But no, Apple has to be "courageous" in pissing off a large portion of their users each time they do something, rather than implementing a UX change as simple as that without disturbing well learned UX behaviors for their users.

dx0346• 9 years ago

It was communicated, Apple has a page on that. It just wasn't a big part of the announcement. And the tech press covered it well enough so that it's hard to argue that users didn't know about it (at least those who are interested).

golangnews3• 9 years ago

You can't use 3D touch to turn off wifi. According to Apple you have go into settings to do so.

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208086

The problems with this change are:

It is surprising - grey buttons usually mean disabled permanently, not disabled except for some uses or for some indeterminate length of time.

It changes established behaviour without a clear warning to the user.

It is inconsistent - disabling bluetooth now disconnects from all devices (except Apple ones!), and it says 'Not Connected' when it is in fact connected to an Apple Watch say.

It is inconsistent - other buttons like airplane mode or mobile data do turn off permanently.

It's not a huge deal and everyone will adapt, but you shouldn't be apologising for Apple here - this was badly done and not well thought out.

lloeki2• 9 years ago

You can't use 3D touch to turn off wifi. According to Apple you have go into settings to do so.

Indeed, the detailed block of controls does not present the three possible states to the user. In the same zoomed in block, the Airdrop toggle does. Conversely, going to Settings is binary and allows only for On/Off, not that very practical Disconnect state. The difference between Off and Disconnected is a light bar across the icon, which is inconsistently not the case for the Off state of Mobile Data and Airplane mode.

The "dumbed down" UI concerns are valid, yet the intersection between security minded folks that will proactively act to disable WiFi/BT upon a security advisory and the ones who won’t know the difference between the two ways to toggle that is close to zero. To me it looks like people are up in arms without even defining the personas and threat models. Get real, this feature is downright awesome and the slight UI hiccup is certainly no ShellShock.

lumisota• 9 years ago

You can 3D Touch the Settings icon to jump to the WiFi settings.

madeofpalk4• 9 years ago

It is inconsistent - disabling bluetooth now disconnects from all devices (except Apple ones!)

I was surprised by this, so I just tested it. Tapping the button immediately disconnected from my Apple bluetooth AirPods.

helloindia• 9 years ago

For users with flakey wifi, there is wifi-assist, where the phone uses cellular data along with wifi.

amigoingtodie2• 9 years ago

So, is this a US only feature?

Is excess data usage severely penalized financially in other countries?

jaclaz• 9 years ago

Is excess data usage severely penalized financially in other countries?

I believe it depends on ISP and on specific plan.

My mom has an iPad with a limited to 3 Gb/month dataplan (Italy), a couple of times she managed to go beyond the limit (due to some updates she did when not Wi-Fi connected), since it is a sort of pre-paid account, what happened was that the device became slow as molasses, as bandwidth was reduced to the speed of an analogic modem or something like that.

She still had connection, but to access a web page it took like 3 minutes.

On the other hand, she changed phone from a "normal" phone to a "smart" Android one (she was totally unaware of this and didn't realize that the cellular data was on) but her SIM (also pre-paid) did have an on-demand dataplan (never used before on the old phone), very, very costly and she managed to burn 30 out of 50 € of credit in a couple days (without using the internet at all, just through the "pings" (or whatever) the Android did in background).

abricot• 9 years ago

In Denmark, what happens when you reach the limit (on private plans[1]) is that your speed is limited to something between 64-256kbit/sec depending on the provider. You will never be financially penalized for going over.

What is also true, however, is that most basic plans include between 10 and 20 GB of data. You have a really bad plan if you only get 3 GB.

[1]The rules are a bit different for company plans.

misnome• 9 years ago

No. It is in an attempt to resolve the real loss of money experienced by everyday users who turn off WiFi when it’s flakey and then forget to turn it back on, costing them cash on their cellular data plan

This. I read this EFF list of "Terrible things" and thought "neat!" for every single one of these items.

The nearly 100% use cases for me turning wifi 'off' is because whatever it's connected to is slow/unresponsive, or some really annoying auto-connection to a pay-wifi in the location I'm currently in. My cell connection is normally good, so sometimes it's days before I notice, or when I get a message telling me that I've used up my allowance, or try to connect to the hotspot/talk to other devices at home.

With iOS 11, without reading these complaints, I'd probably never have noticed that this problem had silently solved itself and stopped annoying me.

darklajid• 9 years ago

50 (SG, less than USD) dollars. 24 GB of data.

Can we make sure that we're talking about the same thing? Can we compare global data prices? What are you basing your assumption on?

Talking about assumptions: My assumption is that people that buy a recent/new iPhone either

a) get it with a (reasonably sized) contract and have enough data

b) have a bit of disposable income to pay for data for all these places where you might need it

Another fun assumption: Basically ~nowhere~ (not true ofc, but we're both generalizing) in Germany you have hotspots or free wifi. Why would a phone need constant wifi, if you only ever connect it at home, mayyyyyybe at work?

andrewingram• 9 years ago

Ironically, the UI they added for hotspots (which has a similar off-ish setting) actually cost me money, and resulted in several days without internet.

Essentially, i've left tethering on more times accidentally than ever before since upgrading to iOS 11, and used up my entire data allowance without realising it.

vasundhar• 9 years ago

Shouldn't a company focus on Security of Normal users ? because advanced ones know to take care of it

graeme• 9 years ago

Iphone se doesn’t have 3d touch. So there’s no way to change this quickly on those devices.

quotha• 9 years ago

There is no normal user. I've got unlimited LTE data and leave WiFi off PERMANENTLY. I'm still on iOS 10.

rileytg• 9 years ago

my airpods disconnect when i turn bluetooth off from control center. very weird that’s not an exception...

freehunter• 9 years ago

So Bluetooth devices disconnect when you hit the button to disconnect Bluetooth devices?

vacri3• 9 years ago

From The Fine Article:

Location Services is still enabled, Apple devices (like Apple Watch and Pencil) stay connected, and services such as Handoff and Instant Hotspot stay on.
The only way to turn off the Wi-Fi and Bluetooth radios...

The GP is right that it's weird that Apple Watch stays connected when you ask for a disconnect, but Apple Earbuds do not.

TFA wasn't only talking about the wifi radio.

syncsynchalt• 9 years ago

They're bluetooth devices. I'm not sure what your expectation is?

CodeWriter233• 9 years ago

I would expect BT devices to be turned off. BUT Apple’s rationale for faux turning off in control center is so they can maintain Apple services, so I would expect EarPods to stay on under their new ridiculous regime of “Off means On”.

Operyl• 9 years ago

They probably made this exception because unlike the pencil or watch, this is something that “takes control” of a system component (your audio output). It likely made more sense to disconnect them in this case.

api_or_ipa• 9 years ago

Not sure if this is new in the ios world, but I discovered this 'feature' in Android years ago. Turns out Beacon Requests are very important to location services, especially where gps doesn't work (like in any indoor location).

Perceptes• 9 years ago

This has bugged me too since upgrading to iOS 11. I understand the motivation for the change, but it was not necessary to make the UI misleading. It should very clearly indicate between "off" and "off-ish," and allow switching to a true off state, perhaps by long-pressing the icon to get additional options, like how several other control center panels work.

MBCook8• 9 years ago

The messages the display at the top of the screen when you tap the icons were the labels below the icons if you expand the panel clearly show whether the radios are off or just disconnected.

joombaga• 9 years ago

The message says "disconnected", it doesn't say anything about the power state. If I didn't know, it wouldn't occur to me that "off" and "disconnected" are distinct states, especially since this differs from the previous behavior of the same button.

hesarenu2• 9 years ago

If you are explaining too much then it would mean that its not communicated properly.

josteink8• 9 years ago

clearly show whether the radios are off or just disconnected.

I guess you and most of the rest of the planet have very different opinion about what "clearly" means then, otherwise we woulnd't be having this discussion now.

Ensorceled5• 9 years ago

There is a rule in UX Design that if you have to explain the UX to people it’s a bad UX.

userbinator• 9 years ago

In other words, the WiFi actually has 3 states: Off, Idle/disassociated/disconnected, and Connected/Associated. Most people have experienced all 3 states, but it seems Apple is under the impression that users are too stupid to know the difference between them...

The Wi-Fi will turn back full-on if you drive or walk to a new location. And both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth will turn back on at 5:00 AM. This is not clearly explained to users, nor left to them to choose, which makes security-aware users vulnerable as well.

Why 5:00 AM, and why only WiFi when location changes (and how far must the location change? That is not mentioned even on the Apple support page)? This set of conditions reminds me of the decisions taken by aircraft automation systems --- read how the Boeing autothrottle works, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autothrottle#Usage

Of course, the majority of iOS users have nowhere near that ability to memorise how this "automatic wireless control" works, so Apple doesn't bother to make the explanation prominent; which brings me to the next point: Apple products aren't designed for you. They're designed for the user Apple wants, and by not giving any choices to change the behaviour, Apple is gradually "creating an average user" by forcing them into compliance and causing the rest to a different platform.

To continue the analogy, Apple's design has all the complexity of aircraft automation, and works well for the ideal use case, but none of the transparency and predictability, nor the ability to turn it all off and "fly manually" when it fails.

Also, the original item on HN about this, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15297387 , was rather ironically accompanied by this one submitted around roughly the same time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15299165

The security aspect is not just a theoretical one.

jamesrcole• 9 years ago

[EDIT: to all the people downvoting this, what do you think is incorrect about either of the two points I made?]

the WiFi actually has 3 states: ... Most people have experienced all 3 states, but it seems Apple is under the impression that users are too stupid to know the difference between them.

...

Of course, the majority of iOS users have nowhere near that ability to memorise how this "automatic wireleas control" works

Hypocrisy much? It sounds like you're trying to seize any opportunity you can to bash Apple.

digi_owl3• 9 years ago

Shape the user has been Apple's go to mentality since the first Mac...

IBM5• 9 years ago

I just have to laugh at this entire thread. This is a clear example of Apple making a positive UX change for the vast majority of iOS users and it's completely invisible. Apple doesn't expect any user to "memorize" how this works. The support document is there to explain it to anyone who wants to know.

In exchange for triggering the OCD of some techies, Apple is going to save 99% of their customers time they would have spent troubleshooting why their Apple Watch or AirDrop or Handoff never work. And they'll probably save them money on their data bills as well.

This is a classic "Apple knows best" move and the only people who have a problem with it are the people who have always had a problem with Apple's SOP.

briandear2• 9 years ago

Use Siri. Or use airplane mode. This isn’t that hard.

What’s the use case where you want to completely kill WiFi but not Bluetooth for “security?” If I am in a security sensitive environment, I use airplane mode. That’s it’s purpose: to completely shut down all radios.

sumeno2• 9 years ago

Airplane mode also turns off cellular data.

Personally, I only want Bluetooth on when I'm intentionally using it, but having to go into settings to turn it on and off is cumbersome when I used to be able to toggle it from the control panel.

madeofpalk4• 9 years ago

Actually, Airplane mode (thankfully) no longer disables wifi.

dvcrn• 9 years ago

I hate this. I have a ton of wifi hotspots setup in the city, some of them require authentication, some of them don't. I leave work, mount my phone on my bike, "turn off" WiFi and cycle before realizing that nothing (like maps) is updating because I connected to a wifi point that needs authentication, or a point that is now far away because I already cycled by.

While cycling, I reach to my phone and switch it "off" again just to be again connected to some other access point at the next crossing.

I really hope for a setting in the next version so that off means off again.

new2993• 9 years ago

Right, I feel like this is a bigger issue than the privacy angle too.

For privacy/security, I feel like it's only really going to help to turn off all radios (airplane mode).

gervase• 9 years ago

Just so you know, this feature change also affects airplane mode; that is, when you turn on airplane mode, only the cellular modem turns off. The WiFi and Bluetooth radios remain on if they're currently connected to something, only turning off completely if not connected.

clouddrover7• 9 years ago

The workaround I use is to add Settings to the taskbar. If you force-press Settings it pops up a menu which allows you to get to the WiFi section directly. Turning off WiFi in Settings turns it off (you'll see the WiFi icon has a line through it in Control Centre).

pdimitar5• 9 years ago

Already doing this, it's basically half a second more work and I can't for the life of me understand why the people make so much drama about the new state of affairs.

jwong_2• 9 years ago

If you want to be off wifi why not just fully turn it off? It seems like you want it to be off for a long time. Going into settings to turn off the radio doesn't seem to be hugely laborious if you really do want it off for the entire ride.

cassowary8• 9 years ago

That's a really silly reply. There's nothing in the UI that tells me turning Wifi off in the control centre has a different meaning today than it had last week. It's not at all clear that turning it off in the Settings app will have a different result. Literally. You're obliging us to read someone's mind.

Moreover, going to the Settings app is laborious. There's a lot of stuff there. When you open it, you don't always "start from the start", so that pulling it up requires working out where it is in the app you are in order to navigate appropriately. Instead of focusing on the task of disabling wifi and going somewhere, you have to focus on the task of navigating an app. And also if you have a phone that wasn't bought yesterday, it will probably close some other app you were running because it's run out of RAM.

All so that some weird usecase I can't understand is available. This fellow is the only person who's described a usecase for disconnecting from wifi networks while leaving wifi on, insofar as leaving the radio on won't have upsetting results for him. But the feature doesn't work for him.

For me, sometimes I need my battery to last all day not just till dinner. I want the radio off.

I can't think of a non-technical/non-exceptional use that is benefited by this feature.

(NB. I quite like the idea that my wifi will spontaneously turn back on again when the battery is charged adequately, or at 5am or some such. It would've saved my data on numerous occasions. But that's a different feature that hasn't been implemented.)

fehrm• 9 years ago

That is what he did. It is a toggle. It is not a feature to force everyone to go to settings and click a kit more times. It is silly to claim that this is fine.

Ensorceled5• 9 years ago

The entire point is they thought they did turn it off. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

r00fus• 9 years ago

Can't you just turn off wifi's promiscuous mode?

I forget all wifi points except for any place I regularly go. LTE is good enough for cafes and the like.

rkangel• 9 years ago

I have a ton of wifi hotspots setup in the city

Presumably they are cycling past places they visit.

raimue• 9 years ago

It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013.

The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services.

Without commenting whether this is actually bad for security, articles on the matter should point out that Android phones are doing the same to raise awareness.

Edit: iOS enables WiFi on switching location, but re-enabling WiFi based on known locations is only a new feature of Android 8 Oreo. So for most Android users WiFi will at least not be turned back on automatically yet.

sumeno2• 9 years ago

That's not the iOS behavior. Toggling "off" just disconnects you from your current network, you will still connect to the next known network you come in contact with.

vmarsy• 9 years ago

In an article[1] about it, it clearly says you can disable it :

> This isn't going to sit well with everyone, and thankfully Google included a way to disable the feature, it's just a bit hidden.

Settings -> tap on the Wi-Fi -> tap on the menu button in the lower-right hand corner and select "Advanced", Uncheck "Scanning always available"

So sure, it's "a bit hidden" as the article points out, but , at least at the time the article was written, it's possible to disable this.

[1] https://www.cnet.com/how-to/stop-android-4-3-from-always-sca...

josteink8• 9 years ago

It is interesting to see how this is now suddenly perceived as an issue with iOS 11, while Android already introduced the same behavior with 4.3 in 2013.
The "off" setting these days only indicates that the device will not associate with any WiFi network, but it keeps the radio on for location services.

That's not true. This is provenly and factually false.

On All Android devices I've had (and I've had all version from 2.2. through to 8.0), turning wifi off causes lots of apps to nag you about turning it back on, exactly because of they wish to use location services.

icebraining3• 9 years ago

In the Advanced Settings, there's an option called "Scanning always available - Let Google's location service and other apps scan for networks, even when Wi-Fi is off".

As far as I know, the feature came disabled by default, and Android asked you the first time you turned off Wi-Fi if you wanted it on, so it's not really the same as iOS. On the other hand, some people have complained that upgrading to Android 6 has turned it on for them, but that might have been a bug.

In any case, this is a passive scan, it didn't connect you again after you moved places or during the night.

blub4• 9 years ago

In practice the wifi does whatever it wants. I toggle it off and then it's blue again 2 minutes later.

getaclue• 9 years ago

Is it to farfetched to say that this may have lead to a decrease in performance and battery life that I've noticed on my iPhone 7 plus? I mean... the phone feels... sluggish now. I don't know how else to say it.

Interesting time we live in friends.

It seems like you have to observe every application, every update, and monitor everything if you want your software to do what you expect it to do by using it. Passing it down to the user I suppose.

I used to assume that options and controls meant something for the user.

spc4762• 9 years ago

I'm resigned to the fact that any workflow I have will break with the next update. And if it's a web application, it will break with the next refresh (I'm looking at you, Google Maps!). It's the CADT model [1] writ large.

[1] https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html

devrandomguy• 9 years ago

Dude. That redirects to a picture of a scrotum in a cup, if you arrive with an HN referer header. I'm guessing you got pranked, lol.

davb2• 9 years ago

In general, iOS isn’t very friendly to users who favour 3G/4G over WiFi. I’ve got unlimited data on my LTE plan but very shaky WiFi at home. I can’t start an iCloud backup without WiFi and can’t download apps or updates over a certain size. And now WiFi miraculously turns itself back on after I turn it off in Control Center (as I’ve done for some time). If I want it off I’ve got to dig through Settings.

Changing defaults is bad enough, but not giving users a choice to change them back is incredibly frustrating, especially for a device with such a diverse range of users and use cases.

Apple (and Google, in their own way) seem to think they can push users towards a lowest common denominator use case. It just doesn’t work.

Take “Do Not Disturb While Driving” for example, which kept activating when I was taking the train. I don’t drive. I set the option to manual yet it still continued to activate whenever I moved above a certain speed. I feel like the folks at Apple have decided “well, since we all drive, it’s probably true of most people”.

andai• 9 years ago

I'm on unlimited data plan too, I was constantly running into the device refusing to do what I wanted because it was trying to protect me from imaginary "unexpected charges".

Strangely enough it was actually much nicer using my Android phone as the hotspot for my MacBook instead of the iPhone, because (recognizing the iPhone) it refused to auto-connect (probably those "charges" again eh?), and it would turn off the hotspot whenever the last person disconnected (so I'd have to keep my phone on all night, or be woken early by data-hungry housemates), probably for power saving.

I do understand these are sensible defaults for most people. But it stops being sensible when the defaults are inappropriate, get in the way constantly, and cannot be changed.

I guess their philosophy is something like, "Make 80% of people happy and totally disregard everyone else."

isolli• 9 years ago

I guess their philosophy is something like, "Make 80% of people happy and totally disregard everyone else."

Which probably makes sense financially...

digi_owl3• 9 years ago

Sadly the default assumption in IT these days is "users are dumb sheep". Its not just Apple or Google, MS is doing it as well, and I see more and more of it in the FOSS world.

dx0346• 9 years ago

Because if they changed it, 1% would be happy while the other 99% would complain about high charges. And $1000 phone bills because of an iCloud backup are the stories that go viral.

You can warn 3 times and people would still agree and complain later. Disallowing options that are costly for the vast majority is the only option. The number of iphone users with true unlimited data is probably <5%.

feld• 9 years ago

Because they are. Step out of your IT bubble.

pdimitar5• 9 years ago

Man, most people I happen to talk with casually don't even know the concept of Android and iOS. To them it's iPhone, Samsung, Google, LG, Sony, HTC etc. They have no idea that most non-iPhone devices share a similar OS. Nor do they care.

Also, most never even look at warning / question popup texts and impatiently press "Yes", "OK", "I agree" buttons.

Maybe calling them "dumb sheep" is too much but they aren't intellectually illuminated individuals either.

hesarenu2• 9 years ago

Apple (and Google, in their own way) seem to think they can push users towards a lowest common denominator use case. It just doesn’t work. - But this is not that case though. My non tech friends expect the wifi to off when its off. That would be the lowest common denominator.

digi_owl3• 9 years ago

This is a mentality that is making its way though the whole of consumer IT, even the FOSS world is not immune in their chase for marketshare...

jachee4• 9 years ago

If I want it off I’ve got to dig through Settings.

Or just say "Hey Siri, turn off WiFi."

micael_dias• 9 years ago

"Disconnected from 'WiFiNetwork'"

Aaargh20318• 9 years ago

Instead of messing with impractical workarounds, why not just fix your wifi ?

pdimitar5• 9 years ago

If I want it off I’ve got to dig through Settings.

Yeah: press Home button, tap Settings, tap Wi-Fi, tap the toggle.

A lot of digging indeed.

Like, come on.

mclehman• 9 years ago

In that case, why have the quick access menu at all?

myrandomcomment• 9 years ago

So I filed an RFE to stop bitching at me to turn on WiFi to improve location services —�- I guess I should have been more detailed :)

trowawee3• 9 years ago

This has been easily the most obnoxious change of iOS 11. It is super annoying to have to dismiss the list of available WiFi networks every single time I open my phone while walking around the city, no matter how many times I turn my WiFi off.

neotek5• 9 years ago

So why not just actually turn your wifi off? They didn't remove your ability to do so, just changed the way you do it.

trowawee3• 9 years ago

I mean, I can. It's just an annoying pain in the ass, now, rather than a simple toggle. Which was a stupid decision on Apple's part.

colejohnson663• 9 years ago

Turn off “Ask to join networks”

djrogers7• 9 years ago

Turn off ‘ask to join networks’ - mine been that ways for 10 years and it’s much better.

trowawee3• 9 years ago

I...don't want my phone to automatically connect to random open access points? I live in a city where there are at least 5 separate open networks available at nearly all times if you're just walking around, most of which I do not want to connect to.

cassowary8• 9 years ago

I hate both. If "ask" is on, it's constantly harassing me. If "ask" is off, I have to search hard to find the setting that lets me connect to a wifi network in a tool that also lets me change the language I'm using.

blub4• 9 years ago

This and removing buttons from the landscape keyboard.

mikeash• 9 years ago

All they had to do was implement it to cycle between three states: on, off-temporarily, and actually off.

Or label the damned things.

But no, they fundamentally changed how an important UI widget worked with no obvious indication that anything is different.

hn_throwaway_99• 9 years ago

This decision seems so fundamentally "anti-Apple". What happened to "it just works"? Heck, they could have even promoted a third option as being super innovative (not like it is, but marketing "Now with 'WiFi Safe Sleep!' or something like that would have been the old Apple way).

flukus2• 9 years ago

Even the work around is far from what I'd expect, so much hidden functionality behind long presses, 3D presses, swipes, etc from the company that used to think the right mouse button would confuse people. That's about as useful to the average person as putting the setting in an ini file.

Too2• 9 years ago

This decision is not anti-Apple at all, in fact it's Apple in a nutshell: We decide what's best for you, there should be no settings whatsoever to toggle any kind of preferred alternative option and we don't have to inform you what's going on because things obviously "just work".

cassowary8• 9 years ago

Yes. Apple used to be about empowering people. That's what ease of use was about. You can keep doing the same thing and you get the same result, but when you're ready you can finally press that button you've always ignored. You'll discover something new which you might want to undo. But that's fine too, because it's clear and obvious how to.

This meant they got a reputation for building easy-to-use tools.

This meant they got a reputation for building things for people who want their stuff to just work.

This meant that they believed their role should be to remove things that are ugly or powerful, hiding features.

This means that they're no longer building easy-to-use tools. You don't know what your phone is going to do any more. You can't predict if wifi is off or not. There's two ways to turn wifi off, one of them doesn't work. One of them allegedly works. There's no way to know this without reading documentation or relying on word of mouth.

There's a good reason to want wifi to only be pseudo-off, but there's other ways they could have implemented this feature that would have been empowering. They opted for this one not because it's the right option, but because they've given up on the spirit that made them great in the first place.

RTFM. It's the new motto of the Apple apologist. Soon we'll be saying "next year will be the year of Apple on the desktop".

josteink8• 9 years ago

hn_throwaway_99

Is really HN so hostile to statements critical of anything Apple does that you actually need to create a throwaway for it?

To me, that seems a bit extreme.

Edit: Not so throwaway after all then. Didn't consider checking.

madeofpalk4• 9 years ago

Eh. Apple has always been about making decisions for 'you' to resolve the bigger problems for the most amount of users. People who don't fall into that are just collateral.

mtgx4• 9 years ago

Exactly. What is it with Apple refusing to implement simple UX solutions like this one or the back fingerprint reader, which have been on Android phones for years?!

abalone• 9 years ago

Even if you are the fabled user who would turn your radios off and cripple your phone just to decrease your attack surface... like you’re walking into enemy territory... Wouldn’t you just use airplane mode?

nickhalfasleep• 9 years ago

Any software switch is liable to be compromised. If you need real certainty, put the device in a faraday sock.

djrogers7• 9 years ago

When I tap the WiFi or BY icons after a 3D Touch in either it says ‘not connected’ - it’s doesnt say off. That’s pretty self explanatory. When they’re off they are crossed out - also self explanatory.

The only real problem here is that this could have been explained to the user on first use.

omarforgotpwd• 9 years ago

You can still go into settings and turn it off for real. So whatever, makes sense to me. A lot of times the Wifi is bad so i want to disconnect, but I don’t care if the OS uses the wifi radio to talk to my apple watch or determine my location or whatever. This makes total sense to me because 99% of the time I use the control center I just want to disconnect from wifi network that isn’t working.

fulafel• 9 years ago

This is especially egregrious coming just after the wifi drivers RCE debacle (https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.fi/2017/10/over-air-vol-2...).

CodeWriter233• 9 years ago

But Broadcom fixed all their bugs this time. Really.

CodeWriter233• 9 years ago

Fake News. Your password hint is your password. Employing fascism to fight fascism. Off means on. This world is so full of shit.

hungerstrike• 9 years ago

I wonder what Steve Jobs would’ve said if this were a feature of other devices when he asked everybody to get off of Wi-Fi at WWDC?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lqfRx61BUg

icebraining3• 9 years ago

Probably the same thing, as this feature would do what he intended.

galeforcewinds• 9 years ago

Bob Pease once said, "my favorite programming language is solder." That this OS runs on closed, proprietary hardware means we either need a third-party solution, for purchasers to vote with their feet, or for the vendor to be brought to their senses. Perhaps this is a regulatory matter for the FCC to evaluate (now or later).

dx0346• 9 years ago

There is an alternative called Android where you have a choice of different manufacturers that all deliver somewhat different systems. And you can install your own OS on most devices. Android has more users than iOS so it's not that Apple would exploit their monopoly.

People can vote with their feet but they like what they get with an iPhone. The number of people that want to compile their own OS is very limited.

zestyping• 9 years ago

This is lying to the user about a security-critical setting. Plain and simple. It's a dishonest user interface and Apple should be ashamed.

foo1423• 9 years ago

I find it strange that no one here on hn is pointing out that maybe Apple has changed things due to the fact that they want your radio data...

Systemic33• 9 years ago

Apple technically does show the difference, but it is very very subtle, and most users would never notice unless told so.

Connected state = Blue background color

Disconnected state = Gray background color (Force Touch shows "Not Connected")

Off state = Gray background with gray slash across the icon (Force Touch shows "Off")

yoz-y• 9 years ago

I very much like the new system, I usually disable wifi either when it is too flaky or when I need to test something with an external network. Before when I forgot to put it back on my gps location would be slow and drain the battery, not everything is good. I do not use hotspots as my LTE is usually faster and more reliable (not to mention more secure).

However. It seems that there is a clear divide on how this button should work, and this usually means that there should be an option to set the behavior. Apple hates settings but I do believe that they will do something about this in a few releases.

hguhghuff• 9 years ago

Off means off.

Or it should.

calvinbhai• 9 years ago

Though I wish it was communicated better, I don’t know how they can do it. It’s good to know the difference.

I love this feature. Fringe wifi areas are where I turn wifi off, and often I’m not turning wifi back on. It affects cellular data consumption, location accuracy and also the battery.

I don’t understand how is this affecting the security of the device.

pdimitar5• 9 years ago

I have a lot of respect for EFF but this time they just do a blind hate.

Many people forget to re-enable Wi-Fi after they turned off due to a spotty connection. This feature saves them money.

The security-minded users have zero trouble going to the real control panel -- it's quite honestly one Home button press and one one tap away! -- and do the real disabling of Wi-Fi / Bluetooth.

Come on. This is not a grand conspiracy. It's an attempt to make all sides happy. I agree it could've been communicated better -- that's very obvious -- but everything above that is just Apple hate.

Waterluvian• 9 years ago

Every week at least a few times I turn off WiFi because it's interfering with something I want to look up quickly. But then I get home and realise later I've been watching YouTube over 3G.

I like the feature, I just want a three state switch in the UI.

Xeoncross• 9 years ago

Just an added thought. I question the possible health side-effects of having a transmitter (even a small-power one) 14hrs a day on my hip or in my shirt pocket 2 inches from my baby's brain.

I learned the dangers of hi-power devices even at 10ft away - I prefer to turn off the wifi/bluetooth (at least) when possible.

Apple has made airplane mode really easy and quick until now, even when the phone is locked.

torstenvl• 9 years ago

I'm really surprised to see so many on HN defending this behavior change, when it objectively violates traditional UI/UX principles and Apple's own HIG. The principle of least astonishment is there for a reason: as Apple itself says, iOS interfaces must "incorporate[] features and behaviors in ways people expect."

The toggle is too close to previous versions to have a different behavior. I'm not opposed to the behavior itself, necessarily, and it seems like some people might find it useful. But implementing it as a bait-and-switch was the wrong call.

calebm• 9 years ago

No means no Apple.

vinniejames• 9 years ago

This has been driving me crazy. Couldn’t figure out why my WiFi kept turning back on. Not to mention, the first two iOS 11 releases broke the “Phone” app, leaving me unable to make actual phone calls.

Hello Pixel 2

manigandham• 9 years ago

All Apple had to do was make a 3rd stage icon/look to have: on, temp disconnected, off. Cycle through with a tap or 3D touch. Everyone's happy.

balthamael• 9 years ago

Apple is for "sheep", what else is new?

Like removing the headphone jack to underhandedly force people into Bluetooth headphones(with Apple conveniently owning Beats, who has the biggest market share of aforementioned headphones) and insultingly excusing it with "innovation" and non-reasons. Yet people will crawl out of the woodwork to arbitrarily defend their phone brand, which is apparently really important for their identity.

iOS 11's Misleading "Off-Ish" Setting for Radios Is Bad for User Security

Related Stories